Jack Eagles: The Rising of a New Potential 22y/o Olympian

Jack Eagles, the very young and up-and-coming classic IFPB Pro, and a man that I truly believe could become one of the top in the classic Mr.

Olympia.

How are you feeling?

As you do, as you would, at this stage.

Blight shit, but a good shit.

You know, if I wasn't feeling like this, I'd be worried.

So, you know,

it's where I want to be, which is good.

I mean, if I was looking like you at five weeks out, I would be pretty happy.

I appreciate it.

You know how it gets, though.

When you're in this place, I can't look at myself from a neutral perspective.

I think I'm behind one minute, next minute, I'm like, I'm too small.

Next minute, it's like, you know, it's always the, you're picking yourself apart, which I think is what makes you good eventually.

But

just leave it to the coach and try not to worry about it too much.

Right, right.

How long have you been with your coach for?

Three or four years now.

Yeah, because this is my fifth competitive season.

I think I was with him for three, but I just took a year off.

So it took me year four.

Okay.

Is this like the first coach that you've been working with?

No, I worked with a coach prior, but he was literally like my best mate.

He was just my first ever coach I had.

Okay, that's awesome.

I was with him for the first two shows and then moved over to Tom, who I'm with now, and I've been with him ever since.

Bro, I feel like if you've got like a...

like a boy that's like really experienced in bodybuilding that's like better start off with a coach than like

just getting some random coach and shit bro because yeah i think i was incredibly lucky in terms of i met the right people at the right age and you know started properly like competing in bodybuilding from i was like 16 or 17 when i took my first prep uh

and it was like it was actually good advice at that age it wasn't you know the usual probably that most people get from like some old guy in the gym like i was very lucky to have met danny when i did to then have you know worked with tom and I'm very fortunate that I met those people when I did.

And although the other people, you know, that I have met since is like, I've been very grateful for the, the opportunities I've had and the advice I've gotten.

I think I'm quite lucky with that.

So how did this whole bodybuilding journey start for you?

Because, bro, like, you're 22 years old, right?

Yeah, 22.

That's fucking nuts, dude.

That's literally fucking crazy.

Yeah.

I used to play football, so soccer, growing up, a relatively high standard.

The classic got injured when I was like 16, snapped my Achilles and snapped my thumb and that sort of stuff.

And it was from that that I then went to the gym to try and like stay fit to keep in the team and pursue that.

But obviously didn't stay fit enough.

That standard at that age, if you get injured, you're done for.

But then ended up just loving the gym.

Stayed with that.

Started watching YouTube.

It was around the time when I was like 16.

It was around like David Lade at his peak, Ryan Terry, those sorts of people.

I think it was mainly Ryan Terry that I started watching.

But it's how I then discovered the competing.

And I was like,

I just thought I might as well.

I moved from the south of England to the north of England one summer um so I left all my mates and everything had nothing else to do that summer so I was just like fuck it we'll just prep for a bodybuilding show and I remember being I was like 10 weeks out at the time when I decided to do it googled bodybuilding diet and this is what I was coaching myself and started on that and then literally two weeks later is when I met Danny who then became my coach for the rest of that prep um and then won that first show won my junior mental zeal class and then went on to the overall, won the overall, didn't even know what an overall was going into that show.

Yeah, like I got off stage for Money Junior, expecting to be able to eat a donut and go home.

Uh, and they were like oh, you got to stay for the overall.

I was like,

didn't know at the time.

Um, stayed there, won that, and then that was that.

That was uh,

yeah, and they did another show two weeks later.

Um, so the first show was a natural show, um, so I won the overall, the natural show to start with, and they did an untested show the week after or two weeks after because that's what Danny was doing.

I wanted to do a show with him, right?

Um,

ended up winning the junior class there as well, was it was a natural against assisted athletes.

And I think it was a different federation.

It wasn't IFBB.

Okay, god.

But that got you like a different pro card at the time.

And I did the pro show, got obviously absolutely wiped the floor with.

But it was like, that was the first season.

And that was when I sort of knew I liked it.

Knew I had, obviously, genetics and potential by that point.

I'd been told so many times by that point, it's not normal to be, you know, 17 winning the overall at your first show.

And so it was just from that, I just fell in love with it and just thought, you know, I'll just

keep doing it because I enjoy it.

And then very fortunately, it's turned into what it has to where it's now a career, you know, through obviously coaching, but now also through sponsors and stuff.

And I thought, I get to do this for a living.

And it's literally, it was my hobby.

It was my passion.

And for that to then become this at this age is something I could never have dreamed of.

So it's a great place to be.

Yeah, bro.

You're fucking exploded, dude.

I feel like I first saw your content like a year ago, maybe when you were doing your posing routines on video.

Okay, so kind of like your reels and stuff.

And I just remember thinking, like, man, this guy's got some fucking posing style and some crazy proportions.

And literally, like, a year later, dude,

I can't even express to you just how fucking crazy I feel like your transformation has been in the last year alone.

Like, that's just fucking nuts, man.

It's insane.

No, thank you.

It was a big offseason.

We pushed it hard.

It was the first time.

So obviously, when I started competing at 17, like

following that season, it was like a six, seven-month offseason every time.

And I'll just prep again.

So I prepped four years in a row, right up until the point when I did get my pro card.

Obviously, I eventually transitioned to Classic Physique,

and then that's where I did turn pro.

And the end was Classic Physique, not Men's Physique.

Turn pro, and then I was like, right.

So I got my pro card, and then it was at the NPC European.

So it has a pro show attached to it, and quite a big one at that.

And that was the day after.

So I turned pro on the Saturday.

The Sunday was the pro show.

I was like, I'm in shape.

I'm in Spain.

I might as well just jump on stage.

And that was 2023.

And it was Wesley Visus was doing it.

And because I just turned pro, I was the last last number.

Wesley was the second to last on.

So I was pumping up backstage with Wesley having just turned pro, which was like...

What show was this again?

This is 2023 NPC European.

So it was literally the day I turned pro, the day after I turned pro.

So that was technically the pro debut, but I don't count it because it was like,

I was still an amateur.

So I did that.

And it was just like so cool to have the opportunity to, like, Wesley at that time was like, you know, one of the guys I looked up to, never thought I'd even be meeting Bloke anytime soon, let alone standing on stage with him.

And he was lovely as as well.

But back then, he's always been such a nice guy to me.

So,

you know, credit to Wesley, he's such a such a role model in the sport as well.

But that was sick.

But it was also at the same time, like, I was literally just, you know, the initial comparison.

I was walking out next to Wesley, and it's like me

one week after turning 21, standing next to the guy that went on to win the Arnold Classic a few months later.

It was

a very realistic look at the standard of what the pro league actually is.

Because, you know, you get to the top of the amateur ranks.

And I've been doing pro qualifiers for about a year or two.

So

you kind of, you know, whereabouts the standard is.

And that's the only standard you're like, pros seem like a whole different level.

But then to actually realize right now, I am a pro, it's just the pro league.

There's no weight cap, like those weight casts.

There's no, there's no like height customs or anything.

It's just like, you're a pro, you compete with the best.

That

realistic look, I'm very fortunate I had that straight away after turning pro because it was like, great, you've turned pro, but there's a shitload of work needed to be done now if you ever want to be competitive again or you know, place a show again.

So it was like, right, okay, I need to take the time out to grow.

I'm too small, I'm too shit.

And that's where I then spent the last year and a half growing.

And obviously, with getting older anyway, because I'm still so young, like even when I turned pro, my physique was very immature.

It was very, you know, and it still is, to be honest, it's still got, I think, a young look to it.

It's not dense or it's not, you know, got that, you know, that old man skin texture, just that

that maturity is still what I'm lacking.

But I think more of the maturity has come through in the last year and a half, and that's obviously aided to, I think, such

visual improvement.

But there's still such a long way, I think, I need to go to be competitive on the Pro Leagues.

But that's the beauty of it, isn't it?

It's like I love the process.

I love the off-season.

I've always got a big appetite.

Like, I love to eat.

Same bread.

I love to grow.

Yeah, it's the best, best part in it.

And when I'm going to get in shape, it's like i've got to diet hard and push it hard because my body just wants to grow it just wants to put on sides like it's just where i've always been and i think that's it's a great problem to have um it's you know you're always one or the other so yeah i just love the offseason um

yeah i love it dude great it's almost embarrassing that i feel like i can i want to ask my coach if i can eat more

How much food do you want?

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uh i'm on uh 3400 calories 3500 right now yeah it's not it's nothing crazy yeah that's that's that's not that bad But I gain weight so easily, bro.

I've been on this like upwards trend of

at first it was like 0.92 pounds per week.

Now it looks like it's about 0.7 pounds per week on average in the last several weeks.

But like,

at a 3,500 calorie count, it's kind of crazy.

Yeah.

I'd be like

19, and I think, probably.

I think, but I'd be like, yeah.

How much do you weigh, sorry?

I am 200 now.

200.

Okay.

Yeah.

For the first time, baby.

Let's go.

Small guys.

Good stuff.

What about you?

What's your weight and your height?

I'm just over 5'9.

Scraping, scraping 5'9.

Right now, 215.

My weight cap's 212.

Peak off season, my heaviest this year, I was 254.

Gotcha.

But I was only there for like a short span of time, and then it dropped off a little bit.

I know,

it was a big off season.

Holy shit, that's average.

Didn't feel great at 254.

I'll be honest.

It was

an experience.

Fuck, who was I talking about this with?

Oh, I think it was Lex Little.

Do you know Lex?

Have you heard of him?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I was at Zoo yesterday night, and he was talking to me about like

he was like just talking to me with his usual, usual, his usual rants and open transparency and telling me about how much he fucking gets so annoyed about the entire like the whole main gaining situation going on.

Yeah.

probably partially due to greg greg a little bit but um

yeah it's just been pissing him off because he bulked a lot like he's been working under kyle recently and he uh gained a lot of he gained a lot of weight in the offseason and got pretty fat and he said he like when he posted something like something a little bit controversial about his weight gain and how it was like basically his

his him getting a little bit fat was vaulted

like he got flooded in the dms with like 100 dms of people basically saying the exact same thing about saying like no it's not like you didn't have to get that fat in the offseason you could have gained that much mass and he's like dude you can't make those claims like he gained like what seems to look like almost 16 pounds of somewhat lean tissue as a natural which is fucking nuts like do you really think that like him bringing that down isn't optimizing.

I just think like maybe for naturals, maybe it's not as necessary, but I think like for

I'll disagree.

i think even if you're natural like the most anabolic thing you've got access to is food

you've got to fuel yourself you just got to train like an animal yeah um

because like the natural scene in the uk is like pretty pretty big pretty like you know with aj morris and people like that it's like you know certainly growing at a stupid rate in the minute and it's like all those guys they take a typical offseason's got got to be two years just because they need the time to be able to drive food and just drive training for that long to actually make any significant improvement show to show

so i think if you're natural, yeah, you've just got to use that because that's the only tool you've got is food and training.

Yep.

So, to try and do that lean, like it'll work, and yes, you'll look better throughout, but you won't make the progress that the guy that's putting away shitloads of food will.

And you've got to get comfortable being uncomfortable if you want to make significant progress in a short space of time.

Because, like,

even in bodybuilding, like there's not one open pro bodybuilder who's not had a massive off-season.

Nobody's lean gained their way to being an open RFBB pro, it's never happened.

Um, even in classic, you know, like

I struggle.

Like, you look at

Mike, he's just had one of the best off-seasons we've probably seen.

He's on here saying he gained 60 pounds.

It's like, he did not main gain 60 pounds in four months.

It's like 15 pounds a month.

That's literally, he's doing what, like

a pound every two days.

Yeah, that's fucking nuts.

Crazy.

It's crazy.

He looks so big right now, bro.

And I saw him in person at the end of the day.

Yeah, he looks even fucking bigger in person.

Really?

Who was it?

Freaking,

goddammit.

Who was it?

I'm just brain farting right now, but

my boys that do the comedy TikToks on Yangle

were doing this like YouTube video of

measuring our arms.

So they went to Larry Wheels and Larry Yao.

And then...

Went to a couple other people and then they went to me and measured my arm.

And my arm was a lot bigger than I thought it was.

I don't remember if it was 18 or 19, but I was expecting like fucking 12 inches or something.

and then uh and then they fucking went up to Martin later and I was like, god damn it, dude.

I didn't know you guys were gonna go to Martin.

Like, that's not even fair.

We all know who's gonna win.

Martin had like 23 inch biceps or something.

And I'm pretty sure he's like, how tall is he?

Like maybe my height max.

Yeah, he's not that tall.

I was at Prague.

I watched, I went to Prague for the

show.

Just to, I actually booked it before Chris announced he was doing it.

I got mad luck over there.

So I got like, I was like, I had like a sick ticket like quite near the front.

I could have resold that shit and made like so much money from it.

It's fucking awesome.

Because like, yeah, I booked it literally a week before and then Chris announced it.

I was like, fuck it.

What a show to be at.

But yeah, like,

people, I don't think anyone who's not actually seen an open bodybuilder in person is so much more impressive than you think.

You know, Instagram will never do justice to how

just the space they occupy is fucking gravy.

It fucking doesn't, man.

It really doesn't.

Like, to be honest, I feel like the stage photos just look like absolute talk shit.

No hate to the Manions or anything.

But yeah, I feel like stage photos and stage lighting need a little bit, just a little bit of work in

certain competitions.

But I agree.

Like, you'll see like backstage videos at least.

And that'll really get to you like a better idea because you see people moving through upwards lighting and you can see how the light changes as they walk through.

And like, you just see the density

depth, don't you?

Right.

And I saw the, I saw the backstage videos at the olympia and um

all the top classic guys went through um dino included and then and then i saw someone that i didn't ever really believe

like he's got a lot of hype but i didn't really i think i think i pre-judged his physique based off his shape and his waist size which is a huzuma Oh yeah.

Even though he looks amazing and he gets really fucking peeled.

Yeah, I was literally with him last week.

He's crazy.

Yeah, dude.

And then i saw the video backstage and i was like wow dude it's crazy he pops he's just so much bigger than i thought like it's just so clear and you can't really see that as well when you're looking at comparisons on on stage photos or anything you gotta see the thing was with with jose as well it's like he's big like he looks big but then when you put your hand on him and you just feel his like shoulder like i've got big hand but his shoulder's like a fucking football it's mental like he's that's what i mean as well like he's only a year older than me he's only 23 so he's he's so young but his physique has that maturity and that density that mine just doesn't and i think that's that's the difference between a top six olympian and then just like a pro right there's you know it's that that level of size and and

density to him but he's i don't know if i can say this but i'm sure he won't mind he's 12 weeks out of pittsburgh he's still got 12 kilos to lose It's like

this a serious chunk of weight because I'm only three pounds over my cap now and and we're feeding, you know, pretty occasionally at the minute just to try and slow the rate of loss down because otherwise my sequel just waste away.

So,

but then you look at the top of classics, like these guys are killing themselves to make that weight cap, and that's why they've got this like granite density to them because it's just like they're taking off muscle to get there basically.

Yeah, so yeah, but it's great for me because it means I've got another big off-season in me.

No, exactly.

And another thing is like, obviously, we don't know if this is going to happen, but if they do accidentally gain a little bit of extra mass in the off-season that they don't intend, it really hurts them um

in the future you know like i think there's like this i don't know i feel like there's this sweet spot when it comes to coming down for a show that once you get bigger and bigger and bigger and have to lose more and more and more for your weight cap yeah it really does start destroying the look of your physique i think um i don't know if who it was if it was handy ramba talking about ramon doing that in the last show the last couple shows or so ramon's had to push it very hard hasn't he recently and it's he's the last sort of year two years it's not not been the same as like his 2023 look.

Because I think it maybe is because he had to kill himself so much to make that wake up.

Um, so it'll be interesting to see how the how it progresses now.

Because even Chris, like it did start, I feel like Chris's best year was his first year with honey,

and then he obviously must have probably did get bigger just from fucking sleeping.

He probably got bigger, like,

and then the years after it was just maybe more tactic for him to get there.

Because then you see him in Prague, and it's like crazy.

And he was like, you know, five, that's that five, six pound difference where he doesn't have to just suck suck down, it's a different physique, it's just a different look, and that's like, yeah, it's interesting to see, like, those, like, I think Mike's perfect at the minute where he doesn't quite have to bury himself to make that weight cap, so he can bring in like that polished final look.

And that's, yeah, that is a sweet spot, isn't it?

Because people, I feel like Roman has

probably gone past that, but it'd be interesting if he can bring it back.

Mike only had like three pounds left, right, for his weight camp.

Yeah, I I think that's what he said, isn't he?

Yeah, pretty close.

But I think he just closed the gap this off-season.

He looks so big at the minute.

It's crazy, bro.

He looks like a fucking.

I don't know.

He reminds me of Keelan.

He looks very bodybuilder-esque.

It's fucking insane.

It's just like inflated muscle.

He's dying.

I'm dying down at the minute.

I look in the mirror.

I'm like, everything's so flat and just like non-3D.

But then you just look at like these fucking guys on Instagram all the time.

They're just like, they look like they're just just constantly on high days.

It's like Samson.

Samson, I've never seen the guy flat.

He's always just looks like he's in a thousand pound carbs.

It's fucking crazy.

It's not fair.

It's just not fair.

I think you got a pretty humble perspective though, bro, because I'm pretty sure the rest of us think that's what you look like.

But yeah, I put you wrong.

But like, yeah, I'm sure.

Yeah, yeah.

It's pretty.

The press is always greener, isn't it?

But yeah, I'm looking in the mirror.

and they probably say the same about them death as we probably look in the mirror and think like mike probably wakes up and thinks fucking hell this is shit i'm so flat and then we're looking at it and his quads are like fucking

wild yeah man literally um it's crazy how much our mind adjusts to our body like day by day like we get excited about that day but then it's almost like that image that we saw in the mirror that day is now implanted into her brain and now everything else if it's worse than that makes us feel like shit so it's just it's it's fucking unreal unreal because then we look back at our old pictures like when we're in our off season of us when we were like on stage and we're like jesus christ i was peeled as or something yeah that was i remember that was my very first season like when i remember being

like competing it was all it's like your first prep it usually went by so quick i didn't really take any of it because i was just like dying the whole time um

and then

enjoyed post-show food a bit too much But I remember being like three or four weeks post-show, looking back at like check-ins from just before the show.

I was like, I did not remember looking like that at any point.

And I was like, what the fuck?

And I looked at myself, then I was like, I fucked this rebound so badly.

It's the best time of the year.

It was a good few days, yeah.

It was a great rain for me.

It was a good few days.

As long as it lasted.

What was your stage weight last show?

Last year, last prep, it would have been my lowest was 194.

My weight cap was 202.

So I remember, so yeah, at my very lowest, I was 194.

By the time I was on stage, stage I was probably around about 200 because we had because it was I got quite lucky with with that show that pro qualifier specifically that weigh-ins were actually a day and a half before I was on stage.

So I had a full day and a half to carb up.

So that was that was quite good.

And we pushed it hard.

I was eating like 1400 grams of carbs.

Damn.

How many days?

How many days did you eat the you said 400 grams of carbs?

1400.

1400 grams of carbs?

Yeah, we pushed it like

the day before we did 1400.

I think I did like 800.

so i weighed in early morning at 9 a.m weighed in i think it was thursday morning 9 a.m

was done there the rest of that day i think we did 800 to a thousand um it will be on my youtube video i can go back and look but 800 to a thousand that day and then the friday did i think we planned to do a thousand got to a thousand we're like we just need more did another 400 on top um

and then was on stage saturday middayish um

because it was a i was on a bit later on the saturday as well so we kind of wanted to wake up a little bit spilled over, and then just dry out through the Saturday because Spain was so hot as well.

It like it wasn't an issue drying out.

But then again, after.

Oh, sorry.

So, so, what's your

what is your calorie maintenance?

Like, how much do you

book and prep on?

Uh,

prep right now, I think, is just only just over 2,000.

Like, it's low at the minute.

Um, considering how far out we are.

We had to, like, this prep especially, it's had to go a lot lower than once prior.

Not too sure why.

I think it's perhaps because we did spend so long.

Like I spent well over a year over 240 pounds.

So my body kind of got used to that.

And it's then sucked it down.

You know, I had a few weeks where we just weren't dropping at all, sort of stuck around 235.

And it hit the point where it's like, shit, we need to get things moving now.

So then just had to ramp food down and then...

came in really quick but now we're just having to hold it there and just feed and run low days to high days but yeah i think training day today is just over over 2k i think um

in the off season it was up over six uh

for majority like five seven to just over six two somewhere around there was majority of where i'm at like offseason um so i think maintenance probably be about four five if i had to guess okay gotcha how long did you uh how long did it take for you to drop from that 250, 240-ish to now?

Like, how long is your prep?

This This prep's been quite short.

I think we pushed it a little bit too short in hindsight because last prep, I came in very quickly.

So we were like, oh, we only need like 14-ish weeks.

I think we left it.

Because

the way the timeline worked, it meant I could then enjoy Christmas as well.

So I was like, Sam, have Christmas dinner.

Well, I think we started prep on like officially like the 23rd of December, but it was like you can have your Christmas dinner off and that sort of stuff.

So I think I'm peak that 254 was

late November.

And then I had quite a bit of traveling around Europe.

I was in, you know, Germany, Vienna, and Prague and that sort of stuff.

So that sort of

really pushing it £10 did sort of drop off by the time it came to start prep.

So I started prep around 244-ish.

Was around there probably just about Christmas time, early New Year.

Stuck at 235 till probably the 20th of January, somewhere like that.

And then it's come down pretty quick.

You know, I think we took off about £15

in two weeks, probably, just over, something like that.

Jesus, bro, what the fuck?

It just went.

It was just like, wasn't moving, wasn't moving, wasn't moving.

Put cardio in, changed a few things, and straight away, just bang.

And then it's just been, yeah, I think I've been at 215, 214, 215's been a low for like a week and a half, two weeks now.

Because we just kept, we've done quite a few high days, and I was down in London traveling.

So we've come back from that, done a few more high days, back to a low this morning.

We're now going to dig down to probably around 212, get to the weight cap now over this, this next weekend, and then just feed up again probably early next week and go from there.

But my physique is one of those that if I dig too hard for too long, it just goes.

I'm like, my quad sweep goes, and

like shape is such a strong point to my physique.

Yep, that when I get really flat, that shape goes, and then it's like, there is no strong point.

It's like, sure, I'm peeled, but when you get that flat as well, you almost get a bit watery, and it's the skin's not tight, so then you actually look fatter, even though you're like shredded.

No, 100%.

Yeah, I like what Stefan Kinzel calls it as like pressure, pressure in the muscle yeah

yeah

yeah so that that's uh yeah my physique's one of those like you get these people even if they're a little bit off they still look fantastic it's like if i am flat you can very clearly see it um

so it's we've got a we that's where i've been with tom for so many years now we know this because in 2022 we absolutely fucked it um

and just pushed so hard my physique just went the completely wrong direction couldn't save it no matter how much food we put in and even last year when i turned pro it was like probably pushed it a little bit too hard.

Just by the end, my quads had faded.

Like the regional, I think, was probably a better look than the actual pro qualifier.

And like, we were obviously filling hard, 1,400 grams of carbs, 800 the day before that.

And it still wasn't, but I was still a little bit flat when it came to the stage.

So just using that data and making sure that we don't fuck me up for too long, this prep is the plan.

But so like low days are low, but then we're feeding them fairly often as well.

So you can't really complain.

Gotcha.

Yeah, I remember you stating that on one of your YouTube videos recently, I think it was like the q a maybe about how like you uh you tend to feel like your physique looks better when you're full or when you make sure that you maintain a higher level of fullness yeah it sort of makes a massive difference for my physique sort of i've noticed that with my physique too that my shape is just so much better like like you when i push my legs go fast and i know that this happens with a lot of people but for me particularly i think my legs are a weak point of mine and like any shape just goes the moment that i'm pushing the last three weeks too hard.

So just become sticks, which is kind of frustrating because I feel like sometimes,

I don't know.

The problem is I've only competed in men's physique.

I haven't done my classic, my first classic show yet.

So I don't really know how my conditioning will look there because it's like my glutes will get...

peeled before my abs are perfectly peeled in a weird way.

But for me, I feel like I don't get conditioned enough unless I push that last three weeks that hard.

So it's such a fucking hard balance to like capture, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's where it's just where you've got to do it time and time again.

You eventually learn the rough realm.

And it's where having the coach you can trust makes, I think, a massive difference.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And having that data.

But

the whole point of the sport, isn't it?

It's like that.

Getting that balance right is what makes it so interesting.

Because on any day, we've seen it like Ramon, he could be so off.

And then if he's on it this year, he could be right back at the top.

It's like you just never know what's gonna what physique you're actually gonna bring right up to the last minute.

So 100%.

Um, who's the coach that you're working with again?

Tom Haynes.

He's he's a bit of a, I don't want to say less than momentum, he's a bit of a smaller coach out of the UK.

Um, but yeah, I've been with him for like four years, it was fantastic.

So, yeah, are you guys like pretty uh near each other location-wise?

Uh, about three hours, so not really, because that's like okay, quite far in in the UK.

Obviously,

for the states, that's like down the road, but like over here,

yeah.

Yeah, so I've seen him once in person, and I'm gonna see him again.

I think we're planning for Monday next week.

We'll like meet up halfway and just like do an in-person check-in, and that'll probably be it until

the show.

That's cool, that's dope.

I'm fucking excited to see you at the Detroit, bro.

That's gonna be crazy.

It's gonna be insane.

It's gonna be a hell of a show, Detroit.

Yeah, it's gonna be a very, I'm glad I picked that one.

For it just gives like a straightway I'm standing next to Wesley again.

So it's like,

I can see the progress I've made very clearly.

And like, he's doing the Arnold.

So I'll see him next to Mike, who potentially could go on to win the Olympia.

Even Wesley could go on to win the Olympia, right?

And I'm going to get to stand next to him, hopefully, stand next to him at my first show of the season.

So it gives me a very realistic look at where I'm at and where I need to get to.

Because

if I

did

a smaller show, because there's like what 70 classic shows this year, something crazy like that.

If I did a smaller show and there wasn't, you know,

someone who'd been to the Olympia there before and I did, you know, win it,

fantastic.

I've won a show and I'm going to the Olympia and that's great, but I have no real reference point for how, where I'm going to stack up at the Olympia.

And then that means I've got to spend this whole year dieting just because of the way my season's fallen.

Like if I do qualify, I'm pretty much back and prep for the Olympia straight away.

So that's a year of me not really growing anymore or developing my physique anymore because it's just spent dieting.

And then if I eventually do get to the Olympia and I'm like 52nd, not that that's bad.

You're still 50 second in the world.

That's fantastic.

But that's not where I want to be.

And I don't want to waste this whole year dieting because I am still so young.

I've got so much time that it's like, if I can just do Detroit, find out, okay, right, I need a way better back to be anywhere close to these top 10 guys like Wesley, fantastic.

Straight back in the offseason, take another year out and not waste time basically just trying to

run to the Olympia just to say I've been to the Olympia.

Um,

it's much more of a long-term plan in my head.

So, that's why I'm so glad that, like, Detroit is such has become such a big show and so stacked because it gives me the opportunity to stand next to those top guys.

Yeah, that's a really cool, um, that's a really cool goal.

Um, and I think pretty laudable of you to do.

Because uh, I think for anybody, like, doing your pro-debut can be a little bit daunting.

Um, I think one of the only other people I heard speak with that perspective for the pro-debut is

like uh Anton.

I know he wants to do a big show, like the New York Pro, or I don't know what else what he's actually planning, but um,

it is cool because it does give you a big idea of where you're going to stack up.

And I think also, if you know that you're going to do well, it can create a splash, which is really nice.

Um,

but

in terms of,

I guess,

do you remember where you stood against Wesley in your last show?

Not anywhere remotely close.

I was lucky just because of the initial call out, like the initial just numerical call-out.

I was next to him, so I did get to actually see myself stood straight next to him.

But in terms of actual call-outs, he was obviously center of the first call-out.

He won the show.

I was, I think, third call-out.

That's not that far.

Well, it was a good, that was a good like 12 to 15, 12 to 15 people stood in between us.

I gotcha.

But it was a good opportunity.

I still got, you know, I hit a round of mandatories next to him.

So

it did, it got me exactly what I wanted, which was, again, to get that reference point and just know what I needed to work on in the offseason.

Where do you think you are going to land at body weight-wise for this stage?

Stage weight?

It's hard to say.

I think I've got five to eight pounds of weight to come off.

I'm not going to say fat to come off because it won't all be fat, obviously.

but like, yeah, I'm 215 has pretty much been a low so far.

Weight cap's 212.

I reckon I'll land probably at my lowest 208, somewhere around there.

That's fine.

And I'd like to be, I'd like to be around there.

I don't want to be close to the cap because

if weigh-ins, I don't know what time weigh-ins are, but let's say weigh-ins like 5pm.

It's then you can't eat all day the day before the show.

Yeah.

And then you've got many time to fill up, and then my physique will be probably a little bit flat, tired, and it probably won't be the best look.

So actually, I'd quite like to be be a good, like, you know, a few five pounds of wiggle room would be sick.

That's that's what I'm hoping.

So, yeah, hopefully, I'll probably be 208 lowest sometime around there, but not that concerned as long as it's you know, three or four pounds under the cap and I'm in shape.

That's all matters.

Yeah, I mean, even landing at 208 is going to be fucking crazy because how long was this last off-season for you?

18-ish months, September to

probably have 15 months, yeah.

15 months yeah that's crazy just a little bit over a year but shooting for hopefully you know potentially 14 pounds 15 pounds yeah that's nuts bro yeah he's actually a bit stupid and what you said about that maybe i need to be leaner

maybe i do need to get a bit leaner

yeah we'll see i mean in my perspective it looks like actual fucking real tissue so um i yeah i mean couldn't that be surprised if that was how much weight you gained comparing photos from this prep to to last prep i think it's hard to judge because there is so much more muscle that I think you can potentially look leaner than you are because there is just more detail and stuff going on.

But certainly, from the glutes, the hamstrings, that sort of stuff, like there, they've got more detail in them now than they did a day out last year.

And I'm still five weeks out.

Damn, that's fucking awesome.

So, yeah, that's good, but there's still, you know, the lower back still needs to lose a few pounds.

So, and you're only as lean as your fattest body part.

So, there's still, there's still more to go, right?

But we'll see.

Um, I'll be up a good

10 to 12 pounds at least, which is all you could ever want for taking an off-season.

So

yeah, zero complaints there.

Happy with that.

Same 100%.

I'd be super happy with that.

I saw this was in one of the questions in the QA, actually, but I want to ask it anyways, because now I'm fucking curious.

And we're talking about proportions.

But so,

yeah, I think one of the greatest things about your physique too is just your shape is fucking insane, dude.

It's literally fucking nuts.

And

I

don't mean to

blow your head up or anything, but I do believe that you have a massive, massive potential to become the next Mr.

O someday for sure.

Um, I just

think it's just it's just there, man.

And I think it's clear for a lot of people.

I think even one of the other people in the QA said, like, honestly, I think, like, no question, I just think that you're right about his potential.

Um, and um,

though

I maybe I I haven't analyzed much or enough, but I'm curious because I think the growth in your shape has been pretty phenomenal in this last off-season.

But like, what was your focus?

Did you, did you, uh, have any priorities on any specific muscle groups?

And was any of this also a result of feedback from judges or feedback from a coach?

Um, so I mean, a large aspect was just more muscle everywhere, obviously.

You know, I was still

small, was small before, still am, but uh, my back especially, like that was one of the main things when I hit a back double next to Wesley straight after turning pro.

It's like fucking reality check, you know, you shit, get better.

The back was definitely to bring it up, and we did.

We have put a lot on there.

I still think I need a lot more to stand with pros from the rib.

Glutes, hamstrings, development-wise, I'm happy with.

But just the actual back itself, the upper back, you know, that sort of area there just needs a lot more thickness to it still.

And then quad sweep as well but like in the off season my legs look really overpowering almost um but it's because my quads stay so lean year-round like they're still feathered when i was like 250

um

and all that's really happened from 250 to now is they've just lost sweep

uh they've got a little bit more detailed but they've primarily just lost sweep um just because they are the first things to come in and i'm still having to get everything else in they just you know fade a little bit so it would almost get the quads overly big so that I can afford to obviously lose some of those.

And then also, obviously, just change a few things of prep, a little bit more quad frequency this time around.

Those sorts of bits have made a big difference, actually.

So the quads are holding on a lot more, but we still have five weeks to go, so still, you know, a lot of time for that to go wrong.

But we'll do everything we can to make sure it doesn't.

But yeah, it was a lot more back and a lot more quad were the two priorities, but more so for the off-season.

It was build a better back.

And now I'm getting lean.

I'm like, I need more arm because I just see fucking everyone hitting front doubles and their arms are fucking huge.

So it's yeah, it was that which we did, but like now I'm getting leaner and leaner and leaner and prep brains kicking in.

I'm just looking at everything thinking, shit, I should have focused more on arms.

Need more ammunition, like everything like that.

So it's one of them.

But

yeah, it was a productive offseason.

I don't think I could have done much more than I did,

which is nice because you gives me peace of mind.

You know, when I step on stage, five weeks time, it's like, this is as good as I could have been at 22.

And it's like, wherever I land,

that's how good I am.

You know, people that beat me, they're better than me.

That's fine.

I'll go away and get better.

So, when you look at it as well from that perspective, it kind of gives you peace of mind.

It's like,

sure, I really want to do well.

And of course, I'd love to win, but it's like

at the same time, I've done everything I possibly could have to win.

If I don't, chances are, unless something goes horribly wrong in Pete Week or whatever, chances are it's out of my control.

Somebody is just better than me.

And chances are they're probably older than me.

So it's like,

wait till I'm their age, and then see.

And then, if I still lose, then I need to find a different excuse.

But no, for sure, like,

yeah, we'll see.

It'll be good, yeah, yeah.

Um,

uh,

for the uh,

for the quads, you said you changed the frequency and it made a difference.

Can you be a little bit more specific?

Like, what exactly was it before

versus now?

Because genetically, like, my legs have always grown very easily in the off-season.

Um, and last prep i was i just have one leg day a week so i was doing like a push pull rest push pull legs rest repeat split um so it was legs once a week on that leg day i was only doing one set of uh squat patterns so i was only doing one set of pendulum squat throughout the entire prep because that's all i was needed to do in the offseason to maintain like you know in proportion legs as that prep went on and you know you start to get a little bit tired it's like the intensity of that one leg day a week was certainly dropping off and that one set of pendulum probably just wasn't enough because it's like if let's say one week i'm just really fucking dragging heads not quite in it i fuck that set i don't push it quite hard enough it's like right you one set of squats for that entire week was just wasted and then i go and pound i was doing inclined treadmill for cardio that prep and i was just pounding away quite high impact on the legs and you do that for a week and then like i had the regional shows i have peat wheat where i'm not going to train legs and then i've got one week and then it's peat wheat for the pro core i'm not going to train legs so So if I fuck up that leg day between, it's like you've had three weeks not training legs whilst pounding cardio.

And I think that's probably why my legs did flatten off so much.

So taking that into this year, it's like in the offseason, I was still really only doing legs once every seven days because that's all it needed.

As we then transitioned into prep,

the split adapted.

So I'm doing three days on, one day off now.

And it's like a push-pull sort of quads and arms session.

So just a touch upon quads.

And then it's push-pull full leg day.

But that quads and arms session has like two sets of leg extension, two sets of a hip press, and then two sets of split squat.

So it fucks me up.

And then four days later, I've got a full leg day where again, it's two sets of leg press.

It's two sets of pendulum and walking lunges.

So every four days, I'm hammering my legs this prep.

Whereas last year, it was like once every seven days, I was doing one set of pendulum.

So it's like there's a bit of big difference there.

And I've also moved like cardio this time around has been cross-trainer.

So

not as hardcore as being kind of treadmill

but a lot less impact like no impact so it's been a lot less taxing to the legs as well I think so I think that's made a difference so just doing those two things was changing the cardio source and also improving the frequency of the quads

and we're also when we do run high days you know typically now we're doing two two back-to-back high days

around 800 to a thousand grabber carbs the two days prior to the leg day so the push and pull day, I'll be eating 800 to 1,000 gram of carbs for those two days.

So then by the time it gets to legs, it's like all that food's in me ready to be put to fucking work in the leg day.

Yep.

And that's been working really well as well because then those sessions are phenomenal.

I get a really good pump, loads of blood stimulus driven to the quads.

And that's why they're holding a lot of better things, is all these things that we learned from last prep and then apply to this prep.

Yeah, those are 100% everything that I would, you know, choose.

And I'm sure my coach would too in terms to

keeping the fullness in our legs.

The last show that I had, I had this knee injury that happened literally the beginning of peak week, which was kind of the most annoying thing in the world.

But

comparing this show versus a show that I had maybe four weeks earlier, the last three weeks, about the same, still pushing really hard.

Calories are low, 1700 calories, still doing a fuck ton of cardio every day.

But the difference was instead of doing legs twice a week, I was now doing legs zero times a week for a week and a half,

almost two weeks.

I don't know if it was the PNMP week.

I would say it was like right when I flew out, but I flew out really early.

So it was more about like a week and a half.

But yeah, literally in that last period of time in a week and a half that I just did not train legs at all

and had

literally that low of calories.

It's crazy to just see how much my legs shrunk.

Like I have pictures stacked and I can literally show the differences, but by the time it was one week after the show and I still couldn't do legs,

the difference in shape is just so crazy.

It's like looking at like a...

You know, you just have something with sweep and then you look at like, look at a fucking toothpick, bro.

It's just fucking mouth.

It's crazy.

Because I've got it from the end of my last prep as well.

It's like all the check-ins, they're in the same spot, the same lighting, and I'm hitting the pose the exact same.

If you just swipe through them as the days go on, you can literally just see my quads coming in, and it's fucking you don't notice it at a time.

And then you look back and it's like, fuck, your legs are like four weeks out, look so much better.

Yeah, it's yeah, it's crazy how quick your body adapts when it's like that efficient at that point, it's on that low of food, it does anything.

It's like legs don't need any nutrients, fuck them, right?

They can go, right?

Send it elsewhere.

It's crazy.

So, for um, hitting your back and bringing your back up, was it like total back or was it just back thickness, upper back

uh it was a bit of everything um

lats have always been quite strong from the front i think probably like higher in shirt insertions or whatever so that that you know waist and the lats look good um

so the lats weren't a major i've always been able to connect quite well with those but it was just the the more just the whole thickness through like the the lower lat insertion um bringing that out more and then traps and roms all up there so it was kind of the whole back base of the edge needed a lot more thickness and density to it.

And it still does.

But in terms of bringing that up, like

because of, because of the people I met, as I was saying earlier, like the style of training I've been following pretty much since I was 16, 17 is like people call it like the train by JP style.

You know, it's like top set, back off set, you know, two sets per exercise, till failure.

Yeah.

Progress the load every single fucking week.

Like that's what I was doing.

And I still kind of do, but it was this last offseason where I kind of got to a point with strength as well.

It's like I got so strong that those two sets would either cause an injury or be so fatiguing that it's not really bodybuilding at that point.

And it also got to the point where I was so worried about just moving this massive weight from point A to point B, I wasn't giving a shit whether I was feeling the muscle contract or not.

So it's kind of taking a step back from that.

a bit more,

I guess you'd say like Mike Israttel style through the backs training, like actually getting a stretch and then feeling it contract and like, you know, lift the chest and actually pull through and get that feeling there.

And as a result, obviously, the load came down a fair bit, but the overall pump and like actual connection to my back was so much better.

And I was still doing heavy shit, like I was still, you know, shifting some weight on like a bent over row.

But then at the same time, I'd be going onto like a seated row or like a T-bar and actually working my back through its full range of motion.

And

maybe doing three sets and a drop set as opposed to just two loud sets.

And that almost combination then of both led to a lot more growth.

And it's kind of now what I'm also applying to my chest because I got crazy strong at chest pressing, but had no chest to show for it because it probably ended up being all front belt and tricep.

And so now I'll take a step back on that as well.

It's like, I'm lifting a plate and a half less than I was before for less reps, but but my chest is so much more fucked up after the set.

So I guess that, yeah, dropping the ego basically and training for bodybuilding rather than just training to get strong from point A to point B.

There's not a big difference.

But at the same time, like in my early years, I grew a lot and I fucking loved just getting strong.

I really enjoyed it.

Could I have been maybe a little bit more efficient if I did what I'm doing now back then?

Yeah, of course.

But at the same time, I was young and I had a fucking great time doing it.

So yeah,

that's a conversation I enjoy talking about a lot because I know there's a lot of controversy and a lot of discussions.

You kind of hear a lot of bro science versus

science heads debates regarding that training style.

And

I always

am really intrigued and excited to hear like these conversations on like Fuad's podcast whenever there's discussing how they feel like just training really heavy in that style where you're really trying to progressive overload through weight

creates this almost like more dense greeny look.

Now, that sounds as bro science as it could possibly be, you know.

But

when it comes to looks of a physique, like we discussed with like how our legs seem to just look smaller through all these different

situations that we were in,

I mean, you know, most of the things that we have here is empirical data and anecdotal evidence.

So when it comes to the greeny thing, it's hard to say, but I think there is something,

I think there's something like pretty valuable to derive from that when it comes to just trying to lift heavy and progress.

Because in my personal opinion, the whole Dr.

Mike type of

training Jared hates it when whenever we all call it methodologies because he's like, I'm literally just

fucking just teaching science.

But

I just think there's so much improvement that a lot of bodybuilders can make by focusing on the

stretch, doing stretch-mediated hypertrophy.

I think there's just so much more tension and load that is placed.

There's just, there's so much more tension that's placed on the specific muscle you're trying to train without having a total load on your body, which obviously decreases your fatigue over time, you know, and your, the level of effect on your CNS.

And this is something I personally realize has made a massive difference in my legs.

Like my legs have blown up in the last two years, the most out of anything else in my body.

And that's because now I'm no longer going to the squat rack to rep out four plates for eight or ten reps as hard as I can.

Instead, I'm focusing on doing a full stretch on the leg press, doing a full stretch as a slow eccentric on the leg extension with stretch-mediated hypertrophy methods, you know, like leaning back, making sure that my knees are as

inflection as possible.

And these things have all contributed to me feeling less fatigue over time,

but

just so much more stimulus in the muscle I'm trying to train.

So

I think that's super important.

But then on the other side, there's a lot of science-based guys that are just focusing so much on that that I noticed they don't really focus as much on going to failure or even past failure in the times where it is beneficial for you.

I think it kind of kills the argument.

It's like if you take one person who only trains like, let's say, optimally, right, but they have fuck all intensity because they're so worried about their form, they're not going to grow a whole lot.

Whereas if you then take the opposite extreme, someone who's only worried about intensity, like maybe I was when I was like 17, 18,

training really fucking hard, range of motion is not the best.

They're still going to grow more than the person who's training with like zero intensity and perfect range of motion.

But it's not black and white.

You can just do both.

Like if you take that perfect range of motion and then apply that intensity, I feel like it's it's a winning combination you can't really go wrong with that but it's that's kind of it's difficult to do obviously like i hate to say it's a skill but it's a little bit of a skill in terms of being able to do that whilst also pushing yourself to failure but when you can do that like as you know you said there with your legs like you're going to blow up because you're doing everything science says that you should do to build muscle and you're doing to failure with intensity which a lot of people struggle with because nobody actually knows what their true failure is.

Everyone thinks they do, but they don't really.

But when you can get that, that's when you're going to grow the most, I feel.

And that's, yeah, what I learned this offseason.

You see it with everybody.

When they finally learn how to do that, it's like, bang, they just go.

Yeah, totally agree.

Did you hear that?

Did you hear that conversation, that little debate on Foods podcast about skill?

About bodybuilding being a skill.

The never-end, never-ending debate.

It's so funny.

Oh, shit.

Yeah, I know.

It's kind of hard to call it a skill, but honestly, the training portion for sure, 100% is a skill that you have to acquire.

And then everything else in bodybuilding is not, for sure.

it's just phones except for the posing posing is pretty sick but yeah but posing is just like fucking dancing if you're gonna call dancing a skill which it is i guess posing is then as well so

yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah yeah

um

uh

but uh

i i've noticed for me too though even like after training for i don't know 15 plus years it's still hard to get to the place where you're like perfect form stretch protecting your joints and also going as heavy as possible.

It's still fucking difficult, but I've noticed that for me personally, it's been easier.

I don't know if you have any methods that you've incorporated for yourself, but for me personally,

I've noticed that for most of my sets, I will focus on perfect form, slow eccentrics, stretch.

time-winter tension, all the things necessary.

But for the first couple sets, as I work up to my max set where I try to PR weight, by the time I hit my PR, there's this comfortable amount of like swing and like

form breaking that isn't too crazy where it's out of control, but just a comfortable amount that I can hit every single time that I try to PR on my weight.

So it's like every time I PR on something like a leg press or a chest press, whatever it is,

it's like that PR set and maybe the one before it that's that's working up to that are the two sets that I can break form a little bit and I can go hard and try to make sure that I'm PRing for the sake of hitting a higher number, hitting, you know, increasing my strength.

And then the rest of the workout and the rest of the sets, I'm focusing purely on engaging the muscle group and not

letting my ego get the better.

And it's a powerful thing.

Yeah, because you're fine.

You have that top set where you're still

almost overdoing it on the intensity a little bit to make sure you've got it.

And then you've ticked that box.

It's then like the back off set.

You can almost focus a little bit more on the other extreme where it's like, make sure you're getting maximum fucking stretch.

And you're just spending as much time in that, you know, lengthened position rinsing it for everything it's worth.

And you then, you know, after you step away from that exercise, you've literally hit both to their extreme and done them both.

And it's like learning that balance is what's difficult.

because you know it probably took you time to get to that point where you knew how much not momentum but how much like movement was enough to get the intensity without detracting from the range of motion.

Yeah.

And it's trying to explain that to somebody like brand new in the gym is like, fucking impossible.

They've just got to learn it.

There's a go.

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I know this is kind of a weird question, but have you happened to find like a certain rep range work for you?

Or do you feel like

it's hard?

I think I used to do more six to eight for a top set, but this last offset I sort of found that's too low.

I don't really like to go anywhere below eight now.

Um, anywhere

probably 10 to 12 is like especially now in prep, is definitely the sweet spot for me.

Um, 10 to 12 and then you know, a 15-ish maybe on the back off is what I've got a lot more from.

Yeah, probably around there.

It's kind of hard.

It's tons of the exercise, but yeah, check it out.

Do you ever feel like have you ever felt like you have genetics to be strong?

Or like if you wanted to be a powerlifter, you might be good at it?

Probably, yeah.

Yeah, certainly especially when I was younger.

But I don't have any like

bad passion for that anymore.

I think I just snap in half or injure myself or, you know, something.

And it's, yeah so yeah I think I probably could I did get quite strong

but it was almost then became detrimental to bodybuilding to be that strong because it's like every set would take 20 minutes to work up to the top set you do the top set and it's like you just fucked after like doing a set of hack squat had like I think I've got eight plates on the the original microcorn cybex um

which is fast what like that's fucked

doing that now would my quads would tear for sure

um

and it it just it it built big legs for the time being but i don't think it was the best way to do it for bodybuilding and certainly not longevity wise like if i was doing that at 20 like when i'm 30 what the i'm meant to do you know oh yeah so it's like at some point i had to kind of transition away from that and i think nick walker spoke about that before as well because i think he was crazy strong at one point and he then transitioned more so i think he does work with

Jared now and does a very different style of training to what he used to just because he got to the point where his physique it wasn't going to be beneficial for his physique or his career to carry on training the way he did because there was nowhere to go right um and so making that that switch is kind of what i've learned to go through not quite to the same degree to like that same extreme but eventually potentially like i may do the exact same you know i'm keen to see

more of like mike and jared stuff and next office i probably might even reach out to jared um

and just get him to take over everything just to because i just love the this shit at the end of the day as well.

I just want to experience different things and try different things.

And I am my own experiment at times.

And I've always done my own training.

So even with my coach now, it's like we discuss it, but it's like, I do my own training.

I just let him know what I'm doing.

And he's like, sound.

And even with like food, he just sets macros.

And I just send him a meal plan.

And he's like, yeah, all good.

Let's change this.

But we've worked together for so long that we're just happy.

We know how it goes.

Food doesn't change.

Obviously, it's not the same.

Meals, obviously, it's not prep.

It's just different quantities now.

So it's been that way for years.

Yeah, dude.

I think you should definitely reach out to Jared because

they, dude, I just, my training, my best training session, I actually said this on a, hopefully the podcast with Kyle and Jared that I'm hopefully going to post by tomorrow.

But

Jared...

and Dr.

Mike put me through this workout and it was just the best hour-long chest workout I've ever had in my entire life.

And I was sore for like four days afterwards, which just fucking blew my mind, which is crazy because it's like you would think, oh, maybe more volume is going to induce some kind of stimulus like that.

But no, it was simply just the training style that we incorporated.

Whether or not the soreness is a better signification of just the stimulus to grow, I don't know, but it fucking felt like it, you know?

And also

it felt a lot better for my joints, too.

And I think that's the most important part is because as I get older and older and older, I keep getting more and more injuries.

Like, I have this

femaculacular.

I don't fucking, it's the longest word.

It's um, it's basically

a form of hip impingement.

Yeah, it's a form of hip impingement.

It's called uh the shortcut is FAI.

Um, and then

different shoulder impingements.

And it's like, these are things that, like, if I don't work on mobility,

if I don't work on, um,

if I don't work on lessening any potential stimulus to injuring it further through my range of motion with a lot of load, and if I don't focus on

doing some kind of like therapy and like stretching mobility exercises, then I'm probably going to have to get some like a hip.

I'm probably going to have to have surgery or like a hip replacement or something crazy in the future.

So, I mean, it's like at this point, what's the point in just driving yourself with crazy loads if it's going to hurt your your long term and you just don't know how your body's going to react five years from now

yeah no absolutely

so yeah i'll definitely be keen i'll need i need to put me in contact with jared for the offseason

have you guys ever speak up never spoiled by room nah no i'll just watch all the stuff and just fanboy so

that's awesome bro he's gonna yeah he'll he'll love to be in contact with you because i'm sure i'm he's a fan of of he's a huge fan of bodybuilding and i know he's gonna think i know he probably does think right now that your physique is absolutely fucking nuts

that'd be sick yeah

um

what do you feel like has given you the most anxiety in your journey up till now just everything included even things that people won't discuss very often uh

such a big question i don't know different things at every different point i guess like

Because like my first prep, I started in 6-4, which is like college, I guess, A-levels.

so it's like doing that was work I was working night shift at the supermarket whilst trying to prep whilst trying to do my A-levels it's like

the biggest stress wasn't prep at that time it was fucking night shifts at A-levels prep was the the fun part the distraction and then fast forward to now this prep it's like

if you think about it it's like

with this pressure I think right now it's just

It's not pressure from sponsors, but it's like these guys, like people just see sponsors as brands, right?

People just think ESN is like an entity, pay me, but it's like there's people behind this brand who I've got a really good personal relationship with who I really like, and they really want the best for me and support me.

Um, and it's like it's not pressure from them, but it's me not wanting to let them down is almost probably the biggest pressure on me, not the pressure I put on myself because I'm it's what I said earlier, I'm confident in my own ability to do everything in my power to bring my best.

And if that's not, if that's not good enough, I have the self-awareness to know that somebody was just better than me.

And I can't be upset at that.

But I don't want to let these people down who are investing in me, who are supporting me.

Same for followers and guys who, you know,

even like yourself, giving me this opportunity to come on here and, you know, have that platform

is massively appreciated.

And I don't want to do this and then almost underperform

to, you know, reflect poorly on your podcast to a degree.

It's like that sort of stuff this time around has probably been the biggest pressure, anxiety causer.

But in the same breath, it's like it's what Chris has always said.

It's like pressure is a privilege.

I'd rather feel this pressure and have this opportunity to be on this podcast than not be on it at all and just prep.

So it's looking at it through that perspective

doesn't relieve it, but certainly helps.

So yeah, I think right now that's probably it.

Other preps, it's always been whatever going on at the time.

So

we can't really ramble because I should only remember the positives, obviously.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

I think that's a really good perspective because

just the entire, the entire

existence of bodybuilding is the weirdest thing to me and how much we love it.

But I think out of everything in my life, the weird thing is I think because I care the most about it,

so many aspects of it give me the most anxiety.

Um,

there's a lot of things I want to ask, but honestly, if you're down, let's just jump to the QA.

And

take time, I'm good for a few more, whatever.

I'm feeling good, I'm enjoying it.

So,

oh, yeah, cool, cool, cool.

Um,

pretty, um, pretty emphy asked, why pick this sport?

That's a good question.

Uh,

i just fell into it and loved it and then was able to make it a career so i guess i don't know if it i don't want to say it's chose me because that's fucking cliche shit but like

i i loved it i did it and then was able to monetize it so here we are why would i not do it because i love it so

i don't know yeah i just fell in love with it i guess How much

how much of like that content were you watching?

So you said you got injured like around the age of 16?

Yeah, like 15, 16 is when I started.

And cool, he just goes to the gym.

I'm assuming that's when you were still like living with your family at the time, maybe?

Yeah, I was still living home.

I was still doing GCCs at the time.

I was, yeah, I was young.

So, like, everything, everything, every day was just always David Lade.

Like, that was when he was at his, like, I don't want to say prime, but that's when it was like peak OG, David Lade, should we say.

And

that whole scene at the time was like, that was when I think fitness YouTube was really like

like at its biggest almost from certainly my perspective anyway so that's the time i was like remember like reflect back on nostalgically um but yeah everything i was watching everything i was doing was just watching that buying someone's program trying out at the gym with my mates and it was just such a hobby it was like my

like

All my mates at the time, it wasn't like, oh, let's just go out all the time.

It wasn't like, you know, certain groups of people, they just lived for like the weekend just to go out drinking.

It's He's like, No, we were just waiting for school to finish that we could go to the gym and just trade arms every day and one rent max deadlift every day.

That was the fucking all we spoke about all day.

Like, oh, what are you training tonight?

Yeah, it's like one rent max deadlift again.

It's like, yeah, it's like, I do three plates the day before and then just can't work out why I can't do three plates again, even though I just did it yesterday.

But it's like, I'm fatigued as fuck, I'm not gonna rest day for three weeks.

But I didn't know that at the time, so

yeah, that was just it.

Um,

is there a

you said you mentioned Ryan Terry was something that you really enjoyed watching.

What else kind of got you into the space of competing?

I know you kind of just decided to do a show 16, 17 years old, but like what kind of really sparked to that for you?

I think

from memory, it was I was just watching Ryan and I knew that he had been to the Olympia.

I knew he was an IFPB pro and I remember googling like I was on the bus and all that from the gym and talking like how to turn IFBB Pro.

Then in the UK, it was like you have to compete with this federation called Two Bros and win a show there.

And it was like, look at all that.

And I was looking at the picture of the guys that were winning these shows.

And I was like, because I was naturally 16, and I was like, fucking hell, they're huge.

So then it was like, right, if I want to compete, and as I said earlier, like I touched on it briefly, I moved from the south of England to the north of England.

Because my dad moved, so I moved up with him.

And it was

just before like Pete moved at the pretty much the start of summer.

So we all moved up there just as I finished my GCCs.

So I was up there for summer, didn't know anybody anybody in the area, had nothing else to do, and was just like, might as well just prep for a show.

I've got nothing else going on, might as well just do it and see, gives me something to do.

Um, and so that was it.

And then ended up meeting um Danny, who then went on to be my best mate and still is, like, because he was on prep at the time, he competed before.

So then he took over, and I was, you know, training with him.

He was helping me for the show.

did that first season and just fucking loved it and then it just kind of spiraled and continued from there and snowballed.

So

yeah, I just sort of watched Ryan do it, googled natural bodybuilding show, and then just edit it and went for it.

And then the rest was just kind of like one thing after another just led to it and progressed through.

Yeah.

How many shows did you do in total so far?

15.

I've done like quite a few, but majority were like

different federations to NPC slash IFBB.

They were just much smaller, much worse.

Like Junior Men's Physique, Men's Physique.

Did like Junior men's physique at the arnold one year and open i've done like amateur olympias in italy and men's physique and then it was 2022 was the first year i tried classic so i did men's physique and classic physique at a pro qualifier um still placed slightly higher in men's physique that year because i had like quite a good men's physique front shot but my back was so fucking shit and it's because men's physique was only two poses like i'd always be you know near the top of my class from the front then you'd face the back and it'd be like yeah fucking get out of the center um

so it was like after that season it was pretty clear because i did have quite good legs it was like yeah if i'm ever going to turn pro it's you know you look at men's physique it's two poses i'm always losing one of them you're not going to turn pro whereas classic physique there's like what seven or nine poses it's like sure i may lose the back shots if i win every other one i can still mathematically then turn pro so that was the the natural progression and it just very quickly developed the the physique definitely grew into classic and i i suited that much more than the very next year, after doing one full of season four classic, I did one regional show, one the overall, one pro qualifier, and one the overall, and that was it.

Gotcha.

So I see.

That's just, that's fucking shogging to me because I feel like your back looks fucking sick.

Not to mention like the shape and like how massive your lats are, bro.

It's fucking, it's just ridiculous.

It's just, yeah, I think it's just the density.

I think, yeah, it may be, it may be good enough now, and I may be being too hard on myself because I think we always are going to be hard on ourselves.

And I think the minute you like, if I was sat here thinking my back was great, I probably wouldn't be training my back as hard, and then eventually it wouldn't be great because other people be training hard and get better than me.

So

I think to always be hard on yourself is probably a fucking good thing.

But I may step on stage just here, and it may be a lot better than I think.

If it is, fantastic.

I don't mind.

I've shit myself all prepped because it was still good in the end.

But I think it's still going to just lack

density and it needs more muscle and detail to be a pro level pack um

but it's come up a hell of a lot since the the amateur ones so you know he's he's definitely progressing um but i think it's still pretty useful time have lats always been a strength for you like ever since the beginning or is that something like you maybe you worked on a little bit more focused more on as you were competing in men's physique maybe as you transitioned classic

They definitely grew a lot.

They were always quite good in men's physiques.

My front shot, that's why my front shot was so good because I had the small waist and the sort of flaring lats.

How small is your waist, by the way, do you know?

Not small enough.

But I don't know.

It's probably like

27, 28.

If I pull a vacuum, something like that.

Yeah, that's tiny.

Yeah, it's

yeah.

In the offseason, it's not tiny.

254, it certainly

wasn't down there, but right now I think it's somewhere like that, yeah.

Gotcha.

Sorry, I interrupted you, though.

You were saying about your lats, like it grew a lot.

Right.

Yeah, I think they've got certainly a lot thicker.

Um,

since

I'd be able to isolate them and actually connect with them and, you know, do that full stretch and, you know, single arm up pull down, that sort of stuff, like that has worked massively well for them.

So from the front, they've always been strong, but I think they've always been aided by the fact my waist is so small that they then look bigger in comparison.

Gotcha.

Is that the is that like your main,

is that like your favorite exercise to do for lats or are there any other exercise that you feel like?

So every single pool session, every single pool session, it will be start with some form of single arm or vertical lat work whilst they're fresh, whilst I can drive a really good connection to them.

Sure of those first, then go into the heavier bent over rows after.

I love that.

That's really dope.

Yeah.

My issue is I get

my single arms have always been the best way to grow my lats.

So, people would always ask me how I grew my lats.

And in my honest opinion, I'd say, honestly, it's really just genetics.

But I do have, I have really like mentally focused a lot on growing my lats ever since I was young.

Because the first coach I ever had would literally tell all of us athletes, lats, lats, lats.

That's the most important thing for you.

I don't know.

That was just his perspective.

Maybe it's because he trained a lot of men's physique athletes.

I was about to spill some men's physique athletes, and I don't want to like, I don't want to put anyone in Blasso.

Um,

but um,

the single arm work was always the best for me and for, I think, a lot of the athletes there too.

And I think it's just because I don't really know why, to be honest.

I can't explain if it's because of the range of motion or the focus.

I think probably just because of the arm path that you can really focus on.

Because if you're doing like a dual thing, you kind of get stuck here.

But if you're doing single arm, it kind of allows you to open up, get that stretch, and then drive the open in an actual punch down to your pocket.

Whereas, if you're trying to do that, like a neutral bar here, it's like people just can't do it, so they're leaning back and then just pulling to the upper back.

But if you then get on a single arm, it's like it allows you to really drive that connection, and that's probably why people find it a little bit easier just mentally because they can even fucking touch the lat and feel it like a squeeze.

I guess, yeah, it's 100% easier mentally.

Um, I think the only thing that I do as an alternative whenever I'm getting lazy and I don't want to do the single arm and alternate each one is: uh, have you ever tried those hoist lat pull-down pull-down machines?

How How do you feel about those?

Some of them I like.

I think the fact they all move is stupid.

It's a bit of a gimmick.

But like the actual pathway for it is fantastic.

And the resistance profile is fantastic.

It's like, could you just not make it stationary?

Because what you'll see with a lot of the hoist machines as well is people will get on it.

And then, you know, they've got like little foot plates on the hoist machine.

Yeah.

They'll just like the press, especially, they'll just put their feet on the floor and then push through the floor.

And it's like, that has just given given you leverage to then move the machine

because they're not using the hoist machine, how the hoist machine is intended to be used.

So, then a lot of people just cheat with them as well.

So,

I think, yeah,

they look cool.

I don't like moving in the set, it makes it harder for me to like stabilize.

So, I'd prefer like something else, but they, the, the, the, I know the single arm pulled out or dual arm pull down, you can use it before as well.

I know the one you're on about, I have used those.

The the ring, the um, resistance profile is really nice, and the size of of the arm path.

Yeah.

Yeah,

for the hoist pull down, I really do like the path.

It just feels so much better for my personal structure as well.

And

unlike a normal lat pull down with a bar, my left shoulder doesn't pop when I'm using that.

And I think it's just purely the path that it moves through.

The swing-in is a little weird.

Kind of reminds me of the playground.

yeah it's like those you know those like body weight ones that you just find like the parks and shit yeah where it's like you use your own body weight to like move yourself it's like them that's what it reminds me of

oh shit um

so you said you did 15 shows and uh you started off with some natural shows um if you don't mind me asking like was there any like

Like what was the time

point in time that you realized for yourself, like,

oh shit, like, if I want to keep doing this, then the rest of the people I'm competing against are on PEDs.

And that's probably something that I

have to like accept.

That, that first natural show I did, it was basically like the, because this was the year of

2020, you know, the year where everything was closed down.

I don't know if I can say the word because I don't want your podcast to get flat or anything, but it was that going on.

So there wasn't a lot of shows on.

And this was like the UK international final for this natural federation.

So it was the biggest natural show show there was in the UK at the time.

And I was 17 or doing men's physique, one junior and then won the overall.

So off the back of that, it's like, it's your first ever show.

You've won the biggest natural show there is in the UK.

Where do you go from here?

If you stay natural, do you just win it again?

That's not very fun for the next 15 years.

So then I did the untested show the week after or two weeks after,

beat assisted guys there.

It's like, okay, very realistic.

You've got the genetics you've know that you can stick to a diet.

You know you can prep because I was fucking peeled and you know you enjoy it.

It's like

if you want to make a career from this you're gonna have to go assisted and again it goes back to what I said at the very start where I was very very fortunate to have met the people I did at the age I did because you hear all these horror stories about first cycles and people doing idiotic shit because they just don't know any better right I was very lucky that I just knew I did blood work first right my first cycle was like 200 milligrams of of test D and that was it.

And I grew a hell of a fucking lot with very, well, pretty much no side effects, quote unquote, no side effects.

And ever since it's been so, so minimal that I've got the absolute most I could have out of as little as possible because of having the knowledge and the guidance from such a young age and then being so obsessed with the sport as well that I'm like.

All I do all day is listen to podcasts and watch different videos.

And there's so much knowledge out there like with

J3U and I've, you know, all that sort of stuff.

It's like,

because I'm actually passionate about this, like, I just love learning about it.

And there's you just learn from people who have been there and made the fucking mistakes that you don't have to.

Um,

and to have that all at such a young age and gone through all that, that's why I'm so fortunate and so content with the decision I did make at the time until when I did go assisted that I wouldn't go back and do it in any other way because I truly believe I did it the best way I possibly could have.

Um, if I waited a few years, would it potentially have been better?

Sure.

But I wouldn't be where I am right now if I did that.

So

I wouldn't do it any other way.

So, yeah.

I was doing battle that first season, naturally.

And after that was when I went to the dark side.

Yeah.

Bro, it's honestly really clear at fucking the ripe age of 22 years old of how much you've like encompassed yourself in like learning about bodybuilding.

Because I don't think there's very many people around your age that can really discuss these topics or really have this much focus on simply

the

minute details of something such as like literally how to like maintain the shape and what body part you want when you're going on your show you know um and that obviously comes also with like the 15 shows of experience but it's like these things like there's people that compete with coaches that i've spoken to that

don't have any clue about anything about bodybuilding and they just listen to what the coach says.

And then there's people like you, of course, too, that encompass themselves with these podcasts and with these

teachers and

people who create YouTube videos that have some good credible information that I think makes a big difference in the athlete.

Because like as my coach says,

I already talked about this, so I guess it's revealed, but my coach is Patrick Tor.

And as he states too,

one of the things that makes me feel better that he

expresses is like there's not very many logical bodybuilders out there.

Or at least it seems like there's a less, a smaller percentage of logical, logical athletes when it comes to the bodybuilding

area.

And

it, in my opinion, can provide

an athlete that can make really good decisions for his future and thus obviously yield a much better potential future.

And

yeah, I think it's just important because, you know, you never really know.

I mean, you've had a lot of experience with your coach, but there's a lot of people that, for example, they'll jump in with a coach and they don't know what's wrong or what's right, you know?

Yeah.

And they won't know what's right for them because, you know, we got to tailor things for ourselves.

So that's pretty dope.

Also, something that I like discussing, though, is

a lot of people discuss doses, but I think it's been clear from all the experts I've talked to that it's just the time.

required to build the muscle mass, right?

Like you can

you can blast, I don't know, you can take 300 milligrams of tests or like some people, you can try to just suddenly take open bodybuilder doses of 1.2 grams of tests at once or even more, see how fast you gain muscle.

But in the long run, like how much more muscle will people really gain, maybe five extra pounds instead of the 10 pounds that year?

But for what cost, you know, like if you want to gain, if you want to become an open bodybuilder and you have 100 pounds of muscle to gain, and I can say this because Nick Walker is my height.

However, he's 100 pounds more than me.

He's 300 pounds at what fucking like an inch shorter than me.

That's crazy.

That would take me

realistically

probably five to ten years of just straight muscle building.

It's not five to ten grams, you know, it's five to ten years.

It's a lot of food, mate.

You get to get to bolt for a long time, you'll enjoy it.

Getting send it for real.

Men message Patrick after this.

Patrick, mate, we're fucking going to open.

I'm not stopping till I'm £300.

That actually reminds me, one of the questions here

is

what the fuck is it?

Oh, Matt Jace asks, with you being so young and already close to your weight cap in classic,

Do you think you'll ever move to open?

I get asked this question so often.

It's so hard to answer because I am so young and like I never thought I'd leave Benz was eat and now I'm in classic.

I think the honest answer is if I can

be a top 10 classic guy, I will always do what I can to stay classic.

If that means fucking

I don't think

I know I'm not Chris Barnes to the level where I can just fuck about for three months after the Olympia and then just you know just not do anything and then get back on on and start training again for the next Olympia, just so he doesn't, you know, grow too much.

But

they obviously, like, you look at like Urs, for example, Urs could so easily go to open, but he just, you know, keeps food relatively low, keeps cardio in, and does all these things just to stay in classic.

If I can get to the level where I am, you know, a top 10 guy in classic, I would like to stay classic for a number of reasons.

I love the division, I love the look, I like the fact it's a bit of a condition game, and I just do not have to push drugs that hard to,

you know, know,

have this level of size to be in classic.

Whereas if I was to go open,

you have to push the envelope.

Yeah.

I don't want to have to do that.

I also don't, you know, I think a lot of the health risks just come from body weight in general of

spending.

You know, me at 300 pounds is not healthy.

I don't really want to ever be 300 pounds because fucking I was like at 240, 254.

It was uncomfortable enough.

Yeah.

And like, yeah, I love open.

I'm a fan of it.

I love training and I love eating.

So put those things together.

Like, yeah, sure.

If

I get to the top of the classic weight cap, I'm killing myself to make weight and I'm still not very competitive in classic at the level I want to be.

It probably makes sense that, yeah, okay, the natural progression, I'm going to have to go open because I'm not going to get anywhere in classic.

I'm not winning shows in classic and I'm killing myself to make weight.

If that ever becomes the case, then yeah, I'll go to open.

But fingers crossed, that never does become the case.

So if I can stay classic, I'll stay classic, but only if I can be competitive and be happy with that.

And if I'm not happy with where I am in classic, then yeah, sure, I'll go to open.

KST Myo asks favorite pose to hit and why?

Favorite classic, maybe is probably one of the favorite poses, or the like three-quarter side try.

But favourite pose to probably like hit and hold is just like a side chest because it's just fucking easy.

And it's not, you're not coming up and even

I can just sit in a side chest and like actually catch my breath.

But like favorite-looking pose to hit would probably be like a favorite classic or three-quarter side try, yeah.

Which favorite classic is your favorite pose?

Oh, you could take up,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Look at that, yeah,

but yours is savage, bro.

That's a good pose on you, dude.

Thank you.

Yeah, I mean, you know which ones are the are the great poses for you.

It's clear.

That one in the front lat spread look fucking filthy.

Filthy, dude.

Thank you.

Jose Baybarra asks,

the boy, he asks, what advice would you give to young aspiring bodybuilders?

Oh, so like generic, isn't it?

It's like I would get a coach that is reputable and you can learn from because otherwise you're just going to be wasting time making mistakes that have been made before.

You don't need to do that.

It depends how young as well, but

don't fucking main game.

If If you actually want to build some muscle, build some muscle, do an off-season, get comfortable being uncomfortable within reason, with guidance from an intelligent coach and a reputable coach.

And yeah, just train fucking properly.

Sounds easy to be said, but like, you know, what we were speaking about earlier, like

find what works for you and then just do it.

And it's going to take time.

So don't try and rush it.

Just love the process.

Enjoy the process for what it is.

And a lot of young guys at the minute, I think they just do bodybuilding because they want to be on stage and they want, you know, 100,000 followers and they just want that aspect.

And it's like, you're never going to get to the point where you've got that aspect because it takes so long to get there.

Like, yes, I'm only 22, but I've done 15 shows.

I've been bodybuilding for five years.

Three and a half, four of those years.

It was just, I was just doing it for me.

And it was, there was nothing, there was no return on it.

It was so fucking expensive.

And it was so demanding and draining on everything else in my life.

But I was doing it just because I fucking loved it.

And I still would do it even now if I was still in that same position.

I'd still be doing this because I just fucking love it.

Whereas a lot of people nowadays, I feel, do it just because they think the end goal is what they want and they'll just get there really quick, but you won't.

So just do it because you love the fucking process and fall in love with that aspect and focus on that aspect.

And then the rest is going to come after doing that for years.

Yeah, that's good advice.

I think the 100% most important thing for people to remember, of course, like you said,

along with the process is like,

I think people tend to forget that the ones that do want to focus on getting the followers of the audience, it doesn't come from you getting the pro card.

It doesn't come from you getting the title.

These are forms of credibility and they do help, but they're not things that are going to jump

your following.

There's a lot of people with pro cards that are successful that have zero following because they don't understand how to present themselves.

They don't understand how to provide value in ways that.

resonate with your audience.

You got to focus more on like, who do you want to be and what do you want to present yourself as and what value what you want to give during the process of you becoming that olympian or whatever you know for sure and then when by the time you reach there all the people that are supporting you are gonna explode you know explode extra kind of like c bum but like you look at someone like c bum bro this guy was so good at his content from the very beginning man crisp the best youtube videos the way he even presented his physique before he became mr olympia on his instagram from his videos were awesome it looked phenomenal made people get really excited about his potential, you know.

Like the way you post your, your workout videos and like the reels that you have are fucking awesome, man.

The posing, it's it's it's fucking epic.

Um,

and then Sam Sullock, for example, finally did his first competition, you know, prime example, yeah.

He's like, Yeah, he did it every

opposite way around to what most people think.

It's like people think, oh, you've got to get on stage and do it all first to get then the following.

He's like one of the most popular guys, and he was just a guy filming his stuff, providing value through authenticity.

That was all it was yeah you see what that transitioned into so it's fine yeah

uh

oh and also um along the lines of the advice i like what you said there i think that all goes in line with something that you clearly have done for yourself which is educate yourself and um yeah i think that's probably one of the most important things that someone can do for themselves because just like you said helps you make sure you don't make mistakes make sure you know how to train properly my mistake when i was training is i always went too hard went to failure in every set and didn't eat enough calories.

So, where did that all go?

To fucking nothing but

my CNS.

So,

you figure that stuff up beforehand, and then you don't have to make those mistakes, and you have more productive, uh, more productive five years than I did.

Um,

Cal

Cal Mueller asks tips for digestion.

That's a good question.

A digestive enzyme.

I like raved on about these for fucking years now.

Regardless of brands, regardless of sponsors, I think generally speaking with a digestive enzyme, you get what you pay for.

If you go on Amazon, you get a cheap one.

It's not going to be good.

The ones with the high price point, typically, they are actually just going to be better,

generally speaking.

But yeah, digestive enzyme, I think, for the off-season, that's one of the things that made the biggest difference for me being able to eat because everything just was so much better.

Obvious, but food sources.

And, you know,

to really dumb it down, like if you are a young guy who just thinks, oh, I need a big off-season.

I'm not going to main gain.

I'm going to push it.

And they just start eating Costco muffins.

It's like, sure, calories are really high.

But if you eat one Costco muffin, it's not going to digest very quickly because of the high fats and everything like that.

You're not going to be hungry for hours after eating one of those.

Whereas if you ate the same calories from the chicken and rice, Sure, eating that one meal may be a little bit more challenging because it's slightly higher in volume.

But two hours after, that shit's digested, you're hungry again, you're able to eat another one and another one.

And then by the end of the day, you've got way more food in.

It's all digested, been utilized, up, taken way more efficiently.

It's way better sources of food.

So it's going to lead to way more growth and your digestion sound.

And it's just infinitely better.

So food sources, quality food sources, meal timings, and then also just expenditure on top of that.

Like if you just hit your step count, sounds so obvious, but like try and do an off-season where you're not doing, like you're doing like 3,000 steps a day and trying to put away five thousand calories and then do an off season where you're doing 10k steps a day and putting away 5 000 calories literally 10k steps it sounds so simple yet will make such a difference such a difference crazy bro yeah it's it's wild so yeah general expenditure a digestive enzyme and make sure the sources of food you're eating are clean and work for your light body you can digest well and you'll be sound yeah i don't say this very often but i won my pro card by going to raves so it was very helpful getting your steps in.

30k steps.

Yeah.

Learned that from John Jewett, you know?

Steps, lower fatigue, drinking prep.

Yeah, for sure.

And I'd say if you guys want to get your digestion good, you know, maybe just eat some pizza and Taco Bell once a month.

Really builds a tolerance for your system, you know.

Food variety.

Pizza is good.

Half my food has been built on pizza, so I

can't fault it.

You had some good tips.

Yeah, listen to Austin Stout for like some specifics If you guys are curious, have you ever listened to Austin Stout's stuff?

I've not known.

I might have done, but I can't remember.

Yeah, you should

check him out.

He's fucking awesome, man.

We're going to have a second podcast soon.

But he's who

lots of the coaches and bodybuilders I look up to have all learned from him or had him as a coach, which is super fucking cool.

And his proponent of his education that I think is the most important.

Like you listen to, like,

like people go to like Milos for insulin, for example.

People tend to go to Austin Stout when it comes to digestion and GI health for bodybuilding.

He just knows so much about it.

So, like, um, Kyle Wilkes learned has uh listened to a lot of his education stuff.

Um, Terrence Ruffin was coached by Austin for a period of time.

There's just like a lot of people that I know that have looked up to Austin.

So, yeah, sick, very smart guy.

Um,

I hope you're okay with this podcast of us just blowing up your head, but uh, there's like three people that are saying that, like, no question, but you could be the next C-bum.

Yeah,

it's such a compliment, it's such a compliment, but I disagree so fucking strongly when people say it because it's like there is no next C-bum.

That's just not

a thing.

It's not a possibility, right?

It's Chris is Chris.

You cannot replicate that no matter who you are, how much you want to, it's not going to happen.

Like, Chris isn't the next Arnold.

Chris was the next Chris.

Arnold was never replicated.

Chris will never be replicated.

Like,

I may become me eventually, and like, that may be fantastic.

Will it ever be Chris's level?

Let's be realistic.

No, it's very flattering that people think there's the potential there to be that, but it's being realistic.

It's, you know, nobody's filling those boots.

It's not possible.

But I appreciate the sentiment that's given with that.

It's like a serious compliment the biggest compliment you can get in this sport So yeah, I'm very grateful for it, but let's be honest.

It's not possible guys

Fucking sick.

I remember you know Stefan NFC I think he had a comment on one of his posts too.

Someone was saying something like that and he responded in the same way.

He was like honestly man like I think a comment like this could really hurt me more than help me because of the things you discussed, whatever.

For sure.

But,

you know, making sure that he still understands that he has so many places to grow.

But

it's a good perspective to have because that's one that I have to, it's one that I agree in and remind myself every day that I release all expectations.

You know, the

saying expectations is suffering.

It's something that I kind of hold very close and true because

it really helps me relieve my

pressure on the goal and rather focus more on the process.

Um, and also helps me whenever, like, the last, like, I took, it took me nine shows to turn pro.

So, like,

and it was five nationals, so for like three nationals in a row, you know, I was getting like 16th plus place.

Uh, and when you really hope that you get your pro card, there's really nothing more depressing than getting literally not placed, you know?

Yeah, for sure.

So, uh, I think releasing the expectations, but just focusing to a better you has been like the best mindset for my personal self yeah i agree 100

um

daltz tomlin asks what is there to do

what is there to do it rotherham apart from ultraflex

so yeah this is a good question mate there's not a lot so i live it's where i live a place in the uk is called rotherham um

it's not the nicest but it's an interesting place so i literally moved here for this gym so i moved out for my parents.

Um, and I used to commute here.

I used to drive an hour and a half to this gym and then drive an hour and a half home back to my parents.

Did that for a while, and it was actually about six weeks out last prep that I just thought, fuck this drive.

I'm just going to rent a house in Rotherham.

So, I'm next to the gym, and I've been here since.

Um,

there is literally nothing here apart from this gym.

It's a I don't want to say it is a shithole.

It is a complete shithele, this like

wrapped here, but for me, it's fucking fantastic, right?

Because because the rent's pretty cheap like for what i get like i've got a full fucking four-bed family house for like a really decent price if i went to like manchester or london i'd be paying this for like a one-bed studio apartment or whatever um so it's great get loads of space decent price right everything's pretty cheap fucking supermarkets and that's pretty cheap I don't do anything except sit in my house, work from my computer, and then go to the gym.

And there's a fucking phenomenal gym.

So Bestram in the UK.

So it's great for me.

But yeah, people like come from like europe and stuff to rotherham just to go to this gym and then they're like experiencing the uk but there's like there's like one hotel in rotherham and then like a big tesco which is like a big supermarket like a walmart that's fucking it yeah there's a store and there's a gym so fucking it's like a lot of knife crime

a lot of knife crime is crazy

dude like a hundred times have i heard literally like the best bodybuilders you've created by literally having nothing to do

well i don't think we want anything to do i think we just want to eat our meals live in a box and go to the gym we're all like like me especially i am so massively introverted

like

probably on a spectrum somewhere because i i can spend time by myself and have no issues with it i absolutely do not mind it does not bother me in fact i probably prefer it 99 of the time so just being by myself training doing work eating my meals watching some youtube watching some podcasts that's me i'm sort of happy life so i think that's probably the case for most bodybuilders because it is such like it's not a team sport, it is and it isn't.

Like, you know, there's a lot of camaraderie because everybody's fucking sound in this industry for the most part, like everybody's class.

But at the end of the day, it's you eating the meals, it's you training, and it's you doing the recovery.

Like, it's a 24/7 sport, and it's always you that's doing that a lot of the time by yourself.

So, it's like if you're not comfortable by yourself, if you're not a little bit introverted, it's probably you just don't end up falling into the sport and loving it as much as we do because we are so introverted,

right?

Yeah, and I think, along with that, it's kind of undervalued just how much, um,

how much uh

how important it is to be in a low stress state and like remain in that parasympathetic state.

And like as John Joda has expressed, um, you know, your total allocstatic load is is increased and affected by um like your mental stresses, the things that are going on in your daily life, how much you're active throughout the day, probably what PEDs you're on or whatever other things are causing stresses and inflammation to your system.

All of these things are comp, you know, how much cardio you're doing, all these things are just compounding to a level to where it's like you know, you only have so much that you can take.

So, if you're someone that doesn't have to have a million things to do during the day, you're probably gonna fare a lot better than other bodybuilders, both off-season and on-prem.

Yeah, for sure.

Uh, Daify asks, How often do you train arms?

Uh,

Not enough looking at my current checking photos.

Like, what is it?

I do

push and arms, so once, and I do

an arm day twice, four times a week, basically, four times every eight days.

I'll hit either bicep or tricep or both.

Two full arm days, and then one day bicep, tricep.

So

the bicep three times a week, tricep three times a week, just spread out.

So there's frequency there.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

like basically,

are you saying like this is part of like when you're doing like a like a chest workout, like the the engagement you have when your triceps is counted as one of those times?

No, because I effectively, like without going into too much detail, my splits push-pull, legs, rest, push, pull legs, rest.

Yeah.

Except it's push and arms, then a full back day because I don't, I just want a full day on my back.

And then it's arms and quads, just so I get that slight boost in quad frequency, rest, push-ball legs.

So the push and the pull, the second rotation, the push and pull, it's like biceps on back day, triceps on push day.

On push day.

But then on that first rotation, I've got two full arm sessions, basically.

Okay, that makes sense.

So it's just a bougie push-ball legs for my physique, basically.

This is all it is.

Have you always had like a good level of frequency for your arms or is this

something you've like has arms been something difficult for you to grow?

They've always grown quite easily, I want to say, especially when I was younger, but that's just because I used to train arms every day.

So, obviously, they were going to grow more than like legs because I wasn't training my legs anymore near as much.

I think, similar to my quads, when I got really heavily into like a push-pull legs,

like top-set, back-off-set, really heavy lifting, they probably suffered there because I was just so fucked by the end of the session.

And I was only doing two sets or three sets for each.

They were probably

not progressed at the rate other things were.

So, then they maybe started to lack a little bit.

Recognized that last prep.

And then in the offseason, certainly increased a little bit, and especially going into this prep, then it stepped up again.

So I think they are balanced for my physique.

But I think they certainly, when I was doing push-pull legs with the heavier load, they were neglected a little bit.

But I think because they genetically

were sound, I got away with it.

But I think somebody else on my split training like they may not have.

Okay, gotcha.

Makes makes sense, yeah.

Novak, Novak Vin Novakin

sounds like skyrim uh novakin asks so what cycles are the most effective for you that you've personally liked

uh

probably low test would be like a turn pro on 300 milligrams a test even now my test is at 350 i think um just because if i like a romantized quite easily so if i push it higher okay each and starts to skyrocket then you've got to use a i's and it doesn't get pretty so low to moderate test it's moderate moderate for me, it's probably low for most people at my level.

And then just DHTs, so mastron and primo, combination of the two, normally 50-50 ratio.

Um,

typically, that's it, that's been my off-seasons, that's my preps.

Um, all rules may come in right at the end, final two to three weeks.

Um, but use those for sort of as minimal time as possible just to get that cosmetic effect without the

heavy exposure to sort of you know, the toxic side effects from those.

But yeah, like a test base, shall shall we say and then higher dhts at a high level with a mashed on a primo uh never been a big fan of of you know deckers and mandrolones and all of that um

you know trend towards the end of preps if it's necessary never run it over 150.

um

again you know you then run me i like just because i do aromatize quite quick like quite easily if if

like a 90 nil were to go higher and then i was running into prolactin issues, then obviously the number of sites for using the buying two is going to, you know, could cause more gynone issues there.

So, they don't like to push that too high.

So, yeah, for me, it's literally the test, mass primo.

That's my favorite.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

Um, I've known a couple people that

also feel well, actually, quite a few people that feel better that way.

I can't remember if Jon Jewett's in one of them, but I know I also had a convo with

Darren Farrell, who is uh Ireland's first Olympian.

Yeah, and he

he has an even crazier ratio where he does like test at like 200, but then he takes like Primo R mass at like 1200 or like basically a gram or something.

An either crazier ratio.

And his estrogen lands in the high end of the normal range for most people on your blood work.

So it's fucking nuts, man.

Because for me, for example, I need to have my test 100 more than my DHT.

And I don't aromatize nearly as much.

So it's fucking so cool to hear how different everybody is.

Like, it's just,

it's just, it's just a crazy drastic difference than I ever would have assumed.

Yeah, that's the point for everyone to take as well.

It's like, that works for me.

Somebody else may go and run that, and they'd feel like, shit, they're easy.

Oh, fucking shit, bro.

So it's like, just, just because I've said that and I look the way I do doesn't mean go and just fucking run that.

Yeah, definitely.

Look at your own blood work and work out for yourself.

Yeah, a thousand percent.

Um, what do you think have been the main keys to your back development in terms of adding mass?

You kind of talked about this actually, yeah.

What we spoke about earlier: the sort of just credit to Mikey as a telecarot fella.

We'll just give them all credit, even though I never spoke to them.

But you know, watch them, watching their stuff,

yeah.

Um,

what do you feel like Tiger Lucian asks?

What do you feel like you need to get to the Olympia or to go to Olympia?

Uh, a first place, a pro show

and an invite.

No, I don't know.

A weak lineup and a lucky win.

No, I don't know.

I think

I'll just keep rattling off like a better physique than what I need.

I don't know.

What do you mean?

Like, I need a.

I need to get on stage.

Did you ever get physique?

Did you get feedback from your judges in the last show?

Not at the

not like I remember.

I think, no, I don't think I did because I wasn't.

I was just buzzing to a turn pro and I knew that I needed a year and a half out anyway.

It was like, I was pretty realistic.

We were all very analytical, especially myself.

I could look at my physique at the time and know that the judges are going to say you need to get way bigger everywhere.

You need to get leaner everywhere.

And you need to be this.

I think when you get to the higher ranks of the pro

placings, and especially this season now, where I may be only five pounds under my weight cap, it's like I've got five to eight pounds maybe of weight I can put on.

I need to be very specific where I put that on.

So I want to ask Tyler and these other people where they want me to put it.

And I think it becomes more useful the more developed you get.

Yeah, 100%.

And even like the feedback on posing and

everything like that, I think, yeah.

So I think it would be more imperative because I think looking back when I turn pro, I can look at that and tear it to shreds.

So,

yeah.

Yeah, I completely agree with with that.

Yeah, they would, I mean, like, no, no, no knock on any judges or anything, but most of the time you hear some kind of feedback from like, you know, the show that you turned pro, and they're always going to just say, get bigger, bigger all over.

There's so many people on stage, and it's like, yeah, you're so, if I was, they're like, if I'm asking them, what do I need to do to be a good pro, it's like, you've only just got a pro card.

You still have an amateur physique.

Everything.

You need to do everything more.

It's like, yeah, fair enough.

Yeah.

They freaking told Mike Sommerfeld, you know, this last show that he needs to improve his chest.

I'm kind of shocked by that, to be honest.

I'm kind of fucking shook by that, to be honest.

But I guess if you're really pinpointing on how to get literally the perfect physique.

I mean, yeah, but like, what else does he need to do?

Yeah, I know, for real.

So it's like, yeah.

Like, I think that peak was one of the most...

Perfect peaks I've seen.

Like, that was such a polished, refined look.

I don't think he could have, in terms of speaking about the peak week specifically, I don't think he could have peaked that any better.

Like, similar to Keon as well that year, it's like, I don't think Keon could have been much sharper or drier.

Like, I see all these debates at the minute.

It's like, is Keon pound for pound the best body of the ruler in the world?

It's like

it's hard to

make an argument against him because

where you can pick, like, Samson's bigger, yes, but Samson doesn't have the condition and detail that Keon has.

Pound for pound, pound for pound, Keon might be as big as Samson's height to weight ratio.

So, therefore, if we're going pound for pound, Keon, technically, based off bodybuilding criteria, could be the best.

That's probably quite controversial to say, but massive fan of both their physiques.

But, like,

I love condition and Keon's, like, when he, you know, that specific video where he just hits his back relaxed, flexes his glutes, and he just like nods because he just knows he's the shit.

He just like knows that's like, he hits it.

He's just like, that's lights out.

He just knows.

It's like, he must have known that peak was perfect.

He must have felt good like pumping up backstage because he just hit it.

It was just like, yeah, fuck everyone.

I've won this shot.

It was sick.

It was insane, bro.

It was literally, it was literally no competition.

Matt was wild.

He's like,

he's such a wild physique.

Yeah.

The pound for pound conversation, too.

I know that would be a very controversial combo to have because it's like, you know, pound for pound is hard to make a judgment on.

I think as these bodybuilders grow bigger and bigger and bigger in size, it gets harder and harder to get as detailed on stage.

So I'd say that's probably, like, I would assume Samson, what, 50 pounds lighter, would have had an easier time getting just as detailed and as conditioned.

Exactly.

And like, if it, if bodybuilding was judged pound for pound, 212 wouldn't exist.

Keon would do the open and we'd find out.

But there's a reason he did 212 and it's because bodybuilding size still matters, which is why Samson is Mr.

Olympia.

Yeah.

But eventually, if Keon continues to grow at the rate he does, which he probably will, it'll be very interesting to see him in the open because we know we've seen Derek win before and it's like

be very, very interesting to see where Keon goes.

He's definitely one to watch.

It's gonna be exciting.

Right.

Mike Jim McLean asks, PP size.

I was gifted with genetics everywhere but where it matters.

I'll give you your answer.

You don't know this guy, do you?

I've never heard of him, mate.

No.

No, awesome.

Fire.

I'm just being honest.

We all wish it could be bigger.

Oh.

At least you're not Asian.

Simon Peterson asks, what bodybuilding-related advice would you give to your younger self?

Don't main game.

Not that I ever did, but to everyone else, don't main game.

We'll just continue that theme.

Don't main game.

Basically, everything I said was like everything I said earlier, I kind of gave the advice to like a young bodybuilder.

Same thing applies.

You know, I was lucky that I did fall in contact with the right people and got the right

advice at the right age, but a lot of people don't.

So seek it out, find it.

And

you know, there's so much free advice out there, there's no excuse not to stumble across at least something remotely useful to save you doing something totally idiotic.

So, yeah, just learn.

I'd say, especially in a sport or I don't know, a competitive area where you can, um,

a fucking foods podcast has gotten me a little like, like, uh,

extra attentive on my verbiage with the use of sport and skill.

But, um,

yeah, I don't know, if especially in the competitive area where like you have the susceptibility to really fuck yourself up both mentally and physiologically

and

with your organs, yeah.

I mean, for sure, like getting the right advice is probably number one.

This is a just a question for myself, but I was kind of curious: has there ever been any compound or anything that you've ever used that caused you the most issues or that you just feel like is something that wouldn't serve you or that you wouldn't want to use in the future?

It's hard to say, not really.

I think it was one off season where I tried MPP and literally at like 150 milligrams a week.

But the prolactin, like just skyrocketed, blood pressure skyrocketed.

So I just pulled it out after like literally a few weeks, uh, which is why I'm just not a fan of Deccas myself, much prefer to the DHT.

And

that setup for myself means that then I don't have to run an AI and run all these things because everything's in check from just literally three simple compounds that quote unquote have relatively low toxicity.

Um,

and as a result, my blood work's then been very good throughout the majority.

So, yeah, if I had to pick something like mpp but i've not really done anything stupid that there's no real fun story where it's like yeah i took fucking 400 rolls a day and it was awful method i just i've always been smart to not do that so yeah usually

so yeah uh

no exciting story there unfortunately

fire that's awesome yeah i always love hearing what um what people feel like on different compounds because everyone feels such different things.

Like, I used to feel great on NPP and now for some reason, I tried 100.

I don't think I've even talked about this, but I literally just randomly added 100 milligrams of MPP to my off-season cycle just to see if it would help with joints at all.

And I

got more anxious, man.

And I was like, that's fucking crazy.

Like, off 100?

What's going on with me now?

So I don't know.

Still 90 gnawing it, isn't it?

It just can fuck some people up more than others.

It's like,

it's like, I think it changed as well.

Like,

you know, I could run 150 MPP again now and could could feel a little bit different that i'm older and shit's changed everything's different so it's like yeah it's fucking so complex that you never know everyone's different

so it's like you can't just listen to me having an issue with something and then think that you could do the same and not have any issues because you will or you won't or who knows yeah

uh this was fucking awesome man i asked everyone at the end of every podcast the same question, but if you were to leave the earth tomorrow and you had one message you could send to the entire world today what would that message be

oh that's a hell of a question uh

fucking

just yeah it's kind of just falling in love with the process again it's like just whatever you're doing make sure you're enjoying doing it because otherwise

what are you doing it for who else are you doing it for if you're not doing it for yourself because you don't enjoy it it's like you're probably doing the wrong thing so Find something you enjoy, stick at that, and then you will probably become successful at that if you do that for long enough, and then you'll be far far happier because of it.

And

don't be a dick.

That's the other one.

I like that one.

That's a good one.

That's awesome, bro.

Thanks for coming on the podcast, man.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

It's been really fun.

It's been certainly my favorite podcasts I've ever done.

So I really appreciate your time and giving me this platform as well.

Thank you.

Thank you, bro.

That means a lot too.

Where can everybody find you?

Just Jack Eagles on most platforms.

Really exciting and interesting.

Yeah, just Jack underscore Eagles is pretty much it for everything.

Hell yeah.

All right.

Thank you, bro.

Thanks for coming on, man.

Everyone, Jack Eagles, IFPB Pro, Detroit Pro, next fucking Savage Classic.

Thank you.

Olympian, potentially.

And dude's also got a really cool, informative YouTube channel, so I recommend you guys check it out.

Thanks for coming on, homie.

That was fucking epic.

Appreciate it, man.

Thank you.

That was sick.

Yeah.

Loved it.