Dylan Mulvaney On the Hardest Thing She’s Ever Done

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Speaker 5 Dylan Mulvaney is a trans actress, comic, and creator of the viral TikTok series Days of Girlhood, which received more than 1 billion views across all platforms.

Speaker 5 Dylan has been featured on the Forbes 30 Under 30 list, received a Woman of the Year by Attitude Magazine, honored on the Out 100 list, and has received a Them Now Award and a Webby Special Achievement Award.

Speaker 5 Dylan attended the University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music and played Elder White in the Book of Mormon. She now lives in LA where she works to bring trans stories to the mainstream.

Speaker 5 Her debut book, Paper Doll, Notes from a Late Bloomer, is available now.

Speaker 5 Honey, bunny. Hi!

Speaker 4 Hi!

Speaker 4 Hi, honey. How are you? Hi, everyone.
I'm in bed.

Speaker 4 But I figured if there was any podcast that I could do from this bed, it would be this one. Yes.

Speaker 3 It's perfection.

Speaker 4 Well, I didn't sleep very well last night because I'm trying trying this sleep tape. Have you seen this on the, it's kind of everywhere right now?

Speaker 5 What is it?

Speaker 4 It's like, it keeps your mouth shut, which is good because I always want to go.

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah. Yes.
Okay. I'm from Gen X.
So when you say sleep tape, I think it's going to be like a cassette tape with some sleep music.

Speaker 3 You're going to have to explain what a cassette tape is to Dylan. Yes.

Speaker 4 I do like retro things, but I'm not in my cassette era yet. No, but this sleep tape, I think I got it.

Speaker 4 I'm kind of of the camp where I think if I get one thing, it's going to change my entire life and everything will be fixed.

Speaker 4 So I bought this because, you know, they said it snatches your jaw and you get the best night's sleep of your life. I have like insomnia.

Speaker 4 I don't know why I thought that putting a piece of duct tape on my mouth was going to like get me 12 hours. And then what also confuses me about this one is there's a hole in it.

Speaker 4 And I feel like, isn't that defeat the purpose? So I started eating these like hot chips last night through the hole. And I, and, and then, then I had to take it off to brush my teeth.

Speaker 4 So I was a little tired this morning. So I had my morning Dr.
Pepper. And then I said, I don't think they're going to judge me for being in bed.
Never. It's my favorite place in the entire world.

Speaker 4 I like to do everything in here. I eat.
I write. I talk to you.
And I just think we're about to have the best. hour of our lives.

Speaker 5 Yes. Dylan, Abby and I live in bed.

Speaker 5 And we really. Yeah, we think of it as like a sleep-in.
It's like we're John and Yoko. And we also, we take office hours in our bedroom.

Speaker 5 So if the children need to talk to us, they know to come in and stand at the foot of the bed and we will receive them there.

Speaker 4 It's very they present their case. Yes.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 4 Oh my God. And Amanda, I'm so excited to finally talk to you because Glennon so graciously did my podcast and the theme was sisterhood.
And we talked a lot about. what that meant to both of us.

Speaker 4 And I got to hear so much about you. And I just kind of knew that we were already going to love each other.
And Abby, I grew up at that Catholic church too.

Speaker 4 I was listening to the Melissa McCarthy episode and was like, yep, can relate. I had a similar sort of nun experience where she said that animals don't go to heaven.
And I said, you're wrong.

Speaker 4 And that got me grounded for like two weeks or so.

Speaker 1 That is so, so sweet. I mean, I am sorry.
And I actually now call myself a recovering Catholic. I think think that it was not a good place for me to be born and raised.

Speaker 4 Oh, no, no, no.

Speaker 4 No. I did kiss the Pope's ring once.

Speaker 5 Tell us how.

Speaker 3 It's like a celebrity sighting.

Speaker 4 Well, that was actually maybe my first celebrity I ever met. I was 12 years old.
My dad took me to Rome to see the Rolling Stones. And so.

Speaker 4 in the same day we met the Pope and I kissed his ring and then I met some of the Rolling Stones and I didn't really care but I was told that that was big for some people.

Speaker 4 But you know, who I really do want to meet is Share. And Glennon,

Speaker 4 I got the video.

Speaker 4 I got the video. I saw what happened on that stage.
I never want you to talk about being meek or small or anything ever again because that was share. You are share.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 4 And.

Speaker 5 it was on my bucket list to like see share live and now i just want to see you as share live yes yes but i just want you to know, Dylan, that when you responded to my video, my share video and you said it's clear now where Tish gets her musical talent.

Speaker 5 So last night I went to Tish's room and I said, so Dylan just emailed me because my kids love you.

Speaker 4 I love Tish.

Speaker 5 Well, I said, Dylan saw my video and said.

Speaker 5 that you get your talent from me. And Tish goes, so mom, how did Dylan see your video?

Speaker 5 And I said, because because I sent it directly to them. And then I texted them and said, please watch my video.
Tish is like, you're just so, you can't be cool to save your life.

Speaker 3 I know. I love it.
You said she saw it.

Speaker 5 She caught my video.

Speaker 4 Being cool is out. Cringe is in.

Speaker 3 Thank God. It's my moment.

Speaker 4 It's all our moments. And we've got to take it.
We've got to run with it. And then I was doom scrolling at about 4.30 a.m.
last night. And I see a video of Cher on a talk show.

Speaker 4 And she said, oh, God, I wrote it down because I loved it so much. She talked about how she was like, wished that she was kind of a little bit more bad.
Like

Speaker 4 she was like, I was a bad girl, but I wish I was worse when I was younger. Oh, yes.
And I'm 28 right now. I just turned 28.
I'm definitely, we'll talk Saturn return.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I'm entering a very interesting period of my life.

Speaker 4 But I, I am like, wait, maybe I should be a little bit more bad girl before I like clean up shop and become Pollyanna. Yes.

Speaker 4 I love that she looks back and is like, oh, I should. I've never heard anyone say, I should have been worse.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 3 I love that. I feel like that all the time.

Speaker 4 You looked good, honey.

Speaker 5 Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Alf. I agree.

Speaker 4 We can do hard things.

Speaker 5 Dylan, tell our pod squad, for those who don't know you.

Speaker 1 All two of them.

Speaker 5 For the two people who don't know you, can you, well, actually, I mean, there's a lot of Gen Xer moms on this thing who maybe don't. Like this, and the good news is Dylan loves moms.
Dylan is

Speaker 4 moms are my favorite people in the world.

Speaker 4 And if I could just be around moms all the time, that would be preferred. Hello to the moms.

Speaker 4 So if I'm just meeting you on this podcast, hello. I love you.
My name is Dylan Mulvaney. My pronouns are she, they.

Speaker 4 I am a cringe musical theater girl from San Diego, California. And I am a proud trans woman.
And I'm just trying to figure it out like the rest of us.

Speaker 4 And generally, pretty happy when, you know, the world isn't throwing too much bullshit my way. But I think

Speaker 4 ultimately I'm a musical theater girl at heart. And I love the color pink.
And I love to be in my bed, which I'm in right now.

Speaker 5 There you go. You've already won them all over, Dylan.

Speaker 5 Tell them how, so like how my kids met you was during your, and a lot of what your book is, I think right now you're three years, three years of girlhood for you.

Speaker 4 but this is yes so the book is out march 11th and that is my three-year anniversary of sort of my days of girlhood series which was a very happy accident i was doing stand-up comedy in la

Speaker 4 because i i used to be well i still am a broadway performer but when covet shut all the broadway shows down i was doing book of mormon the musical and i was touring it And I knew that theater was going to be the last thing to come back because we're all sitting in a theater.

Speaker 4 So I moved to LA. I started doing stand-up and I was driving around town, you know, to do comedy for 12 people that weren't even interested in listening.

Speaker 4 And then I started posting on TikTok these videos of telling the same jokes. And all of a sudden, you know, you've got 50,000 people watching instead of 12 people.

Speaker 4 And I said, wow, this is a lot less driving. But

Speaker 4 then

Speaker 4 I was coming out as a well, I've come out a few times in my life. And I think that was the last one one on March 11th of 2023 2022 maybe now

Speaker 4 and I I was like God this is so embarrassing like it's it's so millennial core to be like making these like crazy heartfelt coming out videos and because I had you know came out as gay well I came out to my mom when I was four as a girl and that didn't necessarily work out quite yet.

Speaker 4 So I was like, well, I guess being gay is the next best thing. So I very much was like this little twink running about San Diego doing musicals.
And that was kind of my safe place.

Speaker 4 And I remember the coming out process, just, you know, I never had that much shame about it. It was the people and the church and everything that made me feel shame.
And I remember

Speaker 4 in Catholic school, I went to confession when I was 14 and one of the priests, I was like the best Catholic kid. And I told the priests my, you know, very few limited sins.

Speaker 4 Maybe I cursed, you know, maybe I,

Speaker 4 you know, disrespected my parents. And then one of my sins had to do with being gay in some way.
And he was like, well, I can't absolve your sins.

Speaker 4 And I thought, well, that's just insane because everything else I've been doing right.

Speaker 4 And so I kind of flipped a little bit. And I kind of had, that was a very bad girl era, I guess, because I just felt so reckless.

Speaker 4 And I knew that puberty had brought up a lot of my transness and what was happening to my body. And I knew that it was not the body that I was supposed to be in.

Speaker 4 But I lived out my dream of, you know, being in a Broadway musical and I was playing this Mormon boy.

Speaker 4 And it was this very bittersweet thing of like, oh, I am technically doing what I love, but it's not, something's not right. So when the pandemic hit,

Speaker 4 I started seeing, you know, on TikTok was the first place that I saw trans people. Other than like Laverne Cox on Orange is a New Black.
I didn't know trans people.

Speaker 4 And I was seeing these amazing content creators. I was seeing non-binary people, which was kind of this other foreign idea to me.

Speaker 4 And I decided that the idea of becoming or stepping into my womanhood was so far away and so scary. And how do I get there that I was like, oh, well, non-binary doesn't sound so bad.
So I...

Speaker 4 I went by they, them pronouns for about a year and a half before that first days of girlhood video.

Speaker 4 And I think of that as like, kind of like if it was like Super Mario Kart, i like hopped onto like a little cloud for that second before really launching into the game and

Speaker 4 it kind of unlocked everything because i think when you start to question your gender it unlocks every part of you and of identity i it started making these videos like it's a they question of the day and i was talking about what my experience of being non-binary was but actually through making those videos i was like well and now i'm taking hormones and now i'm growing boobs so I think maybe some people watched that first video that I had made of my Days of Girlhood series and thought, like, oh, did she just like wake up that day and decide, like, oh, that sounds fun?

Speaker 4 No, I had been, I mean, this had been my whole life was like preparing for that moment.

Speaker 4 And I had already, you know, talked to my friends and family, but I was like, we got to find some comedy in the coming out video.

Speaker 4 So I did what was more so just like a silly, you know, day one of being a girl. And, you know, here I am.
How'd I do, ladies?

Speaker 4 And it, it blew up in a way that

Speaker 4 I just couldn't have ever expected. And there was a lot of initial pushback and hate.
And then there was some good people too.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 4 I only made the second video as like, almost like a follow-up apology of like, well, no, it's day two. And that's not what I meant.

Speaker 4 And then, well, maybe on day three, I can show them that I'm actually not a horrible person. And on day four, I can show them this.

Speaker 4 So it started as this like, oh God, I got to clean up this mess in a way.

Speaker 4 And then it turned into the most beautiful thing because I was like, wait, I'm, I'm sharing things with people that I think maybe is helping them or helping them understand.

Speaker 4 I didn't know how transness fully worked. I was a brand new, fresh trans person kind of trying to figure it out.

Speaker 4 And I think that was what was really beautiful about it was to let people in on that experience with me. And that's what's so crazy.
Going back to your kids, I'm on that millennial cusp.

Speaker 4 So I can't believe that, you know, Gen Z really took to me and they supported me. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so cringe.
Wait. And I think it's just because,

Speaker 4 you know, growing up, I didn't have a lot of people to watch.

Speaker 4 Like, and if I had maybe more trans people to see on television or in the media, I think that it would have unlocked something for me a lot earlier.

Speaker 4 And it's so sad that it's still so limited, the sort of the trans visibility of it all. But yeah, TikTok was this thing that blew me up.
And then

Speaker 4 I've been trying to navigate that ever since. It's been three years, which is crazy.

Speaker 3 Can I ask one question about, did you just say that you didn't know a trans

Speaker 3 person

Speaker 5 before your transition?

Speaker 4 I did not. The first.

Speaker 4 trans non-binary person I met was ER Feight Master, who is like the first non-binary doctor on Grace Anatomy and is now one of like my bestest friends.

Speaker 4 And we were doing, um, it was like a UCB show for it was comedy, and I was during Book of Mormon in LA.

Speaker 4 And I remember looking at this person and being like, What's going on here? And I was like, Your name's Fight Master,

Speaker 4 which I was like, That's fucking awesome. Can I curse? Yes.

Speaker 4 Okay, thank God. And I, I was like, there's something about this human that is so in their power and is so

Speaker 4 confident and beautiful and funny. That was giving me permission.
You know, this is someone who's on more leans on the masculine side of things. And I was like, but I see myself in this person.

Speaker 4 And then I had a classmate, Elle Duran, who we went to college together at the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, which was not a very,

Speaker 4 I think it's a lot has changed, but it wasn't at the time very open to boys leaning into femininity. And I watched her start to make videos on her transness during the pandemic.

Speaker 4 And I was like, wait, this is someone I like went to school with and we had this past life together. And so I do think seeing other people

Speaker 4 live their life so authentically does unlock something, you know, whether it's about gender or sexuality or whatever that might be.

Speaker 4 And that's really what social media kind of did for me during that time.

Speaker 5 That's why it's so confusing about is it good? Is it bad? I mean, it did that for me too. It connected me with so many people.
And, you know, I see the bad of it. I really do.

Speaker 5 I'm a mom of three teenagers.

Speaker 5 I see what it can do by making their vision smaller, but it also, without it, so many people wouldn't be exposed to the exact people they need so that they can find themselves and their community.

Speaker 4 Well, it's kind of made

Speaker 4 most of my dreams happen. I didn't grow up in the industry.
You know, my dad's in insurance. My mom was a nurse.

Speaker 4 And I think had I not put myself out there, I don't think I would have this book coming out today. I don't think a lot of these things would have happened.

Speaker 4 And so I am really grateful, but I also know what it's done to me psychologically and in having like, there's no part of reading absolutely vile things about yourself every single day that's normal.

Speaker 4 You know, there's nothing healthy or normal about that.

Speaker 4 And, you know, what's so funny is the reason Glenn and that I think we're really connected is Alex Heddison, who is a dear friend to the pod and one of my favorite episodes.

Speaker 4 Well, actually two parts, if you haven't listened to it, which I'm sure everyone has because it's amazing. But Alex and I met working on a Lokes doc, who is one of my best friends.

Speaker 4 And Alex was, you know, directing me in this short film. And when we met, we started spending time together.
And Alex was like, I don't know about this whole TikTok thing.

Speaker 4 And it was so crazy to try to synthesize to someone that experience.

Speaker 4 And it was at that meal with Alex, Alex was like, I think you need to read this book, Untamed.

Speaker 4 And I had already known, it's funny because I had been listening to the pod. I was like a pod follower, but not, hadn't done the book yet.

Speaker 4 And I, that was about, I was like, exactly a year ago that I started the audiobook of Untamed. And it came at the exact right time that I needed.
I feel so lucky.

Speaker 4 I remember being in the middle of the book and then able to like voice note you was such a God.

Speaker 4 What I mean, even if that's all that TikTok gave me was the opportunity to do that, then fuck yeah, I'm still in.

Speaker 4 I knew that that moment happened for a reason and that Alex connected us. And I just,

Speaker 4 it just kissed me in many ways.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

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Speaker 5 I feel like our audience will remember you from Beergate. Can you just give us a

Speaker 4 little sin? Yes. So essentially, I

Speaker 4 sort of became this trans poster child, not only for, you know, social media, but for like big brands. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I had no idea. Like

Speaker 4 when I was doing, you know, a Broadway show, I thought that was. That was it, babe.
Like that was the most amount of money you could ever make. That I was sitting pretty.
I was like, this everything.

Speaker 4 So, there was no part of me that on social media thought you could make money from that. I thought that was our fun at the end of the day.
And I was doing catering gigs. And then, maybe 15 days into

Speaker 4 hosting, you know, Days of Girlhood videos, I got this offer. I think the first one I got was for like maybe OK Cupid.
It was like a dating app.

Speaker 4 And it had these numbers where I was like, oh my

Speaker 4 God.

Speaker 4 I was like,

Speaker 4 this is

Speaker 4 like, I could, what?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 I started doing these ads thinking it felt creative. I was writing these little scripts.
I was making jokes and having the time of my life. And I didn't realize how

Speaker 4 they were kind of, I was their diversity hire. And, you know, a lot of these companies had never worked with a trans person before.

Speaker 4 And I think that was special in when they did it right and when they kind of let me make content that felt separate from my identity, but I remember doing this food delivery app where I like sent them a really funny script, and they were like, Could you actually just talk a little bit more about your childhood trauma and how it was really difficult growing up to like be you know a trans person?

Speaker 4 And I was like, We're talking about delivering like groceries to my house, but I did because I thought I owed them that.

Speaker 4 And I sort of became this

Speaker 2 little

Speaker 4 capitalist robot because I didn't know what was happening to me. And I didn't know that I was capitalizing on my identity.
And so I got really comfortable.

Speaker 4 I talk about this in the book of like, at times, I think because I was comparing myself to these other influencers that were cis girls online that were doing the same brand deals and going to the same events.

Speaker 4 And I would sometimes forget that I couldn't. operate the same way they did and be as comfortable as they did because I didn't hold that level of privilege.

Speaker 4 I have what I believe to be probably the highest level of privilege as a trans woman in this world, but it's still not what some of these other girls can get away with. And so I love beer.

Speaker 4 I always have. It's kind of been like my go-to.
And it was funny. I

Speaker 4 even just a few weeks ago, a friend sent me a video of me shotgunning. a beer when I was probably, you know, 21 in the backyard of like a college rat party.

Speaker 4 And I was like, see, I did take it for the right reason.

Speaker 4 But I took the gig, not for one second thinking,

Speaker 4 oh, this could go south. You know, I would have never signed up for something that would potentially cause me pain or the community pain or even a brand.

Speaker 4 If I thought this was going to negatively affect a brand, I wouldn't have done it. I thought this was going to be great for everyone.

Speaker 4 So I posted one video, was fine. carried on with my life.
This was right after my first year of transition. I had done this big show at the Rainbow Room.
It was very Broadway.

Speaker 4 And I mean, that was like the happiest time of my life. And then

Speaker 4 the second video comes out. It was April 1st, I believe.
So it did kind of all feel like April Fools.

Speaker 4 And I remember it was actually, I was singing at this thing called Miss Cast Cabaret in New York City with, you know, Ben Platt and Rachel Ziegler.

Speaker 4 And it was like one of those, it felt like this is where what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, this is my dream.
All the things that I've been doing have propelled me to this moment.

Speaker 4 And a casting director came up to me right after the show and was like, Oh my God, I've been, I've been seeing all this hate that you're getting. I can't imagine how you're navigating it.

Speaker 2 I'm like, What?

Speaker 4 Like, I had no idea what she was talking about.

Speaker 2 Worst feeling.

Speaker 4 And because I was just, I was writing high. And so then I go and I like do a little Google, which is so dangerous, never Google yourself.
Worst thing ever.

Speaker 4 And I go, Oh no.

Speaker 4 And then I remember the next day, you know, a certain country star shot at some cans

Speaker 4 in my name.

Speaker 4 But there was never a part of me that thought that this would go on or that this would become, you know, bigger than it was at that time.

Speaker 4 And I remember being like really frustrated, like, oh, well, this is throwing a damper in my day.

Speaker 4 And little did I know that it was going to be the damper of potentially my life, if not the last year of it. And I was just confused because I always gave the benefit of the doubt to this brand, to

Speaker 4 society as a whole.

Speaker 2 I was like, well,

Speaker 4 I'm trying to be a good person and they're going to be good people and we're going to fix this together. And then that never happened.

Speaker 4 And I will say, saying we can do hard things,

Speaker 4 I was thinking this morning about what is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And at first I was like, oh, maybe is it to come out as a trans woman? I was like, no.

Speaker 4 I was like, that was actually rather easy because it was so authentically me. It was so

Speaker 4 right.

Speaker 4 But the hardest thing was to make the video that said, hey,

Speaker 4 this, you know, Beergate has happened. This is what really happened.

Speaker 4 And I need to tell you all because

Speaker 4 this isn't okay.

Speaker 4 And I'm not okay.

Speaker 4 And this can't happen to other people. And why that was such a hard decision was, A,

Speaker 4 I was like, I don't want to hurt this brand. I don't want to make things worse for anyone involved.
I was such a people pleaser. And that came even to the corporate level.

Speaker 4 And then, B, you know, that my team behind me that works with me, they

Speaker 4 did not think that fueling the fire was a good idea of me. speaking on this, but I, it sat on a, on my chest like an elephant.

Speaker 4 And I write about this in the book.

Speaker 4 The way that kind of my creativity works and the way that I share, especially online, is like, if I need to say something and I can't say it, I can't make anything else.

Speaker 4 That's the only thing that's playing over and over in my mind.

Speaker 4 So for two months, I sat in this bed, which was once like my sanctuary and then became this kind of hellscape with, you know, people outside and being followed.

Speaker 4 And I felt so small, but there was this little sliver of fight left in me.

Speaker 4 And I remember i'd waited two months and it still had not gotten better and this was the beginning or no this is even the end of pride month like we had made it through pride and pride was so bleak that year still is very awkward i was like i owe it to all of these people that followed me and that loved me and that have supported me i owe it to them and i thought a lot about the young people following me and setting an example of the internet.

Speaker 4 We talk about how negative it can be. And I knew that there were, you know, trans teens and young people seeing all these hate videos and reading those comments.
And I was like, I need to show them

Speaker 4 that I'm stronger than this and that this isn't okay and that I might not be okay right now, but I need them to know that we can't allow this to be a thing.

Speaker 4 And I felt really responsible because up until that point, I didn't know that what I was posting and what my general moves were could affect the rest of the trans community in a big way.

Speaker 4 I realized that I became this poster child for the far right and for these extremists.

Speaker 4 And they were taking every word I said, combed through with this, you know, just the finest comb possible and taking anything out of context to use it against me.

Speaker 4 And I'm not an activist. And I

Speaker 4 really like to make that clear everywhere I go, any you know interview i do because when i came out as trans i think people that's what people wanted me to be because of my identity but i sing and i dance and i write jokes so i then had to realize like oh my god this extreme weight not only the weight of like sharing my truth but now also of not fucking it up for the rest of these amazing, beautiful humans and these young people felt like it was on my shoulders.

Speaker 4 And so I had to outsource. And I talked talked with GLAAD, I talked with Human Rights Campaign.

Speaker 4 I, you know, talked with people like Aloke and one of my mentors, Our Lady Jay, all these people behind the scenes helping me navigate.

Speaker 4 And a huge help actually is another mutual friend of Alex's, which is Maury Fontanez. She's my life coach.
Thank God I was with her before Beer Gate

Speaker 4 because I remember I called her crying and I was like, it's on the news. It's on the news.
And she was like, like, baby, get ready. She was like, you just, this, you just got a little bit more famous.

Speaker 4 And I was like, I don't think I like this.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 she really has kind of helped me learn how to operate from my higher self and make decisions for my higher self. And actually, her book came out today as well.
It's called Higher Self.

Speaker 4 And it feels very kismet that one of my favorite people on earth. is having a book come out as well today.

Speaker 4 And I remember that time and being so proud that I was able to speak my truth. And that's what a lot of the, what's crazy about the book too,

Speaker 4 is that it was originally, it's called Paper Doll, first of all. And it, it was originally supposed to be 365 days of like trans joy and fluff.

Speaker 4 And after Beergate happened, and you know, I had, I had done this book deal before my first year was even done. So I was like, this is going to be a breeze.
And then it came time to write it.

Speaker 4 And I was like, oh my God, how do I feel deeply depressed? I feel disassociative. I feel isolated and alone.
How do I manufacture that right now?

Speaker 4 But what I did have was I had a lot of journal entries for my first year.

Speaker 4 And then I was like, well, what if I separately write some essays? about what's going on in my life right now. And so what I ended up coming out with is like

Speaker 4 a mess, a really beautiful, fun mess of like these joyous early days of transition through a journal entry and deeply personal things that people didn't get to see online.

Speaker 4 And then these essays about how I navigated out of the media firestorm that I was under and who helped me and how Stella got her groove back.

Speaker 4 And in a way, that felt very, you know, love warrior versus untamed because

Speaker 4 I was grappling with like, am I allowed to show people this side of myself? Am I allowed to curse? Am I allowed to talk about having sex?

Speaker 4 Am I allowed to be something other than this infantilized character that people have made me be? And that's where the title. paper doll kind of came about because I think

Speaker 4 people started to see me as this like two-dimensional depiction of trans womanhood. And I decided that that's not what I want to be.

Speaker 4 And how exciting is that?

Speaker 5 Right. I mean, that's why I can't like, I relate to your experience so much.

Speaker 5 Was it like arriving at a idealized fake version of womanhood and then having to get out of that to real womanhood? Because it's not all joy and fluff and happiness. No.

Speaker 5 When you did your second video that was an apology

Speaker 5 I and so many other people, when Tish showed me that, I was like, right on time. That's always what we have to do.
You said a thing and then apologized for it afterwards. That's what.

Speaker 4 Yes. And but, and I think that's what's really interesting because there might even be a few listeners that

Speaker 4 feel conflicted about me because of how I've been portrayed and how I even portrayed myself early on. And I think what I always ask for is patience, especially like if you think about

Speaker 4 your teen years and the awkwardness that is finding your womanhood and what that means and the fucking dumb, weird things you wear and say trying to be cool or trying to be taken seriously. Or

Speaker 4 I was like going through my awkward years.

Speaker 4 Like, and I now, when I talk to trans women that have been doing this for 30, 40, 50 years, I'm still a baby trans person at three years, you know, like, and I guess if it was dog years, I'm like 21.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 I think what is so frustrating is that

Speaker 4 I find femininity to be quite effortless for me, which is so, and we talked about this, Glennon. You asked me on my pod, you said, what is femininity to you? What does it feel like?

Speaker 4 And I said, buoyancy. And I said,

Speaker 4 lightness. And it's a bit effortless.
And it's funny because I think about all the things that I do to feel feminine, and many things that I don't have to do at all because I just am.

Speaker 4 But even all those things that I put hours of time, whether that's surgery or hormones or electrolysis or whatever that might be, it still feels effortless for me.

Speaker 4 And what where the effort comes in is trying to prove to people that it's effortless to me

Speaker 4 and that they actually make it so much harder for me to access my womanhood because of the pushback and of the impatience.

Speaker 4 And I will say, I think there was a lot of trans people watching my journey that maybe didn't fully know, like, do we sign off on this girl? Oh, God, there she goes again.

Speaker 4 Because I was so earnest and I was so excited. And it was like I finally got invited to the party.
And so I went all out.

Speaker 4 And then when this fall from grace happened through Beergate, I think there was a lot of trans people that were like, yes, greetings, loved one, that this is the reality of the situation.

Speaker 4 And thank God that happened. I mean, I'm still getting to the place where, like,

Speaker 4 how can I see this as a blessing? And I now know that this happened for a reason. I think what I'm still waiting for is the pink satin bow that goes on like why it all happened.

Speaker 4 And I don't think it's going to be for a very long time, especially with where we're at politically and with legislation for trans people. I think this is going to be a much larger conversation.

Speaker 4 And that was what's, I mean, back to mouth tape for a second. I was looking for the mouth tape of the situation of like, what's the quick fix here? How do I fix this absolute mess?

Speaker 4 And then realizing that it wasn't only my mess, this is also the mess of a lot of other things and many years of just being looked down upon and being othered.

Speaker 4 So I think that that's what I do look forward to is like

Speaker 4 finding the good of the situation.

Speaker 4 And the more that I can use that darkness and that situation that I went through to help others or to talk about it so that it doesn't happen again, that's a good thing, I think.

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Speaker 1 first of all Ernest is absolutely how I would describe you yes like holy shit the best I just like already love you

Speaker 4 I love you

Speaker 1 and I just want to say I'm a little bit older than you and a lot of what you're saying really rings true to a lot of the ways that I felt in like the late 90s, early 2000s as like a queer lesbian athlete.

Speaker 1 Nobody was really out on my team in the sports world. And so I relate very much to the first, like the first in the world.
Yes,

Speaker 1 there was Ellen and yes, there was Rosie, like yes, there were people that came before me.

Speaker 1 But it feels like, and I don't know if I'm going to say any of this correctly, so forgive me, but

Speaker 1 what you're saying is like there was this fall from grace with Beergate

Speaker 1 and you're waiting to figure out how to tie it it up in a nice little ribbon that makes sense to you.

Speaker 1 And what I can tell you from my experience is that

Speaker 1 I had to learn that,

Speaker 1 and you're going to have to help me explain this because I always get this wrong, but when you're the first at something,

Speaker 1 the amount of questions and the amount of

Speaker 1 some of my friends and teammates, like being the first at something, like you have to answer the questions that make you not an alien feeling. Like they're like, How does this work?

Speaker 1 And so, they would ask me all these lesbian questions and about lesbian sex and all the things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 4 And I were lesbian 101 exactly.

Speaker 1 And I think that

Speaker 1 the thing that has brought me so much healing and ease, and I'm my dream and hope for you, is that you find this and get this at some point,

Speaker 1 is like, we've got some queer kids,

Speaker 1 we have queer children

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 don't and have not needed to answer those questions.

Speaker 1 And so cyclically, that is my bow. That is what I get to experience as like, oh, that's why I had to go through that shit.

Speaker 1 That's why I had to go through that really horrible experience time and time and time again.

Speaker 1 And I'm an easygoing person and I made fun in the right ways and I could poke fun at myself and I can make light of it.

Speaker 1 But the reality is, is it's extraordinarily painful to be the first, to be one of the first, to have to answer the stupid questions, and to have to be the first, and to have to be objectified, and have to get comfortable with being objectified, and to have to get comfortable then being in your own skin.

Speaker 1 And then you have to reject it. And so, what I'm saying is,

Speaker 1 I see you. I understand in some ways how maybe you might feel.
And like, Beergate.

Speaker 5 Well, Beergate is Taylor Swift at an NFL game. Yeah.
There are certain bastions

Speaker 5 of white male isms

Speaker 5 that are just have big fucking keep outsides with guns next to it that are like, if you dare,

Speaker 5 that is the ire of a Swifty at an NFL game. Is Dylan at a beer commercial?

Speaker 4 Well, but. The craziest part is that I was earnest enough to believe that I could be, you know what? I'm going to go walk over there and I'm going going to crack open a beer with them.
Yes.

Speaker 4 And because I grew up, most of my family is very conservative. And, you know, I grew up, there's some dead animals on the wall.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 4 I think that that's what

Speaker 4 helped me attempt to see eye to eye and to include everyone was that I was raised in a way. that I knew that I was like, well, I know I'm going to be liberal and I know I feel this way.

Speaker 4 And I know I'm queer and I I know I'm trans. And, and yet I was still

Speaker 4 around all these people and that they learned to love me. And my family, I'm really lucky, still does.

Speaker 4 And, you know, we are in communication and it's tricky and it's complicated, but the love is still there.

Speaker 4 And that's what I think was also really hard. And I'm still trying to figure that out currently: of like,

Speaker 4 how do I not give up on an entire group of people that should know trans people and should. and what I think is really difficult is to go, okay, you know what?

Speaker 4 Maybe I'm not their trans person anymore.

Speaker 4 Those people that don't understand, I think it maybe has to be somebody else because for whatever reason, their idea of me is so far tainted that it's so far gone that I can't help or I can't teach or I can't connect.

Speaker 4 But I know on a personal level with my family and them, you know, having different views than I do, which can be frustrating,

Speaker 4 that love is still possible. And that I think is enough for me to keep trying and to keep making content and to keep putting myself out there and

Speaker 4 being

Speaker 4 wildly feminine and still loving pink and not being ashamed of it.

Speaker 4 But back, Abby, you know, you talked about like that ribbon of like seeing a younger generation now not have to make those same moves or explain the same way.

Speaker 4 I talk about this in the book a lot, but I went and did ayahuasca down in Peru. And the main thing that came up while I was on it

Speaker 4 was that

Speaker 4 a lot of queer children and trans kids and just everyone in general hasn't experienced like unconditional love.

Speaker 4 And if I, through my screen, or wherever it is that I'm connecting with people can show that and can also almost be like a bit of like a maternal energy to maybe

Speaker 4 people that don't have that or are lacking that. I need to lean into that.
And so it was very healing when I went and did that.

Speaker 4 And actually, I guess I'll just say it on this VOD, like Ted Cruz appeared to me in ayahuasca. I think I'm the only.

Speaker 4 trans woman who's done ayahuasca that has had Ted Cruz appear to her while she's in Peru.

Speaker 4 And I remember being like, what the fuck are you doing here?

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 this mother ayahuasca was basically like,

Speaker 4 these people, someone like this person, lacks true unconditional love and like a mother's love and what that really looks like. And so

Speaker 4 do not fight fire with fire. That was what's also tricky is like, There's been a few times where I've done some like little backhand, you know, trying to kind of poke the bear and get back at them.

Speaker 4 And people love that because they love to see the rise. They want to see me a little angry.

Speaker 4 They want to know that it affects me in some way, even if I'm coming at it with still with humor and love, but it's still poking. And it was like, don't go that direction.
Try to just carry.

Speaker 4 I think the best. weapon I have is my trans joy.
And the more, the more I can win, the, and, and the more that I can show and share my wins, the more that they lose. That's right.

Speaker 4 Because their whole goal is for someone like me to not be able to have wins

Speaker 4 and to feel a lack of joy.

Speaker 4 And that's why when I think of like allyship, I think if there's any world in which you could help a trans or a queer person win right now, whatever that might look like, whatever platform, big or small, that might be,

Speaker 4 that's the way that we win this is through

Speaker 4 helping

Speaker 4 us

Speaker 4 find that joy in those wins.

Speaker 5 It's really good. Would it feel like you are

Speaker 3 living your mission and winning at this

Speaker 3 if nobody in the world who wasn't trans

Speaker 3 got you? or understood you and you didn't convert anybody who has a dead thing on their wall or anybody who drinks beer or watches football. Do you feel a sense of responsibility to be that person?

Speaker 3 When you said, I'm not their trans person,

Speaker 3 is there an onus on you to convert?

Speaker 3 And if you just existed for trans people,

Speaker 3 would that be enough?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 5 Are you an evangelical, Dylan?

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 3 but I'm hearing some of that, like that burden to be that for some people.

Speaker 4 I think I now,

Speaker 4 because of my actions of going online, sharing my identity in this way, I have a responsibility

Speaker 4 to educate myself as much as I can, because then when I am

Speaker 4 on a platform or doing an interview, writing a book,

Speaker 4 I now

Speaker 4 need to have put in a certain level of effort. I'm getting much better too at understanding if something's above.
my area of expertise of being able to throw that to someone else.

Speaker 4 I write about in the book too, going to the White House and interviewing the president. What the hell? That was not my gig.
Like, how did that happen?

Speaker 4 And I now wouldn't take that gig, but early on enough, I thought that I was supposed to.

Speaker 4 But sometimes I think about having

Speaker 4 had none of this happened, had I not put that video up there that first day, I was about to like apply to my local bookstore, BookSoup in West Hollywood, as like a sales associate.

Speaker 4 And I sometimes like fantasize about, oh, what would it have looked like that way had i i kept it all to myself and i don't want to go there because it's that is ultimately regret but i think that when i take away all the external pieces and if i am just with myself i'm good i've got me i know who i am i love who i am i love my womanhood and it's when the noise comes in and when other people have access to me and my person,

Speaker 4 that that changes. And so I think I'm starting to test my limits of like, this big theme for this year is safety.

Speaker 4 Also, funny enough, I'm really into vision boards, haven't even made mine because this year is so uncharted that I'm like, and safety's the top priority right now. It's like, gotta get through.

Speaker 4 But I am kind of testing the waters right now of like, how much can I put out there without it making it on the news? And who should I surround myself with that makes me feel the most in my womanhood?

Speaker 4 Or it, yeah, it's that's it's the Mercury retrograde.

Speaker 4 I'm, I've, this past year was the Stella got her groove back, kind of, I hadn't felt joy that after Beergate for about a year, maybe actually a year and a half, I did not feel joy, like pure joy.

Speaker 4 And then it was this past summer, I was in Edinburgh Fringe Festival doing a one woman show that I wrote about kind of all of this and getting to put it to music and make people laugh.

Speaker 4 I looked out at the audience and I started crying. My first, oh God, now I'm crying on here.
I thought that wasn't going to happen. I looked out at the audience and I thought, oh my God, I'm happy.

Speaker 4 I feel joy again. And it was almost.
scary because I didn't think it was going to be possible.

Speaker 4 And I was so grateful because I didn't know if I was going to have to live the rest of my life feeling like that.

Speaker 4 And I didn't want to talk about it or tell people that I felt that way because

Speaker 4 I didn't want them to feel the burden of knowing that that's how I felt.

Speaker 4 And I felt like I had this responsibility of like being this person that people come to to be happy or to make them laugh at the end of the day, or they liked my pretty.

Speaker 4 outfits on Instagram, that that's what they wanted.

Speaker 4 And so it felt so good to be able to tell people

Speaker 4 after something like that, that you will feel, you can't feel joy again.

Speaker 4 And so that I think this year has felt like a black mirror episode in some ways, and then also like a dream. But yeah, sorry, I just went off on a tangent there.

Speaker 5 So that was beautiful. You know, I loved your book and I was thinking about the title.
So the title is Paper Doll Notes from a Late Bloomer.

Speaker 5 And I was thinking about how interesting that subtitle is to me because I think you're the earliest bloomer I know.

Speaker 2 Really?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I feel as if most of the people that I know

Speaker 5 hit a point in their life where they realize that they were living, you know, their parents' expectations or their cultural expectations or their religion.

Speaker 5 And then there comes this like breaking open where they have to transcend that. And that's usually, for my friends, that happens in middle, mid-40s.

Speaker 5 Where it just, the container, Alex describes it as like a pot, a flower pot. It just, the flower pot is everything you were taught and everything everyone expected of you.

Speaker 5 And then it just starts cracking. Like you just start growing too big for it.
And that is a transcendence, right? That's when you become you.

Speaker 5 And so you, to me, are an example of doing it way early.

Speaker 5 Whenever you have another pocket of time, I'm going to ask you to come back and talk to us about that how the fuck, how,

Speaker 5 because that is one of the reasons that I love talking to trans people about their journeys because you can see what everyone has to do, but in a more concrete way.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 5 So you're an early bloomer.

Speaker 4 Thank you. It's hard for me to accept that, but I'm going to think about it until the next time we talk.
I think that that's also what's so crazy about meeting trans people.

Speaker 4 And I guess, like, I'm biased because, you know, when I meet a trans person, I'm like, oh my God, it's my, it's my people. But I'm like, this person has had to jump through so many

Speaker 4 and has,

Speaker 4 you know, is woken up every single day and has leaned in to

Speaker 4 their true selves to the point where they've externalized it and are willing to share that with me or with the world.

Speaker 4 And I, I just, I don't understand

Speaker 2 why

Speaker 4 people are so scared of that when it is so fucking awesome. And talk about cool.

Speaker 4 I don't think of myself as cool at all, but I think transness is cool. And that's also, I think it's like, hopefully this younger generation, they aren't even having to come out.

Speaker 4 They're just like doing the damn thing. But I can only hope that they don't.
have to experience the level of vitriol that's currently happening.

Speaker 4 It's so crazy that it's politicized too, in the way it is and sad. It's sad.
And that's why I still think joy is the answer.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 5 Well, Dylan, the last thing I'm going to say is I don't know a lot of people that this is true for, but it's a small world in this world we're in.

Speaker 5 And I have never one time heard your name brought up or brought up your name to someone. where the person doesn't immediately, their face just lights up.

Speaker 5 I don't know about, I'm moving into an existence in which I no longer make my comment section my higher power. That's what Liz and I talk about.

Speaker 5 Real life people,

Speaker 5 I have never experienced anything but a softening, a lighting up.

Speaker 5 Everybody that I know and respect who knows you

Speaker 5 softens when they hear your name.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 5 And so do you just stay as sweet and earnest as you are. And when the world starts to harden you, please call me.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 I will say it's so easy to hear the negative. It's so much louder.
And I think I now look at my life and the people that are around me.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, this is the people that you've looked up to, the people that you've loved. I sat in my, God, this is just so weird.

Speaker 4 I just remember like sitting in my, I was driving up to my West Hollywood apartment listening to this podcast and thinking, oh, what does this life now have to bring in this new chapter?

Speaker 4 And I want to thank you so much because, and even with the book coming out, I think it's going to be a lot of some of that negative. And I have to remember that there is a community here.

Speaker 4 And the one you got here is a really good one. And you've cultivated that.
So that's no small feat. And I'm proud of you.
And I'm proud of all of us for showing up. But I just love you.

Speaker 4 And I can't wait to keep talking.

Speaker 5 I love you, Dylan. Come to our house.

Speaker 1 We want to have you over. Come back to our show.

Speaker 3 However, we can get you back.

Speaker 1 We love you very much. Thank you for being on and Pod Squad.

Speaker 5 Everybody go get paper dollars, everyone.

Speaker 2 Paper dollar.

Speaker 5 We love you, Pod Squad. Love you.
See you next time.

Speaker 2 Bye.

Speaker 5 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 5 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 5 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 5 And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod.

Speaker 5 While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 5 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 5 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.