Case Evidence 09.03.24

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Case Evidence. I'm Mike Rooney, one of the producers of Up and Vanished.

We've been getting a lot of requests from the listeners, asking to hear the raw interviews

from the private investigators' tapes. So, we're going to start releasing them.

Today, we're sharing the interview that Andy Klamzer recorded with Christine. All right this will be an interview between Andy Klamzer and Christine Piscoya.
It's the 29th of September 2016. Time now is about 2 24 p.m and we're in the conference room at the Aurora Inn in Nome.
Can you tell me how well you knew Joseph and how you guys met? I've known Joseph since he started working as a law clerk for the court because I was a deputy clerk when he first took on his first year of being a law clerk. And since then, we've been friends.
And he stayed on for a law clerk for two years. so that's how long I've known him.
So how close is your friendship? I mean are you do you know him well? Did he share important personal things with you? Some things he did. I mean I would say we're friends because he would come to my family's dinner when we had Eskimo food.
During the winter we'll have it at least once a week. And then he occasionally joined for other dinners.
Like he went over for Christmas breakfast. I don't remember if he went over for Thanksgiving, but you know, my family was like a second family to him, or a family here in Nome.
Can you tell me what your general impressions of Joseph are as a person? If somebody asked you to describe him, how would you describe him? He was really nice, outgoing, not really shy but not putting himself out there. He did keep to himself and caring and just overall seemed like a good person.

I mean, I didn't get any bad vibes from him, which is really nice.

Okay.

Did Joseph seem to be excited about moving to Juneau

and getting married to Meg and opening a law practice down there?

Yeah, he said he was excited that he can't wait.

I mean, he had told me about he wanted to open a law firm

months before he was going to be done here and said he was saving up money and he was going to Juneau often to look for a job that he could be into until he opened a law firm. And then he had told me about Megan and I was asked him how they met and he said he that was his friend's ex-wife I think is what he said and then he had told me he was excited and was looking forward to it okay and did that include you know right up until he disappeared in other words no change of heart that you were aware of? Not that I knew of.
I mean, he never said anything. All I knew is he was excited.
Did he talk much about his relationship with Meg and his plans to get married? We didn't talk about it much. He had only told me about her probably in the beginning of June.
And I think it was the beginning of June, and that was about it. You're pretty sure it was as recently as the beginning of June that he told you about it? Yeah.
I mean, I didn't know he was seeing anybody until June. What do you recall him saying about Megan and his plans? He was saying that that was his girlfriend that they were planning.
He was I'm going to ask her to marry and we were talking about how the relationship started and he said it was his friends and I said Joseph you don't date your friend's ex I mean that's that's weird and I was like that's like okay say you and I were dating and we broke up and I dated your best friend how would you feel about it he's like well I see your point you're right I said but I okay, say you and I were dating, and we broke up, and I dated your best friend. How would you feel about it?

He's like, well, I see your point.

You're right.

I said, but, I mean, if you all are cool with it, then go ahead.

He's like, yeah, I'm going to marry her.

I said, if you're happy, then do it.

He's like, I'm going to.

I will.

I'll do it.

I said, okay, well, I'll support you because I'm your friend. And if you're happy, then go ahead.
Go ahead and marry her. He's like, well, thank you.
I will. I will do it.
Okay. That's what he kept saying.
I said, okay, Joseph. You think this was June? Yeah, it was in June when he was telling me about her.
Okay. Do you know if he discussed it with Blake or X? I didn't even know that was his

name. We didn't talk about him or who he was.
I had no idea who he is. Okay.
So no, I guess.

So he came out to search. Did you meet him? No.
It was the only people I met was his parents and

his sister, Selena and Michelle, and that was it. Every time I went to the fire hall, I would just start crying, so it was too hard for me.
And then when I asked my family if I should go out there, they said no because it would be too much anxiety for me. Were you aware that he was planning to move in August and get married when he got down there? Daddy shared specifics like that? He was renting a place out in Iceview, and he wasn't really there because he was house-sitting for Judge Ash until he passed away.
Then when Jana was coming back, Joseph didn't want to stay at Jana's because he had already given his place up out at Iceview between... Before Judge Ash died, he...
I don't know when he gave up his place out at Iceview. And so we were at dinner, and he was telling me that he was looking for a place or needed a short-term place because he would be leaving in August or, you know, leaving soon.
And when I was driving to drop him off at Judge Eshter's house, I was like, why don't you ask Graham to stay at her old house? Because they bought a new house, and so my grandma still has her old house, and nobody was staying there. And I said, Joseph, why don't you ask Graham if you can stay there? I mean, he's like, would you charge me you charge me rent I said I don't know you go ask her you go talk to her because I'm like he's like can't you you just go ask her I said no Joseph you if you need a place to stay you go ask her and then he's like it's your gram though you could ask her I said I'm not living there and so we talked about it he was like well can you be with me when I ask her I said, no, you're a grown man, you go ask her.
I said, I'm not living there. And so we talked about it.
He was like, well, can you be with me when I asked Graham? I said, no, you're a grown man. You go ask her.
And then I was like, fine, Joseph, are you ready now? Let's go. He's like, yeah.
So we went and talked to Graham and him and Graham figured out logistics, I guess, to him staying at her house. and so he was going to stay at my gram's house until he was leaving.
Okay. Do you know what was going on in Joseph's life in the week leading up to his disappearance? He was just working.
Mostly what he did here was probably work, and then he helped out with the known youth court. And then when he wasn't busy doing that, he was either running or just being at home.
I thought he was happy here. He seemed, he liked it here.
And then from time to time, he would go out, you know, downtown. I mean, do you say that because you think that there's some possibility they commit suicide? I don't think so.
The feeling I have, I just don't think he would do that. But a lot of suicides, people don't know what they're thinking or can even tell.
I mean, look at Robin Williams. But I don't believe he would even do that.

I've interviewed a lot of people, you know, all his relatives and friends,

and nobody thought that that was even possible.

His parents are quite religious and it would be awful for them.

Plus, it would, you know, no notes, so everybody's left hanging.

Nobody really thought that was a possibility.

Did you see any depression issues or sadness or anything leading up to his disappearing? No. Okay.
Because he told me he was happy. He was looking forward to things.
Even in June, when we were at dinner one night, we were talking about how he was asking about the process of dry fish. How do you make dry fish? And so we were going to take him to camp and when the fish were running to show him how to make dry fish.
And that was going to be the weekend of the 4th that we were going to do it. And so he was looking forward to that because he just didn't believe, I guess.
He wanted to see how the process was. I mean, he was eating it, but he wanted to see how it was.

And so the weekend of the 4th, Meg was coming. Was she going to go out there too? I didn't know she was coming until the public, I think Friday.
We had been out and said she was coming, and yeah, I don't have a problem, because our family's pretty open to people coming, and And, you know, as long as they have a good heart and stuff, we don't, we have an open door.

And. family's pretty open to people coming and you know as long as they have a good heart and stuff we don't we have an open door um and so it would have been okay if she yeah yeah you know i understand from reading all the other material that you went out with him friday night until late do you remember seeing anyone or interacting with anyone while you guys were out no No, because it was, well, it was me, Joseph, and my sister.

I mean, I hate to say, I think Kim felt like she was at third will.

And so he didn't really interact with a lot of people

because we would just sit there and talk like we always did.

We just talked about whatever's going on or, you know, just just talking and I didn't see him interact with a lot of people how about yourself or Kim did you guys run into people you know I mean we know a lot of people and so we said hi to a lot of people we talked to other people I mean he was right there with us but and he was real cordial you know saying Joseph, or, you know, just, he just jumped. Do you remember who any of those people were that you ran into? Oh, there was a lot of people.
And plus, I mean, at the time, it wouldn't be something that you have to commit to memory either, so I guess I'm just wondering if there's anyone that sticks out, do you remember running into? No. I mean, Joseph literally probably just talked and hung out with Kim and I.

I mean, he didn't really put himself out there to be like, oh, jumping right in and being, you know, real loud. He just kind of wanted to hang out.
Do you remember anything that you guys talked about that night? He was telling me about Megan, and then nothing really. It was just chit-chat.
nothing that I could remember that sticks out is just generally what we talk about. What do you remember him saying about Megan that night? Everything I've said.
I mean, he said he had a girlfriend, said he was moving there, that he wants to open a law firm, that he was going to get married to her, and that's about it. He was saying he has to find a place to live down there and that was about it.
And I guess the understanding that Joseph and I had was that we, unless we directly asked about stuff, we didn't really tell all. He seemed pretty reserved with his private life.
I mean, we were friends, but it wasn't like questions I knew I should ask him or, you know, oh, hey, do you have a girlfriend? Oh, what, you know, and stuff like that. I didn't know, and not that he couldn't have a girlfriend, I just, he didn't really have one here in Nome, so.
Okay. And that night, did he sound excited about all these big changes in his life? Yeah, he was excited.
He was really excited. He was happy about it, looking forward to it.

How much did he drink that night?

He was drinking IPAs, and we had some shots at breakers, but mostly beer, because that's what he stuck to. Did he have any shots? Yeah, he had shots with me and Kim, only a couple.
And then he stuck to beer because he wasn't a big liquor drinker. I'd like you to use a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being passed out drunk and and 1 being sober and estimate his level of intoxication by the time you parted ways that evening.
I'd say he was probably a 5. I mean, he knows his limits and he wasn't sober because he had already been drinking before I met up with him.
How do you know that? That he had been drinking? Well, he had ended up texting me between 11 and 12 that night, and then I ended up calling him because I started drinking about 11. And I called him, and I asked him what he was doing.
And he said he was having some beer, and then he was going to go look for something to eat because he was hungry.

And I said, well, maybe by the time you get done eating, we can meet up somewhere downtown.

He said, okay, well, let me get some food, and I'll meet up with you.

And I said, well, I'm waiting for the sitter anyways, so let me know when you're done.

And that was it.

Okay. And then I called him when we were going to town, and he said he was at Soap and Suds, I think is where he got food from.
And he asked if I wanted anything, if I wanted something, he would bring it. And I said, no, I'm fine.
I'm okay. What time was that? We finally met up with him probably about between 1230 and 1.

That's when we finally were making it downtown.

And I almost think it was around, yeah, between 1230 and 1.

I don't know the exact time when we met up because we met up at Polaris.

And Kim and I got there first, and we had a drink and then grabbed a beer,

and then we were waiting, and then he showed up.

And then where did you last see him uh that night or early morning breakers i think we parted ways at breakers because i was feeling pretty drunk did he go back to soap and suds that night i don't know and i don't think i i don know. And I don't think he would if he ate before.

Because I believe Kim and I got into a cab and we had went home.

And since he lived right in town, he walked.

And he usually walked anyways.

About what time do you think you guys parted ways?

Probably at bar break. The bar closes about quarter to three.

Or three o'clock. Well, the last call was at quarter to...
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How firm is your memory about all that? It's fuzzy here and there, but I remember being at Breakers. I remember being there.
We were drinking and then going home. And then by the time I got home, then I don't remember being at home.
And then what happened the next day on Saturday? We talked in the morning, but I barely remember what we talked about. And we talked for a while, but I can't remember what we talked about.
It was just generally, again, whatever. And it happened to be nice out that day.
And I was telling them I was going to eat something, shower and eat something. We should go to the beach.
And so by the time I showered, finally ate something, got all the kids ready. It's too nice to be inside, too hungover to be inside too.
And so he said, okay. And so I got all the kids ready, went down to the beach and we were waiting for him.
And then we were at the beach for a couple hours. And then I decided, okay, well, we should, well, I said, we like me and the kids should go to camp because it was nice out and I told Joseph I said if you want to go to camp you're welcome to go you know where it's at he's been to camp before but he said no I'm gonna go look for fish and I kind of laughed and said where are you gonna find fish there's no fish yet it's too early and he's like get the mouse people said they're catching fish I said okay he's like you can go I said I'm I'm not looking for fish I'm going to camp so at that at the end of June there weren't any strong salmon runs I don't think so I mean there could have been trout but I didn't think there was fish but I could have been wrong wrong.
People were catching some here and there, but nothing like a strong run. Because, like I said, the weekend of July 4th, we were going to go get dry fish.
He was a big fisher person, though, right? He liked fishing? Yeah, he said he liked fishing. Did you ever go fishing with him? We did go fishing once.
I think last year we had went out to between Solomon and whatever is after Solomon. I can't think.
East Fork maybe? Between that point we went in a, had a picnic. Do you think that Joseph went out to mile 44 to fish? Seems like a long way to go for a marginal river.
You can find trout and grayling up there, but I don't know. He didn't tell me about the only place he said he was going fishing was at the mouth of the Nome River right here, you know, not anything out there.
He didn't say anything, but I mean,, you can catch trout and grayling, I think, at East Fork, and anywhere between East Fork and Solomon. Okay.
So you presumed that he walked home that night, but you don't know for sure? Yeah. He was a runner.
He was fine with walking, and I said, okay. And he's like, I live right there.
He would just point over there because it's actually in town to where it's when he lived out of ice of you it's right there I live in town so he could have he could have gotten a ride with you no not in the cab but it was just Kim and I okay do you know of anyone who saw Joseph or the truck back in Nome after Saturday afternoon Not that I know of. I mean, Jake had just moved in to my gram's house, my cousin.
And I've never talked to Jake about what he saw or what he thought or what had happened that day because Joseph and Jake, I don't know if they really talked. It was just like a cordial, oh, hey, roommate, you know, type of thing.
But I don't know. I know when I came back from camp, I didn't drive over there to see if he was in town or anything.
And I didn't text him. So I don't know.
I do know on Sunday, because my sister was going to have knee surgery, we were bringing her out there. And we went back to my parents to meet up with my parents because they were my mom was going with Kim and my mom had mentioned dad was I keep forgetting to ask you how come there's a blue car parked at Graham's house because Joseph was like one time when he was first moving in there he was like nobody's gonna call the cops on me right for me being at that house I said I don't think so I mean he's like okay and so my dad was going to call the cops on me, right, for me being at that house.
I said, I don't think so. I mean, he's like, okay.
And so my dad was going to ask whose blue car that was. We drove down that way, but I don't remember if I saw it or not, but I know my parents had seen it on Sunday because Kim was leaving on the midday flight.
What time would they have gone to the airport? I think I brought Kim to check in closer to 11. And I don't know when my parents checked in because we went separately.
So did your parents fly to Anchorage? My mom and my sister did because she was going to go have knee surgery. But your dad didn't? No.
I don't think so. And this was on? Sunday.
And I had texted Joseph on Sunday asking him if he wanted to go to the A&B picnic and I never got an answer and I called him once and it went to voicemail and I never heard from him on Sunday because he likes going to community things. I always offered him to go places to do things and he never answered about the A&B picnic.
Did they say that they definitely saw Joseph's truck at the house on their way to the airport? I would ask them. I mean, because I know my mom had mentioned that dad has been wondering whose car is there.
Because for a long time there was no cars there. And it was just us moving because i mean i know mom had said dad was wondering and generally we'll ask each other questions if we know something and so mom said dad was wondering whose car was there because his car was always there because he always walked because he was in town did jake have a car there no so he didn't have a vehicle? No, because I think his was down at the time.
What kind of car is it normally? Before Jake moved out of his dad's, and before the car broke down, I think it was a green, I can't even tell you the brand or what type, it's a small green car. Do you remember Joseph ever talking about anyone that he was having problems with and known? He never said anything, but I don't think he's the type of person to have someone be mad at him because he would confront, if there was an issue, he would ask him about it.
I don't think he was that type of person to have anybody mad at him. What about someone related to his work at the court? He kept to himself at the court.
I mean he would come up and do his work and talk to us but he generally kept to himself in his office and I don't think he had any misunderstandings with anybody but it wouldn't be one of those questions I would ask Joseph oh hey Joseph is anybody mad at you today or you know he didn't say anything so I didn't know to ask. So do you know anything about this whole issue with Jake's .308 rifle that Kevin had taken over to their house and put down in the storage room after Joseph went missing? We were talking about it at Graham's one, I never asked Kevin about it, but Bonnie and Graham had mentioned that Kevin had brought a gun over to Jake's house, and I don't know if Kevin told anybody or, or what.
Bonnie had just said that it was in the grocery room, I think is where he said he put it. Was that like a storage area downstairs? Yeah.
Whose rifle was it?

Bonnie was saying it was Jake's, but I don't know if Jake ever had any guns. I mean, I don't know.
I would imagine Jake having guns when his dad goes hunting. Sure, yeah.
So I would imagine Jake... You're a guy looking out here, you'd think so.
Yeah. And you don't recall Joseph ever saying anything about fishing in the Solomon River out that far, out of 44 miles? No.
I'm sure he would have an idea about fishing out there, because like I said, when we went to that picnic, my dad had went fishing. But he never said anything, yeah, I'm going fishing out there or was that picnic near there there's a straightaway that happens out there and i don't even know what mile it is but you could turn off to the right and then you go down a little bit and there's this little pit area where we next to the river where we had a picnic this is the area where his truck was between the two bridges.
Does that bridges. I don't know.
I haven't gone out there since Joseph has been missing. It's hard enough for me to go to camp.
So, I just have bad anxiety. I want to go out there to see where it is, but like...
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Did Joseph ever talk with you about running the ridges out in that area? He had mentioned a hike that when we were out on that ride on the picnic, he said he wanted to do the Shovel Mountain hike. It was a real nice hill that you could just run up and run back down, and he said he wanted to do that, and someday he'll do it,

and that this was on the picnic when we were going back into town.

I knew he went hiking, but the only other hike he mentioned about doing

was like a 473 or 437 hike, but I think that one's on the Teller Road.

I don't know.

Where is Shovel Mountain?

It's in that general area.

I would have to go out there to show you to know where it's at. So did they search there? I don't know.
Did anyone tell them about that? I want to say, I think Kirk mentioned that they were around between, they looked all around the Shovel Mountain, East Fork, where his car was, by that mine dredge area in that area out there,

but just all around that area.

How well do you know Jake,

and what are your general impressions of him?

I used to babysit Jake when he was younger,

and through the years we would always have family dinner,

but to be like, oh, yeah, I hang out with Jake all the time,

it wasn't like that because I was a lot older and had my own things going on and never really hung out with jake i did support him when he was playing basketball and doing high school stuff i supported him i would go watch the games here you know i'd ask how everything's going and then he left for school and just really didn't talk to Jake.

Did he go to UAA?

Yes.

And so how long did he just go, two years?

I don't even, I don't remember.

I know this last year he's gone.

So was he gone for the whole school year in Anchorage?

I think so, because he was working at Credit Union 1 here, and then he transferred there so he could go to school so he was going to school and working. Did you say where he was living in Anchorage? I think Bonnie said him and Renee had a place in Anchorage of their own but I don't know where it was.
And that would have been this past year? Mm-hmm within the last year. But they aren't together anymore? No.
Do you know why? I don't. Do you know who Joseph would usually hang out in Nome with other than, you know, yourself? Mm-hmm.
Just, I don't even know. I mean, I know he had other friends, but Joseph is like a home-type person.
Like, he was okay with staying at home. Mm-hmm.
And then the job he had, he didn't really want to go out and be out because of the job he had. So was it unusual for them to go out drinking like that on Friday night? From time to time, Joseph would.
He wouldn't do it often, but he would. I know he never went out when he was doing judge work on the weekends i think it's very likely that he was killed by a bear and the searchers found no trace of it i don't think that would be possible i mean if he was killed by a bear where's his stuff the the searcher from what i've heard the searchers have found nothing

I mean no

backpack or no clothes

no nothing so I

if he was killed by a bear

something has had

to show up right I mean

theoretically that's

I mean yeah I mean that's normally

they find stuff so

and from what I've heard they haven't found anything

nothing

is there anything I haven't asked you about

that you think might be important

Thank you. that's normally they find stuff so.
And from what I've heard they haven't found anything, nothing. Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you think might be important? I mean it's I've told everybody everything that I know and what I've thought.
When I was talking to the private investigator that they hired he was like well what do you think happened to him and he started saying these things and asking me if that's what could have happened and I was telling him is that if I'm saying yes that could have happened then that's me giving up hope for anybody finding Joseph. He's like do you think he could have been murdered, killed by a bear or other things and I said I don't know because the way I feel is that if I say yes to something that it I'm losing hope finding him.
And I don't want to give up because just thinking about it negatively just I don't think would be the way to go. And after I told him that, I said, I can't think negative about what may or could have happened to Joseph because the second I start doing that, that means I'm giving up and I don't want to and he tried asking why and I said because that's just the way I feel and I believe is that the second I start thinking in my mind of everything that could have happened and that means I'm giving up or starting to lose hope and I don't want to and so he quit asking me questions about it, but I was just like, I don't want to lose hope.
If you really want to engage in the conversation here, by all means, go join the Up and Vanish Discord. I put a link to the Discord in the episode description.
Also, if you want to stalk me on Instagram, it's at painlindsay. And if you're not already, you should definitely follow Up and Vanished on Instagram at upandvanished.
See you next week. Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey.
Your host is Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney.
Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Lead producer is Mike Rooney along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner.
Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan.
Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik. Thank you.
Hi, I'm Grace, host of Red Rum True Crime Podcast.

These cases focus on the true victims of crime.

Why not jump in at episode 114,

the tragic murder of Jasmine and Aaliyah.

The main suspect in this case gave an extremely bizarre interview to a number of press reporters whilst he was drunk and reportedly high. He speaks about an awful lot on camera and has this completely inappropriate laughing and chuckling response when talking about the case.
He may even have thought he was going to get away with the double murder he'd been accused of but what he didn't know was that two undercover officers were on their way to catch him out and

he easily and willingly took the bait. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts.
Just search Red Rum True Crime. That's Red Rum, murder backwards, R-E-D-R-U-M, true crime.
well i just found out that my dad lived a secret life as a hitman for the chicago mafia for all these years it doesn't make any sense he was a firefighter paramedic how the hell can he be a hitman i need answers so i am currently on a plane back to Chicago to interview everybody, anybody that

knows anything about this. I'm in shock.
This is absolutely insane. I just don't understand.

I need to figure this out.