Codependence: How to Stop Controlling Others with Melody Beattie (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 Hi, pod squad. As someone whose entire adult life has been about

Speaker 2 trying to learn to relinquish control

Speaker 2 to get more peace and freedom. Melody Beattie

Speaker 2 has been an incredibly important guide to me in my life personally and to millions.

Speaker 2 A few days ago, we read this message from Nicole Beattie, who is Melody's daughter. On February 27th at 10 p.m., just as the new moon fell into Pisces, my beautiful mother, Melody Beatty, passed away.

Speaker 2 She died peacefully at home, surrounded by family and loved ones. My mother was never afraid to die.
Why should I be? I'm going to see God.

Speaker 2 I'll be reunited with your brother, and I'll finally get to meet my favorite person, Moses.

Speaker 2 Her fearlessness was a great comfort to me in her final weeks. During one of our last conversations, I leaned in close to her and asked, Where are you going, Mom? She turned toward me and smiled.

Speaker 2 I'm going on a miraculous new adventure.

Speaker 2 I'll miss you. Godspeed, Mal.

Speaker 2 Oh, Nicole.

Speaker 2 It's fascinating and fitting that Melody Beatty's favorite person was Moses. She led a hell of a lot of people out of the wilderness.
Today, we are honoring the life and legacy of Melody Beattie

Speaker 2 by revisiting a life-changing for me conversation that we had with her that really helped us untangle the difference between healthy and unhealthy helping and just was like one hour of absolute life-saving freedom.

Speaker 2 We are forever transformed by Melody's work, work that will continue to guide and heal generations to come. Nicole, we love you.
We are with you. We are so grateful for your bomb and your family.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 I'll take over there. When I was in my early 20s, Codependent No More was probably the most

Speaker 1 transformative and important book. Melody, we love you, and we hope you are on your journey.

Speaker 2 We love you, Pod Squad. Hope you enjoy this conversation.

Speaker 2 Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 2 Delighted to tell you today that with us is the Melody beatie a pioneering voice in self-help literature melody is the author of many best-selling books including

Speaker 2 codependent no more

Speaker 2 a number one new york times bestseller which has sold over 7 million copies as well as the language of letting go playing it by heart the grief club and beyond codependency an updated edition of the best-selling modern classic which really screwed us up okay

Speaker 2 codependent No More is available now. Melody lives in Southern California.
Melody, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 4 Thank you for doing this wonderful show.

Speaker 2 Oh, we're so excited. I have to tell you, I have read your book a long time ago because I'm a recovering addict.
So that was part of my whole shebang.

Speaker 2 But then recently, we all got it. All three of us got it because our friend Jen Hatmaker was on the show and reminded us of it in talking to us about how important it was for her.

Speaker 2 The book sat on our coffee table.

Speaker 2 We just stared at it for about a week. And then I said, are you going to read it? And Abby goes, I'm not reading it unless you read it,

Speaker 2 which I felt like was very codependent of us. But then I read it.
And what I need you to understand, Melody, is that I read the entire book as my sister.

Speaker 2 I pretended I was her reading and I had all of the arguments and the epiphanies that I imagined she would have as I was reading.

Speaker 2 And I want you to know that I truly let your words sink in and change her deeply

Speaker 2 through my reading.

Speaker 4 The comedian Louis Anderson

Speaker 4 once said that I haven't really sold 7 million copies of that book. It's just been sold to one really, really codependent woman who went out and bought all those copies for someone else.

Speaker 4 So somewhere between the two, I think there's truth.

Speaker 2 Yes, one of our beloved team members five minutes ago before this interview said, What does it say if four different people in different parts of your life and times of your life have gifted you that book over and over and over again?

Speaker 4 Either they're really codependent, or you are.

Speaker 2 Well, yes, I think so, because that's a little codependent, right? That's right, it is.

Speaker 4 But on the plus side,

Speaker 4 and I'm hoping this rings true, if we identify as codependent, we're in pretty good company.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 4 we are.

Speaker 1 Oh, that makes me feel better.

Speaker 2 Sister, tell Melody about your experience with this.

Speaker 3 Well, I have always just assumed that among the many things that I have to worry about, codependency was not one of them because

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 3 was like,

Speaker 3 oh, codependent. That can't be me.
I'm the one that everyone is dependent on. So codependency has nothing to do with me.
And I just never revisited it until

Speaker 3 Hatmaker came on the pod

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 she had just read your book and was talking about how it is not letting others around you that you care about

Speaker 3 feel and experience the consequences of their own actions. And I was like,

Speaker 2 damn it.

Speaker 2 Damn it.

Speaker 3 And so I newly understand myself also

Speaker 3 in this area.

Speaker 2 Can you tell us about how this human condition of codependency came into consciousness? Like the beginning of this idea?

Speaker 4 Very painfully in my life.

Speaker 4 I found myself, and I was in the program then, the recovery program, AA.

Speaker 4 And I was going to meetings and there was a fire going on and a fire among young people that this program and the recovery in it extended to us as well.

Speaker 4 And my sponsor introduced me to a guy. Look at me blaming.
I'm not blaming.

Speaker 4 I married him, and then I began to learn what it meant to be truly codependent.

Speaker 4 The research from this book was heartfelt. And yet, it was also an exciting time because there was so much passion for recovery back then.

Speaker 4 In the 70s in Minnesota, we were on fire. We were steaming.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 when I started bugging everyone in AA, like,

Speaker 4 because my marriage didn't feel right, nothing felt right about it, but nothing had really felt right my entire life.

Speaker 4 So I started bugging my sponsor and bugging people in the program and say, you know, this is it, there's something going on here.

Speaker 4 And it's like, shh.

Speaker 4 Just go to your meetings and don't make a problem.

Speaker 4 But I I couldn't, I became obsessed with finding out what was going on with me, what I could be doing that didn't involve putting a substance in me that could be causing and creating this kind of havoc inside of my entire being.

Speaker 2 Because you weren't using. No, I was a part of it.

Speaker 4 I was clean and sober for two or three years by then and, you know, working a program, but you wouldn't know it by the way I felt. And I thought, oh my God, here I am clean and sober.
And,

Speaker 4 you know, hard pressed to find a true reason to live other than caring for other people.

Speaker 4 And so I kept up this obsessive search, which began, I would say, 1976 until

Speaker 4 1985 when I wrote the book.

Speaker 3 Can we go to that havoc piece? Because one of the most revolutionary parts of your work to me is

Speaker 3 codependence makes us feel crazy and leads us to this kind of ultimate self-harm, which is distrusting ourselves.

Speaker 3 So when you talk about feeling crazy, you say we feel crazy because we're lying to ourselves, because we are believing other people's lies.

Speaker 3 And that disrupts this core of our being, that deep instinctive part of ourselves that knows the truth. We push that away.

Speaker 3 And then we begin to not trust ourselves. Is that what you mean when you say that havoc in your life, that kind of crazy making piece?

Speaker 4 We go off. We go off.
We're not tuned in. We become misaligned.
When we're misaligned with ourselves, we really can't tune into much else. And that's what happens.

Speaker 4 You know, there's so much talk now about people gaslighting other people. No one can gaslight me as well as I can gaslight myself.

Speaker 4 Tell myself my feelings don't matter. What I want doesn't matter.
I'm overreacting.

Speaker 4 All the things we do to invalidate are natural, normal human responses to life.

Speaker 2 And that happens a lot because the kind of codependency you're talking about right now is

Speaker 2 the definition that this began with, someone who loves or is in a relationship with an addict.

Speaker 4 Well, that wasn't really the first definition. It was

Speaker 4 has let ourselves become obsessed or controlled by another person's behavior

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 that can be like from little things like not picking up your socks to you know drinking away the family's finances everything is on a scale isn't it

Speaker 4 of what we're doing and why we're doing it we all have different impulses that motivate us

Speaker 4 But when it comes to codependency, luckily, we're in this lovely boat together and learning to do something that is meant to, for the most part, feel good, although all things we do that are good are somewhat hard, aren't they?

Speaker 4 Yeah, sometimes really hard. But we're learning what it means to really love ourselves.
I mean, I mouthed those words for so many years.

Speaker 4 But if you look someone in the eye and say, what does that really mean?

Speaker 4 I'm not sure we can talk about love from the head. I think we need to talk about it from the heart.
Love yourself, take care of yourself. But what does that really mean?

Speaker 4 So the next 20, 40 years became dedicated to learning what that really meant um

Speaker 4 to going back to going forward to staying stuck and to all the other journeys in between that we go through on the way

Speaker 4 so it wasn't the original definition of codependency but it was kind of popularized within the groups the wives right of of the the addicts that there's a whole chapter in the big book about the wives and they just noticed that their behavior their lives had become unmanageable but they weren't using they weren't substance abusing no they were just ticking off the addict or the alcoholic and reflecting their instability and i'm i'm going to you know be partial to genders but i i don't think that many women knew how not to be codependent back in the 50s 60s and early 70s we had been trained we had been embedded in it starting with the days that being married to a man was

Speaker 4 inherent to our survival as a species on this planet. So we're talking about overcoming a lot of past karma.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Your book

Speaker 2 lays out so well. You know, it kind of began in these rooms where people were like, no, I'm, my life is, why is my life wild? I'm not even drinking.

Speaker 2 I'm just married to a drinker and their behavior has made me out of control. Then it expanded to people who maybe were loved in somebody who was mentally ill or loved somebody.

Speaker 2 Those types of people can be codependent but as i'm reading your stuff i'm like but aren't all women in a patriarchy absolutely conditioned to be codependent aren't if

Speaker 2 of course they are right so like if the the highest definition of a woman is to be selfless isn't that literally the definition of codependency selflessness and only obsession with someone else's pleasing or controlling someone else.

Speaker 4 It's a little frightening if you think about it, but I really believe we've come a long way. We've come a long way to nurturing and growing that soul within each of us.

Speaker 4 I've heard this. I can't document it because my mother sometimes had a hard time with the truth.
God bless her soul.

Speaker 4 But I believe she was the first woman in Minnesota that was allowed to get a mortgage and a property in her own name as a female.

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 3 wow, that's a big deal.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it is. It is.
So, I mean, while it's important to stay in now,

Speaker 4 it's important to not forget how we got here.

Speaker 4 And not much is guaranteed, is it? No.

Speaker 3 Since I'm relatively new to this, I will represent the people who are listening right now and thinking, this is so fascinating, but I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Speaker 3 Let's just do a little, you might be codependent if.

Speaker 3 So as Melody said,

Speaker 3 her definition in her pioneering work was one who is affected by someone else's behavior and is obsessed with controlling that behavior. So this is people who

Speaker 3 they're always reacting, they're never acting, they are caretaking, they're in denial, repression, anger. They have low self-esteem and they

Speaker 3 also are folks who might feel more safe giving

Speaker 3 than you are secure in receiving. You feel responsible for someone else's well-being.

Speaker 3 You have a habit of saying yes when you mean no, these kinds of things. And recently, I have become aware of this

Speaker 3 high-functioning codependence, which is the one that I am in tune with. And I heard it on Terry Quole's podcast, but it's this idea of like, if you are the I got it person, you're, I got it.

Speaker 3 I'm the one that everyone goes to.

Speaker 3 I am the one who,

Speaker 3 if something is urgent to someone else, it automatically becomes urgent to me.

Speaker 3 And you're doing that to the detriment of yourself and your responsibility to yourself. So, if any of those things ring true to you,

Speaker 4 add one thing to that. Do you often become passively angry?

Speaker 2 Yeah. At all these people, do you resent them? Do you count if you become actively angry at these people?

Speaker 4 Slide right on down that scale, huh?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 that's so true, Melody. So you're doing all the things, but then you're secretly seething that you have to do all the things.

Speaker 4 Yeah, we're constantly angry about what we're doing instead of realizing that, yes, there is a connection between us and what we do.

Speaker 4 And then trying to intercept that connection and figure out what we're doing that we don't like. Who is the hardest person to control?

Speaker 2 Self.

Speaker 1 For each of us.

Speaker 4 So it's so much easier to try and control others. And at first, we don't know them as well as we know ourselves, do we?

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 4 I would say that it's just not controlling other people. I would say that people with codependency issues, and I am included there,

Speaker 4 have control issues generally with life,

Speaker 4 especially if we came from chaotic situations where we could never relax and allow life to unfold. We couldn't trust ourselves because someone was gaslighting us.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I would say it takes a couple hours of my energy every day to focus on letting go of my control issues.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow. How do you do that?

Speaker 4 A lot of meditation.

Speaker 4 Whole lot of meditation. Yoga.
I have a yoga routine that I'm able to do every day and actually in this podcast room.

Speaker 4 So, but by getting into my body, by getting out of the world around me and not sticking my finger in the light socket of scrolling on my phone and just getting into who I am, relaxing with myself, remembering what I enjoy, remembering all I have right now.

Speaker 4 It's so ungodly easy to see what we don't have.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

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Speaker 2 Can we talk about the phone? Because this is another thought I was having while I was reading your book.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 don't answer texts. It's just something that I just decided I cannot live my life just constantly responding to anybody who ever wants to reach out at any time.
This upsets people.

Speaker 2 Not the people in my life who've texted me, but like if I post something and it and people can see that I have like 300 unread texts, it makes people wild.

Speaker 2 But my question, Melanie, is aren't we all setting up a system where we're completely codependent on emails and texts? Because if codependency is reacting instead of acting,

Speaker 2 if picking up our phones And we're constantly waiting for the world, for anybody who tweets at us, for anybody who emails us, for anybody who texts us to tell us what they need from

Speaker 2 us. And then we live our entire lives just reacting to what everybody else needs from us or whatever ideas anybody else has from us.
Aren't we all totally codependent upon the interwebs email?

Speaker 4 We are completely plugged in to the electrical circuits of almost every other human being on this planet. We pick up their anxiety, we pick up their fear.

Speaker 4 I mean, we're all like tapped into this big spider web of ethers.

Speaker 4 Of course, we're going to have anxiety. And it gets to the point where sometimes if I'm not feeling enough anxiety, I'll scroll through my phone to start a little bit of it.

Speaker 4 So yeah, I spent a lot of time working on

Speaker 4 staying at peace. I think that's so much better than being happy because even being happy can be a distraction.
But being peaceful really works for me.

Speaker 1 That's amazing.

Speaker 2 Can you talk about the seeming to be in control? Like sometimes the people who seem to to be in the most control are out of control. The characteristic being, well, I've got it all under control.

Speaker 2 Or if you are trying to control another person's behavior, really that other person's in control of you.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. It's all an illusion.
This whole, I can control you, you're controlling me, it's all an illusion and it can crumble quite quickly and usually does.

Speaker 4 We can't control any human being. They are going to do what they want to do.

Speaker 3 Can you speak to your second spiritual awakening? You say that your first spiritual awakening, you realized God was real. And your second spiritual awakening, you realized you were real.

Speaker 3 Can you speak to that moment? Because I think that exemplifies exactly what Glennon's going to right now.

Speaker 4 Okay, this happened.

Speaker 4 fairly deeply into my marriage after I had been, you know, trying to convince myself I could deal with it. It wasn't as bad as I thought, but yet it was.
And

Speaker 4 I had already told David, and we had two kids, I had two kids still in diapers, and I told him, you know, if you drink again, we are over, we're ended.

Speaker 4 And he went to Vegas and I said, well, promise me you won't drink. He said, of course not.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 we were scheduled to hold a party at the home, at the home we had in Minneapolis for a neighbor who had, had who introduced me to Alan on

Speaker 4 and had put herself through nursing school. And

Speaker 4 he was supposed to be home. And it was a big deal to me to be able to thank her.
She had helped me.

Speaker 4 And he didn't show up. I hadn't heard from him.
I started calling him on the phone. The hotel would put me through and it would just ring into nothing.

Speaker 4 And I know, you know, when you're a good codependent, you know, you don't really need confirmation, do you?

Speaker 4 But ultimately, he did pick up the phone and I heard, you know, literally almost heard glug glug glug as you know he poured liquid into

Speaker 4 either into his throat into something

Speaker 4 and i went oh man here we go again but what changed in me

Speaker 4 first it was a spiritual awakening i had when i realized i was as out of control with obsessing about him as i used to be about getting drugs. I was just, you know,

Speaker 4 I had all these people coming over for this party and all I could think about was the other person, what someone else was or wasn't doing.

Speaker 4 And for the first time since I married him, I saw myself. I thought, you know, he's out of control,

Speaker 4 but so am I.

Speaker 4 And that was

Speaker 4 the first part of my second spiritual awakening. The second part was I realized that I was real.
God was real. I was real.
I wasn't just an appendage to another human being.

Speaker 4 I was pretty much, I don't know about fully functioning, but getting there,

Speaker 4 a human. And that was revolutionary to me because first I had been my mom's pet, you know, and then I had just turned into an object of reaction to David.
And so it was the beginning of me.

Speaker 4 Well, it's the journey we're all on our entire lives, the journey of continually every day rediscovering ourselves, who we are, how we feel, what we want, what we don't like, what we have to offer in the world, taking our seat at the table, all the different, there's so many different phases in life we each go through.

Speaker 4 And to learn to love ourselves and not turn on ourselves when we go through these phases or when we don't do them perfectly,

Speaker 4 that's the kind of self-love. that we're now moving into it being an absolute necessity to have for ourselves.

Speaker 2 It's interesting because it's almost like with codependency, the drug is control. It's not booze.
It's not food.

Speaker 2 It's worry. It's control.
I think sometimes when you say control, people don't identify with it until you say help.

Speaker 2 Like if you are obsessed with helping someone else, can't help.

Speaker 4 They're still calling it helping, huh?

Speaker 2 I think so. I think so.
I think I am. So I'm sure they are.

Speaker 2 So helping though, people obsessed with helping. Is helping just a sweet word for control?

Speaker 2 and what's the right kind of help some help's got to be okay right it's helping that no one asked for in fact they said please don't do that here i've come with my help yeah they're they're making the dracula sign instinct please don't bring your help okay so that's the sign huh got these bags of help they're like they're like we're closed the big clothes sign on the door and you're like just got a few more bags i'm gonna bring in yeah it's help unwanted help the butting in help that nobody asked for.

Speaker 4 But it's something much bigger than that, though. Okay.

Speaker 4 We consistently and without fail love the other person more than we love ourselves.

Speaker 4 That's where we step into the pit of codependency.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 3 don't we also

Speaker 3 believe that we are not worthy of love because we seek out those

Speaker 3 with whom we can settle to be needed

Speaker 3 as opposed to be loved.

Speaker 4 We do. I mean,

Speaker 4 let's be very, very honest. Which one of us completely understands love?

Speaker 4 What it is?

Speaker 2 Not this guy.

Speaker 4 I mean, we're all pretty much on equal ground, I think, stumbling, stumbling through it alone. And yet, in this whole nonsense about the one.

Speaker 4 I mean,

Speaker 4 sometimes we have someone for right now, sometimes for a while. We walk with others on this journey.

Speaker 4 We gain, we give back. And if we're codependent, sometimes we keep repeating.
We can get stuck in a little bit of a rut. But

Speaker 4 that's how we learn and grow. And in the end, it's all good.
It's all okay. And we need to stop picking on ourselves for the way we've grown and changed.

Speaker 4 I was was reading something the other day and it talked about how

Speaker 4 we never could see a baby grow, can we? I mean,

Speaker 4 we can't sit there all day and say, oh, she just grew.

Speaker 4 I've never seen a plant grow.

Speaker 4 I've come out the next day and I've seen that it's grown, but I can never see it when it's growing. I can never catch it.
And the same holds true with us.

Speaker 4 I don't know if it's having gone through the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, but

Speaker 4 we can get to expecting this parade for every time something important happens.

Speaker 4 But I found that the changes I make on the journey to self-love are quieter and they're the kind of changes I can't see any more than I can see a plant or a baby grow.

Speaker 4 But I could see the difference.

Speaker 4 You know, little by slowly, I could see the difference when I pay attention. and give awareness to

Speaker 4 loving myself as much as I love others. I'm not talking about to the exclusion of, I'm talking about as much as.

Speaker 1 And so if you do love yourself as much as you're loving others, then are you free of codependency?

Speaker 2 Or,

Speaker 1 because I read your book over 20 years ago. And one of the things that I have always struggled with codependency around is I have this huge heart.

Speaker 1 And I do agree that for a long time, I didn't have the ability to love myself more than other people.

Speaker 3 But now I feel like I do love myself

Speaker 1 equally and sometimes more than other people. But I do still exhibit similar behaviors that I did then.

Speaker 1 Am I still codependent now?

Speaker 2 Do you heal from this travesty?

Speaker 4 What? Of being human?

Speaker 2 Of being codependent?

Speaker 1 Because I don't know the difference between codependency and love. Like, like

Speaker 1 that is my big question. Like marriage and my children,

Speaker 1 raising children feels like a big pile of codependency.

Speaker 2 How do you

Speaker 4 raising kids is

Speaker 4 one of the few legitimate circumstances that most closely resembles codependency, only it's legitimate.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you, Melanie.

Speaker 1 Okay, this makes me feel better.

Speaker 3 Because we got to that and we're like, we don't know how to make this work.

Speaker 3 This is where the theory really breaks down.

Speaker 4 I know. And it's our job

Speaker 4 to love that baby through life and into life, which is also our job with us.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's interesting because in parenthood, the needing thing is real. The needing is real.

Speaker 2 But in adult relationships, I just keep coming back to the part where you said, codependence, settle for being needed.

Speaker 2 It's like, I don't know what love is. I don't trust that I'm enough.

Speaker 2 So I create these situations where it seems like everyone's dependent on me to do things for them or be things for them because that legitimizes my worthiness.

Speaker 4 And I believe we all do.

Speaker 4 who doesn't like being needed a little bit right you know now and again if nobody needs us, if we're not part of a community that would miss us if we weren't there, but we can set up systems where the need is,

Speaker 4 I mean, it's a crazy, chaotic, pounding need that we've created of people leaning on us and us getting resentful. And why does this always happen to me? Well, because you keep doing it.

Speaker 4 It's not about pleasing anything or anyone outside of ourselves. just ourselves, our own heart, our own peace, our own life.
That's pretty much who we're here to please.

Speaker 4 It's not as easy said as done, though, because we have to get to know ourselves, don't we? To know what pleases us, what doesn't please us, what we like, what feels good, what doesn't feel good.

Speaker 4 And then when does it matter? Because there's a lot of times when, you know, life will break our boundaries.

Speaker 4 It will do things to us we didn't want it to do, we didn't plan on, and that aren't fair and aren't right. But we have a choice in it.
We can go back to our victim's story

Speaker 4 or we can surrender. And we'll probably do some of both along the way.
Life is

Speaker 4 messy. It's complicated.
It doesn't happen neatly the way it does in books and movies. It's just much messier than that.
And yet

Speaker 4 when we give up our control and this thing we have with needing to know how everything is and how every detail will work out, when we're willing to say, I don't know, and step into the unknown is when we find the magic.

Speaker 4 We really do. That's when the magic happens.

Speaker 2 Does it make sense? But I know every single thing I struggle with in my entire life, all of my battles. The questions are many, but the answer is always let go of control in a million different ways.

Speaker 2 That's just always the answer. Can you talk to us about detachment?

Speaker 2 What is detachment?

Speaker 4 Probably the first thing we need to learn to do at the beginning of our recovery journey

Speaker 4 and every day when we wake up.

Speaker 4 I'm a Gemini. I get really obsessive.
I like to attach. I attach to ideas.
I'm overly loyal. I will hang on to people, places, and things long after they've lost their usefulness.

Speaker 4 And so it's like Trying to keep up with the way we attach fast enough to free ourselves so that we can live our lives. That is a worthwhile goal.
And it's not easy.

Speaker 1 You just solved my life right there. I'm a Gemini too, Melody.
Thank you for making me feel seen and heard.

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Speaker 3 When I was thinking about detachment, I just assumed that detachment meant you put up this boundary, this person is not in your life.

Speaker 3 So basically, again, my sense of control, like, okay, I can just reorder everything. And then these people are in and these people are out.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 you say that the detachment isn't being detached from the person.

Speaker 3 It is detaching from the agony of the involvement with the person.

Speaker 4 I do. And I want to say something else too, that the detachment didn't just occur when I had that realization when I was on the phone.

Speaker 4 Because what I did is I ended up telling him, you know, you got yourself to Vegas. If you want to get home, you'll get yourself home.
I'm putting on a party. I'll see you later.

Speaker 4 That wasn't the moment I detached. I detached in the three years incrementally that occurred and the experiences I went through that occurred before that.
I mean,

Speaker 4 it's a process. And those aren't just words.
Everything is a process in life.

Speaker 4 And we can trust our process.

Speaker 4 We don't have to invalidate it. We don't have to call ourselves names, although it's sometimes fun to rag on ourselves, isn't it? The beginnings and endings aren't as clear as they may appear to be.

Speaker 3 I heard you say that

Speaker 3 you think that the changes that

Speaker 3 have happened in your life or the changes you've made in your life have all started two years before

Speaker 3 anyone could say, oh, there's a change.

Speaker 3 And that felt so comforting to me because it feels sometimes you're like, God, I'm just doing the same damn thing I'm always doing and I'm not making.

Speaker 3 But all those little bitty baby micro

Speaker 3 mental shifts.

Speaker 4 Little by slowly, little by slowly. And then in spring, we go out and we go, oh, my garden's grown.
And we need to do that with ourselves too.

Speaker 4 We need to also tell ourselves about the progress we've made. Being codependent isn't like I can get a little ashamed of it.

Speaker 4 And I wrote the book, but

Speaker 4 it's not a bad thing. It's a human thing.
It's a human thing people do.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 we call it a dysfunction, but we call everything a dysfunction now, don't we?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm a recovering addict, so I am partial to us, but I always feel like all of these conditions or things that we call

Speaker 4 label as, what did you just call it, a dysfunction yeah they're all just extreme forms of the human condition yeah always like I drank and did drugs and really to numb but everybody numbs in maybe less dramatic ways a codependent who's really really really out of control with everybody in one way or another is dependent upon someone else's behavior and it's all a spectrum it's all a spectrum yeah absolutely what i found when when and you had asked earlier about uh the progression of the awareness awareness and consciousness of codependency, is when I started talking openly about my experiences and especially growing up in an alcoholic home, how that had affected me, I found that all these people whose lives I envied and looked at in my neighborhood growing up were dealing with the same issues.

Speaker 4 I wasn't that special. I was just the only one opening my app about it.

Speaker 2 Exactly. I feel that, Melody.
I feel that. Can you talk to us about acceptance? Because sister has been really thinking about this idea in your work.

Speaker 3 I was

Speaker 3 fascinated by you talk about Esther Olson's work where she calls grief the forgiveness process.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 obviously, the last stage of grief is acceptance. And it just made me think: is all

Speaker 3 of this, our process of detaching,

Speaker 3 is it really all just about forgiving others for being who they are?

Speaker 3 And including ourselves.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

Speaker 4 And acceptance. I mean, we don't have to like it.

Speaker 4 We just have to accept it.

Speaker 3 Damn. Yes.

Speaker 3 Some people think, okay, if I'm going to accept this, I just have to adapt to it, or I just have to resign myself to it, or I have to just tolerate it. And that isn't what acceptance means, correct?

Speaker 4 Surrender. Yeah.
No, we're talking about surrender, a real

Speaker 4 waving their white flag of surrender to the experience, to this new twist in our journey, to how this changes our lives.

Speaker 4 My life was blown up in 1990 when my son, Shane, went skiing on his 12th birthday and never came home.

Speaker 4 Disrupted my daughter's life. It disrupted my life.

Speaker 4 It's one thing to say the word grief and to talk about the journey, but I mean, my soul fell out of my heart and down onto the floor. And I spent the next 20 years trying to

Speaker 4 find more light and get through it and understand. But one of the first lessons I learned when after moving to California with my daughter

Speaker 4 was

Speaker 4 I wasn't able to run into anyone on this planet who hadn't encountered some form of loss, some form of anguish. And I mean, as I traveled around the world, really deep, painful,

Speaker 4 big things.

Speaker 4 And that was the start of the grief club

Speaker 4 that we're not being singled out, although sometimes it may feel like we are.

Speaker 4 And I don't know. They don't seem to tell us this stuff in kindergarten, do they?

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 4 carry an umbrella and a rock everywhere you go because life is going to be a little bit difficult. You're going to need to protect yourself often.

Speaker 4 No, we're not completely equipped for that.

Speaker 2 Melody, thank you for sharing that. It's

Speaker 2 really

Speaker 2 the ultimate acceptance as opposed to codependence is not necessarily a singular person that we're trying to control, but life itself.

Speaker 4 Yeah, we don't want to get banged up anymore. It's not because we're bad, it's because we've already been through enough, we think.

Speaker 4 We just don't want to hurt anymore. And who can blame us?

Speaker 2 Yeah, But it's going to happen no matter what, whether we're in control mode or in surrender mode. Life is coming at us anyway.

Speaker 4 I have learned that surrender is one of the few things in life that hurts most before I do it. Every time out of the box, it's my resistance.
It's my resistance.

Speaker 4 When I'm in a state of resistance to a situation, to an emotion, to anything in life, when I'm resisting it, I'm putting myself through pain. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's not the surrender that hurts, it's the considering surrender that hurts. Yes.

Speaker 4 The kind of contemplating the fact that we're not really in control. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And that is the grief, right?

Speaker 3 Because if we get to surrender, which is acknowledging that we accept our circumstances, including ourselves and including the people in our lives and our lives themselves as they are in this moment,

Speaker 3 the grief is that

Speaker 3 we can't make ourselves and our lives and other people any different

Speaker 3 than they are in this moment.

Speaker 2 The good news is, we're not God. The bad news is we're not God.

Speaker 4 So, life is a duality, isn't it? Yeah, it really is a duality. There's no easy formula for anything in life

Speaker 4 that I've found that actually works.

Speaker 1 How do you approach the idea of every single day needing to surrender? Because there's so many of us, myself included,

Speaker 1 I want to do it once and be done with it. How do you approach feeling okay with the idea that every day

Speaker 2 because it's not a forever finished done thing?

Speaker 1 You have to.

Speaker 2 Every time you get on a website and it says, do you accept the cookies? And I'm like, is there anywhere that I can just accept all the cookies for once?

Speaker 2 And just, yes.

Speaker 4 It can be a bit much at times,

Speaker 4 especially over the last, I would say, 15 years.

Speaker 4 It all has been a bit much. But we're getting challenged at such deep levels about long-held beliefs, about right, about wrong, about who we are, about how to be in the world.

Speaker 4 If there's another thing I would encourage people to do, and

Speaker 4 instead of telling ourselves, stop controlling, we can start allowing life.

Speaker 4 Allowing life. We can allow life to happen.
We can allow ourselves to be and to happen as well.

Speaker 4 We can gentle up a little bit because, you know, it's just been batshit crazy for quite a few years now, hasn't it?

Speaker 4 Really crazy and really intense. And even going on the cell phone.

Speaker 4 Every time I start to scroll, it feels like sticking my finger in a light switch.

Speaker 2 Yes, it does.

Speaker 4 And it just aggravates everything.

Speaker 4 So, the next challenge is to find doing things that calm us, that help us find our inner peace, and that nurture the light each of us have inside of ourselves to share with the world.

Speaker 4 We don't have to change the whole world.

Speaker 4 We don't have to buy out the whole table. We just need to quietly take our seat at it and let our light shine, you know.

Speaker 4 And to do that,

Speaker 4 I find meditation absolutely critical.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Right now, I don't know how to get through any day successfully without meditating. The anxiety and the energy is so intense.

Speaker 4 And I live in a very natural, beautiful place, but it's not about where we live. It's about our home inside of ourselves and how that home feels to be in, and if we're comfortable in that home.

Speaker 2 And returning to the place that is the only place you can control. I mean, I think about this all the time because of anxiety.

Speaker 2 And it feels to me like the reason why yoga and meditation help me are are because

Speaker 2 then my awareness is returned to the place that I can control and that is safe.

Speaker 2 When you're scrolling, or when you're even talking to someone else, or when you're looking outside of the world, your awareness is on everybody else and what you can't control.

Speaker 2 Like, that's why we're all anxious when we're watching the news. We're looking at this carnage,

Speaker 2 and our awareness is on something that we can do nothing about.

Speaker 2 We move out of home, we move out of home.

Speaker 4 And that's

Speaker 4 what so much of life is about, is about getting us comfortable. And how can I learn to make myself comfortable in my own home?

Speaker 4 No, I can't control everything in my environment, but I can make choices that lead to an optimum environment in my home inside of myself for me to live in.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And moving out of our home

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 in that way that you just described, but it's also in the way of understanding that a lot of these

Speaker 3 very well-ingrained strategies and ways of seeing the world

Speaker 3 that are making us crazy now are there because we've never moved out of our metaphorical home. Because a lot of those strategies were strategies that were letting us survive.

Speaker 3 when we couldn't make that choice for ourselves. You talk a lot about how a

Speaker 3 lot of the things that you had to move away from later were the very things that kept you safe

Speaker 2 earlier

Speaker 4 right well and and we're all a bit like that aren't we we find one circle and it works And if we're growing, we outgrow it, or another person outgrows it, and it stops working.

Speaker 4 But we, with our loyal, ever-loyal codependents' hearts, will remain attached in that and to that, and feeling guilty should we happen to neglect it for many years to come after

Speaker 4 it doesn't really work for us anymore or the other people. It's just like, I have to keep at this, don't I?

Speaker 4 Not necessarily. We can't discount the huge changes going on around us now either.
We're going through so many spiritual, global changes, transformation, upheaval. And just when it lands,

Speaker 4 it's like a butterfly. It flitters again and flies away.
It never, it hasn't landed it hasn't stopped changing for years and so

Speaker 4 of all the times i've lived through i've never felt the challenge to meditate and create a peaceful home in myself as i have now and as i have recently that doesn't come natural i i don't know that it comes natural to anyone without a practice

Speaker 2 you know because we think of detachment as not caring or or saying that's enough or letting go but really to me

Speaker 2 it has to do with the idea of just not depending on solid ground. Like that, everything is like a

Speaker 2 riding a wave

Speaker 2 as opposed to trying to find somewhere to stand still. Because I feel like I'm always trying to find solid ground, like somewhere to stand still.

Speaker 2 And life is just constantly requiring, is constantly movement, movement, and requiring me to not be rigid, but to just be

Speaker 2 agile.

Speaker 4 That's such a great point. I think

Speaker 4 being flexible right now, being flexible in our ideation and

Speaker 4 our opinions,

Speaker 4 in

Speaker 4 what we expect of life every day, we need to be so flexible. Otherwise, we're going to run into that resistance.
And then that need, I mean, the more we can actively be flexible every day, the better.

Speaker 4 Not flexible with our values necessarily, but flexible enough to go with the flow of life as it shifts and changes at astronomical levels.

Speaker 4 And I think it's going to keep doing it for a little bit longer.

Speaker 2 Yeah, forever. Yeah.
I really relate to the idea of strong opinions loosely held.

Speaker 2 Like I come into every situation knowing exactly how I feel about the thing. And then I just try, and then I'm just like, huh,

Speaker 2 shift, shift based on what the other person says, says, right? So it doesn't mean you don't, you can't be a passionate person.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. We can be passionate as long as we're open.
Sometimes we can just be so sure we know things.

Speaker 4 And we've maybe reached a certain level of understanding, but we don't necessarily really know it yet. And we're about to learn.
I mean, life can be a very exciting journey.

Speaker 4 And I don't like to just throw that out because it can get very

Speaker 4 cliche-ish.

Speaker 4 But it can be even now as we're challenged, as we're challenged. It's an exciting time for each of us to be alive.
It is. A challenging time.

Speaker 4 It's going to challenge us at levels we've not been challenged before.

Speaker 2 Yay.

Speaker 4 And the reason we've been getting all these superpowers from recovery since the 1970s.

Speaker 4 is not so we can keep them on our vanity in our bedroom and use them when we want to do a powder puff on our face. It's because we're really going to need them.

Speaker 4 we're going to need these personal skills it's not all been about nonsense it's happening for a reason so

Speaker 4 do yourself another favor we all do keep track of your own growth don't just go out in that garden and look at how that plant has grown every year go out every month or every time you do something or you feel good about something you've done you know a little pat on the back doesn't hurt does it we can you know humbly keep trying

Speaker 4 and we can humbly feel good about the good we've done.

Speaker 4 Keeping in mind, that's just my opinion today.

Speaker 2 We like it.

Speaker 2 We live to please you, Melody. We

Speaker 2 just want you to like us. And if there's anything we can do to help you.

Speaker 3 I'll let you know.

Speaker 2 Okay. Thank you.
Thanks.

Speaker 4 I will let you know. Until then, just please keep being yourselves.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So this is we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Besides dealing with the world and all the anxiety in the world, what is the thing that you are working on right now in terms of this that you're trying not to control, that you're trying to live from your home with?

Speaker 4 I think that would take more time than we have in this podcast. There's another book going to follow this one, and it's called Living by Spirit.
I don't want to mix the lessons up too much.

Speaker 4 But waking up at age 70

Speaker 4 and having to start completely over again

Speaker 4 as a single woman in LA and 70 years old. So there's been a few challenges with that, you know, concerning surrender, concerning acceptance.

Speaker 4 And then starting over again. I don't know if y'all have had to do it.
I'm guessing the answer is yes.

Speaker 4 I never thought I'd have to do it again at age 70.

Speaker 4 And I would say for the most part,

Speaker 4 most days, I'm pretty chill with it. I'm pretty good with it.
Although sometimes I do feel like I've been hogtied and I'm just laying here trying to get out of the ropes.

Speaker 4 I would say that is the biggest challenge I'm facing right now.

Speaker 4 Waking up alive, being told that you have life, a lot potentially of life left at age 70 in LA has been the biggest challenge that I've had to face.

Speaker 2 That's amazing. I got to tell you, I had strong opinions, Lucly Held.

Speaker 2 I thought we were going to come on this interview and you were going to to just give us a bunch of lists and reasons we were codependent.

Speaker 2 And instead, I feel like, I just feel like you gave us just some peace.

Speaker 2 I've just loved this hour with you. I feel

Speaker 2 more in my home than I did when we started.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I just think you're wonderful.

Speaker 2 But I also think I'm wonderful, Melody. And I'm not focusing on the fact that you're wonderful, but that I'm wondering.

Speaker 4 I think you're wonderful too. I think the group is wonderful.

Speaker 4 And it's been my pleasure to share light with you.

Speaker 3 Can I just ask one teeny tiny question?

Speaker 3 For those of us for whom we hear you on the returning home, good idea.

Speaker 2 Great.

Speaker 3 Let's do that. What if our home is like a bit disorderly?

Speaker 3 Their home is under construction. It's just, it's kind of chaotic in there.

Speaker 3 So we're not totally sure that returning home is going to feel as comforting as it seems to be for y'all. So do you have any suggestions on that?

Speaker 4 That's pretty much how my home felt when I realized I had to start over at age 70.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 4 wasn't gangbusters for it.

Speaker 4 And it wasn't necessarily pleasant, but it was surrendering to and going through the process of getting comfortable with it.

Speaker 4 And sometimes it felt like I was being burned with lasers, you know, on my brain, on my spirit, on my emotions. It's not always that painful, but but sometimes it is.
Sometimes it can be brutal.

Speaker 4 Life can actually be brutal in moments, but we get through them, don't we?

Speaker 4 The storms do pass. We get through them.
And

Speaker 4 if we're looking, we'll see that we've grown, we've changed, and we will feel a little more confident in our ability to surrender to and trust life.

Speaker 2 Amen.

Speaker 3 So you don't wait until it's orderly to go home.

Speaker 4 You just go home and work on it until it's start cleaning it and straightening it up best you can.

Speaker 2 Because there's also a place.

Speaker 2 Like I'm not 70, I'm 46, but I'm just starting this whole new freaking

Speaker 2 level of therapy that I just didn't work things out before. So now I'm back to the damn work.

Speaker 2 And I have never felt more like it's more important to get back to home. But there's different levels of home.

Speaker 2 You go home and you're in your scattered, horrible place where all the memories and the thing are coming.

Speaker 2 But then there's like a sinking to like this little safe room that was never affected by any of the ghosts in the house.

Speaker 2 There is a place to get to that is not the rest of the cluttered house, like this little room.

Speaker 3 It is.

Speaker 4 When I started.

Speaker 4 redoing my life at age 70, I also started remodeling my home. And remodeling your home while you're living in it is like making the bed while you're in it.

Speaker 4 It is just terrible, horrendously uncomfortable. And yet, I was that uncomfortable within myself.

Speaker 4 And I had to be patient. I had, and the most important thing I had to realize is if I couldn't be happy

Speaker 4 and grateful for everything in my life right now, I would not be happy or grateful when those things came along. They would be like something else that was just passing by.

Speaker 4 We make ourselves happy at home or not or we accept it when we're not who whoever is happy all the time when they're home no one

Speaker 4 so

Speaker 1 i mean on behalf of my 20 year old self i'm now 42 i just want to say thank you so much for giving me the language back then

Speaker 1 um to know that i had a life a life's work ahead of me and i think that I don't know if you meant this at the time,

Speaker 1 but it's really a feminist manifesto of women returning to their homes. And I just, on behalf of all women everywhere, I want to thank you for your work and sharing this hour with us.

Speaker 2 Every woman needs a room in her own home of her damn own.

Speaker 4 Well, we were told we didn't have homes. Yeah.

Speaker 4 But we could clean up their homes. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And keep them nice and cozy. I know, I know, I know.
But the good news is we're being evolved.

Speaker 4 We're being changed. We're growing.
That's right.

Speaker 2 We love you, Melody.

Speaker 3 Give your daughter a big hug from us.

Speaker 2 Yes, please.

Speaker 4 All right. I will.
She'll be thrilled.

Speaker 1 What's her name?

Speaker 2 Nicole. Hi, Nicole.
Hi, Nicole.

Speaker 2 For the rest of you, pod squatters,

Speaker 2 just find some time to get home this week. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We love you so much. See you next week.
Bye.

Speaker 2 I loved that so much. You're incredible.
Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 3 You know what? It's just like this thing where you know you have a really good friend when you don't clean up your house before they come in.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, that's

Speaker 3 be like the best friend to you.

Speaker 3 You don't need to clean up your own house before you go home.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 We mind fuck ourselves so much. We do.

Speaker 4 Just continually, constantly pick on ourselves.

Speaker 4 It was my pleasure. I hope we meet this way again.

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