Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 hi everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 2 Today

Speaker 2 we are having an absolutely beautiful conversation with the

Speaker 2 incomparable, brilliant, honest, just funny, funny, and absolutely wonderful Hannah Gadsby.

Speaker 2 I have been wanting to speak to Hannah Gadsby for so long, ever since I

Speaker 2 laughed and cried and raged my way through Nanette.

Speaker 2 And then after that with Douglas.

Speaker 4 Which are her stand-up specials.

Speaker 2 Right, her stand-up Netflix specials.

Speaker 2 And we talk about all kinds of beautiful things today, telling stories and parenting and especially neurodiversity, which I know, sister, you've been wanting to talk about on the pod for so long.

Speaker 5 I'm so thankful that she came on and shared so honestly and quite a lot about

Speaker 5 she has a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. And I think it's so important to hear

Speaker 5 from women about that. Her story is fascinating.
She went through really hard times. She was unhoused.

Speaker 5 She was in terrible situations a lot of her life and was only diagnosed when she was 30, basically. I think it was a year before Nanette came out.
And a lot about her story has to do with living

Speaker 5 without this knowledge of herself, but just living in kind of an ill-fitting world. And it is a place where a lot of girls are.
And

Speaker 5 it's just so important that people learn about this and the way that

Speaker 5 girls do not exhibit the same signs of autism that boys do. We live by a male model of autism.
So that means they're looking for the same markers.

Speaker 5 That means when they're ultimately diagnosed, they're getting the same therapies. When in fact, the

Speaker 5 girl brain with autism looks different than the boy brain with autism. It results in a lot of real damage.

Speaker 5 42% of girls are diagnosed with another mental disorder instead of autism when they go to get checked. And boys are diagnosed two years earlier.

Speaker 5 So there's a lot of girls struggling out there with depression and anxiety. And like Hannah, not being diagnosed until they're 30.

Speaker 5 And in her words, not haven't participated in life up to that point because they've been so sidelined by it.

Speaker 5 This conversation can help a lot of us to understand ourselves and give us insight into people we love.

Speaker 5 And importantly, it can help us reframe neurological diversity as differences, not as deficiencies.

Speaker 5 What Hannah shared about the exhaustive preparations she has to do to navigate everyday things, including this conversation today, was so important.

Speaker 5 It reminded me of something I read that explained how we all have a social brain. a network made up of multiple regions throughout the brain that help us navigate social interactions.

Speaker 5 And there's a new line line of unpublished research suggesting that in girls and women with autism, they keep their social brain engaged, but every bit of social interaction may be mediated through the prefrontal cortex, which means that whereas many of us are able to deal with social interactions instinctively, For girls and women with autism, processing every social interaction can be the equivalent of doing high-grade math.

Speaker 5 So when she talks about being exhausted, having to prepare, prepare, how depleting it is, it's because every social cue is essentially an equation of long division, which is the labor neurodivergent folks do in masking to be in relationship and community.

Speaker 2 Masking is mimicking, trying to replicate what other people are doing, but they're not doing it by instinct.

Speaker 5 I just am really... thankful that she goes into that detail that for us because I think it's really important as empathy for

Speaker 5 people understanding the people that we love, that that's the work they're doing every day, the work that we take for granted, just getting a feeling.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it's so important when talking about neurodiversity to actually be talking to

Speaker 2 people who are neurodivergent. And with that,

Speaker 2 we're going to give you Hannah Gatsby. Hannah Gadsby stopped stand-up comedy in its tracks with her multi-award winning show, Nanette.

Speaker 2 Its release and subsequent Emmy and Peabody wins took Nanette and Hannah to the world. Hannah's difficult second album, which was also her 11th solo show, was named Douglas after her dog.

Speaker 2 Douglas covered Hannah's autism diagnosis moving beyond the trauma at the center of Nanette and instead letting the world see the view from Hannah's brain, one that sees the world differently but with breathtaking clarity.

Speaker 2 The show was an Emmy-nominated smash hit. and is available throughout the world on Netflix.
Hannah's award-winning shows are a fixture in festivals across Australia and the UK.

Speaker 2 Her first book, 10 Steps to Nanette: A Memoir Situation, which I adored, is out now.

Speaker 2 We're talking today to someone

Speaker 2 who I think on my list of top five humans guests that I was dying to have on this show

Speaker 2 was right up there.

Speaker 3 Number eight.

Speaker 2 And that is her. Her name is Hannah freaking Gatsby.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 3 Thank you for the middle name. I have one.
Got one now.

Speaker 2 Okay. Hannah, your new book

Speaker 2 is so freaking wonderful.

Speaker 2 Abby knows. I picked it up and then disappeared from my family for three days because I just thought it was so wonderful I couldn't put it down.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Did I mess with your head?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Cool. Yeah, it did.
We'll get into that. For sure.

Speaker 5 It did.

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 3 love

Speaker 3 the whole

Speaker 2 journey that you take us through with your mom. I love your mom.
You love your mom. Everyone who reads your new book is going to love your mom.

Speaker 2 And when you were a kid, your mom was harassing you so relentlessly about some dirty glasses in your room that eventually you blew up, exploded, started cursing at her.

Speaker 2 And she was happy because she said, I just wanted you to feel.

Speaker 2 And then later she said, After you got your autism diagnosis, I think you were 30.

Speaker 3 Spoiler that, right?

Speaker 3 Spoiler that.

Speaker 2 She said,

Speaker 2 I thought there was a lot going on inside you. You were like a tin of baked beans, and my tin opener wouldn't work on you.

Speaker 3 Oh.

Speaker 3 Yeah, to

Speaker 3 just give that some context.

Speaker 3 My mom is a very distinct character. and in my

Speaker 3 performance life, I impersonate her. So, just to give that

Speaker 3 how it really was for me, she said, This, oh, yes,

Speaker 3 I always knew you were, there was a lot going on inside you. You were like a

Speaker 3 tin of baked beans, and my tin opener was broken, I just couldn't get in.

Speaker 3 And I said to her, I said, Mum, you don't like baked beans.

Speaker 3 And she said, No,

Speaker 3 No, I don't.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
She's a very funny lady. Very funny lady.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I was a bit locked up as a kid. I didn't have great language

Speaker 3 access. So, and also,

Speaker 3 you know, the feelings thing was, you know, because I'm not typical.

Speaker 3 It's frustrating, I think, for neurotypical parents to connect with neurodivergent children.

Speaker 3 But you get there.

Speaker 2 So what was that like as a kid growing up as you

Speaker 2 without a diagnosis?

Speaker 3 Well, it's, you know, it's difficult. I think it might be worth like just clearing up what autism is.

Speaker 2 Great.

Speaker 3 Exactly, you know, because there's a lot of, we'll just call it misinformation.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I think,

Speaker 3 so what it basically is, like, if you want to boil it down to its bare bones minimum, is it's

Speaker 3 what animates you, what drives your central nervous system.

Speaker 3 In neurotypical people, it is

Speaker 3 sort of what is important. So what drives your behavior is what is important and where you are in the social tribe.
In neurodivergent people, it is what's interesting.

Speaker 3 And that can vary. Like there's a saying is like,

Speaker 3 you know, what's, you've met one person on the spectrum, you've met one person on the spectrum. The particular place that I am on the spectrum is I have

Speaker 3 you know sensory processing disorder.

Speaker 3 Now people can have sensory processing disorders and not be on the spectrum. That's an important

Speaker 3 distinction to make. But where I'm I do have that.
I am turned all the way up to no filters.

Speaker 3 I'm very heightened. Some of them cross over a little bit.
My taste and smell are kind of

Speaker 3 sometimes sometimes

Speaker 3 indistinct.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 then there are two others,

Speaker 3 vestibula and procioception.

Speaker 3 So I'm hyper-aware of my space. Clutter distresses me.

Speaker 3 And I have

Speaker 3 the

Speaker 3 vestibula is a

Speaker 3 balance issue. So I don't know where my head is in space.

Speaker 3 So I fall over a lot. I have a lot of accidents.
I hurt myself a lot. So it's just like this invisible disability that becomes very visible because I break my leg.

Speaker 3 I'm currently got a broken leg because I fell, but didn't know that I was falling until it's too late. And so

Speaker 3 I broke my leg.

Speaker 3 It's fun times, good times.

Speaker 3 Last year I had a total knee reconstruction. Same thing was falling before,

Speaker 3 you know, and it was too late. Gravity, gravity was always already my bitch.

Speaker 3 And so I had my knee busted. And the year before that, I busted my nose open.
And then it was a broken toe. Like, I have, you know, if someone were to dig me up and, you know, after I was dead, like

Speaker 3 hundreds of years at time, they would dig me up and go, wow, I think we found a warrior princess.

Speaker 3 You know, because my skeletal system is, you know, it's, it's like got the marks of war, but really, I fell over walking.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So I'm playing a long game, really.

Speaker 3 So these, these are sort of, you know, not knowing these things that you, you know, I have sensitivities was was kind of a lot of the kid because you see people behave in a way and interact and socialize in a way and you try and do that and I would get completely overwhelmed or disassociate because, you know, I have an oral processing disorder.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I can't tune in to noise very well and sort it out in my head. So it's very easy for me to just tune out and listen to people who are speaking English and go, wow, that's a foreign language.

Speaker 3 So I have to focus really hard, which made learning very difficult. I was very lucky my mum made all my clothes, though there is a dark side to that.

Speaker 2 Happy dashy abuse is real.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 so I never had like the tag issues because there was no tags on my clothes.

Speaker 3 And she always used nice fabric

Speaker 3 in the texture quality, not necessarily the patterns.

Speaker 3 No child needs to wear harlequin sweaters.

Speaker 3 And then,

Speaker 3 so

Speaker 3 there was a lot about my childhood that protected me from the worst of my ASD. I grew up in a really small town

Speaker 3 and I was part of a large family, so I had a ready-made social network. I just fit in.

Speaker 3 But it was windy there. Like, I grew up on a really small island and on the northwest coast and it's like it's famous for its fresh air who knew i did i just told you and

Speaker 3 so it's really windy and so i was always confused because wind throws sound around

Speaker 3 and so

Speaker 3 i was perpetually confused as a child

Speaker 3 like you know i was always given

Speaker 3 names like, you know, dithery or vague or dopey and, you know, these sorts of things. And I used to confuse people because on one hand, I could be incredibly intelligent and then as dumb as bricks.

Speaker 3 And the older I got, the more people would read into that, the less adorable I became. And people would see it as willful or manipulative because I could

Speaker 3 misunderstand what's going on and accidentally hurt people's feelings. But

Speaker 3 it would be an honest mistake on my behalf, but it would be difficult for people to believe that because,

Speaker 3 you know, on the next breath, i could be incredibly intelligent um

Speaker 3 and not knowing and not being able to sort of contextualize all that confusion for me was was was difficult

Speaker 2 you talk about social situations like social and you describe it as

Speaker 2 thinking that everyone's just saying what they mean to help fix this for me.

Speaker 2 You think everyone's just saying what they mean and that's how you're operating, but you realize there's an undercurrent of things that people are communicating in ways that you're not picking up.

Speaker 3 Is that yeah, yeah, there's no subtext for me. Like, it blows my mind.

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 3 when, you know, people are saying, I was just being polite, but really, you know, the person they were being polite to leaves and they're like, hate them. I'm like, you were so nice to them.

Speaker 3 How are they supposed to know?

Speaker 3 I didn't know.

Speaker 3 Now I was nice to the person I'm supposed to not like.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, you'd hear people deconstruct conversations and then they said this thing and that meant this. And I'm like, did it?

Speaker 3 I've learned so much.

Speaker 3 It's these things.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, once I was diagnosed, I was like, you know what? I don't actually care. You go talk amongst yourselves.
I'm going to rearrange my furniture.

Speaker 2 So was it freeing? Was it tell me about, was it freeing? Tell me about getting diagnosed. Did it feel like something had been wrong with you that you didn't understand?

Speaker 2 And now it didn't feel wrong anymore. It felt like its own thing.

Speaker 3 It felt like a

Speaker 3 like an exfoliation of shame. Wow.

Speaker 3 Because once you understand that you have ASD, you understand that there's not a lot in your control. Like then it's less about being a you're a bad person

Speaker 3 for not caring. about small talk.

Speaker 3 And then you understand that it's not how you connect to other people.

Speaker 3 It's not how you connect to the world. I connect through my passions and my interests.

Speaker 3 And when someone who's neurodivergent wants to connect to the world and to people, it's through those things. It's like, what is interesting?

Speaker 3 And neurotypical people, it's like, what is important?

Speaker 3 And it's, you know, neurotypical people

Speaker 3 interact, you know, connect face to face. You know, it's like direct.

Speaker 3 Whereas I'm into parallel play. You know, if if you want to get to know me, you go over there and do what you're doing.
I'll be in the same room doing my thing. And haven't we had a great time?

Speaker 3 Not if they want to talk about their feelings.

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Speaker 2 Well, you said when people come up to you individually to talk about your life or your feelings, you say,

Speaker 2 no, I do that in bulk on stage.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm like the Costco of

Speaker 3 human interaction. It's just like, we're just buying bulk and just a certain line of products, just one of each.

Speaker 3 And I've never actually been to Costco. That sounds like a nightmare to me.
It is. Is Costco even a thing here?

Speaker 3 It's a nightmare. Yeah.
Yeah. It's just,

Speaker 3 yeah. So it's a really bad metaphor for me because I hate

Speaker 3 big shopping places.

Speaker 3 Especially, yeah. Anyway, so, but we'll keep going with it.
So it's sort of,

Speaker 3 I've lost myself.

Speaker 2 Hannah, my ex-husband, when I was married, used to sit down and say, no, Sam,

Speaker 3 it's a whole thing.

Speaker 2 Used to sit down and say, so I heard, I read that your depression is back. I read it in a magazine.

Speaker 2 And he would try to talk to me about it. And I would say, but just read the article again.
Like, I just, I wrote about it.

Speaker 3 I did it in bulk.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I feel like I kind of get where he's coming from there. It's sort of like maybe he could have seen an advanced copy

Speaker 3 going on. This is like, you know, maybe a heads up.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 We've altered that in our marriage, right?

Speaker 3 Like, before things go to press, you know,

Speaker 3 can I help you edit your bulk

Speaker 3 declaration of

Speaker 3 situation?

Speaker 3 It is a tricky thing. Like, I think you just have to work out, like, with any relationship, I guess,

Speaker 3 you have to just meet people where they're at.

Speaker 3 When two neurodivergent people communicate, it's fluid. When two neurotypical people talk to each other, it's fluid.
It's just when

Speaker 3 the two meet, it can be really, really awkward. And I've experienced that often.
But the thing is, I have learnt the ways of the neurotypicals. I have studied these people.

Speaker 3 You know, like I prepare for neurotypical engagement. I know, I'm trained in the art of small talk because I know it's important.

Speaker 3 The problem is, is the privilege of neurotypical people is they don't have to learn how to parallel play with neuro, you know,

Speaker 3 what happened is you're pathologized. It's like you're not communicating correctly, therefore you are less than, you are not doing this right, you are weird.

Speaker 3 You know, back in the day, they'd burn you at the stake, you know, like totally think I'm a witch. Like, I think

Speaker 3 that's what witches were, just neurodivergent women. I'd totally float if you threw me in the river.

Speaker 5 I, that

Speaker 5 blew blew my mind because I heard you say, ultimately, what I'm in the business of is to demand people be more aware of how and why they think, not what they think, because that's the reality of autism.

Speaker 5 You have autism. You have to think about how you think.
That's what you do. And neurotypicals don't do that.
They just assume the way they think is right.

Speaker 5 I live with people who have some

Speaker 3 sprinkling. Neurodivergent.
A sprinkling.

Speaker 5 It's a veritable cornucopia over here.

Speaker 3 It's a carnival. Yes.

Speaker 5 And that

Speaker 5 thinking,

Speaker 5 you know, turning that lens on myself and thinking, no, this is how you're thinking about it.

Speaker 5 And that is why you're out of sync,

Speaker 5 not necessarily, there's something

Speaker 5 wrong or broken about the way they're thinking.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 5 how do you think that people

Speaker 5 who want to balance that

Speaker 5 hierarchy as it's set up right now, who want to connect with people

Speaker 5 who they love, who are neurodivergent, how do we begin to understand about how we think

Speaker 5 that is building those barriers?

Speaker 3 I think a really great place to start is not to take things personally

Speaker 3 and just move past it to the next thing. It's really difficult, I think, with the parent-child relationship

Speaker 3 because

Speaker 3 it's, you know, you don't have children don't have the language yet. They're learning the language in order to, you know, then communicate

Speaker 3 what issues are, what the problem are. You know, what might look like as, you know, a tantrum is probably a sensory overload.
And it looks like a small problem.

Speaker 3 So, you know, a parent might go, well, you know,

Speaker 3 I'm taking you seriously, but really that, you know, come on, this is,

Speaker 3 you know, like you don't like that cup, come on, clam down. But what's happening is perhaps there's something about the sensory part of this process that seems insignificant to a neurotypical, but is,

Speaker 3 you know, a war zone. for someone on the spectrum.
There's an expected, you know, bond that's supposed to happen with parents and children that neurodiverse

Speaker 3 children are always going to disappoint.

Speaker 3 And I think one of the first things is like, yeah, you've got to stop taking that seriously. And that's sent, you know, I mean, you've got to take it seriously.
Sorry, words are my gift.

Speaker 3 Personally, like, try and sort of

Speaker 3 meet people where they're at.

Speaker 3 And there's always going to be a lag with children because, especially, you know, if you have

Speaker 3 difficulty with language,

Speaker 3 it's going to take a while to sort of get to that place. But

Speaker 3 in the adult world, it is difficult for women on the spectrum.

Speaker 3 Men get, you know, there is a certain place on the spectrum that, you know, is reserved for the great white geniuses, and they're allowed to hyper-focus on their special interest and be terrible at interpersonal communications.

Speaker 3 And they're held up as the best of men. But it's much more difficult for women because of the expectations

Speaker 3 in the social network that we're supposed to uphold. And when we fail, that is a failure of character.

Speaker 3 And it's really difficult to sort of convince people that this is like, I can't do it any differently. My brain is not wired to do what you want it to do.

Speaker 2 Now what?

Speaker 3 But we sort of get stuck on this, like, you're weird, you're doing this wrong. You know, and it's, I

Speaker 3 camouflage and mask a lot

Speaker 3 and that's an incredibly exhausting process.

Speaker 3 Like

Speaker 3 so for this podcast, I had to prepare a lot. Like I had to listen to your, not, it wasn't a chore.
Love your podcast. Well done.
Keep up with your work. But it wasn't.

Speaker 3 it wasn't it was really active engagement with it because in order to talk to three people at the same time um i felt you know like I had to make sure I understood the way that you speak, the cadence, your pitch, not as a way of familiarizing myself.

Speaker 3 So when in the moment, hoping that I could hear what you're saying, process it, and then turn it around with reciprocal speech takes a huge amount of effort for me. So what might look like, you know,

Speaker 3 that's just a casual chat is is a marathon for me. And so then that depletes your

Speaker 3 energy levels.

Speaker 3 And then once you, you know, I have meltdowns, I shut down mostly,

Speaker 3 I just stop communicating. And that's hard for people if they don't want to believe that it's not personal.

Speaker 3 It's great. It's a good life.
Love it.

Speaker 2 How you just shared is so

Speaker 5 is such a gift. I mean, that's so important to understand

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 the work that you put in to showing up in a space,

Speaker 5 I just feel like that's a gift for people to understand that. And thank you for doing that for this.

Speaker 3 No problems. Hannah, can you talk to us? No problems.
I outlined it, didn't I?

Speaker 4 No problems.

Speaker 3 No worries. There's a lot of worry, but no, we're cool.
Thanks.

Speaker 2 How does ASD affect relationships? Like what challenges, and

Speaker 3 if there are gifts,

Speaker 2 what are those? Because you're in a relationship now.

Speaker 3 Nailing it.

Speaker 2 Nailing it?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Before

Speaker 3 there was a, there's a disconnect of what, you know, when I mask,

Speaker 3 I'm fine. Like, people are like, you're normal.
You're a little bit quirky, but you're normal.

Speaker 3 But you can't maintain that. That's exhausting.
And so once you're spending your private time with someone,

Speaker 3 I begin to melt down. So

Speaker 3 I will be reactive. I struggle to regulate my emotions when I'm under stress and I have a lot of trauma, big T's and little T's.
So, you know, that also affects your ability to

Speaker 3 regulate.

Speaker 3 So, you know, I can, I have been, you know,

Speaker 3 you know, I can frighten people, you know, when I'm just trying to set. I have devastatingly simple needs, but if those needs aren't met, then I, you know,

Speaker 3 can be snappy in a way that is not pleasant for other people. And so I was laboring under the attention, you know, the false idea that, you know, that perhaps I was borderline abusive.

Speaker 3 But what was happening was my boundaries were not being respected.

Speaker 3 And so I'd be a snappy Tom and they're like,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 when I'm fine, I'm very easygoing and like, okay.

Speaker 3 So it just seemed like I was Dr. Jekyll, Mr.
Hyde. And one of the really interesting ones for me is touch, because it's overwhelming for me.
And you know, there's been a relationship. That, what?

Speaker 3 How are you supposed to do that?

Speaker 3 It's all about the touch, isn't it? Ah, touchy feeling. And I'm like, oh, do we have to talk about our feelings again?

Speaker 3 And so,

Speaker 3 like, just a light touch, like, that's a universal standard, isn't it? For like,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 intimacy. It's like, just a nice soft soft touch, and I flinch, you know, like, cause that is a really horrible sensation for me.
So, but not knowing that, people take that as rejection.

Speaker 3 Like, it's like, oh, you, you know, you hate, you find me repulsive. Like, no, just that touch.

Speaker 3 Generally, lovely.

Speaker 3 But it's really hard to communicate that when you don't know. Even when I did know, I struggled for a while.
because it seems simple it doesn't seem like much

Speaker 3 it's like you know if people kept not touching me with a firm touch and just a light touch, I kept flinching. I kept flinching.
It builds up. And it just doesn't,

Speaker 3 it's a really easy fix, but the other person has to want to believe

Speaker 3 that I don't like a light touch. I don't know if I'm answering your question.
You are.

Speaker 4 I have kind of a follow-up question, if you don't mind.

Speaker 3 I love follow-up questions, Abby. So thank you.

Speaker 4 So, in terms of like neurotypical and neurodivergent, it would be, because I think, I mean, I actually, since we had our pre-call, I'm like, I think I want to get tested because I just feel like we all are somewhere on a spectrum, right?

Speaker 4 And I think I've had learning stuff throughout my life that I want to just understand more.

Speaker 4 But I think it's the role, like what happens is, is neurotypical people want to like fix this part maybe in you. So like, let's go through a process, Hannah.
Is this like common?

Speaker 4 Like, let's go through a process and work on this touch.

Speaker 3 Like, like exposure therapy.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like, let's, let's beat this out of you or pray it away. Like, what, have that, has that ever happened in your life?

Speaker 3 And like, oh, all the time. And I do it to myself before I was diagnosed too.
So like, cause I'm a problem solve, a problem solver's brain. So like, this is a problem.
I want to fix it. And then so.

Speaker 3 Like I experiment with fixing it. And it's just like, this, you know, ends up, I've had so many major depressive episodes.
It's,

Speaker 3 it's almost funny again um because it's that that overwhelm of putting yourself into these sort of situations that are overwhelming and um detrimental to your central nervous system and then you just can't cope and then it's like broadcast out

Speaker 3 um and i will say this abby like you know do if you feel like there's something that i'm saying that is connecting to you and i've been speaking in very vague and and

Speaker 3 specific terms here and it is a very complicated thing um but do get yourself checked out because if you are it'll be a game changer and i will also say this there is a very large cross uh crossover between all

Speaker 3 uh autism and gender

Speaker 3 um ambivalence we'll call it ambivalence i'm going to call it gender ambivalence

Speaker 3 um

Speaker 3 you know because you know left to my own devices like whatever but people neurotypicals demand

Speaker 3 that like front on like what are you?

Speaker 3 But inside of me, it's just like, well, it's just coming out how it's coming out, isn't it? Like, you need to deal with your feelings on this.

Speaker 3 But there are a lot of non-binary folk, trans folk, genderqueer folk on the spectrum. Because I think there's something about the gender binary that does not make sense.
It is illogical.

Speaker 3 It is what is important, not what is interesting.

Speaker 2 Interesting.

Speaker 3 Cool.

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Speaker 2 Why is it so hard for girls to get diagnosed? What is that about?

Speaker 3 We present differently. So the

Speaker 3 idea of what autism is has been based and studied on young men,

Speaker 3 white men, if we want to get specific, like

Speaker 3 the biases that exist in science

Speaker 3 everywhere in

Speaker 3 all parts of

Speaker 3 science, medicine, research,

Speaker 3 you know, exist in this. So, you know,

Speaker 3 there are women of colour on the spectrum and a lot of them are running around not knowing it because it will be different again. Because women are expected to behave in a certain way.

Speaker 3 And as a culture, we've been trained to pathologize women who don't

Speaker 3 behave in the correct way in the way that it is a character flaw. It is, you're going to hell, you're not doing it right.
You know, it is that shaming. And

Speaker 3 so, if

Speaker 3 if a young boy doesn't interact with his peers and he wants to identify every single dinosaur there is, fine, that seems normal in a way. But if a girl was to do that,

Speaker 3 often their peers will identify it as wrong before a parent will observe it and they begin masking. So the masking thing in girls, because

Speaker 3 you're watching your peers and you're like, they're doing these things, I should do these things. And

Speaker 3 so I think a lot of the time, not so much now, like it's opening up now, but I think women of my generation,

Speaker 3 that's what it's happening. Like you're masking.
And you'll find people in their 40s having breakdowns all the time, women on the spectrum, undiagnosed women.

Speaker 5 And it's similar to even our model of heart attacks, how women present very differently than men. And so women are dying of heart attacks because their symptoms don't match.
Girls typically have

Speaker 5 often a different presentation than boys. It made sense when you said the exfoliation of shame, because girls are kind of in this lost period of masking and not being identified.

Speaker 5 Then they're going through adolescence.

Speaker 5 Then

Speaker 5 they're being diagnosed with depression and anxiety. as the primary reason for their struggles.
And oh, that's so hormonal.

Speaker 5 and then they spend their whole lives thinking their lives aren't working out because of their depression and anxiety and not they're depressed and anxious because they've never been identified and understood for who they are

Speaker 3 yeah i i always was sort of like to frame it as like i always thought that my i was struggling because i was depressed and anxious but then i realized i'm depressed and anxious because i am struggling

Speaker 3 and so i never identified that i was struggling you know, that that like I didn't understand that I wasn't looking people in the eye and you know, because I would just watch their mouths move and like I wasn't didn't understand that I couldn't hear properly, I can hear properly, my hearing's as my mum would call 20, 20.

Speaker 3 That's sight, mum, but I do, I watch people's mouths, and that's that helps me put together what they're saying. Um,

Speaker 3 uh,

Speaker 3 and so it's it's a lot of compensatory um techniques that I use to

Speaker 3 get through that. But also it's about how trauma presents in neurodivergent people

Speaker 3 is not the same. So getting therapy is

Speaker 3 fraught, particularly if the therapist doesn't know or you don't know, you know, so

Speaker 3 there's like, let's talk about this thing again. Let's talk about this thing again.
And that is so stressful.

Speaker 3 Like it is so stressful to be front facing

Speaker 3 to these things because the central nervous system is not cut out for that sort of onslaught.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 it's

Speaker 3 things compound and a lot of people, women on the spectrum have complex PTSD

Speaker 3 because these

Speaker 3 small traumas are just

Speaker 3 daily.

Speaker 2 Can you talk to us about your decision to stop using self-deprecating humor about your body or about your sexuality or about your gender or any of it

Speaker 2 in comedy? Like, how did that come to you and what does it mean to you?

Speaker 3 That's a long process. When I first started doing comedy, I was quite monosyllabic and, you know, I had to learn very,

Speaker 3 you know, train very hard to modulate my voice and things like that. But, you know, I was very deadpan and just used, worked with people's assumption on who I was and then subverted that.

Speaker 3 But that in order to subvert people's assumption, you have to play in that,

Speaker 3 on that field. You have to play that game.
And even if you're trying to subvert it, you're still kicking that ball around. You're still kicking the stereotypes around.

Speaker 3 You're still engaging with stereotypes. And as I matured as a performer, I got bored with that.
That was no longer interesting, even though it was important. to an audience.
And I began to feel very

Speaker 3 disconnected. So I, you know, about eight years into my career, I started going, this, I don't make sense on stage anymore.

Speaker 3 And part of that was early on, you know, I do stand up and then during festivals, I'd work with like a gallery and do comedy art lectures.

Speaker 3 Now, we worked out, I wanted to do comedy art tours, but turns out I'm not a natural leader.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I'd be going, right, we'll go and look at this painting now. And I'd go over there and I'd stand and everyone's like, oh, we'll go over here.

Speaker 3 And like, I'm like, no one's following me. So we were

Speaker 3 quite quickly

Speaker 3 that I have to, people have to be seated facing me, stuck.

Speaker 3 And then they're like, oh, you're actually quite interesting. All right.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 so I do comedy art lectures. And what I discovered there is I became what's known as a high status comic.
when I was talking about my special interests

Speaker 3 because I'm passionate. I'm talking as an, you you know, with my autism first.

Speaker 3 It's like, this is what I'm interested in. And, you know, people love these.
They're really popular. And I love doing them.
And I felt good on stage. And I'm like, this is me being autistic.

Speaker 3 It's me, like, being funny as, you know,

Speaker 3 without masking.

Speaker 3 And in my comedy, though, when I'm trying to explain myself and go, you know, like, it's very hard for me to do observational humor because it's like I'm not looking at the same things everyone says.

Speaker 3 It's like, you, you know, you know what it's like. And people are like, no,

Speaker 3 no, what you're speaking of is not familiar. So you have to do a lot of explaining.

Speaker 3 And then, so, in that, I folded in a lot of masking. And then that becomes confusing as you get older and more mature and you like who you are.

Speaker 3 You're just like, this is not a true representation of how I see the world or how I think people, you know, like I'm softening myself. I'm, you know, I'm apologizing.

Speaker 3 I'm like, hey, it's weird that I'm like this, isn't it? And they're like, ah, yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 And then eventually I just broke. I said, you know what? It's not.
It's weird that you don't notice that people are different.

Speaker 3 And that

Speaker 3 very much informed like my desire to stop being self-deprecating because I just wanted to be autistic.

Speaker 3 I didn't want, I just want to go, hey, I've got some stuff to talk about and whatever feelings you have about what this is, you need to get over it because I've got things to say.

Speaker 3 And that is part of the reason. The other part of the reason is, come on,

Speaker 3 like, why, particularly, women, why do we have to put ourselves down in order to speak in public? Um, it hasn't changed. I get still get all the hate mail that you want.
Like, take your pick. Like,

Speaker 3 men have been trained not to like women who speak their mind in public. It's a thing.
We're not going to change it soon.

Speaker 3 We're going to have to grin and bear it, but I may as well grin and bear it being confident.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I just want to talk about.

Speaker 3 Bet you do.

Speaker 2 You do.

Speaker 2 I just want to talk forever, but we only have 15 minutes. So here's what I want to talk about now.

Speaker 3 Fast money ran. Okay.

Speaker 2 This is what's interesting to me

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 the journey that you and your mom have taken, but that

Speaker 2 in terms of the journey you've taken to figure out what comedy is to you.

Speaker 2 You had a moment with your mom where she was talking about not having regretted anything, and you said, Is there anything maybe?

Speaker 3 Yeah, well, she said this thing. She's like,

Speaker 3 I'm really proud. I like impersonating my mom.
I'm really proud that I brought my kids up without religion. I really am

Speaker 3 because I've raised five children with minds of their own. I'm really proud of that.
And I'm like, Well, don't you, mum, you pat yourself on the back, good, aren't you?

Speaker 3 And I was just sort of like, she's having a feeling, like a moment, and I missed it because I think we've we know why.

Speaker 3 And so I said, Oh, yeah,

Speaker 3 what

Speaker 3 parenting decisions do you regret, mum? And there's a laundry list I thought she'd go. And we talk like that a little bit.

Speaker 3 Like, I'll say to mum, I'm used to scare the bejesus out of me when I was growing up. She said, Good, I didn't like you that much.

Speaker 3 Like, and it's like, it's it's funny, like we're being funny, it's quite Australian. I think this horrifies some American audiences when I say that.
I was like, it's fine.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 she wasn't going there. So she was being thoughtful.
And then she just said a thing that blew my mind. And it was the sea that came to my, became my show, Nanette, where she's like, well,

Speaker 3 you know, the thing I regret is that I raised you as if you were straight.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, I just, like, because when you, when you, the coming out story is all about, will people accept you? And mum just did all this work and I didn't know.

Speaker 3 She went way back and she went to a place that not many people are at now. She's like pushing 80.

Speaker 3 And she's like,

Speaker 3 oh, I shouldn't have assumed you were straight.

Speaker 3 And I wasn't your friend. And I should have been.
She said, I knew.

Speaker 3 I'm just committing to mum's voice here. She's like, I wanted you to change because I knew the world wouldn't.

Speaker 2 And she's right.

Speaker 3 The world didn't change, but she's like, and I was just sort of like, because when you, when you're coming out, it's overwhelming. Like, you're just ready for the rejection.

Speaker 3 It's all, and it is all about you. It has to be all about you.
But the telling of our coming out stories, telling of a lot of trauma stories, we are freeze-framing on that moment of trauma.

Speaker 3 And we don't

Speaker 3 then have a lot of public discussions about these moments

Speaker 3 because we live in a, you know, a punishment society. Like we don't give room

Speaker 3 for restorative justice, let's call it. And the art history informed that part of it for me.

Speaker 3 So mum said this to me, but also because I was thinking a lot about proto-Renaissance, I made these connections. And this is the gift of autism.

Speaker 3 Like you make connections, your brain has more connections going on.

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 3 in art history, I don't know if you know this, but it's a myth where people sort of like, oh, back in the day, not everyone could read. So they learnt from paintings and pictures.

Speaker 3 And that is not correct. They learnt through oral storytelling.
I think stories would be told.

Speaker 3 Stories are familiar. And the art played a purpose of freeze framing the stories into familiar parts of the stories, points of the stories.

Speaker 3 So, you know, the most famous one, I guess, is Christianity has been frozen to the crucifixion. Now, there is a big story, but that is the freeze frame is on that moment.
And that is a big decision.

Speaker 3 Like, because from that freeze frame, you can leverage a lot of shame and

Speaker 3 guilt, because that's like, that's your fault.

Speaker 3 But there are some great stories in that whole narrative, but that freeze frame. And, you know, in mythology, it's the same thing.
It's like a lot of stories are freeze framed at the moment.

Speaker 3 A woman happens to be nude.

Speaker 3 That is a strong freeze-frame there.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 art history has this tendency to freeze frame.

Speaker 3 And I think generally our storytelling sort of circles trauma

Speaker 3 and then solves it in a whodunit kind of way. And then we don't have stories that then

Speaker 3 talk about,

Speaker 3 hey, I went through trauma, but I'm all right.

Speaker 3 Like, this doesn't define me.

Speaker 3 Fuck me up for a bit. Sorry, language.
But, you know, like older women have these stories where they can put into connect, you know, context in their entire life.

Speaker 3 Like, they're not, you know, and I was just missing those stories in the public sphere. I know so many old ladies and they're just like, yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he's an idiot. They're all idiots, but they're fine.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I just wanted to put that breath into my own story.

Speaker 3 This is like, you know, in my comedy, I made a lot of comedy out of the way my mum reacted.

Speaker 3 And it was a way of like

Speaker 3 paved the way for my own healing to be able to make fun of it. You need the jokes, but it then,

Speaker 3 you know, it stops our ability to talk about

Speaker 3 the evolution on both sides.

Speaker 3 And we're obsessed with trauma points,

Speaker 3 like as in our storytelling culture. Like news is nothing but scattergun trauma porn.
Like we always know what's going wrong, but we never know how stuff resolves.

Speaker 3 And I think public,

Speaker 3 you know, displays of

Speaker 3 resolution are important and missing.

Speaker 2 Can I read you one quote that you from your book that you said about your family sure that i think is so important so we if i said no yeah it would be weird but i would i would honor you we would respect it yeah you

Speaker 2 pass this is about your mom having a very hard time with you coming out at first um

Speaker 2 But you said our family unit had been collateral damage, nothing more than pawn porn for the juvenile and toxic political games being played out well above our heads.

Speaker 2 That is the shit that ruined my life. life.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and that's happening now. Right.
Right now, to particularly trans kids now, because we're not talking about their humanity, we're talking about whether or not their gender is right.

Speaker 3 We're talking about whether we can solve gender right now. And that's, it's a political point.
I see it. It's doing my head in.
Like, it's breaking my heart. It is excruciating to watch.

Speaker 3 We as adults are making the same mistakes. The way we speak about these subjects are in terms of like, I am right, you're wrong.

Speaker 3 It's just like, can we just, can we just agree that we don't know what the hell we are?

Speaker 3 And just, just give people what they need

Speaker 3 and not pathologize. But this is like it is happening now as we speak.
The trans kids are being politicized.

Speaker 3 That is exactly what happened to me.

Speaker 2 Some families are reacting badly to their humanity. And I think your point is so important that those families, those parents are pawns.

Speaker 2 They have been duped. They have been tricked.
They have been preached to by higher powers that have taught them to fear their children. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So how is it going with your mom now? How does she feel about your new book? Did she read it?

Speaker 3 It's all lies. I'm not going to read it.
Like she,

Speaker 3 she's a bit scared.

Speaker 3 and fair enough like you know fair enough it's her story too and i've got complete control over it um so she's good she's great she's both my parents are good i don't know like i dad was really sick when i was going through the um

Speaker 3 nanette of it all and one of my first you know one of my last edits of the book i think i forgot to tell people that he's fine because it's like he's dying of melanoma and he got some experimental treatment and it turns out it was a good experiment i mean who knows you know i don't even know what it was could be wombat blood we don't know but he's fine now um

Speaker 3 but it was like my my mum and my dad are chalk and cheese and i think say that explicitly in the book and he's just so accepting he's like oh yeah good one but mum

Speaker 3 like

Speaker 3 has a reaction, then she goes away and then she has to think about it. And then she has another reaction and then she has to think about it.
So, that's what's happening now.

Speaker 3 She's having to think about it, having reactions, having thoughts. That's why we love her.

Speaker 2 Do you feel she called it? Well, you called it in the book, and by the way, you did say your dad was okay. There was one little part.

Speaker 3 I had to add that in. They're like, We need to know because

Speaker 3 there is no resolution there. I'm like, Oh, yeah, but he's fine.
They are facts.

Speaker 2 It was a very small sentence, just so you know.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 2 but it was there.

Speaker 3 Um, wasn't important

Speaker 2 or interesting.

Speaker 3 I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't interesting.

Speaker 2 Your mom, you called it pinning butterflies. Yeah.
The freeze frames of people's relationships or lives.

Speaker 2 Do you feel scared of that now that you have that understanding that telling stories about other people is kind of pinning butterflies?

Speaker 2 I'm just wondering if you feel scared about your work going forward because I do. I feel scared about telling stories about people suddenly.

Speaker 3 Look,

Speaker 3 I think it's important to just tell stories. I think it's important to leave flexibility in the weave.

Speaker 3 The problem comes when people hold you to things and go, you're not allowed to evolve. Like that is the receiving of the story.

Speaker 3 But I think there's an enormous amount of healing that goes into the craft of

Speaker 3 a narrative. And that's what I do.
I spend a lot of time working out how to tell stories. And through that, I learn what part of the story is important to me.

Speaker 3 And, you know, working on stage a lot, my stories evolve

Speaker 3 sometimes to their detriment. So, you know, my coming out story, for instance, was designed to make people laugh.
And that's where the issue was because the punchline was enough.

Speaker 3 But I think telling stories, I'm not frightened.

Speaker 3 I have a

Speaker 3 I operate on the premise that it's okay to recede into the background and no one remembers who the hell I am.

Speaker 3 And I just work on the craft and then everything else will work itself out.

Speaker 2 And with that,

Speaker 2 Hannah, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for all of the work that you did.

Speaker 3 No problem. I would just like to acknowledge that I don't think I answered many questions directly, but I said a lot of information after you stopped talking.

Speaker 2 And interesting information and important information.

Speaker 3 Time will tell.

Speaker 3 We won't listen to time regardless.

Speaker 2 But please also thank Jenny.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 2 just again, thank you, Hannah.

Speaker 3 Absolute pleasure. Keep it real, guys.
Keep on trucking.

Speaker 2 You're the best. Thanks.

Speaker 3 Thank you. See ya.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 What I want to say for our next straight thing today,

Speaker 2 it's not really a thing. This is a next right idea.
Okay.

Speaker 2 One of the things that I connect so much with Hannah on is that her major sensitivity and her,

Speaker 2 she has incredible soundries.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 Sounds are important to her. She has offered me strategies about how when Abby sneezes loudly, I can be startled.
because there's no way I can not be startled. I will always be startled.

Speaker 2 But Hannah described for me a way that i can decide in my own self what's next after the startle i don't have to become furious after the startle i didn't know that

Speaker 2 sister i didn't know that like she told me that when abby sneezes okay so let's let's play this out okay here i go okay sneeze

Speaker 5 okay well that's not how it sounds but it's not the way it sounds that's a that's a false representation of the abby sneeze right it's an olympic gold medal sneeze sneeze.

Speaker 3 I'm just being polite here. It is.

Speaker 2 It's like an alarm has gone off in our home. So let's say I'm doing the dishes or something, and that sneeze happens out of the blue.
And I immediately,

Speaker 2 my entire body reacts. I, my body freaks out.
I am going to freeze. Startled.
You go.

Speaker 3 I'm startled. You're going to freeze.

Speaker 2 You freeze. Hannah taught me after that, I can just go with it.

Speaker 3 I'm startled. Ooh.

Speaker 3 Oh, I'm startled. Ooh.

Speaker 2 Like there's an energy of startled can just go to like, I'm on a roller coaster. Like I don't have to then become utterly furious that this thing has startled me.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 2 yes. So

Speaker 2 transmutation of the energy. That's right.
It's like I can't control.

Speaker 3 Go with it, she said.

Speaker 2 I can't control my startle, but I can control what happens after the startle.

Speaker 2 And that comes with time. So I'm going to work on it.

Speaker 2 Okay. I have no idea why I started to tell that story, but here's the next straight idea.
Okay. This is just one quote from Nanette, which

Speaker 2 daily I think about it. Okay.
And I just feel like it's very important for all of our pod squatters, many of whom are sensitive human beings.

Speaker 3 Like all of them are here. Okay.

Speaker 2 Listen.

Speaker 2 Hannah Gatsby says,

Speaker 2 when people say I'm too sensitive, I feel a bit like a nose being lectured by a fart.

Speaker 2 That's,

Speaker 2 we're just going to leave that with you. Okay.
Do not let farts

Speaker 2 tell you that you are too sensitive.

Speaker 3 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 5 I'm so impressed that you just said fart.

Speaker 2 I know. I said it.
I don't say fart.

Speaker 3 I don't say fart.

Speaker 2 But I'm saying fart, fart, fart because it's so important to the message.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 5 I have another thing that I had a moment when she was speaking. And when she was talking about how her mom said,

Speaker 5 I'm so sorry that I raised you straight.

Speaker 5 And I think that

Speaker 5 that's something that we can think about and be like, oh, that's right. But then

Speaker 5 she talks about how

Speaker 5 when she was growing up, right, you know, she'd be playing by herself. She'd say, I don't want to go to that birthday party.
I don't want to. And, and

Speaker 5 as a parent, they'd say, but you're sad. You're sad if you don't go to the birthday party.
And she's like, I'm not sad. And I think sometimes I,

Speaker 5 although I would never raise my kid with the assumption that they're straight and look at them that way,

Speaker 5 I think that

Speaker 5 I can very easily raise my kids with the assumption that they're neurotypical.

Speaker 3 Oh,

Speaker 5 so if I see

Speaker 5 a group of kids playing and my daughter playing separately on her own, I feel intense pain and I project on her loneliness and sadness

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 separateness.

Speaker 5 But that's raising her like a straight kid. That's raising her like a neurotypical kid.
I just really got that from today's podcast. I want to let my kid be exactly who they are without

Speaker 5 projecting

Speaker 5 what the world will see them as.

Speaker 5 I just want to see them through their own eyes and their own experiences.

Speaker 2 Amen. That's the next straight thing.
It's like what Hannah's mom said. I wish I had been your friend.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Meaning like, I wish I hadn't been a fixer of you. I wish I had just been a friend to you.

Speaker 4 So beautiful, y'all.

Speaker 2 All right. And the thing that she, her mom said, I thought the world

Speaker 2 wasn't going to change. So I thought I would have to change you.
It's like we get so scared for our children and we bring to them the very fear.

Speaker 2 That we're afraid that the world will bring to them. We bring it to them.

Speaker 2 Sister, thank you for that. So good.
We'll see you next week on We Can Do Hard Things. Love you guys.
Love you.

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Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.