Mind Hunter ///John Douglas /// Part 2

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Welcome to True Crime Garage.

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Big things happening as this is our last show.

Big things are happening because we're quitting.

No, just joking.

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And

I hope everybody made it through 2020.

And that is enough of the business.

All right, everybody, gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer.

Let's talk some true crime.

We are continuing our discussion with John Douglas, retired FBI special agent John Douglas.

You know him from the behavioral science unit.

You may know him from the wonderful show Mind Hunter.

Picking up where we left off, we were discussing one of my favorite books, Law and Disorder, and in particular, the West Memphis III case.

Mr.

Douglas, when you met Mark Byers, there was a dramatic contrast to your meeting with Terry Hobbs.

At first, Mark Byers was off-put and not very welcoming to your conversation, but he very quickly warmed up to you and then became very much an open book.

Whereas Terry Hobbs put on the facade of being welcoming and interested in talking to you.

However, as the conversation went along, he became aggressive and became dodgy to your questions.

He wanted, yeah, he very much.

Word got out that

he wanted to uh have somebody uh get rid of me uh and uh like contract to have me

killed uh but buyers you're exactly right I when I s sat on that porch of his, so hot as heck down there, sweating, and and he got angry as hell, and his wife was there.

And

initially, that guy started talking.

I was on the porch like an hour or so, and then finally I I g was invited into the house and I spent hours on hours, you know you know with him and just assessing him and I mean I mean

he's not the most

stable person

at that certainly but he's he he didn't kill he didn't kill his you know his his child

a different feel too that I have when I spoke when I spoke to Terry Hobbes and

I initially spoke with him at a shopping center, trying to get gain his trust.

And then when I started to to gain information on him, and he got really pissed off at me, when I we were able to track down

years earlier how he broke into a house, a neighbor's house,

and as she was taking a shower, and he tried to molest her, try to molest this woman.

He thought that record was purged and it wasn't available.

And so he had that.

He also shot his brother his brother-in-law.

And he was also extremely violent to his children, his son and his young son and daughter, and to his you know, to his uh his wife.

Uh his his wife is a believer that uh that he is responsible for that crime.

But no one's gonna really you know, you know, do it.

No one's really working it.

Uh as far as they're concerned, it's solved.

And they don't have to pay they don't have to pay any money uh to uh

you know, to uh Damon Eccles and Jesse and Jason Baldwin, uh, any state money uh because they had the pled the Al Alfred plea.

Uh And

so to this day they're sex offenders, these three.

I did a presentation with Amanda Knox and Jesse, Miss Kelly,

about a year and a half ago up in New York.

And you could see, we just, I took a chunk out of their lives.

It's like

they're behind developmentally, emotionally, because of the time that they spent, a period of time in their lives

in in prison, particularly

Damien.

And it was the same too with Amanda.

It's the same thing.

Speaking of interviewing parents of victims and also parents that may be considered suspects, you were directly involved in the still unsolved homicide of six-year-old John Benet Ramsey.

For those who are yet to read the cases that haunt us, can you explain how you became involved in the case?

Yeah, I was in, I happened to be in Utah at the time speaking at a university when I got a call from an investigator who's working on the defense team.

I didn't know who he was and

asked me that if I would like to participate in in the investigation.

And

I told a colleague of mine who used to work for me in the unit.

I accepted it and I said this family is guilty.

In the back of my mind, I'm thinking that they're you know they're guilty because what I was reading in the papers, what was being presented on television.

So I go over and I meet the the attorneys in Denver and an old mansion they have as

an office and inside of what would be the living room there's a is an enclosed encasement of a It's like a fiberglass room within the room and go in there.

So I'm thinking in the back of my mind What are these guys going to do?

They're going to like offer me money or something?

Are they going to pay me?

I'm going to

give them a rash of crap man and walk right out on them.

But I I got in there and I sat down and they said, John, we don't know.

We really don't know.

We don't know.

He said, we don't think they did it.

But

we'd like you to take a look at what we have.

Can we present to you what we have?

And I said, yeah.

He says, but you know,

and they are going to pay me.

They're going to pay me.

But the pay, people think I became a millionaire, $1,500.

I spent a lot of time.

I testified out there and everything.

Because once I realized I was not working for, I was working for victims, wasn't working for offenders.

I was working for victims of a violent crime who had been, who are now in the process of being re-victimized

by being accused of killing their child.

But once I saw

how she was murdered and the things that was done to her, that wasn't all

made public.

and

parents kill.

Believe me, we have had plenty of cases, parents kill, but not like this, not like this, not

with this family,

this type of family either.

They don't kill like this.

So I did the analysis.

I met with

the family.

And

first thing I did, I went to the house and kind of reenacted, reconstructed things to see where

their bedroom was.

Their bedroom was up like in an attic that was made into a master bedroom.

And the children are on the next floor down.

And you can't hear anything with the air conditioning, heating units going.

You really can't hear anything if anyone was down below you there.

But I looked at the when I look at a case like that, okay,

you're looking at then I'm looking at pre-offense behavior, post-offense behavior, what's going on in their lives.

And I didn't see anything in pre-offense behavior that

was out of the ordinary or unusual.

It's Christmastime.

They're going to Charlotte, Michigan for the holidays.

And I think they're going to work their way down to Disney, Disney World.

And I don't see anything there.

Now we perpetrate the crime.

Okay, the crime has been perpetrated.

Let's take a look at that.

And then I saw where

the investigators asked John and a neighbor, Fleet Wood, to take a look around, see if anything's out of the ordinary.

Take a look downstairs in this basement.

So they go down there.

Usually when a parent kills, what we found over the years that

the parent who did the killing, it won't be the one to find the body.

He'll get somebody else, the person with them.

Or if it's searching in the yard or something

or a search party,

they are not going to be the one to find the child.

In this situation here, Fleet White goes down.

John goes into this room.

checks it's a it's a wine cellar but there's no wine they don't even drink and there he finds uh uh his daughter.

Oh my God, my baby, he shouts out.

And she has tape over her mouth.

Her hands are over her head,

tied together.

He doesn't know it yet, but she is garotted.

And

he then picks her up, carries her upstairs, lays her down in the eventually in the, I guess it's in the living room.

Bunch of people are up there.

Everything's contaminated.

And they're trying to bring her back to life, rubbing her body that's in rigor

and

there's a little bruise on her on her forehead so she has a bruise on her forehead she should she has been garotted they can't even see the garot she's been garotted

and a piece of the the paintbrush is used to to for the as a handle to garrot her with a rope

that and this nylon rope that they never found where this rope was that Ramsey didn't have it.

They didn't find any other pieces of it.

They They find wood

fibers from

the same paintbrush in their

vaginal area, which was been penetrated with

believe now with that stick.

That's how that

got there.

When they they start the autopsy and they remove her

the skull or the the skin on the skull,

surprisingly they find that the skull has been cracked open open like

a coconut, like eight, eight and a half inches in length.

But why is there just a little red, slight red mark on her forehead?

And my gosh, to break your skull, you'd think there'd be some kind of edema, there'd be swelling and blood.

And well,

why is because

she was dead or on her last breath when when the person responsible wasn't satisfied enough with

the death itself.

So he does her in.

It wasn't necessary for the kill.

She was already dead from the garage.

And then the letter, the other thing, the letter, right, the famous two and a half page letter.

And the FBI was against me.

Police hated me around the country.

And

never saw a two and a half page letter.

And that's right.

They're right about that.

However,

when would the letter have been written is the question.

You mean to tell me that after

tell me the Ramseys have been murdered, now you're going to write a two and a half page letter,

this threatening letter asking for money, and the money coincides roughly to what a bonus that John Ramsey have.

But you're going to be pulling in into this letter different different verses that are coming right out of movies,

out of movies like ransom.

And

you're going to have the presence of mind

to do something like that

after the crime?

No.

No, you're not.

You're not going to have that kind of presence of mind.

So I just saw so many

different things.

And the Bureau, if they were angry,

like I may be,

like when I saw Alex Hunter, talking before the public, we know you're out there.

We know there's going to be more than one of you.

I knew that he was coached by, without anyone telling me, I mean, I invented the stuff

that he was being told by the agents of what to say.

But

I'm not telling

the defense what they're doing here,

what their tactics are.

I'm not doing it.

I would have loved to have been

able to solve that case.

If it was them, just come up and get a confession out of them.

But

that was not the case.

And

there was a broken man.

I I've met John several times

and

a a broken a broken man.

Patsy Ramsey's

stage, she was in remissions, cancer returned, she died.

Everyone was waiting for a dying declaration.

There was no dying declaration.

She didn't kill her kill her daughter.

John has since remarried.

CBS comes out with a a T V show with the s F so-called FBI, some uh former agents, exper

experts,

close and

forensic experts, and

they come up with this theory,

more than a theory, but an accusation that that that Burke Ramsey is responsible for the

death.

I mean,

I was watching that and I'm thinking, holy miracle, you can't say something like that.

I mean, here Burke is, you know, he's I'm not going to say where he lives, but I've come across him over the

years.

I mean,

he did not

hit his sister accidentally or whatever, or

on purpose.

In fact, if the parents knew that, they never would have allowed him to talk to the police alone without even the parents the parents in the presence of Burke.

So it's another one of these cases where, you know, they they what they did, what they did, Nick, is they, and you see this sometimes on cases,

they let a theory drive an investigation, and they let certain evidence that supports the theory in, and they disallow some evidence that doesn't fit the theory out.

You know, so they're letting that theory, you know, drive it, not being driven by evidence of any kind or forensic or

evidence or whatever, eyewitness testimony.

You know, they're letting a theory.

And you know why?

Because too, because you had it.

You didn't have a homicide investigator work in that case.

You had a drug investigator work in that.

A narcotics officer work in that case.

And because they have so few cases, they rotate them out there in Boulder.

And so the mindset of a narcotics officer is different than a homicide officer.

A narcotics officer knows,

knows you're dealing, knows it's you.

I know it's you.

I'm going to make a case on you.

I'm going to make it on you.

I'm going to build a case all around you.

Informants, whatever, we're going to get you.

Well, you get that mindset in the homicide case.

I know you did it.

I know the certain behavior.

Patsy, when they brought the child up, Patsy was there, her fingers were splayed across her face, peeking through her eyes and all that other

nonsense stuff.

No,

you let a theory drive your investigation.

You're into a narcotics investigation mindset, not a homicide investigator.

And that's why, who's the investigator from Colorado Springs, Lou Smith?

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

As soon as you are brought in to take a look at the case, and as soon as the famous homicide detective, the late, great Lou Smith, is brought in to take a look at the case, the two of you separately come up with very similar conclusions.

It's the famous Lou Smith intruder theory.

When I testified with the grand jury, and then

he testified, I guess, before I did something, a different day and I testified

afterwards they said that Lou Smith wanted to speak with me and over in Colorado Springs great guy really great guy and so

they drove me over there and and I knock on his door and he comes to the door

and he said and introduce ourselves he said John I said I don't know I don't know how you did it

It took me 10 months, 10 months.

You came up with this in four days, four or five days, whatever it was.

And he said, and you didn't see everything.

And I've got everything.

I've got everything here.

I'd like to go through the case or a PowerPoint presentation and with you.

I said, I'd be great.

So I went down in his basement.

He went through the whole case.

And then seeing even everything, but things I didn't see,

I just

certainly had to make assumptions.

Everything just fit.

And

then they were coming out that, you know, that

Lou and myself,

the family was religious that we were that we were being pulled into the Ramseys because of

our faith because of faith and no

we've both of us have been and investigators of all types

will will arrest religious people we don't don't don't you don't care but but if we don't like you know wrongful convic convictions and and destroying the lives of you know of of people.

I mean, it's terrible to lose your child, but now to be accused of

killing your child.

And that's when you get into Nick, like social media, where it can be dangerous.

A lot of social media can be good where you can develop help and actually can help law enforcement with leads and people discussion.

And there's been some websites that have been very, very successful.

But then you've got others, you know, which can totally could jeopardize

investigation and shape the attitude of of people.

I remember right after that too, I'm on a train going up to New York and

there's a guy in front of me.

And this is after I did an

analysis.

I'm back and and and on the night of the crime, it was like the head of the night of the crime, Patsy was with with was with out with her lover.

And I'm thinking, what the hell?

So I when I get to New York, I call, I said, I was did was Patsy having an affair with some guy?

You're not telling me?

What are you talking about?

And I said, this guy, it's one of these rag tabloid things.

I saw this on a train.

No, it's garbage.

It's garbage.

But you can see how people see that kind of crap, you know, and

start believing, you know, start believing in it.

And

you can't sway

their opinion at all.

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Do you think we will ever know who killed Jean Bonet?

I hope so.

I mean, I don't know.

You hear different things of a...

You know, if they brought in...

They've had some good suspects.

They had one good suspect there.

They had several.

I mean,

the the place was full of sex offenders all around the areas where Patsy and John were living there.

But then there was one guy who

committed suicide.

He had access to a stun gun.

See, the police discount that.

Lou Smith went over the stun gun and showed me.

They did test with a a medical doctor on pigs,

using a stun gun showing the marks of similarities similarities here.

I mean, hopefully, you know, DNA, familial DNA or something will,

you know, will solve that uh that case one day.

But I don't know if they're they're working.

And I hear once in a while you hear like a new attorney general come in, we're going to take a new look at the case, or the the uh uh a prosecutor

wants to take a look at the case.

But, you know, hopefully, I mean, uh it can uh, look at the Golden State case.

I mean, after all these years, I mean, we worked that case uh the unit I just worked the I worked when it was the East Area rapist, the rapes that that he was he was doing.

And

we didn't

it wasn't responsible, it was just DNA.

DNA got him, which was after so many years.

And a police officer

was responsible.

We're all very excited for the release of your new book, The Killer's Shadow, The FBI's Hunt for a White Supremist Serial Killer.

Can you tell us a little bit about your latest book?

This This is

a different kind of serial killer and it was a case that

the first case that the Bureau would give me only because they've

of a supervisor on the Civil Rights Division

squad up at headquarters.

We knew each other from the Milwaukee division.

We're on the same SWAT team together.

And

he knew I was doing this research on serial murders and going into prisons and he calls me to see if I could

be of help.

So this would be different, Nick.

This would not be a profile so much as it would would be an assessment

guy.

Like so you got to kind of do your old show w years ago it was called This Is Your Life, you know, and uh and they would do this background of uh a total background of a guy.

So I would go up to uh headquarters and uh

yeah, it would and uh there was a lot of pressure because if I screw this thing up, I'm just starting to get going here.

And not everyone is supportive within the organization of me doing any of this this research.

Uh uh they they just don't understand you know what the purpose of it is, even though we're helping local police and the later international police departments here.

So the assessment is that the the the latest thing with Franklin is is that he's linked to over twenty homicides.

He traveled, he's a he's prolific bank robber.

He unlike serial killers that have a particular comfort zone for the crimes, this guy is all over the place.

He's all over the map.

He's a bomber.

Some of his cases are bombing.

He is a

bank robber, prolific bank robber.

He is a, it turns out to be an excellent shot with a rifle.

In fact, he excellent shot with only one eye because when he, as a youth, he lost the sight of eyes in his right eye in an accident.

People think it's said it was a bicycle.

No, it wasn't a bicycle accident.

It was a shade, an old window shade with a spring inside.

He was playing with his brother.

The spring came out and popped him right in the eye.

Mother took him to the hospital, a mother who was extremely abusive to him, a father, extremely, again, very, very abusive to him and his brothers and sisters.

Mother takes him to the hospital.

The doctor says, we can't do anything right now.

It's temporary, but bring him back in a couple of months.

We'll do some surgery and we'll make his eye good as new.

She doesn't do that.

She doesn't take him back as a young child to the hospital.

He ends up losing his sight.

And he then, what a way to overcompensate the loss of his sight is to be an excellent shot.

He wanted to be a police officer too.

Another one.

He said, oh, another guy wants to be an officer.

And

when he heard through a neighbor who was a police officer that he couldn't join because of the loss of one eye,

he extremely angry and bitter, again,

towards his mother, hated.

Hated his mother and his father.

That's why

he would change his name to Joseph.

His name was James Vaughan.

He would change his name to Joseph

Paul Franklin.

And then

he then was gravitated to these

KKK,

different

radical hate groups,

American Nazi Party passing out literature.

Today he would have a field day with the internet

access.

But then what he realized was, because he was paranoid, that uh these organizations were pretty much uh uh infiltrated by FBI, by FBI informants, and they were keeping good tabs on them, uh on these these organizations back there back then, and they were primarily, you know, talking the talk, but not walking the walk.

And he got became frustrated uh and and uh decided to go out on his own.

and and the so-called birth of the the lone wolf, lone wolf uh criminal.

And it it just started by tailing interracial couples.

First one was up in Maryland.

He maced them.

But then that was after the macing them,

that was the last time he used mace.

From then on in,

he would start using

various firearms.

He shot Larry Flint

of Flint Hustle Magazine.

He shot him.

He shot Vernon Jordan, civil rights leader.

At the time, he wrote a threatening letter to

Jimmy Carter.

Secret Service was,

when he wasn't identified yet,

was trying to figure out who'd done it.

So what I said was with him, the long and short of it is I came up with an assessment that predicted where he would go in the in the country.

And that would be now, now that he's a fugitive, he's a top ten.

Yeah, he committed these crimes all around these other areas, but he's going to

be a homing pigeon now.

He's going back to Mobile.

He's going back to Mobile and to Florida.

He may not be robbing banks because we'll have a lot of these banks be notified, staked out.

But

the teletype, then it was Teletypes, was an Internet.

Teletype goes out.

He's spotted in Mobile, Alabama.

The agent in charge of the office calls me and wants to know the name of the bank or savings a loan.

Do I think this guy is going to be robbing?

I said, what?

I said, what do you, I can't, I don't know.

You didn't even know what city he was in.

I told you what city he's in.

So he was there temporarily.

They spotted him, surveillance camera in a blood bank, and then they

passed out flyers on him to all these different blood banks in this deep south out in Florida.

And that's where

he would be spotted in a blood bank.

So

got him there.

I coached the

agent on the interview a little bit.

But then I got to interview him

later on in the late 80s, 90, 90-ish,

with a Secret Service agent.

You would have thought, Nick, that Secret Service would have had a behavioral science unit over the years.

They did not have a unit like we had.

They had not done research like we were doing with violent crimes at all.

And so I did a couple of cases for Secret Service Service over the years.

In fact, it turned out pretty good.

And so then they sent down a guy, a great guy, he's passed away, Ken Baker, Secret Service,

and we conducted some research on assassins, interviewed like Squeaky Fromm, who shot Ford, Sarah Jade Moore, who shot Ford, Arthur Bremer, who shot George Wallace, James Earl Ray, who shot Dr.

Martin Luther King, and other assassination style of killings.

And that's why we interviewed Franklin because he had that assassination style of killing.

And the problem is

that

and we come up with this killer's shadow, is that to this day he still casts a shadow, a long shadow, because there are others like him out there.

Now he's been executed 2013,

but

there are others who that the law enforcement come across now and then who are emulating people

like him,

who are being influenced today,

not so much like the old days where it would be in

some

hallroom or meeting or someone's basement.

Now it's on the internet where you can have,

and there's hundreds and hundreds of sites, these racist sites, anti-Semitic sites, where someone can gravitate to that.

And not everyone will go out and perpetrate acts of violence,

but someone may, and someone will

see that and take action like

this

Joseph Paul Franklin

character.

And so it's much, it's difficult today to investigate them.

In the old days, you had an organization.

Now

you have someone who could be influencing others, but

they're not tied into.

There's no hierarchy.

There's no leader and soldiers.

None of that.

Lieutenants, like an organized crime, even.

You don't have anything like that.

So it makes it extremely difficult for law enforcement.

And law enforcement resources are very skimpy, particularly after 9-11.

The emphasis was

on international terrorism.

A little bit de-emphasis on

resources on

domestic terrorism.

So

it's not over.

There'll be other cases, unfortunately.

You know,

h hopefully we can what we ha we can rely on is is information from the public when they see someone who's becoming obsessed with with hatred and anti-Semitic, uh anti-everything, or r a

African Americans and is becoming uh uh obsessed with weapons.

and and other maybe weapons of destruction.

Uh

law enforcement can't be everywhere at every time, so they rely on public information from anonymous sources.

That's what they need to follow up the leads to see if this person, you know, if they can if it will carry out a you know this

you know a violent act.

It's kind of like a school shooter.

I mean you have certain indicators, but you you can't always predict for 100%.

You can interact interest or intercede and

take some action family or

and give this person counseling or whatever.

But it's very, very difficult,

very, very difficult for law enforcement.

So that's what they'll see in this book.

They'll see the evolution of him,

and kind of like

the

Sonny Bono and Cher, the beat goes on and the beat goes on.

There'll be more, unfortunately, there'll be more probably cases like this in the future.

Mr.

Douglas, thank you again for your time today and for doing the interview.

You've been more than generous with us here in the garage.

Thanks for having me again.

And we're working on another one for next year.

Next year, we'll be doing one.

They want us to do like kind of like an Ann Rule thing, like one case.

Sometimes it'll be a case that I've worked or maybe a case to take a look at, you know, a new case,

investigate.

try to come up with a solution.

So have me back.

Yes, sir.

As soon as you're done with this next book, we'd love to have you back.

Thank you so much.

I enjoyed it.

Keep up the good work.

Thank you, Mr.

Douglas, for joining us in the garage.

Thank you so much for joining us here in the garage.

Letting us be a part of your week.

Letting us be a part of your holidays.

Colonel, do we have any recommended reading this week?

We have a lot to recommend today.

First off, the True Crime Garage.

Every single episode archive is available for your listening pleasure when you download the free Stitcher listening app on your device.

That's right.

Over 440 episodes to listen to for free, including the last time Mr.

John Douglas was on the show back in May of 2019 in the John Douglas Mind Hunter episode number 302.

Also, we will be recommending a batch of John Douglas' books.

We recommended The Killer's Shadow last week, and you heard us reference in our discussion this week some of his other great books, including The Cases That Haunt Us, Law and Disorder, and The Killer Across the Table.

We will have all of those great titles listed on our recommended page at truecrimegarage.com.

Here's us wishing all of you and yours a very safe and happy Thanksgiving.

Be good, be thankful, and please don't live.

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