Trump's Epstein flip

Speaker 2 While I want to see every single name released so that these women don't have to live in fear and intimidation, which is something I've had a small taste of in just the past few days.

Speaker 4 That's longtime MAGA warrior Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has now become a thorn in Trump's side.

Speaker 4 Today in Washington, the House finally votes on a petition for the Justice Department to release documents related to Jeffrey Epstein's case.

Speaker 2 Watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart.

Speaker 4 Trump has tried to ignore the issue for months.

Speaker 3 In July, he said the Epstein files were a Democratic hoax.

Speaker 5 Some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net, and so they try and do the Democrats' work.

Speaker 4 But in recent days, Trump has changed his tune. Coming up on Today Explain, how the vote over the Epstein files is rocking Maggle World to its core.

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Speaker 4 This morning, I caught up with Washington Post Congress reporter Kadia Goba, one of the best source reporters on the Hill.

Speaker 4 She had just come from a press conference held by three of the lawmakers who have recently pushed the White House to release the Epstein files.

Speaker 4 The press conference also featured victims of Jeffrey Epstein who spoke passionately about the abuse they endured and urged Congress to pass the measure compelling the Justice Department to act.

Speaker 8 Well, as your listeners probably know, this is the day that the discharge petition will be on the floor for a vote, which means every member of Congress in the House gets to vote on compelling the Justice Department to release files for Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 8 Right now, as I was walking into the Capitol, there were, I'd say, a couple of hundred reporters,

Speaker 8 bystanders outside listening to a press interview held by Representatives RoConna

Speaker 8 and Thomas Massey and Marjorie Taylor Greene, where they are featuring survivors of Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 9 We fought the president, the attorney general, the FBI director, the speaker of the house, and the vice president to get this win.

Speaker 3 So today is Epstein Day on the Hill. The discharge position to release the Epstein vows, or at least part of them, is the rarest thing in Washington these days, bipartisan.

Speaker 3 As you mentioned, this rarely happens. And part of the reason it's happening in this case is because it seems like an instance of Democrats and Republicans coming together.

Speaker 3 Can you tell me how that happened?

Speaker 8 Okay, so, and to be clear, there are two efforts that are occurring right now to compel the DOJ to release files. They have essentially garnered three additional Republicans who happen to be women,

Speaker 8 I want to point out, to sign on to their discharge petition. And all of the Democrats have obviously signed on, essentially to push the administration to release these files.

Speaker 8 Those three Republicans are Representative Marjorie Taylor Green from Georgia.

Speaker 2 These women have fought the most horrific fight that no woman should have to fight and they did it by banding together and never giving up.

Speaker 8 Lauren Bobert from Colorado.

Speaker 11 Of course we want answers.

Speaker 10 No one is satisfied with what has been received or lack thereof.

Speaker 13 No one is satisfied with the rollout of this.

Speaker 8 And Nancy Mace

Speaker 8 from South Carolina.

Speaker 15 This is really bigger than Jeffrey Epstein. This is a very symbolic vote to me for every woman and girl across the country who's been abused, that they represent us.

Speaker 8 All three of them have spoken about this being the right thing to do. And, you know, Nancy Mace,

Speaker 8 she has had claims with sexual abuse herself and, you know, she's made a point to say that. But I want to point out that this three women, just three women, signed on.

Speaker 8 And there was even pressure from the administration for them to get off of it, but it didn't deter them.

Speaker 3 These are now MAGA lawmakers who are acting independently of Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 What do you think this reveals about the current state of his relationship to his own party, considering that, as you mentioned, this is one of the rare instances of them pushing him?

Speaker 8 You know, Asset, it's hard to tell if there's any,

Speaker 8 if this, if this is going to be a trend, to be honest with you.

Speaker 8 We saw the public display or fallout between Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Speaker 2 I was called a traitor by a man that I fought for five, no, actually six years for.

Speaker 8 I don't know if that's isolated.

Speaker 8 I am not totally convinced that people will just start doing discharge petitions or signaling that they want to push back against the administration in a full-throated way.

Speaker 3 This could be a singular issue.

Speaker 8 It could be. I mean, the irony of all of this is that Trump came out the other day and said that he wanted members of Congress to support the measure.

Speaker 17 House Republicans should vote to release the Epstein files because we have nothing to hide and it's time to move on from this Democratic hoax perpetrated by the radical left lunatics in order to deflect the great success of the Republican Party.

Speaker 8 A lot of people think that that is probably

Speaker 8 has everything to do with him seeing the writing on the wall and acknowledging that, okay, this is going to be a big vote against what he has said or called a hoax.

Speaker 3 Right. So it's been reported as Tony Trump changing his mind and endorsing it.

Speaker 3 But what you're saying is this could largely be him getting ahead of something that was already inevitable, considering the Republicans who were planning to vote for.

Speaker 8 Yeah, like I said, the writing is on the wall instead.

Speaker 3 So, okay, so what comes next? Does this mean that all of a sudden this trove of documents is going to become public?

Speaker 8 No, so that is the tricky part.

Speaker 8 This needs to, because it is a bill, it needs to go to the Senate. And then, guess what? It needs to be signed by the president.

Speaker 3 The president who doesn't necessarily love the idea.

Speaker 8 Right. But again,

Speaker 8 now he's on the winning side. So, you know,

Speaker 8 now it'll be.

Speaker 8 It'll be up to him. Well, first of all, they need to get it through the Senate.

Speaker 8 Senator Thune, the majority leader over there, has not indicated that he would do that. But we already see pressure

Speaker 8 building up.

Speaker 8 One senator wrote a letter compelling him.

Speaker 8 I think Lisa Makowski, who's a Republican out of Alaska, she has said, you know, like kind of applauded the House and said they did a good job and she wants him to put the vote on the floor.

Speaker 8 So I think it probably will get there. However,

Speaker 8 the tricky part is when it gets to the

Speaker 8 president's desk, whether he, what he does. Does he, you know, does he veto it or not?

Speaker 8 Thomas Massey in the House, who authored the discharge petition, has said he wanted an overwhelming amount of support.

Speaker 9 I'm hoping to get a veto-proof majority on this legislature.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 in that event, if Trump does decide to veto it, it'll come back to the House where it originated, and they'll have to basically override the veto.

Speaker 3 It also seems as if some of this is is at the Justice Department's discretion.

Speaker 3 I saw Marjorie Taylor Greene mention how even if this petition goes through, it's still up to the Justice Department about how much of these files will be released. Is that right?

Speaker 8 That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 But the real test will be will the Department of Justice release the files? Or will it all remain tied up in investigations?

Speaker 8 And remember, this is Trump's Justice Department. So his discretion is their discretion is essentially his discretion.

Speaker 8 So it's, you know, it's not clear what they'll do, what the timing is going to look like on that as well.

Speaker 8 But I have to, I just want to point out, you know, like I said, this separate effort, some of the more salacious things that have been coming out have come from the estate.

Speaker 8 And that is something that James Comer and the House Oversight has been engineering.

Speaker 18 We're in the process of uploading those documents for full transparency so everyone in America can see those documents.

Speaker 3 So this might not be the only means of seeing the scope of these documents.

Speaker 8 No. James Comer has compelled the Justice Department, but he has also

Speaker 8 subpoenaed the estate. And the estate has some personal things, I imagine.

Speaker 8 It's not clear if they were even ever turned over to the Justice Department, but

Speaker 8 we will see more information coming out of the estate as well. which should be helpful.

Speaker 3 You mentioned how rare it was to see any daylight between the Republican caucus and Congress and with the White House.

Speaker 3 And part of the reason that Trump acted here is because members of the GOP were pressured by their own base. Now, is this only happening with the Epstein files?

Speaker 3 Because on this show, we covered other areas of disagreement within the Mago orbit.

Speaker 3 I'm thinking about criticism of his action in Venezuela or criticism of his immigration policy, respect to H-1B visas. When you're covering Republicans in Congress,

Speaker 3 do you hear any riffs with the White House on other issues? Or has that mostly been focused on the Epstein files?

Speaker 8 You know, it's a great question. I do wonder if this will spark or highlight more discrepancies between

Speaker 8 the MAGA base and Donald Trump. You know, recently there's been some pushback from MAGA World about H-1B visas, right? Which Trump is in support of.

Speaker 19 Does that mean the H-1B visa thing will not be a big priority for your administration?

Speaker 19 Because if you want to raise wages for American workers, you can't flood the country with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of foreign workers.

Speaker 5 We also do have to bring in talent when there's plenty of talent.

Speaker 20 Trump needs to get out of his bubble and back on the ground listening to the American people who elected him to work for us. His H-1B comments show how out of touch with the base he's become.

Speaker 8 So I do wonder if that will inflame some of those,

Speaker 8 you know, frackers in the party to, you know, compel regular voters or voters to become even louder because they saw this work.

Speaker 8 I don't know if that's the case, but there is a possibility, obviously, that

Speaker 8 people will appreciate their power. And we could see MAGA voters compelling their lawmakers to do something on H-1B visas.

Speaker 8 And who knows, a Democrat could throw another discharge petition on the floor. So it's kind of a wait-and-see game, but I do wonder if that will amplify other fractures in the party.

Speaker 4 When we're back, the Epstein files themselves. Already, there's been a lot of important people getting named and blamed.

Speaker 16 Are we about to see more?

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Speaker 4 So, Today Explained is back. I'm Estead Herndon.
We have Jacob Shamsian, a business insider here.

Speaker 4 He's been writing about Jeffrey Epstein since 2019, following every twist and turn, even beyond the halls of Congress.

Speaker 4 Last week, the House Oversight Committee released a trove of documents from Jeffrey Epstein's estate. So, what was in those files?

Speaker 1 So, this is an email exchange between Gillen Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein, and this is at a time this 2008 and 2007 Florida investigation is in the past.

Speaker 24 Jeffrey Epstein went to jail just before 10 this morning. He pleaded guilty in open court.

Speaker 24 He agreed to serve a total of 18 months in the Palm Beach detention facility, 12 for felony solicitation of prostitutes, and an additional six for procuring persons under 18 for prostitution.

Speaker 12 He could have faced life in prison for allegations with underage girls, but the prosecutor in the case, Alex Acosta, struck a more lenient deal.

Speaker 15 He takes a non-prosecution

Speaker 15 agreement and shuts in.

Speaker 1 There are all these civil lawsuits from victims trying to overturn this agreement because they weren't informed of this settlement and non-prosecution agreements between Jeffrey Epstein and prosecutors.

Speaker 25 Epstein's victims, Jane Doe 1 and Jane Doe 2, allege federal prosecutors entered into an agreement without their knowledge and then covered it up until just days before Epstein entered his plea in court.

Speaker 1 Also at the same time, Virginia Jeffrey starts speaking to media about her time with Epstein and the abuse that she endured.

Speaker 23 I was trafficked to other billionaires. I was trafficked to

Speaker 23 politicians, professors, even royalty.

Speaker 1 So Jeffrey Epstein is in the middle of this firestorm that, you know, is really just beginning. In this email to Maxwell, who's also under scrutiny, he refers to Trump as a dog who hasn't barked.

Speaker 26 Okay, this first email starts with an email from Jeffrey Epstein on Saturday, April 2nd, 2011.

Speaker 26 He emails Ghalain.

Speaker 22 Maxwell saying, I want you to realize that that dog that hasn't barked is Trump.

Speaker 1 What does that mean exactly? I don't know.

Speaker 4 The dog that hasn't barked. Interesting.

Speaker 1 And so, you know,

Speaker 1 a lot of people

Speaker 1 take that as well as a couple other references to Trump in the emails to mean that maybe Trump knew something about what what was going on, which Trump has, of course, denied.

Speaker 4 Over the weekend, we saw the internet explode over a particular email that I want to ask you about.

Speaker 4 It came out in this latest trove, and I think it speaks to the vagueness that you're talking to, specifically when it comes to Trump.

Speaker 4 Now, in this email, Jeffrey Epstein's brother told him to ask former Trump advisor Steve Bannon whether Russian President Vladimir Putin, quote, has the photos of Trump blowing Bubba.

Speaker 4 Now, I am sure you saw this on all the feeds this weekend with a lot of guesses about who or what that might mean. Have you guys heard about the Bubba theory? We have to talk about the Bubba email.

Speaker 27 Donald, who's Bubba?

Speaker 27 I don't know. Yes, you do.

Speaker 28 It's Bill Clinton, right?

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 28 And is it true that you blew on his saxophone?

Speaker 29 Lil Diddy about Bubba and Trump.

Speaker 29 Two political rivals that got it on when the the lights were off.

Speaker 4 What do we know?

Speaker 14 Look, I don't know.

Speaker 1 If you look at other emails between Mark Epstein and Jeffrey Epstein, there are a lot of like trading memes. They're very jokey.

Speaker 1 I think, you know, a lot of people thought, does Bubba mean Bill Clinton? Because Bill Clinton is referred to as Bubba in other contexts

Speaker 1 with Jeffrey Epstein. I did ask Mark about this.
Who is Bubba? What's going on here? And all he would tell me is that Bubba is not Bill Clinton.

Speaker 4 Jeffrey Epstein's brother clarified to you that he was not meaning Bill Clinton.

Speaker 1 Yes, in that email, he did not mean to suggest that Vladimir Purden has photos of Donald Trump performing oral sex on Bill Clinton. But beyond that, he wouldn't explain what that remark was.

Speaker 5 I did not have sexual relations with Epstein.

Speaker 8 President of the United States.

Speaker 4 This group of docs came from the estate, though, right? What does that mean in terms of the origin? And what can we take away from that?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so I think that's a really important thing to remember.

Speaker 1 What the House Oversight Committee has been releasing over the past uh week and also before than the months before are stuff that they've subpoenaed from jeffrey epstein's estate uh we exam for example got a copy of that infamous 2003 birthday book from the house oversight committee uh with a purported trump letter this weird gross image of a woman with donald trump's signature where the pubes would be trump is denied i don't do drugs that originally came from the estate but what when people talk about the epstein files i mean the definition of epstein files has changed over the over the years but they're generally referring to what the Justice Department has.

Speaker 1 The Justice Department, you know, when they arrested Epstein in 2019, they executed search warrants in his mansion in Manhattan and in the U.S. and his home in the U.S.
Virgin Islands.

Speaker 21 Today, we announce the unsealing of sex trafficking charges against Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 21 The victims, all underage girls at the time of the alleged conduct, were given hundreds of dollars in cash after each encounter, either by Epstein or by one of Epstein's employees.

Speaker 13 His mansion on East 71st Street was raided early Sunday morning as agents hauled out multiple bags of evidence from disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 1 They took like something like 70 electronic devices, iPads, phones, computers, hard drives, and they have all this stuff.

Speaker 1 And that stuff that the Justice Department still has in its possession, we still haven't seen it. This discharge petition is about releasing those DOJ Epstein files.

Speaker 1 So, you know, the estate stuff is is really interesting and really amazing, but it's, I think, nothing compared to what the DOJ has.

Speaker 4 So, when we think about the Epstein files, are we talking about one set of documents from the DOJ?

Speaker 4 Or what is it to mean?

Speaker 1 The way I think about it, you know, this is stuff that Epstein Estate has. There's certainly these DOJ documents seized by the FBI.
There might also be other documents the FBI has.

Speaker 1 For example, there's some victims who've said that they've called the FBI as early as the 1980s or 1990s talking about how they were abused by Jeffrey Epstein, and they were ignored.

Speaker 1 So maybe there's sort of documents in the FBI showing how they screwed this up.

Speaker 1 There's

Speaker 1 certain underlying records related to the investigation of Epstein's death. You know, I've filed FOIA requests for all this stuff.

Speaker 1 I know some other journalists have filed FOIA requests, and I've gotten nothing. It looks like the House subpoenaed the DOJ, and they've gotten nothing.

Speaker 1 And hopefully the DOJ will soon be releasing them.

Speaker 4 So we're not talking about one set of documents more so than an entire maybe treasure chest coming from different sources throughout the federal government agencies investigating them.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Who knows? Maybe also intelligence agencies, the federal aviation

Speaker 1 agencies might have flight records. There's a ton of stuff.

Speaker 4 You know, the investigative reporter, Julie K.

Speaker 4 Brown, who broke a lot of these Epstein stories, said recently that she thinks some of these leaks might be a message sent by Gillen Maxwell to show her leverage over President Trump, that these leaks might actually be coming from her.

Speaker 30 And to be honest with you, I suspect they're coming from Maxwell's camp. And I do suspect that the whole thing that happened with Prince Andrew losing his titles,

Speaker 30 I suspect that that was a message that was coming from her camp saying, you know, we have this stuff. We have information.

Speaker 4 What do you make of that theory? Do you think that some of these leaks could be related to figures like Glenn trying to get their message out there?

Speaker 1 Sure. I'm I'm not so sure about that.
I mean, you know, I respect Julia enormously. I talk to her about this stuff sometimes, and she obviously knows a lot.

Speaker 1 I don't know

Speaker 1 if that is what's happening, if like sort of if the idea is like Gilen is sort of trying to send a message to Trump saying, you know, I have info on you and, you know, you better pardon me or else.

Speaker 1 I mean, certainly like this email that we just saw with the dog who hasn't barked that came from the Epsen Estate, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, is the Epsen Estate working with Gilen Maxwell behind the scenes to facilitate this stuff?

Speaker 1 I don't really see it. But, you know, certainly Gilan Maxwell has been moved to a Kushier prison.
There's no doubt about that. There are a lot of reports that she's getting really good treatment.

Speaker 1 You know, is it about something that Gilan knows?

Speaker 1 You know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 That's one of the big questions.

Speaker 4 You know, as we heard earlier in the show, Congress is likely to release more files.

Speaker 4 What are we, do we have any sense of expectation of what could be coming out in these files?

Speaker 1 I would expect to see more emails and text messages like the stuff that we've just seen now. I think I would be personally really interested in seeing a lot more financial records.

Speaker 1 We really don't have a great accounting. We know some pieces about how he made his money, the $630 million estate that he left with.

Speaker 1 And some internal JP Morgan documents we've seen in litigation show that

Speaker 1 his accounts

Speaker 1 had over a billion dollars in transactions.

Speaker 4 And that number is just enormous, hard to wrap my head around and uh i think sort of answering that first how did that money get there and where did it go is really going to lead to the other uh answers this moment obviously marks a pivot from trump and the white house asking republicans to support this discharge position do you think this will set a new narrative around the epstein files can there be a

Speaker 4 is there ever a moment of a smoking gun or something that turns the page on this issue issue?

Speaker 1 To me, I think, you know, the whole idea of the DOJ releasing all these files, this is just an enormous amount of material. We're going to see a lot of documents for a long time.

Speaker 1 Personally, I think this is sort of like a JFK assassination

Speaker 1 type thing where we're just going to be talking about this for decades. There's going to be a ton of records people will go through for decades.

Speaker 1 People will come up with conspiracy theories and there'll be more of some more legitimate reporting.

Speaker 1 I just think this is just one of those things that's going to be sort of of a big deal in American history.

Speaker 4 Jacob Champsian of the Business Insider. Today's show was produced by Miles Bryan and Peter Balinon Rosen and edited by Miranda Kennedy.

Speaker 4 It was fact-checked by Ariana Aspuru and Melissa Hirsch, and our engineers are Patrick Boyd and Adrian Lilly. I'm Estead Hernton, and this is Today Explain.

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