Devil's breath | The Gas Man Ep 6

Transcript

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Speaker 22 Tortoise.

Speaker 23 It's very funny. We have here Carnival, you know.

Speaker 22 There's something I didn't tell you about Peter Valiscick.

Speaker 23 It's not

Speaker 23 sacrificed and not ordained.

Speaker 22 Back when we first went to meet him in Siegberg and he came out of his house to greet us.

Speaker 23 I'm only doing for you. Oh, I see.

Speaker 22 So it's kind of fancy dress.

Speaker 23 I must.

Speaker 22 He was wearing bright orange monks' robes over the top of his tracksuit.

Speaker 22 He said he'd put them on, especially for us.

Speaker 23 And this is what's only for you. Okay.

Speaker 22 Up the stairs, in his office, the room was hazy, covered in a stifling cloud of incense.

Speaker 22 And he had a YouTube video set up, playing from his computer.

Speaker 22 Eventually, Claudia, who's producing this series, had to ask him to turn it off so we could hear each other.

Speaker 22 And actually, that's where my interview with Peter Valiscick started, with his conversion to a new religion. Maybe we can start.
When did your interest in Buddhism begin?

Speaker 23 This was

Speaker 23 one year, one and a half year ago, because my

Speaker 23 wife kicked me out.

Speaker 23 And then I said, what shall I do?

Speaker 23 Yeah, I have some

Speaker 23 Buddhist monks who are German. And then I said, perhaps it's something for me.
And then I...

Speaker 22 was reading the book. He tells me he's been accepted as a trainee monk.

Speaker 22 That That means normally he wears white robes, not the orange fancy dress shop ones he's wearing now.

Speaker 22 He talks me through the little Buddha statues that clutter his desk.

Speaker 23 This is

Speaker 23 most important.

Speaker 23 This is a green Buddha. This is in

Speaker 23 the temple where the

Speaker 23 king is.

Speaker 22 I can't help but notice there are other religious symbols in the room too. Can I ask you? I see above your desk you have many Orthodox icons.

Speaker 23 This is a very famous one.

Speaker 22 He's pointing to a gilded image of a very stern-looking Jesus.

Speaker 23 He's looking always

Speaker 23 angry to me when I'm looking to

Speaker 23 Buddhist.

Speaker 23 No,

Speaker 23 he's looking angry when I'm looking looking to porno.

Speaker 22 He leans into the mic to tell me that Jesus is angry with him, not because he's a Buddhist, but because he's been watching porn.

Speaker 22 When I probe a bit about how his newfound faith fits in with the rest of his life, his lucrative chemical sales to Iran and his trade with other sanctioned countries, it doesn't go down well.

Speaker 23 What past? What what I have past.

Speaker 23 I'm Buddhist now. I'm not interested in the past.

Speaker 22 I can't help wondering how much he's told the monks.

Speaker 22 And what about when you go to the Buddhist temple with your ordination?

Speaker 23 Yeah.

Speaker 22 Do they ask you to talk at all about your past and things that you've done in the past and whether you feel okay?

Speaker 23 Yeah, this is a sign that you have not an idea from Buddhism because in Buddhism there is no past.

Speaker 22 It's a repeated refrain throughout the interview that whatever he might have been involved in before, it doesn't matter now because his past doesn't exist.

Speaker 22 It's quite the pivot and a convenient one at that.

Speaker 22 So I have to admit that at first, when he tells me he's going to be travelling to Thailand in a few days to study as a monk, I miss the real significance of what he's saying.

Speaker 22 I dismiss it as a distraction.

Speaker 22 It's only when I'm back in London that I remember something he said.

Speaker 23 It's still open the warrant.

Speaker 23 Really?

Speaker 22 Yes. I searched.

Speaker 23 In America, it's one

Speaker 23 criminal, still dead criminal.

Speaker 22 And Claudia and I finally connect the dots.

Speaker 25 The last time he was arrested for travel was more than 10 years ago, but he was arrested. Been arrested twice.

Speaker 25 What's different about this trip to Thailand is that Thailand has an extradition treaty.

Speaker 22 That means if the US asked them to, the authorities in Bangkok could put him on a plane to face justice back in America.

Speaker 22 When we realise the stakes, we try and work out what flight Peter Valischek's on.

Speaker 25 So that's one from Frankfurt that left a couple of hours ago from Germany

Speaker 25 and is currently on flight. It's currently, let's see where it is.

Speaker 25 It's currently right over Iran.

Speaker 23 Is it? Yeah.

Speaker 22 That's a bit of irony in that one.

Speaker 22 And figure out what might happen to him when he lands. We have no way of knowing whether the Thai authorities will bother with an old man.
I wonder how we can find out if he's picked up.

Speaker 22 I start to wonder: in turning to a religion he believes absolves him entirely of his past, could he actually be inadvertently walking himself right back into custody?

Speaker 22 I'm Chloe Hajimathay. From Tortoise, this is The Gas Man.

Speaker 22 Episode 6, Devil's Breath.

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Speaker 22 Oh wow, so this is the temple. God, it's gorgeous.

Speaker 22 It's very ornate with kind of gilded gold and red ceiling, lots of flourishes.

Speaker 22 There's dragons or when I set out trying to understand Peter Valaschek's story, I knew it might take me around the world, but I did not expect to end up in a Thai Buddhist temple in the leafy London suburb of Wimbledon.

Speaker 22 So there's a load of monks down there in the garden wearing orange robes.

Speaker 22 Oh it looks like they're preparing, looks like they're preparing lunch for the order or something.

Speaker 22 They're wiping down tables. I'm here because maybe Peter Valasczek's right.
Maybe I just don't know enough about Buddhism to understand his new approach to life.

Speaker 22 Can he really expect to live out the rest of his days in Thailand without ever having to engage with his past? Or is the gas man just playing another one of his games?

Speaker 23 Oh, that's him, the guy there in

Speaker 22 the orange robe.

Speaker 23 Hello, are you Dr.

Speaker 22 Lau?

Speaker 29 Yes, I am, yes.

Speaker 22 Hi, I'm Chloe from the channel.

Speaker 29 Really good to meet you.

Speaker 22 So, I've come to speak with the abbot in charge here.

Speaker 22 He's a slender man man with a shaved head and glasses, and his orange robe is the real deal.

Speaker 29 Thank you.

Speaker 22 And there's someone else that Dr. Lau's invited to join us.

Speaker 30 Robert.

Speaker 29 Panyavashiro, then his name.

Speaker 22 But you called him Venerable Bob.

Speaker 30 Yeah, well, we're all venerable one way or another.

Speaker 22 Like Peter Valischek, Venerable Bob is also in his 80s and came to Buddhism later in life.

Speaker 30 I learned a date at 68 to 72.

Speaker 22 He's unusual, it seems. Dr.
Lau tells me they don't often admit older people as trainee monks. So, how old were you when you were all dead? 13.

Speaker 23 13.

Speaker 23 You were a child.

Speaker 29 I became a monk at 8 or 20 after seven years training as a Buddhist novice. That's normal.
That's normal of our tradition. That's very normal.
Yes. You have to become a genuine practice.

Speaker 29 You have to be real. You have to really want to be, not just photo opportunity.

Speaker 22 I tell them about Peter Valaschek, his arrest, his current life in Germany and his future trip to Thailand.

Speaker 22 I can't tell them much about the monastery he's planning to visit.

Speaker 22 He told us he was planning on staying there for a few months, maybe even longer, and that he's been in touch with the head monk for a while.

Speaker 22 I'd love to know how he's presented himself and what he's told them about how he's made his money.

Speaker 22 But there are thousands of temples in Thailand that accept foreigners, so I can only share what Peter Valice

Speaker 22 told me.

Speaker 22 I think it's fair to say Dr. Lau and Venerable Bob are a little surprised and a bit suspicious that he's even been taken on as a trainee.

Speaker 30 80-year-olds are not normally accepted for many reasons. One of them will be, this person is going to be ill.
It's going to be a drain on our resources continuously. Is he doing this on purpose?

Speaker 30 Is this a cheap, no, whatever?

Speaker 29 Looking for the prayer for someone to look after you because you are not well. So they have to check everything if you're capable to become a monk.

Speaker 22 It takes years of dedication they tell me. thousands of hours spent in silent meditation and adherence to hundreds of rules, including canons or precepts for how to live.

Speaker 30 It's not just a couple of hours doing a GCSE or three hours doing a A-level. It's rather more difficult than that.

Speaker 29 In the morning, you take five precepts, yeah?

Speaker 29 In the five-piece, number five.

Speaker 22 These precepts include refraining from using harsh or harmful speech, from harming any living being, and from drink or drugs.

Speaker 22 It's something I talked about with Peter Walaszczek back when I was in Germany, Although his take seemed a little different.

Speaker 23 Because Abbott,

Speaker 23 this is the first man in the monastery, said two things

Speaker 23 you should not do. Drinking alcohol, well, then I was discussing with him because he's one or two beer, no problem.
Okay.

Speaker 22 You're also supposed to remain celibate.

Speaker 22 Again, that didn't seem seem too high on his priority list. In fact, he told me he had offered to take the abbot at his monastery Viagra pills.

Speaker 30 He said,

Speaker 23 what is a blue tablet? I said, yeah,

Speaker 23 helping you a little bit. And he said, oh, you must, when you come, you must bring me one or two packages.
I said, you're an abbot, you should not do it. No, I'm not for me.
It's only for my monks.

Speaker 23 I said, okay.

Speaker 22 It does sound like Peter Valischek has managed to find himself a pretty relaxed abbot.

Speaker 22 Dr. Lau and Venerable Bob say this is the type of thing you see sometimes.
People who go to a monastery in Thailand do their precepts in the morning and party at night.

Speaker 29 Yeah, after finish the five and seven evening, they go for the party.

Speaker 30 This is life wherever you go. People are like that.

Speaker 29 Like a lip service.

Speaker 30 You know, you're not real.

Speaker 29 That's right, for sure. That's what they say.
You do anyway.

Speaker 23 The ego is in it.

Speaker 22 At first, I have to say I thought Peter Valischek's conversion might be a sign of a guilty conscience.

Speaker 22 But when I pushed him on whether he had any regrets, he told me again and again that his conscience was totally clear.

Speaker 22 My soul is white, he said.

Speaker 22 Do you worry about her? No.

Speaker 22 No.

Speaker 23 What have I done? Bad things.

Speaker 22 Everybody has things in their life they regret or.

Speaker 23 I didn't kill my wife.

Speaker 23 Therefore I have not done any bad things.

Speaker 22 It's not a very high bar he set himself.

Speaker 22 In any case, he seems to think his conversion to Buddhism absolves him of any past transgressions.

Speaker 30 And someone who's 81 telling you what he's told you obviously really either understands it so thoroughly that he can manipulate it, or he's jumped to a conclusion.

Speaker 30 And obviously, he's determinedly interpreted meaningfulness and the moment, living in the moment, in a way which is perverse.

Speaker 30 Totally perverse.

Speaker 30 If he's got this far, he can't be a fool. If he's evaded the authorities, he can't be a fool.
And then I'm going to be a monk and the

Speaker 30 world has no past.

Speaker 31 Yeah, right, okay.

Speaker 22 The question is, whether he'll manage to keep evading the authorities when he lands in Thailand.

Speaker 22 For what it's worth, I don't think Peter Valicek's a fool. Quite the opposite.
I think he's a smooth operator.

Speaker 22 Someone who's managed to wriggle out from the grasp of law enforcement in several different countries and so far come out pretty much unscathed.

Speaker 22 And maybe you're thinking, what's the big deal? He's just one man, and this was decades ago.

Speaker 22 Does it really matter if he never takes responsibility for what he did or pays for his crimes? And to that, My answer is, yes, I think it really does.

Speaker 22 Because if people like Peter Valaschek aren't held to account, if someone can get rich selling lethal chemicals without any idea or control over how they'll be used, then what's to stop others?

Speaker 22 Have you ever had any threats? To you?

Speaker 24 Several times. Several times.

Speaker 24 Several times.

Speaker 32 You know, none of us

Speaker 32 feel a

Speaker 32 safe, comfortable life here in Europe.

Speaker 22 Cambys Ghaffouri is an exile from Iran. Back home, he was studying to be a veterinarian and then a pharmacist.
But as a student, he was caught protesting and was forced to leave the country.

Speaker 22 These days, he's a journalist living in Finland. Iran makes journalists out of its citizens.

Speaker 32 Makes journalists out of veterinarians.

Speaker 22 As a pharmacist and a journalist, Khambiz Ghaffur is in a unique position when it comes to reporting on chemical weapons.

Speaker 22 And bizarrely, his incomplete studies as a vet have also come in useful for one story in particular.

Speaker 32 We came to know that a department of Imam Hussein University bought a medicine called medatomidine.

Speaker 32 It's a sedative, you know. In veterinary medicine, we use it as a pre-anesthesia agent.

Speaker 22 For like, for like cats and dogs?

Speaker 24 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 32 And bigger animals.

Speaker 22 No big deal. Only the university didn't offer any kind of veterinary or medical course.
And it's run by the Iranian state.

Speaker 22 Kanbiz Garfuri says he watched the anesthetic, also known by the brand name Dometor, travel from Finland to China before it ended up in Iran, that way avoiding EU sanctions.

Speaker 32 So a middle person, a Chinese person, bought Dometors and then sold it to Iranians. You know, they want to be hidden.
But Iranian regime, they know very well how to transfer millions.

Speaker 32 They have a network of companies under several names. That's what's going on.

Speaker 22 It's the same strategy Peter Valisek used in the 80s when he pretended his chemicals were heading to non-sanctioned countries before sending them on to Iran.

Speaker 22 Last year, academic papers from that university in Tehran that Khanbiz Gharfuri was monitoring were leaked online by hackers.

Speaker 22 The papers outlined how this anesthetic, Dometor, could be used to subdue large numbers of people.

Speaker 22 These kinds of weapons are often referred to as incapacitants, because rather than kill their targets, they're meant to put them to sleep. It doesn't sound so bad, right?

Speaker 22 Except Those leaked papers refer to the only time we know of when incapacitants have been weaponised.

Speaker 22 That was more than 20 years ago, when terrorists in Moscow took almost 1,000 people hostage in a theatre.

Speaker 22 Russian special forces filled the auditorium with this kind of sleep gas to disarm the attackers. But more than 130 hostages also died in the process.
They just never woke up.

Speaker 22 So this stuff can be deadly.

Speaker 33 I would say that the norm against using chemical weapons is right now under stress. We've seen the Syrian government, we've seen Russia using chemical weapons.

Speaker 33 And our concern about this is now also extended to the Iranians, not in terms of their actual use at this time, but in terms of their chemical weapons program.

Speaker 22 Nicole Champagne is the U.S. Ambassador to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, the OPCW.

Speaker 22 It's a global body, a kind of United Nations, through which most of the world's countries have joined forces to try to end the development and use of chemical weapons.

Speaker 22 It was after Iran joined the OPCW in the late 90s that the regime admitted for the first time that it did have a chemical weapons program.

Speaker 22 But it said the program stopped when the war with Iraq ended in the late 80s.

Speaker 33 Except Iran maintains a chemical weapons program that includes the pursuit of certain pharmaceutical-based agents as part of a broader category of incapacitating agents for offensive purposes.

Speaker 22 It's a particularly big deal for Iran to be accused of still actively making these kinds of weapons because, as the number one victim of chemical attacks in the world, it's been one of the loudest voices calling for their abolition.

Speaker 31 The active participation of the Islamic Republic of Iran formulating the convention was rooted in a very bitter experience in our recent history as main victim of chemical weapons.

Speaker 33 They're still trying to pretend as if that is not happening. So they actually don't want to be seen as being in violation of the chemical weapons convention.

Speaker 22 I asked an Iran specialist how likely he thought it was that the regime would actually use these kinds of weapons. Only if they feel cornered, he told me.

Speaker 22 Given the heightened tensions in the Middle East, I think now might be a good time to start paying more attention to Iran's chemical program.

Speaker 22 So, if the United States mission to the OPCW believes they have evidence of Iran's new chemical weapons program,

Speaker 22 what are they doing about it?

Speaker 22 Well, not much.

Speaker 22 The OPCW isn't a police force. States have the right to call for a challenge inspection of another member state.
But in the organisation's 27-year history, no one's ever invoked this.

Speaker 22 Even if it were to happen, the challenge state would have lots of notice before any inspection was carried out. Plenty of time to wipe the surfaces clean.

Speaker 22 We tried contacting the Iranian mission to the OPCW and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Tehran, but neither of them responded.

Speaker 22 The Iranian regime maintains that it has a clear position against weapons of mass destruction, including chemical weapons.

Speaker 22 And of course, there are sanctions in place to try to prevent Iran from acquiring harmful substances.

Speaker 22 There are also middlemen willing to bypass them, companies and individuals who may be sympathetic to the Iranian cause or else just happy to do business and cash the check, no questions asked.

Speaker 33 Individuals like that are extremely dangerous, are extremely dangerous.

Speaker 33 It is the transfer of precursors, the transfer of chemical agents, chemical warfare agents themselves, that put us all in danger.

Speaker 33 So when there are individuals that seek to circumvent the laws of various countries in order to get those types of agents into the hands of countries that have chemical weapons programs, they're placing many, many people at risk.

Speaker 33 So it is a very dangerous activity.

Speaker 34 Yesterday, I had a doctor calling me back, and he said the x-ray shows something of your lung again.

Speaker 34 It's always my lung that shows something.

Speaker 22 Peter Valaschek, on his way to Thailand, may seem keen to shed his past. But that's not an option for Farah Shafi, the Kurdish-Iranian woman I've been speaking to.

Speaker 22 Her history is written into her body. Nearly 40 years after she was poisoned by mustard gas, it's now killing her.

Speaker 34 Since yesterday, I am a little bit scared about that too, to see what was that black spot that they found in my left lung, they said.

Speaker 22 In the Interpol Wanted Notice for Peter Valisek, they call mustard gas the devil's breath, one of the most terrible weapons ever devised.

Speaker 22 When I asked him about his role as a middleman, sending chemicals to Iran that could be used to make mustard gas. He's tried to justify it by saying saying he was selling to the underdogs.

Speaker 22 That he saw the damage that was being done by Iraq to people like Farah Shafi, and that he'd do it again if it helped Iran fight back.

Speaker 22 When I tell her that, she's horrified.

Speaker 34 So basically, he gave Iran the same power to do the same

Speaker 34 dirty thing that Saddam did.

Speaker 34 Cleaning dirt with dirt.

Speaker 34 I do not want anyone else, even my enemies, to be exposed to what I have been.

Speaker 34 And for the German guy to go and give the same to the other country, did he really think that it would be only against Saddam and no innocent people would be caught between that? No kids, no women?

Speaker 34 Who would guarantee that to them?

Speaker 34 I don't want even the armies to be exposed to that.

Speaker 34 It should not be used, period.

Speaker 22 I asked her what she'd say to Peter Valisek and any other middlemen involved in sales like this if she had the chance.

Speaker 34 I mean,

Speaker 34 are you kidding me? That's what I want to tell them. Look what you've done to me.

Speaker 34 Look what you have done to my son. I hope before you die,

Speaker 34 you would live at least one year of the life that I have been for the past 37 years.

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Speaker 22 When Peter Valicek's plane lands in Bangkok, it's the middle of the night here in London. The next morning, I scour the papers.
I'm not exactly sure what I'm expecting.

Speaker 22 I suppose I wondered whether his entry into the country would trigger some kind of alarm.

Speaker 22 It wouldn't be the first time he's travelled abroad and accidentally flagged his fugitive status to the local authorities.

Speaker 22 Only that day, and the next, and the one after that, there's no news.

Speaker 22 Not from law enforcement or from Peter Valisek.

Speaker 22 It feels like the trail's gone cold.

Speaker 22 Okay, can you hear me now?

Speaker 23 Yes, I can hear you.

Speaker 22 When I started working on this story and first called Dennis Bass out of the blue last year, he was really taken aback.

Speaker 22 It had been years since anyone had asked him about the Valaschek case, and he was cautious, suspicious even.

Speaker 22 It took quite a bit of convincing before he'd agree to talk to me.

Speaker 27 The media, back in the days when I was in law enforcement,

Speaker 27 I wasn't real crazy about.

Speaker 27 But in the case of Peter Walicek, I think it's good because he would like everyone to forget that he's a criminal and that he's done these things.

Speaker 27 And by them being brought out in the media, people being reminded, it's good because it shows people today what kind of person he is and the things that he's done.

Speaker 27 And I think that's, it's better than nothing, in my opinion.

Speaker 22 When I tell him about Peter Valicek's whole Buddhist conversion thing, he gives me a typical bass response.

Speaker 27 I just think he's a wacko.

Speaker 27 He's a nutcase. And so, you know, he...
he does crazy things.

Speaker 22 What I want to know is, what kind of ending would would satisfy him now after so many years? What would closure look like for Special Agent Dennis Bass?

Speaker 27 Closure for me would be what I've wanted since the very beginning, for him to serve his time for the crime and crimes that he committed.

Speaker 22 He's 81, 82 now. Is it really worth arresting and extraditing him?

Speaker 27 To me, yes. And truthfully, if he was put in jail today and died in jail, that's his fault.
He could have served his time 30 years ago, and this would have been so far behind him.

Speaker 27 But he decided otherwise. He decided to escape and not pay the price for the crimes that he committed.

Speaker 22 Peter Valestek has always known he's a wanted man.

Speaker 22 Do you think they still want to arrest you now you're age?

Speaker 23 Yes, yes, I know it.

Speaker 23 How?

Speaker 23 Because I have a lawyer there and he said if you have a warrant from America, then the warrant is still your dead.

Speaker 22 But when I spoke to him back in Germany, he seemed pretty convinced that he'd only be arrested if he set foot in America, and he wasn't likely to fall for that one a second time.

Speaker 22 I have to be honest and say, even up until pretty recently, I thought he was being reckless by travelling to a country with an extradition agreement.

Speaker 22 But in the end, it looks like Peter Valisczek was right.

Speaker 22 Because eventually, after countless unanswered calls to his mobile,

Speaker 22 I make a last-ditch attempt on a different number.

Speaker 22 Oh, hello!

Speaker 22 How are you? I didn't realise you were in Germany.

Speaker 23 Did you...

Speaker 22 did you finish in Thailand? Are you going back?

Speaker 22 He's back home in his stuffy office in Germany. No sign that he had any problems or raised any red flags with the Thai authorities.

Speaker 22 I can't even find out from the US authorities whether his case is still open.

Speaker 22 Dennis Bass insists he's out of the loop. He's busy at the country club these days.

Speaker 22 I know he still harbours hopes of seeing Peter Valicek behind bars, but I'm starting to think it's the fantasy of a retired special agent rather than anything rooted in reality.

Speaker 22 He had Peter Valisek in custody three times, and three times the gas man slipped through his fingers.

Speaker 22 I think what he's left holding on to is that he made Peter Valisek's life pretty uncomfortable over the years.

Speaker 27 He's looked over his shoulder since the day he fled the United States. I think there's nights that it bothered him.

Speaker 27 He was a real high roller. He used to travel all over and suddenly he'd go to places and the police would lock him up in those places.

Speaker 27 And I hope, you know, someday he pays the price, whether Buddha does it for him or somebody else.

Speaker 22 I can't shake the feeling that there must be lots of people like Peter Valicek out there.

Speaker 22 People who made their money facilitating wars or helping to arm brutal regimes, whether they know it or not. It could be anyone.

Speaker 22 The harmless-looking old woman sitting next to me on the plane, or the nicely dressed gentleman in the cafe at the table across from me.

Speaker 22 Even the wise-looking Buddhist leading a meditation session. So many more middlemen and women who are doing similar things today.

Speaker 22 After all, there are plenty of conflicts that need feeding for them to get rich from,

Speaker 22 including Iran's apparently flourishing chemical weapons program.

Speaker 22 Because in the end, uncomfortable as it might be, Peter Valaschek has got away with it. And the message that sends all those other enablers is: go for it.

Speaker 22 Do you worry like you do business with the Iranian government and the Chinese government and the North Korean government? There have been a lot of reports about human rights abuses.

Speaker 22 We were coming to the end of the interview and actually about to pack up, but just before we left, I had to push him on it.

Speaker 23 Forget this fucking human rights. I hate it.

Speaker 23 I hate, I hate this.

Speaker 23 There is no human rights.

Speaker 23 Thousands of years, no human rights.

Speaker 22 It's not what I expected. I thought he'd argue that he didn't violate anyone's human rights.
Not that there weren't any in the first place.

Speaker 23 Why should I be afraid when I'm sending? They also need something against headache.

Speaker 23 We are not sending atomic bombs there.

Speaker 23 And human rights, when I hear this, these are the

Speaker 23 stupid Western thinking. Human rights.

Speaker 22 But what is it about that that makes you so angry?

Speaker 23 It makes me not angry, but the word human rights, for me, it's nothing.

Speaker 22 Later, over the phone, and actually the last time I speak to Peter Walaschek, he'll adapt one of his favourite phrases and tell me he thinks a good journalist is a dead journalist.

Speaker 22 But before that, back when I'm sitting in his office in Germany, I just can't help myself. I have to give it one more go before I leave the gas man for good.

Speaker 22 One final time.

Speaker 22 Okay, but what about them?

Speaker 23 My God,

Speaker 23 please shut up about this.

Speaker 23 Forget

Speaker 23 this fucking story with Iran and Iraq. Are you an agent from the US?

Speaker 22 No, I'm from London. I'm a journalist.

Speaker 23 Because nobody has asked me in the last 30 years about this. And so always...

Speaker 23 Oh, and what is with the Iraqis and what is with the Iranians?

Speaker 23 Were you on the battle and

Speaker 23 saw the dead beat, then you should not ask such stupid questions.

Speaker 23 So,

Speaker 23 and please.

Speaker 22 Okay, thank you very much.

Speaker 23 I should believe my wife

Speaker 23 said, Don't

Speaker 23 give an interview.

Speaker 25 Thank you for listening to The Gas Man. It's reported by Chloe Hajimethayu and produced by me, Claudia Williams.
It's written by both of us.

Speaker 25 Gary Marshall is the narrative editor, and Jasper Corbett is the editor. The sound design is by Hanna Varro.
Original theme music by Tom Kinsella.

Speaker 25 With additional production in this episode by Amy Harper.

Speaker 25 With thanks to Mike Chamberlain, Dan Casetta, Martin Hahn, Manisha Gangali, Florian Flader and Matt Russell.

Speaker 25 If you enjoyed The Gas Man, our next investigation, Dangerous Memories, is out soon. It's a story about what we risk when we let someone else into our mind and into our memory.

Speaker 25 To get ad-free and early access to all episodes of Dangerous Memories and the rest of Tortoise's podcasts, subscribe to Tortoise Plus on Apple Podcasts or by becoming a Tortoise member.

Speaker 25 While you're waiting, you can hear more from Tortoise's award-winning newsroom by searching for Tortoise wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 22 Tortoise.

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