NCAA Soccer with guest Rob Dow, Head Coach at the University of Vermont

I went to Leverkusen and the first day I was there, nobody passed me the ball.

I'm like, why are they not passing me the ball at 16 years old?

And he goes, why would they want you to succeed?

That versus college environment, totally different.

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Timmy, we're back, Back at it. For everyone's

knowledge, we are recording this on Valentine's Day. Yeah, we are.
You got plans tonight? I am going to go to dinner and then I'm going to be in bed because I have to be up at 3.30 a.m. for a studio.
So it's going to be more like a lunch than it is dinner. Fair enough.

You?

Kiddos?

No, kiddos don't exist today.

We're going to be more like a lunch than a dinner. Okay.
Fair enough. You? Get the kiddos? No, kiddos don't exist today.
We're going to a spa, getting massages, going to dinner. So I'm not a big fan of these made-up holidays, but to get away from the kids, I'll do anything.
Did you get away from the kids when you were skiing, or you brought them with you? No, we took them with us. Are they any good? It was good? Yeah.
Kids get good fast. Yeah, quick, man.
It's amazing. I'm scared of death to ski.
Because they're like, their learning curve is so steep. So like once they get it, bang, they go.
Yeah. They're so good.
It was good. Happy Valentine's Day, bud.
You too, bud. All right.
Follow us, as always, Unfiltered Soccer. Be sure to subscribe to the show on YouTube.
Wherever you get your podcasts podcasts you can follow make sure um if you like what we're doing leave a comment review us it helps other people find the show you can also email us at feedback at unfiltered soccer timmy we've got a special guest today we do a special guest because so many of the topics that we want to dig into on on this show and unfiltered is um is people want to hear, you know, and that's youth soccer and MLS and U.S. Men's National Team and Women's National Team.
But NCAA soccer is a big conversation, a big deal in this country. And we are delighted, absolutely delighted to have with us today the head coach of the University of vermont ncaa national champions men's soccer team rob dow so honored that you are here with us we have a thousand things we want to ask you and dig into um but no rest for the wicked because you had a newborn son during that ncaa tournament run talk to us welcome thanks guys thanks for having me you guys are talking about your Valentine's day plans while I'm changing diapers and going to bed early.
I think that's the best. I think you win.
I get it. Rob, first question.
So I made a conscious decision during my career not to have any children while I was playing. You either made a conscious decision to have a child right during an NCAA tournament run or accidentally had a child during.
What's it like when you are, I think it was right before your third round match. All of a sudden now you've got a phone call from your significant other saying we're about to have a baby.
Can you walk us through that? Yeah, we had plenty of doctor's appointments weekly. That's how it goes.
And right after Hofstra, we won. We were actually hoping that we would host San Diego, which would have made the process a lot easier.
Anyway, we went into the doctor's office on Tuesday after Hofstra on Sunday and said,

can we do this thing?

And then we're like, well, I think we can induce.

There's signs to do that.

But that didn't work.

And I'm about to get on a plane on Thursday on Thanksgiving to San Diego.

And that morning, my son, Russell William Dow was born.

Wow.

Just in time.

Wow.

So you actually did get to see. You were there.
Yeah. And then you had to get on a plane and leave.
Yes. Which I'm sure went over really well in your household.
Super popular. See you later.
When I think about the universe of Vermont and the heights that you've achieved there, I think it's always important to unwind that and start to come back a little bit. Talk to us a little bit about your journey in getting to the University of Vermont because it doesn't always start at the top.
Yeah, I think I had some unique experiences of coaching at every level in the college game. NEI, Division III, Division II, Division I, junior college in my first head coaching position.
But when we first arrived at Vermont, I think we were ranked somewhere in the 120, 130s in our RPI. And from there, it was assistant coach, helped us get to the NCAA tournament, raised the visibility of the program in the national level.
but over the last four years, we've done something that I think might take away a little bit of the Cinderella story, you know, being in the NCAA tournament each of the four years, advancing to the round of eight and 22, round of 16 and 23. And so we were building something where we really felt like we believe, uh, the national championship was a possibility.
Yeah. I think it's, it's hard.
Um, you know, what you talk about there is consistency. And when I look at the game of soccer, I mean, you could talk about other sports, but there's different mechanisms in soccer.
I think it's, it's almost easier to just have a, an amazing season, the Cinderella season and just win. It's a lot harder to consistently be in the final eight,

final four,

because that's when,

you know,

and I always use the example of Arsenal.

Arsenal hasn't won a Premier League title yet,

but they're finishing second,

finishing second.

Eventually that's going to put them over the hump.

It's so much easier to have this one-off success.

I mean,

the building,

the building part of it must be really difficult though in college soccer. It is, especially when you get into like a tournament, so many, so many, uh, members with, you know, it's, it's cup game format and, um, in football, you know, we know that the margins are so small in terms of being successful at getting through.
Um, but I think like some of the some of the momentum that came from this season was believing we can win in all different ways, whether it was PKs, down a goal, a PK in overtime, coming back from deficits. But yeah, the building of consistency comes from what your program is built on.

And we've had more talented teams in the past, but what we've always prioritized is the intangible talents of work ethic, resiliency, mental toughness, prioritizing the locker room, these types of things, the culture of your team.

And this year, we were the most talented in that area.

We had eight or nine guys deep, which were really, really top leaders in those areas.

Rob, can you... things in the culture of your team.
And this year we were the most talented in that area. We had eight or nine guys deep, which were really, really top leaders in those areas.

Rob, can you help us understand? So we were talking before the show, my family grew up very close to where you're from in Nova Scotia, Canada, and probably every one of our listeners is like, where the hell is that? So far east end of the earth in North America is Nova Scotia, a province in Canada. And you grew up in Coal Harbor.
My family grew up a little further north on Cape Breton. My dad's family from there.
How does a person who presumably grew up with hockey and a hockey stick in their hand end up in the soccer world? How did that come about? It was a really good question. Um, you know, I was playing soccer in the summertime to keep in shape, uh, as a hockey player and somewhere around the, you know, I was 13, 14 years old.
I started getting a little bit better at soccer and might've made a national team pool once when I was 17 years old in Canada, but I had this really great coach growing up. His name was Stephen Hart.
And he was from Trinidad and Tobago. And he came to Halifax from Trinidad.
And he coached the senior men's national team eventually for Canada and for TNT. But a huge mentor of mine.
And really in any like major step in my game or my coaching

career, he was a part of it. And what did that make you want to then get into coaching? Is that

how that? I just want to stay in football. You know, it wasn't good enough of a player to do it

long, long term. But, you know, as a coach, you know, you quickly realize it's not about you and

it's all about everyone else. That was certainly a hard transition, you know, you quickly realize it's not about you and it's all about everyone else.
Um, that was certainly a hard transition, you know, in my early years, but, um, you know, you live vicariously through these guys and it's the best you can do it until you're 70. So why not? Rob, I think, um, you know, when, when, when we were talking about having you on, uh, on the show, soccer junkies like myself and Landon and all of our, our listeners, take us inside the, give us a synopsis of the season, right? You, you, it ends, it ends with a championship, but there are so many, you start preseason in August and then there's all these highs and lows and peaks and valleys.
Um, and without giving us one particular moment where you just thought it was going to be an incredible season, take us on the journey of what those couple months looked like over the next couple of minutes. Yeah, look, we went into preseason.
We do this trip every year to the mountains in Vermont. There's a couple of turf fields on top of a mountain, which is really cool.
It's called J Peak Resort. But no one's there.
It's just the team. And it's funny.
I, um, I got concussed the day before we left first day of preseason. I got dehydrated, fell down some stairs, um, non-alcohol related, I promise.
Um, and, uh, I was, I was concussed for the first two weeks of preseason. And so I had no idea what happened, but something was going right.

And my staff did a great job, but it just showed the amount of leadership and experience that was in the group. but injuries, you know, we come off these, these really this long season of multiple seasons,

whether it's our spring season, USL two seasons into the college season. And we really need to be conscious about, you know, peaking at the right point.
Well, we inherited some serious injuries in the team. Fortunately, we had depth.
But if you look at the first part of our season, it was extremely rocky, whether it was a loss or Western Michigan crushed us day one of the season. So getting through that, constantly plugging holes, constantly plugging holes, which is super stressful as a coach.
And then we finally got to the point where, okay, this seems like this is going to be the strongest team we can get based on our health. And had some good results, but became complacent at that same time.
And I remember playing against UMass. UMass had an amazing season as well.
They're extremely underfunded. And they overachieve every year, in my opinion.
But we played them at home, and it was a really big RPI game. And we noticed that their top striker, Alec Hughes, was out for the game.
And we went down 2-0 early in the match. And it's just like, guys, this is an opportunity for us to, I think, solidify ourselves in the national rankings.
And we came back from the 2- Dillon deficit. We tied, had a really good performance in the second half, but enough to say like, hey, this is what we're capable of in the second half.
We need to start games better. We need to hold ourselves accountable to that.
And had a long conversation on the field for about 40 to 45 minutes while all the parents are waiting in the post know in the post-game meal you know looking to hug their kids i was i was giving them the hair dryer um but uh other guys stepped up and i was in that conversation um you know my assistant brad who played for the program told him what it meant to wear the jersey um and you know was really honest with the the guys that uh were not living up to it you know this is not the standard this is not what it's going to take to win a national championship let alone a merrick east championship so coming off of that we really ascended you know into the direction where um we uh we raised the bar and held ourselves accountable to national championship performances. Rob, can you walk us through some, you're talking about guys that you have that are leaders and can you, a lot of our, a lot of people who listen to the show probably aren't super familiar with the collegiate world, right? They follow their professional team or the APL or the national team.
Can you walk us through how do you recruit players to go to Vermont? You have a lot of international players as well. Yeah, right.
30 to 35% of our team is. Right.
So you would think kids want to know if they're international, they know New York and they know LA and they know Chicago and Florida. But how do you convince them, I guess, to go to Vermont? The initial conversation is hard, but once we get our prospects around our team, it's really easy.
The culture in our team is, everyone know everyone says family a brotherhood but it's authentic and um when we connect a prospect to uh our group um our uh our current players are interviewing the prospect more than the prospects interviewing um Love that. The team.

And so the follow-up conversation is,

do you want this guy as your teammate?

And it's great in our recruiting.

We've got to expand our network,

and there's always a connection through somebody to somebody on a recruit.

And we just ask, do you want this guy in the locker room?

And I think we start building a team

that wants to be around each other. Now, the beauty of that, Rob, is that you now, you know, if you do that from the beginning and you're not successful, people are like, well, you don't get to just choose who you want to be there.
But now that you've had success, now you say, okay, you don't fit into what we're doing, then you can go somewhere else and we're fine we're gonna be fine oh i wish that was still a case at vermont um we're still gonna have

to recruit hard i think we haven't signed maybe we signed one player i think since the national

championship for the 2025 class and we've got another nine that we need to sign um but the late game is our game um and uh which is great you know around the the pro um atmosphere of guys getting released whether it's here or abroad but right that's going to work for us um but yeah it's like you get them you get them in your team you get them around your University of Vermont's a beautiful campus. It's a great school.
But you play your strengths on it, right? So we're not in Boston, right? So we're not in New York. There's a lot of other distractions in these urban areas.
Our team leans on each other and they do everything together. You know, we had two seniors, fifth year seniors came back for the COVID year who bought meal plans on their own to be able to eat on campus with our freshmen and sophomores.

Because when they were freshmen, they came in in a COVID world and weren't allowed to leave their dorm room.

And they felt like they didn't have a connection with their seniors. So they wanted to change that and get to know the group.
And that was one of the things that I think bonded ourselves, our team together pretty tight. Yeah.
Well, one of the things I want to touch on with the COVID year as an example, but let me just give a big shout out to what you're doing. I think when I look at the University of Vermont, you're not supposed to be there.

And I mean that respectfully.

I think back to a guy who I think is a brilliant coach, Caleb Porter.

And probably a decade ago, he did the same thing at Akron.

Akron is a small program.

They shouldn't be on a national stage.

It's about UCLA and Maryland and Indiana.

And he turned things upside down.

And I think what you're doing at Vermont and what they're doing at Marshall,

I mean, they're, they're, they're turning heads in, in a big way because when you look at these schools, you're actually not supposed to be in that conversation, but, but you're, you're pushing yourself not only into the conversation, but, but to the top of the, of the class. So I think it's incredible what you're doing.
I, doing. I guess when you talk about, and you give us the example of those two seniors, right? 50 are coming back, buying their own meal plan.
I see so many colleges, so many universities struggling to build that legacy at their school because of the transfer portal, right? And I think the transfer portal has amazing pluses and amazing minuses, right? One of the negatives is kids aren't staying at the same school for four years, right? So by the time you're used to having seniors put their arm around freshmen, they're not there anymore because it's a kid who's coming from another school. How important is the transfer portal to you in terms of bringing players in, but also how does it hurt the program? Yeah, I think we hit a success at the, at our program's highest level, uh, in 2022 at the right time when the portal was really taking, uh, fire.
And, uh, so we got some top players, um, at that time and, uh, we could have been on the other end and constantly trying to catch up in this way to retain our guys. But it's about the people, right? So it's always about the people.
And if your team, you know, you guys have been on plenty of teams. And do you want to show up and train every day with these guys? Do they give you energy or or do they take energy and when you can accumulate this group where you know the team can think of the guys can think about the team first um and themselves seconds then it creates an atmosphere where people want to be you know stay now beyond the culture standpoint um we're continuing to try and recruit experience and known quantities in the transfer portal.
But it's going to go beyond or it's already gone beyond success. Now it's about money into this NIL and revenue sharing world, which we'll have to exist in here really quick.
We've lost guys already in this uh, to offers that we couldn't compete with, but it's our decision now to either stand still and, um, talk about how great 2024 was for years or, you know, continue the success and exist in this, um, competitive financial world and college sports. Yeah.
Collegiate athletics doesn't, doesn't exist anymore. It's basically professional division two, you know, with some academics thrown in.
And is that, Rob, that is now, this is an ignorant question, but that is really seeping into soccer as well now? Like players are getting offered money now to go to other schools? Yes. You're not getting the million dollar signing bonus as they might want to compare it to, but it's somewhere between $5,000 and $25,000.
Wow. Which is significant for a lot of these kids.
Yeah, of course it is. And to some extent you can't blame them, but I like what you're doing is you're saying, look, you either want to be here or you don't.
If $5,000 is going to convince you, then you can go somewhere else. You're right.
At some point, do you believe, I'm using smaller schools in quotes, but not a national perennial powerhouse like Vermont, are you going to have to now start playing in that game? Yes, we'll have to start playing and well i think we're about to play in that game you know we're probably a week fresh of starting to think of those ideas and this guys this is on top of a full scholarship right on top of cost of attendance on top of alston money yeah you know which is already,000 to $9,000 of money in which a student athlete can pocket. I just went through the recruiting process with my daughter.
We know all about the Alston money when that comes on the table. Well, listen, I think you're in a fantastic position to have that conversation, right? You've just won the national championship.
Get all those i've got a dear friend mitch dechter who played at the program and i'm sure he'll be putting some money into the program pony up mitch i'd love to talk to mitch mitch me me you and rob are gonna get on a call but i no i think it's it's where it's where the the sport is going and as you said it's if it's a different if five000 is a difference, as Landon mentioned, of keeping one of your better players, that has to happen. That's part of the business side of it.
I'm also curious. I know a couple of your players in the summer play in USL League 2.
Is that something you encourage? Do you want more of your players to do that, if possible, just to continue to get high-level games? We do. It's great for our younger guys, specifically.
And I think we want to have our older guys playing. But maybe in teams where there's lots of depth where we can have a meaningful preseason, where we're not just fully resting guys.
But we've got a great team in town that plays at our stadium, Vermont Green. I know that name's gone around the country, maybe world, about their philosophy and what they stand for and social justice.
But our top players want to play and they play with sold out crowds. And the energy in our stadium is unbelievable for such a small venue.
Soccer really matters in Vermont. And that's, when I was, you brought up Kayla Porter, right? When I was a young coach, I was an assistant at the time.
I used to love getting on YouTube and watching Kayla Porter and the passion, the energy he displayed to his teams and the identity that was so clear. That's something I took from him.
Absolutely. There's a Vermont identity that is, I think, unique and we'll stick to that.
Rob, last few things and we'll let you go. We know you're busy.
We appreciate you taking the time today. Who were your, outside of Caleb, who were coaches maybe you looked up to, even if they were in other sports or people that you either try to model yourself after or, or idolize? Yeah.
I really appreciated like coach K's books, uh, on value points and non-negotiables and how you build a team culture. He's very clear and concise about how you do that and the, and the communication in which you use within your, your team so that people can all quickly come back to, you know, points in which we all agreed to be at at the beginning of the season.
And it was really cool. I got a chance to talk to him probably a couple of weeks after the national championship.
So, but as of now, like talking to you guys is definitely, was going to say, we're – Oh, my God.

Rob, at the risk of the wrath of Vermont's athletic director,

once you build this dynasty and win three or four more national championships,

is there ever a world in which you want to coach internationally,

professionally?

Is that something that you see further out on your horizon? I appreciate you thinking that, you know, that that could be a possibility. Yeah.
Four more national championships, you know, and, you know, let's beat Stanford's three, you know, three in a row that they won later on. Yeah.
I mean, look, I think it'd be an honor to be able to coach at the national team level at some capacity in Canada, whether it's a youth team or so forth. And I've done some work with U.S.
soccer and their scouting department. But, you know, you kind of leave me speechless, little you know thinking about that but i appreciate it and uh might need your guys's connections if i go abroad no problem at all we got we have plenty of those i will uh you don't need advice from me but i i think a lot of times people get um i've had a lot of conversations with with coaches and young coaches and you get caught up in the level or the, is it a national team or is it, you know, in the CPL, Canadian Premier League or the MLS or, and you get caught up in the level and you forget about the important thing is that you get to coach in the way you want every day.
And when you win the way you're winning, I don't know if power is the right word, but it gives you more and more influence to do things the way you want at Vermont.

And that's really valuable, right? Versus going somewhere else. I have close friends who have gone up in levels, but they have way less influence over what happens.
And it's not as enjoyable for them as just where they were before at a lower level. So it's a cautionary tale, but I'm sure no matter where you go, it's very clear that you know how to be successful.
And we're really grateful, Rob, that you took the time here. We are fans.
We were all watching together at the end when you guys beat Marshall. And it was fun to watch.
It was enjoyable to watch. And wherever it takes you, whether it's Vermont, like Coach K was at Duke for 30 years or anywhere along the way, we're excited for you.
And we appreciate you taking the time today. Yeah, been an honor.
Thanks for coming on. Thanks, guys.
Any lasting words, Rob? Any lasting words that you want to leave with the fan base? We're not underdogs. We're just dogs.
There you go. That's beautiful.
We're going to pin that. We're going to use that.
That's awesome, Rob. Continued success.
Thanks, guys. All right, guys.
We're going to take a break. Huge thanks to Rob Dow again and the University of Montt.
The Catamounts. We'll be right back with more NCAA soccer discussions right here on Unfiltered Soccer presented by Volkswagen.
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LG, I got to say, I really enjoyed Rob Dow. I think- Yeah, me too.
He's humble. He's a champion.
And one of the things I liked most about the conversation with him was he talked about culture and he gave us examples of how he built it and i people it's amazing all people want to talk about now in sports is culture culture it's just like this buzzword and literally nobody knows what it means nobody knows how to implement it yeah then when you see it when you see it and and you see someone who has success because of culture like they didn't win because they went out and bought all the best players correct they went out and won because they have as you said he brought these 50 year seniors back who bought their own meal plan just to be around the freshmen so well done to him i enjoyed that yeah we've been around obviously lots of teams and you you know it when you see it and you feel it where the culture is right and you know it when it wrong yeah right and like my first first day i walked into the everton dressing room i was like oh yeah this is right like they know what they're doing and he how many times did he say my assistants got it right my seniors got it right right and he's humble he clearly knows how to lead i think the most important thing he he said, when we recruit, our seniors are recruiting them and deciding whether or not they want them on this team or not. And I can guarantee you, Tim, there's a lot of times he's probably had a top player come in and they went, not for us, sorry.
Totally. We're just not going to sign you.
And that is so, like, when you can flip it on its head, because most of these, you know, Bill Belichick right now is going into a 17-year-old's house and begging them to come play for North Carolina, right, until he gets that right, which he will eventually. But when you can flip that and say, well, do you want to be here or not? You show us.
The begging looks different now. He's going to be begging with a bag.
Take that. Totally.
Take that. You go count that.
Me and mom and dad will talk. Look, I think college soccer has a really interesting or takes up an interesting space in American soccer.
Like on the women's side, that is the breeding ground, right? Your four-year breeding ground and some are leaving early, but to get to the NWSL or professional soccer abroad. In America, for the men, it's been a little bit different.
You and I, we'll talk about our collective routes, but we didn't go to college, right? And when you look at just this past December, Philadelphia Union traded all of their draft picks the next three seasons to the Colorado Rapids for just over $600,000 in general allocation money. So, you know, even at the end of my MLS playing career, there were numbers that were saying draft picks mean nothing.
The, the, the percentage of kids coming out of college don't make MLS rosters. And so, um, yeah, it's an interesting space that, um, needs probably to revamp, uh, coming up soon.
Well, and it is right from what everything what everything we hear, there is some version, I'm going to totally butcher this and so I don't even want to pretend like I know what's going on, but there is some form of a revitalized, revamped college system that is going to allow a European-type calendar to happen. So it goes from August to whatever May.
And for people who don't know right now, college season now goes basically August through December. Is that right? They finished in December.
So they play three months a year. And if you think about 16 and 17 year olds in MLS academies or in youth academies, they're playing 10 or 11 months a year against high quality competition.
To play three months a year, you have zero chance to develop. If you're at college for four years and you've played three months during the year, that's it.
You're way behind, way behind. And so US soccer has taken the lead on this conversation.
We'll get more into this later, but US soccer has taken the lead and said, let's make an August all the way through May calendar and use college soccer as a form of semi-pro soccer that helps bridge that gap from an 18-year-old to a 22-year-old. Because around the world, Tim, you know this.
If you're 18 and you're not starting to train, at least train with the first team, your chances of playing or being a real pro are way down. And if you're 22 and you're not playing, you've got almost no chance.
So I think this is a positive step once it gets there. And I'd be curious if our fans know more about this because we're kind of learning as we go here.
Please let us know. But there is reform coming.
And there has to be reform coming because what people on the surface, at the top of the conversation, want to talk about, when are we going to produce a world-class player?

When are we going to win the World Cup on the men's side? And you can't even begin to have that conversation without going to the basic levels. You know, you talk about you and I being at Everton.
And underneath us, there was the youth, there was the reserve team, and there was under-18s. Like you said, if you're in the under 18s and you haven't gotten dipped your toe in with the first team, there's a good likelihood you're out the door.
But the great thing about that system, Landon, is that's a Premier League club. And if you're an under 18 at a Premier League club and you don't make it, you can still go to League One.
You can maybe go to the championship, right, and make a decent living for yourself. In Americaica because our system is set up as such you can't if you're if you're 18 and you haven't really done much of anything and produced and you're at a certain college that's it there's nowhere to go there's literally nowhere to go and so um yeah it'll be interesting because i think it breaks up the traditional norm of like you know depending on how u.s soccer And we know a few people at U.S.
soccer who will hopefully get on and talk about it because it's a really interesting topic. But like real, real big conferences when it comes to college soccer may, may get in that system and no longer be part of the current.
Part of the NCAA. Yeah.
I mean, that's a massive transition.

Look, my overall take on this is whatever's happening and going on right now is not working still. Right.
And I am when people say, why haven't we won a World Cup? I am always, always, Tim, the person who says we are so young in this country. Major League Soccer is a few decades old.
give us time. However, as I start to see the last five years, 10 years, what's happening in MLS, fewer and fewer Americans in MLS, what's happening when kids come out of college, fewer and fewer college kids now going on to play professionally, it's not working, right? It's not working.
So if we have to flip the thing on its head and see if something new works, I all for it i have no issue with it i mean do you think a longer college season will ultimately then lead to more of those players being pros or is this kind of pie in the sky look it's we need to develop yeah it's a it's a it's a hard question to answer ld because we need development right we need yeah i guess it's still about the coaches when you look you know you said it it's a it's it's a mass you These kids get on campus, right? We need. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's still about the coaches.
When you look, you know, you said it's a, it's, it's a mass, you get, these kids get on campus, right? In, in early middle of July, they start preseason, right? Because of rules and regs, they can't start preseason until August 1st. And then it's literally this sprint out of the traps, right? For preseason, train as hard as you can for, for, for two weeks, you play a couple of exhibition games and then boom, you're in a three, a three month season and you're playing twice a week.
And then it's over. And then there's, and then there's Christmas break or holiday break.
Then you come back and you're limited to eight hours a week, eight hours a week for, I'm going to get this wrong, but maybe a month or two. And then it goes, well, half of those hours are just, you're just warming up.
You're warming up up you're warming up or you're in the weight room doing doing mobility right and so like you have to if you're if you have any aspirations of building a proper base and and youth soccer in this country and youth soccer can obviously be extended to college you have to you have to be training regularly every day and you know these college institutions are, and it's starting to turn because of NIL, it was always about, no, no, no, we're an educational institution first. And I think we've seen, there'll always be books involved, but I think you saw with Ohio State winning the national championship for football, that's a $20 million squad.
That's insane. It's a $20 million squad.
If anyone tells me that that's about education anymore, it's not. It's not.
It's about business. So, yeah, I'm interested to see, you know, it's going to take a radical change and a hard pivot on so many different levels in this country with soccer to make a real difference.
Because we've been doing this, you said it's a couple decades old. It is is.
We've been doing it for long enough though, to understand it ain't working. Not, it's not working in terms of youth development.
I'm skeptical still that playing more or for longer period in college is going to eventually lead to more professionals, but you have like what you have in England and we'll use England as an example, cause we both played there, you have a very small geographic footprint, but you have hundreds and hundreds of clubs, almost 100 professional, or league clubs, and then you have a bunch of semi-professional. And so there's so much opportunity for players, and I know he's the anomaly, like Jamie Vardy, come out of nowhere of nowhere.
And we don't have that. We don't have that capability right now.
We don't. And it's, it's, it makes it challenging because you get this small group of players who have basically been picked since they were 12 or 13 and all the resources have gone into those kids.
And then you just hope some of them make it right. As opposed to casting a much bigger net, which this would do.

And hopefully you get a kid who maybe goes to college for two years and was missed by the system who then becomes a national team player. Yeah, I mean, I think the point you make is a good one.
And, you know, when I look at Germany and I look at Holland and I look at England, these countries are the size of sometimes small states in America or even like a bigger state. And then they're having at some level a football organization.
They're probably, like you said, 100 plus. Imagine the state of New Jersey having 100 plus professional teams somehow linked to professional or semi-professional.
If you are any decent player, you're going to have the opportunity to beam with one of those clubs. The geography has butchered a lot of the development in U.S.
soccer. What's your take? I know we've talked about this briefly on kids going into the portal and and and and transferring and i i really struggle with it but i also understand a kid who's not playing and this is their one chance to find an opportunity like what's your take on that look i tend to like i i'm not all for player power like holy but i think it's i think it adds a balance right and when it adds a balance then both sides have to get creative but what what i didn't like was um you know a young young woman a young man going into a university at 17 18 years old and then for whatever reason right they they either don't perform well or they're falling out with the coach or a new coach comes in, which we've oftentimes seen and you're not that coach's cup of tea.
They don't like your style. They want to bring someone else in.
So either you just sit there and rot or you transfer, but then you sit out, you have to sit out a year, right? This I kind of like because I said, NCAA sports has now become a business. Well, back up.
It's always been a business. I was going to say it's always a business.
It's now become an acceptable, obvious, out-in-the-open business. And this allows some of these young men and women to navigate their own careers and say, like, this isn't a fit any longer.
And I shouldn't be punished for that, right? Because I always thought the opposite was true. When a coach is done with you and doesn't have time, time for you.
Well, they just recruit somebody in your position and they go, you go sit over there. And, and you're like, well, I don't, I can't, I can't better myself anymore.
I'm done. Like I'm done.
I, I've been, I'm surplus to requirements. And so I think it hands the power back a little bit to these young men and women to allow them to kind of be able to control some of the direction of their career.
Now, like everything, it has its ups and downs. But like I said, it's about getting clever.
I know coaches personally who basically are like, I'm at a power four school. I'm not really going to recruit too heavily.
I'm just going to wait for the transfer portal. I'm going to bring in all the best kids that fell out at UCLA and Oklahoma and these places, by the way, I'm getting grade one recruits, right? They're falling in my lap and I have an amazing program and they're building a team, a national powerhouse team based on the transfer portal.
So it works both ways. Well, not only a transfer portal, but they can also pay players now.
So, so, so really the recruitment, like you recruitment like you said comes with a bag in your hand right here's a bag of cash and it changes the whole conversation versus you know vermont's a great school vermont has a beautiful camp it's like okay here's some money do you want to do it or not but you know who's going to win tim in the end and this is this is always in life there there'll be all these different iterations all these different mechanisms things will change whatever the people who win are the rob dow's of the world because they create and we'll talk about again culture where people want to be there and ultimately you know i learned this in usl right with san diego loyal when we were san diego we were a couple years we were a top six spending club other years we were you years we were middle of the table. But we always finished near the top or in the playoffs because, one, San Diego.
People want to be in San Diego. But if you're offering a guy $80,000 and he has an offer for $95,000, but you can provide so many other things that you know will help them and you can prove that over time, they're going to come to you.
And that's what's happening with Rob. And at Vermont now, he can say, look, like I said earlier, if you don't want to be here, don't come.
You know, we're not begging you. Before you had to beg.
And he still has to do some of that. He alluded to that.
But it allows you the opportunity to flip the script a little bit. And people like that will always win, no matter what changes around them.

Yeah, I mean, some of the smaller, so-called smaller schools will win out, right?

Because the kids who aren't necessarily, you know, who are at a power four school and they just can't get a sniff, they might go to a quote unquote smaller school.

But look, make no mistake about it.

I know firsthand.

This, when we talk about business, right, LD, it's no different, by the way, than LeBron James saying like, I'll take a meeting with the Knicks. I'll take a meeting with the Lakers.
Once I take those meetings, okay, who's giving me what? I know firsthand of a girl who's gone to three, transferred, gone to three schools, big schools, visited the campuses, heard everything, and then gone, okay, I like y'all. Who's giving me what? And the biggest bitter one.
And I think that's a great thing. Yeah.
And look, everybody values different things, right? So again, I'll reference Loyal again. When we would talk to a free agent, we would intentionally ask, what do you value? If it's money, just say it.
I don't care. If it's money, just tell me.
We don't have to have this like, I just care about the club. And it's like, bullshit.
Just tell me if it's money. For some people it is.
Some people grew up with a lot of money. 80 grand isn't going to change their life.
So it's living in San Diego or it's the club or it's the ownership or whatever. So as long as there's clarity around that, no problem.
And if it's money, then just tell me. And most of the time it is.
And look, you and I had a lot of phone calls when I was at Memphis, not a one of C and you were at San Diego. We talk and we talk about players and different things.
And I can remember also a player coming into my office and saying like, Tim, I appreciate you guys taking a chance. I mean, we had a great season, but like Indy's offering me 50,000 more.
And I'm like, hey, kid, get your eyes off the floor. Get out that door and go sign that contract.
I can't keep you. Here's your ticket to Indy.
You know, you don't have to be upset about it. And so it's, yeah, it's about the money and that's where we are in college sports.
Yeah. All right.
We will tie a bow on it with that. I'm going to be interesting to see how it unfolds because there are changes coming and, you know, basically what a lot of these top division one schools have said, or these conferences have said is if the NCAA doesn't get on board with changing this schedule, we're just going to leave, right? We're just going to leave the NCAA.
So there's going to be, there'll be a power struggle there. And, and the schools have made it clear that at least in soccer, three months isn't enough.
Like they need to have a real season in order for, for these players to develop, coaches to develop people to be more involved in the sport. I think it's good for everyone.
All right, let's take a break. When we come back, we'll get into your questions and the AT&T fan connection and talk anything but soccer right here on unfiltered soccer with Landon and Tim presented by Volkswagen.
So stick around. It's time for the fanion presented by AT&T.
Every week, we invite you, the listener, to connect with us by submitting your questions. The best way to grow the game of soccer in the U.S.
is to keep asking questions and keep talking about the sport we all love. At AT&T, connecting changes everything.
And on USLNT, our connections with you will help grow the game. LD, everyone's favorite, favorite time of the week.
Everybody's. Including Jordan's favorite time of the week.
Jordan, get on in here. J-Y'all.
Hello. Jordan, what do we got? Jordan, what do we got? We've got some NCAA questions.
Okay, great. This first one's a little spicy, so I'm interested to see what you guys have to say.
We like spice. This is via email from Brad.
It says, I hear so little conversation about the impact that college football in conjunction with Title IX has upon other men's college sports. when a university has to spend the same amount on women's sports as it spends on men's sports, totally well-intentioned, by the way, and 60-80 scholarships are given to men playing American football, we see the result.
Major universities dropping men's non-revenue sports like soccer, swimming, and cross country. What are your thoughts about this?

Would it be right to take men's American football out of the Title IX equality calculation, maybe create women's American football programs or some other solution? Holy hell, you said spicy. That was just a blame thrower.
Tim, go ahead. You have a daughter in this world.
No, I mean, look, I think Title IX is fantastic, and it gives so much money to women's sports and that empowerment. So, look, I understand the question, right? Because of that, you have the power players and the king, which is American football.
It's king in college, and it's king in the nfl it's the most money maker by a trillion percent so everything then trickles down from there in a really good way the the the gray part is that some men's varsity sports are getting cut um the suggestion that we take football out of the equation okay but then you you get you don't get nearly as much money coming into the universities, right? Like that money is coming into universities through television rights, through donors and alumni. And they're just not, you know, as Rob Dowd just mentioned to us, they're not paying tons of money for NIL deals for the men's soccer team, right? And so we still need the football money in my opinion if there's another way to do it um and i certainly don't like seeing varsity sports get cut that's difficult yeah i don't have i don't have too much to add i just the the system's broken right like we have to admit that and very few systems are perfect so you have to accept that as a starting point i i don't know this world very well but i do see it i have seen it um lots of men's college collegiate soccer programs have gone away and it's just a byproduct of what happens um it's weird because in some ways you want to say let let the market dictate what should happen, but the NCAA's mantra is to help all sports.
Right. And so it's, it's just, it hasn't, it probably hasn't worked out the way everyone wanted, but there's enough creative people and there's enough money where there should be a solution.
Like sports should be going away out of out of collegiate schools it doesn't make sense right agreed so i don't know the answer i mean that's an interesting it's a great question it's an interesting idea he said to take football out but i would be curious to see what that then looks like yeah i think i think the money drops. I don't know if there's even enough money left in the pot to keep teams around.

Yeah, because who else?

Well, college basketball, perhaps.

Sure, sure.

But then there's not enough money still probably to fund all these things.

Great question.

I appreciate that.

Great question.

Very thought-provoking.

Okay, I have one that's kind of more like a statement,

but I want to get your take on this. So this is from someone whose name is also Jordan via email.
And it says, I feel like in a country like the U.S., trying to utilize a European style of youth development is going to be impossible. If I'm trying to get kids access to soccer, I get American soccer on TV.
I encourage school soccer programs, get the

coaches, the licensing and training they need. And I make college soccer more intriguing.
Try to

convince a college soccer team to look more professional and turn big noon kickoff into a

men's and women's college double header on Saturday afternoon. Lean into the American system rather

than trying to copy the Euros. What do you guys think about that? I disagree.
You know, it's a good point that Jordan makes, but we have tried every variation. Amanda and I have been a part of this as young players and as parents, and we've tried every variation almost of trying to create a system.
And when you look at how the rest of the world operates, it starts with the professional clubs and then it trickles down. They fund and facilitate.
One of the, and Jordan brings up a good point, get the coaching. The coaching, youth development coaching in America is poor.

And that would be-

Okay.

Yeah.

So poor, I thought I was kind of understating.

It's a disaster.

So we still have to figure out how to get better coaching.

And oftentimes when you can streamline it and put it underneath the Everton way,

Liverpool way, Manchester United way, and you get these coaches, I mean, it happens all

the time in Spain.

Each club and in Holland and Germany as well, each club has a certain style or philosophy

and you start that at the senior team that you see that's playing in the Champions League

all the way down to the keys and the under nines.

They all play the same way and the same philosophy. There's only really one way to do it to have success, in my opinion.
And we just talked about it. The NCAA as an institution doesn't care about soccer.
And to be honest, they only care about football and basketball because it makes them a lot of money. Let's just call it what it is.
So you can't make collegiate soccer that much better unless you have people who are invested and care about it, who are the governing body, right, which is the NCAA. And the challenge now with U.S.
soccer is that is the governing body. I think people at the top do care genuinely.
The problem in our society is there's too many fractured parts of youth soccer in America, and there's no commonality between any of it. And that's where the problems are.
When you go to Everton, it's all about Everton. All about Everton, up and down the system.
You go to Liverpool, it's all about. And in MLS clubs, it feels that way too.
But the Premier League as a whole, the governing body, is all about promoting the sport and making it better. In this country, we don't have people at the bottom who care about the sport and making it better.
They care about money. And that's all there is to it.
And that's just the way it is. So it's kind of like a catch-22 in a way, because what this other Jordan is talking about is something that's more suited to a sport that's slightly more popular than soccer is in the country in terms of like the amount of money that's coming in at the professional level because I mean the NFL is just pouring sure there's so much money in there compared to what's in MLS but then by the same token what you're talking about is there's also a problem at the other end right for the the youth and NCAA So it's kind of like, how do you solve both of those things at the same token, what you're talking about is there's also a problem at the other end, right, for the youth and NCAA soccer.
So it's kind of like, how do you solve both of those things at the same time? Well, what he or she is suggesting is that we change the whole system to be American, right? And if that is how it had started here and that's how the rest of the world did it, it be more accepted it would there would be a function a functionality that would work and in the women's game to some extent it does work right and now there's not the influx of money but it does work that way because that's the way it's been and and but that's probably going to change right it's probably going to change and go more towards how the rest of the world goes.

Okay, one more question.

This one came from X or Twitter, whatever we're calling it now.

It's from Gavin.

It says, Patrick Ajemang made it to the U.S. Men's National Team,

working his way up from Division III college ball.

In your opinion, are college players overlooked or not getting enough attention from MLS?

Are there any changes to the Super Draft that need to happen? Yes, players get overlooked. We talked to Rob about this, Rob Dow, and he said 30% to 35% of his players are internationals.
The players that get overlooked are really the, like Ajumang, like a division three or an NAIA kid. Those kids get overlooked because those are, those are some kids.
And Tim and I talked about this before the show started today. Those are kids who are in professional academies till they were 18.
Maybe then tried to make it as a pro somewhere else for a year or two. But these are good kids, like very good players, just because they're not as good as the top kid at Man City, they're not Phil Foden, doesn't mean they're not good players.
They just don't get signed by Man City, but these are good players. It's less so with Americans.
I think Patrick is the anomaly in that way, but there are a lot of international players who then, by the way, can still be signed by MLS clubs out of college and get green cards quickly could also become American and Americanized. But yeah, it's, you know, we alluded to it with Philly.
They don't value the draft and that's okay because they have a fantastic youth system, but there are a lot of players who get overlooked. There's no question.
Let's, let's, let's pull all of these things together. If I an mls team right you and i are mls owners right we we own a team together and we're we're trying to draft a player it's not that these college players aren't good you've been in in the la galaxy preseason when college players have come in right i've been in new y New York and in Denver when these college players come in.
You're ultimately, LD, getting a 20-year-old player, right, who hasn't played a lot of soccer in the last five years. So you've seen it.
Right. The player's actually, he's pretty good.
He knows how to head it and kick it, get it down, play a pass here or there. but hit overall he's not a very good soccer player because he hasn't had so he's gone he's gone five years almost and played no sock like little to no soccer he's played from like september to november and then he's asked to come into a into a mls team which by the way it's win now it's invest in you.
Why would we, why would we invest in a player who's already passed a sell by day? And we don't even know if we can develop him because he's 20 years old already. Like, does that start to make sense a little bit? And that's why so many, and MLS has tried, by the way, they've had the draft, they've had the draft, the super draft.
And ultimately the numbers are just like, this isn't, this isn't pie in the sky the sky mls overall every single team is basically saying we draft x amount of players out of the super draft and by year two they're no longer with our organization if every team's saying that why what's the point of going through that exercise so wow yeah let's tie it back to the collegiate landscape soccer colleg collegiate landscape, potentially changing. So in that way, as you're talking through that, I'm thinking, OK, there is a chance because now if you're playing year round, but that's a starting point.
The other crucial factor, and I cannot overstate this, is being in the environment of professional soccer versus college soccer. It is, they are complete opposites.
When you are a 16 year old and I went to Leverkusen and the first day I was there training, nobody passed me the ball. And I went to my dad.
I'm like, why are they not passing me the ball? And they, at 16 years old, and he goes, why would they want you to succeed? This is their livelihood. This kid's from Bulgaria.
He has nothing else. He needs to succeed here.
That versus going to a college environment where everything's fun and happy and we're bros and all that. Totally different.
And so if you've been a 16-year-old in that environment for three or four years, you are miles better than a 20-year-old who's been playing three years of college soccer. Miles miles even if you're not as talented totally you're just hardened yeah and you are a much

different player yeah that's right good job jr thank you very much all right all right we'll

see you later all right tim that was fun i enjoyed that rob was great huh yeah he was yeah he was

great i'm a fan now forever of the vermont catams. We've got to get some Catamount gear.
Oh, that'd be sick. Right? Maybe by saying that, they'll send us some.
I would love that. All right, guys.
Thanks for being with us today. This was a lot of fun.
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