4 | Fact or Rumor?

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You are not going to believe what the Gnome City Hall just sent back to us. You are not going to believe it.
They gave us a report on Oregon Jones. Age, 52.
Weight, 270. Additional remarks from the Gnome known PD John has made threats to the known police department if any law enforcement approaches his tent on West Beach But this is just the tip of the iceberg In this report, there are 93 incidents Disorderly conduct Vehicle theft Assault third degree Cruelty to animals Harassment you three incidents.
Third degree. Cruelty to animals.
Sexual assault. First degree.
Probation violation.

Criminal trespass.

Assault.

Fourth degree.

Sexual assault.

First degree.

Known aliases.

Oregon John. Da-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun Da-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun Da-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun

Da-dun-dun-dun-dun

Da-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun

From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, I'm your host Payne Lindsey, and this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. Buckle up, Cooper.
Safety first. Oh man, okay.
So far, it seemed like everything in the universe was pointing us towards Oregon John. The circumstantial evidence, all the different stories about him, and not to mention the massive list of criminal offenses, it all seemed pretty undeniable.
But things were about to take a turn after receiving a text from Sue Steinecker, the longtime local here in Nome. She apparently has all this information about Flo's disappearance.
We'll see exactly what she means by that. She told me she has what she feels is some very strong evidence of what may have happened to Flo that night.
The pieces that I keep putting together, I put a lot of value in these texts. They make a lot of sense to me.
There's enough information in there about what happened. These text messages were sent out to different people here in Nome, but they all came from the same person.
She goes by... For the time being, I'm going to censor her name in the podcast, and I'm going to refer to her as Kelly.
She seems to be really troubled by this. This isn't the only text.
This woman, Kelly, described in great detail on multiple occasions to different people in Nome the circumstances of Florence Okpialik's murder

that night. I have since verified that these texts are in fact real.
As a warning, the following statements are very graphic in nature. To avoid confusion and to protect myself, all the names that Kelly mentions in her text messages are going to be censored for the time being.
But don't worry, we know exactly who they are.

The first text message sent from Kelly states the following.

I went to the lead FBI investigator last year,

and they recorded me and took my statement.

My ex-boyfriend is named ***.

He was very gone in his mind during the time Flo first went missing.

He said things to me which is a long story, but anyway, him and are the ones that are highly involved with Flo's disappearance. was telling people that they killed Flo

and chopped her up and put her in the water.

In his own... was telling people that they killed Flo and chopped her up and put her in the water.

In his own ways, always confessed to me with his involvement.

The police know all about this, and it's a long story.

But they need to put pressure on them

because one of them will crack and tell what they did.

There is a lot more to this story, though." These messages from a woman I'm calling Kelly paint a graphic tale of Flo's murder on the night she went missing. She implicates three individuals, two men and one woman, one of the men being her ex-boyfriend, who she claims confessed all of this to her.
And before you ask, Oregon John is not one of these names. This whole new theory seemed to come out of nowhere, lots of details and different names, but it's worth noting that it's only coming from one person, at least that we know of now.
Then there was another one where she apparently sent this text to a friend, who then sent

it to Flo's brother, and they shared it with me.

They cut her up after getting her high.

They said she was screaming too much and freaking out. So they did that to her.
I told ****** they should have record or report him. Don't know if it's true.
I don't know. Fucking freak me out.
They said they cut her up and hid her by Solomon or something. And not all of the stories jived, so that's a little confusing.
These messages were horrific, and they introduced three new players into the mix, none of whom were Org and John. Is all this true? And it's hard to imagine why somebody would make this up, unless we don't have the full picture here, one step at a time.
Remember how Oregon John told the bartender Naomi about having Flo's cell phone that night? Her cell phone and shoes being found outside of a tent. A pretty big deal if it's true.
Sue, through her own sleuthing, heard a very strange story about that cell phone from a source inside the search and rescue team. Upon examination of Flo's cell phone, after she went missing, they discovered one last phone call she made that night.
And it paints an eerie picture. Right before Flo's phone died, she said, I'm in the bushes with some people and they're passing something around and I don't feel safe.
That's pretty telling if that is true. Yeah.
That's hearsay for me. Whereas these I've seen, I can read them.

Just when it felt like things were starting to make a little sense,

all of a sudden, they don't anymore.

I've experienced this before, and it can be

maddening. So what really

happened that night?

Is Oregon John the world's unluckiest man?

Who's also a violent criminal?

Maybe.

And who's this other group of people that Kelly's talking about?

Who is Kelly in the first place?

Why is she saying this at all?

And why is no one else saying it?

I had to take a minute to rack my brain.

In a way, it feels like I'm starting over. The whole scope of my investigation just got a lot wider.
The one thing that did stand out to me can only be traced back to one person, Kelly herself. I've heard a lot of wild, wacky theories investigating cold cases.
And to be honest, it just comes with the territory.

And you really have to be careful. You can't be too quick to throw something out.
But you have

to try your best to stick to the cold, hard facts. What are the facts? And what are the rumors? And

those things can change and evolve throughout your investigation. The bottom line is that right now,

there are no facts to back up Kelly's claims. I need to find the real Kelly and talk to her myself.
I had to take a break from my investigation and head to Orlando for a conference. I had a speaking engagement at an event called CrimeCon.
It's a bizarre thing.

Every year, thousands of true crime listeners meet up in one place.

Experts, creators, podcasters,

former law enforcement, advocates,

and even the families of victims.

It's definitely a one-of-a-kind event,

but at its core, the biggest value that it brings

is to the victims' families,

a safe place to connect with others and actually attempt to solve the cases.

I'm Vinny Palatine. Welcome to Closing Arguments.

Great to have you with us tonight. We are live in Orlando, Florida.

It is CrimeCon 2023.

True crime really lives through these stories that take us to places that we haven't been and uncovering things we haven't seen. Joining me right now, Payne Lindsey.
Great to see you, Payne. What's your obsession right now? I've been going back and forth to Alaska all summer.
I'm at the point now where I'm kind of closing in on the circle of suspects

that I think may be involved. I was on a panel, and other members of the Tenderfoot team were running a podcast booth in the lobby.
During my presentation, one of our producers, Jamie, was given a random pamphlet from a complete stranger. And before Jamie really had a chance to look at it, the lady who gave it to her was gone in the crowd.
Inside this paper brochure that was randomly given to one of our producers at CrimeCon was the missing poster for Florence Okpialik and a written summary of details on her disappearance.

But here's the thing.

At this point in time, nobody,

and I mean pretty much nobody,

besides a few of our producers,

knew that I was investigating Flo's disappearance.

By design, I was keeping it a secret.

Nobody could have known about this. So what on earth? How? Who left that? It kind of still gives me goosebumps thinking about it.
It's one of those weird moments that just feels too uncanny. What are the odds? Gnome is so incredibly far away here, and this isn't a popular case on the internet.
I've read everything there is. The woman who left the brochure wrote down her cell phone number, an Alaska area code.
Right away, I called her. I didn't know you were working on a podcast for Flo.
I wanted to reach out to you because all of the news coverage that I read was very lacking in detail. Her name is Rachel Ventress.
She lives in Nome, and she came all the way to Orlando in hopes of spreading the word about Flo's disappearance, not knowing at all that we were actively investigating her case. him close mom and Blair they wanted him to come up and look full case we had a meeting with the city manager and with the new chief of police a very weird meeting she had met with the city manager and the known police chief investigator Crockett the guy I was never able to get a hold of, passed our brief exchange in the precinct's lobby.
As a concerned citizen, she wanted an update on where the investigation stands. And according to Rachel, during this meeting, it took a weird turn.
It was revealed to her that the known police department has no case file on Florence Okpialik

in their possession at all.

Basically,

they said that they don't have a case file on flow.

The Nome Police Department

has not kept a case file

on flow.

Except the FBI took it over.

I emailed the FBI

and they just deferred me

back to the Nome PD.

So, what's going on here? I asked a bunch of questions like, when did the FBI take over this case? They said just soon as the FBI landed in known. So all these years, that Flo's family has been calling for an update should they have been directed to the FBI.
The new chief was extremely uncomfortable and just not wanting to answer questions. It was just very weird.
The information wasn't matching up. Years ago, the FBI came in to help search for a couple of days.
But that was almost four years ago now. And I hope this doesn't mean that there's literally been no investigation since then.
So it's all very shady and suspicious. How does the FBI have jurisdiction if it's not on federal, it wasn't, the crime wasn't on federal land, and the suspect that we know of, none of them are natives.
And they said, well, we asked the FBI to come up here so we gave them the case.

I was like, so can you just ask for it back?

And they're like, well, like, it's just, they're just telling me bullshit.

They're just telling me bullshit. That isn't true.

What a mess.

Rachel had an idea to bring up another retired officer from Homer, Alaska, to personally investigate Flo's case. And he wants to do it.
And apparently, despite all the chaos in the known police department, there's money in their budget to hire him. In Rachel's meeting, this was one of their primary topics.
So I don't know how it's all going to pan out, but that's really what we're pressing for right now is just we need pressure on the city to work with him, regardless of what kind of fallout there is. Like you guys already fumbled this so badly.
Let's just quit messing around. Yeah.
It felt like for three years, there's absolutely nothing done on this case.

So if all this is true, excluding random tips from the community, it could mean that literally since September of 2020, law enforcement has not been investigating this case.

Or at least that there's no case file to show they have.

Or they conduct interviews and just don't write it down?

I really don't know here. But the whole thing is problematic, no matter what.
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Hey, Payne Lindsey here. If you're looking for another investigative show to add to your listening queue, check out Spotlight, Snitch City, the brand new podcast from the Boston Globes award-winning Spotlight team, which is the same team behind the hit podcast Murder in Boston.
Snitch City brings you inside the secret world of police informants through one small city at the forefront of America's drug war. New Bedford, Massachusetts.
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Friends and family of Florence have been hard at work for almost four years now,

doing their own investigation.

We've heard from Diaila, Sue, Wendy, her sister Blair, Rachel, the local journalists.

They've all collectively taken matters into their own hands and frankly, because they had to.

Those first 48 hours after

someone goes missing are incredibly

crucial. The more we can

know about that time period, the

closer we can get to fitting any of these

pieces together. Who

was around back then?

What were they saying? What was it really like on West Beach? And what can we possibly learn from that all these years later? I spoke to another friend of Flo's who wishes to keep her name anonymous. From day one in this case, she has undoubtedly been a leader in the community's search efforts.

No NPD didn't go out till day four.

Didn't do the community-wide sweep until day six.

It's when we called them, asking if they had any active strategies for Florence Octiolic.

They laughed at me.

The day after Flo went missing, she was searching up and down the beaches, interviewing people on her own, and documenting all of it in real time. I'm just going to make a video.
And we got to go to that tent and that tent. This is what miners do to our land.
They come here, they live here illegally, they tear up our land, they leave their trash, they bring drugs, they rape our women, they steal our women. Nobody does anything about it.
We want justice for flow. She sent me a video from their very first search, making their way through the tent camps on West Beach.
It's an extremely important moment captured in time. Somebody on this beach has something to do with Flo's disappearance.
In the video, you can see dozens of tents lining the shore. Some ATVs, old beat-up trucks, small John boats, and washed-up trash and debris everywhere.
It looks like a junkyard. They were looking under tarps, digging through the sand, in search of any sign of Florence.
Flo, give us your energy. Yeah, Flo.
Is that where the footprints are? Mm-hmm. Hey, look for female footprints, guys.
When we found her footprints on the mudflats, they refused to come out.

She was on West Beach at a gold miner's tent. A lot of people have talked about how he's involved with the drugs in them.
The man she's referring to is Oregon John. It gets really strange.
She told me that the chief of search and rescue approached Oregon John's tent on West Beach and he personally retrieved Flo's cell phone from him. The chief of search and rescue, he told us that he went and talked to John himself and he got Flo's phone from him.
He verbally told a whole room of people at the search and rescue meetings. He told us that he went and talked to John himself.
John was very kind, very calm, and he took Flo's phone from him. So if Flo went somewhere else, besides Oregon John's tent that night, she did so without bringing her shoes, shirt, jacket, and her cell phone.

Flo's friend also talked to the occupants of several other tents that were adjacent to Oregon John's.

Other neighboring gold miners, they heard her screaming.

They talked about how he took her on a four-roller up the beach, never came back with her. A story she was told by one of the miners camping next to Oregon John's tent was the same story I'd heard before from Wendy and Blair.
Flo on the back of the four-wheeler and went up West Beach and he didn't come back till morning, but he came back without her. Remember the story that Sue had heard about Flo's last known communication on her cell phone that night? Right before Flo's phone died, she said, I'm in the bushes with some people and they're passing something around and I don't feel safe.
She tracked down the friend who Flo actually talked to that night and she messaged her directly about her last exchange with her. This is the last known communication from her cell phone.
I was talking to her the night she was missing. I asked her if they were on drugs.
She said they were in the bushes throwing the drug out to her. She said there were three men.
I don't remember the names. A few had nicknames as names.
Nicknames. The last phone call Florence made on the night she went missing paints an eerily similar picture to that theory we heard about from Kelly, the lady who sent out those text messages.
Except there was one major difference. In the messages from Kelly that I saw that Sue showed me, she described two men and one woman.

But in Flo's last known phone call to her friend,

Florence herself says she is with three men.

Some of them have nicknames.

She said there were three men.

I don't remember the names.

A few had nicknames as names.

A crucial and unique detail that's different than what Kelly was saying in all of her text messages. Speaking of Kelly, Flo's friend was also aware of this theory.
She'd seen those messages too. But she also had a very odd personal exchange with Kelly during the first couple days of the search.
Kelly made a comment that stuck with her forever, and it's reshaped her entire perspective on Kelly's theory. I think *** was involved in some way.
She's referring to Kelly. As soon as Flo went missing and as soon as they started holding search and rescue meetings, a few days after the meeting started, she showed up and she was like, I think you need to look a lot closer than you're looking.
And I think you need to research areas that you've already searched. I think she's a lot closer than you guys think.
Why would Kelly think that? Does she know that?

I have a screenshot of her basically admitting that

Swell was dead in her presence

a day after.

It does tie back to John.

I've been sent the screenshots

of her exchange with Kelly

and the story goes a lot different.

She asked Kelly,

was John a part of it,

or was it just these other two guys?

Kelly responded,

no, it was John and my ex-boyfriend

that did something to her, I believe.

But I believe in my heart

that John and my ex-boyfriend are the ones that did something to her, I believe. But I believe in my heart that John and my ex-boyfriend are the ones that did something.
Hmm. Why are there two different versions of this story? Where was Oregon John's name in all the other messages I've seen? She also asked Kelly, quote, how did they move her? Kelly responded and said, that I don't know, because they made me leave.
It was John and my ex-boyfriend that hurt her, I believe. These are pretty big statements.
Close friend then said, I just want to clarify what I'm hearing.

You weren't a part of any of it,

but you happened to be near her presumed dead body

and they made you leave before they moved her?

Kelly said,

Yes.

They wouldn't even let me inside.

And I said,

I just wanted to clarify what I'm hearing.

You weren't a part of any of it,

but you happened to be near her, presumed dead, and they made you leave before they moved her. And she said, yes, they wouldn't even let me inside.
She's referring to the tent. So I think Flo is in the tent.
These are pretty big statements. At one point when we were searching for Flo, we saw high school girls walk into his tent.

We were turning young girls away from his tent.

I think they had a drug operation.

I also have video footage of John and his neighbors that were supposedly involved, moving their entire camp.

If Kelly is telling the truth, then she clearly has a conscience.

She's texted all kinds of people

about this story.

But reading somebody's messages

is entirely different than talking to the real person.

I need to talk to the real Kelly.

I think she was their bug on the inside,

feeling guilty and doesn't want to be convicted.

And that's why she's trying to stay anonymous. I think she's a huge accomplice because they're all part of the drug affiliation here in Nome.
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This theory put forth from Kelly in her text messages

is beginning to take on a different form.

And if it's true that these individuals were seen moving Oregon John's tent camp

right after Flo disappeared,

then something happened in John's tent, or something happened after she left his tent and John stayed behind and somehow falls out of the narrative forever? But that doesn't make sense. What about the multiple witnesses who saw Oregon John drive off with Flo on the back of his ATV, only to return the next morning without her? Maybe Oregon John took Flo to meet with these other people,

but either way, according to the eyewitnesses,

he didn't come back until the morning time,

and he came back without Flo, irritable and hungry.

So if John just dropped her off somewhere,

where did he go for the rest of the entire night?

Because he wasn't at the bars.

And why didn't he say this to Flo's family, Wendy and her sister Blair, when they confronted

him on West Beach a few days later when he gave them Flo's belongings?

If she's missing and you have her things and her sister's asking, where is she?

Isn't that when you would say, hey, I dropped her off with these people, if that were true?

Or is that not the case?

You could sit here for hours

and make up a million different possibilities,

but I think we need to zoom out further.

Whether the story Kelly is telling everybody

in her text messages is entirely true,

partially true,

or completely false,

one thing remains either way.

And that's Oregon John.

If Kelly is telling the truth,

then she clearly has a conscience.

I need to talk to the real Kelly.

So I did.

I got a hold of her phone number, and we exchanged a few texts.

She was being nice and cordial, and we set a time for a phone call. Hello? Hey, right? Who is this? This is Payne.
I texted you yesterday.

I'm working with Flo's family about her disappearance.

Oh, yeah, okay.

Do you remember my text that I sent you?

I think so.

You've got just a couple minutes real quick just to chat about what you know. Would that be okay? What? Cannot be reached at the moment.
Please leave a message after the... Pretty sure she blocked me.

What is actually happening here?

A few days later, I texted her again.

And again, she was very nice and cordial.

I asked to talk about her text messages that alleged Flo was murdered that night.

And again, we arranged the time to talk.

Hello? Hey, it's Payne. Can you hear me? Payne Lindsey, I was just texting you.
Oh. Yeah, about Florence? Yeah.
Do you have a few minutes just to talk real quick? I guess. I already talked to you.
Yeah, but you hung up on me last time or we lost service or something. Stop.
We never talked about it. Yes, we did.
I remember we did. Are you sure it was me? It might have been somebody else.
No, it was you. I remember me.
We had texted about it, but we never talked on the phone about anything. Bye.
Hmm? What is going on right now? Does she actually not remember? I've texted her before each call, and she's texted me back every time, clearly understanding what we're talking about. I think.
I feel like I'm losing my mind. Hello? Do you have any comments about the text you sent about Florence Okpialik being chopped up? Do you have any comments on that? I'll take that as a no comment.
I really don't know what to make of this. But as a source of potentially crucial bombshell information, this is starting to feel a little shaky and unreliable.
In a way, it seems like I've made a complete 180 back around here. Kelly, the one who's saying this stuff, has altered key points in her story over and over again.
Based on that, in my own exchanges with Kelly, I feel like it's only natural to start to question things. Something is just off here, and I'm not even referring to the fact that she didn't want to talk to me about it.
That's her choice. That's fine.
But it was almost like she genuinely didn't know who I was when I called her, even though we were just texting about it, and she knew that. I just don't know here, but there's a lot about it I don't like.

I need to stick to the facts.

I need to stick to what we know for sure.

And through that, maybe all these other things will start to make sense.

If we're sticking with what we know to be 100% true, in this case right now, then that only really leaves one person, Oregon John. It was Oregon John who was the last person to see her that we know about.
It was Oregon John who had possession of Flo's things, her shirt, her shoes, her jacket, and her cell phone. He also offered no explanation as to why he had these things.
He has since fled town and, to my knowledge, has never returned. And he has a rap sheet in Nome with 93 different incidents on it, including sexual assault, cruelty to animals, some really bad stuff.
And no matter the level of involvement Oregon John may or may not have here, he is, without a doubt, the most central character on the night of Flo's disappearance.

And he could very well hold the keys to solving this.

So we must talk to Org and John.

But I wasn't feeling very confident about that.

Everyone I've ever talked to has said he fled Nome years ago and moved somewhere in Asia. Wendy mentioned the Philippines.
If that's the case, we're in bad shape here. In the police report on Oregon John that I received from the city, I was able to learn his full name.
And so my internet searching began.

And it didn't take long before I found a Facebook profile

that seemed to exactly match his physical description.

I went deep back in the photos.

There's Gnome.

This has to be the guy.

Good morning, Facebook.

Oregon John, a.k.a. Blachon John.

Just another beautiful night in Kodiak, Alaska.

He's not in the Philippines.

He's right here in Alaska.

If you want a full breakdown of episode four, go right now to my weekly show called Talking to Death, where I break down this entire episode in great detail. Things in this case are shaking up, and this is a real-time investigation.
And if you'd like to follow it more closely, go listen to the latest episode of Talking to Death. In the intro portion of the episode, I break down episode four with the producers of this show in great detail and a lot of backstory.
Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next week. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsey.
Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner.

Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner, with additional editing by Dylan Harrington.

Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan.

Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik-Glen, and Eric Quintana.

Artwork by Rob Sheridan.

Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set.

Mix and Mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Makeup and Vanity Set.
Mixed and mastered by Cooper Skinner.

Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group.

Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team.

Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes. For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv.
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Intelligent communications you can trust. Well, I just found out that my dad lived a secret life as a hitman for the Chicago Mafia for all these years.
It doesn't make any sense. He was a firefighter paramedic.
How the hell can he be a hitman? I need answers. So I am currently on a plane back to Chicago to interview everybody.
Anybody that knows anything about this. I'm in shock.
This is absolutely insane. I just don't understand.
I need to figure this out.

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