07 Blood On The Tracks | Face To Face

You ever watch the news and think, whoa, this seems unprecedented?

Unprecedented.

It's unprecedented.

This has never happened before.

This is unprecedented.

Well, that's not always quite true.

I'm Matt Bevan, and my show, if you're listening, is about finding times that what's happening now has happened before and figuring out what we can learn from it.

Learning from history.

I mean, who could imagine?

Find new episodes on ABC Listen every Thursday.

This is an ABC podcast.

Just a note before we start.

This case is currently being looked at by the New South Wales Coroner.

After this podcast was first released in 2017, the coroner agreed to launch a fresh inquest.

Keep listening to the end of this series to find out about the new information that's recently been revealed in the inquest hearings.

This season of Unravel is intended to be listened to as a whole.

If you haven't heard all the episodes, you shouldn't draw any conclusions because you haven't heard all the sides of the story.

And a warning for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

This series contains the names of people who have died.

One of Mark's closest friends, Jason Wan, is halfway through an interview with me at a hotel in Tamworth.

He's just given me the biggest lead in my five-year investigation.

And if it's true, this lead could solve the case.

She said, look, I've had to come around and see you guys.

I've just

told me something and it's really concerned me and I need to tell you.

It's a story that comes from someone he trusts completely.

She said that he had gotten drunk,

had become very emotional, and had told her that he was there the night that Mark was dead, and that he'd placed Mark's body on the tracks.

So, Greg allegedly confessed years ago to putting Mark's body on the tracks.

He was Mark's friend.

He was out with Mark that night at Domino's.

We're beeping out Greg's real name.

Jason has another story about him from the day of Mark's funeral.

Mum gave us a yellow rose each

to place down Mark's grave and

I remember that that

was quite hesitant to do that for some reason, whatever, he had his own reasons and on the way home from the funeral we had to stop the car.

Sitting in the back, he became quite nauseous and actually vomited on the way home from the funeral.

People experience grief in different ways, so that doesn't really amount to anything.

Maybe Greg really was sick or his reaction to grief was a physical one.

But what I can't get past is this allegation that Greg confessed to putting Mark's body on the tracks.

So I asked Jason again, what exactly is Greg supposed to have said?

Basically he said that he was there that night.

the night that Mark was killed and that he

had put his body on the tracks.

Put Mark's body on the train tracks.

Yeah, yeah.

And put a box over him.

And put a box over him.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's what he said.

As Warnie's saying this to me, I'm immediately thinking, if that's true, why didn't they go to the authorities?

Why didn't they turn him in?

But the next thing he tells me is that they did go to the authorities straight away.

We decided the best course of action was to contact Crime Stoppers, which we did that night.

So I remember calling Crime Stoppers and telling them that.

Apparently there's no record of that phone call, though I've spoken to some detectives in recent months that state that they have no record of that phone call being made.

This is a crucial lead that emerged years ago.

And as far as I know, it wasn't followed up.

until now.

Jason's glad that this allegation is finally seeing seeing the light of day because it's weighed heavy on him ever since he heard it.

It makes my stomach turn and it disappoints me

because

we were close friends.

We'd mourned him together.

I mean, if he's got information that can put this all to rest, or information that

can

get justice, give Mark justice, he should come forward.

He should speak to the police.

He should speak to somebody.

My opinion is if he has information and he's not coming forward, he's a coward.

I'm Alan Clark and this is the final episode of Unravel Season 1, Blood on the Tracks.

As I speak to people in Tamworth, it feels like I'm closer than ever to cracking the mystery of Mark Haynes' death.

This investigation has covered so much ground.

I started with nothing except the strong convictions of Duck and the family five years ago.

We have maintained our boy has met with foul play.

Since then, the family and I have uncovered flawed police work.

And the police are saying that he turn around and lie down, you know, in the middle of the track.

That was their story, you know what I mean?

But it wasn't our story.

People have come forward who've never spoken before.

And I do believe my son was the driver.

Just remember seeing a boy lying on the tracks.

And now, in this episode, I sit down face to face with Greg, the man who made that alleged confession.

Back at my hotel after the interview with Jason Won, my mind is racing.

as I go over what he just told me.

So I record what I'm thinking.

One of the moments that my ears really pricked up during Jason's interview was when he said that

this man had allegedly put a box on Mark's body and so I immediately thought I've read that somewhere and

it's from the testimony of of a train driver coming into Tamworth on the morning that Mark was found and he said that there was a white box on the train tracks.

And they noticed it and they hit it and they kept going.

That same crew came back out and they said, distinctly, they said the white box was gone, nowhere to be seen, and there was Mark's body.

And so, that level of detail just immediately had me interested.

And that's the first time I've ever heard anyone outside of that train driver testimony actually talk about a box on Mark's body.

These kind of details just make me more determined to find out whether this confession really happened.

We need to speak to the person who heard the alleged confession firsthand.

And it's not long before our senior producer, Susie Smith, has tracked her down.

The woman doesn't want to do an interview, but she's happy to have a chat.

I'm stuck out of town following up other leads, so Susie heads straight over to talk to her alone.

As soon as I can get back to town, I meet up with Susie to hear about what she's found out.

Hey!

So I'm just

letting Saul.

We've beeped out the woman's real name

and she

said that

he got very drunk one night and burst into tears and basically

described to her that he'd been there that night

He was with those guys, there'd been a terrible accident that they'd laid him on the railway tracks and they'd put a big white box on top of him.

A big white box.

So if it was an accident, I mean, does she think that it was just an accident or was it connected to some drug trade?

Well, she seems to think there was a car accident.

So that would also...

Wouldn't that fit with the police trying to find Terry Souter's car in that water hole?

Possibly, yeah.

Maybe that's the car that he had.

Yeah, that could be the key.

We don't know how Mark died and we're not suggesting that anyone intentionally harmed him.

In fact, this new information has me replaying that night in a completely different light.

We know Greg was at the nightclub with Mark earlier in the evening.

That's when I see him

walking up and down outside Domino's and that's why I just yelled out, what are you doing?

after everyone left the club Mark walked his girlfriend Tanya back to her house

a car was seen hooning around that area

there was a white Tirana sedan coming up the street on our left it was going pretty fast

Next minute I heard this car come flat out up Churchill Street and I didn't think it would make the corner.

It almost hit the house.

I thought it was going to hit the house.

And maybe the people in that car weren't standover men or people involved in the drug trade.

Maybe they were Mark's friends and one of them could have been Greg.

There's a little piece of information I've known for a while and it's niggled at me but it didn't seem that important until now.

Greg had a link to that stolen stolen Tirana crashed at the tracks.

It was owned by Greg's boss.

It could be that a group of friends started mucking around with this car and another one owned by Terry Souter.

I've recently learned that people would sometimes have drag races or joyride out on the roads near the railway track.

At some point, one or both of those cars were involved in an accident.

Some of Mark's injuries didn't look like they were caused by a train.

And in episode 4, an expert told us that it's likely he sustained a head injury earlier in the night.

The new scenario could explain that subdural hematoma pulled on Mark's brain and the lack of blood around his body.

And maybe after that crash, a group of teenagers made a decision that would stay with them for the rest of their lives.

A decision to cover up this tragic accident.

To make Mark's death look like a suicide.

Maybe they carried Mark's body and put him in Terry's car.

Then they took the white box full of presents and drove further up the track.

Then they might have climbed up onto the tracks and put Mark's body between the rails.

The white box full of presents could have been placed on top of Mark as a way to hide him from the oncoming train.

As we go over this scenario, Susie and I are wrestling with a new question.

Why would someone cover up a car accident?

And if it was just an accident, why didn't they go to the police?

I think the retribution, the fear of retribution would have been a factor as well.

Because those boys would have been, when we're talking about Dark Jack, Don and Mark's late father Ron I mean they were tough you know like you wouldn't want to muck with that family like you know they'd be frightened I think they'd be terrified you know why do you think people are talking now because they

they're not afraid anymore I think once the reporting has been out there and more and more people come forward

it lets others feel safer to do that and a lot of people who've come forward have said to me I've come forward because I want to help you know and that's really quite powerful.

Yeah, there must be a lot of people who are feeling really guilty out there.

Knowing all this, I have to find Greg.

I have to put these allegations to him.

I'm not saying Greg did anything to cause Mark's death.

The allegation is this, that he confessed to being there, putting Mark's body on the tracks.

and placing a white box over him.

To my surprise, after months of back and forth and false starts, Greg agrees to an interview.

When I started this investigation five years ago, I never imagined it would lead me here.

I'm a long way from Tamworth.

I'm actually in a well-off neighbourhood full of McMansion-type homes with double garages near the Queensland coast.

And I'm about to sit down with Greg.

I'll admit I'm really nervous.

We thought this interview would never happen.

I walk down his long driveway and knock on the large white doors where he meets me.

He's a middle-aged white bloke, tall and solidly built.

He leads me through his modern home and we sit down on his back patio next to a pool.

He's been cooking a roast for the family and he says they'll be back soon so I know we don't have much time.

Thanks for agreeing to have a yarn with me.

No worries mate.

I get the sense that Greg just wants me to get on with it.

Look, I just want to start off and get a little bit about your history with Mark.

Like, you know, yeah, what was your relationship to him?

Oh, mate, when Mark got to high school, he came sort of, I think it was in maybe year nine, end of of year eight, year nine, something like that.

We were just all mates at school, playing footy together.

That's about it, mate.

Yeah.

The night before Mark died, he was at Domino's.

What was Domino's like?

Tell me about that.

Domino's the nightclub.

Yeah.

Well, we were all underage.

We used to go there occasionally.

So

yeah, just a normal sort of nightclub.

Yeah.

Nothing too dramatic.

No.

Just...

Oh, it was a bit of a rough sort of place at times, but nothing dramatic.

Do you remember the night before?

No,

I don't remember that really at all.

I've actually read back over my police statement.

I can't remember any of where it says we went to a different club earlier in the night and then walked over the street and

blah blah blah, whatever it was, but that could have been any given night.

So you don't remember

who else was out that night?

Not the real night, no?

No, no.

And did you hear any rumours at the time about what might have happened to Mark?

No, not for years and years after.

We heard a rumour that he was caught up in some sort of drug scandal.

But that's not Mark, mate.

No, he wasn't a criminal, mate.

He's not a...

He was just a kid.

We're all just kids.

And

shortly after Mark died,

the police came up with this theory and told the family that Mark had gotten drunk, stole a car, crashed it out near the train tracks, and walked concussed onto the railway and laid down.

What do you say to that theory?

No, not a chance, mate.

Mark couldn't drive.

So Mark couldn't drive?

No.

That's what I said at the inquest.

I did say that at the inquest, and I've put that in my police statement.

Mark couldn't draw a car, mate.

Yeah, and

plain and simple.

And it was a manual car, wasn't it?

So,

yeah.

Yep.

No, he couldn't.

Yeah, he just couldn't drive.

At the time of Mark's death were you working for

and

owned the Toronto market.

Did you know that?

Yeah.

Were you shocked when you found out that Toronto had been found near Mark?

Yeah a little bit yeah.

Yeah.

I have

no idea how that's happened like

There are some people who have told me that they think you were involved in Mark's death.

Have you heard that?

No, I haven't heard that.

People can think what they want.

I know the truth.

I wasn't there.

You weren't out there on the train tracks that night?

Absolutely not.

This might be the last time I get to talk to Greg, so I have to ask him one more time.

So I'll just ask you one last time.

Did you have anything to do with Mark's death?

Absolutely not.

Were you there on the train tracks when Mark died?

Absolutely not.

We have a source that says that you had spoken about being out there.

What do you say?

It's an absolute lie.

If I knew something, I would 100%

fucking tell you.

Right?

I mean, no word of a fucking lie, no doubt at all.

If I knew something, I would tell you.

I drive away from the sprawling suburbs around Greg's house, trying to work out where this leaves my investigation.

Greg strongly denied every one of the allegations I put to him.

So, right now, we have a woman saying Greg confessed to her about putting Mark's body on the tracks and placing a white box on him.

But Greg flat out denies it.

He says he can barely remember the night because it was so long ago.

Someone's not telling the truth.

We looked into Greg's alibi.

Here's what we know.

According to Greg's police statement, he says he had a beer with Mark at Domino's nightclub and left at 2.45 a.m.

He said that he shared a cab home with a mate called Michael Biddle.

So Michael was Greg's alibi.

I did ask Greg about this in the interview.

And you left with Michael Biddle, was that?

Yeah, with Michael Biddle, yeah.

Yeah, at around 2.45.

Yeah, yeah.

So if you ask me right now,

I couldn't honestly tell you that

I can't remember getting in a cab with Michael Biddle.

But it's 30 years ago.

We found Michael Biddle.

He doesn't want to be interviewed for this podcast, but he does tell me that he can't remember if he was at Domino's that night.

We've also been able to confirm with police that in the original 1988 investigation into Mark's death, Greg's alibi was never checked.

The things I've found out in the last few days could be the biggest breakthroughs in the history of the case.

So I do what I always do.

I head to Uncle Duck's garage in Tamworth.

We sit down next to the big old filing cabinet filled with traces of Mark's 30-year-old case.

And I tell Duck what I found out, the allegations about Greg and the car and how I think Mark ended up on the tracks.

What I feel is that there are a bunch of people in that car and they've taken off and they've gone joyriding or cruising around.

They've come out Durai Road, they've turned under Timbumburai Bridge,

to the right.

at speed, come up that dip, and then they've lost control and the car has flipped and I think Mark has gone through the windscreen.

Okay.

And all right, all right.

They panic and put him on the tracks.

I tell him about the alleged confession that Greg made.

The story about him putting Mark's body on the tracks and covering it with a white box.

Well, it would not surprise me that motor vehicle.

Duck begins to unpack this new information in the way that he usually does, working through the theories, weighing up the likelihood of each scenario.

So anyway, with the subdural hemorrhage,

within two hours, you know, lights are out.

So, hang on, what are we going to do?

And now

it's panic time.

He's not going to wake up.

He's getting worse.

He's dying.

What are we going to do about this?

We're going to make it look like an accident.

How are we going to do that?

After 30 years of waiting and so many false starts in this investigation, he's not about to rule anything in or out.

Not until the final proof is sitting in front of him.

This new scenario, this possible explanation for his nephew's death, is still just one of many theories for Duck.

Look, I cannot

discount it.

So I'm back in Sydney and it's freezing here.

It's just been raining non-stop since I got back from Tamworth.

I'm just sitting at my desk

just looking back over all of my notes and there's like a huge pile of notepads

and it's full of

information that I've collected over the past six months on Mark's case.

And there's a real sense that

just around the corner we're going to have the answers we've wanted

for so long.

And

the police have asked us to give them some information and so

We've handed over some of the things they wanted

and

what's really interesting is that for the first time in a very long time,

there is now a detective working on Mark's case full time.

And that's a really great thing.

You know, it's almost like the truth is just right there.

It's almost like I can just reach out and touch it.

And I just think back to when I first met Duck five years ago in his garage

when he kind of overwhelmed me with

all of this information about the case and sort of thrust those inquest documents into my hand.

I just think, oh wow, like

you know, at that time, I could never have imagined that five years down the track we would be,

you know, within reaching distance of the truth.

And

the thing is, this story isn't about me though, and I don't want it to be about me

or my investigation.

This story

is about a dead Aboriginal boy whose suspicious death was never investigated because he was black.

I truly believe if Mark was a white boy, things would be very different.

And if you travel across Australia and speak with Aboriginal communities,

everyone will have a similar story to this.

The difference is not everyone has an uncle duck.

Not everyone has such a staunch family who feel they can speak out against the justice system.

A lot of my mob feel powerless, voiceless within the judicial system.

They feel it's an insurmountable wall.

And

I guess the question

really

after

all of this is

do we as a country have the guts to confront some of these ugly truths?

The truths of our past, you know, the ones that we keep denying, the ones that we don't like to talk about?

Because I can tell you now,

my family

and all black folks across this country

deserve justice and they deserve better treatment within the justice system.

I've come to know Mark because of his tragic death.

But to those who knew him, he was so much more than a coal case.

To his brother and sister, Ron and Lorna, he was the ultimate big brother.

Yeah,

he was the best big brother.

Yeah.

And I always looked up to him and everyone loved him.

To his best mate, Jason Wan, he was a friend who always had your back and was someone you could always count on for a laugh.

Just great fun to be around.

Always had people laughing.

Excellent smile, big smile.

And I think that's what won a lot of people over, was that big smile.

And to his uncles, Jack, Craig and Duck.

Mark was their boy, whose unsolved death has weighed on the family for too long.

So he was virtually like my own son.

I felt that way.

Can you imagine the day when they arrest someone and then...

Yes, I can.

And in the very foreseeable future.

You think it'll happen soon?

Soon.

It's been long enough.

Yes, but I've got time.

Time is on my side, not theirs.

No, it's not me who needs to look over my shoulder.

They have to.

Because it's not just me, like I said before, I ain't alone anymore.

Do you think the truth will...

Truth is out there, all right.

It's out there.

If you know anything about this case, please let us know.

Our email is unraveltruecrime at abc.net.au.

And thanks to everyone who has already sent us tips.

We're following up on your leads.

A few people have asked me if we've received any official response to the podcast from the police.

We did reach out to the police earlier this year.

We requested interviews and sent written questions, but we're yet to receive a response to those questions.

Thanks for listening to Blood on the Tracks, season one of the ABC's True Crime Podcast Unravel.

This is our final episode for now, but I'm not done yet.

Yes, hello.

Hey Doc, how you going?

Yeah, not too bad.

Oh, look, Doc, I just wanted to call you because I've

found someone that I think could be really important to this story, and I think she wants to talk to me.

Yeah, well, that's very interesting.

Our season one story, Blood on the Tracks, is produced and reported by me, Alan Clark, with additional reporting from our senior investigative producer, Susie Smith.

Unravel's supervising producer is Tim Roxbrough, with help from Alex Mann.

Producers are Emma Lancaster and Ellen Leebeter.

Sound designer and composer is Martin Peralter.

Our digital team is led by Gina McEwen with Yal McGilfray.

Additional sound and vision from Greg Nelson.

Unravel's executive producer is Ian Walker.

Thanks once again for listening.

An hour.

One hour.

So I had this pig and I'm rubbing its stomach.

Two mics.

Two microphones.

The sound wave travels into the ear canal and it hits the eardrum.

Unfortunate stories.

Strutting, fluffing up your neck feathers, making booming sounds in your throat.

And you use the word, really.

And the answer to these really is always yes.

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