Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)

Hello, everyone. I just wanted to give a quick shout out to Whole Foods Market.
If you know me, you know I'm all about fresh, high-quality ingredients, and Whole Foods is my go-to. Whether it's organic produce, top-notch meals, or healthy snacks to keep me energized throughout the day, they've got it all.
Honestly, every time I walk in, I feel like I'm treating myself to the best. Right now, I'm especially loving their spring-forward options.
The fresh halibut is aut is a must try and the seasonal veggies like asparagus and artichokes are

so vibrant and delicious.

For anyone who's looking for a quick, healthy meal, their salad kits are a total lifesaver.

Throw them together in minutes and you're good to go.

Everything just feels so light and fresh, perfect for this time of year.

Plus, if you've got a gathering coming up, their catering is an absolute game changer.

Imagine cheese and veggie platters, shrimp platters, and even bagel and lox platters.

Thank you. this time of year.
Plus, if you've got a gathering coming up, their catering is an absolute game changer. Imagine cheese and veggie platters, shrimp platters, and even bagel and lox platters, everything you need to impress your guests with zero stress.
Make Whole Foods Market your destination for all spring gatherings. Like most of you, my schedule is crazy busy, and it's often tough for me to stay energized throughout the day.
I often find that I'm dehydrated without even realizing I was thirsty. This is when I ran across Terra Origins Healthy Hydration Plus and it makes a difference.
First of all, it actually tastes great, which is a huge win for anything that's supposed to be healthy. It's packed with essential electrolytes that help maintain fluid balance, promote detoxification, and keep me energized.
And the best part is that Terra Origin's on-the-go stick packets make it super easy to have with me no matter where I am. Right now, Terra Origin is offering 25% off your first order with free shipping on all Healthy Hydration Plus and Healthy Greens orders.
They offer free returns and 100% money-back guarantee if you're not satisfied. So what are you waiting for? Visit TaraOrigin.com today and

start living your best life. That's T-E-R-R-A-O-R-I-G-I-N.com.
dot com so question first question yes Glennon yes are you still being an African auntie? Are you checking your WhatsApp?

No, I don't check WhatsApp anymore. I'm very, very disappointed.
Because Lovie and I taught you about WhatsApp and the importance of it. If you were going to be a true African auntie, you have to check your WhatsApp because that's how the messages come.
Okay. And I sent you a video from this morning.

Wait, hold on.

Let me see if I can just play it here so you can see it.

Maybe you won't hear the sound.

This was critical this morning.

It was God talking to me this morning.

Okay.

What did God say to you?

God said this.

Can you kind of see?

God said.

It's my mother.

What? And her shirt says I can

do hard things. No way.

This morning? This

morning. I came in from the gym

and she was in the kitchen

and she was dancing

around wearing a

shirt that said I can do hard things.

And I looked at her and I was just like

where did that come from? And she was like, oh, do you like it? I was like, why did you do that? And she was like, oh, this is just a shirt. I just put it on.
We both freaked out when I told her what was going on today. Oh my gosh.
So I sent it to you on WhatsApp and look at you. You missed the message.
Well,

look what I deserve to miss that beautiful message because I did not check in. But I feel like this is, this is what we were meant to do today.
Yep. It was destined.
Destined. I know it was destined because we have been so delighted all morning because we were new.
We knew we were about to see your face and we haven't seen you for a while.

I know. I miss both

of you so much.

First off, delighted all morning because we knew we were about to see your face and we haven't seen you for a while. I know.
I miss both of you so much. First of all, I should tell everyone what's happening.
There are a lot of people listening and they're like, this is a lovely conversation, but who's talking? What's happening? Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Yes.
We have over time noticed, Boz, that the pod squad here, and we can do hard things, has 40 million questions about being a woman in the workforce. Or really being any kind of marginalized human in the workforce.
And I want to answer their questions, but I am not really in the workforce. I am mostly in the bathtub.
Confirm. Right.
So we decided, Abby and I, that there really couldn't be any more qualified human being on the earth ever to discuss and guide the world really through the minefield of work and womanhood. And that human being is Bozema St.
John, who also happens to be a dear friend of ours. Can you introduce? Yes.
Bozema St. John is a Hall of Fame inducted marketing executive, author, entrepreneur, and in our opinion, a general badass.
Also the world's opinion. Bose has led global consumer marketing at Apple Music and iTunes.
She was chief brand officer at Uber and global chief marketing officer at Netflix. Bose is currently named the number one most influential CMO in the world by Forbes and has been named one of Billboard's Most Powerful Women in Music for 10 consecutive years.
Same. In 2021, Harvard Business School published a multimedia case study on her career titled Leading with Authenticity and Urgency, through which she developed and taught a program at the university aptly named The Anatomy of a Badass.
Bose was named as an ambassador for the African diaspora and special envoy to the president of Ghana. And in the spring of 2023, Penguin Books will publish her memoir, The Urgent Life.
Bose counts her highest achievement as being a mother to her 12-year-old daughter, Lael. You guys.

Welcome.

Do you listen to your bio and say, what is my life?

What did I do?

What?

Yeah.

All of that.

All of that.

Yes.

Yes.

I am also in awe.

It's amazing.

All the things.

It doesn't actually make sense because the stats are not in my favor and have never been. And so it is, yes, it strikes me as awe-inspiring too.
Yeah. Honey, do you remember the first time we met Bo? Of course.
We met Bo's. Yeah.
On the Together tour. On stage.
Yeah. That's right.
Yeah. I walked into a room and you were already there i told abby this morning the first thing i noticed about you was your clothes abby said is it okay to say that is that objectifying and i was like i don't know it's so i'm just gonna it's fine yeah i thought you were the most incredibly beautifully dressed human i'd ever seen and I was intimidated because of your fancy, were all the words behind your name? When you were on stage though, talking, what I was telling Abby this morning that I was most struck by was you were so bold and strong when you were talking about work in the world.
And then the conversation switched to your daughter and motherhood. And then this unbelievable vulnerability came forward.
This softness, you just never see both. Yes.
Either the strong or the soft, right? Yeah. You're strong and soft are both.
Do you remember meeting us? Were we rememberable? Oh, rememberable. Yes, you were rememberable.
You were rememberable because also I had seen both of you separately before I saw you in person. Obviously, Abby, clearly.
Yes. The whole world had seen you already.
I knew that. I was very excited about that.
Glennon, I don't even know if I even told you this. I first saw you on Oprah stage at USC.
Oh, I didn't know that. I was only able to be there for like one session and it was yours.
I sat in the audience and then this sprite of a person came across the stage and I was like, oh, this is the most interesting white woman I have ever seen in my life. Like I was like, oh, okay.
Yeah. Her, that one, this, this one.
And honest, you know, I hadn't heard such honesty before. So by the time we got to the Together live tour, oh, I knew exactly who in the hell y'all were.
I did not know that. And you did not disappoint.
Oh, that's good. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Still honest. Even backstage, still honest.
So I was very, very impressed by you both in person. Thank you both.
So one of our themes this year on this pod is how to know when to dig deep and stay and how to know when to stop digging and go. This is something that we have not figured out yet.
Okay. Just to preface you with that.
But I keep thinking of it in terms of you because I've read some quotes that you've said recently. So you recently left Netflix where you were the global chief marketing officer.
And you said this, you have to know when time is up and keep it moving. And then you said, you don't have to be the savior.
You can save yourself too. So Chills, how did you know when it was time to leave Netflix? Like, how do you know when it's time to leave a place? What settles in? It is so hard to articulate.
really is oh it's hard to articulate because of that hard place of trying to figure out whether or not the problem is you or the problem is them Mm-hmm. You know, when they say like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, it's not you.

It's not you.

It's me. is you or the problem is them.
You know, when they say like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no,

it's not, it's not, it's not you. It's me.
It's like, how many times do you have to say that

before you realize that? No, no, it's actually not me at all. It's them.
Yes. And then the

disappointment in that, in knowing that you chose, you decided, and they were the problem. To be able to admit that is so hard.
So then, yeah, you spend the time trying to prove that you actually were not wrong, that you chose right. That's the difference you spend your energy doing.
So that's what happens to me too. That often I'm in a situation and I'm like, oh yeah, no, no, no.
I chose right because I'm good at choosing. I've thought about it.
I have followed my intuition. God told me and I moved.
I went. And then at some point you're like, uh-oh, I don't think this is right.
Yes. But I've spent so much time then trying to convince myself that I wasn't wrong.
You know, and that it must be me. that if I'm only smarter

if I'm only

more likable, if I'm only wittier, if I'm only

more amenable, then maybe I'm not wrong. Because how could I be wrong? I know myself.

I take no shit. I could never be wrong in that.
It's become very humbling, actually. We're talking about like being strong and soft.
It's like you can be self-assured and also humble. And humble in knowing that sometimes you get it wrong.
Sometimes you get it wrong again and again and again and again.

That's right.

In that wrongness, it's okay.

You still survive.

You can be wrong.

I'm very comfortable in being wrong now.

Very, very comfortable.

I'm like, uh-oh, wrong turn again.

And everyone will know.

And God is like the GPS.

That's like redirecting, redirecting. You missed your turn.
It's so fascinating, Bose. I've never heard anyone describe it like that.
But it is like at some point, whether it's a marriage or a job, relationship, whatever, at some point you realize, oh, it's me either way. Because either it's me in this situation that's making it hard or it's me that made the decision before to go into this relationship.

Yes.

It's me.

It's me.

It's me.

It's not them.

It's me.

And that is such a hard thing.

It is a hard thing to acknowledge.

It's a hard thing to accept. You know, and then it's a hard thing to correct.
You have the moment where you're like, either way, it's me, whether it was me that got me into this or it's me that's making being in it hard. Yes.
I'm choosing me. Yes.
I'm choosing me. I'm getting the hell out.
Yes. I'm going to stop digging.
And I'm forgiving me.

Yes. I'm forgiving me for making the wrong choice again.
We're so hard on ourselves. Beat yourself up.
I should have known better. I've seen it before.
I should have seen it again. Yeah.
Right? And so then it's like the forgiving myself. And I'm talking about me.
I constantly have to forgive myself for sometimes making the wrong call for myself. You know, it's so much easier, right? To like forgive other people.
Not sometimes it's hard, but it's so much easier to say, oh, well, that person made a mistake. Like if I look at my daughter and she makes a mistake, right? I'm like, oh, hon, it's fine.
You're still an amazing person. Like that was just, that was just, it was bad for the moment.
It's okay. It's okay.
We're going to figure it out. Right? I encourage her that she can make mistakes and that she can turn around and do better.
But yet for myself, I could spend months saying like, but why did you do that? You knew better. And that's what becomes so hard about the staying or the going.
How fast can I forgive myself for making the wrong decision? Oh, that's good. Will determine how quickly I'm able to get out and correct.
It's that thing about when you grab onto barbed wire, don't just hold on forever. Like, don't keep making the mistake because you've put so much time into making the mistake.
That's right. The quickest, we always talk about the squishing the time, like all of our suffering comes in the time between the knowing and the doing.

Ooh, yes.

It's like-

Yes.

Yes.

I was having a conversation with a friend and I was like,

you know that time, you know when you hit your shin?

And that moment between knowing you've hit your shin and when the pain sets in

is like the worst. Yes.
Because you're just sitting there waiting for the pain to come. You're like, oh the pain sets in is like the worst.

Yes.

Because you're just sitting there

waiting for the pain to come.

You're like,

oh, I know this is going to hurt.

Yeah.

That moment right there

is what sometimes we're sitting in.

You know, because you don't want

the pain to come.

And so then we're sitting there

being like, oh, I made a mistake.

Uh-oh, I hit my shin.

How long can I wait

before the pain sets in? Yes. Okay.
I'm excited to tell you today about MidiHealth. If you have heard our menopause episodes, you know how passionate I feel about women having access to information about their bodies and about something that so fundamentally affects their lives.
Here's the deal. If you're over 40 and you're starting to experience some of the symptoms of perimenopause or menopause, if you're having hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, moodiness, all of this can be related to perimenopause or menopause.
Log on to MidiHealth. I have done this.
It is easy. In fact, I have recently been pursuing with MidiHealth hormone therapy to replace some of the hormones that are diminishing in my body.
There are clinicians, they meet with you and they suggest specialized care for your health concerns. It's all through telehealth and 24-7 messaging.
And they call in your prescriptions to your local pharmacy. You deserve to feel great.
Book your virtual visit today at JoinMidi.com. So many things in our lives change, but not our love for Viore clothing.
I love this ad. We're so glad that they continue to support the show.
It's true. Abby is obsessed with Viore.
I am a little bit too. Do you think you have a favorite item? They're t-shirts.
They never get less soft. They're just perfect for everything, for going to dinner, for actively going for a walk, for working out, whatever you want to do.
They're the best. Actually, you wear them to work out and you wear them out to dinner.
That is true. I wear Viore tops all day, every day.
And you wear them under suits and you wear them to bed. It's everything.
I mean, I love them, but it's not easy to find clothes that look sleek and feel comfortable. I mean, I can use them everywhere and anywhere I go.
Viore is an investment in your happiness. I promise you.
For our listeners, they are offering 20% off your first purchase, plus free shipping on any U.S. orders over $75 and free returns.
Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at Viori.com slash hard things. That's V-U-O-R-I dot com slash hard things.
You won't be sorry. Okay, y'all.
So I often have to make these presentations to show the kind of work that we do to partners or people outside of our business. That was always very tricky for me because I didn't know what the hell I was doing until Allison, our wonderful team member, taught me about Canva.
Canva is a platform that helps you simply and easily make presentations that are beautiful and simple and easy, even for someone like me, without any design experience. You start with this stunning template and then you can drag and drop graphics, add eye-catching charts, and incorporate animation even to really make your slides stand out.
And what's even better is that if you're short on time, you can generate slides and text in seconds with a prompt, keeping you on task without juggling multiple apps. And if you're working with a team, collaboration is a breeze.
You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your audience will too.
Love your work with Canva presentations at canva.com. Now, I understand, like, from a personal perspective, you might view some of these choices that you've made as a mistake, but I have kind of another perspective that the world is only ready when it's ready.
So corporate America might only be ready for a Bozema St. John in their minds.
And then in practicality, Bozema St. John walks through the door and starts to fuck shit up and starts to do her work.
And they're like, actually, I don't know if we're this ready yet. I don't know.
And so maybe it feels like a personal mistake or a personal decision that you've made that you don't think was great or in hindsight, you may have chosen differently. But from the perspective of the macro, I think what you're doing is you're laying a foundation for those of us who will come after you and getting the corporate worlds or all of those tables you sat at a little bit more ready for people in certain ways.
And I think that that's really important not to get lost in this conversation that your presence and representation at some of those tables. And this leads me to my question.
You've been at all of the most powerful tables in the corporate world. How does it feel to so often be the one who looks like you at those tables? The only one, I'm sure.
Yeah, probably the only one. Yeah, yeah.
No, look, Abby, thank you for that perspective, you know, because I do often need the reminder of that too.

And so I think both can be true.

Part of the reason why I stopped looking at them as the cause or the reason why sometimes something didn't work or, you know, for me to figure that out is that I felt like I was giving my power away. And perhaps that's a survival mechanism, you know, that I was like, well, if I look at myself, if I say it's me, then I'm better able to feel like, okay, I can make something else happen.
I can be the one who chooses because I chose to come and I can choose to leave. And if I put the power over there, then it feels like I can't choose because I'm waiting for them to do the thing that's right.
And so when I'm sitting at those tables, and yes, almost always by myself, it is both frustrating to know that

I'm probably doing the right thing for the future,

but also that I'm the one who has to take the brunt. Oh, yes.
Of it. You know, that I actually, again, like I've been thinking a lot lately.
Ever since I left my job. Doing a lot of thinking.
And I was just like, damn, like the idea of hidden figures hurts so much.

Because to think that perhaps you were the catalyst for something

and then nobody remembers your name.

Nobody gives you the credit.

And that's what it feels like when I'm in the room.

You know, I'm thinking, this is going to be so great for the people who come after.

But will anybody remember me?

Will you remember my pain?

This moment.

This choice I made.

And if not, is that okay?

Am I all right with it?

You know, am I okay with the sacrifice?

And if I'm being totally transparent and honest, I'm not.

I'm not okay with it. I don't want to be hidden.
I don't want to be forgotten. And yes, people can say, oh, but how can you be? You're going to be in the Hall of Fame.
You're this and you're that. And people know your name.
No, no, no. I want the credit.
Of course you do. I deserve it.
I love that you said that. For for me, it makes me think about being in those rooms and the temptation of wanting to align and become them and to align with the men, the white men in those rooms.
Yes. How easy and alluring that is.
You've talked about that in your career. You know, and I feel like this is the real fight is to resist, to keep resisting the urge in that alignment.
How do you do that? And then that's what you're doing. Yeah.
And then that's why it's not working. Yes.
Because look, I think one of the most obvious places, and it happens a lot. It happens every time.
But one of the most obvious, I think for everyone who sees it will understand, was the moment I took the stage of the Apple keynote, WWDC, where no other Black person, forget Black, no other Black person had presented the software before. I mean, Steve Jobs' stage, right? You've got all of the known people on the stage, Eddie Q and Craig Federici and Phil Schiller.
They're the ones who present, right? And leading up to that moment, first of all, there was a lot of doubt that I should even do it, right? Because look, I'm a marketer. I'm not an engineer.
I'm a Black woman, although nobody wants to say that out loud. They're like, she's a marketer, not an engineer.
yeah I'm like those are the code words and that whole statement about like oh I don't know

if they'll Although nobody wants to say that out loud, you know, they're like, she's a marketer, not an engineer. Yeah.

I'm like, those are the code words. And that whole statement about like, oh, I don't know if they'll believe you.
Yeah. I know why.
But Abby, your point about the allure of just aligning to make things easier. That was my choice that day, too.
where it's like, look, everybody showed up in their jeans and buttoned down shirt. Like a literal visual.
I walked into the green room in the back of the stage and there were, it was just a rack of jeans and blue button downdown shirts and pink button-down shirts and khaki-colored things. And I just looked at it and I was standing there in my curly afro, my very tight pink dress, my Louis Vuitton stilettos with a little poof on the back too.
How dare me, right? A little poof on the back, just to add insult to injury. And I was standing back there and it was like, you know, Tim Cook went first to start the presentation.
And then Eddie went and Eddie is supposed to introduce me. And I'm standing back there and I was just like, whew, one of these things is not like the other, you know, waiting for my turn.
And when I went on that stage, I know it would have been easier for me too, by the way, if I had just put on the jeans and the button down, if I had just tried to look like everybody else, maybe that would be one less barrier than even how I appear to be. I hadn't even opened my mouth yet.
I had not even presented one idea yet. Just how I look.
And so for all of us who are showing up in these spaces, of course you just want to align.

In that little moment of just walking in the door,

knowing everybody's going to turn and look at you,

if you didn't have that hair,

if you didn't have on that crazy outfit,

if you weren't wearing those daggone earrings,

if your nails weren't painted a certain way,

if you weren't wearing those shoes, clickety-clack, clack, clack, here I come down the hallway, you know I'm coming because you heard my heels clicking. It would be so much easier.
But I refuse to do that because I do know all the people who are walking behind me. I am very aware of that.
And it still hurts. Both of those things can be true.
So no, I am not like some, you know, like humble martyr out here. I want my roses.
I want them now. I can, yes, both can be true that I want it for them too, but I want mine.
You know, and that's why I choose. That's why when I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh, you know what? This ain't right.
Let me just, where's my purse at? Let me just pack my things and get up the hell out of here. Because I recognize that unless I do that, I will be that hidden figure.
Nobody will know my name. I love you so much.
And it's amazing when you think about, I don't know how to put this into words, you will, but like how the corporate world and the whole world uses words that cover the racism and the misogyny, uses words like professionalism. Yes.
When what it really means is whiteness. So, well, we just want you to wear this.
We just want you to talk like this. We just want you to, because it's professional.
Yes. Without dissecting what they're actually saying by professional.
White maleness, not just white. That's right.
That's right. Or when we are creating strategies, right? Or telling stories, especially as a marketer, right? That's my whole job is to create narratives about things and you have to make it for the mass market, right? Meaning that my story doesn't matter in it.
But how can that be? Very early on in my career,ated that. Like, I was like, so how am I supposed to create this narrative for white men when I've never been one? That's very strange.
And I thought, huh, I must be smarter than all the rest of y'all. Because if I can do it and you can't tell my story, oh, then I'm very fucking good because I can tell my story and yours.
Oh my God. That's where it started from, right? Because I was just like, oh, I see.
You're trying to tell me that I'm not as good as you, but actually I'm better because I can do both. You could only do one.
And then at some point I was like, oh, but wait, but my story is actually really important too.

So then how do I put my story into the thing?

You know, how do I add my perspective onto the story to really tell it?

It was so interesting how much resistance you can get when you're simply just trying to show up as yourself. It's still surprising to me.
Most times I'm just like, but this can't be. Like, you can't really ignore me, right? Like, you wouldn't be that overt about it.
But no, it's true. Yes, we hide it in all the words.
They're like, no, it's got to be mass market. It's got to hit the majority.
And therefore, your story is not important. Your perspective is not important.
Please consider everybody else before yourself. And perhaps that's also what is striking me because I've been conditioned that that's what I'm supposed to do, whether it's for the opening the doors for everybody else, consider everybody else with myself or in the narrative telling or in the strategy setting, consider everybody else with myself.
And I'm just at the point where I'm just like, no, I'm only considering myself. That's right.
How about that? Yes. That's what, because that's what you're doing for the people that come behind you.
Like, yes, that's the difference between freaking diversity, because especially for a woman like you, when they hire you, they say, we want you for your perspective.

We want you for your story.

We want you for your whatever.

Of course.

And then the second you get there, that's not what they want you for.

No, no, no.

They want you for their sheets that says we have her.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

And to appear to be different, but not actually be different. You know? So, and that was another thing that I've realized is that, look, I actually really do show up as myself, really, you know? And so when that happens, people are just like, oh, but wait, I thought you would then just fit into our culture, you know, because our culture is our thing and you're supposed to fit into it.
And what's so interesting to me is although I love the arts, I'm really a science gal, you know, and I'm like molecules are so interesting. when you think about matter.
It's like in any matter, it could be DNA,

it could be water,

it could be anything.

You add a molecule into the matter and the whole matter changes. It doesn't matter what you're talking about.
So if you consider that the matter is a culture, whether it's society or it's a company or it's a family, you have matter.

And then the one molecule that enters that matter changes it. It is not the same.

And so then you've got to contemplate, well, then if that is true, because it's true in science,

if I walk into a corporate culture,

I am the molecule,

the matter has to change.

It's not even a choice.

It has to change.

So then why would I consider myself insignificant?

Even if I'm just one.

Because if you have a glass of water and you drop some red dye into it,

regardless of how small that drop is, it changes. It's no longer the same.
That's right. So that

little drop can't be insignificant. So I am not insignificant.
Yes. Why would I behave that way?

That's why it's not working. This episode is brought to you by Ring cameras and doorbells.
A lot happens while you're away from home. That's why Ring makes it easy to check in from anywhere.
Whether you're saying hi to an unexpected guest, making sure those packages are safe, or keeping your pet's company, my favorite, while you're out grabbing groceries, it's all a few taps away, right from your phone. Be there with Ring.
Explore cameras, doorbells, alarm kits, and more right now at ring.com. If you are anything like every other parent I know, then you have dealt with or are dealing with a child struggling in a specific subject.
It becomes a challenge for the family. You end up fighting over homework, fighting over tests.
This is why we need to bring in the experts. IXL is an engaging online learning platform covering math, language arts, science, and social studies.
It's designed to help kids build a strong understanding of key topics in a fun, interactive way. With just one subscription, your child gets full access to lessons from pre-K all the way through 12th grade.
IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. Make an impact on your child's learning.
Get IXL now. And We Can Do Hard Things listeners get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at IXllearning.com slash weekend.
Visit IXllearning.com slash weekend to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. If you've listened to We Can Do Hard Things for a while, you know how important acceptance is when it comes to personal growth.
And you know who else is big on acceptance? Discover. You see, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide.

That's a whole lot of places and a whole lot of acceptance, which is great for Discover, but even better for you. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen Report, learn more at discover.com slash credit card.
at the end of the day Boz

is it that a lot of places want to say and get credit for wanting to change but at the end of the day that's the last thing that's wanting they don't want it they don't want the actual change they don't want the change they don't want the change because the change is also too hard. I think they really do want it because we all want things.
You know what I mean? We all want things. But just as in the name of this podcast, like it's hard.
It is hard. Like everything else, I don't think anything is just black and white.
You know, I do believe that there is a desire to change, a sincere one, a sincere acknowledgement that like, oh, yes, okay, no, we are all the same here and we do need to have perspectives that are different. But then that difference comes and it's like, ooh, that's way too different.
Can you just behave a certain way? Can you just not say the things? Can you not bring up that story when you're talking? You know, because, you know, that's just that doesn't fit into the thing we're trying to say. Speaking of hard, I think it's important.
What is it like communicating with white women? An easy question. That's interesting.
What's the hardest part of communicating with white women? The hardest part about communicating with white women is that they still think we're the same. Somehow that just being women means that we're the same.
And that is not true. And again, I think it's like intellectually, we all know that.

But practically, do we know that? Emotionally, do we know that? I don't think so.

And so then the idea of our united sort of energy and our united mission falls apart because we're

still working inside of a society in which whiteness then is the superior. And so it's like,

Thank you. mission falls apart because we're still working inside of a society in which whiteness then is the superior.
And so it's like the superiority of the white women experience is completely a giant as compared to mine. And so then mine doesn't really matter.
So the individual kind of struggles or other types of challenges that I have, because there's so many other connection points in whiteness to white men that I simply don't have. Right.
And so you would think, oh, well, look, I have the connection to women, regardless of race. And then the white women have the connection to the men because of race.
So then they're connected here to the men and they're connected to me because of woman. So they're connected on two points and I'm connected on one.
I'm dependent on that one. And so I'm already at a disadvantage.
And so just understanding that as a literal, practical thing, and that's just the bottom of it, right? Everything else like builds on top of it. But that is the most difficult.
Actually getting the understanding, not just intellectually, but emotionally, that we're not on the same playing field is very, very difficult. And how would that play out? Because again, we're talking about alignment.
so yeah when white who say, I'm aligned with you because we're women, you're black, I'm white, but I'm aligned with you. Do you see it throughout work, throughout? Oh, yeah.
That really the alignment goes the other way. Really, when the shit hits the fan, the alignment, white women align with the power.
With the white men. That's right.
With the power. You know, it's a practical one of that.
Do you remember in the Obama administration, you probably read this, where they said that the women band together to help amplify each other's voices, right, in meetings and whatnot? I thought that was such a beautiful thing. And it has taken root in corporate.
Like, you can see it, you know, where women say, okay, we're getting there. You have an idea.
I'm going to support your idea. And that's such a beautiful thing.
But what is happening also is that in those situations, it is not just my voice that needs to be heard, but my perspective and my story, which sometimes needs to lead. But I find that white women have a hard time following Black women.
And so then it's like that whole affirmation, like rah, rah, rah, let's support each other, only is also one direction. So there's the meetings before the meetings, but there are meetings after the meetings.
Right? The meetings after the meetings are the ones that are just like, oh, I'm so glad you said that. And, you know, did you hear me when I supported you? And I'm like, so you kind of didn't yeah you kind of you kind of said my idea again and then they heard you that's kind of what happened and it's like oh no no but we still got the the we still got the point across like we the women we said the thing and we made the point i'm like no no it was my thing and then you took it it's good and made it yours and then you came back and said oh it's ours nobody remembers that i said it because you said it but that's the thing it's like again i'm just like ah you know it's like sometimes you just feel so frustrated because i'm just like where where is my voice? You know, it's like, yes, we are going further because the woman's story went forward, but it was taken forward by the white woman.
And she didn't even acknowledge me. Yes.
And so then it's like, OK, well, here I am again by my damn self. having to be the kind of jerk afterwards in that post meeting going, actually, no, you stole my idea.
That wasn't ours. And that makes you feel like a jerk.
But like, you're still having to do it. Yes.
And by the way, everybody thinks you're a bitch. Yeah.
You know how many times I've been called arrogant, selfish, a bitch? You know how many times? All the time. And I'm like, no, I'm not selfish.
I'm not a bitch. I'm just asking to be acknowledged.
Yep. I'm just asking to be seen.
That's it. It is the lowest of things I'm asking for.
The lowest. I didn't even ask you to call me a genius, which I fucking am.
Yes. I just asked you to see me.
That's it. That's it.
Low bars here. Now I'm selfish.
You know what I mean? Because I said, oh no, wasn't your idea, it was my idea. Oh, this is teamwork though.
Oh, really? You seem to be the only one in the team. You got I'm just excited for people to hear this I just I feel like people are gonna feel so well I was actually thinking about share the mic because when you said is anyone hearing my story that's what I remember you saying to me is you said I'll never forget one one sentence.
You said, I'm just I'm screaming into the wind. I'm screaming into the wind.
I said, how are you or something? And you said, I'm just I'm screaming, but no one's hearing me. I'm screaming into the wind.
Glennon, can we also pause just there for a second? Because that moment also just needs to be acknowledged because when you and I talked,

you said the thing that most white women don't say.

You know?

You were like, how do I help your voice?

And I said, I was just like, oh, shit.

She wanted to know how to help amplify my voice.

It literally knocked me off my feet.

You know, because I was just like, man, I've been in so many environments, conversations with very well-meaning people.

Again, I don't think everything is black and white.

Things are very great.

You know, people who mean well, they want to help and all that.

But they just take your voice

and then they put theirs on it

and it changes.

Then it's out

and you can't get it back.

You know?

But what you said in that moment

is what then led me to say,

I feel like I'm just screaming

into the wind.

Nobody hears me.

Then it was like, it almost became an easy solution after that. Yeah, it did.
It was like, of course, of course, of course. You should just be heard.
How do I put you on the platform so you can be heard? But it was such a fundamentally different question from everybody else you know so we have to acknowledge that that was not just because i answered but because you asked the question and then that was a question that led to so low so many questions because then you and and Levy. Yeah.
Right? You and Levy came back and were like, you had a whole. You guys, in the 12 minutes, you had a whole plan.
Do you remember what happened next? Oh, man. This is when I feel like the ancestors or the spirits who are not yet here, the ones who are waiting, they just all came through.

It really does not feel like our idea is just conduit to let it be born because it just felt that easy.

It was like as soon as we just stopped, you asked the question.

It was like a portal being opened. You asked the question.
We went back. We were like, okay.
Because I was exhausted. Again, frankly, honestly, I was just exhausted.
I was like, I don't want to talk to nobody. Y'all can keep talking.
I'm going to be sitting over here resting my vocal cords. Mm-hmm.
And from that moment, it was like, look, okay, let's figure out, like, how do we open up our contact lists and find the white women who have these enormous platforms? And how do we get them off of there? How do we get them off? That's good. We don't need them saying our thing.

How do we get them out though? But we still want their platform. And it was amazing to think that all we had to do was ask.
Ask the right people who are willing to say, oh, okay, let me just move over. And again, I don't want to pretend like that was an easy thing either because, look, I feel like Instagram or social media platforms to some degree feel even more sacred to people than their own homes.
Isn't that interesting? You'll invite somebody over to your house to look in your fridge much quicker than you would say, oh, go ahead and just say whatever you want on my Instagram. What if they say something crazy? What if they say something you don't like? What if they say something that's offensive? You don't know what that person's going to say.
It's like, how scary is that? The bravery on both sides of this incredible movement that we made of white women being brave and vulnerable enough to say, look, I'm going to get out the way. You're the keys to the house.
You just do whatever you want. And then the bravery and tirelessness of Black women who were saying, okay, I'm going to say it one more time.
I'm going to say the truth.

And I'm going to be unafraid of what people are going to say about me because they don't know me. They might judge me.
I'm going to say it anyway. And let me tell you, even for me, right? Somebody who's, I'm out.
I'm talking. I'm saying the things.
And all of the work that was going into creating this movement, I remember I called Lovey. It was like, we had told everybody to go online at like noon or something like that.
And I swear to you, it was like 1155. And I called Lovey in a panic.
And I was like, oh, I forgot. I'm supposed to do it too.
I remember that. I totally forgot.
I completely forgot. Somehow that completely escaped me.
And then I was just like, how am I going to do that? I'm so tired. I don't even know what I'm going to say.
I didn't even start thinking about it. And then I got afraid.
I was like, what if I say the wrong thing? There's so much expectation. Like, I don't know what I'm going to do.

I was worried about my outfit.

Forgot what I was going to say.

And then after I was done saying what I wanted to say, I fell out.

Exhausted.

Completely drained.

And so I continuously think about that, too, when I think about the corporate settings or these business settings where it's like it takes so much energy to show up, to say the thing bravely, to go back outside of that space and still continue without laying down and taking a break. You got to do that day after day after day after day.
It is a miracle that we're still able to do this. Like, look, I had to give myself a pep talk the other day.
I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, girl, you are just a miracle. You are a miracle.

Like the fact that you are where you are, from where you came from, withstanding what you've been through, it is a miracle that you're here smiling with that clear ass melanin skin of yours.

Looking as good as you do.

Having a happy spirit.

Raising an incredible daughter. Being an awesome friend.
You're a miracle. So go ahead.
Keep your head up. Speaking of miracles, can we talk about that daughter of yours? I think, you know, Instagram land is really big on love stories.
And we as a culture tend to value most of the romantic ones. But I swear to God, I have goosebumps already and you all don't know what I'm going to say.
But I'm just saying that the love story of you and Leal has got to be one of the most beautiful ones being told right now.

I mean, and for those of you who don't know, you'll have to go.

We'll put all the links to Boz's social so you can see all of her genius, but also see this love she has.

Just tell us about Leal and what are, even like right now from where you are in the world and what are your dreams for her? Oh, Leel. I don't even know where to start with that, you know? Because Leel is my rainbow baby.
I lost a daughter before Leel, Eve, my first. And I lost her the day she was born, which was just devastating and crushing.
That's to put it mildly. And three months after I lost Eve, I was like, I want to have another baby.
I want to be pregnant. My doctor was like, are you out of your mind? Sit your ass down and let your body heal.
And I was like, no, I'm determined. No, this is what I want.
This is what I want. And the thing is that like maybe looking back now is again, maybe reaction to trauma, right? Feeling like, ooh, I was supposed to be a mom.
And then I'm not a mom. So now I got to be a mom.
I'm going to do everything in my power to do that. As soon as I got pregnant, I was terrified.
Like sheer, I'm talking about like sheer terror. Trying to think of every way to get out.
Like, okay, I made a mistake. Again, like I made a mistake.
It's my fault. I wasn't supposed to do this.
I don't know why I did it. Okay.
But I held on and held on and held on. Lael was born two and a half months early.
And I prayed every single day of my pregnancy and every single moment of my labor that she would be born. Alive, breathing, kicking, crying, anything.

And I promised God, I was like, if she lived, that I would name her for him.

Because I said, La El, meaning belonging to God.

And she was born on May 29th, 2009. Same day as my sister.
Elua! Yes, Elua's birthday. And the doctor prepped both Peter and I that because she was premature, because they'd given me a bunch of steroids

to help her lungs develop so she could breathe. That's unfortunately what happened to Eve, was that she just couldn't breathe.
And he says, she's probably not going to make a sound. You won't be able to hold her.
We're going to deliver her and then she's going to go. So just be prepared for that.

And they all came out like lightning.

You know, it was like a crack in the air.

She's like, wow, scream.

And I, I mean, I was in such awe of her in that moment.

I was like, I've delivered a warrior. A real, like a real life warrior.
And I refused to let them take her because I was just like, oh, no, no, no. She's fine.
And when I tell you I did one of those, like in the movies, you know, where you just reach down and grab the kid.

That's what I did.

Oh, my gosh.

I was like, no, she's mine.

Ripped her right out of my womb.

Put her on my chest.

Took in the scent of her, her heartbeat.

The thin, translucent skin that she had.

And felt every inch of her.

She was not bigger than one palm.

But I felt it.

All of it.

Thank you. skin that she had and felt every inch of her.
She was not bigger than one palm, but I felt it, all of it. And in the months that followed, she was in the hospital for a while.
I prayed every day. She came home right before her due date.
and I thought, now I'm responsible for this warrior.

You know, to show her the way.

To make her understand that her life is such a gift.

You know, that she was so wanted, so needed, not just for my own salvation and belief and faith, but that she is here for such a great purpose.

I mean, we all are, but I believe it for her. I know she's destined for something great.
I don't know what that is. And I won't try to force it.
Whatever the path is, I will follow it. Because there is no math that says she should be here.
But yet she is. And so my hope is that she's just going to walk in her destiny and fulfill it.
Well, we started this interview with you saying there's no math that says that you should be here where you are in this world. There is also no math that says the little warrior should be where she is.
And yet you both are freaking warriors, gorgeous warriors, a beautiful love story. When the urgent life is ready, will you come back here please to tell us the story? I just cannot wait, Boaz.
I cannot wait. Please send me that book as soon as it's ready.
Okay. I will.
I will. And you already know.
It's like, you know, the process of writing is so, so difficult. But this was, it's been a long time coming, you know? And I was ready.
The moment I sat down, I was ready. I wasn't ready a moment before that.
But as soon as I sat down, it was like everything just started coming. And so I'm telling all of it, all of the pain, all of the triumph, all of the things.
What a gift. Bose, nobody will ever forget your name.
That is for damn sure. You are unforgettable.
Thank you for being with us and sharing your story and please come back. And the next right thing for all of you pod squatters is just to go back and listen again.
And then pretend when Bose is giving her pep talks to herself that it's for you.

Because you are also a miracle. That's right.
All right. Bose, go do all of your million important hard things.
We love you forever. We will always be in your corner.
I love you so much. We will talk soon.
Thank you for this. Thank you so much.
Carry on, warriors. Bye.
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.
First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.
This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review

and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle,

Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman,

and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.