Ryan Root: The Largest Steroid Kingpin In US History

Today, we have Ryan Root, previously the largest black market anabolic steroid dealer in US history.

Convicted in 2015, sentenced to 78 months in prison, and recently released from federal prison, Ryan is a biochemist who tailored his degree in the last 20 years of his life to understanding and studying these compounds with over two decades of experience in the hormone industry.

Before starting this podcast, I just wanted to say that ideating steroids for a full show is not widely accepted because it discounts the real work, which is the backbone of this sport, and unfortunately spreads that an unsafe chemical solution is all you need for results.

Both of these are an antithetical to society's understanding of the sport and while there will always be some that claim that PEDs are all you need, I would like to deliver an honest message of what is required for achieving top performance as well as the dangers associated with this route.

I received this comment from a user named Nightscarens.

But Just as a rock climber, the athletes undergoing this path in the sport are willing to put their life on the line for their passion, just the danger between the two sports is different.

Luckily, we do have safety nets in the sport, such as organ imaging and regular blood work.

But that doesn't change the high risk one must accept in taking on this competitive lifestyle.

Podcast by yourself.

It's feeling like you didn't press any of the cameras.

Oh, God.

Pick him was on the podcast with Fuck, and he said he did a podcast with Jay, and he never turned on the audio recording.

Oh, my.

God, can you imagine?

Fantastic.

How do you like?

How do you tell a four-time Mr.

Olympia that you have to redo the entire thing?

Oh, my God.

I can't believe it.

I actually

sponsored him and Phil Heath one year for their after party.

Oh, no way.

After the after Olympia.

It was the 2012 one, I think.

So Phil Heath won, but Jay Cutler was in it.

I think he took six or something that year.

But I sponsored him.

So I got to hang out with him back.

And we did at Excess.

I bought him

Cabana.

And so, and they were back there and they had lines of people waited to, you know, lined up for them to sign autographs.

And, but I got to hang out back with him because I sponsored it for him.

I bought it for him.

So it was cool.

I got to hang out with those guys.

That's tight.

Yeah.

It's tight.

Those guys are still intimidating to me to this day.

Yeah.

I had this little story of how I met.

I met Jay Cutler at

TG, the gym in San Diego.

And I like walk up to him.

And this is, I was already doing content at the time, but I know he didn't know who I was.

I just walk up to him and I'm just like,

Mr.

J.

Yeah.

I love what you do.

Like, you're a huge inspiration.

Like, thank you for everything you do.

Yeah.

And he just looks at me

and he looks me down and up.

And then just like with his most straight-faced frown,

just says, Nice to meet you.

And then walks up the stairs.

Yeah.

And I'm like, God damn, bro, this guy fucking hates my guts.

And then I found out later that he loves everybody and he just has a resting bitch face all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's like the nicest guy ever.

He always supports all of us on the on the young elite team all the time.

He's always checking in to see how we're doing.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah.

That's great.

He's kind of like his uncle.

Yeah.

That is great.

Phil Heath was really nice too.

Super nice guy.

Just sat there and talked with me for while there was a line of like 100 people waiting inside it.

He's like, no, let me talk to this guy.

And so we just sat there and we talked for like, you know, great guy.

No, that's awesome.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of that.

I've heard that he's always been a really amazing guy.

And it's just like, you know, how

you know how it goes whenever you're like an athlete, especially in like bodybuilding and like when you guys are like being really hyped on stage, they like to create a little bit of extra attention.

You know what I mean?

So I think, um, especially with the movie that was created, I just feel like that painted him a little bit drastically in one way than he really is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's that's how most most shows are on us honestly

i heard from some guys

that the that whole feud between him and kai green was completely manufactured yeah they didn't really hate each other like i don't know i don't know how true that is though but yeah i but like you're saying like some of them have been a little hyped up just for yeah for

i feel like in modern day and age too i feel like nowadays it's a little bit more It's a little bit more genuine, a little bit more, less TV show-like.

Yeah.

But like Chris Blumstead just does his shit yeah ramon and uh urst do their shit and it's like whenever you see ramoon and ramon and chris like

i don't know um

doing their little thing whatever it's like clear that it's a joke you know it's clear that it's all and good fun so it's pretty awesome

uh i just want to say by the way thank you for coming on the podcast it's pretty awesome yeah we were discussing this for a while and um honestly when you hit me up and told me about your story it kind of just blew my mind because i literally know nothing about this space like um

I love bodybuilding and that's like my main focus in regards to PEDs how they're made the whole structure and

structure with UGL as well I just have literally like zero understanding on it so

um

I've always had a lot of curiosity about it and uh to hear your story and see that it's something that's public that everybody can listen to is kind of honestly really amazing to me and really interesting so and i also feel like you're a very logical person because i've listened to your other podcasts and things and it's clear that you are very passionate and know a lot about the subject

thank you um

you've told your story a lot of times obviously like you've been on steve's pod you've been on kurt's pod um and i loved how those pods went by the way um and also you have a book so i don't want to like overly regurgitate too much that you've had to like basically say so many different times but i know that a majority of my audience probably probably hasn't heard your story.

So, I would still love to hear your story, kind of how this all happened.

I know that it started as when you were a kid, you probably, it seems like you had some

situations about your life and how you felt about yourself, kind of like how I did, where I lived in a place where I was very outcast.

So, I would love to hear about it.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Yeah, so you know, to start to preface this, uh, yeah, I will, you know, delineate

kind of an ep, like you mentioned, an epic tale of parsimony to profligacy, where I built one of the largest steroid empires in U.S.

history.

The fall, where I was indicted in 2015

by Operation Cyberjuice.

And then kind of the story of redemption, where now I own hormone symboly.com, which is a I manage a medical clinic specifically for hormone replacement therapy and testosterone replacement therapy.

So, you know, we're so now I can utilize all of the massive amount of data, empirical data that I've aggregated over the decades.

You know, I must have helped guide 20,000 people through the use of hormones throughout the last 20 years.

That's kind of a lot what I did.

Like a lot of a lot of what I did during this is

I guided people through the use of hormones.

A lot of my stuff was running rampant through the pro circuit.

So I also helped bodybuilders design their protocols to step on stage.

So I just, you know, I just have more experience than almost anybody in the country could have unless they had my history.

So now I can utilize that.

Now it's about long-term health and safety.

And it's about utilizing my knowledge,

all the experience that I've had

to really use a customized approach to improve people's quality of life.

So that's where it's come to.

But yeah, so let me start with the beginning, like you said.

When I was about 13 years old, I got picked on because I was so skinny.

I just didn't, like, you know, at 13, you're not mature.

But even as the years went on, I just didn't mature like everybody else did.

When I got picked on for being skinny, I started hitting the gym and I never looked back.

But I still would have to do twice the amount of work of my peers to get half the results.

Like I just didn't, I didn't grow.

Like I didn't even grow facial hair like into my 20s even.

um so consequently i was depressed i kind of uh i like i slept a lot and that's i now know i had testosterone deficiency my whole life the all the symptoms were there

um but no at the time no doctor would would even look at my labs they wouldn't even take the levels that sounds exactly like what i went through yeah too i just wish i had an opportunity to get it like diagnosed when i was a kid exactly but a lot of these were definitely a resultant of also my lifestyle factors and things it kind of kind of like a what is it like a

cascade of events that leads to something catastrophic.

Yeah, I mean, but hormone deficiency is pervasive.

Like, like when, when somebody has, like, when they need insulin, right?

That's a hormone.

When we need insulin, they don't,

like, they don't stigmatize it like they do testosterone.

It's part of the biggest part of the problem is the stigma.

So they wouldn't even test me when I was, you know,

even in my early 20s, they wouldn't even look at it.

They said, there's no way anybody notorious has low testosterone.

We're not even testing you for it.

So,

you know, consequently, like I said,

this is part of the problem, too.

Like, I was always tired, and that's a symptom of low testosterone.

And I had no confidence.

But because I was always tired, people called me lazy and unmotivated.

And, you know, it turned out later when I finally took testosterone, it was the opposite.

I'm a very motivated, very ambitious person.

You find now that you just can't stop working.

Yeah, right.

That's all I think about now.

But like when I had low testosterone, I could only think about sleeping.

So, you know, consequently, I got walked out a lot.

I was, again, I I was depressed.

I always was a people pleaser because my only dopamine hit came from pleasing other people.

And, and, you know, I, I,

I was just, I wasn't that well respected.

So finally came the day when I was 23, I finally took some testosterone.

Uh, I just did, I did a really small dose in the beginning, just one middle.

Why did this happen, if you don't mind me asking, what led you to start taking the test?

Well, mainly because

I just, like, I had always wondered about it and been interested in it.

I always like I have a bodybuilder's mentality, but I couldn't, there was no way I could look like a bodybuilder.

No matter, I used to, I used to do double sessions.

I would do, you know, hours in the gym every day, even as a teenager,

even at 16, 17, 18, 19, hours in the gym.

And I couldn't grow.

Like, again, I couldn't grow facial hair.

It was just.

But I had the bodybuilder's mentality, but I couldn't look like one.

So I had always like thought about it.

And it was just like it was never available.

When I moved, I just moved to a slightly bigger city than I grew up in.

And then there were some options and people told me that they could get it for me.

So I just got some.

I didn't know what I was doing at the time, but I just took one milliliter of sustenant a week and 10 milligrams of D-ball a day.

And I hyper-responded.

It was, it was, it was, uh, it was phenomenal.

Like, I, like, so I was already kind of maxed out for, for me, like, I was only like 170 pounds or something.

And and that was me working out since i was 13.

i put on 32 pounds of muscle and 100 pounds on my bench in five weeks it was crazy i just blew up it was so now i like looked like my work ethic in the gym and now all sudden life is just different real quick guys so while i was looking at the youtube analytics i actually saw that

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It was a completely different world.

People respect me.

People are now wanting to be my friend.

I walk into a bar and heads turn.

And now the crowd would part out of my way in front of me.

I would accidentally bump into somebody and they would turn kind of angry at first.

And then when they saw me, they would just also apologize to me and say, oh, you know, I'm sorry.

I had a job in college.

I was a plumber.

I just worked, you know, as a plumber.

I hated it.

It was terrible.

It was just my college job, my college summer job.

I was terrible at it.

One day after I started taking testosterone, my boss just for no reason gave me a raise.

for no better reason than I just, now I stood before him looking stout.

Like, it's just, so like I said, everybody wanted to be my friend now.

It was just a different world, a completely different life.

And I much preferred that life.

So, I happened to be, I've always been a science guy.

So, I happened to be in school for biochemistry at the time.

So, I started to tailor my degree to the study of hormones.

And I read voraciously.

I couldn't put the information down.

Like,

I just like, you know, like a lot of people play video games or something, I just couldn't stop studying steroids.

And then, so pretty soon I started to be able to help people.

They saw what happened to me, and people would come to me and say, How did you do this?

Like, how did you make this transformation?

Like, it's crazy.

So, I started to be able to help people.

And

I started, you know,

I, you know, so I slowly started nailing down supply chains and actually being able to get, you know, get people some things.

And then I was just doing it to help people at first, but after a while, it started to come to me, like, I have to monetize this.

So,

so I just, you know, started charging people a little more than I could get afforded.

And,

you know, it was a small city, though.

So it wasn't lucrative.

I didn't make a lot, but I made a, you know, a little extra money.

But I just became really good at, again, like I'm a, I'm like a social chameleon.

So I was able to get into, if, if I had a supplier, I was able to, you know, eventually

just come up with ways to have better

supply chains, better, find a better quality.

And eventually, like, I'd be able to go find, you know, their, the person getting it for them.

And then, and eventually I just,

um,

I found one of the, the better sources in the United, or not in the United States, in the world at the time.

Um, so yeah, I guess we can go into that now.

Um, so I, there was this, this company called IP China.

And a lot of the old school guys may know that, that name.

So IP China was this, was kind of one of the first,

not the first,

but one of the world-renowned UGL.

And they would, they had, they sold stuff for really, really good prices.

And I happened onto this source.

So, and, you know, at first we just ordered a few things.

It was actually kind of funny.

In the very beginning, they got more professional as they went on, but in the very beginning, like we were getting

like stuff, like sustadon or whatever, in like test tubes with a cork on the top of it.

So you'd get it in the mail and you'd have to take the cork off and then draw it out, draw it out.

And then, and we were doing that.

And it was work.

It was great.

It was great stuff.

But eventually they started becoming more professional.

And then they had bottles and stuff.

And then, you know, more professional.

So, but the prices were unlike anything I had ever seen.

They were really, really good.

And I, like, I had started being with them for so long, I was able to talk them down and keep getting better and better prices.

Can you give me like an idea of the prices?

Well, at the time,

so no, this is also important to understand.

At the time, at the time, like, especially like in the late 90s, early 2000s, servers were really hard to get.

Like, you're, you're a little younger, so you may not be aware of how hard they were to get.

Yeah.

And it was really difficult.

And that's where the whole concern about fakes came

because it was lucrative to fake the stuff because it was so difficult to get.

So there were people who were making fakes.

Like to this day, it doesn't make any sense to make a fake.

The stuff is so easy to get.

We have, you know, we have the

whole

voting system, you know, where you can go online and everybody rates all the different suppliers and you can see who's good, who's not.

And it's again, now it's so cheap to make the stuff that

it doesn't make any sense to fake anymore.

It's just not a thing.

It's not anymore.

But it was the biggest concern on anybody's mind when they bought steroids back in the early 2000s late 90s

um and even before that but what would you have to say about um the people that are saying that steroids were a lot better back then

like i think there's like this uh argument that some bodybuilders have made that lee priest like for example lee priest used so much lower doses than people would expect yeah and so people some people argue that he's lying some people believe that he's telling the truth i think he's five i don't know how tall he is it's like he's shorter than five five yeah so i'm not very surprised surprised that the dose will be low now for how big he is.

I don't know.

There's genetic outliers, but it just makes sense.

They like to make the argument that

back then

the steroids were better.

Probably except for like Primo or something like that.

But the other steroids, I guess, were better.

So I don't know.

I don't...

I guess I don't.

I mean, it depends on what you mean by better.

If they mean more potent, I just, I don't, I don't believe that to be true.

I mean, because things are super dosed now and mega-dosed.

And

like, you know, so as far as potency, I don't think that's true.

It's, you know, maybe as far as because like back in the day, like a lot of stuff actually came from pharmacies.

Or like, so this is important to understand the zeitgeist at the time or the market at the time.

So again,

everybody was concerned about getting a fake because it was prevalent.

And fakes were

common, probably more common than the real thing.

So every bodybuilder, every bodybuilding forum was all about fakes, how to find a good source.

So nobody would trust anything, right?

So it had to have a name brand.

And there's only certain brands that people would trust.

Some of those brands were like British Dragon,

British Dispensary with their Andadrol.

And British Dispensary also had the classic D-balls, the little Thai D-balls, right?

Quality Vet was a big one out of Mexico, but they made it for veterinarian use.

So it was actually made in a, manufactured in a pharmaceutical type environment.

So that may be what they mean, right?

Because a lot of the stuff was big-time name brand and nobody, there was no UGLs.

Like UGLs weren't a thing because nobody would trust anything except for the biggest name brands.

So,

I mean, that may be what they mean.

They were usually probably pretty professionally made.

There was a few others like Denkel,

oh, Organon Sustenan, which actually comes from a pharmacy in Africa.

There's several pharmacies in Africa that have Oregon, right?

So, and that was good stuff.

I mean, it's pharmacy grade.

So, and that's so that was running around.

Um,

but there, so there was only a certain amount of brands that people would trust.

Um, that again, there was no UGLs.

Like, so some of the first UGLs actually probably were like,

well, IP, IP China was one of the one of the first ones.

Um, and I'll explain a little bit how they

how they came to be.

So,

so let me continue.

I guess.

Um, let's see, what was it?

So, yeah, I was helping people locally, right?

And,

you know, people started to know that if you wanted, if you really wanted to look and feel your best, you just come to me and I would be able to help you.

Um, so I started to get a kind of a name for that in my local city.

Again, it was just a small city, so it wasn't very lucrative.

I wasn't making much money or anything.

Um,

but

um, so one of my clients one time told me about this forum, this online forum.

And he said, like, people are selling this stuff like online.

Your prices are good.

Your stuff is fantastic.

Like, you should check this out and see if you can do this.

So I just went home and started researching it, looking into it.

And it was one of the, it happened to be one of the, not one of the biggest online steroid site

in the world.

So I just started researching it and

I started to see that, oh my God, like I can, I can compete with these prices.

Like I could do this.

So, you know what, at the time I said, okay, well, I just had a computer and a duffel bag full of steroids.

And I said, well, let me just

start this,

you know, get on this to see what happens.

So I kind of went on to look at how to do it.

And I didn't really know how to do it.

At first, it was kind of funny.

I just went on there and posted like a, I made a, like a, a list of all the stuff I had.

And I went on there and I didn't see how to become like an official source or anything.

So I just posted my list on one of their

things and people laughed at me.

Like everybody was like, because again, you have to remember the Zeitgeist at the time was nobody trusted anything that wasn't name brand and came from somebody they trusted.

So when random dude just posts a list online, like I got laughed at and

until like, oh, look at this guy thinking he could come in and sell us.

And everybody made a a mockery of it um

and then the moderators actually took the post down and were like if you want to become a source you have to go through this official way to do it right and it was pretty difficult and arduous um but i did i went through it and luckily

there was a few guys who saw the list in the like hour that it was up who reached out to me and were like um

One of them especially was really well known on that site.

He had like a lot of, they had this point system

where the more points you had, the more you were trusted in the community.

This guy had like a lot of points.

So he's really trusted.

Everybody knew him on this, on this forum.

Do we got to know what this forum is?

Yeah, if you, can I say it?

You want me to?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Eroids.com.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's, it's the biggest one in the world.

Still is.

So this guy reached out to me and he said, I saw your list.

Oh, yeah.

So this is where I can start talking about

IP China, right?

So one of the, the, I said I mentioned before, one of the biggest

brand names, the best brand names was Bridge Dragon.

Bridge Dragon went down in like 2008.

So when they went defunct,

the owners got busted and it was this big thing.

When they went defunct,

IP China just started making Bridge Dragon labels and

slapping it on their stuff because, you know, now they're gone.

And most bodybuilders knew this.

Most of the guys knew that IP China was just using British Dragon labels.

But the thing is, IP China was good too.

They had good products.

So it didn't really matter.

If you had the old British Dragon, it was fine.

The new British Dragon was fine.

So,

you know, everybody was like, ah, well, it's all still good.

So anything British Dragon is still good.

So I had IP China and they started giving me this

British Dragon stuff.

That was the new British Dragon.

And

so I called my company BD Supplements, British Dragon Supplements.

And that was my name on there.

So

this, again, so back to this guy, he reached out to me and he said,

listen, I like British Dragon products.

He goes, but we can't trust anybody on here.

So why don't you do this?

Send me some stuff.

I'll pay for it once I find out it's good.

And I'll also post it all over E-Roys and tell everybody to come to you.

Like at the time, I was really reluctant to do it because I was just like,

I had this mentality.

I didn't want to give out free stuff.

in retrospect, like, I shouldn't have been so reluctant to do it.

If you have a good product, if you have a good service, get it out there and help people with it.

And then obviously, you're suspicious someone just wants free shit, and it's not going to do anything for you, yeah.

But you know, in retrospect, I shouldn't have been, and that's that's the method to do that, right?

Is especially somebody trusted in the community, send them some free stuff, tell them to post about it.

Yeah, yeah, a lot of new companies clearly do that so often these days, especially with social media.

I think we're doing the new presence, yeah.

So, I did that, I actually did it with like three different guys on there, but this one guy was the, was the best.

So he got it.

And I remember at the time I actually worked in an emergency room.

And I used to like,

so I, you know, I worked, I, uh,

um,

and I, you know, I just was starting this on the side or whatever.

And I remember being in the emergency room and I was like, oh, let me, like, I was checking.

Nobody was coming to me at first because nobody knew who I was.

um one day

yeah so i went through the artist process to actually become a source right so and it was, it actually took a lot of time and it was a pain in the ass, but I actually had a source tag now next to my name on this site, which still doesn't necessarily mean anything because there's, there was probably a thousand sources on there.

And,

and,

you know,

not people only use like, I don't know, the first like 30 of them.

Yeah.

And beyond that, nobody uses it, right?

Because it's all about trust.

So

one day, all of a sudden, I started getting these emails and

all of a sudden some orders were just coming in.

I'm like, what the heck happened?

So I see that this guy finally, he got his stuff, saw it was good, and started posting.

Like, this is, you know, this is great.

This is go here.

And he started sending people.

So

now, what I did, how did I get to one of the largest, right?

And I think that's like, you know, how much money I made, like a lot of the little stories and this and that, like, we'll go into, but, but I think the more interesting part is what,

like, what decisions did I make?

What, what kind of business aspects made this so big?

And I think that's an interesting part of the story.

So we'll go over a lot of that too.

So

what I did was just to bring some relatively simple good business practices into this kind of

disorganized business market, right?

Steroid dealers are not masters of business administration.

They did not have good techniques.

They did not have good customer service.

So when I implemented some of these simple things, so as simple as it sounds some of these some of these things sound nobody else was doing them at the time now everybody does them

um they were using snail mail at the time so it would take people two weeks to a month for them to get their products um

so nobody was like using just uh priority shipping or anything um they were you know just charging a lot and uh you know the prices were just high so when i came in and i intentionally came in to undercut the rest of the market

I had free priority shipping for everybody.

You know, Amazon was in business at the time, and I just kind of stole their business model for that.

I was like, everybody loves Amazon because of the free, fast shipping.

And,

you know, good, good quality products, but also great customer service.

And, and we can go into this too, but like a lot of the customer service, when you, when you have some of these guys had thousands and thousands of clients.

And when you, and, and when you're a source on there, people kind of,

they become, what's the word I'm looking for?

They kind of fawn over you, right?

There's a word for it.

I can't, I can't think of it right now.

They kind of fawn over you and they,

you know, they, they, they hold you in a high esteem, right?

So,

and, and when you have thousands of people, uh, thousands of people just kind of looking up to you and singing your praise all the time, you, you can become kind of manic, right?

Get too high of a dopamine hit.

So these people would start thinking they're almost godlike and start kind of treating the rest of their clients poorly.

And I saw this all the time.

These guys who started to rise to the top, they would have big time attitudes with their clients.

And you could see it the way that they talked to everybody.

It was just awful.

Like you're ostracizing your own client base.

And it was just terrible, terrible customer service.

And I vowed I would never do that.

So it was all about customer service, communication.

of course, quality products and fast shipping.

And when it started to get a post online that i got my products in two days because i just did private shipping for everybody like that ran like wildfire

and the next thing you know

the next thing you know so let me tell you i worked at an emergency room i just had a kind of a low-end job i made like maybe 300

a week and again I sold some steroids, but it wasn't, it was a small city, so it wasn't that much more that I made.

$300 a week.

And

I couldn't really support myself, right?

So it was, it was, you know, paycheck to paycheck, hardly getting by.

When I started this online venture, I was hoping, hoping for $200 or $300 extra dollars a week.

And I thought that would be, I'd be more comfortable then.

And I was like, I don't think that's going to happen, though.

I don't, you know, that's, that's a lot to ask.

How many years into this?

Was this?

Oh, this is just the first, this is when I first started it.

I thought this.

Yeah, but how many years into making gear?

Oh, I hadn't started yet.

Like, I'll get to that when I started making my own.

Oh, at this point, I was just reselling the British Dragon stuff.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, but I do create my own brand.

And I'll get into that and how that was, how that took off too.

But when I just had this British Dragon stuff, I

so again, just the fast shipping, the products, the good customer service, it started to, everybody started talking on that forum.

And then, and it just blew up.

So again, I made $300 a week.

I was hoping for $200 to $300 extra dollars a week.

Like that would make me comfortable.

I was like, I would be totally satisfied with that.

And I didn't think, I thought that was asking too much.

I didn't think that would happen.

Within six months, I started making $21,000 a week.

Like from 300 a week to 21,000.

It was just blew up.

And I, it was the, the orders were coming in.

And I, like, I started to pile them up.

And I'm working full time at the,

at the emergency room.

Damn.

And I'm just, I'm like, my whole life is come home from the emergency room, answer all the emails, pack all the orders, get them ready, wake up in the morning, take the shipments to the post office,

collect all the money.

Because at the time,

We can get into that too, about how I collect money.

It became a problem.

Like when you have to collect that much money anonymously, anonymously it's it's a problem and so i had to come up with ways to to deal with all this how do you collect millions of dollars anonymously yeah

um

so there was a point

when i got scared so there's a point when i had like a hundred thousand dollars cash at my house it holding that much money and i never thought i would ever be able to hold a hundred thousand dollars in cash like i said i made 300 bucks a week

and um

I had so much money, I got scared.

I'm just like, like, I'm not a man who's prone to panic attacks, but if I ever had one, it was right here.

Cause I'm like, I'm going to get caught.

Like, this is out of control.

Like,

like, I'm getting orders, like, just flying in and I'm working.

Like, I can't, I can't do this.

I was like, I got to stop.

Like, I'm going to get caught.

Like, this is, this got out of control.

I didn't know it would go like this.

So I got scared.

And I was like, okay, I started my out plan.

Okay.

I can't, you know, I'm, I'm, I have ethics.

ethics, I have morals.

I'm not going to like just cut people, you know, just take money or not.

So I'm just going to finish all the rest of the orders that people have already paid for.

And I'm going to tell from now on, I'm going to say, I can't do this, guys, anymore.

I'm sorry.

Like, I'm done.

So I was just going to do that.

And that I started like, okay, that's, that's my plan.

Do you have any like buddies that were there for you on this thing?

Well, I had to, so I was pretty good at keeping it quiet because I knew.

And I'll get into that.

Like, what's going to get me caught, right, is probably actually the local game is

is telling people locally.

If the local cops get,

get wind of this and then they come bust me, then the whole thing's gone.

So like, I was actually pretty good at keeping it quiet.

So, so nobody would know.

So I didn't, I didn't really tell anybody.

I had one guy that helped me set up a website and everything, and he was the only one who knew.

And

so,

but I had to get help, right?

So, so this is what happened.

So I'm sitting there.

I've got my head in my, in my hands like this.

I'm like, I got to stop this.

Like, I'm scared.

And, uh,

and then all of a sudden, like, just something hit me.

Like, all of a sudden, all of these memes from like Facebook, right?

Where, where take risks.

You know, without risks, you're not, you never get anywhere in life.

And, and all of these things that just, you know, all these, if you can think of all these memes, right, that, that kind of illustrate how you have to

bet on yourself and take risks and, and, in order to succeed and, and success is a mindset and, and all all this stuff.

And I just started to get this glaze over me.

And I just, I started to say,

another big part of it was

about helping people, right?

Like

I love helping people.

Our biggest dose response, dopamine,

oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins, comes from helping others.

Like we evolved to be social creatures.

So, you know, our sense of well-being, actually our

sense of well-being depends on other people because

we need to get these neurotransmitters that actually make us feel good, right?

The best way to get that is through social interaction.

The best way to

express social reaction is through helping people.

You get the biggest dose response from that.

So, so helping people has just always been, you know,

obviously something that makes me feel good and I love it.

So, when I could help all these people, I would get emails every single day.

I still do to this day.

Every single day with people telling me, you know, at the time it was mostly

men that were my patients.

Now I have lots of females too.

But at the time, it was men

emailing me, telling me, Thank you, thank you for making me a better husband to my wife, a better father to my children, and a better supporter of my family.

Because now they have the motivation, ambition to go out and work, and actually the confidence to go out and make moves to support their families better.

So, so I was really helping people.

So

that also got to me.

Like, okay, what am I going to go tell all these people who these now, probably at the time it was like a thousand clients?

How am I going to go and tell them

that, I'm sorry, I'm having a little bit of a panic attack right now, so I can't help you anymore.

Like now you have to go back to living your suboptimal quality of life just because I'm having a little bit of a panic attack right now.

And I thought about that.

Like, how can I not help these people who depend on this?

So,

so I just, you know, I started, I got this steeled visage over me.

And I, and I just, uh, I said, fuck this.

I can do this.

I can do it.

And, and from then on, like, I just put my head down and I just worked to make it happen.

So,

so how did I, you know, how do I work to make it happen?

So, I had to get help.

It was coming in too fast.

So, that's when I started hiring people.

So, this was part part of part of the operational model

about

the idea was to compartmentalize everything, right?

You compartmentalize everything because,

say, if a part of the, if all the operation is in one spot and everybody knows each other, right?

Then it's easy to bust.

Like if the local cops just got wind of what we're doing, they could just come in, just bust, you know, what we're doing, then the whole thing's done,

But if you compartmentalize it, and so what I eventually started to do is spread this out throughout the country because, again, keeping the operation in one spot

makes it more

liable to get, you know, for the whole thing just to come down.

Compartmentalizing it, everybody had a job.

They did their job and they didn't know anybody else's job and they didn't know who else was doing the job.

So this way, if somebody did one part of the operation to get busted, the person person couldn't tell on anyone else if they wanted to.

So it was all compartmentalized.

This is where I went wrong in the end and how I finally got busted because there was parts of it that were not compartmentalized.

And that's what was eventually

led to, you know, the downfall.

So I had

shippers.

I had, well, later I had chemists.

At this time, I wasn't making it myself, but there was a point where we started making it.

Later, I had chemists, shippers, and money collectors, because money collection is a huge issue.

When you're collecting millions of dollars anonymously, it's actually difficult.

Money collectors.

And then I learned I also had to have receiving houses to receive.

We were getting 10 kilos of powder in a week.

So we had to come to clean houses.

And you have to keep moving, moving all the addresses, the shipping addresses.

so that so i had receivers money collectors shippers and chemists and they were all compartmentalized most of them

and uh and they didn't know anything about the rest of the operation or who or the names of everybody who was doing anything damn that's crazy and it was throughout the country too so so and there was a point when one part small part of it got busted and we were able to continue because

Because it didn't, you know, the local cops didn't have jurisdiction to go outside of the state.

And

so we were able to continue because the rest of the operation was fine throughout the rest of the country.

Yeah.

We have it and I had it spread through several different states throughout the country.

Book.

So, yeah, so we're doing again.

So I'll go into

when I started to make my own.

I have this IP China stuff.

And we're going into the source was flaky at times.

Sometimes they just disappear for a month.

And I was getting,

you know, I was, was,

I was, I don't know, it's hard to tell you the volume because it was so much.

I mean, we were getting 3,000 pills a week, kilos of powder coming in.

Oh, no, that was, that was when I started making my own stuff.

At this time, it was just vials because they sent me extra full vial.

So it was just constant, constant streams of these 20 milliliter vials.

That's another thing that made me different: I sold 20 milliliter vials instead of your typical 10.

Yeah.

And, you know, a lot of people like that because it's just, you know, more.

And

So I had 20 millierviles.

So 20 millier vials just constantly streaming in.

They would get flaky sometimes.

So they would just disappear.

And then they'd come back and be like, oh, sorry.

Yeah, what do you need?

And then whatever.

So I started to see a problem here.

Like, if

they go, something happens, and they disappear for longer than a month this time, then I'm screwed.

And they had, like back years ago, they had disappeared for like a lot of, of, like four or five months before.

So this is before I started this operation.

And this time they was only like sporadic.

They would, they would disappear just not too often, but enough to where I started to worry.

So I started to look at, okay, I have to build redundancies.

I have to build contingency plans.

I have to have redundancies so that if something happens to them, I'm not just done.

So I started to look at other brands.

They're all expensive and I would have to charge more.

And my thing was my brand was being,

you know, best quality, some of the lowest prices.

So I couldn't, I had to stay with the low prices.

I couldn't do it.

So I'm thinking, like, what could I possibly do?

At the time, I didn't know how to make anything.

Okay.

But

somebody, one of the, so again, I was, you know, a dealer in my local city and all the other dealers, there was only a couple of them, but we all knew each other.

Right.

And we were amicable.

We were friends.

One of the other guys had started making his own stuff, and he just did it locally.

And he used to sell people vials with no label on it, right?

Which most people wouldn't trust.

But if you know this guy, then you trust him because he's, he's, you know, he was, he was a man of his word, and he got, you know, he was making it himself.

And just,

and people would tell me, oh, his stuff was great.

Like, I did it.

It had no label on it.

It looked a little sketchy, but you know, I trust him.

So, whatever.

So, I started thinking about this.

Okay.

What if I get this guy to make it en masse?

and uh and then we and then i'll professionalize it i'll put labels at it you know i'll get somebody to make a label and we'll we'll do it

so i took the idea to him and i remember that when i did it too like uh

um i wanted to gather up a bunch of the money i collected so he could see like i had thousands and thousands of dollars because i hadn't again i hadn't told anybody so and so nobody knew what i was doing so i had to like show him that i this was real like i was i actually have thousands of clients And I took him the money and I went and we met out at a bar.

And I just brought him in my car and I just kind of told him, pitched him the whole story.

I told him what I was doing.

And I had a bunch of money.

Look, look at all this money I'm collecting every day.

And I remember he just sat there and he listened to me with his mouth open.

And then, you know, at the end, I kind of closed up and I, and I was like, so what do you think?

I was offering a chance to make

more money than he's ever seen too.

So he just like sat there.

He never said a word.

He's just like, he just shook his head.

He's like, okay, let's do this.

All right.

So

we start, he had some powder sources already that from what he was doing.

So I just started feeding him money and saying, okay, make these.

I'm going to have somebody make labels and then we'll put labels on them so that they look more professional.

And then

we'll do this.

We'll have our own brand.

So we started that.

And so, and I decided to call it Matrix.

So you can still Google Matrix Lab steroids and you'll still see all the positive results.

Now,

the first couple reviews that you see,

they were from when I got busted.

So the first two are like, oh, this guy didn't get me my stuff, but I just got busted at that point.

So there was, at the end, there was a couple bad reviews from people who didn't get their stuff when I got busted.

But before that, it was all just, this stuff is fire.

This is the best stuff on the market.

So let me tell you when I made that transition.

So now I had this stuff that we were making.

And I told him, I said, let's make it a little stronger just so it gets

a good name.

I want to over, you know, just a little bit overdose it.

I want it to be strong.

I want it to have a good name.

So

we made higher milligram stuff.

And it was, you know, a little overdose, so it was really good quality.

And I called it Matrix Labs.

And so I started, I put it on my list and I just offered it.

Now, again, if you remember, the ethos at the time was we don't trust anything that isn't something, a brand that we trust already, right?

So you have to be in that,

in that trusted category.

So I thought that at first, nobody would buy the Matrix Labs.

I didn't think it was going to sell well.

It turns out as soon as I put it up there, everybody just went for the Matrix Lab stuff.

And I learned that

I was the brand.

It was me because everything I had done before that, my good customer service was a man of my word.

So people just trusted me and they'd buy anything I put up there.

So the Matrix Lab immediately, everybody just went for the Matrix Labs.

Nobody was buying the BD stuff anymore.

And again, it was powerful.

So now those reviews are coming in.

And the internet is just blowing up.

Every forum, every other forum is talking about this Matrix Lab stuff.

And the freaking, and it, it just got exponential.

We're getting two, three times more orders because now people are hearing about they got to come try this matrix lab stuff.

And

it just got crazy.

So not a month, maybe two later, sure enough, BD supplement or the IP China

is gone for good.

I did it just in time.

Had I not made that move at that time, I would have been done right there.

What happened?

I think they, I don't even know that I never heard.

Like they just,

it just disappeared and didn't come back.

So one guy actually emailed me and he said he was a partner the whole time.

And he said, he didn't even tell me exactly what happened, but he was like, I can keep sending you stuff.

And this time, my Matrix Lab stuff was on fire.

And I was like, you know, I guess I'll take some stuff.

I don't need it like I used to.

I have my own stuff.

We were making pills too.

Like, I eventually got a pill press and we were making pills.

Like, and uh, and we had liquid orals too.

A lot of people like the liquid orals.

So, what was the hardest thing for you guys to make?

Uh,

probably, um, we had this.

Well,

there's a couple things.

Um,

Masturon is hard to filter

because

it leaves this like, I don't know, this black byproduct and it clogs up the filters.

So that got kind of hard to filter.

That's great.

Well, it's just, it's just Mastron.

Like anybody who makes it know that, like, Masturon is a little hard to filter.

Yeah.

Propionate.

It was just so painful that, like, do it.

Yeah.

But people wanted it.

and I was, I always started to be like, guys, I don't want any, but nobody, because everybody complains, it's it's so much pit.

And I was like, I don't,

but, but people kept asking for it.

I was like,

I was like, you can't shoot this alone.

People were mixing it with other things to, you know, to dilute a little bit, but they loved it.

They said it was so potent.

So I was like, okay.

But it was hard to make because it was crash easy.

And we tried to like, so I made a 300 milligram per milliliter sustanine and we added an ester too.

So we took the typical four,

four testosterone blend for sustenan, and I would add an acetate.

So it was even faster, testosterone acetate.

So it was even faster acting.

Okay.

And it was 300 milligrams per milliliter.

And

that was a really good one.

Everybody loved it.

Sometimes that would crash too, though, because you have all those short esters and such high concentrations.

And the shorter esters don't.

Well, testosterone acetate actually does dissolve.

And this is one thing I never realized.

And I don't know why it's not bigger, but testosterone acetate is very fast acting, almost like

a

testosterone noester, right, or suspension.

And it's potent, and it doesn't hurt to inject.

It doesn't have any PIP.

So I don't know why that's not more popular.

It probably should be.

So I added testosterone acetate to this.

But all those short esters together, like the shorter the ester, it doesn't dissolve in solution as well.

The longer esters actually make it more soluble in an oil base.

So, anyways,

so I had all these unique products, and we were one of the first ones to start putting things together.

Like, we had the,

what we called the RIP blend, which was like

TREN propionate and masturan.

We had different blends like that, right?

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Okay, so I compartmentalized everything.

My job was to,

I was for, I was customer facing.

I'm excellent at customers.

Obviously, I have the knowledge.

So this is where I, like, you know, I mean, I was doing

500 emails a day.

And like, probably a hundred of them were like brand new people who were

or a hundred a day who were people who were trying to figure out how to do this and sometimes pros like like getting suggestions from me.

I looked at blood work.

I looked at and we saw I got to sit there and see how different compounds would react with people.

And again, by the end, I had 20,000 clients.

I saw this just on a vast level that no one else could have unless they unless they were the owner of a and their job was the customer facing part.

So I just like collected all the money and answered people's questions and helped people

design protocols.

So I just, and obviously, we used every compound.

I know exactly how it all works.

So

by the time we started making our own stuff and everything went exponential, now

by this point, I have,

holy crap, I had four chemists throughout the country,

four shippers,

an army of people collecting money,

and an army of people

receiving things.

And I, you know, so again, in the first six months, I was making like 21,000 a week, but now then it went up to 50,000.

Then it went up to 100,000.

There were some months, and especially when a different UGL would get busted,

all those clients would have to come somewhere else.

And so I would catch a lot.

Like when another UGL would go down, like we'd get four or five times the orders.

So there's probably a few months where I made 500 grand.

Jesus.

I mean, sorry.

Weeks.

There's a few weeks where I made 500 grand in one week, especially when Big D went down.

That was a big UGL.

So at this time, I was rated

on E-roids

on the worldwide site.

I was rated number three in the world for largest, most popular.

UGL.

And, you know, that's when we were doing it.

So

let me tell you about what led to us getting busted.

Remember, I said I had everything compartmentalized.

Okay.

So I had this personal assistant because I was working so much I didn't have time to do anything like shopping or anything.

So I had a personal assistant and she started, she was doing various tasks for me and she started to catch wind of what I was doing.

I didn't tell her, but it started to become obvious to her just from some of the, sometimes I had her, you know, pick up some money here or drop something off to somebody.

And so she started to catch wind of what was going on and she was like okay like i want to she started understanding how much more money these people were making she says i want a chance to make this money she's let me let me do something else so i was like

i had one of my shippers was like addicted to adder all and he was like he would disappear for three days at a time and he was he was his brain was fried he kept getting the wrong orders to sending people the wrong thing so i'd have to i'd have to resend him the right order and then reminds me of my amazon delivery oh my God.

So it was, so I, I had to let him go anyways.

So I said, okay,

I'll let you take over this guy's shipping operation.

So, so I did.

And she was doing well and making money.

And

the problem was that she had information.

She's privy to more information than the rest of everybody else who's compartmentalized.

So one of the, so again, I had it.

I had chemists.

The chemists would actually ship to shippers.

They would,

chemists in a different shape, ship to a shipper in a different state.

And that's kind of how we were keeping a compartmentalized.

But we took great means to wrap all this stuff up.

This one time a box,

some of the vials in there broke.

Now, it was vacuum sealed like everything.

They must have just thrown this thing to get it to.

You know,

I can't imagine how much damage they must have done to it to get one of the vials to break and leak through the box because it was really, really well sealed.

But that's what happened.

And then the post office was able to open the package to make sure it wasn't anything hazardous.

So when they opened it, they saw like

it was actually three different boxes, but they were all addressed to the, and they all were together and they came to the same place.

And one of them was leaking.

The first one they saw, it was probably like $300,000 worth of steroids, all the three boxes together.

So when they opened that,

they immediately called the local sheriff's department and had them send to the address it was going.

That's one of the mistakes I made too.

Another mistake, not only the non-compartmentalized person, but also I had them, the

chemist ship to the shipper's house, which had products in it.

And I learned after that, they have to ship to a clean house.

So if anybody was to go to that house, there would be nothing else in there.

And nobody would get busted for anything.

So they went to this house, but they didn't get busted for the stuff they found because nobody possessed it.

It was

a shipper's house who had products in there.

So when they went in there, they found just a little bit of products actually, because we knew they were coming.

They called and said, hey, we have to open this box.

And she was like, no, don't open it.

I'll come get it in Syracuse.

They said, no, we're going to open it.

Anyways, they came.

They found a little bit of products.

Not too much, though.

And another one of my friends went there to help her clean it out the place.

So they arrested both of them.

right?

So they scared the crap out of both of them.

You know, made them sound like they were going to do hard time.

It was just a low-level felony.

Nobody was going to even do a night in jail.

Nobody did a night in jail.

They were just going to release him, give him this low-level felony because it's just simple possession of a Schedule 3 controlled substance.

It's not, you know, nobody was going to do any jail time.

They scared the crap out of her though.

By telling her she was going to do all this hard time and everything.

So they coaxed her into confession.

She knew a lot.

She blew in the whole operation.

The other guy who was there too, he held his ground.

He was like, I'm not talking.

So I sent him a lawyer.

And

so we had like a lawyer kind of on the inside who knew what was going on.

They said that,

you know, the lawyer said that, well, you know, they have this information.

It doesn't look like it's going to go to the feds.

It's not quite big enough.

It's not quite enough to go to the feds.

So it was just going to stay local.

These two got felonies.

They would get what they call ACDCs, which means six months of good behavior.

And they just, they actually throw out the charge, the conviction.

So it was like, nobody was really going to suffer any consequence.

I mean, not too bad a consequence.

So, of course, we shut down when that happened.

And then just a few months later, the rest of the team, the rest of the guys said, hey, look, this thing is done in New York.

We'll just stay out of New York from now on.

And because that's where it happened in New York, we'll stay out of New York from on.

We have the operation running in the rest of the country.

Let's just get, let's get going again.

Let's just kick this back in because everybody was making money.

Everybody was happy.

So I was like, all right, yeah, it looks like it's going to stay local.

We'll just stay out of New York.

They don't have a jurisdiction to go any out of state.

So let's start up again.

So we did.

We started up again.

We started going.

We did better than before.

Like, you know, just,

you know, same, same everything.

We just took like a month break or I was all or whatever.

Maybe it was a little longer now, but

started going again.

So it turns out that

the feds did pick that up.

They weren't going to, but they did.

And there was

a orchestrated strike called Operation Cyber Juice, where they were taking down a bunch of these online.

And

so they did pick them up.

It took them two years to do, two more years, a little over two more years to do all the investigation they need to do.

And they followed us around.

And so they eventually had enough.

And they organized like across the United States.

They arrested everybody at like 5 a.m.

in the morning, Eastern Standard Time.

But they arrested, there were some people even in Nevada.

But they arrested everybody at once.

Everybody.

What do you mean exactly by everybody?

Like all the chemists, all the shippers.

Holy shit.

The whole operation just went down at the same time.

And this was the information that they got.

Yeah, and they did a little over two years of

investigation.

And then they finally organized the strike.

So at the time, I lived in a penthouse overlooking Manhattan.

I was on the Jersey side.

Right on the

prayer for it.

Not the East River, the other river, the Hudson River, right on the Hudson River, overlooking Manhattan.

I had this like this $9,000 a month penthouse.

And I'm, so I'm sitting there.

I had just got home from a vacation from Vegas.

And I was kind of beat up from the Vegas vacation.

So I was just like taking a few days off.

And

all of a sudden, like on a Wednesday, it was

September 23rd, 2015.

So at the time I was

34

I think yeah 34 I was about to turn 35

I was I was in bed

and all of a sudden I hear this knock on the door or not a knock a pound on the door and

my dog started barking

I'm like, what?

I'm like, did I really hear that?

Like I woke up.

I'm like, this can't be real.

And then sure enough, another pound and my dogs are going crazy.

My girlfriend at the time got up and she went out.

And I like slowly got up, put it, put a t-shirt on.

And I was like, I was like getting mad.

I'm like, who the hell do I think is going to pound on my door at five in the morning?

And I slowly walk out there.

And then she's coming back from the door.

And she was like, I can't see out the peephole.

They have their hand on it.

So I'm mad.

And I just go charging at that door.

I'm like, I'm going to show whoever is out here that they're not going to pound on my door at five in the morning.

So I swing open the door and it's freaking

a bunch of people with DA bulletproof vests on and they have guns pointed at my head.

And there's just like 15 of them deep.

And they're just in this hallway in this penthouse.

And the guy,

the guy put his hand on the door and the lead guy was the post office inspector, the federal post office inspector who found.

who found this the first place.

He like had made it his special little little project to get it taken by the feds.

Had he just given up, the feds never were going to take it.

Damn.

So it was this one guy, and he wanted to be there to make sure I knew that he was the one.

He was in Syracuse.

This was New York, like close to New York City.

He just, he just had this heart on for it.

So

they come in, they cuff us.

They're like, do you know why we're here?

I'm like, I have no idea.

I knew why they were there.

And they

put me in a chair and they were just like, and this is, I don't know why this felt a little good for some reason,

but the cops or other, you know, they come in and they start searching, and they keep coming to me.

This is a beautiful place.

Oh my God.

You know, again, the floor-to-ceiling windows overlooking Manhattan.

And I don't know why that gave me a moment of solace for some reason.

But

that was it.

I didn't actually spend any time in jail that night.

I just went down and I got released.

And I didn't go to jail for another like two years.

Whoa.

And then I had, and I got, I eventually got sentenced to six and a half years.

But I didn't go for two more years, which is, you know, anybody else in that position, just go right into prison.

Cause

that two years I was out, but I knew I was going to prison was just shitty.

It was just the terrible.

It was terrible.

You know, you're going to prison.

What do you, what can you do with yourself?

Like, it's just depression and feeling like shit and no ambition because like, I got to go to prison.

What exactly happened in those two years?

Why?

Yeah, just the court case.

So you got to, you know, I even pled not guilty.

Like,

and I didn't want him to start threatening to take some of my family or some of my friends.

So I just immediately just pud guilty.

Just,

you got me.

Let's just, let's just end this.

That's, that's what happened.

That's how you?

Yeah.

Okay.

I just pled guilty.

Yeah.

The thing is that they didn't have, they really didn't have that great information.

Because again, we were all anonymous and they, they would, they had all this, what they considered evidence of pictures of

people taking packages to the post office, but no evidence of what was in those packages.

They'd be like, Oh, yeah, we were officers, we ordered from this, and we did get steroids, okay, but you have no idea who actually sent those steroids.

Um, they didn't have like clear, definitive evidence, but what they do have, and this is what's what's

you know

shitty about a conspiracy theory, is all they needed was

the other guys in the conspiracy to point to me as the leader.

And that's enough.

They don't need any other evidence.

They had like, because I had, I think 12 people got busted at the,

in that, we actually had more than that at Operation, but 12 of them got busted.

And if they had like 10 guys saying that, oh yeah, he was the

he was the leader of this, then that's all they needed.

So, you know, a lot of times I tell that story just to tell this, right?

Is

I did knowingly break the law.

I knew what I was doing.

I broke the law.

I am accountable for those actions.

I did my time.

And I understand that.

But, you know, what I used to say that this was a story of redemption, but

my

why hasn't changed.

The reason I did all this hasn't changed is I love to help people.

And I have a specific set of knowledge about

this industry or this field.

that really helps people.

I've just done it more than anybody else.

And

that's, you know, so that's why when I came out, I wanted to do this legally, legitimately.

I actually wrote the business plan in prison for the company that I own now, HorlonesFromi.com.

I actually wrote the business plan and I executed it, came out and executed it.

And now I'm able to do this legally, legitimately with people's long-term health and safety in mind.

And now we're really helping people.

There's dramatically improving quality of life, especially to people who don't know about, they don't understand the benefits of it.

And

i feel like it's easy for a lot of people that also might have a little bit more of a cynical view to uh believe when they hear people say that they want to help people but i mean obviously a lot of people on this in this audience didn't also hear you giving me all this types of advice and things about my personal life before you even started the podcast so it's clear i can feel the passion in you and i can feel how much you do care about helping people which is really awesome thank you um and it's also something i've always found very interesting of a lot of great people i met that came out of prison.

Two of my best friends also went to prison.

One of them was selling drugs.

And

they're just two of the best people I've ever met in my life, which is really

kind of ironic sometimes.

It's contrary to what you'd believe.

There was a lot of great people in prison.

There's a lot of great guys in there, guys that I became friends with, and I would have no problem.

trusting them with anything, any part of my life.

And that's part of the problem, right?

Is that, you know, we talked about, we talked about the dose response, right?

And, and a lot of people, they will, they like to say, okay, you're a drug dealer, you make millions of dollars.

That's, and why did you do this?

Like, you get asked that a lot.

Why did you do this?

And people like to wrap it up in this simple little box and they call it greed, right?

You just got greedy.

And they wrap it up in the simple greed box and throw it out.

And they're, okay, now I can understand it.

You were just greedy.

And

it's not that.

That's not what drives you on.

The money.

I mean, the money was nice, but that's not what drives you on.

What drives you on is, again, that helping people.

Now, people can also go and say,

if you sell other drugs, you're not helping people.

And in the long term, that's true.

But the evolved mechanism that we have where we get a dose response from helping somebody is,

it doesn't look at, okay, in the long term, are you really helping this people?

All we evolved is getting the social cues and of respect and admiration.

I did a lot of, sorry,

so you can understand, I did a lot of researching of neurobiology and human behavior.

And that's like, that's how I really was able to put all this stuff together.

The dose response, the

neurotransmitters,

it's actually pervasive and it defines human behavior like largely.

Dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins, like it largely defines human behavior.

And a lot of our behavior has to do with the increase or decrease of those.

those neurotransmitters.

So when you give somebody cocaine or whatever the drug is,

and they give you, show you respect and admiration for having something that they wanted, as a drug dealer, you get that dose response and it makes you, it makes you feel good.

You get those neurotransmitters.

So, and even though in the long term, you're not helping, your, your evolutionary biology doesn't pick up the long-term consequences of what you're doing.

All you do is you're respected.

You, people admire you for

for having this and for having money.

Money is an easy way to help people.

Like money is like a kind of a panacea for all problems you can throw money at things and it helps people right right it makes sense like when you when people say money and time are the biggest currencies you have it's like whenever you're low in those things you don't have the energy you don't have the capabilities to do more that are outside of your own like sphere yeah for yourself you know so i mean it just

it's hard for people to think about unless they think about it right no so so having money is dopamineergic more because you can People respect you and admire you and you can easily help people.

It's the easiest way to help people.

Hey, do you need $1,000?

Here you go.

Right.

For your rent or for food or whatever you need it for.

You can help people with money.

It's easy.

It's the easiest way to help people.

And so when you have it, you can help people and you get that dose response.

So it's more, even though people like to wrap it up in this simple greed ball and then throw it away and say, that guy's just greedy.

That's not it.

That's not what drives drug dealers on.

Like I said, I met, like, our prisons were full of drug dealers, right?

The prison I was in is.

It's like most, most drug dealers, right?

What's that?

You could say maybe most drug dealers.

Yeah, I can't say all, right?

There's some bad people.

Okay, so there's some people in prison who belong in prison, right?

I happen to go to a camp, which is, because I'm not violent.

So a camp's, there's no cells, there's no, there's not even any fences.

Like you can leave a camp.

A federal prison camp is, there's no cells.

There's no, it's just like these, this place you have to be in.

And you have like these bunks, right?

But So, and you have to be non-violent to get in there, right?

So in the prison I was in, the prisons I was in, there was a lot of good dudes.

I mean, not everybody.

As you go up in security, people did more and more violent things.

And there's people who belong in prison, right?

But

there is far too many people in prison who don't need to be in prison.

And

a lot of them are non-violent drug dealers.

And again, some of these guys were some of the best guys, some of the best guys I've met, just like you're saying, like your friends.

There's a lot of good dudes in

these prisons, especially the non-violent drug offenders.

Yeah.

It's such a hard thing to talk about.

I feel like it's a hard thing for me to even talk about to myself.

But it's, I know you've discussed this on other podcasts, that it's kind of clear that

even, I don't know, if all the government, but even a big part of the government is realizing certain,

some of these substances do not need to be illegal, you know, and this has just been more clear over time.

Like,

you know, alcohol, marijuana, now we're on TRT being normalized.

Yeah.

So many people are now on testosterone replacement therapy.

And we have psychotherapy also that is, I think, I don't know, I think it's fucking beautiful.

So, I mean, there's just so many realizations that in the past, you know, how many decades ago?

We all had a completely different perception of these substances.

Like, you're just like, oh, these are bad.

Immediately, the stigma is just extremely negative for anyone associated with this substance.

So it's just

like you have said before, which is something I've preached a lot.

And I discussed this on my Jubilee episode.

I was on the Jubilee episode of like steroids versus naturals.

It was kind of, it was kind of

funny.

Yeah,

I did see some of that.

That's right.

Yeah.

But my,

my, I believe my stance in that was I wasn't really like the other people on the steroid side that like

preached benefits of steroids, but I just basically preached that education is number one.

Like, no matter what happens, people are going to do what they're going to do.

And you just have to educate people on how dangerous something is or ways that you can utilize something that's beneficial for your life, you know?

We found through

so many different experiences that

controlling something that the people want to do is just not the way to handle it.

I mean, we had, we've gone through this.

We went through prohibition with alcohol.

It was like black market alcohol, there there was more violence and death was created in the name of controlling alcohol on the black market than from the drug gangs and everything that there is today.

There was more violence and death

that stemmed from that.

We have a history of it not working

to try to control something that the people want to do.

You can't, like,

intelligent governance does not look at human behavior and say, I want to regulate and make people do the things that I would do

as a congressman, right?

Well,

I wouldn't use these drugs, so therefore nobody else should, right?

And or

I don't think it's good for you to do this.

You should make regulations and laws with respect to how people actually behave, right?

People are going to do drugs.

People are going to do these things.

Education is number one.

At least you can say, and we do this now with alcohol, with nicotine.

Alcohol kills,

and this was a few years ago I got these numbers.

So it may not be accurate, probably more now, actually.

Alcohol kills about 80,000 people per year.

Nicotine in the recent past is one of the deadliest drugs on the planet, killing more than all the other drugs combined, about 400,000 people a year.

Wow, I didn't know this.

The number one cause, and these are legal, right?

But the answer isn't to control it.

The answer is to educate.

There's a lot less people smoking now because it was just a huge education campaign, right?

But nicotine isn't illegal.

It's just educated.

Now people don't, not many people smoke.

The number one cause of death in the United States is congestive heart failure from fats and sugars, from poor diet.

Why aren't sodas and cheeseburgers illegal?

Like

Mayor Bloomberg tried to, in New York City, tried to control and regulate the size of sodas that people could get.

He tried to, this is back in like 2012 or 13 or something, but he tried to instill a regulation where you couldn't buy more than like an eight ounce soda or something.

I don't remember what it was, but a small soda.

You couldn't buy the big ones.

He almost got laughed out of office.

People were just like, this is ridiculous.

At least he was taking the number one cause of death and trying to do something about it, right?

Like, so that's what I mean.

Like, why is regulating the thing that's the number one cause of death almost get laughed so somebody laughed out of the office?

But regulating testosterone, making that a a controlled substance, one of the most beneficial compounds in the history of medications.

Why, why should that be controlled?

It just doesn't make any sense.

Yeah.

I think this is one of the reasons why a lot of people are advocates of RFK.

Because now we have a 70-year-old that is

a proponent of and also uses himself TRT, testosterone, and psilocybin.

Yeah.

And I'm sure other things.

So, and it's kind of crazy to see from a 70 year old that's it is you see this is freaking healthy doing

he was like doing pull-ups yeah he was like upside down

like this

you can do that if you you can do that to that age if your hormones are right if you know he said that he's going to end the suppression of peptides which is incredibly exciting like none of this stuff makes sense like and i don't know i don't know if you want to go into some of the research i've done to what happened to create this

this massive stigmatization of these very beneficial compounds.

Maybe we can discuss it really quickly.

Well, okay, just to just to touch upon some of the things.

So testosterone took a path to demonization starting in the 80s, right?

About the 80s, early 90s.

And this was during the war on drugs.

So

it became, again, it became a controlled substance in the 1990 steroid control act.

It became banned in professional sports.

It became banned in the Olympic Committee.

So this kind of stigmatized it.

When it became a controlled substance, it made it difficult, if not impossible, to research.

So there wasn't that study.

That's why a lot of our studies come from animals, right?

Because you can't really research things on humans that are controlled substances.

So, and then strangely, from that time period, from about the late 80s to about 2015-ish, 16-ish,

there was just a string of really poorly run, strange studies that highlighted only

only the negative aspects and only the negative aspects of long-term abusive views.

And it didn't make the distinction between long-term abusive use and

therapeutic use of testosterone.

It didn't make that distinction.

It just said, here's what happens to somebody who abuses it for 20 years.

You have this problem, this problem, this problem.

Therefore, anabolic steroids cause these problems.

And, you know, anything in abusive doses is dangerous, right?

Anything.

If you drink too much water, you will die.

That is a fact.

Yeah.

This is a funny.

Okay.

That's a very funny thing that you said because Mark said that on the Jubilee podcast.

And I'm wondering if, I'm wondering where you guys got that from or if he maybe listened to my

something.

Yeah, he may be because I've said that before.

That's just something I just thought of.

Because I try to research and delineate all these different things to explain how this came.

And, you know, it turns out it's a, when you have something that's this stigmatized, something that's this off, right?

It's not just one thing.

It's that one explanation.

Because if it was one thing that was wrong, we could fix it.

And then everybody would praise testastrium for the miracle drug that it is the problem i believe with people hearing the water statement there was a big comment that was like super light on that being like yeah you got me mark fucking too much of water it was it was just like it was a funny comment about the water comparing it to steroids

but um i think the problem is uh

um

what's the fucking word i'm brain funny right now but basically people's use of words yeah um what they assign to a certain what definition they assign to a certain word.

And I think when people hear the word steroids, it's just, it's like test is a steroid.

People don't want to hear TRT as a steroid.

It's just, they don't associate TRT with the word steroid.

When they hear steroid, they think bodybuilder.

When they think steroid, they think it's a negative connotation.

Yeah, there's the negative connotation immediately.

It's the high dosages, but that's not true.

Yeah, steroid is just a class of drugs.

It's like prednisone is a steroid.

So

I think

redefining the space, I think, is going to take a long time.

Obviously, I do think these podcasts that a lot of us have are helping people, but obviously it's mostly helping the people that are interested in the substances in the first place, which is,

you know, I think because it's doing that, like this audience, the people that are listening to this podcast, I'm sure these people discuss openly maybe what they've been experiencing with others.

And I think it helps a lot by just talking about it.

Normalizing the discussion is important.

People who talk about it and everybody should disclose, yeah, this is what I'm doing because normalizing that discussion is very important.

You're doing society a disservice when you deny, deny your use and deny that this is what's helping you.

Like, I did a podcast on

the Liver King.

I thought that was awful.

Like, he has a huge platform where he could say,

Because he promotes his supplements, right?

He could promote his supplements and say, here's what it's important for me to get the way I did.

Here's Here's what's important.

Use all these nine tenets.

Use these supplements that I have, but also get your hormones right.

That's important too.

That's all he had to say.

And he still would have sold just as many supplements.

He would have been fine.

And now he wouldn't have been lying.

And now he had a platform for people to go, okay, so hormone, you got to get my hormones right here.

Instead of denying the whole time that you're doing it, like, I mean, come on.

Like, that's what we need.

We need people to come forward and say, and get your hormones right.

Like, that's important.

That's an important fact, along with all this other stuff.

So, I'd like to ask you a question because I really do like to take people's opinion and data, especially

people as researched as you are.

So,

remember, I said that through this time period,

there was just a slew of studies that came out that were just wrong and poorly run.

I mean, poorly run to the point where a professional scientist wouldn't

write these things, right?

They wouldn't make these mistakes and

kind of

allow the data to skew in this bias, bias direction, right?

And a lot of them, you know, the Women's Health Initiative for Women's HRT was one of the worst.

And

Peter, what's his name?

Shoot, I'm having a brain fart.

Peter Attia?

Attia, yeah, Peter Attia.

Jeez, I can, I'm having a brain fart too.

No, I always do.

Peter Atia

has indicated that this is one of the worst, worst things the medical community has done to medical science in the history.

Because the Women's Health Initiative was a study that came out in 2002

that

said that women's HIT can increase the risk of cancer.

It does not.

But the study showed, and then now the study has been widely discredited, the original authors have written retractions.

It's been proven how poorly the study was run.

You don't read about the retractions.

You don't read about that.

What's promulgated is the original study.

Yeah.

And that's why it's our brains are propelled to the negativity.

And it's just it single-handedly dropped the amount of women's HRT 50% across the world and prevented future people from getting HRT.

Now nobody gets HRT.

So the combined impact was probably over 80%

of women do not use HRT to this day because of this study.

And it was strange how poor it was.

Like, why was it so biased?

So why do you think?

I mean, why, like, so that's what i want to ask like what happened here why is there such bad information coming from scientists in these studies like what what is that

um i honestly don't think i'm educated enough to even know this either i just feel like um

i understand that it's hard to control some studies so it's just clear that

it's just um

there's so many studies that make mistakes

there are and that the point of a study is actually just to

to

inspire

further research.

And now let's look at the empirical data, like what actually happens in the field.

And that's what scientific theory is great to inspire

study and research.

But what's king is the empirical data.

Like, what do we see in the field?

What actually happens?

Right.

So these studies being so biased, I mean, you can start to see like, okay, it.

The only thing that really makes the most sense and which a lot of people believe is nefarious activity.

Right.

You know, so when congress made steroids a controlled substance they were afraid the they were it was at the opposition of the fda the dea

and the american medical association and one more

medical um i can't remember the other medical institute they all opposed it they said you should not make testosterone or steroids a controlled substance there's not enough evidence to show that they're that they meet that criteria and congress despite

despite the

information from these medical societies, decided to make it a controlled substance anyways, citing basically it was because of sports.

Like they didn't want,

they were concerned about America's participation in sports.

And are people not, this is exactly what Joe Biden said.

By the way, Joe Biden

was headed that, spearheaded

anabolic steroids becoming a controlled substance?

He spearheaded it.

And he said, and his exact words were: I feel like people may not show up to games, people may not watch sports anymore if we just allow this to be used.

So it's estimated that about, there's three,

exactly, yeah.

It's estimated about 3 million people use sports or use steroids recreationally

for

performance enhancement use.

there's probably about, and this is my estimation just based on what I've seen, 100 million people in the United States, a billion people worldwide who would benefit from therapeutic use of hormones, who would change their lives for the better.

So we made this a controlled substance because we were afraid that this 3 million people might

further abuse steroids instead of worrying about the 100 million people we can help with this massively, these massively beneficial compounds.

Like, it just doesn't make any sense.

So, farther nefarious play,

what makes them do that?

Is there somebody incentivizing them to do that?

Okay, so we can look at, and I don't have any direct evidence of this, but a lot of people believe this.

We look at drug companies fund medical school.

So, there's a problem with the medical institution itself, the education.

They don't educate their providers properly.

They don't learn about this in medical school.

We treat several physicians.

They all admit, we don't learn anything about this in medical school.

The little information they do learn is those studies, antiquated notions and dogma from decades ago.

Is there,

drug companies fund the medical schools.

They fund continuing medical education for providers.

They teach about

the concepts, the mechanisms of actions for the drugs that they're pushing that are going to make them a lot of money.

Are they intentionally suppressing the education of testosterone?

Because testosterone, I've seen testosterone get people off of blood pressure medications, cholesterol medications, SSRIs, Adderall,

pain medications, even opiates, because it's systemically anti-inflammatory.

It is one of the best cures for

all of the inflammatory diseases that cause inflammatory cytokines, that cause fatigue disorders, chronic fatigue syndrome,

Lyme's disease.

They're all similar similar etiologies.

Fibromyalgia.

All of these gut diseases, such as cystic fibrosis,

what's another one?

Ulcer of colitis, like some of these gut diseases, they're all autoimmune in nature and they cause inflammatory cytokines, which causes excessive fatigue and problems.

It's your body's overactive immune system

that is attacking an antigen that it believes is an antigen or a foreign body, right?

And a lot of these are just like gluten.

That's what a gluten allergy is.

It's just your body attacks gluten because it doesn't recognize it.

Not everybody has it, right?

And it's probably

an unnecessary response.

So, testosterone suppresses this overactive immune system, it reduces inflammatory cytokines, it gives people energy and

it makes them feel better from these inflammatory diseases than any other medication.

So,

why is the medical community so stigmatized and so uneducated about this?

Like,

are the drug companies actually teaching them?

are they intentionally suppressing

the education or is it just a function of and i don't have the answer to this i don't know or is it just a function of teaching only for the drugs that they're pushing and testosterone is so beneficial but they don't make a lot of money on it because the patent's up it's been around for 80 years they can't they don't make a lot of money on it because compounding pharmacies can make it and they make it for a lot cheaper than the drug companies sell it for so they can't make money on it so

they're not educating about it are Are they doing that intentionally or is it just kind of a function of they're only going to fund the education for the drugs that they're pushing?

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't know the answer to that.

But I mean,

I feel like you're pretty close to hitting the nail on that last one.

I feel like you are hitting the nail on that.

And I think whatever we feel like will benefit us is the thing that comes to our mind first whenever we're trying to survive.

And so I think those are the first things that come to their mind when they're thinking about educating.

So obviously that relates to the things that are making them money, probably likely things that they're going to be educating on.

And,

you know, I think nowadays testosterone is being educated a little bit more on because it's being sold now more.

It's becoming openly used more.

And I think it's helping that it's being, that we can access it through HRT clinics.

I think that helps a lot as well.

But

if...

That wasn't the case before, then obviously I don't think the benefits of testosterone would be discussed.

So

yeah, I think you're pretty on point with that.

So, I think hopefully, the world just continues to go in this direction where everyone's becoming more and more educated about things because that's just how this whole universe has been.

We just become more and more educated about the world.

We learn more about how it works, and we're able to pick apart pieces of empirical data and actual studies and determine what we feel like is probably the biggest truth or the truth.

So,

I think that's why I really enjoy bodybuilding too, is because bodybuilding is a very unstudied place, right?

We just have a fuck ton of random empirical data from a bunch of different coaches.

So that's another thing.

The bodybuilding community is light years ahead of the medical community in understanding mechanisms of action and the benefits of all these compounds.

Like that's again, like, why, why?

Why is that?

We've kind of defined that, right?

The massive amount of empirical data and the stigmatization throughout the medical community.

But to be honest with you, the people running these studies should be asking us.

They should be asking you.

They should be asking me.

They should be asking Kurt Chase, Paul Burnett.

They should be asking those guys for help

in forming these studies because nobody knows more about them than all of us influencers.

I think that's why I really love how

the world is also.

like everyone's been saying, is starting to listen more to podcasts.

That's where they're getting a lot of their information from, kind of like in this last election.

So it was really cool to see more plays, more dates go on Joe Rogan's podcast like two times now, maybe three.

And I think that's really phenomenal too.

I think it would be cool if, like you said,

they still

looked to some of these spearheads of information, you know,

had more conversations between like Peter Attia and More Plays More Dates and things like this.

But obviously the people that are educating the masses now are kind of just trying to create their own living too.

And just like Derek making his own HRT clinic as well.

And I feel like

that's why it's a good idea for people to just maybe, if they really need professional medical advice, to consult with HRT clinics and people that are actually experienced with bodybuilders, because these are people that know what you're going through and also will not discriminate for whatever you're doing.

The medical community also doesn't know anything about diet and how important that is.

Like they don't teach that.

So it's like you go to a dietitian or a bodybuilder

who, who understands the diet aspect behind, behind looking the way that, you know, being healthy and looking the way, like, you're going to get so much better information around the

compounds to use, you know, the benefits and the diet aspect that that's really important.

The number one thing I think that's most important is take your health in your own hands.

Like you can't, one of the problems is that we've put providers on a pedestal.

And we,

we, like everywhere you turn, somebody's like, ask your doctor about this.

What am I going to ask my doctor?

My doctor, you know, no offense to them, like they're, they're not taught everything.

They're fallible.

They're humans.

They're, they're taught what the drug companies want them to know.

My opinion is having having multiple sources of reference and

kind of like how a lot of very advanced athletes have multiple coaches.

I, for example, also have multiple coaches and multiple people that I can consult with.

So I have my main physician,

but then I also have the doctor I speak to in my HRT clinic and discuss that blood work with as well.

I have a cardiologist.

Then I have, obviously, my main bodybuilding coach.

And then I have like opposing coach.

I just have so many different.

And from that, I am the main source of like whatever my decisions.

But at least now, instead of having.

one study or one piece of empirical data or one source, one coach, I have all of these different sources.

And most of the time, they all agree.

Most of the time.

So it makes it easier for me to make the decision.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And that's a good way to do it.

Take a eclectic set of information, bring it all together.

Take your health in your own hands and make your own decision in the end.

But

like,

you know,

putting

like just the general practitioner on a pedestal, I think is

what causes the problems.

Again, they do a great job.

They don't know everything.

They're not taught everything.

Right.

So they're not taught anything about these hormones.

So when we we start saying, well, my doctor says this, well, they're not taught about that.

And I think part of the problem is that they are put on the pedestal and they believe that, the hubris that comes along with it is like, no, I know, I went to medical school.

I know all the information.

I know I'm the best source of all the information.

And like you said, it's really more eclectic than that.

You have to go to specialists.

You have to get your own, do your own research, make your own decision.

Yeah.

And there's still so many things in the medical field that people will disagree on.

So

that's a good, another good idea.

Throughout history, we have multiple examples of where the entire medical community has just gone wrong and taught the wrong thing and understood things incorrectly.

Like, why would we think this is any different?

Right.

One more thing before we move on.

So one of the things that my company is working on is going to start, is, you know, we have planned to work on is going to be to spearhead the

descheduling of testosterone and the rest of the compounds too.

So, you know, one of the ways we can do this is we have to, essentially, we have to, we have to build a legal team and build up

a,

we're going to have a brain fart here.

The,

what are the, what are the, a lobby group, right?

So, so I was going to, you know, reach out to Rick Collins.

Um, we were going to, he can kind of, we can create a net

a

non, not for profit

arm to our company.

We can put a bunch of money in escrow or an account in escrow, right?

So now we can take donations.

My company is certainly going to donate.

We can have other influencers say, hey, we're working on the descheduling of testosterone.

We can all get together.

All of us can get together, get donations, hire a lobby group, go to Congress.

And then actually, Dr.

Todd Lee had a great idea.

We can come up with a symbol for what we're doing, like the, you know, my body, my rights type of thing.

And like the symbol can be whatever, whatever we decide.

But say it's a blue ribbon or something.

We can have all of the House of Members, House of Representative members, and the Congress, the Senate.

And we can say these ones are blue ribbon certified, which means that they support descheduling testosterone or the rest of the

derivatives.

And that way, you know, these things will be easier for people to get a hold, you know, so people can use them for benefit.

Again, there's 100 million people in the United States who could benefit from these, but

don't know enough about it.

So that's what we want to spearhead.

We want to spearhead the descheduling of these compounds so that we can easier, it's easier to help people and we can do it for less money.

And one of the problems with TRT is it's still expensive.

Like we try to do what we can,

but it's still out of a lot of people's price range.

And if we can deschedule it, deregulate it, then we can do it for a better price.

Yeah.

And that's important too.

So that's what, you know, that's what we're going to work on.

So, yeah.

And I'll let you know too.

And we, once, once we have this donation platform and all this education, then we can just let all of our audience know how they can help.

Gotcha.

So regarding the empirical data,

what did you learn when you were helping bodybuilders with their protocols for stage?

More about...

so this was early, right, when

some of the education wasn't crisp, but more about using

the transition from

long esters to short esters in the right timeframes

and what to use to really pull out of the water,

getting close to competition.

It's pretty common knowledge now, so any coach understands this now.

But back in 2010, it wasn't as well known exactly how to do this.

Okay, I see.

Would you say there's there's anything specific that you can think of?

I know it's been like a while.

But is there anything specific that you can think of that you feel like you found of interest?

So, like, I guess, yeah, yeah.

And I still, I still say this today.

I still think this is a little, is not done exactly correctly.

There's a few things.

One is the massive disparity.

in the way each individual reacts to different compounds, different blood levels, different dosages, different protocols.

So even coaches tend to,

they can't see outside their own self-centricity.

Even some of the greater influencers that a lot of people watch and they respect, some of them still can't completely see out of their own self-centricity.

And what I mean by this is that they think that whatever happens with them or a few of their

good clients, is how everybody should react.

And they don't understand that there's that it's so individualized and some people react so differently to the same exact compounds that it's really about

about

finding you figuring out what yields the best results for each individual and I think that you get coaches who have their favorite products or favorite compounds and they just use them for everybody and I think that's where people still go awry

We need to understand them all and we need to understand that sometimes

something that you don't typically use may may benefit a different client

more so than

it could benefit another, a separate client.

Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I find the most exciting about discussing these things on the podcast.

Like, I love talking about alt bodybuilding.

Like, I think treating nutrition is, I mean, I really do think it's more important when it comes to the pro stage, of course, because everyone's running similar things.

But it's so, the pharmacology is so interesting to me.

And it's so interesting to a lot of people, you know, now we have all these educated people that are talking about it.

But

it's clear in every single person I've talked to that's experienced in the field that it is so individual independent to such a crazy degree.

And

the

just normies or people that aren't really in the bodybuilding community that much or that aren't real like in relation to coaches, like a lot of them don't really understand.

And I don't want to say like some people with low IQs just can't comprehend it, but it's just certain people that aren't really in it just do not

can't seem to absorb that,

bro, this guy's so different from you.

You can't compare yourself to him.

Your dosages are going to be so different potentially.

The compound that you're going to feel is so different.

If they're saying that they feel like shit on, or they're saying they feel like they're great on trend.

They're probably not lying.

They're probably just different.

Yeah.

And you just have to accept that.

Yeah.

I couldn't couldn't have stated that better.

It's, yeah.

Um, again, it's natural for people not to be able to see outside their own self-centricity.

Most people can't.

Even, like I said, even some of our top influences that people respect really well still have that tendency.

So it's net, it's normal.

But once you experience this and you start seeing populations, so so the people who are really good, and I'll tell you how you can point this out with somebody, when you hear the word, somebody use the word I a lot or, or talking about somebody that they know, right?

They use the word I a lot, then they're inside their own self-centricity.

People who have experienced this a lot, like I can stand on my mountaintop and look down on all the massive amount of empirical data I've aggregated over the decades, and I can just see trends and different things happening.

And here's what happens.

So people who are really good at this, who have seen it a lot, talk in terms of percentages of populations that react this way to this compound,

or, you know, or some people react like this, most people react like this, but then there's a few that react like this to this compound.

And in this case, this is what I've seen done.

This works, you know,

sometimes like if you react this way to this compound, then doing this reacts well with some people, or doing this with others.

And then you just have this whole, it becomes more of an algorithm.

If this, then try this, this, or this.

If that, then try that, that, or that, right?

It becomes this algorithm of things that you've seen.

And it's not not about

it's it's about again that's the methodology to figure out what yields the best results for each individual right is essentially we have to run little experimentations but but the experienced can see things and know how to fix something or do something a little better because they've seen they've seen it work

yeah this is kind of

it's silly for i think it's funny for me to say this but i mean this is one of the reasons why i enjoy looking at like uh forum pages like Reddit is like, it's, it's like you just want to look up the symptoms of something.

Like, for example, like Brozak and Mobutin or

freaking NPP and DECA or something.

And then you'll just see a wide variety of side effects that are all different for all people, but you can also see like the thumbs up and how many people.

relate to that certain side effect.

So it's like you see the percentage of side effects, you know, and it's easier for you to determine like, what is the percentage of me feeling this?

There's still a percentage that I don't feel this to, right?

Um, I love Reddit for that.

Reddit, you have to be very careful with Reddit because you're getting a lot of very ignorant opinions, and it's full of people who can't see outside their own self-centricity.

However, if you want to look up individualized responses and say, and so if you react a certain way to something, you can find other people who have have the same response, see how they've handled it, and you can get some valuable information that way for sure.

100%.

And one thing I really like that Stefan keinzel talks about he just he discussed this on a podcast but he said uh the way that he works with a lot of his clients is for example if you have

uh if you have hematocrit problems

don't choose eq in your offseason this is for off-season components if you experience levels of anxiety and um

libido problems then probably don't use Neanderlone.

If you experience

like like a lot of DHT symptoms that you can't handle or you don't want to go through, such as like excessive hair loss or something, then maybe that's a good place to like avoid either masturbine or pun, depending on which one seems to react more for you in that fashion.

So he like picks and chooses based off of like the symptoms you experience and how you feel on them, how it affects your blood work.

And that's what people choose for their off-season cycles.

Whereas like you think of people that there's a lot of people who like just jump into gear in the first place and they're wondering, what, what is the secret compound, or what is the secret thing that this person is doing?

What's the secret compound, the secret dose that this person's using to look like that?

But that's not the truth.

It's their look, is their genetic, whatever their shape of their body is.

And then the compound they're using to get that size is whatever is likely working the best for their blood work and their mental health and their symptoms.

If hopefully they're not experiencing those, but of course, there's that percentage of people that are that still experience some shitty side effects or mental side effects from too high doses of compounds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I couldn't have said that better.

It's, um,

uh,

and that's what, that's what I used to get to, especially like running this, is especially new people would be like, okay, what do I run?

You know, tell me, tell me what to do.

They want, they want you to just tell them exactly what to do.

The more you know, the more you realize that you can't do that.

Like you can't, I can give you a methodology.

And that's what I try to do in my hormone clinic too, is I teach people a methodology so that, you know, a lot of, a lot of other, you know, hormone clinics or dosages with anything, they just give people a protocol, just stay on this protocol.

And I try to teach people about the actual pharmacology and what we're looking to do and the methodology behind figuring out what works best for them so that people can dial themselves in.

Right.

What, what led you to believe that

geared nowadays may be potentially more potent?

Well, just with the, you know, as time has gone on, like,

which isn't always the best thing, but, but they're making, they're making like higher and higher doses of it.

I mean, just simply based on that.

Like you can have, I mean, depending on what carrier oils or solvents you're using, you can make things really high-dosed.

I mean, so,

I mean, that's what I'm not sure exactly what like Lee Priest meant by it's better.

It was better, like better in what context, because we can get 400 milligram testosterone.

They didn't have that back in Lee Priest day.

No, I think it's, it's not, I don't know if it's what Lee Priest said.

I think it's, I believe it's Fuad stating what

just is a common thing for a lot of bodybuilders in the day and age to say is like back then fucking gear was like this good or whatever, this good or whatever, which

for me has always been like, I haven't really seen any data or empirical data on it.

I just hear some people making the claims.

But then also, I hear some people making claims like Primo is great now.

Most of the time, Primo is pure now.

Back then, Primo was always faked.

So it's like, there's so much contradicting,

there's somewhat contradicting things that people are saying.

So I firmly believe that's true.

It's so easy.

It's so much easier.

Like the fact that Primo is faked or even steroids in general are faked is kind of, it's an older mentality now, because getting the real thing is actually a lot easier now like getting real primos i mean

again there's there's different methodologies you can use to source your powders but but it's

it's the same thing um as far as it's not hard to get real stuff anymore so and it doesn't make sense to fake it everybody knows primo is going to cost more it's not like you're going to make

you know and and people can test things now right like back when i was doing this that you you couldn't send vials to any company now they have a few companies that you can actually send vials to they'll actually test it for you send you the results and people do that so if you're if you're selling fake primo or fake something you're going to get caught like somebody's going to take your stuff and send it to one of these labs and test it and then come back and and post it all over the boards that you got fake primo or fake whatever and nobody's going to buy from you anymore like those bad reviews like will tank a company yeah the reviews are everything yeah it's huge

every company and that's a that's a huge part of it so um

and that's why but it's also so beneficial to the consumer because things that's where you can find good companies now from the ones that consistently produce good good products good quality products yeah you could see the same for social media influencers and creators too oh yeah it's not just like products like if someone's being ingenuine or whatever yeah everyone's gonna post about it

so um yeah so like i mean it's not hard to get rid of people anymore there was a time when it was and there was a time when it was fake a lot but i just don't see that there's no reason for it do you happen to have any details on why it's easier to get now?

Just probably China, like, because they, once they saw how lucrative it is, like, it's not illegal over there, and they don't, there's no punishments for them selling anabolic service to us as in the United States.

And they have, so they, like, when I started to rise, I had hundreds of Chinese suppliers reaching out to me.

And what I did is I would, at the time, we didn't, I couldn't send it to a lab and have everything tested.

So what I had to do is I got samples from like 100 different suppliers and

I would actually, like, we would try it on ourselves first.

And then I would have my

client base help me, like crowdsourcing, right?

I would send them like a free vial and say, I would ask who wanted to help, wanted to help us, you know, really get quality products.

So I would send them.

a batch and I would say, on this day after this, go get your levels tested.

I want to see how high it gets your levels.

Now, everybody's a little different in that, but at least I could start to see consistency.

And we we did that with HDH too.

So we would get HDH and I would have people take 10 IUs,

go, and I would have my, my, whoever wanted to help in my client base do this.

And three hours later, go get your HDH serum levels tests.

And I, and the ones that were most consistently high, that's how I narrowed down who I was using for my HDH supplier.

Now, at the time, nobody else was doing this.

Nobody was testing their products.

They were just picking a source and going with it.

I was actually doing the research to narrow it all down.

And I was the only one doing that.

I probably had the

best source quality, powder source quality in the entire world at the time because I was the only one doing that.

Wow.

How long, how many years did you have this operation for?

It went a little over five years,

close to six.

Damn.

You don't have to know like an approximate total of how much you made, do you?

I didn't keep accounting, but I mean, what I've thought about before estimated was probably around

between 20 and 30 million.

Crazy.

Just asking for a friend.

All right, we got a Q ⁇ A.

Let's do this.

Let me go on Q ⁇ A real quick.

Real Viking Pocket Poppy.

I know this guy, and I still said it wrong.

Would you do it again?

What are the biggest issues you see with UG Labs?

That's a great question, actually, because I get asked that a lot.

Like,

especially when, even, especially when, you know, I was first going through all the problems.

And even in prison,

people asked me that.

Like,

you know, so I had,

I mean, again, I had people I still do every day that email me telling me, thank you.

Thank you for what you do.

My life is so much better because of these.

And, you know,

you know, the only reason I did it wasn't because of the money, but I was able to, you know, live a really nice lifestyle.

I can't deny that it wasn't fun.

So I guess I've always said that you're goddamn right, it was worth it.

And would I do it again?

No, because now I've come up with a way to do it legitimately.

So I can do the same thing, just legitimately.

So, no, I wouldn't do it illegally again.

But if somebody asks, was it worth it?

I say, you're goddamn right it was.

But now, you know, again, part of I was able to, I use the time in prison wisely, like a lot of people don't.

And I don't blame people for not because doing, using the time wisely is not incentivized at all.

But I just read voraciously and I actually put the business plan together for this.

So I actually thought about, okay, how do I get better?

Like,

you know, again, really quickly talking about drug dealers, some of the problem is people do things illegally, not because they're stupid or don't care about others.

They do it because they don't know what else to do, right?

Prisons don't help that.

Like despite what people think that there are educational programs in prison, they're garbage.

Prisons should be educational facilities that teach people what else to do,

how to survive, how to teach people about the economy, how to do something legal to support yourself.

And they don't do that at all.

I did use my time wisely.

I thought about how can I do this?

I read voraciously.

I sat down with some other entrepreneurs, like really successful business people and wrote a business plan.

And then I executed the business plan.

So,

but again, most people don't, you're not incentivized to do that.

So, most people don't.

But, so no, I wouldn't do it again, but it was worth it.

What are the biggest issues you see with UG Labs?

Let's see, nowadays, or back then, nowadays, they're a lot better.

And like, again, I'm not saying I was totally totally the reason, but I was the first one that I saw that started

priority shipping for everybody.

And, you know, I even offered free shipping, but also like the customer service, the education.

And now, like, every, every company is doing that.

I mean, it was probably going to happen anyways, but, but, um,

and I, so every company has, has kind of followed suit with, with the model that, you know, I'm not going to say I was the sole creator of the model that they're all using today, but I was certainly one of the first ones to do it.

So, in that,

in that rationale, I think they're all a lot better at it now.

I'm trying to think think what I see wrong with them now.

I read some of the reviews

when you told me the website, and they're all crazy positive.

And it sounds like there's even like a comment about how they love how all their stuff always comes in within four days and all these things.

So, yeah, that was a matter of plus like the customer service.

Like, I really, you know, I took the time to talk and help everybody.

And I guess, I guess that if I had something, it would be that.

Like,

I'm not saying the customer service would be bad now, but

like,

I don't think they know enough about the compounds they're selling.

Some of them, some of them don't know enough about the compounds, not all of them, of course, to really give any,

like, this is how you should use this.

For instance, I sold Trend.

It was one of my best sellers, but I told people, listen, don't, I, I recommend you don't use this unless there's a purpose, unless you're actually going for a competition.

This can have some serious side effects.

And, yeah, and the dosages are too high.

Like, that's another problem with people record just using trend just to use it right like

it's very potent and it i've seen it bring people's lives down

if you know these are people doing it stupid like doing just a thousand milligrams a week of just trend like that's all wrong it's just like that's dumb like don't do that

and i've seen it wreck people's lives and they don't realize it because they love it they love the effects right and they're but they're sitting there fighting with their with their parent with their family with their girlfriends or whatever and losing their job because they're freaking out of their their jobs and then wondering why their life is in a downward spiral.

It's like you're, they can't really see it because they, I don't know, it's like it's to the person using it, they don't realize that they're acting weird.

So it's like, I would always tell people, don't, don't use trend.

Like I would help people with these products, right?

So I think like some of that, some of that,

like one of the, one of the problems that like all of the regulators and even the medical community, they're like, well, you don't know what you're getting and you could be using anything and this and that.

And I don't think that's true because again, the review system, like if there was something, somebody, one UGL doing something that was actually hurting people, it would, that would come out.

Like the reviews would say that.

And then that company went last.

Right.

So

the review system really helps a lot.

But I think like they should, like if we start taking on some responsibility to make this less dangerous for people, start talking about, hey, like, you know, unless you're specifically doing this for a competition, like, let's ease up on the doses.

Let's not use so much trend.

Let's, uh, here's some

keeping your product, your,

your, your, your protocol simple.

Um, just use testosterone unless, you know, unless, you know, there's some other compounds that are helpful, but, but don't get complex.

Don't, don't use tons of this other stuff.

I like the preacher same things as John Jewett, that like, for example, like 100 to, like, like, for example, 50 to 150 milligrams of trend, that's still going to give give you the effect of reducing

cortisol and

brain farting now again, too, but

muscle breakdown, which is

really the main benefit that you want out of it.

Obviously, you're going to get the look, but you get the look from other compounds as well, like Mastron, Primo, or

Winstrall, for example, Halotestin.

um halotest i'm just crazy for some people but it's like if you get that look from other compounds

then why do you need to stack it with the same look again on trend and the same look on like you, you really don't need all those things to look great for a show, especially if you're not like

even some people on Olympia-level open bodybuilding don't need that, yeah, you know, totally

definitely doesn't need that.

Yeah, um, some of these new guys do they want to come in, they think that they want this complex stack that that

you or or some other coach or even myself is going to come up, just give me the stack that's going to

turn me into a professional, Mr.

Olympian.

And so they think it's complex.

And

when you start helping people and you put together something simple for them, because that's how you should start it.

It should be simple.

Keep it simple.

We don't need to add five different things.

We're just increasing the potential for side effects

when we start adding all these other different things.

so that's what i would say is like i think the ugl should start taking responsibility for for all the negative feedback that that the regulators and the medical community um is saying about us and let's start getting safer let's start like teaching people safety and and and how to do i don't know how ugl can take responsibility for that and educate them like when i was doing i used to tell people like when i'd sell somebody trend i'd be like

Before I sell you this, like, you know, how much are you using?

I don't think, like, this probably isn't necessary unless you're going for, if you do, just use really small doses.

You don't need big doses.

Okay.

So, I mean, you can approximate it in that way.

Like, I'm still not going to tell somebody that they can't buy a bunch of trend, but at the same time, I'm going to, I'm going to say this could lead to problems if you take too much of this.

Okay, I see what you're saying.

So, just start, you know, just simple things like that.

Yeah, I think that just leads down the road of like.

hoping that people care more, though.

Yeah.

And I agree.

I think people should always just care more, but it's a

it's a hard thing.

It's a hard thing to ask in society, or it's a hard thing to

have happen.

I think the only thing we can do is like what you're saying is just to talk about it and

say it's a good idea.

Yeah.

There's a lot of people asking the questions along the lines of like, what are some signs of a good UGL and things.

I'm assuming that you're going to say something along the lines of like, you kind of just need to get it tested or if you get a bunch of symptoms that aren't expected?

Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is just the review.

The review system is great.

So if you have a UGL that's getting a lot of positive reviews, like look them up on different forums, read the reviews, read a lot of them.

And if they're just consistently getting good reviews, I think it's safe.

But yeah, because,

and yeah, if you want to be proactive, like you yourself could actually test some of these stuffs and then go ahead and release what you find.

Like,

you know.

So I think, yeah, it has to do with that.

Like, like I said, nowadays, people can actually send their vials to get tested.

So

if you

do have fake or low-quality things, it will come out.

I think the review system is one of the great things.

Did you see, too, that

Robert Albrick is out of prison now?

He's the one who pioneered the whole review, the idea for the review system for different drugs.

But it's helped because people can actually

use a UGL-informed

now.

Yeah, like they're definitely going to get it anyway.

So they might as well get something that's beneficial for them.

Warry Wick asks, hey, sir, Ryan, would you give us a rough number of how many people you think are secretly on PEDs in our gyms and society?

Yeah.

No, it's increased, as you've talked about, like the

normalizing of the discussion.

A lot more people are using it now.

And I think,

and I think a lot of people are using it more safely.

Like, I don't get.

I think blood work and organ imaging, all these things are, now that they're discussed, they're so much more common.

Yeah.

It's widely discussed now.

And I don't get too many people who aren't concerned with,

you know, with the long-term health.

Like,

and, you know, I don't see just, I don't, I don't really see people just throwing complete caution to the wind and just doing whatever, whatever the heck they can put in their body.

I mean, not that it doesn't happen, but it's very far and few between now because of all the educations and like your channel and another channel, like people are learning and people are, people want to, want to be healthy about this.

Yeah.

So

it's, it's a lot more now.

And certainly when I was doing this, there was a lot of people keeping it secret, people who didn't want to tell anybody.

So there was a lot of people who, who were on it that weren't telling anybody.

But I think the normalizing the discussion is important and talking about it is important

so that other people can benefit from these.

So I do think think there's a lot more people on it now.

And I guess I don't think anybody should keep it to themselves.

Christina

Senettino.

Christina Setino.

What's the compound people would buy most other than testosterone?

That's a great question.

So yeah, my

yeah, like

just test sip or test sinantate was my number one seller, but close to that was probably Oxandrolin or novar

that was a huge seller wow here's here's a here's a tip for everybody you want like a tip that probably only i'll talk about

um stanozolol

winstrol is a different compound but the physical

um

the physical way your body reacts to it is very similar to oxandrolone There's only a few, and one of the things, if you look it up, people will talk about, oh, it caused joint pain.

And a couple of people post about that.

So now everybody doesn't want to try it because they're scared of joint pain.

It very, very rarely causes joint pain in people.

It is just as anabolic.

It reacts very similarly in the body, and it's significantly less expensive.

Try standozolol

and see, and see if it doesn't cause.

any side effects, which for most people, it does not.

And I experienced that.

I used to tell people, like, I sold xandrol it was my best seller but i'm like why don't you use i'm trying to help people i'm like the standozo is a lot less expensive do you think you're like very similar do you think you feel that way because maybe you're like experience in empirical data is with like lower dosages and or maybe uh lower lengths of time because i'm i'm used to seeing a lot of people in the competitive space that have run wind stroll at higher dosages or for longer lengths of time and especially towards the end like when they're getting close to getting on show is when a lot of issues seem to be happening with dryness that seem to be related to wind stroll um such as the joint pain yeah i well i mean i i had so many people that used it for a long time like what you're saying isn't um

like i've heard before right but again it's like you know we're

The bodybuilding community is such a small portion of all of the people who use PEDs.

And maybe they're doing something else that would also, because you're also reducing your estrogen, right?

And a lot of the joint pain probably comes from that because you're trying to pull all the water yourself.

And one way they do that is they go off all aromatizing compounds.

You bring your estrogen to the single disease.

That's completely true.

You're going to have joint pain from that.

For people I've seen, and a lot of them use it regularly, who are not competing, most people do not get joint pain from standard law.

So, like Paul Burnett, like, you know, we just, I go on his live show every week, and

he was talking talking about

the joint pain from his last competition.

And he did stay on Stanozol

and he did great.

He looked phenomenal.

He was talking about joint pain.

We looked at his labs and he had single-digit estradiol.

And he started taking 300 milligrams of testosterone and it didn't come back as estradiol, which I've seen before.

I've seen people don't recover their estradiol right away.

So he had to start taking D-ball and his joint pain, his joints hurt and everything.

Still, after he stopped the Winstrel, went on the testosterone, his joints still hurt because his estradiol was still low.

He had to go on D-ball, which aromatizes a lot, and it kicked his estradiol up, and then his joint pain went away.

So it's probably low estrogen that's causing bodybuilders who are stepping on stage on the joint pain.

Okay.

I,

yeah, honestly, that kind of does resonate.

Um, Winstrel does give me joint pain to a certain degree, but it's

it's it's so minimal until the estrogen drops.

And I think the symptoms of both compound

to become what it is.

And I agree that likely most of it is more from the drop in estrogen.

Yeah, that's cool.

So

the mechanism for that, by the way, is nobody really knows exactly, but my theory

is that you can do some research and learn that one of the metabolites of stanozolol antagonizes the glucocortico could antagonize the glucocorticoid receptor, which would

which would, if it antagonizes it, it's blocking it.

So you would have

it would be less inflammatory.

I mean, let's see, it reduces

it prevents

the anti-inflammatory nature of it, right?

So that's probably the mechanism, although it doesn't seem to affect most people who,

again, have adequate estradiol, or

it just doesn't seem to affect

most people who, you know, who aren't in that competing,

you know, when you're going to have low estradiol.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Ellie Bell asks, did people respect what you did to get into jail when you were there?

It's a good question, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A lot of, you know, because a lot of people had tried it themselves, you know, tried steroids here and there themselves.

And so,

you know, when I was, you know, one of the

larger dealers in U.S.

history, like, yeah, people had a lot of respect for it.

Yeah.

Robbie Miro asks,

which compounds more ideal and manageable for those with heart burmurs?

I mean,

so

in this case, it would be something that doesn't

activate the sympathetic nervous system.

so yeah like you said before like this could be this could be exacerbated by um like dht derivatives that would

um

more so increase the

not not saying all dht derivatives because they don't act the same and a lot of dht derivatives don't act like dht

and that's a common misconception too they think people think that

People think that just because something's a DHT derivative, it's going to act like DHT.

And the fact is that a lot of them don't.

They don't even come close to acting like it.

Just because it's a derivative doesn't not mean it has the same pharmacokinetics as DHT.

However, the idea of increasing, like, because

all androgens increase tyrosine kinase, which increases not only dopamine, but norepinephrine and epinephrine.

And sometimes that for some people can increase the central nervous state where now your heart rate's going to increase and you're going to be kind of in a fight or flight state.

For some people, it can do that, right?

And the

DHT itself is more potent androgen for that.

So, so sometimes the increased DHT can

cause that for some people.

So,

I would say, I mean, but still, testosterone is what you want to use.

So, I would say keep it simpler if you have a heart membrane with just moderate doses of testosterone.

Okay.

Teddy Washington asks, it's a HCG versus HMG versus

gonadorellin for preventing hypogonadism.

For preventing hypogonadism?

Yeah.

He added an L in there.

He added some letters in there.

But yeah.

Hypogonadalism.

Okay, hypogonadism.

All right.

So

I think this is a great question.

So

for simple terms of

fertility, right?

Fertility concerns, gonadorelin gets a really bad rap.

Gonadorellin, so the way it works is your hypothalamus produces gonadotropin-releasing hormones, which stimulates the pituitary gland to produce both luteinizing hormone and falco-stimulating hormone, which then the luteinizing hormone stimulates the testicles to produce testosterone.

HCG mimics the luteinizing hormone, so it directly stimulates the testicles to produce testosterone.

In a backhanded manner, it also increases FSH, though.

So

you get FSH and stimulation of endogenous production of testosterone.

Gonadorellin mimics the gonadotropin-releasing hormone.

So again, the hypothalamus, when it reads testosterone is low, low, it produces gonadotropin-releasing hormone that tells the pituitary gland to produce

the gonadotropins.

So, gonadorellin mimics gonadotropin-releasing hormone.

Now,

it kind of and so it kind of depends on what type of hypogonadism we have, whether it be secondary or primary.

For primary, like nothing's going to help, HCG isn't going to help, gonadorellin is not going to help.

For secondary hypogonadism,

HCG can work for that.

HMG is just a combination of HCG and FSH, essentially.

So,

I mean, HCG is typically probably a little, whatever's, whichever one's cheaper for you, I think, would be fine.

I mean,

again, if we're looking for testosterone levels, HCG is a pure mimic to luteinizing hormone.

But in terms of fertility while you're on protocol, like, I think Gonadaron gets a bad rap.

I think it works

to

ensure, maintain fertility, but also ensure testicular, to prevent testicular atrophy as well, which some people are concerned with, most people aren't.

And I think it works pretty well.

But, and HCG can cause problems when you're using it on protocol, like it's a complicating factor.

It can increase steratogenesis and increase the production of, especially spike estradiol, which can be a problem for a lot of people, some people, not everybody.

the steroidesis, so the production of cortisol and progesterone as well.

So, and some of the times these can be complicating for people.

So, HCG can cause problems.

And gonadarolin, I don't have the problems.

I don't have it have causing side effects like HCG.

So, it's easier just a small dose of HCG and see what dose works better for you, but it can be a complicating factor.

Gotcha.

PJ Bacalla asks, when is your clinic going to be up?

In

Minnesota?

Oh, shit.

Yeah, that's MN.

Like, I do.

You know what?

I'm trying to think if I have paperwork in for Minnesota yet.

Like, I have a lot of states we're working on, and it's just, like, it's complex for a lot of states.

So, like, there's so much stuff you have to do.

I'm trying to think, I almost want to say that Minnesota is one of those, that we have the paperwork in.

And so we're just going through the process.

And in that case, I still don't have a timeline because some of them come right away and some of them still take months after you start applying for it.

But I think Minnesota is one of them.

So like, hopefully within the next six months, I mean, the ultimate goal is we'll have all 50 states, and that's what we're working on.

Yep.

Memphis Cut Shall asks, thoughts on the justice system and how they treated you?

Oh,

that

I'm going to, I got to think of how to keep this short because I studied this too.

So when I was in prison, I

like, again, it's about

in order to gain to gain

or is the battery dying?

It's my SD card.

I didn't think we were going to run for this.

Sorry.

No, you're

We just have one more question after this.

Okay.

Yeah, sure.

Okay.

So, yeah, that's a long one.

I'm trying to keep it quick.

When I was in prison, one of the, you know, again, one of the things that you do is to try to be useful, to gain respect and admiration among the people in there, right?

The best way to do that is to be helpful to everybody around you.

So one of the things I did is, of course, in prison, there's a lot of people with legal problems.

So I just started studying the law and I helped hundreds of people write motions, habeas corpus protections to the court.

And I really learned a lot.

Like I studied every day for almost four years and I really got good and adept with the law.

So I studied the justice system a lot.

And there's a lot of problems with the justice system.

Again, the not incentivizing people to not fixing the problem,

the reason people go to prison.

People go to prison because they don't know what else to do.

I mean, that's true for most of the prison population.

There are some really bad people in prison who need to be in prison.

I think one of the problems is, and I think California has dealt with this, and New York has dealt with this, is that one of

the

governance, the way that they deal with it is just to is just to not put people in prison, right?

Like they just stopped prosecuting for certain crimes.

And again, some people need to go to prison.

And that's not the way to do it.

The way to do it is to, I mean, it's multifaceted.

There's not just one reason so many people go to prison, so many people go to prison unfairly, and their prisons are so full of people who don't need to be in prison.

It's multifaceted.

It's not just one thing.

If it was one thing, we could just fix that problem.

But it's just a whole

coalescing of a myriad of factors that come together and create this big problem.

A lot of it has to do with the legal system,

the way prosecutors just try to bury everybody.

I mean, if you read my case or if you read anybody who goes to prison, the media only gets the prosecutor's point of view, what the prosecutor writes.

And the prosecutor just tries to bury you with everything they can and make you sound like the most evil person.

That's their job to rationalize why we spent so much money to send these people to prison, right?

So they just make you sound like the most evil person out there.

And it's just not true.

Again, while you're in prison, we're not trying to fix, no, there's not effective programs to fix the problem.

They should be education facilities so that people can learn something else to do.

Another thing,

nonviolent drug offenders should not be in prison.

We've learned that

prohibition of alcohol, any drugs just doesn't work.

It's education.

Taxes can also fund rehabs for people and education for people, like just the same way they've done with nicotine.

And I wrote some motions for them for you, did 22 years for marijuana.

It's just crazy to me, especially what we know now.

You know, we're just stigmatizing these drugs.

During the war on drugs, everything got so stigmatized.

And,

you know, drugs are bad, but the way to deal with them is not through

strict regulation.

It's education

and just education.

So you can have the prison population by not putting nonviolent drug offenders in prison.

The last one is Danny Bryan asks, benzyls and solvents in UGL gear and side effects over the years, pip infections, et cetera.

Yeah, so what was the question exactly?

About

benzyl and solvents in UGL gear and side effects over the years.

So I guess just whatever information.

So you typically use, man, I'm going to have a brain for it now.

A benzyl benzoate is a solvent, and benzo alcohol is there just to prevent bacterial growth.

Those two have proved, you know, fine.

I think think you start to get problems with some of the other solvents.

Guaiacol

is how we get like stan oil or the stanozole and injectable oil.

It doesn't dissolve, but it has to have a heavy solvent.

Guaiacol works, but it works really well, but it's like, I don't know, it's got this really potent odor.

So like when we used to make it,

you couldn't even go in the room for like days because it would just stink so bad.

And you can smell it to a degree when you inject it too.

Like your body's kind of smelling it fire yeah that's what i need so

as far as just benzobenzoate and benzol alcohol for just to prevent bacteria i think that's that's fine i don't think those have side effects i mean the thing is that you can't have these super dosed compounds with that which i don't think people need anyways like

i mean 400 milligram

so the the pip comes from

from um having something super saturated.

And then what happens when you inject it, it actually crystallizes out.

Like it separates from the benzo-benzoate, and then the product, the compound crystallizes out.

And then that, and then your body attacks that.

And then you get the typical flu-like symptoms, right?

You get pain at the injection site, redness, swelling.

And that's what Pip is, right?

So,

and PIP, some compounds are just going to do that.

Prope, prope at 100 milligrams even hurts.

Sustenant hurts a lot because it, again, things that don't dissolve that well in the solution are going to crystallize out and pip and cause pip

so i mean but pip like back in the old days in the old days like we used to love pip like we used to like we'd inject it would hurt and we would use it as a badge of honor be like oh yeah my ass really hurts that means it's real like because fake stuff doesn't hurt so if it didn't hurt we would we would get scared like oh my god we got something fake but um

i don't know But I think benzo benzoate is fine.

Some of the other compounds, and benzo alcohol is fine.

Some of the other compounds that are using could

be problematic.

EO is decent, but some people are allergic to it.

Ethyl oil

as a solvent.

I mean, it's a good solvent, but some people are allergic to it.

So you got to be careful with that.

Awesome.

Cool.

Well, I ask everyone one last question at the end of every podcast.

And this was really awesome because I'm glad that I got to hear your entire story and also your perspectives and how you felt through it.

Because I think that's one of the most powerful things.

It's like, some of these stories are fucking crazy, but like knowing that you're also a human too and you're experiencing these things, like

down to a level where you're discussing the dopamine that you're feeling to drive you forward in certain circumstances.

Those are hard to beat.

So I have this question I ask everybody.

And if you were to disappear from the world tomorrow and you had one message you could send to the entire world today, what would that message be?

That is a great question.

And I think, I mean, honestly, I think it would have to be, I've made my life about this.

Like, this is my legacy.

This is my life, like teaching people about this.

And I've seen it dramatically help the lives of 20,000 people encountered.

Like, I've collected that empirical data and seen it.

So I guess it would be, I would want people to know that, like, because, and I've also seen so many people living lives of despair.

And how many millions of people have lived and died lives of despair just because the medical community refuses to bone up on their understanding and research of hormones.

So I guess it would be, you don't have to live your life of despair.

There's ways to improve, dramatically improve your quality of life.

And

I would just like the education to move forward.

And what I have seen, what I've taught, I would love to,

I would just want it to move forward just so we can help.

Like I said,

just an estimation of mine, just from...

seeing a lot of things, but in the United States alone, there's probably 100 million people who

would

greatly benefit from hormones hormones who are just so stigmatized they don't use it.

And I would, and a billion people throughout the world, probably, if not more.

And I would like to help those billion people.

So I would hope that just the idea of what I've taught, what I've educated would live on and the legit, that legacy would live on so that people, you don't have to live a life of despair.

That's awesome, bro.

Thank you for coming on, man.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me.

This has been great.

You have one of the most insightful.

insightful podcasts.

You ask great questions and

your audience is great too.

Thank you, bro.

I appreciate that.

Where can everybody find you?

Oh, yeah.

So I have a, if you don't mind, I'll give you my YouTube and my YouTube channel, and you could paste it in the

description.

Description, yeah.

And then so I have a YouTube channel and then hormonesforme.com.

Yeah, we can help people with your hormone protocols and we can get people on HRT and TRT.

Yeah.

Awesome.

That was fucking sick, bro.

Yeah.

Thanks for taking on, man.

Thank you.

Yeah, everybody, if you'd like to support the podcast, rate us a five stars and Apple Podcasts Spotify anywhere you find a podcast.

And subscribe to the YouTube channel and click the bell button because it gets us amazing guests like

Marion today.

So I'm sure that he wouldn't have reached out to me if it wasn't for you guys giving me good ratings, like you said, liking and subscribing to the podcast and making this channel what it is today.

So love you all.

Thank you.

Peace.

All right.

Sick.

Thank you.