Mind Hunter /// John Douglas /// Part 1

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Let's talk some true crime.

John Douglas started his career with the FBI in 1970.

In the field, he served as a hostage negotiator.

He transferred to the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, or BSU for short, in 1977, where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal psychology at the FBI Academy in Quantico.

Douglas later went on to create and manage the FBI's criminal profiling program.

While traveling around the country, providing instruction to law enforcement agencies, Douglas began interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons.

He interviewed some of the most notable violent criminals as part of the study, including David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, and Edmund Kemper.

He used the information gathered from these interviews, he examined crime scenes and created profiles of the perpetrators, describing their habits and attempting to predict their next move.

In cases where his work helped to capture the criminals, he built strategies for interrogating and prosecuting them as well.

Douglas first made a public name for himself with the involvement in the Atlanta child murders.

Douglas first made a public name for himself with his involvement in the Atlanta child murders case back in 1977 to 1981.

He is the author of two of the garage's favorite true crime books, Mind Hunter and the Cases That Haunt Us.

And he's joining us here in the garage today via telephone.

And Mr.

Douglas, it is an honor to have you joining us once again.

Well, thank you.

First off, Mr.

Douglas, everybody wants to know: will there be season three of Mindhunter?

You certainly have the inside track.

What can you tell us?

Will it happen and when?

I'll tell you,

now it's like two months ago.

I got a call from Holt McCallany, who plays Bill Tench character.

He stayed with me

when he was developing his part in the show.

But

it sounded kind of grim and and was that all the actors wanted to return.

But it was a question with

David Fincher, the director.

He spent so much time, so much time filming in Pittsburgh for each each season.

He spent about seven months there, and he's such a perfectionist that the actors are are working almost the entire year on the you know, on each uh on e each series.

What they were saying that he that he's uh you know exhausted.

I just don't personally understand it, neither the uh some s uh some of the actors.

Uh uh why don't you get you some other directors?

Uh some

there were other directors involved in in season one and season two.

Of the nineteen total episodes in two seasons, Fincher did did seven of them, personally did seven.

But when he did the series House of Cards, he started it, but then other other directors took over uh over for the uh for the show.

So I don't I mean, it's just,

everyone's, you know, it's hoping

it got tremendous ratings.

The reviews were were all

good.

But I mean, it doesn't, for now, it's not.

He takes, you know, if you can recall season two, the first episode, I'll just give you an idea.

There was a barbecue scene with Bill Tench, and he's meeting his neighbors who are finding out for the first time kind of what he does with the profiling and at Quantico and all that.

And he started asking questions.

That one scene was repeated nearly 75 times, 75 times before Fincher approved it, how he wanted that scene to go.

And it's because

he's made the Netflix a lot of money.

If it was anyone else they say, they would say, okay, it's fine.

We'll get another director.

But no,

they're not doing it.

But I just, in the back of my mind, I just think they will at some point.

Yeah.

I mean, I may be dead and buried, but at some point I hope they'll bring it back.

There's so much more to tell.

I mean even season two, the Atlanta child killings, I mean that

and and and you're

you know you're

the people listening to your show have to realize that's based on the book, but it's not the book.

The like the Atlanta case did not go down like that.

In fact, in reality, I thought it went down in in a real way, it went down a lot more dramatic.

And my role in that case, as far as coaching the prosecution on how to interrogate him when he would take the stand, my attitude toward

the prosecutors and experts that the FBI and the state brought in there and how they were going to throw my ass out of there.

They did, because I was just so critical of them.

on how they testified.

They were so technical, no one could even understand what they were saying.

I mean, I couldn't understand what they were saying.

And the defense experts that they brought in

talk, they may have been saying stuff that's not correct, their analysis, but it was clear it was something that the jurors could follow.

And they were nodding their heads like in agreement

with their experts.

So

there's so much...

You know, so they didn't finish that case.

I was thinking of season three.

They got that case.

I mean, they got, they have, I think there's so many different cases.

The Ted Bundy case, they could do Robert Hansen up in Alaska who hunted women down

like wild animals, which set them loose in the wilderness.

And

you have that case.

You have Buffalo 22 caliber killer.

I mean, it's just the Tylenol case.

Then cases of smaller, no one really the public doesn't even know about, but just very, very

interesting

cases.

And it may not follow the book.

They're kind of interpreting it the way they want to, but

it's better than some of the other shows that

that I've seen.

Even like with Criminal Minds, it's was a very successful show.

But but behavioral science unit, we don't when you you're in that unit, you don't go you're not out making arrests, you're not taking cases away from police, you're not kicking down doors.

You know, it's cerebral when you reach when you reach the the unit.

And you're a coach.

You're coaching

FBI, you're coaching local law enforcement on

how to

investigate or

lead them

in the best direction for, say, an unknown subject case.

So

what they portrayed in Mindhunter series was good.

Hopefully

it's a five-year, it was a five-year arc to the show.

It's supposed to be on for five years.

And then there's plenty of cases to fill up those five years.

So we will see.

Yes, when asked to give a brief description about Mindhunter, when I recommend the show to friends and family, I always say it's the more adult, more intelligent, real life version of Criminal Minds.

Yeah, I mean, it's just it's such interest in

that kind of show today, in these crime conferences around the country, it's just it's it's amazing.

When I haven't done any public speaking because of the COVID virus, but when I've been going out to conferences, 80-90% of the audience are women too, that are really

into this.

Well, they want to know, because

they're the victims of

the kind of violent crimes that I and my colleagues have worked over the years.

And they're interested in to better understand the personality.

What creates these people?

What makes these people

different than we are?

What was their backgrounds?

Was it predictable that they would commit

these

types of crimes?

And

now with all these dating services,

meeting people

at locations, you don't know.

Just because someone puts a nice picture up and gives you this background this little bio doesn't mean that's who the person really is.

My mother,

since passed away, she used to tell my sister,

when you meet a man or boy, this was years ago, when you meet a boy, ask about what his relationship is with his mother.

And my mother was right on the money there because of the people who I've interviewed, some of the most violent offenders, there was always an issue on the mother's side where there was this abuse or neglect of

some type

going on with them.

They loved their mother and St.

Santa hated their mother.

When I interviewed Gary Hydnicks in Philadelphia, who kept women in the pit, like in the movie Silence of the Lambs, I interviewed him.

Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes, just got to 60 Minutes, that's how long ago it was, in 1991, and followed me into Pittsburgh to interview, where I interviewed Gary Heidnick.

And when I got around to talking about his mother, he just went absolutely nuts, you know, and crying and,

you know, and

he loved her and hated her all at the same time.

And she was very, very abusive, you know, toward him.

And this is not to say, that everyone is abused, which turned out to be a violent, you know, anything, but I'm just saying of of the people who I've interviewed,

rarely, I can't think of one that you could say came from some loving, nurturing kind of background.

They all have some type of

dysfunction in their lives.

Let's talk about the still unsolved, terrorizing murders and threats from the unidentified serial killer who called himself the Zodiac.

You reviewed and profiled the Zodiac case years after the fact and still were able to offer up some very fascinating and intriguing analysis about the crimes and the person who committed them.

Yeah,

well, with the Zodiac, we never think the unit really never got involved with the

analysis of that case.

We've had a lot of people come forward over the years.

There's been different suspects

developed.

When that case was going on, we really didn't even have a behavioral science unit.

When we finally got the case,

it was when so-called Zodiac was writing a communication, wrote a communication to the detective who was assigned to the case.

He had a private office, a private line, a hotline.

And so we got

we were going to do an analysis of the communication, we call it psycholinguistic analysis.

All it is is just you're doing a profile of the author of the communication.

Police immediately called us up and said, stop, forget about it.

Why?

Why?

We We figure out who wrote the communication.

Who was it?

The detective.

Wow.

The detective wrote the communication himself to, he's trying to, because he had not had any good leads, no leads.

Everything just died.

There was nothing going on.

And to perpetuate the case, he wrote this so-called letter from

the zodiac.

But as far as, I mean, it's a case,

if it was a case today,

I think we'd be successful

when you get a case like that

and how I was evolving in when I was the unit chief in the bureau and training others it's I was kind of de-emphasizing the profile because of course the whole the idea of a profile is you're trying to generate leads you're trying to try to

pique the mind of interest of people who may know

some of the the characteristics of

that are fitting this character the uh the person responsible for the crime so I began to focus in more on on proactive techniques uh and uh

to to to maybe get the subject uh to inject himself in the investigation or get the subject to to go to a particular location uh because we we may have uh planted something there, we may have had a memorial service there, uh

and uh

just give you an example.

I was sent to go before the

internal affairs, they call it OPR Office of Professional Responsibility,

which is not good when you go before internal affairs.

And so I went before a whole group and they said, John, you're not lying, are you, to

the media, through the media, to the public?

You're not lying, are you?

I said, what do you mean?

Are you telling the truth?

I said, well, I don't know.

I said, let me give you an example.

I said,

and I told him, there's a case in San Diego that a woman's car was broken down off the side of the road.

She ran out of gasoline.

No one knows where she is for a day or two.

Then they find her up

outside of San Diego in some foothills.

And she has a dog collar around her neck.

She's been sexually assaulted and she's been garotted.

I worked with the police.

I'm telling the internal affairs this, I worked with the police, we came out with a series of articles.

I said because it was my opinion that

whoever killed her was the guy who picked her up to take her maybe to a gas station, gas station, so she thought.

And so

we want to put a series of communications out looking for lead value.

Did anyone see anything?

Did anyone see anything, any vehicle stop, any description of a vehicle or a car?

We put that out.

We fled the airways

and we waited a couple of days, and now we come out with another.

We're getting very good leads, thanking the public.

We are now getting a description of not only the vehicle, but the individual

who stopped alongside of the victim's car.

The purpose of that was to get the subject to inject himself into the investigation to

come up with a legitimate reason why he may have been spotted there.

And sure enough, the guy injects himself into the investigation that just so you know that I was there.

I offered her a ride.

She said she ran out of gas, but she said no, so I went on my merry way.

So I told Internal Affairs,

that was the guy.

We arrested him, or the police arrested him.

Now, if you're telling me, you're telling me, am I lying to the press or whatever?

Well, it's not exactly the truth.

It's not the truth.

But we caught this.

So they, the police caught it by using this technique.

And so, they look at me and

they say, well,

it will just tell you something.

We understand what you're saying, but

if it ever gets out or anything, or you screw up, man, we're going to have your head.

We're going to have your head.

I'll be working cattle wrestling cases in Butte, Montana, or someplace.

If not fired from the Bureau, so I started really working on

proactive kinds of things and

interview

techniques and suggestions.

Because sometimes you may do a profile and it doesn't fit every characteristic.

So someone will say, well,

that profile,

they said he would have

a college education

and this guy only, he's a high school.

high school education.

Well, we may miss the age, which is difficult.

Age is difficult.

Because there's chronological age and behavioral age.

And

you

may miss that.

We missed the Arthur Shawcross case up in Rochester, New York.

We missed it by about 15 years.

And the reason we missed it was because he was incarcerated for those 15 years for a double homicide where he killed two children.

And then he gets out of prison.

It's unbelievable.

They let him out of prison after serving 15 years.

And he goes up to Rochester and he starts killing prostitutes up in Rochester.

So we got everything right.

Missed the age,

but we staked out, we told them to stake out, if you find a body, don't recover it right away, but stake it out.

And so the cops,

they get a lead.

There's a body below a bridge, an overpass, below a bridge in the country,

and

there's a victim down there, and it's frozen over with ice.

And they stake it out.

Guess what?

Police are surveilling it.

Here comes a guy, just just sits on the edge of the bridge, eating, having a drink, and the victim is right below him, and that was Arthur Shawcross, serial killer in Rochester, New York.

So

I like the idea of developing, you know,

using your imagination and creativity to catch these guys and kind of de-emphasize, like I said, de-emphasize

the profile.

Sometimes you can be right on the money.

Some cases, you can forget

you can't do it because too many maybe too many types of people could perpetrate this kind of type of crime.

And rape cases, we have surviving victims.

We could be pretty good

once if we do the right kind of interview or

we coach a police to determine what was the verbal assault was, what the sexual assault was, and what the physical assault was, verbal, sexual, physical.

And what was it like throughout the first counter with the victim during this sexual assault and afterwards?

Verbal, sexual, physical.

And if we have that information, we do a good interview.

That kind of case, we can do a very good profile and come up with, because we have a rape type.

We have

about five or six rape typologies based upon if we have that kind of information where we can determine pretty good who the offender is.

In a similar fashion, in regards to the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa, This is the murder of Cecilia Shepard and the attempted murder of Brian Hartnell.

During the course of tying up the victims, the Zodiac killer wearing a black executioner's type hood with clip-on sunglasses over the eye holes disguise He claimed to be an escaped convict from the Montana State Prison in Deer Lodge, Montana, where he had killed a guard and stole a car to make a getaway.

Now he's telling the the young couple he just needed their vehicle and money to drive and escape to Mexico.

You had said you would have used that information to try to draw the killer out to present himself to law enforcement and come forward.

What would have been your strategy to do so?

It would have just been to

release.

I just believe in working with the media, investigative reporters with the media, releasing information and not sitting on it.

You can sit on information for a period of a couple of, you know, maybe a couple of days or so, but at some point you have to

release the information.

Now whether or not that information was true or not,

we wouldn't have

known that.

Again,

I'd have to, it's been so long since I even looked at that, you know, that case.

But let me tell you something else that's similar.

What he did, his technique, he was trying to diffuse the situation.

He was trying to calm the victims down.

Don't worry, all I want is your vehicle.

Same thing.

I interviewed Dennis Rada, the BTK strangler, in a case that I did in the 70s and 80s, and

analysis never led to his arrest.

His stupidity led to his arrest.

But he used that same

technique with the Otero family when he killed the Oterros and

the children, the mother and father.

That please, all I want, you know, I just want your car

and your money.

I'm not going to do anything to you.

And so they allowed

it was a very good modus operandi.

It allowed him to diffuse the situation and

gain control of them and

tie them up.

Going back to the Zodiac,

it kind of shows you, though, it's pretty sophisticated.

It's a pretty good MO

to use.

It almost sounds like,

it's been so long, it almost sounds like a law enforcement technique.

Dennis Rader was a pseudo-law enforcement.

He was a compliance officer in town.

He was studying criminal justice at Wichita State.

So

a lot of these serial killer types do have law enforcement backgrounds, like the Golden Gate killer

out there,

But even others who or you ask them what

would be your favorite profession, and generally it's law enforcement, is what they pick.

And some of them will active, or even actually work work as security guards.

So but

sometimes it's disturbing to

see how I can't think of the name.

You probably know this, Nick.

The case in Indiana of the two little girls that were on that bridge.

Yes, the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German from Delphi, Indiana.

I did a brief interview on, I think it was Good Morning America.

I had that other book out,

Killer Cross, and they threw out that case.

And they've never, I mean, you can sit on that information, but when they sit on had the audio tapes, the audio tapes, and

you know, it was like, I think what I would call it, some like, come with me, follow me, or something like come with me.

Yes, the perpetrator said, guys down the hill yeah it's it's and they sound authoritarian man i mean you know

and they sat on that god wasn't it like two years or so it was it was ridiculous you don't you don't sit on on something like uh

you know like that uh you know for that period of time that case to me

that was a solvable kind of case that is not a

It's not a case where some stranger comes roaming into a community and just by the fluke, you know, and this, I think it was like a winter day,

he comes across this railroad trestle and he confronts these girls.

It's like he has

this knowledge, a knowledge of the area.

That's his comfort zone, that area there, whatever that area is like.

I just don't know.

I know it was just rural.

I don't know.

We don't know how they were killed.

If you knew how they were killed even,

like I said, you can sit on it for a while,

but

I think it would have been been very solvable.

If I would have known, like, were they sexually assaulted?

Yes or no?

Were they both sexually assaulted?

Were they redressed?

Were they on clothes?

Did he pose the bodies?

Did he try to secrete the bodies, hide the bodies

from open view?

Are they missing anything, any jewelry, any clothing, or anything like that?

Method of death.

Can we determine who was killed first?

It's really a solvable case, but

not a year later,

two years later.

I mean, unless they

luck out and get DNA.

But it's,

yeah,

I just, it upsets me sometimes when I see why didn't they release this information?

I mean, I do the same thing with the Bureau, too,

with our own cases.

You can sit on them for a while, but bits and pieces of information you can certainly let out to the public.

So, um, I was just parking my car, and then I saw you, a Gecko, huge fan.

I'm always honored to meet fans out in the wild.

The honor is mine.

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The app?

Yeah, sure.

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Could you sign it again?

Anything to help, I suppose.

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Mr.

Douglas, you referenced BTK Dennis Rader, and I was talking about the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa.

Do you think that there's a high probability, a good chance, that Dennis Rader learned that technique by reading about the Zodiac killer?

Yes.

Yeah, because like I said,

he was in criminal justice.

In fact, the initial analysis we did,

we did one in 79, and we were just getting going, really.

But then we did a really good one in 84 with a group of us.

And

we wanted to focus.

We told the folks that over if you have a criminal justice university nearby, and sure enough, it was Wichita in retrospect he went to

Wichita

you know you know and

very I mean

they will they follow

they'll read books and things like that people will always ask Nick too a question like well can they learn from from your books I mean it becomes like a manual and

not

not really because

Because

you should be able to read.

You can see when things are done, that the patterns just don't don't always fit there.

That the the killer may do something to the victim that gives himself away.

It may be the way the body is disposed of, say, a parent killing their child and

maybe read a book, you know, you know, to, okay, well, make sure you don't

you know, let somebody else find the victim.

Don't be the one to find the victim.

It's read some case like that.

But in a case like that, when we find say when we found the victim, we see that things were done to the victim, that the victim was buried, I'm thinking of a case as I'm telling you this, is buried in the back of a house

and

there's a plastic bag over the face and

part of the body to protect it from really from

the from the the elements, protect it from the insects and dirt.

It's something that

you know that someone close to the victim would have done.

Uh so you know we're not looking for a stranger, a stranger murder.

Uh so so y you should be able to

you should be able to pick up if someone uh'cause is following uh a uh a case.

Uh we had we had a case of uh uh uh of a this was years ago, it was Roy Hazelwood who's since passed away.

He was real good.

He did a lot in the area of rape.

And a woman uh got would get these upsane scene calls and she got a whistle and she blew the whistle into the phone

and she would be murdered and a whistle would be found, you know, be thrown on her body.

Also a magazine, a magazine that this guy just so happened to have, the killer had, of a woman using that technique on an obscene telephone call.

And these were these old true detective magazines we had, used to have years ago.

So

he got back, you know, he got back to her in an indirect,

not indirect, a very direct way from a magazine and retaliated.

But we ended up

getting him

as well, that guy.

You referenced that a criminal could read and could study crimes and possibly read your books to help them get away with murder and avoid being apprehended.

One thing that I found fascinating when reviewing some some old video footage was a gentleman that you met and spoke with, Mark Byers, who at one time was considered a suspect, at least in the minds of the public, in the West Memphis III case.

And I noticed in that video footage when he was being interviewed at his apartment that there were several of your books on his shelves or his desk.

Can you tell us why you believe that Mark Byers is not a good suspect in the West Memphis III case?

He had a book that I gave him a book after I determined he was not a suspect

in the case.

Mark Byers, yeah,

he recently died.

When he made that series of shows, what was the name of the first one?

The first one,

the HBO documentary, Paradise Lost: The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills.

He was plied with alcohol and

prescription drugs.

He was scripted

throughout that.

The person who

killed those children and

the method and manner of disposal told me

it was not Mark Byers.

He did not have a history, really,

any kind of a major kind of history of assault or path of behavior.

It was the other stepfather who was never interviewed by the police throughout the years

that

50 analysis that I did

for the team that was working the case.

The children,

it showed me, and my goal was,

was it a teenager, at least three teenagers involved?

No, the way the children were disposed of,

the children did have their clothes on, which would be a way of controlling controlling the kids if they're stripped down.

Or they could have been playing out there and they could have been naked to begin with when someone approached them.

But the way they were disposed of, and the person stuck a stick in the clothing

and poked it down under the water, that is pretty, fairly criminally

sophisticated.

The children died of combination of drowning and blunt force trauma.

There were people early on in the investigation that said there were were teeth marks, there were human teeth marks on the body.

It turned out it was animal predation.

You know, you probably know that

now.

But getting back to buyers, I spent hours and hours.

I mean, I spent

with all the victims.

And my goal, after I determined who

was not responsible, that this is a non-solved case,

they, meaning the investigative team, team, Peter Jackson, the director who was funding this, these experts here, was to talk to the parents.

And I got to talk to all the parents except the Moore victim.

They had since divorced and

I got the mother on the phone and

just could not

even even have an opportunity to speak with her.

I did get to speak to the other victims.

the other victims' families.

And at first they wanted to throw me out of their homes, but once I sat and explained to to them how different things how what happened to their children, that

this was not a youthful type of a crime at all.

And it was then,

again, the person who they came up with as a suspect, who was the other f father, the stepfather who was never interviewed.

Do you remember the name, Nick?

Terry Hobbs.

Yeah, Terry Hobbs.

I got to interview

I did interview him.

He did certainly have the

history of

violence.

They found a hair, which was interesting, but it was

human hair on one of the

in a ligature of the shoelaces that was used to tie one of the victims as hair.

It was mitochondrial DNA was found on the hair and also on a branch.

hair that was mitochondrial linked to you know linked back to him but the case

the case isn't going anywhere because

if they're not working the investigation at all, they had me speak to the district attorney down there and

after

we came out with

our show,

Peter Jackson produced.

And

I think it was called West of Memphis.

And

the father

I'm trying to think of what,

I'm trying to think of the

name of the show that we did, did I think.

But anyway, they had me talk to the, yeah, I can't, but it doesn't matter.

But I did speak to the district attorney, and the district attorney,

he saw the show, he's got a mist

about our take on it, and he says, and he said, I don't, he told me, I don't know, I don't know if they did it or not.

And I said, I do know.

They didn't do it.

They didn't do it.

And I explained to him the crime scene and the type of person that would have perpetrated this.

These crimes is not a useful type of an offender.

And he tells me, though, he says, well, the timing isn't very good.

The timing.

And I didn't know what he meant.

I thought maybe timing because he just released them from prison.

But it turned out 30 days later, I find out the timing isn't any good because he's running for political office down there.

And that's why the timing wasn't any good.

But no one to this day, I I mean, they didn't bring in like the Arkansas State Police in.

They're a very good police agency.

The Bureau really never got involved in the investigation either.

They were hell-bent on making this a satanic type of murder.

That was a big thing.

In that period of time, you had people like Geralda Rivera on television saying that there's 50,000 children are being abducted yearly, and it's showing a satanic connection.

Even Oprah Winfrey had a special on her show.

Cops were being trained, look for certain graffiti indicating Satanism and and yeah, and so they were hell-bent on making that a satanic crime.

And you have Damien Eccles and wearing black and

they had blinders on.

And so they they made a case using initially Jesse Miss Kelly, the

so-called confession that he you know that he gave.

But it's a shame.

It was a shame

of the wrongful conviction, how

lives

were

pretty much much destroyed.

And

so, one book I did, I did a book, Law and Disorder, that includes that case, includes the John Bennett Ramsey case, and includes the Amanda Knox case, all the cases I was involved with.

I did that a couple of years, three years ago, maybe.

Thank you guys so much for joining us here in the garage.

Join us again tomorrow if you're not following us on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook.

Or you can follow the Colonel, the crispiest of Colonels, on the app called Untapped so you can see what drinks the Colonel has been drinking.

That's right.

Join us back here in the garage tomorrow.

Until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.

Ooh, Gecko, I just love being able to file a claim in under two minutes with the Geico app.

Could you sign it?

Sign what?

The app?

Yeah.

Sure.

Oh, it rubbed off the screen when I touched it.

Could you sign it again?

Anything to help, I suppose.

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