Ellen Greenberg ////// 886

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Speaker 4 All right, everybody, gather out, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.

Speaker 5 A court hearing today on the ME report that reconfirms Greenberg's death has been ruled a suicide.

Speaker 6 She was found dead in her Mannyunk apartment with 20 stab wounds back in 2011. The case was initially ruled a homicide, but a recent Hulu docu series has put the case back in the spotlight.

Speaker 6 And Shana, you spoke with the attorney today.

Speaker 5 Yes, I did.

Speaker 5 And the actual hearing itself was really supposed to be the chance to hear from the medical examiner on her ruling, but in lieu of the city unexpectedly releasing her ruling on Friday, calling Ellen Greenberg's death a suicide, the Greenberg family and their attorney say the fight doesn't stop here.

Speaker 7 How anybody can have faith in the law enforcement institutions in Philadelphia when you see what has happened with the Greenbergs?

Speaker 5 Joe Pedraza, the attorney representing the parents and the estate of Ellen Greenberg, speaking candidly after Tuesday afternoon's hearing.

Speaker 7 The hearing itself was quick because of a development that occurred before it.

Speaker 5 The development.

Speaker 5 The medical examiner's re-examination ruling released unexpectedly Friday, just days before the ME was expected to appear before a judge and announce her ruling and take questions after calling Ellen Greenberg's death a suicide.

Speaker 7 The city has taken the position that the report

Speaker 7 serves in lieu of the need for the medical examiner to appear.

Speaker 5 The Greenberg family attorney calling the medical examiner's report shameful.

Speaker 7 There is no way anybody can professionally express the opinion that Ellen committed suicide.

Speaker 5 27-year-old Ellen Greenberg, a newly engaged Philadelphia school teacher, was found by her fiancée in her manning compartment stabbed to death back in January of 2011.

Speaker 5 Greenberg sustained more than 20 stab wounds. Her death was initially ruled a homicide by then-medical examiner Marlon Osborne, but shortly after was reversed to suicide.

Speaker 7 There's so many inaccuracies in the report. There's so many omissions in the report.
And there's so many things taken out of context.

Speaker 5 Pedraza, citing a number of points addressed in the medical examiner's report, including the questioning of the time of death and the more than 20 stab wounds to Greenberg's body.

Speaker 7 These are powerful points that, unless you can explain them away, you can't call this a suicide.

Speaker 5 Pedraza says this ruling, in his view, goes beyond just this report.

Speaker 7 This report is just another obstacle that's been thrown up by the city to prevent that investigation from being done.

Speaker 5 Fox 29 reached out out to the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office for comment, a spokesperson for the department saying in part, quote, the medical examiner's office completed its report and provided it to the plaintiffs pursuant to the obligations under the settlement agreement.

Speaker 5 We have no further comment as a matter of policy.

Speaker 7 The Green Birds lost their only child, a young woman, 27 years of age. They're never going to see her married.
or go to a marriage for her. All of that has been taken away from them.

Speaker 7 And then this huge hole hole in their heart what does the city do it just dumps salt in it

Speaker 4 27 year old ellen ray greenberg who mysteriously died a tragic death on January 26, 2011.

Speaker 4 This led her parents down a very long and troubling road filled with opposition and legal battles simply to determine correctly the manner of their daughter's death. Was it suicide? Was it a homicide?

Speaker 4 Or should the death have been ruled undetermined?

Speaker 4 In February of 2025, the pathologist that originally ruled the case a suicide signed a document stating he amended his position on the cause of her death, no longer considering it a suicide.

Speaker 4 He wrote, it is my professional opinion Ellen's manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide, end quote.

Speaker 4 Since Osborne is no longer employed by the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office, his statement does not have any influence on the official death certificate.

Speaker 4 In February of 2025, here at True Crime Garage, we covered the mysterious death, the very questionable death of Ellen Greenberg in a three-part series, episodes 823 through 825, and an additional episode on True Crime Garage off the record, available on Patreon and Apple subscription.

Speaker 4 Joining us here today in the garage to further examine this case with her expert analysis, especially with the recent updates in this case, is a very special guest. We have Cheryl Mac McCollum.

Speaker 4 Welcome to the garage.

Speaker 8 Captain Nick, thank you, thank you, thank you. The first thing I've got to say is congratulations on 10 years.

Speaker 8 That is remarkable to me. There are marriages that don't last that long.
There are certainly podcasts that don't live and, you know, stay viable that long.

Speaker 8 And what y'all have done is just absolutely stellar. So congratulations.

Speaker 4 We owe everything to you.

Speaker 4 I'll take it.

Speaker 4 I like to call her Cheryl Mac. I've heard others simply say Mac.

Speaker 4 Is there an opinion here, Cheryl, on what you prefer to be called?

Speaker 8 Either one is fabulous. Cheryl Mac is great.
Mac is great. Doesn't matter.

Speaker 4 Love it. As long as you call me beautiful, I don't care what you call me.

Speaker 8 See, it is not difficult, people. It's really not.
You just summed it up, Sugar.

Speaker 4 That's perfect.

Speaker 4 For those of you listening that do not know, and how I wouldn't understand why you wouldn't know, but for the folks that do not know, Cheryl McCollum is a crime analyst, a college professor, an author, and founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute based in Atlanta, Georgia.

Speaker 4 And I say, wow, Cheryl, with a resume like that, I can tell you are a real slacker.

Speaker 8 Well, I'm going to tell you all the truth. I've been lucky, and I tell rookies that at the Academy, do not ever discount luck.
It's a tremendous thing. We were talking off air.

Speaker 8 One of the first lucky things that ever happened to me when I was assigned to the major case division, the prosecutor assigned to that division was Nancy Grace.

Speaker 8 So right out of the gate, I had somebody dynamic and professional and ethical that was going to lead our team.

Speaker 4 So luck is good. And we were talking off mic just prior to this recording session about Nancy Grace, one of our favorite people to see each year at Crime Con.

Speaker 8 Absolutely amazing. Yeah, I mean, she set the stage.
I mean, there's no question. She was doing true crime before anybody even used that term.

Speaker 8 And, you know, if not for her, the three of us wouldn't be talking this very day.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. You're also an Emmy Award winner.
for your work on the extremely popular TV series CSI Atlanta. What's that like?

Speaker 8 You know, that was one of those things, too, that just came about from a good friend of mine, Karen Greer. She had an idea to put some of these local cases on TV

Speaker 8 and then let's work them like I would work them as though they were my cases. And that's what we did.
And we got a couple of them solved and we got four nominations and one right out of the gate.

Speaker 8 So It's kind of strange.

Speaker 4 Please tell your people that me and Nick would love love to be the new host of Unsolved Mysteries.

Speaker 8 Oh, wouldn't that be great?

Speaker 4 Yeah, they need a host,

Speaker 4 and we got two handsome guys here in the garage that could do it perfectly. Agreed.

Speaker 8 I'm on the phone as soon as we get off this thing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, together, there you go. Together, the two of us could combine to make one decent host, I think.
Right,

Speaker 4 two halves make a whole.

Speaker 4 For

Speaker 4 longtime listeners of this show, if you remember a few years back,

Speaker 4 there was a picture on my Twitter feed of me standing holding

Speaker 4 the Emmy award. And that was not an award that I won.

Speaker 4 That was actually Cheryl's Emmy that I stole off of your table at CrimeCon and I ran it back to my table so that I could have people take pictures of me holding it.

Speaker 4 So they, I've not won any awards, Cheryl.

Speaker 8 You know, even in my acceptance speech, I told them that I was going to treat mine like the Stanley Cup. Everybody that helped me on that show was going to get a weekend.

Speaker 8 Well, when I brought it to ComCon, it was the same thing. Take your picture, do your own acceptance speech, enjoy that thing because I'm not going to see another one, you know.

Speaker 8 So let's enjoy it, all of us.

Speaker 4 In 2022, Cheryl Mack started her podcast, Zone 7, with Cheryl McCollum, which explores cold case crimes. And Zone 7, a fantastic podcast, by the way, has explored this very strange case several times.

Speaker 4 Cheryl, I know you often have guests on your show, and this is an extremely controversial case, one that has made headlines, been all over Reddit, and continues to make waves.

Speaker 4 Even just last week, I saw two new articles pop up on the internet about this case, and I'm sure that there were many more.

Speaker 4 But some podcasters look at cases in different ways quite different ways actually some simply reporting true crime garage most weeks we are able to do a full examination providing that there is enough materials to pour over but we are looking at these cases with our garage goggles strapped on very tightly you my dear have what they call a trained eye in fact you have two of them how

Speaker 4 and with who did you decide to examine this case the ellen greenberg case?

Speaker 8 Well, I wanted to talk to Dr. Priya Banerjee for sure.
I mean, she's a pathologist. I'm not.
So I wanted somebody at that level to just break down for me those stab wounds.

Speaker 8 Could you possibly, as the coup de grace, stab yourself in the chest four inches deep? And I want your listeners to understand the way my mind works.

Speaker 8 If you hit your elbow hard enough, you know how your hand just feels numb for a second?

Speaker 8 You start stabbing yourself between vertebrae. I don't know that you're going to be able to do that.
So I needed somebody to tell me with those injuries, could that even be possible?

Speaker 8 And then, of course, you know, Joe Scott Morgan and Joshua Schiffer, I mean, there were several people that I wanted to talk to, especially Joshua being a defense attorney.

Speaker 8 If you as a defense attorney are going to tell me there's problems with this case being a suicide, now we're getting somewhere, right?

Speaker 8 But, you know, I go back to when I teach at the academy. And y'all, there's something we always do with rookies.
And we tell them, look, you know, there's three teens in a park.

Speaker 8 Several witnesses see them. They're walking around.
They go down by the lake. They're sitting on a picnic table.
One's wearing a green shirt. One's wearing a black shirt.
One's wearing a blue shirt.

Speaker 8 Now, according to the teen in the black shirt, around 4.30, a teen that's wearing the green shirt says, hey, I'm headed home. My mom's making my favorite meal.
See you tomorrow at school.

Speaker 8 Then closer to five o'clock, the teen wearing the blue shirt says, oh, I just got a text message. My girlfriend's mom has left for work for the night shift.
There ain't a parent in the house.

Speaker 8 I'm going to go visit her. From the group, how many teens are left in the park? And the rookies always say, one, the kid wearing the black shirt.

Speaker 8 Well, the answer is, you don't know.

Speaker 8 You don't know that either one of those boys left the park you know somebody told you that so on this case with that same frame in mind when i read that in the police report and it's been stated all over the place no forced entry no forced entry yet the boyfriend broke down the door well both of those things can't be true so the problem with somebody in law enforcement writing in the report, no forced entry, right out of the gate, that tells me they accepted somebody's version of what happened, not their investigation.

Speaker 8 Because if they had done an investigation, it would have never said no forced entry.

Speaker 4 And I think that go, that plays well into something that I'm reminded of regularly when we examine these cases.

Speaker 4 It goes to public perception of how an investigation is conducted and how a determination is made.

Speaker 4 And a lot of times times, I think that the general public assume that the medical examiner is simply looking at the body in front of them, writing up their report, and making a determination solely off of that.

Speaker 4 But what gets left out of that equation a lot of times is something that is very real and very true: that they are also taking a look at the circumstances in which the body is found, how it is found, what is found with the body, and the story of the scene certainly plays into their ruling, correct?

Speaker 8 100%, Nick. It's got to,

Speaker 8 especially if they weren't at the scene. The crime scene tells you so much.

Speaker 8 So does the body. But you need both of those things.
That's why when you have a really good homicide detective, they're going to the autopsy.

Speaker 4 And how much do you think that

Speaker 4 written into the record of no forced entry may have played a role in the deciding factors of ruling this a suicide right out the gate? There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 8 So when you watch TV,

Speaker 8 you know how sometimes on a show, somebody will roll up and they'll say, hey, Joe, what do we got?

Speaker 4 And then Joe will tell them, oh, there's a...

Speaker 8 girl dead on the third floor homicide or suicide or oh it's a terrible accident i don't ever do that i go in that scene by myself. I determine what I'm seeing based on the evidence.

Speaker 8 So the evidence leads me, not Joe. I don't care what Joe thinks yet.
When I come back out and the lead detective goes in, then we talk.

Speaker 8 If we both see homicide or suicide or accident or natural, then great, we're on the same page. If we're not, we're going back in together.

Speaker 8 And I want to see what he saw saw and I want him to see what I saw so that we can make the best determination. Because something like this case should never happen.

Speaker 8 Homicide, suicide, homicide, suicide, suicide, homicide. That shouldn't be a back and forth.
It just shouldn't. That should never happen.

Speaker 8 So somewhere evidence was not put together properly. It wasn't put together so that everybody understood this is what we're looking at.

Speaker 8 I mean, you've got the court of public opinion that will tell you this young lady was murdered, but now we have not one ruling, but a second ruling that has said suicide, even though the second ruling found even more stab wounds.

Speaker 4 We, the captain and I, when we take a look at cases,

Speaker 4 and it doesn't even have to be similar to this one, but

Speaker 4 we always go into it with the mindset of, all right, somebody, somebody has passed, somebody is dead. Why?

Speaker 4 But we always look at it as this is a homicide until we can prove otherwise or until we see other, other suggestive evidence that it's not a homicide.

Speaker 4 Because I feel like the flipping it back to a homicide is far more difficult than

Speaker 4 to take it from a homicide angle and then it becomes an accidental death or a suicide.

Speaker 8 Nick, you and the captain have just nailed it. Every single death should be worked as a homicide until you see differently.

Speaker 8 It doesn't matter if the person is elderly and they have a disease and you see a bunch of pill bottles, work it.

Speaker 4 Work it.

Speaker 8 If nothing else, it's going to be great training. It's a good training day.
But when you start to see something where you're like, okay,

Speaker 8 have you ever seen a suicide with 20 stab wounds to the head, neck, and chest?

Speaker 4 10 to her back and 10 to the back of the neck.

Speaker 8 Well, that's what I'm saying, the back of the neck, the head and the chest. In 44 years, if I tell you I've never seen it, suicide ain't coming to my mind yet.
I can promise you that. It's just not.

Speaker 8 So then I want to know,

Speaker 8 Where did this start? It starts with a 911 call. I want to hear it.
I want to hear that call while I'm standing in that apartment. You hear me?

Speaker 8 And when I hear a delayed mention of a knife, baby, let me tell you something.

Speaker 8 If it's a stranger and I'm walking through a subway and they are laying up against a wall with a knife protruding from their chest, that is coming out of my mouth.

Speaker 8 in the first two sentences, if not the first sentence. The fact that this man did not mention a knife is stuck in her chest first tells me something.

Speaker 8 And then he readily accepts she did it to herself.

Speaker 8 That should stop everybody.

Speaker 4 It's almost like he's setting up the narrative. He's saying, oh, I don't know what happened.
Oh, now I see a knife. She must have stabbed herself or maybe she fell on the knife.

Speaker 8 Captain, I can't agree with you more. How in the world is that the first thing you think?

Speaker 8 Again, with a a stranger, I wouldn't think it, much less somebody that I was in love with, living with, fixing to marry.

Speaker 8 The last thing I'm thinking, we are so happy is that she's done this to herself.

Speaker 4 And I almost feel like his demeanor is that he's comfortable with this situation, almost implying that he saw her in this position more than a couple times or more than a couple minutes in order to make this call.

Speaker 4 And I also think it's very strange if I'm having to break into my house and I see my partner hunched over with a knife,

Speaker 4 you'd think his body would go into some fight or flight mode and also protective mode of himself. Is there an intruder in here? And his mind seems to never go to that thought process.

Speaker 8 Never.

Speaker 8 He won't even let let law enforcement think it.

Speaker 8 He wants to tell them immediately, she did this to herself, which if that were my case, I would have worked it as the opposite were true until I could see different.

Speaker 8 So again, one of the things that really stuck out for me was when 911 is transferring the call, he's completely silent. Well, panic don't wait on a transfer.

Speaker 8 If you're panicked and you're like, honey, honey, or, you know, help or whatever he was mumbling and talking before should have been true through the transfer, but he was silent, waiting for the next person for him to say something.

Speaker 8 So there's a lot of flags with a 911 call. So you add that to no forced entry, but there was forced entry to why today,

Speaker 8 why that day, why that location. She didn't go to the bedroom.
She didn't go to the bathtub. She went to the floor and blocked him coming in.
Like none of that makes any sense to me at all.

Speaker 4 I had, when looking at this, I had just figured he goes down to the gym of the apartment building that they live in.

Speaker 4 And that was a way of him to, I need some time. Something just happened up there.
If he's responsible, it's obviously a very frenzied attack that not a lot of thought was put into it.

Speaker 4 I don't, if, if he is responsible, I don't know that he planned on doing this that day at that moment. Appears to be a frenzied attack to me.

Speaker 4 And then he goes down to the gym to collect his thoughts and, like the captain said, start to put together his narrative of: okay, I'm in a situation now.

Speaker 4 How do I fight my way out of this trap that I've put myself in? Because she's up there and she's dead, and that's not changing. And I have to sort out what is my next move here.

Speaker 4 Do I move her and get her out of here?

Speaker 4 Or do, or do I stage the scene to make it look like something else?

Speaker 8 And do I go down to the gym to take the shower to get the blood off of me? I don't know. But that's why I'm saying you work it like a homicide.
Did he have a locker downstairs?

Speaker 8 Did he have additional clothing?

Speaker 8 I mean, the text messages. When did he decide just to bust down the door when, you know,

Speaker 8 you've got folks that he's asking to come unlock the door, but they won't. I mean, the whole thing is just bizarre.
But again, that day in that moment while he's going to be gone a half hour.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think the planning, I think the planning took place before going down to the gym because I believe somebody locked that

Speaker 4 latch.

Speaker 4 I don't believe it was Ellen that locked the latch.

Speaker 8 And the other thing, and they haven't released a whole lot, but the knife handle

Speaker 8 is very telling. So it should have her palm print, her fingerprints on it.
If it doesn't, was it wiped clean? Is it just smeared prints that are now maybe DNA?

Speaker 8 But I don't know why they're not talking about that because it should have her all over it. But if it's been smeared and you don't have one decent print off there, I'd question that too.

Speaker 4 Cheryl, was there any defensive wounds?

Speaker 8 On him? No.

Speaker 4 No, I mean on

Speaker 4 Ellen.

Speaker 8 Well, I mean, I think when you're talking about that amount of bruising, how do you ignore that?

Speaker 8 Again,

Speaker 8 one bruise on a forearm may not be a defensive one.

Speaker 8 But when you have, what was it, 30?

Speaker 8 Yeah. How do you walk away from that going, oh, yeah.

Speaker 8 That's a suicide. I'm comfortable with that.
I don't know one expert, not one, that's comfortable with this case, except the two that have ruled it a suicide.

Speaker 8 Everybody else questions it. Everybody, from the crime scene to the 911 call, to where she was found, to the pre-imposed behavior, to the position of each injury, everybody is like,

Speaker 8 nah, baby, there's more to this story.

Speaker 4 There's more.

Speaker 9 Hi there, my name is Annie Elise, aka your true crime BFF and host of the podcast Serialously.

Speaker 9 I have been a true crime enthusiast forever, but I wished somebody would break down the cases for me like a friend, giving all the details and discussing every twist and turn.

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Speaker 9 So join me and let's talk all things true crime seriously with Annie Elise. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 4 How much do you think the first

Speaker 4 ruling

Speaker 4 does that box in any other future expert or person that has the ability to change the ruling?

Speaker 4 Does that box them in and create obstacles for that to be changed?

Speaker 8 I mean, if you're going against a peer and somebody you work with, you know, yeah, that could be difficult. But if you can factor in

Speaker 8 evidence that they weren't privy to, that is easier for people to accept. So, look, there's no note.
There's no text goodbye. There's no call to her mom beforehand.

Speaker 8 There's no giving away, you know, prized possessions. She didn't hug all her students goodbye.
Like, there's nothing that suggests she was going to go home and do this. She had forward plans.

Speaker 8 She had future things that were on a calendar, one being a wedding. So

Speaker 8 that day, in that moment, in such a short window,

Speaker 4 something

Speaker 8 beyond tragic had to have occurred for him to say, hey, honey, I'm going to go to the gym. When I get back, we'll have dinner and watch Yellowstone.
No, she decides to kill herself.

Speaker 4 Why?

Speaker 8 After a great day at school, all her friends at school said, no, it was a great day, normal day, nothing out of the ordinary. She wasn't accused of doing anything.
She didn't have police activity.

Speaker 8 She didn't have a parent complaining. There was no reason.

Speaker 8 Even he has said, no, we were good. Now she had some mental issues.
Okay, well, that's vague enough for people to run with it, but it's not clear enough to give a conclusion.

Speaker 8 that would satisfy me if this was my crime scene.

Speaker 8 There's a whole lot of people that suffer from different things and they don't hurt themselves and they don't hurt themselves on a great day, happy time

Speaker 8 with something

Speaker 8 that's coming up in the future that they're thrilled about.

Speaker 4 Well, and some people will cut their wrist or they will

Speaker 4 hang themselves or take pills. Yep.

Speaker 4 But to stab yourself over 20 times in the front and the back, and back to what you were saying with the slashes to the vertebrates, if the knife was sticking out of her neck, maybe that makes some sense because now we know, well, this is the final blow.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 4 But that wasn't the final blow. So then we have to even

Speaker 4 imagine if she did this to herself, can that damage be done? to somebody by themselves.

Speaker 8 Dr. Priya Banerjee says no.
And I'll tell you something, mark four inches on a knife knife and try to get it in a chicken and monitor the amount of force it takes you to get it into a chicken.

Speaker 8 And to think that's the last thing she did with that much force and effort after her vertebrae is damaged.

Speaker 4 But to play devil's advocate, sometimes suicide is spontaneous. It doesn't have to be a planned thing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's one thing we do try to remind our listeners about that unfortunately it can be an impulsive

Speaker 4 act.

Speaker 4 And here we actually see that somebody,

Speaker 4 I know that some folks would want to say that it was absolutely Ellen that did this, but there's no evidence to tell us exactly who, but

Speaker 4 there is evidence that somebody

Speaker 4 prior to this was searching on the internet for

Speaker 4 suicide methods and specifically painless suicide methods.

Speaker 8 Yeah, well, they failed there, I'll tell you.

Speaker 8 And here's the deal, too, just going back to the boys in the park. I don't know who did that, but they didn't select something that wasn't painful.

Speaker 8 And if you're talking about spontaneity,

Speaker 8 well, she beat the hell out of herself first. That wasn't too spontaneous.
I mean, some of the bruising, from what I understand, was in different stages. Yep.
So what is that about?

Speaker 8 And again, I understand

Speaker 8 that in moments of despair, when people are suffering from depression and other things, that it's this second, it's going to be this moment. I don't want to hurt anymore.

Speaker 4 I'm out.

Speaker 8 I get that.

Speaker 8 But even in those situations,

Speaker 8 the location of that body makes sense. They're in the woods.
They're in their bed. They're in the bathtub because they don't want to have to have the family clean up

Speaker 8 That's not the case here.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 8 So the totality is what I'm talking about.

Speaker 4 Speak to those bruises again because the reports are a little all over the shop with these bruises, but I've seen reports that say close to 30 bruises, some that say 20.

Speaker 4 At minimum, the least I could find that's consistent is saying that there were at least 11 or 12 bruises in various, as you said, stages, but they're at different parts of her body, her right arm, her abdomen, and her right leg specifically are noted in a lot of these reports.

Speaker 4 The thing is,

Speaker 4 she didn't stab herself 20 times and then live for a day or two or three afterwards. No, she would have died,

Speaker 4 regardless of who's responsible for those stab wounds. She would have died rather quickly.
Bruising from my lay brain doesn't happen very quickly.

Speaker 4 This is something that would have have occurred how much prior. And I know you've not seen these bruises with your own eyes, but

Speaker 4 take us down that road a little bit when we compare bruising to these stab wounds.

Speaker 8 Look, here's the bottom line. Your heart stops.
You don't bruise no mo.

Speaker 8 That's it. So for her to have any bruise, it was before she died.

Speaker 8 And between 20 and 30? Okay, let's say it's only 15. When is the last time, even if you played high school football, that you had 15 individual bruises all over your body? I have a sister.

Speaker 8 She recently fell down cement steps at work. I don't know that she had 15.
Now, she had some pretty good ones, but she didn't have 15. Do you understand?

Speaker 4 That's a lot.

Speaker 8 And you can't tell me, well, she was clumsy. Well, she was accident-prone.

Speaker 8 It sounds to me like somebody beat her. And I know how she died violently with repetitive stab wounds, repetitive bruising.
In my world, that's a pattern. Who would hit her multiple times?

Speaker 8 Who would harm her in multiple ways? Again, all of that you want me to accept

Speaker 8 was done by her?

Speaker 4 One of the things that you said was if you're investigating this case, you would want to be in that apartment listening to the 911 call. Right.

Speaker 4 Is there any other

Speaker 4 things that you would have done initially when looking at this crime scene?

Speaker 8 I would have gone in alone. I would not have asked anybody what we had.

Speaker 8 I want to hear what the caller said

Speaker 8 so that I understand

Speaker 8 what they saw.

Speaker 8 And then I would absorb every single thing. For example, when the operator is talking about CPR and he says, I can't, you can't? You can't even try to save her?

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 8 That's interesting. And then if he's talking about, I couldn't do this or I couldn't do that.
And then, you know, where I'm standing, does that ring true? Does that make sense?

Speaker 8 Right through that door, what would he have seen as soon as he busted through it? Is it accurate? Well, I can't know that if I'm not standing there. So that would be important to me.

Speaker 8 The other thing is when he says she's flat on her back, was she? I heard she was propped up on a cabinet. Well, again, both those things can't be true.
She fell on it. She fell on it.

Speaker 8 Why would he ever say that? How do you just walk through a kitchen and fall on your knife four inches into your chest, somehow flip yourself up to lean up over a cabinet?

Speaker 8 But he accepted that immediately. He accepted that she did it to herself on purpose.
He never once said, oh my God, somebody killed her, which is, I think, what anybody would think immediately.

Speaker 8 Somebody had to have done this. The person that I love wouldn't take their own life.
They wouldn't leave me. He readily accepts it.
She did it.

Speaker 4 Not to get too far into psychology here, but do you feel like that that in itself is

Speaker 4 to me, because it screams of

Speaker 4 someone that is an abuser, right?

Speaker 4 To, hey, not only am I going to, okay, I forced myself into this situation now where I have to create some kind of narrative that doesn't point the finger at me, but rather than go, oh my God, my girlfriend's been murdered.

Speaker 4 Somebody came into our home and killed my soon-to-be wife. No, he's saying she killed herself right out the gate, never says anything about potential murder.
Is that

Speaker 4 like

Speaker 4 a lot of times abusers believe that the person that they're abusing deserves it or is forcing them to abuse them?

Speaker 8 Well, they're certainly blaming the victim. I mean, it's her fault.
You made me so mad I had to slap you. You made me so mad I pushed you down the stairs.

Speaker 4 You did it. Sure.

Speaker 8 Because he doesn't give you just one explanation. He gives you two.

Speaker 4 In a 911 call, both are her fault.

Speaker 8 Either she did it to herself because she's got mental problems, or she's so ridiculous, she somehow fell and stabbed herself to death on a knife. Either way, it's her fault.
It ain't mine.

Speaker 8 That's all I can tell you. I didn't do it.

Speaker 4 She fell 20 sometimes on the knife. Yeah.
Officer, I didn't do it. That's a trick.

Speaker 8 I was in the gym. It's snowing.
It was snowing real bad.

Speaker 4 Do you think there's any thought process in the idea that he is setting up a narrative? So let's just assume for a second that he's guilty of this crime.

Speaker 4 He's setting up a narrative where he goes, Well, the door was locked and I wasn't here.

Speaker 4 So, one, he's distancing himself from the crime scene,

Speaker 4 but then when he says, Well,

Speaker 4 she must have stabbed herself, I would almost think that you would double down on that if you're guilty and go, Oh, yeah, well, she was

Speaker 4 she had some mental issues and she was suicidal, and and

Speaker 8 we did have some kind of argument or do you think that was a conscious decision to just try to be more vague i think sometimes it's difficult for people to lie twice when it's on the fly so instead of lying again about it he gives you a different version but both versions absolve him from any wrongdoing He doesn't say somebody must have broke in.

Speaker 8 He doesn't say, I don't know if they're still here. He doesn't say, how in the world, you know, y'all got to get here and help her.
He doesn't do that. So to me, that's a red flag.

Speaker 8 You don't walk away from.

Speaker 4 With first responders being on the scene as quickly as they were, how difficult is it to determine time of death? Because that would seem to clear things up very quickly in this case.

Speaker 8 Again, they relied on him.

Speaker 8 He says, I left at this time to go to the gym. I was there this amount of time.
I returned home. That's your winda.
That's your only winda.

Speaker 8 Now, if he killed her an hour or two before the gym, then went to the gym, then staged this whole thing, okay, that's going to be a little more difficult. The temperature is going to matter.

Speaker 8 Being inside is going to matter, all of that. But my issue.
For everybody that was at that scene, if you look at the reports, if you look at the news that came out, what did we know about her quick?

Speaker 8 We knew suicide. We knew mental issues.
She stabbed herself. That's what we were told because that's what they were told.
But that should not be

Speaker 8 in a report as though it is fact.

Speaker 8 Just like you don't know if that boy went home to have his mama's cooking or if he went down the road and was smoking weed.

Speaker 8 You don't know if the other one went home to be with his girlfriend because her parents weren't home or if he were kidnapped. You don't know.
All you know is what one person told you.

Speaker 8 They left about 30 minutes apart to go two different places. You don't know if they ever left the park.
I don't know that she killed herself. She didn't write a note.
She didn't call her mama.

Speaker 8 She didn't tell her friends. She didn't give things away.
Not that every suicide has to do that. My point is, I don't have evidence that she did that.

Speaker 8 I have a body with 20-plus stab wounds and approximately 25 plus bruises, and I have never in 44 years seen it. So I'm not going to accept it until I've got evidence to accept it.

Speaker 8 The stab wounds in the back, what trajectory were they at? Does that make sense? Can we put, you know, After everything is done and everything is swabbed, can we see exactly how they entered?

Speaker 8 Did she do it

Speaker 8 going upwards or downwards or from the side? You've got to explain to me how she managed to do that. Was it one-handed with two hands?

Speaker 8 Can I get a knife the exact same size and reach every one of those places myself?

Speaker 4 What's the length of her arm?

Speaker 8 I mean, I've got to know that. And let me just say this too for everybody listening.
I've worked a bunch of homicides and I've worked a bunch of suicides.

Speaker 8 Before you sit down with a mama and a daddy, you better know everything.

Speaker 8 You better be able to prove it to them 14 different ways that this is what happened.

Speaker 8 They are going to have a difficult time accepting this, even if the child has said they were going to do it,

Speaker 8 told them time and again they don't want to live, told them they were going to take their own life, it is still difficult.

Speaker 8 But if you have a child that has never said that, does not have depression to the point that it ever crossed your mind that they would harm themselves, you can't sit with them and go, um, yeah, you know, I'm so sorry this has happened.

Speaker 8 My condolences, but I've got, you know, 20 stab wounds and 30 bruises and she did it herself.

Speaker 8 That ain't gonna cut it, honey, at all.

Speaker 4 To your point, too, we don't have any,

Speaker 8 not only did she not leave a note or call her mama, but there's no previous history of her cutting herself or nope even a single stab nope and here's the other thing captain nick anybody that has planned a wedding you have to send deposit you have to choose what kind of cake what kind of stamp what kind of flatware what kind of glassware what color tablecloth what is your bouquet All of those things that she had done, every checklist.

Speaker 8 When is the last time she sent money to hold something when is the last time she met with somebody about photography or you know altern alternating her dress or whatever i want to know that because if you're going to tell me oh she sent a deposit two days before of two thousand dollars that's another flag on the play yeah and i think them being engaged

Speaker 4 actually maybe has more to do with this situation because if they are making these plans, they're spending money you know you could go well they're in a relationship they're living together he could easily just break up with her well

Speaker 4 sometimes for these psychopath guys

Speaker 4 the more entangled they get the more they don't just take the most easy logical doesn't won't hurt anybody way to just go hey I don't really want to get married to you and we're just got to call this off.

Speaker 4 And I think

Speaker 4 that plays into that. But also back to what Nick was saying about the time of death, we do have some digital communication that is being made from that apartment from her phone and computer.

Speaker 4 But have we done any analysis to figure out if that communication was similar to the way she communicated or that's right and see that's that's critical right captain because I have a daughter.

Speaker 8 She texts a very specific way when she's talking to me. About two months ago, she was painting.

Speaker 8 So she says to her boyfriend, tell my mom, whatever.

Speaker 8 I knew immediately she had not sent that text message. Because even though she said, tell her, we'll be leaving here about 5.30 and we'll meet in the parking lot.
That's not what he texted.

Speaker 8 He was like, be there at 5.30.

Speaker 4 Well, I knew that wasn't her.

Speaker 8 So again,

Speaker 8 what is the rhythm? How does she normally, you know, send things? Is it with an emoji or an exclamation point?

Speaker 8 Also, when he's not able to get into the apartment, his messages to her, the phone call, the text message, the banging on the door, whatever, how did it escalate? Did it escalate he's irritated?

Speaker 8 Did it escalate that he's really angry? Or did it escalate that he is super concerned? Well, if you can take concern out of it, that might be an answer.

Speaker 8 Because he didn't go downstairs and beg for help saying something's got to be wrong. She's either slipped in the tub or maybe she's had some type of emergency medical episode that I don't know about.

Speaker 8 That ain't what he did.

Speaker 4 Do you have a thought on why these investigators did such a poor job?

Speaker 8 I don't, but I'll tell you one more thing I would have done. I would have asked them which apartment is vacant.
I would take him to that apartment. I would go inside and latch it.

Speaker 8 I would have an officer outside and I'd tell him, break in.

Speaker 8 Same door, same amount of security. If he can't break in, that means maybe his door was open when he kicked that latch.
I just want to know, can he do it? Can he recreate it? Show me.

Speaker 4 Well, Well, one of the investigators said that there was no debris from

Speaker 4 a broken latch at the crime scene.

Speaker 8 Well, there's your answer.

Speaker 4 I did see pictures where the swing latch

Speaker 4 has been damaged enough and the screws pulled from the door enough that it would have made it possible for the

Speaker 4 for the door to be opened. And now I should say 100%, I don't know if that was based off of a recreation or if that was the actual swing latch for Ellen Greenberg's door.

Speaker 8 But you understand that's something her mom and dad should know. There should be no secrets here.
In order for them to accept it, every single thing should be told to them, shown to them.

Speaker 8 If they did not put him through, Show me how you did it. How many times did you run into the door with your shoulder or kick it or whatever he's claiming he did? Was there a footprint?

Speaker 8 Is there a scuff mark? All of those things, a boot print should be on there.

Speaker 4 Well, and at some point, too,

Speaker 4 you know, the investigators leave, right? At some point, they agree with what

Speaker 4 Sam is telling them and they leave. And what they do also is they leave him there at your scene.
That's right. So therefore, again, it goes back to it's always a homicide until it's not.

Speaker 4 It's always a homicide.

Speaker 4 And listen i heard that they quickly called crime scene cleanup so now there ain't no going back if you didn't get it it ain't there yeah we always say lazy or stupid and my issue with a lot of these cases that true crime podcasts gravitate towards are the ones that aren't investigated properly because if they are investigated properly, we have answers.

Speaker 4 And it's almost like these detectives didn't understand the oath.

Speaker 4 You're there to serve and protect. You're there to serve Ellen, but you're there to serve her family as well.
And

Speaker 4 by getting answers that's of service to them,

Speaker 4 it's so frustrating.

Speaker 8 Captain, I tell rookies all the time, if you do it quick and you cut corners, that case will never go away.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 8 this case ain't going nowhere. Nancy Grace has written a whole book about it.
There are podcasts about it. I think there's going to be a movie about it.
So

Speaker 8 they should have taken even an extra 30 minutes and worked it, worked the daylights out of it so that you can, with some authority, show everybody

Speaker 8 this is what happened.

Speaker 8 Now, if it's factual and the evidence pulls you to this conclusion, then again, that's something you should articulate where Joe Scott Morgan will accept it, where Nancy Grace will accept it, where Dr.

Speaker 8 Priya Banerjee will accept it. Well, that ain't been done here.

Speaker 8 So I can tell you it ain't going away. I don't know how many times somebody's going to say suicide.
It ain't going to change any of our minds.

Speaker 4 I got a two-part question for you. Okay.

Speaker 4 If you're investigating this case, are you questioning the fiancé at the apartment complex or are you taking him down to the station and would you give him a polygraph test?

Speaker 8 I already have his 911 statement, which is good. He's already locked in on that.

Speaker 8 Any spontaneous utterance at the apartment, anything that we're asking, you know, did you have a fight before?

Speaker 8 Is there a note? Is anything in the home missing? He's going to tell me, no, nothing's missing. Nothing's out of place.
There's no sign of a struggle.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 8 Then he goes downtown. Well, now he's locked into two statements.

Speaker 8 So that's how i would start the dance and what about giving him a polygraph test he's i mean that's up to him i mean usually when you get to that point he's going to say yes or no i understand that he's probably going to talk to somebody pretty quick and they're going to advise him not to do that but again at this point i would already have three statements i do want to uh echo something you just said here, Cheryl, about the telling the rookies, don't work the crime scene quick.

Speaker 4 A few years ago, I had the privilege of going to taking a CSI class. It was a three-day course, and I was the only civilian there.
Everybody else there

Speaker 4 was somebody that had worked CSI, was a detective, fingerprint analysis. It was voluntary reoccurring training.

Speaker 4 And the thing that really stood out to me that they were teaching there

Speaker 4 was they're telling folks that are experienced at crime scenes, that have been to multiple crime scenes, this ain't their first rodeo.

Speaker 4 It was certainly mine, but they're telling everybody else in the room, remember, you only get one shot at your crime scene. Amen.
We can't say it enough.

Speaker 4 You get one shot at this crime scene. You can only be there for the first time once.
So don't rush out of there. Don't think that you've done this a million times.
You've seen it all.

Speaker 4 You know what you're looking at right away. Do your due diligence.
You only get one shot at that crime scene. 100%.

Speaker 8 And listen, I'm still an active crime scene investigator. CSI is what I do for a living.
So not only do I preach that, I try to live that.

Speaker 8 I can get to a scene and it looks, you know, pretty A to B. You know, you've got a deceased person with a gun beside them and an obvious sign of struggle, whatever.
I'm going in that trash can.

Speaker 8 I'm going in that refrigerator. I'm going to go in that mailbox.

Speaker 4 I want the whole story.

Speaker 8 I'm going to go in that drawer next to your bed. Then I'm going to go in your closet and I'm going to look in that secret box that you don't think nobody knows there.

Speaker 4 I want the whole story. I know you got a big old Bible on your coffee table.

Speaker 8 There's more to you. And I need to know.
I need to understand the victimology.

Speaker 4 Who would want to hurt you?

Speaker 8 Who would be so frazzled by it they would leave a weapon behind? Who would tear the whole place up and not seemingly take anything?

Speaker 4 I want to know all of it.

Speaker 8 So I'm that person, when I start bagging and tagging stuff, I will have a detective say, why are you taking up that watted receipt? How does it fit? I don't know yet, but I'm not leaving it.

Speaker 8 If it don't fit, I ain't hurt the case at all. It's nothing.
But if it turns out that this is a sex shop that I didn't know about, or this is a bar that I'd never heard of. or this is some type of

Speaker 8 timeline factor that changes everything because receipts are solid gold information. They got an address, they got a name, they've got a date and time.

Speaker 8 All that's good. And then a lot of times it'll tell me what you purchased.
Now we're getting somewhere. I'll take it.

Speaker 4 I know you thought you're going into the garage today, but welcome to our sex shop.

Speaker 8 Can you imagine the merchandise? Y'all would be millionaires.

Speaker 4 The other part of that, though, too, is double check your work while you're at the crime scene because you can't return.

Speaker 4 I mean, you can return, but you're not going to find it the same way that you left it.

Speaker 4 If you pull

Speaker 4 a simple human mistake of, oh, the digital camera was missing the memory card at the time, or this wasn't done correctly, or I wish I could have done this again.

Speaker 4 No, double-check your work while still at the crime scene before you leave. And

Speaker 4 the great thing about crime scenes today,

Speaker 4 in comparison to in decades past,

Speaker 4 we live in the digital age.

Speaker 4 You know, there was a time in this great country that we had jurisdictions that are investigating a homicide and they're showing up and they're paying $10 for flash bulbs on cameras.

Speaker 4 Or they're working a crime scene with a Polaroid camera. You know, you can show up to a crime scene today and take as many pictures and as much video as you want.

Speaker 4 It costs the department nothing.

Speaker 8 Nothing. nothing other than your time absolutely and nick i worked for a da this was 20 something years ago that to save money would only buy black and white film

Speaker 8 and then we get mad if you took more than 10 pictures okay

Speaker 4 so

Speaker 8 what you just said i think is one of the greatest benefits that has come out of having a digital camera Take 10,000 pictures. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 8 And there is a phenomenon I will tell your listeners about. I've never studied it.
I've never heard anybody, you know, explain it that's got a PhD. I can just tell you it happens.

Speaker 8 I can take pictures in a 360 manner or what I have come to develop, a 361 way of doing it. And if I even take a break and go sit in my car for a second, I will flip through those pictures.

Speaker 8 I will see something on that camera I did not see in person. It's weird, but it happens.
I take a picture of the whole dining room table, and let's say it's junked up with stuff.

Speaker 8 And then I take a picture of a side table, and it's junked up with stuff. Somehow I missed a matchbook, or somehow I missed a small crack bag.
It's happened.

Speaker 8 And then I go back in, there it is, put my marker on it, add it to my list, and then I review pictures again. But I do that before I leave.

Speaker 4 Well, I understand that with most crimes, it seems like the simple answer is normally the correct answer.

Speaker 4 So in this case, you go, well, if the door was locked, fiancé's not there, it's most likely a suicide. But because they only investigated it as such, they didn't look for foreign fingerprints or DNA.

Speaker 4 And Derek Levasser.

Speaker 4 on a podcast recently was talking about this case and he was talking about

Speaker 4 a crime that the BTK committed

Speaker 4 where a guy and girl go on a date. He takes her back home.

Speaker 4 I can't remember if the guy went into the house or not, but after some time period, he leaves and BTK was hiding in a closet, comes out, kills her.

Speaker 4 Then obviously, if you're an investigator looking at the case, you're going to go, well, if she was murdered, she's probably murdered by the last person she was with, which would have been her date.

Speaker 4 So, if they would have investigated this as a murder first,

Speaker 4 then you have to start questioning not just the fiancé, but everybody in that building. And also,

Speaker 4 did she have another

Speaker 4 partner outside of the relationship? Did he have another partner outside the relationship? Because there could be a scenario here where it's not suicide.

Speaker 4 It's not murder by the fiancé, but it's still a homicide by somebody else. Right.

Speaker 8 And I love Derek Lavasser. He has been so generous.

Speaker 8 He has worked with me on a couple of cases of mine where, you know, just being able to sit down and talk through a case, you know, you'll all of a sudden think of something just having that, you know, backboard.

Speaker 4 So he's fantastic. He also smells good.

Speaker 8 He does.

Speaker 4 He absolutely does. He smells delicious.
He does. He does.

Speaker 8 And he's fun, you know.

Speaker 8 But, you know, to me, yes that happened with btk no doubt and that was again super violent but there was a sexual assault here you don't have a sexual assault so anytime you have a case that is highly violent and just vicious with no sexual assault you ask yourself okay people are only killed for three reasons sex, money, and revenge for the most part.

Speaker 8 Now, there's a fourth one, and that's just when somebody's crazy. But crazy, you can pretty much come up with pretty quickly.

Speaker 8 But if this isn't about money and she wasn't sexually assaulted, it was somebody mad at her. Well, your suspect poll gets shrinked pretty good.

Speaker 4 Back to the crime scene as well.

Speaker 4 I had talked with a retired FBI agent, and there was a serial homicide offender. on the loose in the early 90s in the Chicago area.

Speaker 4 And together we were taking a look at one of the crime scenes, and he

Speaker 4 showed me three Polaroids from one of the homicide scenes. One was

Speaker 4 a set of stairs that had some blood on it that was leading up to the location where the body was found. There was a picture of the body as it was discovered

Speaker 4 covered by a like old dirty blanket, and then a picture of the victim, the rotting corpse that was lying partially under this blanket, now fully exposed in this last picture.

Speaker 4 He says to me, Nick, I want you to take a look at these and tell me what evidence you see and also if you have any questions.

Speaker 4 And I said, before we get to the evidence, my first question is, why aren't there more pictures? And he goes, exactly. He goes, that's the problem.
We're handed this case by Chicago PD.

Speaker 4 We get three Polaroids from a homicide seed. He goes,

Speaker 4 unless it's something that they captured in one of these three pictures, we got very little to work with.

Speaker 4 And this, to me, is you do your due diligence, even if you're going into this place and you walk away thinking it is a suicide. Where's the pictures of

Speaker 4 Samuel's fingers, of his hands, of his forearms? Of his clothing. Of his clothing.

Speaker 4 And then to

Speaker 4 hone in on something that you had said early. in our conversation here, Cheryl, and the captain touched on it as well.

Speaker 4 What I'm also not hearing in a lot of these reports or seeing in these, a lot of these reports is an investigation that took place outside of the four walls of their apartment. Absolutely.

Speaker 4 You have this whole building that is, that's your crime scene. Your crime scene isn't just their apartment, it's this entire building.
Do the three of us agree?

Speaker 4 I mean, the latch, the swing latch on the door is essentially his alibi.

Speaker 4 There is a report that there was activity on her laptop within 60 to 90 seconds after he's seen on surveillance about the same time he's entering the gym.

Speaker 4 So he would have already made his way downstairs and now he's entering the gym and there was some activity on her laptop at that time.

Speaker 4 I don't know exactly what that activity is, but it's only stated as activity. So those two things would be his alibi in support the story that she was alone in that apartment at the time.

Speaker 4 But do the three of us agree that whatever happened,

Speaker 4 if she did not kill herself, if she didn't stab herself 20 times, do we agree that it happened before

Speaker 4 445 when he's seen entering the gym? Because there are a few folks that I've talked to and said, well, he could have come back up there, bust down the door, and then killed her. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And there's also a lot of missed reporting. Like at some point, law enforcement reports that he came back up with the security guard.

Speaker 4 Well, that's a big difference of situation because now you have somebody

Speaker 4 essentially an alibi. But if I'm investigating this, I'm testing the bathroom drain for blood.
Yep. And I'm testing the

Speaker 4 gym drain for blood as well.

Speaker 8 100%.

Speaker 8 That's why I said that he'd go to the gym to get the blood off of him. Part of the thing is, you know, you've got a security guard.
You've got cameras somewhere on the outside or in the lobby.

Speaker 8 You've got the latch, allegedly. So you're pretty much letting me accept that somebody, stranger, didn't come in and out of there unseen.
They don't have the fire escape.

Speaker 8 I mean, how did this person get in and out, right?

Speaker 8 But with him,

Speaker 8 we don't have what I would like to have. So remember Drew Peterson when his wife, Kathleen, was found in the dry bathtub? He went and got a neighbor.
The neighbor's the one that called 911.

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 8 was the fiancé going to get the security guard so the security guard could find her? I don't know.

Speaker 4 I want that answered.

Speaker 8 Why wouldn't they go with him? Why wouldn't the super or whoever come up and help unlock the door?

Speaker 4 I don't know.

Speaker 8 Did they not believe him or did he not try to get them? I don't know. They haven't released enough so that I can make the right call.

Speaker 8 I'm saying though, you've got two parents that are going to burn through every dime they have to get justice for their child because they don't accept it.

Speaker 8 You have got a slew of experts that are well respected, that understand crime and crime scenes, that understand autopsies, that understand suicide that have not accepted this.

Speaker 8 So There needs to be more done on the front end. And this should be one of those cases,

Speaker 8 just like Karen Reed is one of those cases, just like O.J. Simpson is one of those cases.

Speaker 8 If you want to show law enforcement how 10 years of their life can be wrapped into something where somebody at the grocery store thinks they screwed it up,

Speaker 8 here you go. So you better take one more second, 10 more minutes, another hour.

Speaker 8 before you walk out and feel confident that you're looking at a suicide when somebody comes to you as a police detective and says, detective, a couple questions.

Speaker 8 Have you ever seen a suicide of a female with 25 plus stab wounds? Yes or no?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 8 Have you ever seen a suicide of a female with 25 plus stab wounds that also had 25 plus bruises?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 8 Nothing further. You ain't seen it.
Then why are you putting that on the the front page of the paper? Because you can't articulate how you got there.

Speaker 4 And as you said earlier, what is the trajectory of those stab wounds to the back?

Speaker 8 I would have to know that. I would have to know why that handle of that knife ain't got her fingerprint on it.

Speaker 4 I was blessed with these long ass monkey arms. And I'm telling you, I could, as the confirmation that we received in October of this year.

Speaker 4 in a 32-page report by the chief medical examiner stating that reaffirming the original ruling that Ellen Greenberg died by suicide, but the trajectory of those would mean a whole hell of a lot because I could physically reach behind me and stab myself in the back.

Speaker 4 I physically could do that. But if that blade was any longer

Speaker 4 than half an inch or one inch, and I got some long arms,

Speaker 4 it would be coming in at an angle and not straight up or down.

Speaker 8 That's what I'm saying. Why won't they release it? If you're so confident, tell me how you got there.
At least sit with her mama and daddy and say, look at this. Like take an ink pen.

Speaker 8 Did she go in from the side? Because everybody likes to show like from the top of the head all the way down. It doesn't have to be that.
It could be from the side. But the angle would tell you that.

Speaker 8 I want to know that. How did that knife go in her?

Speaker 8 And at what depth? And at what interval? Because it's just not adding up to me the way they've played it, you know. But, you know, y'all,

Speaker 8 I'm going to say again, if there's any young officers or young detectives, this is your nightmare when you don't spend eight hours somewhere. It's what's going to happen.

Speaker 8 Did you look in the trash can? Maybe she had written a note, changed her mind because it wasn't good enough, and watered it up and put it in the trash can.

Speaker 8 But you're going to look and say, oh, they looked up suicide that ain't painful. And then she picked one of the most painful things ever.

Speaker 8 I cannot imagine being stabbed in the back of my neck between vertebrae.

Speaker 4 How bad that must hurt.

Speaker 8 And she didn't even lose consciousness. She just kept right on going.

Speaker 4 Well, trash can. Did you check the

Speaker 4 trash can that would have been at the

Speaker 4 ground level floor or possibly the basement level floor? Because I worked in a high-rise building for many years.

Speaker 4 Every floor and every corridor had a trash trash chute and if i have bloody clothes bloody items that i need to get out of that apartment without me leaving the actual building that's going to be i'm going right to that trash chute and i'm throwing those items down there and they'll be they'll be sent right into to a dumpster yeah did they check her trash can at school did they check her school computer And like you said earlier, Cheryl, did he have a locker in that gym?

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 8 Did he take a duffel bag with him that never came back up?

Speaker 4 And it's just such a shame because we sit here with all these questions still to this day. Her parents have, and her loved ones have far more questions than we ever will have.
Right. But the

Speaker 4 ruling that they get last month in October of 2025 in this report by the chief medical examiner is basically saying, look, we admit that the distribution of injuries here is unusual.

Speaker 4 It's a little strange, but we have found that she would have been capable of inflicting these injuries herself.

Speaker 4 So it's almost like because it could have happened, we are going to say that it did happen. We're going to reaffirm that it did happen.
And then going another step further to saying that, oh, the

Speaker 4 injury to her spinal cord, because that was a big issue too, of like, well,

Speaker 4 there were some experts saying that injury to her spinal cord would have had to have been the last injury if she was harming herself because she would no longer be capable of harming herself.

Speaker 4 That's what Dr. Banerjee said.
Yep. Exactly.
And then they say, and we know, here's what we do know, that knife sticking out of her chest, that's the last wound.

Speaker 4 That would stand a reason that that would be the last inflicted wound. So if that spinal cord injury happened prior to the knife sticking out of her chest, then she didn't kill herself.

Speaker 4 But again, now they're saying, well, that could have been accidentally done during the course of her autopsy procedure.

Speaker 4 And it's, it's because it could have happened, we're going to say that it did happen.

Speaker 8 And that's where the real shame comes in. Because again, if you do not have evidence, I don't want to hear about a theory.
I don't want to hear about it coulda.

Speaker 8 It's possible if all of these things line up that this happened. The evidence that we have, that we know occurred, does not lead anybody to suicide.

Speaker 8 There's at least, I think, four stab wounds that would have rendered her unable to complete the last stab wound to her chest with that much strength. I think she would have already been passing out.

Speaker 8 I think she would have been losing consciousness. I think she would have been losing strength.
But

Speaker 8 here we are.

Speaker 4 Here we are, Cheryl. And hey, you are an absolute delight.
We thank you so much for joining us here today.

Speaker 4 You got to go on a double date with two garage guys. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.

Speaker 8 It is the highlight of my week, if not my year. I can tell you that.
I have enjoyed y'all at Crime Con.

Speaker 4 Y'all are fun.

Speaker 8 Y'all are smart. Y'all are gifted in many, many ways.
And I just want to say,

Speaker 8 when y'all set up at CrimeCon,

Speaker 8 y'all are swarmed from day one to the very last minute. Your fans are second to none.
They adore y'all for all the right reasons. And it's just a joy to watch.

Speaker 8 I'll tell you, I've sat across from y'all more than one time going, good Lord, look at all them people. And it's just wonderful.

Speaker 8 And what y'all have put together and what y'all have done again for a decade. Because I don't know that people really understand.

Speaker 8 You've got to think of something fresh. You've got to think of a different way of doing it.
You've got to deliver every day.

Speaker 8 And y'all have done it flawlessly for a decade. That's

Speaker 4 pretty remarkable. Well, what else is absolutely wonderful is your podcast, Zone 7.
Everybody should go check it out.

Speaker 4 Before we release you from the garage here, Cheryl Mac, give us one or two of your favorite episodes. that you've been able to cover so far.

Speaker 8 Well, I guess one would have to be 9-11

Speaker 8 because during 9-11, I was sent to the Pentagon and my sister was diverted to Gander.

Speaker 8 And there was a constable in Canada that made sure she was safe and had some fun while she was stranded there.

Speaker 8 So the good people of Gander have been kind of a remarkable story in my life. So I say that one and

Speaker 8 the Olympic Park bombing because I was in charge of the crisis response team, which nobody would have ever known or cared about, except we had a bomb.

Speaker 8 And, you know, what kind of transpired there for me was pretty career changing.

Speaker 8 And, you know, the love and

Speaker 8 just devotion that I have to Fallon, whose mother, Alice Hawthorne, was killed in that blast, is something that means a lot to me. And then I would say the last one is probably Melissa Wolfenberger.

Speaker 8 And I have just written a book about that case because it it was so crazy that this has never happened in history, y'all, that a serial killer becomes a true victim of crime when his daughter is brutally murdered and he reached out to law enforcement and then reached out to me for help solving his daughter's murder.

Speaker 8 So that book is called Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer.

Speaker 8 And that phrase I learned from Nancy Grace back in the day, because we were driving around all the trap houses and crack houses looking for a victim that if she didn't make it to court, this guy was going to walk out.

Speaker 8 And the rookie driving us around all these places was getting a little irritated that we were just going to one horrible situation after the other looking for her.

Speaker 8 And he's like, why in the world are we doing this? You know, why don't we go look in better places? And Nancy was trying to explain to him, where do you think she's going to be?

Speaker 8 She's a crackhead that is our victim and she was brutally attacked. But if we don't find her, this person is going to be out there to hurt again.

Speaker 8 And she said, swans don't swim in a sewer. Of course, we have to go to pimps and drug dealers and other violent people.

Speaker 8 So in order to try to help solve this case, I had to use a killer to catch a killer.

Speaker 4 Incredible. Amazing.
Thanks again for joining us here in the garage today. And we look forward to it.
Hey, let's do it again. And we'll see you at the next Crime Con.

Speaker 8 I appreciate it so much and y'all call on me anytime.

Speaker 4 I want to thank everybody so much for joining us here in the garage each and every week. Make sure you check out TrueCrimeGarage.com, Pick up some merch.
Treat yourself.

Speaker 4 Colonel, do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners? We're going to do a little recommended listening, a little recommended viewing this week. We're going to double down.

Speaker 4 First off, of course, go and listen to Zone 7. It's a fantastic podcast.
You'll be smarter for doing so.

Speaker 4 And that is a tip of the cap to our good friend. Cheryl Mac McCollum, who joined us here today in the garage.
For the first time, it won't be the last time.

Speaker 4 And recommended viewing, go to YouTube on the search bar, type in Captain Fat Hands. I think you know who he is.
Check out his YouTube page, his YouTube channel.

Speaker 4 Subscribe so you don't miss all of the great stuff that he's doing there.

Speaker 4 If you like good music, if you like cool little videos that go along with it, that is a great channel to follow Captain Fat Hands on YouTube.

Speaker 4 And you can find both of those great recommendations, along with all of our other recommendations on our recommended page. That's on our website, TrueCrimeGarage.com.

Speaker 4 Hey, it's only my seventh channel, so maybe this one will stick. Until next week, be good, be kind, and don't worry.

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