Mind Hunter /// John Douglas /// Part 1

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Speaker 8 All right, everybody, gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.

Speaker 8 John Douglas started his career with the FBI in 1970. In the field, he served as a hostage negotiator.

Speaker 8 He transferred to the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, or BSU for short, in 1977, where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal psychology at the FBI Academy in Quantico.

Speaker 8 Douglas later went on to create and manage the FBI's criminal profiling program.

Speaker 8 While traveling around the country, providing instruction to law enforcement agencies, Douglas began interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons.

Speaker 8 He interviewed some of the most notable violent criminals as part of the study, including David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, and Edmund Kemper.

Speaker 8 He used the information gathered from these interviews, he examined crime scenes and created profiles of the perpetrators, describing their habits and attempting to predict their next move.

Speaker 8 In cases where his work helped to capture the criminals, he built strategies for interrogating and prosecuting them as well.

Speaker 8 Douglas first made a public name for himself with the involvement in the Atlanta child murders.

Speaker 8 Douglas first made a public name for himself with his involvement in the Atlanta child murders case back in 1977 to 1981.

Speaker 8 He is the author of two of the garage's favorite true crime books, Mind Hunter and the Cases That Haunt Us. And he's joining us here in the garage today via telephone.
And Mr.

Speaker 8 Douglas, it is an honor to have you joining us once again. Well, thank you.
First off, Mr. Douglas, everybody wants to know: will there be season three of Mindhunter?

Speaker 8 You certainly have the inside track. What can you tell us? Will it happen and when? I'll tell you,

Speaker 10 now it's like two months ago. I got a call from Holt McCallany, who plays Bill Tench character.
He stayed with me

Speaker 10 when he was developing his part in the show. But

Speaker 10 it sounded kind of grim and and was that all the actors wanted to return. But it was a question with

Speaker 10 David Fincher, the director. He spent so much time, so much time filming in Pittsburgh for each each season.

Speaker 10 He spent about seven months there, and he's such a perfectionist that the actors are are working almost the entire year on the you know, on each uh on e each series.

Speaker 10 What they were saying that he that he's uh you know exhausted. I just don't personally understand it, neither the uh some s uh some of the actors.
Uh uh why don't you get you some other directors?

Speaker 10 Uh some

Speaker 10 there were other directors involved in in season one and season two. Of the nineteen total episodes in two seasons, Fincher did did seven of them, personally did seven.

Speaker 10 But when he did the series House of Cards, he started it, but then other other directors took over uh over for the uh for the show. So I don't I mean, it's just,

Speaker 10 everyone's, you know, it's hoping

Speaker 10 it got tremendous ratings. The reviews were were all

Speaker 10 good.

Speaker 10 But I mean, it doesn't, for now, it's not.

Speaker 10 He takes, you know, if you can recall season two, the first episode, I'll just give you an idea.

Speaker 10 There was a barbecue scene with Bill Tench, and he's meeting his neighbors who are finding out for the first time kind of what he does with the profiling and at Quantico and all that.

Speaker 10 And he started asking questions. That one scene was repeated nearly 75 times, 75 times before Fincher approved it, how he wanted that scene to go.

Speaker 10 And it's because

Speaker 10 he's made the Netflix a lot of money.

Speaker 10 If it was anyone else they say, they would say, okay, it's fine. We'll get another director.
But no,

Speaker 10 they're not doing it. But I just, in the back of my mind, I just think they will at some point.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 I mean, I may be dead and buried, but at some point I hope they'll bring it back. There's so much more to tell.
I mean even season two, the Atlanta child killings, I mean that

Speaker 10 and and and you're

Speaker 10 you know you're

Speaker 10 the people listening to your show have to realize that's based on the book, but it's not the book.

Speaker 10 The like the Atlanta case did not go down like that. In fact, in reality, I thought it went down in in a real way, it went down a lot more dramatic.

Speaker 10 And my role in that case, as far as coaching the prosecution on how to interrogate him when he would take the stand, my attitude toward

Speaker 10 the prosecutors and experts that the FBI and the state brought in there and how they were going to throw my ass out of there. They did, because I was just so critical of them.
on how they testified.

Speaker 10 They were so technical, no one could even understand what they were saying. I mean, I couldn't understand what they were saying.

Speaker 10 And the defense experts that they brought in

Speaker 10 talk, they may have been saying stuff that's not correct, their analysis, but it was clear it was something that the jurors could follow. And they were nodding their heads like in agreement

Speaker 10 with their experts. So

Speaker 10 there's so much...

Speaker 10 You know, so they didn't finish that case. I was thinking of season three.
They got that case. I mean, they got, they have, I think there's so many different cases.

Speaker 10 The Ted Bundy case, they could do Robert Hansen up in Alaska who hunted women down

Speaker 10 like wild animals, which set them loose in the wilderness. And

Speaker 10 you have that case.

Speaker 10 You have Buffalo 22 caliber killer. I mean, it's just the Tylenol case.
Then cases of smaller, no one really the public doesn't even know about, but just very, very

Speaker 10 interesting

Speaker 10 cases. And it may not follow the book.
They're kind of interpreting it the way they want to, but

Speaker 10 it's better than some of the other shows that

Speaker 10 that I've seen. Even like with Criminal Minds, it's was a very successful show.

Speaker 10 But but behavioral science unit, we don't when you you're in that unit, you don't go you're not out making arrests, you're not taking cases away from police, you're not kicking down doors.

Speaker 10 You know, it's cerebral when you reach when you reach the the unit. And you're a coach.

Speaker 10 You're coaching

Speaker 10 FBI, you're coaching local law enforcement on

Speaker 10 how to

Speaker 10 investigate or

Speaker 10 lead them

Speaker 10 in the best direction for, say, an unknown subject case. So

Speaker 10 what they portrayed in Mindhunter series was good.

Speaker 10 Hopefully

Speaker 10 it's a five-year, it was a five-year arc to the show. It's supposed to be on for five years.

Speaker 10 And then there's plenty of cases to fill up those five years. So we will see.

Speaker 8 Yes, when asked to give a brief description about Mindhunter, when I recommend the show to friends and family, I always say it's the more adult, more intelligent, real life version of Criminal Minds.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, it's just it's such interest in

Speaker 10 that kind of show today, in these crime conferences around the country, it's just it's it's amazing.

Speaker 10 When I haven't done any public speaking because of the COVID virus, but when I've been going out to conferences, 80-90% of the audience are women too, that are really

Speaker 10 into this. Well, they want to know, because

Speaker 10 they're the victims of

Speaker 10 the kind of violent crimes that I and my colleagues have worked over the years. And they're interested in to better understand the personality.
What creates these people? What makes these people

Speaker 10 different than we are?

Speaker 10 What was their backgrounds? Was it predictable that they would commit

Speaker 10 these

Speaker 10 types of crimes? And

Speaker 10 now with all these dating services,

Speaker 10 meeting people

Speaker 10 at locations, you don't know.

Speaker 10 Just because someone puts a nice picture up and gives you this background this little bio doesn't mean that's who the person really is.

Speaker 10 My mother,

Speaker 10 since passed away, she used to tell my sister,

Speaker 10 when you meet a man or boy, this was years ago, when you meet a boy, ask about what his relationship is with his mother.

Speaker 10 And my mother was right on the money there because of the people who I've interviewed, some of the most violent offenders, there was always an issue on the mother's side where there was this abuse or neglect of

Speaker 10 some type

Speaker 10 going on with them.

Speaker 10 They loved their mother and St. Santa hated their mother.
When I interviewed Gary Hydnicks in Philadelphia, who kept women in the pit, like in the movie Silence of the Lambs, I interviewed him.

Speaker 10 Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes, just got to 60 Minutes, that's how long ago it was, in 1991, and followed me into Pittsburgh to interview, where I interviewed Gary Heidnick.

Speaker 10 And when I got around to talking about his mother, he just went absolutely nuts, you know, and crying and,

Speaker 10 you know, and

Speaker 10 he loved her and hated her all at the same time. And she was very, very abusive, you know, toward him.

Speaker 10 And this is not to say, that everyone is abused, which turned out to be a violent, you know, anything, but I'm just saying of of the people who I've interviewed,

Speaker 10 rarely, I can't think of one that you could say came from some loving, nurturing kind of background. They all have some type of

Speaker 10 dysfunction in their lives.

Speaker 8 Let's talk about the still unsolved, terrorizing murders and threats from the unidentified serial killer who called himself the Zodiac.

Speaker 8 You reviewed and profiled the Zodiac case years after the fact and still were able to offer up some very fascinating and intriguing analysis about the crimes and the person who committed them.

Speaker 8 Yeah,

Speaker 10 well, with the Zodiac, we never think the unit really never got involved with the

Speaker 10 analysis of that case. We've had a lot of people come forward over the years.
There's been different suspects

Speaker 10 developed.

Speaker 10 When that case was going on, we really didn't even have a behavioral science unit. When we finally got the case,

Speaker 10 it was when so-called Zodiac was writing a communication, wrote a communication to the detective who was assigned to the case. He had a private office, a private line, a hotline.
And so we got

Speaker 10 we were going to do an analysis of the communication, we call it psycholinguistic analysis. All it is is just you're doing a profile of the author of the communication.

Speaker 10 Police immediately called us up and said, stop, forget about it.

Speaker 10 Why? Why? We We figure out who wrote the communication. Who was it? The detective.
Wow.

Speaker 10 The detective wrote the communication himself to, he's trying to, because he had not had any good leads, no leads. Everything just died.
There was nothing going on.

Speaker 10 And to perpetuate the case, he wrote this so-called letter from

Speaker 10 the zodiac.

Speaker 10 But as far as, I mean, it's a case,

Speaker 10 if it was a case today,

Speaker 10 I think we'd be successful

Speaker 10 when you get a case like that

Speaker 10 and how I was evolving in when I was the unit chief in the bureau and training others it's I was kind of de-emphasizing the profile because of course the whole the idea of a profile is you're trying to generate leads you're trying to try to

Speaker 10 pique the mind of interest of people who may know

Speaker 10 some of the the characteristics of

Speaker 10 that are fitting this character the uh the person responsible for the crime so I began to focus in more on on proactive techniques uh and uh

Speaker 10 to to to maybe get the subject uh to inject himself in the investigation or get the subject to to go to a particular location uh because we we may have uh planted something there, we may have had a memorial service there, uh

Speaker 10 and uh

Speaker 10 just give you an example.

Speaker 10 I was sent to go before the

Speaker 10 internal affairs, they call it OPR Office of Professional Responsibility,

Speaker 10 which is not good when you go before internal affairs.

Speaker 10 And so I went before a whole group and they said, John, you're not lying, are you, to

Speaker 10 the media, through the media, to the public? You're not lying, are you?

Speaker 10 I said, what do you mean? Are you telling the truth? I said, well, I don't know. I said, let me give you an example.
I said,

Speaker 10 and I told him, there's a case in San Diego that a woman's car was broken down off the side of the road.

Speaker 10 She ran out of gasoline.

Speaker 10 No one knows where she is for a day or two. Then they find her up

Speaker 10 outside of San Diego in some foothills. And she has a dog collar around her neck.
She's been sexually assaulted and she's been garotted.

Speaker 10 I worked with the police.

Speaker 10 I'm telling the internal affairs this, I worked with the police, we came out with a series of articles. I said because it was my opinion that

Speaker 10 whoever killed her was the guy who picked her up to take her maybe to a gas station, gas station, so she thought.

Speaker 10 And so

Speaker 10 we want to put a series of communications out looking for lead value. Did anyone see anything? Did anyone see anything, any vehicle stop, any description of a vehicle or a car? We put that out.

Speaker 10 We fled the airways

Speaker 10 and we waited a couple of days, and now we come out with another.

Speaker 10 We're getting very good leads, thanking the public. We are now getting a description of not only the vehicle, but the individual

Speaker 10 who stopped alongside of the victim's car.

Speaker 10 The purpose of that was to get the subject to inject himself into the investigation to

Speaker 10 come up with a legitimate reason why he may have been spotted there. And sure enough, the guy injects himself into the investigation that just so you know that I was there.
I offered her a ride.

Speaker 10 She said she ran out of gas, but she said no, so I went on my merry way. So I told Internal Affairs,

Speaker 10 that was the guy. We arrested him, or the police arrested him.
Now, if you're telling me, you're telling me, am I lying to the press or whatever? Well, it's not exactly the truth. It's not the truth.

Speaker 10 But we caught this. So they, the police caught it by using this technique.

Speaker 10 And so, they look at me and

Speaker 10 they say, well,

Speaker 10 it will just tell you something.

Speaker 10 We understand what you're saying, but

Speaker 10 if it ever gets out or anything, or you screw up, man, we're going to have your head. We're going to have your head.

Speaker 10 I'll be working cattle wrestling cases in Butte, Montana, or someplace.

Speaker 10 If not fired from the Bureau, so I started really working on

Speaker 10 proactive kinds of things and

Speaker 10 interview

Speaker 10 techniques and suggestions.

Speaker 10 Because sometimes you may do a profile and it doesn't fit every characteristic. So someone will say, well,

Speaker 10 that profile,

Speaker 10 they said he would have

Speaker 10 a college education

Speaker 10 and this guy only, he's a high school.

Speaker 10 high school education. Well, we may miss the age, which is difficult.
Age is difficult. Because there's chronological age and behavioral age.
And

Speaker 10 you

Speaker 10 may miss that. We missed the Arthur Shawcross case up in Rochester, New York.
We missed it by about 15 years.

Speaker 10 And the reason we missed it was because he was incarcerated for those 15 years for a double homicide where he killed two children. And then he gets out of prison.
It's unbelievable.

Speaker 10 They let him out of prison after serving 15 years. And he goes up to Rochester and he starts killing prostitutes up in Rochester.
So we got everything right.

Speaker 10 Missed the age,

Speaker 10 but we staked out, we told them to stake out, if you find a body, don't recover it right away, but stake it out. And so the cops,

Speaker 10 they get a lead. There's a body below a bridge, an overpass, below a bridge in the country,

Speaker 10 and

Speaker 10 there's a victim down there, and it's frozen over with ice. And they stake it out.

Speaker 10 Guess what?

Speaker 10 Police are surveilling it.

Speaker 10 Here comes a guy, just just sits on the edge of the bridge, eating, having a drink, and the victim is right below him, and that was Arthur Shawcross, serial killer in Rochester, New York.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 I like the idea of developing, you know,

Speaker 10 using your imagination and creativity to catch these guys and kind of de-emphasize, like I said, de-emphasize

Speaker 10 the profile. Sometimes you can be right on the money.
Some cases, you can forget

Speaker 10 you can't do it because too many maybe too many types of people could perpetrate this kind of type of crime.

Speaker 10 And rape cases, we have surviving victims. We could be pretty good

Speaker 10 once if we do the right kind of interview or

Speaker 10 we coach a police to determine what was the verbal assault was, what the sexual assault was, and what the physical assault was, verbal, sexual, physical.

Speaker 10 And what was it like throughout the first counter with the victim during this sexual assault and afterwards? Verbal, sexual, physical. And if we have that information, we do a good interview.

Speaker 10 That kind of case, we can do a very good profile and come up with, because we have a rape type. We have

Speaker 10 about five or six rape typologies based upon if we have that kind of information where we can determine pretty good who the offender is.

Speaker 8 In a similar fashion, in regards to the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa, This is the murder of Cecilia Shepard and the attempted murder of Brian Hartnell.

Speaker 8 During the course of tying up the victims, the Zodiac killer wearing a black executioner's type hood with clip-on sunglasses over the eye holes disguise He claimed to be an escaped convict from the Montana State Prison in Deer Lodge, Montana, where he had killed a guard and stole a car to make a getaway.

Speaker 8 Now he's telling the the young couple he just needed their vehicle and money to drive and escape to Mexico.

Speaker 8 You had said you would have used that information to try to draw the killer out to present himself to law enforcement and come forward. What would have been your strategy to do so?

Speaker 8 It would have just been to

Speaker 8 release.

Speaker 8 I just believe in working with the media, investigative reporters with the media, releasing information and not sitting on it.

Speaker 10 You can sit on information for a period of a couple of, you know, maybe a couple of days or so, but at some point you have to

Speaker 10 release the information. Now whether or not that information was true or not,

Speaker 10 we wouldn't have

Speaker 10 known that.

Speaker 10 Again,

Speaker 10 I'd have to, it's been so long since I even looked at that, you know, that case. But let me tell you something else that's similar.

Speaker 10 What he did, his technique, he was trying to diffuse the situation. He was trying to calm the victims down.
Don't worry, all I want is your vehicle. Same thing.

Speaker 10 I interviewed Dennis Rada, the BTK strangler, in a case that I did in the 70s and 80s, and

Speaker 10 analysis never led to his arrest. His stupidity led to his arrest.
But he used that same

Speaker 10 technique with the Otero family when he killed the Oterros and

Speaker 10 the children, the mother and father. That please, all I want, you know, I just want your car

Speaker 10 and your money. I'm not going to do anything to you.
And so they allowed

Speaker 10 it was a very good modus operandi. It allowed him to diffuse the situation and

Speaker 10 gain control of them and

Speaker 10 tie them up.

Speaker 10 Going back to the Zodiac,

Speaker 10 it kind of shows you, though, it's pretty sophisticated. It's a pretty good MO

Speaker 10 to use. It almost sounds like,

Speaker 10 it's been so long, it almost sounds like a law enforcement technique. Dennis Rader was a pseudo-law enforcement.
He was a compliance officer in town. He was studying criminal justice at Wichita State.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 a lot of these serial killer types do have law enforcement backgrounds, like the Golden Gate killer

Speaker 10 out there,

Speaker 10 But even others who or you ask them what

Speaker 10 would be your favorite profession, and generally it's law enforcement, is what they pick. And some of them will active, or even actually work work as security guards.
So but

Speaker 10 sometimes it's disturbing to

Speaker 10 see how I can't think of the name. You probably know this, Nick.
The case in Indiana of the two little girls that were on that bridge.

Speaker 8 Yes, the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German from Delphi, Indiana.

Speaker 8 I did a brief interview on, I think it was Good Morning America.

Speaker 10 I had that other book out,

Speaker 10 Killer Cross, and they threw out that case.

Speaker 10 And they've never, I mean, you can sit on that information, but when they sit on had the audio tapes, the audio tapes, and

Speaker 10 you know, it was like, I think what I would call it, some like, come with me, follow me, or something like come with me.

Speaker 8 Yes, the perpetrator said, guys down the hill yeah it's it's and they sound authoritarian man i mean you know

Speaker 10 and they sat on that god wasn't it like two years or so it was it was ridiculous you don't you don't sit on on something like uh

Speaker 10 you know like that uh you know for that period of time that case to me

Speaker 10 that was a solvable kind of case that is not a

Speaker 10 It's not a case where some stranger comes roaming into a community and just by the fluke, you know, and this, I think it was like a winter day,

Speaker 10 he comes across this railroad trestle and he confronts these girls. It's like he has

Speaker 10 this knowledge, a knowledge of the area. That's his comfort zone, that area there, whatever that area is like.

Speaker 10 I just don't know. I know it was just rural.
I don't know. We don't know how they were killed.
If you knew how they were killed even,

Speaker 10 like I said, you can sit on it for a while,

Speaker 10 but

Speaker 10 I think it would have been been very solvable. If I would have known, like, were they sexually assaulted? Yes or no? Were they both sexually assaulted?

Speaker 10 Were they redressed? Were they on clothes? Did he pose the bodies? Did he try to secrete the bodies, hide the bodies

Speaker 10 from open view? Are they missing anything, any jewelry, any clothing, or anything like that?

Speaker 10 Method of death.

Speaker 10 Can we determine who was killed first?

Speaker 10 It's really a solvable case, but

Speaker 10 not a year later,

Speaker 10 two years later. I mean, unless they

Speaker 10 luck out and get DNA.

Speaker 10 But it's,

Speaker 10 yeah,

Speaker 10 I just, it upsets me sometimes when I see why didn't they release this information? I mean, I do the same thing with the Bureau, too,

Speaker 10 with our own cases.

Speaker 10 You can sit on them for a while, but bits and pieces of information you can certainly let out to the public.

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Speaker 8 Mr. Douglas, you referenced BTK Dennis Rader, and I was talking about the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa.

Speaker 8 Do you think that there's a high probability, a good chance, that Dennis Rader learned that technique by reading about the Zodiac killer?

Speaker 8 Yes. Yeah, because like I said,

Speaker 10 he was in criminal justice. In fact, the initial analysis we did,

Speaker 10 we did one in 79, and we were just getting going, really. But then we did a really good one in 84 with a group of us.
And

Speaker 10 we wanted to focus. We told the folks that over if you have a criminal justice university nearby, and sure enough, it was Wichita in retrospect he went to

Speaker 10 Wichita

Speaker 10 you know you know and

Speaker 10 very I mean

Speaker 10 they will they follow

Speaker 10 they'll read books and things like that people will always ask Nick too a question like well can they learn from from your books I mean it becomes like a manual and

Speaker 10 not

Speaker 10 not really because

Speaker 10 Because

Speaker 10 you should be able to read. You can see when things are done, that the patterns just don't don't always fit there.
That the the killer may do something to the victim that gives himself away.

Speaker 10 It may be the way the body is disposed of, say, a parent killing their child and

Speaker 10 maybe read a book, you know, you know, to, okay, well, make sure you don't

Speaker 10 you know, let somebody else find the victim. Don't be the one to find the victim.

Speaker 10 It's read some case like that.

Speaker 10 But in a case like that, when we find say when we found the victim, we see that things were done to the victim, that the victim was buried, I'm thinking of a case as I'm telling you this, is buried in the back of a house

Speaker 10 and

Speaker 10 there's a plastic bag over the face and

Speaker 10 part of the body to protect it from really from

Speaker 10 the from the the elements, protect it from the insects and dirt. It's something that

Speaker 10 you know that someone close to the victim would have done. Uh so you know we're not looking for a stranger, a stranger murder.
Uh so so y you should be able to

Speaker 10 you should be able to pick up if someone uh'cause is following uh a uh a case. Uh we had we had a case of uh uh uh of a this was years ago, it was Roy Hazelwood who's since passed away.

Speaker 10 He was real good. He did a lot in the area of rape.
And a woman uh got would get these upsane scene calls and she got a whistle and she blew the whistle into the phone

Speaker 10 and she would be murdered and a whistle would be found, you know, be thrown on her body.

Speaker 10 Also a magazine, a magazine that this guy just so happened to have, the killer had, of a woman using that technique on an obscene telephone call.

Speaker 10 And these were these old true detective magazines we had, used to have years ago.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 he got back, you know, he got back to her in an indirect,

Speaker 10 not indirect, a very direct way from a magazine and retaliated. But we ended up

Speaker 10 getting him

Speaker 10 as well, that guy.

Speaker 8 You referenced that a criminal could read and could study crimes and possibly read your books to help them get away with murder and avoid being apprehended.

Speaker 8 One thing that I found fascinating when reviewing some some old video footage was a gentleman that you met and spoke with, Mark Byers, who at one time was considered a suspect, at least in the minds of the public, in the West Memphis III case.

Speaker 8 And I noticed in that video footage when he was being interviewed at his apartment that there were several of your books on his shelves or his desk.

Speaker 8 Can you tell us why you believe that Mark Byers is not a good suspect in the West Memphis III case?

Speaker 10 He had a book that I gave him a book after I determined he was not a suspect

Speaker 10 in the case.

Speaker 10 Mark Byers, yeah,

Speaker 10 he recently died.

Speaker 10 When he made that series of shows, what was the name of the first one? The first one,

Speaker 8 the HBO documentary, Paradise Lost: The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills.

Speaker 10 He was plied with alcohol and

Speaker 10 prescription drugs.

Speaker 10 He was scripted

Speaker 10 throughout that.

Speaker 10 The person who

Speaker 10 killed those children and

Speaker 10 the method and manner of disposal told me

Speaker 10 it was not Mark Byers.

Speaker 10 He did not have a history, really,

Speaker 10 any kind of a major kind of history of assault or path of behavior.

Speaker 10 It was the other stepfather who was never interviewed by the police throughout the years

Speaker 10 that

Speaker 10 50 analysis that I did

Speaker 10 for the team that was working the case.

Speaker 10 The children,

Speaker 10 it showed me, and my goal was,

Speaker 10 was it a teenager, at least three teenagers involved? No, the way the children were disposed of,

Speaker 10 the children did have their clothes on, which would be a way of controlling controlling the kids if they're stripped down.

Speaker 10 Or they could have been playing out there and they could have been naked to begin with when someone approached them. But the way they were disposed of, and the person stuck a stick in the clothing

Speaker 10 and poked it down under the water, that is pretty, fairly criminally

Speaker 10 sophisticated.

Speaker 10 The children died of combination of drowning and blunt force trauma.

Speaker 10 There were people early on in the investigation that said there were were teeth marks, there were human teeth marks on the body. It turned out it was animal predation.

Speaker 10 You know, you probably know that

Speaker 10 now. But getting back to buyers, I spent hours and hours.
I mean, I spent

Speaker 10 with all the victims. And my goal, after I determined who

Speaker 10 was not responsible, that this is a non-solved case,

Speaker 10 they, meaning the investigative team, team, Peter Jackson, the director who was funding this, these experts here, was to talk to the parents.

Speaker 10 And I got to talk to all the parents except the Moore victim.

Speaker 10 They had since divorced and

Speaker 10 I got the mother on the phone and

Speaker 10 just could not

Speaker 10 even even have an opportunity to speak with her. I did get to speak to the other victims.
the other victims' families.

Speaker 10 And at first they wanted to throw me out of their homes, but once I sat and explained to to them how different things how what happened to their children, that

Speaker 10 this was not a youthful type of a crime at all.

Speaker 10 And it was then,

Speaker 10 again, the person who they came up with as a suspect, who was the other f father, the stepfather who was never interviewed. Do you remember the name, Nick?

Speaker 8 Terry Hobbs.

Speaker 10 Yeah, Terry Hobbs. I got to interview

Speaker 10 I did interview him. He did certainly have the

Speaker 10 history of

Speaker 10 violence. They found a hair, which was interesting, but it was

Speaker 10 human hair on one of the

Speaker 10 in a ligature of the shoelaces that was used to tie one of the victims as hair.

Speaker 10 It was mitochondrial DNA was found on the hair and also on a branch. hair that was mitochondrial linked to you know linked back to him but the case

Speaker 10 the case isn't going anywhere because

Speaker 10 if they're not working the investigation at all, they had me speak to the district attorney down there and

Speaker 10 after

Speaker 10 we came out with

Speaker 10 our show,

Speaker 10 Peter Jackson produced.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 I think it was called West of Memphis.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 the father

Speaker 10 I'm trying to think of what,

Speaker 10 I'm trying to think of the

Speaker 10 name of the show that we did, did I think. But anyway, they had me talk to the, yeah, I can't, but it doesn't matter.
But I did speak to the district attorney, and the district attorney,

Speaker 10 he saw the show, he's got a mist

Speaker 10 about our take on it, and he says, and he said, I don't, he told me, I don't know, I don't know if they did it or not. And I said, I do know.

Speaker 10 They didn't do it. They didn't do it.
And I explained to him the crime scene and the type of person that would have perpetrated this. These crimes is not a useful type of an offender.

Speaker 10 And he tells me, though, he says, well, the timing isn't very good. The timing.
And I didn't know what he meant. I thought maybe timing because he just released them from prison.

Speaker 10 But it turned out 30 days later, I find out the timing isn't any good because he's running for political office down there. And that's why the timing wasn't any good.

Speaker 10 But no one to this day, I I mean, they didn't bring in like the Arkansas State Police in. They're a very good police agency.
The Bureau really never got involved in the investigation either.

Speaker 10 They were hell-bent on making this a satanic type of murder. That was a big thing.

Speaker 10 In that period of time, you had people like Geralda Rivera on television saying that there's 50,000 children are being abducted yearly, and it's showing a satanic connection.

Speaker 10 Even Oprah Winfrey had a special on her show. Cops were being trained, look for certain graffiti indicating Satanism and and yeah, and so they were hell-bent on making that a satanic crime.

Speaker 10 And you have Damien Eccles and wearing black and

Speaker 10 they had blinders on. And so they they made a case using initially Jesse Miss Kelly, the

Speaker 10 so-called confession that he you know that he gave. But it's a shame.
It was a shame

Speaker 10 of the wrongful conviction, how

Speaker 10 lives

Speaker 10 were

Speaker 10 pretty much much destroyed. And

Speaker 10 so, one book I did, I did a book, Law and Disorder, that includes that case, includes the John Bennett Ramsey case, and includes the Amanda Knox case, all the cases I was involved with.

Speaker 10 I did that a couple of years, three years ago, maybe.

Speaker 9 Thank you guys so much for joining us here in the garage. Join us again tomorrow if you're not following us on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook.

Speaker 9 Or you can follow the Colonel, the crispiest of Colonels, on the app called Untapped so you can see what drinks the Colonel has been drinking.

Speaker 8 That's right. Join us back here in the garage tomorrow.
Until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.

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