Jordan Hutchinson: How He Improved To Become The Newest & Most Promising Olympian

Jordan Hutchinson, new open bodybuilding Olympian, Tampa Pro Champion, and Texas Pro Champion, just a few weeks out of his first Olympia, and someone I felt a truly level-headed, genuine, and good person.

That I'd be honored to have on this podcast.

Regardless, at this Olympia, if you're top 10, that's insane.

This lineup is so wild.

I'm such a believer now in insulin sensitivity, and once that goes, you're just not gaining muscle like you should.

You're not efficient with food, you're not efficient with training, your pumps suck, digestion gets out of control.

There's so many variables that go out the window when you get too fat.

And Tyler Mannion looked at me, had me pose and everything for him, and he's like, man, your conditioning is spot on for being this post.

You are looking really good conditioning wise.

I'm like, well, I'm 15 pounds up from the morning of Texas.

Oh, do you have to learn from somebody that brought up a bad body part and made it in a great body part?

My training partner, Justin, he used to have a really weak back and now his lats are strided from like his armpit to his hip.

He taught me riding that line between ballistic training, but also some of the not so hardcore single arm cable row and single arm pull down.

That's a lot of how I pulled up my back.

Me and Chris don't go crazy with anything.

He's very conservative.

He's really about my health.

My body can handle things for longer durations.

We talked about that long break before I ran my offseason.

When your body is more sensitive to things, you're gonna grow better.

That's why these guys that just blast year-round and abuse their body, they don't see the same response.

Branch Warren has given me a lot of helpful advice.

Always after every Olympia, he would take two whole weeks off.

He wouldn't look at a gym, wouldn't step foot in a gym, no cardio, nothing.

He would eat whatever he wanted as a bodybuilder that I was someone that used bodybuilding to positively affect others, not be so self-centered because you can do this bodybuilding thing and still be a good person and smile at other people when you're on low cards.

We need more people like that in the world.

I think the problem is unless you're really in this and have an understanding, everyone assumes they're bigger.

They took took more compounds.

So that's how they got bigger.

And that's it.

How do you feel about your competition with Aries at Olympia?

Hey, what's going on, man?

What's up, brother?

How you doing?

Good.

Sorry, I'm a few minutes late.

It's been a crazy day.

No, you're good.

I'm actually always late.

So that's perfect.

Really?

Yeah.

I'm like known for being consistently five minutes late at least.

Wow, really?

It's never like crazy late, but it's just like always slightly late.

Slightly late.

Yeah.

No, I get it.

I get it.

I heard it's a common thing with Latinas from one of my friends because they were dating latinas a lot and then i was like honestly

i think it's a filipino thing too really make a lot of sense that's funny dude i get it i get it honest from my mom she did like my whole childhood we were we were homeschooled and like

uh i went and i went did college courses in my high school years but like it was always late for everything so that was just the norm And I swear, it's just like ingrained in me that just get everything done and smash a bunch into the time before you have to leave or do something.

And then I think I don't, I don't, it doesn't register to me how much time I actually have.

Right.

No, it's crazy.

Like I would have thought that like in the last like couple decades, I would have had some kind of like sense of

how long 15 minutes is.

I know, right?

15 minutes is a ton of time.

And then you blink and then it's gone.

Yeah.

And then I'm fucking 15 minutes late.

Just like

that sucks.

I hate being late, too.

So I appreciate appreciate it, bro.

No, of course, dude.

How are you feeling right now?

Four and a half weeks out?

Pretty good, man.

It's been a long prep.

I'm getting tired.

I'm not going to lie.

Just I've been lean for a long time.

So it's like,

you know, I was probably ready like seven weeks out from Tampa.

And then we pushed into Texas.

And we always get ready really early.

So

I've been lean for a long time.

Yeah.

That's insane.

My coach is notorious for getting people ready early.

Well, I remember I was listening to quite a few of your podcasts, too, and I recall you guys mentioning that you basically kept your offseason

relatively super lean compared to, I guess, the rest of the industry.

Yeah, I had no time to get fat, really.

I mean, and we've done offseasons before where I pushed the weight up really hard.

And like the offseason prior to this one, I got up to like 303 morning weight.

So I got pretty heavy, but

I grow so much better better when I stay lean.

So we got to keep the reins in on the cheat meals and

button my body get out of control because I just grow better and train more efficiently when I'm lean.

How lean would you say?

I mean, I know this is kind of tough to like put a marker to it, but I guess,

you know, understanding that staying lean kind of helps a good level of insulin sensitivity.

But you see all of these bodybuilders always packing on a good, at least like, what, 15 pounds of fat in the offseason i don't know how much fat it was i mean i got up to i mean it probably would have been more fat and water than that because i still got up to 294 at my highest so i came down like 30 or so pounds still but like the offseason prior i got up to 303 and came all the way down to like 247 so that's like over 50 pounds you know yeah But at 300, you hold so much more water than you do at like 200, you know?

Yeah, that's what I was going to say, too.

It was like, at your weight, you know, approaching 300 pounds, the percentage is vastly different.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like muscle fullness, water underneath the skin,

everything's just watery, bro.

It's not comfortable in the offseason.

Do you remember how many

trying to figure out a great way to phrase this because I find it so interesting how you and Chris have like done this last offseason, this prep.

And I think it's fucking awesome, honestly, bro, because I've always,

I like the idea of staying lean in the offseason better than

better than a lot of the classic bodybuilding i guess theories right

and um it's really really cool to see y'all's results because it kind of you know supports that thesis i'm just such a i'm such a believer now in insulin sensitivity and once that goes you're just not gaining muscle like you should bro you're just gaining fat at a rapid pace and you're not efficient with food you're not efficient with training your pumps suck digestion gets out of control.

Like, there's so many variables that go out the window when you get too fat.

So,

the last show that you had before this Texas and Tampa Pro, I'm assuming the previous year,

do you happen to remember how you guys kind of reversed out of that show?

Like, what was the process?

Well,

that was the thing.

Are we recording for the podcast yet?

Yeah, we're recording.

Oh, we're good?

Okay.

Yeah, so, so my bad.

Yeah, it's

out of Texas Pro 2024.

That this is a cool story.

And that's why I was asking about the podcast because I want people to hear this.

So

I had gyno surgery set up actually.

And so I also had tons of travel.

So like I was heading into an 11-day trip with GASP because I'm a GASP athlete.

And they were taking me on this European Iron World tour

and

basically through the UK and Sweden and guest posing and all this stuff.

So I had that.

Then I had obligations with Gasp to go to the Olympia.

And of course, I wanted to go to that too.

So the show was early August.

Then that stuff ended in October.

And I didn't have my gyna surgery until the end of October.

So Chris kept me super lean.

Like all the comments I got online were like, bro, you need to eat a burger.

Like you've got, why are you this lean post this far post show?

Like two months post-show, you still have crazy striated glutes.

Even into December, I had crazy striated glutes

after the surgery.

And so, what we did was we obviously couldn't rebound and push, got healthy, you know, came down on super sups and, and, you know, got blood work, all that stuff.

And, um,

then I just promote, ate enough to promote training, but didn't ever push food.

It was, I was pretty hungry that whole time, staying really lean.

And then out of the surgery, i had complications from that which is an interesting story um

because the doctor was up this entire time you were basically on this health phase yeah yeah yeah for the sake of surgery as well yeah you know we it was like a test primo at one point that was like

a lot like really low um but for the most part it was trt only and so went through that phase kept food low kept training promoted.

But then I had the surgery.

And of course, that was like no training or anything like that.

But the doctor did a great job on the surgery.

He was really happy.

And I get done with the surgery and I go for my five-day post-op, which was in Staten Island, New York, because this guy gave me a good deal.

Initially, he was known to be this guy that could get insurance to cover it, which it never does.

But this guy has had other guys that he's been able to cover it on insurance.

So I was like, if I get to save like you know eight to ten grand i'm going to do it yeah well it didn't end up working but he still gave me a crazy deal and then after the surgery he's like this looks so good you can go right back to training like just don't train chest or just don't train chest or do pull downs and i was like are you sure about this because like i'm not going to tell you no i can't imagine having to go four weeks without training and that's a general suggestion but like you're for real yeah and dude like two days after I trained back, I did back and then I did legs and I didn't do anything to stretch the chest.

And I was in my

whatever the compression garment, and these massive seromas came up, mostly on the left side.

And what it's a result of is dead space in there and too much movement and blood flow, which a guy of my size is going to have plenty of blood flow.

Just, I could have blood flow there just from training legs.

Like your whole body gets a pump when you're at this level.

You know, it's like, like, so I don't think he understood that, which is not on him.

I should have known to wait.

And so it turned out I was laid off the gym for another five weeks after that.

Oh, shit.

Because I had to wait until that seroma went away completely.

And I was even, I was even,

because I knew no doctor around here would want to do it.

And I'd have to fly up there.

I was drawing that fluid out myself.

So I was

really determined to get that done, get that under control, and then finally went back to training.

How did you, you were drawing that fluid out yourself?

Dude, 30 cc's out of the left side.

It was like 10 out of the right, and it would come back within two days.

I'd literally draw out, I'd like squeeze and draw out 30 cc's and then wrap myself with KT tape and try to like.

Press it back down.

I was literally wearing my wife's sports bras underneath my compression garment, like all this stuff.

I was so determined to get this under control right and it would come back right back within like two or three days and so it was just a waiting game because it just had to slowly heal back around and push out that seroma

and so

it was like five weeks after that that i even got back to training so it was literally like from august early august to december when i was able to start my actual push in the offseason.

So I really only had like December, January, February, March for an offseason.

And I made the progress that I did this last year.

I got Prosidus before my last show.

And honestly,

I wanted to fucking just drain that shit myself so fucking bad.

Kept just having people telling me not to fucking do it.

And that would be dumb.

But I swear to God, if I just drained it, dude, I would have had a much better turnout.

Yeah.

I mean, I talked to the doctor.

I didn't ask for permission.

I asked for forgiveness.

So I told him, I was like, hey, by the way, I went ahead and drained this because I couldn't take it anymore mentally.

So he's like, you did that yourself.

But then he, I was like, look, I was clean about it.

Like, I'm not worried about infection or anything.

Like,

I can handle this.

And, um, and he's like, okay, well, if you're sure, yeah, only do that like maybe twice a week.

And he, dude, he texted me like every other day because I was, I was neurotic about it.

Yeah.

You know how we are when it's about our bodybuilding progress and stuff and getting back in the gym.

So, so you have

to do it.

What is bursitis?

I'm going to be real, bro.

I don't even know how to properly explain it,

especially not in medical terms, but essentially

the bursa sack underneath my kneecap burst because all I was doing was fucking single arm lat pull downs on one knee.

And I think maybe I just, maybe I just shifted wrong a little bit, but I didn't even feel it really at the gym.

It just, it wasn't until literally I had a flight to my show in Florida

that night before the flight, before I went to bed, my knee, my, like the whole area around my knee was just like fucking

that's crazy out of nowhere, just like, and it, the fluid buildup just kept increasing, increasing.

So basically, the burst of sac burst and there was just immense,

I don't know, it's basically just a, yeah, just fluid buildup.

And some people say that, oh, you need to drain that.

And then there's other doctors that are like, because it's a,

I'm trying to remember what it's called, but it's a specific pursitis that's obviously associated with this kneecap.

They're like, that's not one that you should drain immediately.

You need to let it rest.

And you need to take some of these, you know, anti-inflammatories or whatever.

You get a million different fucking stimulants, bro.

I know.

It's fucking annoying.

That's what sucks.

And especially on the internet.

So I was Googling all this stuff.

If any, like, I learned so much about gynosurgeries and seromas and

complications and what to do, what not to do, all this stuff.

I feel like I'm an expert at it now.

Um, but uh, I even actually had scar tissue remaining from that seroma because when a seroma forms, it'll form hard scar tissue under there.

And up until like, bro, maybe April or May, it was still in there and looked like I had gyno on my left side.

And is that the most annoying fucking thing?

Dude, I was so mad because I'm like,

I might, and that's one of the reasons I almost didn't compete this year because I thought it wasn't going to go away.

And I almost,

but I reached out to tons of doctors around here in Texas because again, I didn't want to fly all the way to Staten Island for a maybe,

if, because I wanted a cortisone shot.

And these kinelog cortisone shots, when the scar tissue is still fresh, supposed to like melt away.

Well, I had like this bad scarring on the skin, bad scarring underneath it.

And then I finally found a doctor that would do it after paying for multiple consultations with other surgeons.

And he did it.

I walked in his office.

He's like, yeah, let's do it.

10 minutes later, done.

He shot it all up.

And then within a week, it started to look like it was completely dissipating.

And now you can't ever tell I had it.

That's all.

Yeah.

So all that was over a course of a long period of time.

That, that whole surgery issue.

And then on top of that, I had pneumonia in January for like five weeks where I couldn't breathe right for a very long time.

So to be honest, this offseason was such a weird thing.

Like I really don't know

how we made the progress we did other than we just played our cards right and didn't allow me to get fat because I get fat easily.

I always have.

Like if you saw me before I won USAs in 2021, you wouldn't believe that I could have gone pro that year because I was just like,

I just got, I had just done a three-year offseason, no shows in between, hardly any mini-cuts in between.

And

that's just my body, my body stores fat easier because I can eat.

Like I just, I never have a problem eating.

I'm the same as you.

Yeah, it's like giving all the food.

That's hard, bro, when you're in classic.

It's kind of rough.

That sucks.

Are you close to the weight cap?

No, I'm super far off, which is.

Okay.

So you still can eat?

It's kind of complicated.

I don't know.

I'm like right now I'm with Patrick, Patrick Tor.

And he, I don't know if you've heard of how he likes to do things, but he

very calculated.

Yeah, it's very calculated.

And like Chris, he also likes to fucking crusher fucking calories down low in the beginning.

So I've been on like 70 grams of carbs on the rest days for the last like three weeks.

Bro, how far out are you?

I'm two and a half weeks out now.

Two and a half to three weeks out.

But

yeah, man, I mean,

my glutes are,

I feel, I feel pretty damn ready, I gotta say, like, I think I'm as lean as I was one and a half weeks out last year, which is good.

But obviously, because I'm this lean and he sees it, he's giving me, he like, I do every other day check-ins with him and he's giving me refeeds i've i have had refeeds like twice the last week i had a i have a refeed today i'm having a lot of refeeds because you know i'm shrinking away

well that's perfect i i think that's the way to go about it and that's how me and chris do it it's like you can't you can get lean ahead of time but you can't buy back time no to get lean for the show so like if you're lean early you can always feed back up you can always feed into the show which is what we always do so like

usually 10 weeks out, my buddies that are, you know, open pros themselves, or

maybe they're still at the amateur level, at the national level, whatever,

they'll hear my diet and they're like, dude, you're eating bikini food right now.

You're 10 weeks out.

Why are you eating so low?

But then, when they see my food, like now, or

like my baseline days right now are 650 grams of carbs and 80 grams of fat.

It's like 5,000 calories.

Yeah, awesome.

And then, and I may need a high day tomorrow because I'm losing weight.

So it's like, once your body's in that position and it's just ripping through food, you can feed it fairly often.

And I think that's a way better way to go.

I know Patrick Tour has a great approach to things, but I would never want to have to weigh raw rice and then cook it because that sounds like it sucks.

Does he make you do raw weight everything?

It's all raw weight, everything.

Yeah.

But the nice thing is if you've,

obviously, if you've, if you've done the same food that you've been eating for the last four or five years, then you know

then you can then your cooked weight normally ends up being the same

as whatever it would have been.

I don't know, you know what I'm trying to say, yeah.

Eventually, you just use calculation.

So, like, if you know you use the same exact water ratio with your rice, then you can do the calculation of what the cooked weight should be based on what raw would be.

So, yeah, I mean, it ends up coming out the same.

The problem is if like you're, you're swapping carb sources.

So like if I, Chris lets me swap carb sources.

We trust each other and like he lets me do swaps for things if I want to, for the, for a lot of things.

Um, so like my wife makes sourdough bread and I won't go crazy with it.

But like if I want to break up some of the rice, what?

She's like the plug, right?

Dude, she is the plug.

Yeah.

She's the plug around here in Dallas, the Dallas area in Texas.

And, oh, man, so good.

But, you know, if I'm swapping that and the cap, technically, the carbs may not be exactly the same if I'm not measuring raw, you know, because as long as you're consistent with your rice weight and you're always having rice, but if you switch for like rice cakes or something like that, that's where the difference can come in.

But

anyways, yeah, Chris is very, but he's very calculated.

He's very data-oriented.

So he's the same way with me once we get closer.

like I mean, this entire prep, he's had me send him my weight every single day for the entire prep, pretty much.

At one point, it was email him weight every day, just and sometimes it's just okay, got it.

But occasionally, you know, there's some my weight does some wild stuff sometimes, and uh, because I sweat so much, so my weight can fluctuate a lot based on my water retention in my body.

Yeah, um, when I train, it's just like it's it's kind of wild.

So, we do weight every day, and then he just like tells me when he needs pictures.

Like, today we did pictures, and tomorrow again, we're going to do pictures.

So

I know coaches like that, Patrick and Chris, being that calculated is so, it's nice because you can trust them so much because you know they're really truly going off of data.

Yeah.

They're not just like, okay, let's run three low days and then a high day.

And then that's all you're doing for your whole prep.

It's like, how do you know I need this high day?

It's just because it's magically the fourth day.

I always get a high high day that tells me they're guessing you know what i mean yeah 100

plus it's also cool that i mean i don't know it i know it varies and it

for the refeeds for example like with patrick he's got he refeeds me

you know i'm eating like about 450 grams of carbs on the refeed days but the fats are the same which is the interesting thing because normally the fats kind of support you absorbing the rest of the nutrients, right?

But for the refeeds, it kind of just flows straight through me, especially with a lack of fats.

Exactly, it's cool because, like, I do fill out a little bit the next day, and I have a great workout that day.

I have the refeed, but it's like my weight just continues to drop.

So, where are your fats at?

Fats are at around 58.

Okay, so they are 58, but they're crazy low.

Then, I mean, they're not high, but yeah, I mean, the thing is, is like if you have too much fat, sometimes the weight will stick to you.

So, like, me and Chris,

he and it's been almost six years with Chris, and he has never ever given me a dirty refeed or a refeed like burger and fry or anything for the past five years.

And then there was one high day, like seven weeks out, like I told you, we were really close to ready, really far out.

And

he sent me the high date in my email, and I scrolled down to meal six, and it said in and out,

double burger, regular burger, and fry.

And I was like, dude, you're just messing with me.

Like,

this is a joke because this is a cruel joke at that but um

he was he was trying to test that out and uh you know have the extra fats and stuff because food wasn't sticking to me as much and my weight wasn't coming up as much on high days so we tried that out and it worked really well but then one time we did like uh

we did like

steak and

I want to say it was like some wild amount of butter, like 20 grams or more, maybe 30 grams of real Irish butter with steak or something like that on my last meal.

It's just gas, though.

Swimming in butter.

Swimming in butter, bro.

And that next day, I gave

pounds.

Yeah, it was a lot.

I was like, I think the In-N-Out fats, because I think he was trying to match the fats that In-N-Out would have for a regular meal, but I'm like, I just don't think that that fast food sticks the same as like real butter and getting that many calories from fats from like actual butter and and stuff to make at home.

I don't know.

Maybe that maybe I'm just making that up, but it was crazy to see the difference in that refeed when I had that steak and butter.

It was like out of control.

So, how was the um, how was the burger and fries for you?

Like, what exactly happened after?

What was the result?

I mean, I definitely looked great the next day, and we chose In-N-Out because, like, he doesn't want to send me to some burger spot where it varies a lot or isn't always really consistent quality.

Like, he could look up the macros and actually check to make make sure like this is exactly what I want.

Only one piece of cheese per

burger, whatever, no onions.

I had a great response because when

I've had In-N-Out in the past, like in the offseasons, I'll eat In-N-Out and I'm hungry two hours later.

And it just digests really well for whatever reason.

So next morning, my stomach was always flat.

I was full.

I was hard.

So like it always worked well for me.

And it was a nice cortisol release because I've never had that in a prep where I could just like run, run over to In-N-Out, bring it home and watch a movie with my wife and

feel like normal for a couple hours during prep.

It was really nice, you know?

A couple hours.

Yeah, because me and my wife, Brittany, we love having food together all offseas.

She diets just like me.

She hasn't been on stage yet, but she does six meals a day, has a coach,

does all the same stuff.

Yeah, like she goes to the gym with me.

We're very involved with everything together.

But, you know, when I'm in prep, she's always having her off-plan meal by herself.

She brings it home to the house because she doesn't want to go out by herself.

But she's asking me, like, oh, what should I have for my cheat meal this time?

I'm like, I don't know.

I'm not trying to think about food.

But I know, right?

My girl's fucking like during prep.

She's literally like, her whole explorer page is like the most exquisite fucking meals put together and like restaurants and just like new discovery places.

And I'm like, how the fuck, how the fuck are you handling that during prep?

Yeah, that's how I used.

That's how it used to be.

My explore page during prep used to always be that way.

Really?

It was always food stuff.

I would just scroll through cinnamon rolls and donuts and all the sweet crap I love.

Because I'm a big sweet tooth.

I'm a big sweet tooth.

Yeah, it's that's like give me a little bit of dinner and just the rest is just all like all dessert after a show.

But

yeah, so I mean, she's, she'll, she'll eat her cheat meals next to me now, and it's, but it's not the same as us like partaking together.

We want to like,

so it was nice in prep to be able to kind of have that

little mental break and release because by the time the Olympia is over, I'll be prepping for half a year.

It'll be at like 26 weeks or more total.

So Jesus Christ.

It's been a long time.

Yeah.

Holy crap.

How long was your prep for Tampa?

I think it was like 18 weeks.

Okay.

Because so the Olympia is going to be, the Olympia is going to be, I may be wrong, the Olympia is eight or nine weeks from Texas.

And that'll be like a total of 26 weeks.

So

yeah, about like around, I think it was around 17, 18 weeks to Tampa, which is shorter than we usually do.

Yeah.

Usually we start like a pre-prep 20 weeks out.

And initially,

you know, I was not planning on competing that early.

I was actually going to do a late show in the year, like after the Olympia.

I was thinking of doing the Mexico City show the week after the O

or

there's the British Grand Prix that's the same weekend.

And then there's like Romania and Prague and all those later in the season.

That's what I was planning on because I didn't think my body was ready to prep.

I thought I had more growing to do.

But just how efficient me and Chris are in a prep,

it's like, I swear I've grown all prep, dude.

And right now, I just went to the IFBB headquarters in Pittsburgh, and Tyler Mannion looked at me and had me pose and everything for him.

And he's like, Man, your conditioning is spot on for being this close.

Like, you are, you are looking really good conditioning-wise.

I'm like, well, I'm 15 pounds up from the morning of Texas.

You know, like, like it fluctuates.

That morning, I was 15 pounds up because I was 272.

And

morning in Texas, I was 257.

And so,

and it's just like my body just rebounds so well when I'm lean.

And then I feed it and my training gets crazy good.

And I just get really efficient with recovery.

And so, you know, it's just

everything.

And me and Chris don't go crazy with anything.

He's very conservative.

He's really about my health.

So like my body can handle things for longer durations.

Um, you know, and I think also we talked about that long break before I ran my offseason.

When your body is more sensitive to things, like you're going to grow better.

That's why these guys that just blast year round and abuse their body, they don't see the same response because it's not, it's like, where do you go from there?

It's just like,

it's unhealthy and it's, and your body's wanting to shut down as opposed to keep going and recover well and sleep well and all those things that we focus on.

You know, so I've, it's been, you know, this is all fucking theory and stuff, right?

Because like we obviously there's no credible science on this, but I really do feel like from the anecdotes we've seen,

like sometimes even if it's not just obviously health is a big important marker on how much progress you can make and how long you can take what you need to take, but

there's been like I've been really good at keeping my blood work

in really good ranges and keeping my oxidative stress low.

And I still don't feel like I gained as much this year

as I did the previous year

because I didn't,

we like for some reason we were planning a health phase and then I guess maybe we lost track of time.

And by the time the health phase was available, it was like four weeks.

It would be, it would have been four weeks long.

Yeah, it's like,

there's, there's literally no point at this point.

Um, so I mean, it's weird because I never really felt like there was like

originally, I just always felt weird about the whole like

resensitizing of your receptors and whatever.

Yeah, and who knows if it's really a thing or not, if it's as much of a thing as we say it is.

Yeah, I mean, I'm with you.

Something that he says, too, that Patrick says is like there is like you, you do

like your tolerance does drop like you do have like a surge but the surge is normally pretty quick afterwards like it's not it's like the amount of time off

I'm trying to think about like a good example it's like if you come off of caffeine for a while then you go back on caffeine again it's like really fucking strong for you but all of a sudden like a couple weeks or whatever it drops back off comes back to normal comes back to normal pretty quickly yeah so i don't really know like maybe people could take advantage of that time but something that is really interesting is both you and uh, Terrence on our last pod

was talking about how he had his gynosurgery as well, and they took that as a health phase.

And afterwards,

he had been trying for like the last couple years to beat to finally like surpass 212 pounds, and like after that gynosurgery, he like jumped up to like 219.

Yeah, well, I think it's a synergy of a bunch of things, too, bro.

So, like,

that that's what Chris will tell you is it's a synergy of a lot of things.

First,

time off of androgens, getting healthy, going into a push phase really, really freaking healthy with immaculate blood work

and fresh receptors, and then

staying lean the whole time, keeping food lower just to promote training performance and recovery.

And then once everything's on point and ready to go, then you bring food androgens into the mix.

And then

your body is fresh too, because I've never taken five weeks out of the gym ever in the last 12 years.

Never taken more than probably two weeks out of the gym.

If I was like really sick or something, I don't even know that I ever took that amount off.

So, you know, joints are fresh, recovery is going to be fresh.

Everything's, it's just a synergy of all those things.

And I think if you can introduce a lot more food while you're insulin sensitive to that extent, the same time you ramp everything up.

It's just the response is crazy.

And

that's really what he would say

was the situation.

Being lean for so long, being super healthy and fresh, ready to go into it.

And then my body's just responded this entire year, ever since the beginning of the year.

I see.

Yeah.

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I could really agree.

Honestly, I feel like that's exactly what it is.

Definitely the synergy of everything together, insulin sensitivity, having

not blowing up your uh i guess your your

your body composition out of whack so that you're still sensitive like what three weeks in four weeks in six weeks in yeah and then i mean digestion too like he's always very big on that with

i i eat sauerkraut in my meals now even this point in prep he has me drinking kombucha on my fifth meal which i used to think was some super hippie thing to do and now i actually enjoy it it's actually pretty good um but you you know, like natural probiotics, a good mix of fruits.

I have either fruits or vegetables on every single meal through the off-season and through prep.

So it's just optimizing absolutely everything from nutrition as well because

he's a registered dietitian also.

So

I feel like a massive part of it has to be also like, you know how we'll do.

I'm brain fighting with words today.

You know how we'll do.

you're good, bro.

What do you call it when you back off of volume for like a week?

Food volume?

No, sorry, training volume.

Deload.

Deload, yeah.

So when you do like a deload for a week, for example, because you're you're like at peak stimulus and you're not able to progressive overload properly afterwards.

Both you and Terrence took a lot of time off of training.

And, you know, we get these anxieties like, oh, shit.

Like.

We got to train.

We got to train.

Like, what's five weeks off of training going to do?

It's just going to put me five weeks behind.

But, I mean, it looks like

it looks like honestly when you come back it's like you just kind of took this massive deload where like you know anything is a stimulus at that point right 100

add on top that good nutrition you're sensitive to everything

literally everything is on point and then all of a sudden you have all this crazy trading stimulus like you can still progressive overload over course of how many weeks i feel like that is just kind of insane kind of a big surge yeah and then think about how anxious you are to train too, because you've missed it.

Yeah, it's like after a while with training, sometimes when your body's not cooperating and you got all these aches and pains, training can become a chore some days where it's like, oh my gosh, this is hurting again.

I got to figure this out.

My quad feels like I had all kinds of issues this offseason once I got deep into the deeper into the offseason and higher numbers in the gym.

But when you're fresh off of that, it's like everything feels good.

Pumps are crazy.

Like,

um branch warren has given he's kind of uh

given me a lot of helpful advice the more i've spent time with him and uh he would always after every olympia he would take two whole weeks off he'd go hunting he would do something like he loved to do or whatever usually it was hunting he wouldn't look at a gym wouldn't set foot in the gym he wouldn't train whatsoever, no cardio, nothing.

He would eat whatever he wanted and just do whatever he wanted, absolutely no bodybuilding, no thinking about bodybuilding.

And then when he comes out of that two weeks, he's like ready to go full swing.

And whereas, you know,

probably by the end of an Olympia prep, you're pretty toast.

Like you're a little burnt out.

Like I'm a little burnt out right now at this point.

Like I'm, I have all the motivation in the world to

to be on the Olympia stage and I'm loving every minute of it, but I can't deny that my body is toast like i'm just everything hurts so it's like we i think we all need that but the problem is like you said we always want to progress so we get so mental about it that we we do think a week off of the gym is a week without progress and i'm going to go backwards but really it's not the case if it's planned correctly This is something new that like, I just haven't been able to accept for so fucking long, but I've heard more and more and more in the last few months that this is a fucking thing that honestly could actually improve your progress.

And, like, I think I'm pretty sure Fuad Ian, I'm pretty sure they mentioned this on

their, on the Real Bodybuilding podcast too, about like how they wish that they just took some time off after the Olympias, like every year, just like Chris does.

I mean, I know Chris also had a weight cap and everything, but like, imagine how much time that he actually said that he took off.

It's hard for me to even believe that he took that much time off, to be honest.

Yeah.

Well, you're also talking about one of the most crazy genetic freaks we've seen right so like who knows if we would all respond like chris does but but yeah i mean i i

and you also could see how chris would eat like a bird in the offseason so like he wasn't trying to grow he was just refining but i do i do think it's just good for our bodies like i don't know if you know kevin levroni used to like

hardly train in the offseason at all.

And then he would just jump into a prep and explode.

So I got to be real.

Every time he said that, I just couldn't believe it.

To be honest, it was just not looking no way.

It's crazy.

So I don't know.

Maybe there's something to it.

We don't really know because we can't do a legit study on any of this stuff.

Yeah.

So it's like, how do we know

what really works until you find what works for you?

Because I think everybody's different too individually.

I'm sure there's somebody out there if they take four or five weeks off, they might have an opposite effect.

I don't know.

It's just like everybody's different.

Everybody responds differently.

But I do think that for me personally, that was something that I really needed was that forced time off.

And then the way we rebounded into an offseason, then decided to gun it for a show when we did.

I think it just all worked out as good as it possibly could have.

And then you feel like

when I was watching the podcast on High of VBAM with you and Chris and Milos, but how much weight do you guys

did you did they say you gained?

I'm pretty sure they mentioned something along the lines of 10 pounds of lead mass in like half a year.

Yeah, I mean, it was at least 10 pounds for sure, because

I, when I woke up for Texas Pro this year, I have never seen my body that peeled and dry.

I mean, I was absolutely peeled out of my mind.

And, um, especially my glutes, I was like, when I saw the video, I was like, dude, this is insane.

And

I was pretty flat that day too.

Like we usually, I usually wake up a bit fuller than that.

So we fed pretty hard that morning, but I was definitely way leaner than I was Texas Pro 24 waking up exactly at 247.

But at Tampa Pro this year, I woke up at like 262, I think.

So I was like five pounds lighter waking up the next week at Texas, if that tells you how much I dried out in that week.

Yeah.

So it, and I think I was probably about the same leanness as last year's Texas Pro at Tampa Pro this year,

which would have been like, you know, five pounds, 15 pounds up from last year.

So it's somewhere in the ballpark of 10 to 15.

I don't know,

unless I had a Dexa skin last year and this year, I wouldn't know exactly the amount of muscle, but stage weight at least, at least 10, 12 pounds.

And that was in a short offseason.

I think I grew, I really think I grew during this prep because early on in the prep,

this has happened two years in a row.

Chris would get be getting my weight and I'm like, gosh, man, this food is low and my body weight's not dropping.

And we would keep checking weight and we wouldn't do pictures for a decent bit.

And then he's like, man, I just don't understand why your weight's not dropping.

I'm like, Chris, what if I'm growing right now like I did last prep?

Like, I feel really efficient right now, but this food is really low for me not to be dropping weight.

Like,

I feel like I'm getting progressively leaner, but my weight's not moving.

And then I sit in the next set of pictures and he's like, dude, what the hell?

Like, you are.

There was one point in this last prep, he's like, Did you like get some kind of Hulk gamma radiation this prep or something?

Like, I don't know what's going on because I can't explain this.

Because I was eating so low that it wouldn't have made sense for me to be growing.

But somehow somehow it was just a combination of how good I was still sleeping, my recovery, my training volume, how I was performing the movements as efficiently as I was,

and not having to go crazy on cardio either because I'm big on like me and Chris are big on steps and movement and output and training as opposed to like crushing yourself with cardio.

So me and my training partner, Justin Abbott, we go hard with training and and it's pretty high volume most days.

So

all those things together added up to being able to add some size during prep, even on lower food, which was kind of wild to me.

That was awesome, bro.

Yeah.

You guys have this approach that is, I think, kind of reminiscent of this modern age of like bodybuilding methodology and everything.

Like, I know you've probably heard of John Jewet discussing how he prefers steps to over the traditional cardio, just so

it helps manage fatigue while you can focus on training instead and

it's it's cool that like

you i think are a good example of somebody who can do steps focus on

on um

training quality and you come in fucking peeled because all you guys have to do is just make sure that you're coming in lean enough in time just giving yourself enough time to

Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's all that really matters.

Have you had those preps?

Or are you at that point point in your prep where like you dread going into the gym yet?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like there's, there's days like yesterday where like basically it was hard for me to even get up, get out of bed, you know, and

just doing steps was really tough, to be honest.

I just wanted to lay horizontally.

Well, do you do fast cardio?

I do fasted cardio, but I

sometimes I'll do a little bit of elliptical.

Sometimes, like, especially early on in prep, I would do more actual traditional cardio.

But as I went on as prep kept going I could feel the fatigue and I could feel how I wasn't like my legs weren't recovering enough for leg day and all of these all of these issues were coming up so I would just do my facet cardio with doing steps

especially when you know I felt it and it would just help it would help me continue to train hard and be able to recover in time So that's what I'm doing at this moment right now is all my cardio right now is steps because I'm just like fucking I'm I'm at zero right now.

Yeah, dude.

I mean, that's actually what I was going to ask you is

because one thing I, so I tried doing actual fasted cardio where I'm going to get on a cardio machine.

I think I went to,

I can't remember if I signed up at, I think it was once I signed up at Planet Fitness.

It's like, it's like 25 minutes to get to Destination Dallas where Gas Gym is.

And there's a Planet Fitness like right around the corner from my house.

But I hate that environment.

So like I hated even doing cardio there.

But I tried doing the fasting cardio thing for a few days.

And those few days, my training in the afternoon absolutely suffered.

It was just like massive difference in fatigue.

So other than that, the entire prep, every single morning, no matter what, without fail, I wake up.

I take my dog for a 30 to 45 minute walk.

If my steps are closer to 10K, I'll start the day with a 45-minute walk.

If they're right now they're 8k steps so i just do like a 30 minute walk with him just to start my steps fasted and then it doesn't fatigue me at all and it like recenters me i look forward to that walk like right one of the one of the reasons i've always had a hard time getting out of bed and prep when i've had fasted cardio is because i dread having to get out of bed to go do that cardio it's like almost like that's what's keeping me in bed because i know the first thing in the morning i have they say they say do something really hard first thing in the morning.

I don't know that, I don't know that I'm like in that mindset.

I think like starting your morning with something grounding and something you enjoy where you can have like a peace of mind, but get your body moving, I think that's really beneficial.

And so I would just walk my dog around

my neighborhood.

And I've done that every day.

And that gets me ahead on my steps.

And then I always do my post-work, I do my cardio post-workout because it's like you burn through your glycogen at that point, and you can just, you know, rip through cardio.

And I had more energy to put more output into my cardio.

So there's more output in my training, more output in my cardio, and I'm moving during the day.

Whereas, like, I had a prep in 2018 where we were killing me to try to get my glutes and hands in.

And it was two 45-minute sessions of cardio a day on the stairs doing hit intervals.

And my training was complete garbage.

like and i was down to like 1600 calories zero carbs zero added fats at one point i lost 60 pounds in that prep in 16 weeks holy fuck so talk about like overdieting but yeah dude it was and that was not with chris that was three that was two two years before chris

but yeah so like i've been there before and i know how much my training suffers so everything me and chris do is like his most common question is, how is training?

He's always asking me how my training is.

And if training's suffering, where even if my weight is like coming up, if training's really suffering, he'll probably give me a high day.

And that's where I have to be brutally honest.

And he trusts me, where there's been plenty of times where I've said, I said, are you sure I need a high day?

Because I think my baseline's enough.

Like we just did that a couple of days ago.

I was like, I really don't think I need more food than this.

Like my training's not crazy this week, the days before that check-in.

I was like, but you know, I truly don't think a high day is going to boost me that much.

Like, I think

this is plenty of food.

Or, like, there's been times in the past where my food was crazy low.

And I was like, but fatigue is just not there when I'm training as much as a high day would be nice.

I don't, I don't know that it's needed.

And so, I'm really honest with my training feedback and my fatigue levels.

Whereas I've had clients before where they're like always fatigued.

I'm like, are you really fatigued or you just want to eat?

Like, I think you just want to eat.

Yeah.

Yeah, I feel that.

Yeah, Patrick tends to be a little bit of a hard ass, which is kind of nice because

I'm just, I mean, I don't really, I didn't really complain with Kyle either, but I'm definitely too scared to even complain with Patrick anyway.

So I'm just like, yes, sir.

Whatever you say, dude.

I'm never fatigued.

I'm fine.

Just

make me suffer.

It's nice, though, because I'm really happy to have results to show because I can tell he's finally proud of it and everything.

He's posted my striated glutes on this story the other day and everything.

So I'm like, yeah, we're doing good three weeks out.

That's awesome.

I should ask you if I was a tournament of champions

in San Diego.

I literally picked it just because San Diego was like my home.

Brilliantly.

It's a place that I still consider home just because

it's a lot of different things about life.

I think,

you know, that feeling when you like find your tribe, people that you feel safe around and you feel seen by and that you can share everything with.

That was kind of San Diego for me.

So it feels comfortable to go back there for my first classic show.

Yeah.

Well, that's awesome, bro.

Yeah.

I mean, so where do you live now?

Right now I'm in LA in the Valley area.

Okay.

Gotcha.

I'll be coming in January for the LA Fit Expo with gas.

Oh, nice.

So I'm sure you'll be there.

Yeah, yeah.

I'll definitely be here.

We should look up.

I'll definitely be at the LA Fit Expo, too, for sure.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, we'll get you there.

I'll have to see you, man.

I've never been to California, so San Diego and LA are a couple that I'd like to go see.

San Diego is a great place to visit.

LA, that's what I've heard.

Yeah, LA, I just want to see, like, I just want to see like Muscle Beach, Venice Beach.

But how far is that from LA?

I really got that prepping going on right now.

Fucking Muscle Beach.

My brain isn't working for me either, bro.

But I'm assuming it's got to be not too far away because they planned for us to go to like the whole Muscle Beach and the LA Fit Expo and all this stuff.

Yeah, it's not this whole Iron War up tour thing.

If it is during traffic, which is anytime between unfortunately like 2:30 to 7:30 p.m.

here, it's pretty crazy.

Then it might take you an hour, but otherwise, it should be 30 minutes max.

Yeah.

I mean, there's only a few places I'd necessarily want to hit in California, but I've heard San Diego is amazing.

Yeah, dude, it's awesome.

It's like all the good things about LA without all the shitty parts, to be honest.

Yeah, especially with the good people and everything.

Everyone's just out there on the beach, just like taking streams and being happy that they have life and stuff, and just looking at the fucking palm trees.

That's awesome, bro.

Well, good luck with the show, man.

I know, I know, I'm sure it'll go well.

You do look great, dude.

You look like you're in a great spot.

Thank you, man.

I appreciate that.

I could definitely say the same about you for sure.

Thank you, man.

I'm sure you're feeling it, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, honestly,

I'm positive.

There's just, there's a lot that you don't think about when you win your first pro show.

And of course, also when two pro shows, there's a lot of extra kind of, I guess I would call it chaos where it's, you know, I can't keep up with my phone like I used to.

There's just a lot more going on, a lot more scheduling.

And

I'm sure there's a lot of pressure.

What is it?

I'm sure there's like a lot of pressure as well.

Pressure, opportunities, expectations,

people that don't understand that are like, you know, I've had so many people say, oh, you're going to be top three, top four this year.

I'm like, you don't understand bodybuilding.

Like, this is the Olympia.

Like,

I'm having high hopes, but, like, I'm not delusional.

You know,

it's funny when that is like you're so, like, your friends and your family and all these people who don't watch bodybuilding at all.

And they're like, you're going to win this show.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, well, somebody in the gym the other day was like, go take home the gold at the Olympia, brother.

And I'm like, I'm not winning the Olympia.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, bro.

I know you're trying to be positive, but that's not how this works.

Like, maybe in the years to come, as I progress, you know, so like,

but but

that's just the way it is.

And then you have the people,

the other end of the token on Instagram where they're or YouTube where they're like,

this guy's never going to be top 10 in the Olympia.

He's probably going to be dead last in the Olympia.

I hate his physique.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

And you just got to see.

These are my favorite ones.

Apparently, there's actually like, there's actually probably fewer of those than we think, but it's the same people.

I was just doing this for fun.

I decided to post one of it as like part of the swipes of my pictures and like fucking,

you know, Big Paul.

I'm trying to remember Paul's last name.

What's Big Paul's last name?

God damn it, dude.

I'm just brainforting.

This prep brain is fucking rough, man.

You need to cut it.

I'm on a carb, bro.

I'm on Newopept and Bromintane right now, and I still can't think about anything.

That and you go slam some more creatine now that we've seen all these research.

Oh, I know.

We probably need 50 grams of creatine a day in breath

for the cognitive benefits.

For real.

Oh, shit.

Paul that lives in California over there.

He does podcasts with like Kurt Havens.

And he's, he's, I don't, I think he's done stuff with like, he's homes with like Vigorous Steve.

Oh, I know the Paul you're talking about.

He's, yeah, I know, I think I know who you're talking about.

Yeah, well, I don't know his last name either.

He and like a couple other guys were like, oh, this guy is actually commented on our, on our our stuff too also talking shit about us as well so and paul was like i actually double checked and uh i actually saw that i have him blocked on my instagram account so he probably said something to me too or whatever and then it's all the same guys they just feel they're so unhappy and so bored that they just sit around and troll every page that has a following that's all it is dude it's crazy bro it's it is really sad so you gotta feel bad for him but No, for real.

And I'm like, this guy even has like, this guy, like, it has a profile picture of him and his daughter.

And his, like, like username is like this person's dad or something.

And I'm like, I don't feel like you're being the greatest example.

No,

it's sad,

but um, anyways, um,

I was hoping to ask you this question, but now I kind of feel bad considering they were just discussing expectations and pressure, but um, no, no, no, no, it's not a bad thing at all.

I, I, I enjoy the pressure, so so bring it on, okay.

Um, so uh, what did you think about Ursa's showing?

I was very excited to see it, bro, because

I've actually been messaging back and forth with Urs a little bit, but

he,

and I hope we can get up and train because he was mentioning that, but

I think he should have done this switch a long time ago

because we've seen so many times before, especially last offseason before, the last time he was on the Olympic stage,

how much he had to cut off to create that weight clap.

That was destroying his body every fucking year, man.

Dude, the amount of muscle you have to burn up at that point, you know, it's just not worth it.

And so,

you know, I wish he would have done it prior because he's so young, like, he could have been growing during this time.

But his, you know, there's muscle memory.

That muscle obviously kept popping back on every offseason.

I had no doubt he was going to look like a whole nother animal when he got onto the Italy stage.

And, you know, a couple people texted me.

I can't believe Erst won.

I'm like, I can, because he has really dense, hard muscle from training really hard and not just blowing up like some of these guys that throw 30 pounds on in an offseason and it's not matured muscle.

So, and he has great shape.

He presents his physique beautifully from coming to coming from the classic division, you have to.

I think a lot of us open guys love training so much, and we don't necessarily love the art side, artsy side of posing.

I know I don't, I like hitting my mandatories really well and flowing through those really well.

But when it comes to like posing routines and stuff like that, dude, I don't have the creativity.

Like I have more creativity to write a training plan, not

to choreograph a posing routine.

You know what I mean?

It's tough to enjoy it too, because it's so fucking exhausting, man, especially when you're in press.

And it's like, it's really hard to enjoy until you become excellent at it.

You know what I mean?

Like when you're actually amazing and you've done it for so long, it's a lot more fun at that point.

But like, how long is that going to take with you fucking practicing

creative cardio games while you're on prep and you can hardly do cardio?

Yeah, it's like, it's like anything you, you hate it until you're.

you've done it enough to where you're good at it.

I like that you said that because that's something I probably need to hear because I hated weight training until I became good at it.

So like,

it's always the same way.

But the problem is

I think about it in the offseason.

I'm like, okay, if I could just go ahead and pick out a posing song and then start choreographing something now, then by the time I'm shot, my brain is shot in prep, I don't have to worry about it.

But then it never happens.

I have some, I mean, I have some from the offseason that I did because I had.

I had to do guest posings, multiple guest posings.

So I could just rip those same ones, I guess, you know right but um

but yeah by this point in prep you just don't want to be doing that but but anyways as far as urs goes to finish that conversation i just think like the density the conditioning the shape the hardness everything is just so cool to see an open bodybuilding and i think it's a good thing because i think there's too many guys

I think this is going to probably inspire a lot of amateur guys as well to maybe push for open if they're not meant to be classic because classic doesn't it was never supposed to just be small bodybuilders they're supposed to be guys that stood out with like crazy shape but also maybe you know could benefit from having a weight cap right but I think it's turned into this like

how many guys are suffering to get down to that weight cap and they have blocky waist.

They're just a small, they're a small bodybuilder, like just grow into the open open class, you know?

So I think it may inspire some more guys, even some more pros.

You know, one of the arguments is people are like, well, this shows that, like, even Bumstead said, I think if all the guys took a good offseason, the top 10 at the Olympia would be a lot different.

I think that's the case for Erst, Mike Summerfeld, and Ramon.

I don't think that would be the case for like a Logan Franklin.

No.

Because I think there's a different level of muscle density and size in the open.

And I think it would take a lot more for some of these other classic guys to actually be able to move over.

But there's certain guys that have just been barely hanging on to make those weight caps.

And I think those are the guys that would do well in open.

But yeah, Erson's very impressive.

If you don't mind me discussing this, because I just always found this kind of interesting.

Like, I know

most of us bodybuilders are all doing the exact same thing when it comes to training, nutrition, supplementation, TVs, all of the same thing, obviously, with just different amounts for like our weights and everything.

Sometimes responding, you know, sometimes the drudge side of things are a lot more with the classic guys than you would, you would be, you'd be surprised.

It is.

So, the classic guys are so fucking random, though.

That's the problem.

Yeah.

Is it's completely random.

It's just genetic.

It's, it's,

it's very, um,

individual and it's very individual independent.

I've been training for over 15 years now and I was too lazy to track anything training wise for about the first 10 years because science-based training is for pussies.

But I kept hitting plateaus from burnout, fatigue, joint issues, and injuries, and other factors that at the time I didn't really fully understand.

Realizing not everyone is built to handle the intense, insane workload and injury resilience as Tom Platts and Ronnie Coleman, sad face.

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Code nile nile checkout and here's the problem

i think the problem is everyone assumes from top to bottom unless you're really in this and have an understanding

everyone assumes they're bigger than they got there because they took more androgens like they took more compounds so that's how they got bigger and that's it And they don't think about all the training involved, all the food involved, all the other things involved.

Where like, I know some classic guys that it's like absolutely insane what they're taking.

So I don't, I just, I think maybe as a generality, yeah, you want to be open, maybe you have to push a little more, but not always.

I mean, I would be one of those cases where it's not as much the case.

I think for open,

it's more so just time, like time offseason, time literally growing in the offseasons.

Like you just need way more years of growth.

And then for classic, obviously, there's just a gap where it just stops.

But what I've noticed about a lot of the looks, though, is I do feel, well, I mean, this is more of an obvious thing, honestly, that just like, you know, in open, it's, it's about like the size and fullness

is a marker that's that takes higher priority in judging versus in classic, it just, it's more of like

the detail and the lines is kind of important.

Exactly.

Obviously, shape is important, but the detail and the lines is important.

And I've noticed that

a lot of these guys are sucking themselves down, which is not the greatest thing, but it does sometimes help you get those details out in

sacrifice for the fullness.

Sometimes, unless you're so flat

that you can't fill it back, and then you actually look spilled over.

Right.

And worse.

Which I think is what happened to Ramon.

Right.

I've had times where I was so flat that my glute lines didn't show as much.

Like, for instance, I was pretty flat last week.

Maybe it wasn't last week.

I don't remember when it was.

My weight dipped and I was flatter

and my glute lines weren't showing as much.

And then I came up a few pounds and my glutes looked tighter just because I was just a little bit fuller.

And the same thing has happened around shows.

So like Chicago, in 2024, Chicago Pro,

Steve Weinberger said I looked spilled over at pre-judging, which I don't know if I felt like

I was really, really dry and hard, but I was a little flat

by the judge's thoughts.

He thought that I was spilled over when really I was just flat.

So the lines weren't showing.

So sometimes that's the case too, because these guys just can't fill up fast enough after the weigh-ins, you know?

Yeah.

But I think as a generality, yeah, there's more lines when you aren't chasing fullness is the problem with open guys, always chasing fullness.

Yeah.

That's what Hyacine, Hyacinth is Terrence's coach.

What he said about Terrence as well is he'll come looking like spilled over or like almost more watery if he's just not full enough.

Right.

So they always just try to like prioritize, making sure that he's full enough.

So then you can see the hardness, like that pressure.

That's the fawn, the word, this is the word Stefan uses, like pressure between like the

yeah, I've heard him talking about that.

Yeah, pressure up against the skin.

That's cool.

And that's really what you need, but not too much.

Guys want to be blasting full, they want to eat 1200 grams of carbs, you know, the day before a show to carve up.

Me and Mike, me and Chris have talked about this.

I only have to be like 90% full for me to look my best.

If I'm 100% full, there's like some water that comes along with that that we don't want.

Yeah.

So like, I think guys have to stop chasing that like absolutely massive popping

crazy full.

Like you can have that the week after the show when you go and have all your food and you're just nasty in the gym, but like you don't have to be that blasting full on stage because you're going to look bigger if you look a little harder.

So

I think that's often the problem.

So when I was, I was watching Fuad's pod with Stefan recently and they were discussing feeling that you and Urs could be potentially battling neck-to-neck at this Olympia.

Oh, really?

I don't know if you heard that.

Yeah, no, I think I, I, I watched one of the, I had one of their podcasts on today in the background.

Was it the new one?

Um, I think they have a newer new, I think they have a newer one that came up this morning, but I feel like I did hear that with Stefan, yeah.

And, um,

they I've also heard, I've also heard guys comparing both of y'all to Dorian Yates.

Oh, really?

I've seen all of the, I've seen all the stuff on Instagram with him and Dorian Yates.

I haven't seen the comparisons of me and Dorian Yates.

That's cool to hear, though.

Usually I hear Branch Warren.

I can see that.

But a lot of people say I look like Branch Warren's son in the face, so I don't know.

How do you feel about you?

your competition with Urs at Olympia.

I just don't know until I stand next to him, but what I like is he's one of those guys

that's very similar to me.

That when you're looking at a picture of me by myself, I don't look nearly as impressive or imposing as when I stand next to someone on stage.

Everyone that meets me in person after seeing me online, the thing I always get is, man, you're bigger in person.

Oh, these shots don't do Jordan justice.

You should see it in person, which is cool.

It's better than the opposite of, yeah, he's not that that impressive he's just in the pictures he looks crazy you know which would suck

but uh i think urz is the same way he doesn't have these freakish body parts he's so balanced and we also have the same weak points we it's our back and our arms right which my arms have come a up a lot this year but my back is you know it's just lagging compared to how much

development I have in my glutes, my hands, my quads, like everywhere else.

And it's just like there's a lot of density everywhere else.

So it kind of leaves a hole there where it's not quite as much.

And the same for Urs.

So I think it'll be a good comparison.

I don't, I think he may have a little bit better shape than me, but I think I overall size per my height,

I will look a little bigger than him and more dense.

I think I'll beat him in the side shots pretty handily.

But there's other, like those front shots with his shape and his avant thigh is amazing.

I think it'll be a really good comparison for sure.

I think so, too.

It'll be really cool to see, man.

I think people are going to be surprised at how well he does at the Olympia.

Yeah.

He continues to surprise me.

Yeah, I think they'll be surprised about me, too.

I hope.

So

there's, you know, it depends on who you talk to.

Some people say I could be in the top eight.

Some people say, oh, I won't even be in the top 10.

Or, you you know, is

everybody has their opinions.

But you just never, you'll never know until then.

Regardless at this show, bro, at this Olympia, like, if you're top 10, that's insane.

This lineup is so wild, bro.

So, like,

you can't really, like, any of these guys, if I beat any one of these guys that show up, that's still like, well, at least I beat, there's, there's nobody there that's like a scrub, you know?

not a single person so no

I mean it's a it's a toss-up for a lot of guys I feel like I don't know maybe this is this is just fucking

This is probably a hot take, but I feel like open right now is just the lineup is way more exciting than any other division right now.

Yeah, it's just unreal, man.

Yeah,

yeah, it's gonna be pretty awesome.

I can't believe I get to be a part of it this year.

Like, I've never watched the Olympia in person in the crowd before.

No way.

I wanted to last year

because I was staying in gas with gasp at their gasp house they had for like the athletes and stuff.

And they have like this big watch party where they have everybody over and they have two chefs that make crazy good food and wagu steak and all this stuff.

And I was like, I kind of want to stay for the watch party rather than spending four.

400 plus on an Olympia ticket.

You know, I was like,

I kind of said to myself, I'm I missed my Olympia qualification by one place.

Maybe I'll just wait and make sure the first time I'm at the Olympia, I'm on the stage, you know, so made that happen this year.

Yeah, but uh, that's so funny, it's gonna be a crazy experience, it's gonna be wild.

Um,

you brought your arms up a lot, by the way, for sure.

I was senior, uh, I saw your shots from your last show, and it's kind of honestly insane, especially in the front, like, um,

well, the most muscular.

Yeah, it's pretty fucking sick, Yeah, dude.

The kind of training that I'm doing now, so funny.

It's like I come around full circle where I felt like I was, I was telling Tyler Manning this the other day at the NPC photo gym in Pittsburgh because he was asking me the same thing and telling me the same thing.

He's like, you brought your arms and shoulders up so much.

And,

you know,

one of the main exercises I have to say has been incredible for me is a guillotine press, which my

training partner, Justin Abbott, showed it to me.

And we do that twice a week.

There's just so much more heavy compounds now that I'm doing

that utilize other muscle groups.

So like a guillotine press is a close grip press to your net, but you still contract your chest every rep.

Like my chest gets a crazy pump when I do that, but it's putting so much more tension on my triceps.

And so, you know, like I'm not just beating my arms up with a ton of single arm tricep pull down pushdowns and like pump work and isolation movements.

Like

I may be doing two isolation movements a week,

maybe three for triceps.

And the rest is,

excuse me, the rest is like compounds like dips and guillotine press and other presses.

And it just seems to, but, but very high volume and high frequency.

So like I train chest and tries to Monday and then I have shoulders and arms on Friday.

And then I hit biceps with back on Tuesday and then again on Friday.

And I'm not afraid of more volume now.

So it's just my training has changed a lot for my arms.

It just, it just definitely,

it used to be a lot of pushdowns, cable work, and I really don't do a lot of cable work anymore.

The volume for me has been a big change in anything that I needed to bring up.

If I just immensely

brought up that volume, which obviously unfortunately would have to sacrifice some volume from other areas just because, you know,

but I mean, it would make the biggest difference.

Like, I think my legs probably grew the most in the last couple of years, and the biggest change there was really just total volume.

I would hit both quads and both hands

full workouts twice a week each.

And

I just wouldn't be so focused on just

hitting the highest amount of weight on squats on the first exercise.

Instead, I would focus on the the volume of the entire fucking workout.

And it's just made a huge, huge, massive difference.

So, yeah, I, so something Chris, my coach, taught me the, the mindset of is we have our recovery budget.

So, you imagine you have a wallet and there's a certain amount of money you can spend per muscle group or not per muscle group for your whole body to recover per week.

And you only have that much to spend.

So, like, my quads are my strongest muscle group.

So, like, if I'm spending so much recovery budget on my quads doing crazy volume, and my arms are suffering and not growing, and my quads just keep growing, what am I doing?

Like, I need to back off that quad volume.

And so, that's I talk about what I did for arm training, but also it's a matter of what I did for

my volume outside of arms.

So like

I do three direct chest movements per week.

I do

incline press, a flat press, and a fly.

And that's it because my chest is one of my more developed body parts.

Now I have the guillotine press in there.

I have a dip in there.

Those are tricep focused that use chest.

And then I have a high incline smith that's mostly shoulders on Friday, but it does use my upper chest.

So it's still getting stimulus, but

it's,

I'm, I'm not doing much working sets on chest at all.

It's still growing.

And then for quads, I do lately, I've been doing six total working sets per week.

It's all on Thursday on my leg day.

It's two sets of leg extensions, two sets of hack squats, and two sets of leg press.

That's it.

And my legs are smashed.

Like they were sore for like almost four days last week.

And it's just a matter of how I'm doing the movements.

So like what you were saying with slowing down the movement, going lighter, not allowing yourself to bottom out on the squat and just rely on the joint to rebound you back up, those kind of things.

But pulling back on my leg volume has really allowed

my other body parts to recover better.

And sometimes you don't think about that because you just think more of everything is better.

Right.

But it's not always the case.

It's generally not the case because you have to match recovery, your training to your recovery ability, you know?

It's something I was trying to tell Wesley visitors because he obviously is trying to improve his legs, right?

For his next showing.

And I think he has, I think what he's going to do is going to be fucking great and he's going to have a lot of good improvements.

But we're discussing how I believe that people kind of underestimate just how much you have to overcompensate.

to bring up a body part.

And one of the examples I brought up was, I'm trying to remember her name.

Um,

she's um

a woman bodybuilder, Terrence showed me her, and she had Michaela Acock had the craziest transformation.

You've seen she's awesome, dude.

Her fucking legs, like, she basically, I don't remember how long it was, but she had a period of time where she even just took off of off of upper body completely and only hit legs three times a week.

And bro, her fucking legs blew the fuck up, it looked three times bigger, and then it's just totally in proportion with the rest of her physique now.

I can say that that same thing happened to my wife.

So my wife has crazy genetics for upper body.

Her back, her shoulders, her biceps.

She looks at a weight in her shoulders and

her back grow.

But she always had trouble getting her legs to grow.

And so she stopped.

She had this thing where she was going to do

figure, then she was going to do women's physique.

Then she backed out of a show, decided not to do it.

And then she kind of found her love for training again to,

she was always training, but she found like, oh, maybe I want to try for like a wellness type physique, not necessarily compete, but like go that route.

And so she was training upper body like once a week and training legs, you know, splitting it up towards she's training legs three days a week or whatever, they blew up.

They absolutely blew up.

And if you looked at her pictures from before that happened to now, and now she's kind of transitioning more over to wanting to probably do figure, but uh, now she's totally proportional

and so much stronger in her legs.

So, it really sometimes you have to do that.

I know Branch Warren, he told me he took like six months or so off of legs entirely at one point because they were just so out of control and his upper body needed to grow.

So sometimes it takes that kind of like sacrifice for

it'd be hard mentally.

I don't know how I would do it.

Yeah.

Like I love training legs too much.

I don't know how I would take that time off legs if they really were that out of proportion.

But, you know, if you want to balance physique that bad, you can make it happen, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you don't mind me asking, how many sets do you do per movement?

Generally, it depends.

So, like,

for instance, for legs,

you know, hamstrings and adductors, I'm always, I do three, but I had to back off on quads because,

like, my training partner, he'll do,

I think he backed off on the leg press too because he was just burying himself.

But he's, he does three or four on the leg extension, but I only do two.

But on everything else, like our back movements, we'll do three working sets generally for back movements.

Unless we're feeling something really good, sometimes we're pretty instinctive where it's like, my lats are blown up right now.

This feels so good.

Let's run this for another set.

Um,

for something like side laterals, a lot of times we'll run five sets back to back.

So, like, as soon as he's done, I go.

As soon as

you know, we just swap off.

Um, and we even do that with like our pull-downs.

We do our single arm

lap pull downs on the cable.

He does his right side, then I do my right side, then he does his left, I do my left, then he does his right.

Like there's no rest in between.

It's back to back to back, just swapping off sides.

And sometimes we'll run that for four sets, but it's

mostly three

sets per exercise for the most part.

But there's certain things like side laterals, rear delts,

where we'll run like, you know, it's almost like a rest pause where we're just going back, back to back, you know.

Bro,

side laterals was always that one exercise.

I would just be doing like six to fucking 10 sets.

Yeah, dude.

There's nothing else to do for fucking medial delts, honestly.

Yeah, right.

They can take a beating, and I've seen the results of not going so heavy on side laterals

and just beating the volume out of them with lighter weight.

I mean, it really works.

I feel like if there's anything that I could actually say with credibility, I'd have to say that the side lateral, that side lateral thing, because I think my medial delts are the one thing that are a little bit still too out of proportion with the rest of my body.

I feel like I'm still going to break up my arms and my chest and everything.

It still looks a little men's physique-y.

Well, there's nothing wrong with having massive shoulders, man.

Yeah.

I mean, you know,

big shoulders fix a lot of things, but I can speak from experience having to pull my arms up to match my delts too.

So,

but yeah, dude, like just focus.

So do you feel like your chest and your triceps lack?

Well, my chest used to be big, but

every year I would focus on a new thing that I felt like was lacking.

And I feel,

I don't know, it's kind of hard to say because.

There'd be people that would tell me that I'm pretty damn proportional all around.

And when I would go to a show too, I would normally get that feedback back as well.

Obviously, when I was competing in men's physique, there was like no one looking at the legs anyway.

So that was a clear thing that I needed to bring up.

But now that I did bring it up, it's like, I'm trying to figure out what's next to bring up.

And I think everything kind of just needs to be brought up in proportion.

But for sure, though, before I went into classic, I think the delts.

were in proportion for a men's physique competitor.

But for a classic competitor, you know, there's a lot of other things that I need to bring up, such as arms, legs, etc.

So that was the focus in the last year, the last couple years.

I got you.

Yeah, it's hard when you switch divisions because you got to really adjust things.

So I don't know.

Yeah, for sure.

It's a new challenge.

And I feel like that's where Earth probably has a lot of drive and passion right now and fire for the sport, you know, is being able to like.

finally progress where you may feel stuck in one thing.

Then it's like, it's kind of like that new shiny thing to chase after.

Yeah.

And that's what we all like in bodybuilding is always having a way to level up

and chase after something more with the process, you know.

I had a good long period of time where

basically I was just trying to survive and just trying to make money, especially when I was starting social media.

So I ended up having to like, the only thing that you could do at the time when I was doing it was like stay fucking shredded for social media so I can get some kind of engagement and get an audience and I can build this up to be something that I can finally help pay for my fucking rent.

And

I did that for like three to four years and it paid off, man.

Like out of nowhere, like everything blew up.

And that's how I got my audience in the first place.

But

the problem with that was even though it was cool to be shredded around and walk around shredded, there was zero gains made in four years.

And I got to be real, like maybe there was, it was great to have social media gains, but like in here, I just didn't feel good.

And I didn't feel totally happy.

And I didn't really feel very fulfilled.

And I'm just like, I fucking like bodybuilding, man.

And like, I don't even care if like that's way more niche than my audience will be because they were all here for just like this lifestyle guy that's always shredded all the time.

Like the thing I like to do is competing.

I like to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and shit.

And still, I'll get these comments like I did like literally like a week ago that I posted that I thought was hilarious.

Was like, I liked you when you were smaller, when you were like a smaller aesthetic or whatever.

And I'm like, well, we we don't really train to stay small here, bro, but you go ahead.

Right.

But no, I, well, you know, I speak from my own experience where the off-season, the engagement just falls off, bro.

And then when you're in and you got to be so creative, it takes so much more creativity.

Whereas like prep comes, it's like, oh, this picture looks sick of my physique.

Let me throw it up with no caption.

And it gets like tons of, tons of engagement, tons of comments and likes.

You know, it's just, it's funny how that works.

But,

you know,

I've been one that

from the start, I didn't care about social media as much.

Now I have to.

I have to watch my engagement and make sure I'm strategic with my posts and all those kind of things for my sponsors and

for my own brand because

We know us pros can't just live off of prize money, obviously.

Right.

So we have to monetize everything, but

you know, it definitely makes it a whole lot easier when you're leaner.

That is for sure.

And so,

but

bodybuilding is never going to be mainstream.

Even if once you get to a certain size,

there is a point where the general population is just like, ew, that's gross.

Like, I don't, I don't like this.

But that's what it's all about is like, We don't want to look like a normal human.

We want to look like a freak, you know, so it's like i don't it's like a compliment if you think that you wouldn't want to look like me i don't want to be that big i will i hope you wouldn't want to be because you're a normie and that would be weird so it's it's like uh you get to that point bro so i'm sure you feel much more fulfilled if this is what you want as opposed to what you know the general population wants because bodybuilding has become more mainstream for sure which is cool to have more fans in the sport but at the end of the day,

it's still so niche.

Like a couple of the Lyft, a few of the Lyft drivers that

I rode with in Pittsburgh a few days ago, it was like, they all asked, what are you in town for?

Oh, well, I'm a bodybuilder, blah, blah.

And they really don't know.

They really don't know.

Most people don't know what it is still

unless they've...

tripped over some bodybuilding Instagram pages.

So

at the end of the day, the general population just isn't ready for what we're all trying to achieve, you know,

and they're always going to talk crap.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, broken Uber drivers, all hopes and dreams, because I told them that Chris Bumps that wasn't natty.

For real?

Yeah.

What did

you said that to somebody you said?

No, he was

just discussing bodybuilding and everything.

And like, I was in this Uber with my girl and he was just like asking us what we do.

And he's like, oh, you guys are sponsored by Yonale or whatever.

And we're like, yeah, because we were just wearing Yonale and all this shit.

And he was just asking about all of it because he was curious, you know, and then talking about bodybuilding.

And he's like, oh, y'all know Chris Bumpstead?

And he's like, we were like, yeah.

And he's like, dude, that's the physique that I want to aspire to be, bro.

Like, I just think it's so crazy that he's natural and he looks like that.

And then I just didn't say anything for like a few minutes.

It's like, you want to be like, bro, are you that naive?

It was a rough man.

I didn't know how to break it to him.

Felt like I was

probably so crushed.

Then tell him Mike O'Hearn's natty, too.

But

I actually wanted to ask you,

now that you brought it up, but I was hoping to kind of ask you because I did not get to hear anything about this in any of the podcasts that I was listening to, but I was curious about how your bodybuilding journey started in the first place.

Like, what got you into this?

and because I know you've been

growing up to this point for quite a fucking while now man

yeah yeah so I mean I played basketball my whole life from age four

um up until I graduated high school and

I had never played football before and I

played one season my junior year and I was I was a really good athlete it was very quick I was pretty strong for my size.

And I had

huge legs.

I could hardly fit in most of the football pants that they were trying to give me.

I had to wear like the lineman size pants

because my quads were so big without ever having trained them.

But my upper body, bro, was like teeny tiny.

So when I say I was about 160, 165 pounds, my upper looked like I was 135 pounds.

So, you know, I played basketball and then I realized like I wasn't built for it when everybody kept growing and I didn't grow past 5'10.

And then

I played a C, what's up?

It's still taller than me, though.

Well, yeah, we're bodybuilders, bro.

Most of us are maxed out at like 5'9.

So, but yeah, so I played basketball, played one season of football, and I realized I was like, these guys are a lot stronger than me and a lot bigger.

And I really want to add some muscle on because i would do like p90x at home and uh do some like athletic training and stuff and speed and agility and all that i could miss p90x dude and shit yeah i know those were the days man

but it uh i remember watching a p90x video and and i wanted to build muscle but i hated weight training and i hated i just was doing it because i was tired of being skinny And so, you know, at the end of the P90X videos talking about like nutrition and supplementation and creatine and all this stuff.

And I'm like, dude, that's so much to learn.

I'll never learn all this stuff.

Like, it just seems like too tall of a task to build muscle.

And so, like, I kept kind of half-assing that and then played that year of football.

And then the football team got me into the gym, which I had never really gotten into the gym before because.

I always hated it.

Like, if any of my basketball buddies at the YMCA wanted to go lift after playing ball, like, I was like, you guys suck.

I'm staying down here to shoot basketball.

Like, I don't want to weight training.

So,

I finally got into it, and it was like

within months of just eating and training and just applying myself to learn how to train halfway properly, my body just absolutely exploded.

So, like, all of a sudden, I'm gained like 30 pounds and I look leaner.

Holy shit.

I was like 195 or so after from 165 to 195 was so fast bro

and uh i just

uh 17 when i started okay so this was 12 years ago i'm 29 now do you have to remember how long it took from 160 to 190

i it was a matter of bro like six eight months i want to say it was like maybe maybe maybe within a year i don't remember but it was a short period like that that was like 30 pounds of maybe not entirely lean tissue but like I had abs and I was 195, you know?

Um, I want to say it had to have been within the year because I was

I started when I was 17 after the football season.

And then by summer practice of the next year, my basketball coach was accusing me of steroids.

And I were in front of the whole team.

And one of the guys

took up for me.

He's like, bro, I see this guy at the gym in the y for like he's there every time i'm there and he's there for like at least three hours which i was and it was dumb i i remember like four hour training sessions because i just didn't want to leave bro low-key those were the most fun man it was it was just all pass pure passion just beating myself up in the gym So that's just where it started.

And then it was still at that same YMCA.

I had a few guys in there.

They're like, man, you have crazy genetics for this.

Like, you should, you should do a bodybuilding show.

I'm like, I've, I could never do a bodybuilding show.

I don't want to get up on a stage in panties.

Like, what?

This is kind of weird.

Like, you know, Ronnie Coleman's awesome.

Like, Jake Cutler, they're awesome.

I love to see that, but I don't think that's for me.

They eventually talked me into it.

And then from that point, I did the SNBF, which is a natural federation.

And

from that point on, I just fell in love with it.

And then

2017 was my first first NPC show.

So

that was kind of my starting story.

So 2015 was the

first show I ever did was that

SMBF Federation show.

And

I got second in novice to

this guy that actually ended up being IFPB Pro in Classic later on.

So we were both in this natty

Nodice class together, and then we both ended up going pro.

That's IFPB.

That's awesome, bro.

It's one of the things I like about Sean Clarito was him starting off in the National Federation, and then you just see him blow up into freaking

those pictures of him back when he was such a little guy.

It's crazy.

I know.

Wow to see.

Dude, that's so dope.

So your first NPC show, I'm just like rough guessing.

I'm assuming like around 22 years old-ish or whatever.

let's see so

that was eight

it was eight years ago yeah around 21 22 gotcha

what um I guess after you did that NPC show like what did it look like from there um did going up on stage kind of just drive you forward like okay I love this I want to keep going like what's the next step yeah I mean I was very driven after that first show in 2015

But I just kept loving it more and more every time.

And then what happened was after the show in 2017, I was like, all right, I want to really push this.

Like

I was trying to do bodybuilding around that time and pay my way through community college and work a full-time job.

And I was like falling asleep in my classes, though

they were hybrid classes.

So like I was doing a lot online and I was.

I was on the dean's list every semester at community college and I was killing it, getting all aged, but I just couldn't sustain because I'm very like meticulous with everything I do.

So I'm obsessive.

So the thing that was suffering was sleep.

So

like, I'm not messing up my grades.

I'm not messing up bodybuilding.

I'm not messing up in my job.

I'm going to juggle it all.

And then I just was burning myself out bad.

And so I don't remember exactly.

I think it was

2017 or 2018 when I stopped going to community college.

I was like, I'm just going to work and pay my rent.

And

like, I don't know what I want to do for school.

So I'm just going to pursue this bodybuilding thing for now

and just make some money at my job and save it on not having to pay through college because I didn't know what I wanted to do.

So 2018 was my next show.

I did the same show two years in a row in North Carolina as a muscle heat.

And so it was a whole year later.

And what sucked was I was about 205 to 208 in 2017, but I looked like six weeks out because it wasn't anything I did.

It was just the coach I was with at the time was a local guy and he always got peeled out of his mind like real easy eating a ton of food.

And so he would like, he would, he was at my gym and he would see me doing extra cardio and he'd be like, only 20 minutes.

And like, are you doing more than 20 minutes of cardio?

I remember him telling me, he may have not like said it like that, but he's like, were you doing more than 20 minutes?

And then one time,

you know, he had me doing a cheat meal every weekend through prep.

And mind you, it was like a nine-week prep.

And

he's like, I think you only need nine weeks in a prep.

And

I told him I had sushi one time for a cheat meal.

And he's like, dude, that's not enough saturated fats.

You need something way heavier.

So I think the next weekend, I went and got Chick-fil-A, like

literally a catered platter of chicken nuggets and Chick-fil-A sauce for me and my roommate.

And we crushed them all.

Fucking epic.

So like just dumb stuff.

Yeah.

And

I looked way off because I just didn't have the direction or the right coaching.

So I was like 205, 208.

And then the next, and so I was a heavyweight.

Then the next year,

I did that prep where I lost that crazy amount of weight with a different coach and I ended up 195 on stage.

So I was like 10 pounds lighter than the year before.

Talk about being crushed.

Like,

because I wanted at that point, I was like, I really would love to go compete at the national level.

Like, I know I'm not going pro for a long time, but like, I would love to just, you know, because I was nationally qualified the year prior, but it was a second place.

I got like second out of six guys in the heavyweights or something.

And so I thought I was going to look much better the next year and I just looked tiny, stringy, but I was peeled.

So I was like, I need like a 16, 20 month offseason.

And so the fire was there, and I was pushing hard.

And the rebound out of that show was wild because I had burnt so much muscle tissue off.

So all of a sudden, three months later, I look massive.

Next thing you know, I'm like 250 and decently lean after being 195 on the stage.

So like

it was, it was really good at first.

And then I actually went to Matt Jansen for a short period after that coach.

Didn't really work out with him.

That was like probably four months.

And then I went to Chris Tuttle in January of 2020.

Gotcha.

And that's where everything changed.

And my bodybuilding trajectory was like this.

That is awesome.

So, yeah.

So

I got with Chris in January of 2020.

And then August, July of 2021, 2021, I went pro and won the overall at USA's.

So

2021.

Did you say

Chris?

Didn't you say that you were just hoping to turn pro before you turned 30?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, like, I ended up turning 20.

I was like, why am I six?

25, fucking six.

25.

Yeah.

And now I'm going to, I turn 30 next week, and then I'll be at the Olympia the next month.

Shit.

Happy birthday, bro.

Thanks, bro.

Yeah.

So I was like, I didn't quite make it to the Olympia before 30, but just barely

qualified at 29.

Yeah, you qualified at 29.

That counts, in my opinion.

Chills me to even think that I'm going to be in my 30s.

But the positive thing is, is they say you're in your prime when you're in your early 30s for bodybuilding.

And I think that's an aspect, too, of what's going on with my body lately is I'm hitting that prime, those prime years.

You know what I mean?

Right.

That's what I try to tell myself, too, to make myself feel better, to be honest.

But

I'm a lot younger than I look, which is funny because whenever people just like to say, like, oh, dude, this dude looks fucking old and shit, and then they guess younger than your actual age, it just makes me fucking laugh.

Yeah, right.

Um,

yeah, uh,

I just like try to remind myself, though, because the thing about bodybuilding is it's such a long game, and um, it is, uh,

there's so many great, excellent stars that are even in their fucking 40s, man.

Yeah, which is so, so dope to see.

So, it's like, in my opinion, just like Ian has said before,

it's like every bodybuilder really has maybe a lifespan of like 15 years or so, maybe even up to 20.

But I don't think it really, really matters where you start as long as you take care of your health.

I agree 100%.

I mean, yeah, Justin Shire started late.

He's like 38, 39.

Andrew Jacks, close to 40.

That's crazy, bro.

That body don't crack.

Yeah, I know.

I know.

Samson Douda is almost 40 to 40 as well.

You know, William Bonak,

he's around 40 somewhere.

So

a lot of those guys, Hottie's getting older.

I don't know.

Hottie's late 30s,

but there's definitely a young crop of guys coming up, though.

That's for sure.

But

what you said about looking older, though, yeah, I get that all the time, bro.

All the time.

I've got, but I've gotten that since I was 15.

I remember when I was like 15 to 17, people thought I was in my 20s.

So when did you start growing up?

This is nothing new.

End of high school.

I was like 17.

It was what that was.

I had an okay beard.

That would make sense, though.

I mean, it's definitely a matter of time.

But by the time I was 18, probably 19, it was very established.

And

I've shaved my beard one time since then.

And it was like,

I think it was 2019.

I had to do it for a job that required it when I started the job.

And then they changed the rules on us, and we were allowed to grow a beard, and I grew it right back.

But I don't like the way I look without a beard, or yeah, without a beard.

But who knows?

It may make me look like five years younger.

I may try it one fret.

That'd be crazy, bro.

And my wife will just leave me, but it's okay.

Oh, it's hilarious.

My girl likes the facial hair too, which is funny because Asians aren't really fans of it, but not like a gift.

Yeah, you got good facial hair, bro.

Thanks, bro.

I can't do the short beard thing.

My hair is not dark enough.

It looks weird.

I wasn't able to even grow out facial hair until I was like

26 or something.

Yeah.

27.

After test.

Yeah.

After test for sure.

It was also the same thing, though.

Well, my dad also couldn't grow facial hair until he was 27, and it kind of hit at the same time i still think the test was really what did it for me but it's just kind of a cool coincidence to say that like my dad and i just we started going at the exact same age so that's cool i mean yeah my beard grows way too fast now

it's fucking sick though bro and this

man i think it fits the whole champions

thank you um

God, there's more things I want to ask, but honestly, are you down to just jump to the Q ⁇ A?

Yeah, man.

I know you got some meals that you got to fucking get in.

Yeah, I appreciate it, bro.

We're like coming up on four weeks out, so the timings, but I got a few minutes for sure.

All right, cool, cool.

There's so many fucking questions.

Uh,

Joe Candela asks, What was your worst binge of all time?

All the details, worst binge, yeah.

Oh man, I do remember this one.

I had uh, it was after that 2018 prep, I had

an extra large pizza from Papa John's to myself, and I probably had like some cheese sticks or something too.

And then I had a dozen donuts from Krispy Kreme to myself.

And then I was still like, that's all I had.

I planned for the cheat meal.

And then there were some fruity pebbles in the house that me and my roommate were at.

So I had all the fruity pebbles that were left.

I found a little bit of cereal that was left from another box.

I I went into the freezer and there was like a Briars tub of Rocky Road ice cream that had maybe like this much left and it was freezer burnt.

So I popped it in the microwave for like 10 seconds to get the freezer burned to melt, ate that and dumped peanut butter into that before I ate it.

And then I had...

There was a Halo Top ice cream, which I was like, this sucks, but I'm eating more, so let's go.

And so

I ate like a whole pint of Halo Top after that.

And I was so sick that I was like, I couldn't lay down.

I couldn't sit down.

I couldn't stand up.

Like everything was so uncomfortable.

I just was like curled up in a ball in my bed.

And I, and I'm not lying to you, I had a protein bar in my hand laying down in bed, about to go to sleep because that was all that was left in the house that was sweet.

It was this protein bar from the show.

That's fucking sick.

So that was my worst binge ever.

And I never did that again.

It's crazy.

I fucking love that you have such a sweet tooth, bro, because I do too.

Bro, my training partner nicknamed me this, and now everybody comments this on my stuff.

He calls me a sugar fairy.

And so, because like I love truvia, I use the truvia packets instead of like actual stevia.

They taste the best, and I use that.

I do my waffles in the morning with, excuse me, with my sugar-free syrup.

Like, my pre-workout meal is the meal before I got on this podcast was chicken, rice, cinnamon, bananas, and sugar-free syrup.

Dude, that sounds like me.

Yeah, so good.

Bro, when I was young, back when I was in competing in college, I would literally pour sugar-free syrup all over my chicken.

So I can pretend it was chicken and waffles.

You want to know something crazy, though?

My wife was so, so crazy, like, like over-dieted in her prep that she put sugar-free syrup on her tilapia.

Not lying.

She was consistently doing it.

It wasn't a one-time thing.

I haven't consistently

done it, but I have done that once.

Was it good?

Because I can't imagine it would be good.

It wasn't good, but it was better than tilapia without anything on it at the time.

I guess so, yeah.

I guess so.

That's so funny, bro.

Yeah,

that was my worst binge.

I've had some other binges in the past, but luckily

I've grown past that, thankfully, because I do not respond well to that yeah

I bet like I know some guys that can eat whatever they want like Hunter Labrada I know he eats a lot post-show and that dude it just soaks up into the muscle like he doesn't even it looks like because after Texas Pro 2023 I ate decently hard and he told me he had so much food ate so much junk and we posed together the next day at Destination Dallas and I was all watery and he was just as hard as he was on stage like hard as nails just full as a house

some people are different

crazy man yeah I don't have those genetics either which is what I want to tell Patrick because Patrick likes to fucking take that offseason hard and fast like after prep which is just it's just tough because I'm like man I feel like I'm someone that needs a reverse like I feel like I've always done best and gained the most on a reverse

my body composition gets destroyed quick bro because that fat that fat kid genetics just doesn't really go away you know and uh i get it bro makes me wonder there's a lot of been there's been a lot of people bringing up the the idea of reta chew tide um even in the offseason at a low level

like it just helps manage your blood sugar so imagine that yeah you know helping um fucking glycogen disposal and everything i was literally talking about the possibility because i haven't used it yet but um i thought about trying it for a post-show phase for the health aspects and for the insulin sensitivity and not feeling like I need to eat a dozen donuts.

I do not think there would be any bad thing that would come out of that.

I don't think so either.

I really want to try it.

Plus, I got a peptide sponsor, so it's like might as well.

Yeah, for sure.

They're really good.

I think it would be very helpful.

All right.

How,

well, kind of talked about this already.

Darren Farrell, IFBB Pro asks, what are the changes you made from last year to this to grow so much?

I think we kind of discussed that a little bit.

Yeah.

We kind of did, but, you know, overall, just like staying lean for a long time,

keeping getting my body really healthy, being fresh, and just

matching my recovery, my training to my recovery as much as possible and extremely prioritizing sleep.

That was the one thing I don't think I mentioned during the podcast was.

Like usually in the offseason, I start getting lazy about my schedule.

And next thing I know, I'm going to bed at midnight, one o'clock every night.

This, this offseason, it was like, I'm in bed at 10, 30, 11 at the absolute latest every night.

And I was like, ano about that.

So I was getting like eight and a half hours of sleep almost every night

all through the offseason until prep.

And now it's like, my body just wakes up.

But sleep was very important too.

So we kind of answered that before, but

to answer that question too, with a little extra how important sleep is,

I really learned that this year.

that and I've never been that consistent with it before.

I've always had issues with sleep like my entire life as well.

And I feel like, to be honest, I was just like, you know what, just because this is anticholinergic, I can supplement with some choline supplements, but adding a little bit of like anti-antihistamine before bed, like doxylamine, I don't know.

Yeah, it just, I feel like it changed the game for me, man.

Like, I can sleep through the night now, and I'm getting, I'm recovering better, I'm feeling better every day.

Yeah, I take consistently, I have a really bad deviated septum that I'm probably going to have surgery on after

the Olympia prep.

We'll see because I need to be able to breathe through my nose better.

But

and my allergies get bad too.

So I generally always take my allergy meds before bed.

And I feel it helps me sleep too.

Probably if you take a Benadryl, it's going to knock you out.

But like

I take Zyrtec right now, and I don't know if that is supposed to, it's a non-drowsy, but I still take it always before bed but I'm sure the drowsy ones will definitely help knock you out they do for sure they do but have you ever tried taking high amounts of GABA

I have okay and

I it helps me as well um I've noticed that uh

I was talking to Dr.

Scott Scher and he was saying that like if you have leaky gut then you tend to it GABA will cross the blood brain barrier more easily but if you have a healthy gut then it tends to not and I've noticed that I think as I got healthier I ended up having to titrate up my GABA doses

Now when I'm doing like three grams of GABA It'll it'll help a lot and I'll actually be able to feel that well I take a conglomerate of things So I don't really know what exactly it is Yeah, and I'm not trying to just plug my sponsor But I'm big on for for staying asleep The biggest thing that's been the help for me is uprising has this product called descend and I Me and my wife both take two of those before bed and it's the only thing that has helped me stay asleep during prep because otherwise I'm up to P every couple hours.

You don't remember what the list is, do you?

Or what's in it?

Well, it's a metrogeny and supplement.

I don't want to say too much to get your YouTube messed up if I use the K-word.

Okay.

Okay.

Are you allowed?

I'm sure maybe you're Kratom.

Are you allowed to talk about that on YouTube?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, bro.

I didn't know.

I don't ever want to get you banned because they're weird about certain stuff.

But yeah, I've talked about it.

I've done it.

It's a okay, it's a Kratom supplement.

Yeah, okay, gotcha.

Wow, that's cool.

Instagram was weird about it for a bit, but now they seem to be chilled out.

But, dude, it's such a

like the so it's a third

30% isolate metragyny, I think, whereas like the one I use for pre-workouts, like 70 or something like that.

So, it helps bring you down and helps you chill out, but it also, like, dude, it keeps you knocked out the sleep.

This different, I don't use it as much in the offseason unless I need it, and I'll maybe use one, but in prep, it's like I have to have it.

It's it's it's such a game changer for keeping me asleep.

That's awesome.

Okay, that's cool to hear.

And I'm assuming you don't really have any issues elsewhere with it because it's just a small dose taken before bed, anyways.

Exactly, yeah.

Some people will say, like, you could have some like digestive, like constipation issues with it, but and you know, obviously, there's people that that talk about the addictive properties, but that's generally with that 7-0

7-hydroxymetragamine that people are taking, which is basically a synthetic morphine.

It's pretty terrible.

Um, it's not naturally occurring at all, and um, uprising strips that out of the products down to like 0.1 percent or something like that.

So, gotcha, um, yeah, so it's uh definitely I've I've run it before for eight, nine months months straight, and then just decided I'm going to take four months or four weeks completely off, and I was fine.

Nothing, no issues.

That's awesome.

That's so cool to hear.

Then, yeah, all right, I'll definitely look that up myself.

Yeah, reach out if you had questions about it.

Bet College just says used to train on AR and have watched the work you put in.

Much deserved, and good luck.

That's cool.

Appreciate that.

Beaver Thomas asks, the biggest things that you did to fix your gut health.

So

i was having an issue bro

with

like

i hate to be too graph i guess this isn't too graphic i guess but loose stool imprep like where usually you get constipate imprep from the low food but i was literally like it wasn't horrible it's not like like diarrhea or anything but it was like it was loose

to the point we think okay what are we doing as bodybuilders we're trying to

we're trying to utilize as much nutrients as possible So we're obviously looking at our digestion.

And if you're not and you're just ignoring it, then you're ignoring an aspect of anybody that's coached anybody or been coached, we know that that's an important aspect.

So I want to make sure I'm absorbing my nutrients.

I felt like I was like losing my guts half the time.

And we tried doing so many things like removing egg whites, removing red meat.

removing avocado, removing bananas, doing all kinds of stuff, removing zucchini.

Nothing would change.

And then all of a sudden I would start taking BPC 157 oral.

And after like a week, it was totally fixed.

So I don't know if I had some issue with my gut lining because,

you know, but it was also in conjunction with

adding some kombucha in, but I was already eating sauerkraut.

I was already taking a probiotic supplement.

So I don't really know what the change was.

I was about to try to pull out my liver supplement for a bit because it has tudka in it and i didn't know if my stomach bioproduction was too high or something like that

but i started the oral bpc and i have not had a problem since that is awesome it took like a week i've heard non-stop good things about the oral bpc so it's something that i

just started implementing yeah dude fasted first thing in the morning i take it um

just after I wake up when I start drinking my chugging my water in the morning and

I don't know.

I'm a believer now, bro.

I wish I'd started a long time ago.

Same, bro.

Same.

I'm going to be utilizing it for peak week as well.

So I'm pretty excited about that.

Make sure all my digestion is fluid during that time.

Yeah.

Probably liposobal glutathione too, just to help make sure that all the inflammation is

going down.

I tried glutathione injections, and I think it really helped a lot with my first peak week.

But obviously, since I was wearing board shorts, it was a lot easier for me to inject that during peak week.

Because that fruit is painful, right?

Is it worse than L carnitine?

It's, it's, Lcarnitine has like more of like a pip, kind of like stays.

Glutathione just stings going in, but it's, it's pretty, it's not that bad.

Especially, there's Anazao has a version of glutathione that, like, this isn't even a plug, but they have a version that like doesn't hurt or doesn't sting bad.

And I'm sure some other people might too.

I don't know what, what they have to do to make it not sting, but it's not too bad at all.

But in terms of like, you know, just washing away inflammation during peak peak week, liposotal glutathione, you know, you just take it orally and everything.

So I think that would be the best alternative that I'm going to be.

Yeah,

it can't hurt at all.

Right.

I'll look into that.

Nick Walker also told me that KPV is very great too, which I totally forgot about, but I haven't tried it.

He's been trying to convince me to take KPV every time I talk to him.

It's funny.

He's a big believer in that, which I can see the benefits.

So I may be trying that too.

Of course, he loves his red eye.

sounds like it really really really loves it yeah he does we don't have to talk we don't have to talk about this too if you don't feel comfortable but ahoda asks um what was your first cycle and worst experience

what was my worst experience or just he just asked what my first one was what was your first cycle and worst cycle experience

so i will say first one came out the gate swinging too high from what I would suggest other people do.

Okay, this is a cool thing.

My first, this, he never prepped me for a show, but this coach wanted me on test EQ and Anadrol, which I told him.

I told him, no way am I taking anadrol.

He's like, why not?

You'll blow up.

And I'm like,

exactly.

I'm not taking that.

I'll stick with the test and EQ.

But even that was high, bro.

And I, so I went like here with my first cycle, and then my next one was like here.

So

it was, it was 500 of each.

And so it's starting out swinging with a gram, you you know.

Like,

so that was irresponsible.

Um,

but I would say, after that, I didn't have like a worst cycle.

Um,

overall, everything

well, the one in 2018 was probably bad, I would say.

Um, I don't care to be, I don't care to be transparent at this point as long as you don't make some clip out of it and post it all over

easy job, but uh, won't do so, dude, dude get this

2018 i was on uh

700 trend per week and now i run like 260.

isn't that hilarious i hear there's so much bro that so many people i mean there's some guys obviously there's one guy i've heard of that will keep running this high of a dosage but most guys i've hear that are been fucking super successful have run 700 or more and regretted it and have dropped the post and feel great at anywhere from 100 to like 300.

I couldn't sleep.

Now I sleep pretty good, but even when I go from like 150 to 200 plus, like I feel a difference in my sleep.

But we just, we don't go, there's no reason to go crazy with that.

Like it really is so strong.

Like you don't need much.

And these people.

are entirely irresponsible and they don't want to hear it.

They're like, oh, he's lying, whatever.

But truly, I had that experience and I was using that amount and I still lost 60 pounds in my prep.

So it's like, it goes to show you if you're, if you're not responsible and you don't take care of the things, like you just run your fatigue into the ground and strip yourself down to zero carbs and just rely on throwing anything that sticks to the wall or doesn't, like,

and just, and just run a bunch of gear.

Like, it doesn't work, bro.

Right.

I was 195 pounds and now I'm running way less of that compound, like a quarter to a half, not even a half, and I'm going to the Olympia stage.

So, like, just at least for a lesson to these younger guys, it's just not worth it.

Like,

and it's, it's only ever in the last stages of my prep either.

It's just, there's, there's a responsibility aspect to all of this that has just gone out the window for some guys that don't want to believe that the top guys aren't using what these you know, these guys will come out with these videos.

Oh, this is what the pros are taking.

And then everybody believes them when they really don't know.

They just don't know.

Yep.

So, like, you know, this prep, I, for the most of my prep, it's been 75 megs of orals.

Like, most people don't want to hear that either.

And they don't believe that.

But it's like

people just

people just don't understand it should be minimum effective dose.

Not how much can I possibly take?

So

I think that's.

I can say my worst, my, sorry, but I can just say my worst experiences was when,

before Chris Tuttle, when Chris Tuttle took over everything and helped me be healthy and responsible.

I love that.

I think that's super valuable for anyone listening because I do have a lot of guys in the audience that are younger as well and a lot of guys that are like still natural and thinking about bodybuilding in the future.

And that's kind of like my favorite thing about this podcast is I've been able to connect with a lot of these guys and they've like told me personally through DMs and everything that they've realized like this has put so much things into perspective.

Like there's so many guys that told them that they need to run all of this shit.

And then they realize like a lot of it, it just isn't true, man.

Like there's, there's, um,

there's a lot of,

I think, I think the, the the world is changing and like there's um the bodybuilding industry is becoming a lot more aware of health and blood work and all of these things and how important it is to manage all of this fatigue is one simple example with training, but um there's still some out there so I think that's the biggest purpose of my podcast because I've done things that were really stupid in the past too that hurt and bit my ass and I'm learning now that by prioritizing my health in every way possible, I've not only felt the best and I not only performed the best every day, even in a mental space, but I'm looking pretty much my best as well.

And as much as like maybe 5% of my audience probably won't believe it, but as shocked as I am, Patrick has me on.

Aside from Provirin, I haven't been taking any orals, which was shocking to me because normally Winstroll by this time, right?

Right.

But just didn't throw, he didn't, he just didn't want to throw the windstroll.

And I'm on, so that makes it so that I'm on less total gear than I was last year with Kyle.

But I've also noticed, even though I am becoming lighter than I expected, I'm also, I also have a less inflamed look.

So I feel like the glute lines and certain lines are a little deeper.

I think that, I feel like that'll be good for classic.

Yeah.

I mean, it's good for every division.

You want a clean look and a healthy body produces a clean look.

And a lot of people will reach out to me and say, you just have this clean look.

Your skin texture looks different.

You don't like hold water.

Like you look dry and separated and all this stuff.

And it's because I've prioritized my health.

And there's a right way to go about doing this.

And there's definitely a lot of wrong ways to go about doing it.

And usually the hard way that takes longer is the right way.

But it requires patience and diligence.

So I agree, bro.

Yeah.

I kind of feel bad because there's a lot of questions that I feel like we're probably not going to get to.

Okay, we can do a couple more.

Okay, all right.

I'll just do a couple more.

We could do quick fire real quick.

Okay, let's do it.

Everyone wants to know how you brought up your lagging body parts.

It's hilarious.

Bro, your lats literally got, like, even from the front pose and your most must, yeah, you're most muscular, like, it's very clear how wide your lats got.

Thank you, man.

It's pretty dope.

Thank you.

I have to thank my training partner a lot for that because he, one thing I always say is you have to learn from somebody that brought up a bad body part and made it a great body part so my training partner justin he he used to have a really weak back and now his lats are strided from like his armpit to his hip and he's just got this crazy freakish thick back so he taught me his

uh a lot of way a lot of his ways of growing back and you know kind of riding that line between like ballistic training but also

some of the not so hardcore single-arm cable row and single-arm pull-downs and that kind of thing.

So

that's a lot of how I pulled up my back.

And there's a lot of videos on YouTube if you guys want to check them out, especially on the Gasp Iron World channel.

They've done a ton of back videos with us.

And on my YouTube, there's like some good raw back workout videos on there, too.

I'm going to check those out for sure.

I freaking love training Bacman.

I feel like the single arms have been helping me a lot with my lats for so many years now too.

Yeah.

It's just, it's just so much easier to,

God, it's such a bro thing to say.

So much fucking easier to just feel that mind to muscle connection with it.

Bro, it is.

It is.

You're more, and it sounds also really science-y and broy, but you are more optimal training lats single arm.

You just are.

I just believe it.

No, I agree too.

Plus the whole like bilateral deficit type thing anyways, too.

So

just curious real quick, though,

how many sets do you feel like you normally end up doing for lats per week i know it's probably like

lats specifically

we always do

tuesday we do

i mean we ended up doing we ended up doing three

to four sets of pullovers on a cable which we don't even hardly count but we're still going to failure on those

So we'll say three there,

three pull down, that's six.

Three rows, that's nine

then we're usually doing stuff for upper back but then we have a mid-back pull down that's kind of some lats

um so that's nine on tuesday and then on saturday we usually do

probably

probably another nine lats

maybe like seven to nine lats specific on saturdays

But then the rest is like upper back.

That's pretty sick.

Yeah.

I know it differs per person and everyone everyone responds to different volumes but i'm i'm around the same ballpark when it comes to actual growing i normally end up having to hit around eight per sesh twice a week yeah that's where i grow most

yeah

yeah i feel like the volume works um christian hennessy

asks uh to explain the role that your faith plays in your life you too with the adversity you faced

yeah so man my faith is the biggest part of my life.

So,

you know, my faith in God drives me to have a bigger purpose than just me.

You know, bodybuilding can be a very selfish sport.

And I love that a lot of people ask me about this because I can come alongside other people that want to develop their faith and,

you know,

and ask me questions and ask for prayer or whatever it may be.

It gives me a higher purpose than just bodybuilding because I feel like God allowed me these blessings and these gifts for a reason and not just to use them selfishly.

So I don't like to just, you know, say, oh, cool, I get to all this for me.

Like I feel a purpose where, you know, if somebody comes up to me in the gym and

has going on with, has something going on with their life, I want to be able to, you know, talk to them, talk to them about it, pray for them.

If

somebody wants to come to church with me, I invite people to church with me.

Like, there's just a higher purpose where

I feel I'm led to have a platform to speak about my faith and be bold about it.

And, you know, I know a lot of people in bodybuilding tend to be more self-centered about our physiques and what we look like, but we're a lot more than that.

And this bodybuilding thing is short-lived.

And then what do you got after that?

You know, so

to me,

with my faith, I believe in eternity and I believe in Jesus.

And,

you know, my faith in God does drive me because I feel like the blessings I have are from him.

So

I appreciate that question too.

Yeah.

I

kind of wanted to ask as well.

And

I'm really glad that you

I'm just glad that you do and I'm glad that you talk about it as well, man.

Well, thanks, man.

Yeah, I mean, you know, not everybody agrees.

And there's some people that maybe

feel some type of way about God or not believing there's a God, or maybe they've had a bad experience with a Christian in the past or whatever that that

that's the problem when you deal with human beings.

And so they get I'll have some DMs that are pretty harsh about what I do and being a Christian and whatever else.

And you know, that's people's opinions, but ultimately I don't I'm going to be bold about my faith and that's who I am.

So I'm not going to hide who I am or try to change it for anybody that doesn't like it.

And I'm going to respect other people's opinions and what they believe.

But, you know, I'm also going to tell it how it is for what I believe, you know, without without shame in it because I'm proud of it.

So

it's something I like to be outward about.

Absolutely.

Yoseba Ipara asks, what was life like as a 20-year-old as a 23-year-old up-and-coming bodybuilder?

It was just chasing a dream man.

So 23 was probably

that in-between time between

my show in 2018

when I would have been about 22 and I was just chasing offseason games hard, bro, eating, training, loving the life of just being a

trying my best to get to a national stage, you know, and so around that time was trying to figure myself out.

And

I guess what year was that?

So

23, I would have been

23 was

six years ago.

Yeah, so that would have been 2019.

I had just gotten like a

sales job and I was hustling, making commission and trying to like really be able to invest more money into bodybuilding.

Because when you're, bro, when you're early 20s and you don't have like the greatest job yet and you're not making as much money, buying all that meat and food and,

you know,

the supplements, the gear, everything, it's like, it's so expensive, it's hard.

And so I tell a lot of young guys, just do what you can and train and eat and like try not to focus too hard on like the competing aspect until you've got a good savings going, a good cushion, and you're financially sound.

And then like, then you can chase that pro card a little more, but

chase the pro physique, not the card.

But, like, then you can go, you know, chasing bodybuilding a little more because it's truly not.

Somebody said this to me one time: bodybuilding is a rich man's sport played by broke people or something like that.

And I hate to say it that way because I was broke trying to do bodybuilding at one point, too, but like

it really is not cheap at all.

So it's hard to play this sport 100%.

So to me, it's like train, grow,

eat your food,

build a lot of muscle in your early 20s, and then, you know, make good financial decisions, which is hard to do in your early 20s, but do that.

And then you'll be a better bodybuilder for it because it's expensive to be a legit bodybuilder.

And to be, gosh, these national shows are so expensive.

So like,

you know, get your finances in order, make sure all that stuff's in order.

And then, you know, you can push for the bodybuilding thing full swing and that's what happened to me around the age of 23 was i finally got ahead financially with that job that allowed me some opportunity to really crush it i was like one of the best sales guys around and was really doing well making two three four times the amount of money i'd ever made and then that allowed me to really pursue bodybuilding more because i didn't have to worry about like oh my gosh i can't pay for all this chicken again yeah you know so

that's what I was doing at 23, just saving money and getting as big as possible.

I feel like every single one of us can relate.

Yeah.

I remember when I was in college and I was like, I know this is fucking disgusting, but I'd have like my, my empty jar in my backpack and I would be going to the dining courts right in college and I'd just be shoveling chicken breasts down on the backpack.

It's a fucking joke.

Jeez, I mean, you got to do what you got to do, right?

I don't know if they still do it, but if anyone does need to get chicken on a, or protein on a freaking, what is it called, budget.

I was getting chicken breasts for $2.99 a pound at grocery outlet at one point.

I don't know if they still do that, but I feel like they do.

They used to have a cold.

Bro, when I was in my early 20s, it was like $1.99 at Sam's Club.

Damn.

Oh, shit.

Yeah, it was cheap back then, bro.

It was cheap.

Probably should have just learned from you, bro.

All right.

Well, I ask one last question at the end of every podcast.

If you were to disappear from the world tomorrow and you had one message you could send to the entire world today, what would the message be?

Oh, man.

Well, that connects back to my faith, man.

Find God.

You know, if you have zero interest in God and you're totally vehemently against that,

that's my purpose is to share.

share the Lord with others and share Jesus with others.

So that's what I feel like is more important than me as a bodybuilder.

But find a higher purpose than yourself at the very least.

And,

you know, I find that through my faith.

But,

you know, I hope I leave a legacy when I'm gone as a bodybuilder that I was

someone that used bodybuilding to positively affect others, you know, not just with

faith and beyond, and as well as just through the industry.

I hope I can impact others to have a positive way about them through the sport and

not be so self-centered because

you can do this bodybuilding thing and still

be a good person and smile at other people when you're on low carbs and

you know talk to people at the gym that come up to you and just want to ask questions even if it's annoying and just be kind to others.

We need more people like that in the world.

And I'm sure a lot of other people could

agree with this too, or maybe resonate with us.

But I could feel that from the podcast I listened to of you before we had this podcast, which is kind of one of the biggest reasons why I felt

the urge to reach out and ask if you would come on.

Well, that's cool.

And I really appreciate that, bro, because I think it's really cool to see that in the bodybuilding industry.

And I think it's...

inspiring and it's refreshing and I just wish you the most success, man.

Thank you so much, bro.

That really means a lot to me.

And I definitely appreciate you having me on.

It was a great chat.

Yeah, bro.

It was awesome.

Hope you get your meals in.

And

I'll see you at the Olympia, bro.

Awesome, man.

Definitely hit me up.

I appreciate you, bro.

All right.

See you.

I'll catch you soon.

Later, brother.