The Summer of Night Vale Presents, Part 1

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Hey there.

As usual, welcome to Night Vale is on hiatus for the month of July before bursting back in August with new episodes, plus a run at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival I'm very excited about.

During this month off, we are doing something we're calling the Summer of Night Vale Presents.

Every Friday during this July, we will be celebrating and sampling some of the other amazing work being done on the Night Vale Presents network.

Obviously, we are known for our fiction podcasting, but in this first part of our Summer of Night Vale Presents celebration, we are looking at some of our non-fiction work.

First off, we're going to start with a short excerpt from a podcast I made last year called I Only Listen to the Mountain Goats.

It is a show in which I sit down with one of my artistic heroes, John Darneill, singer and songwriter of the band The Mountain Goats, and talk about his songs, about art, and about whatever the hell we wanted to talk about.

You don't have to know anything about my work or even his work.

It's not just for fans of the Mountain Goats.

It's a long-form experiment in what it means to be a fan, to be an artist, and as many of us are, to be both at once.

Vulture named it one of their best podcasts of the year, saying that it is, quote, a sensational and spirited idea surpassed only by the wonder of its execution.

Here is a bit of our conversation from the episode discussing John's song, The Mess Inside, that gives, I think, some sense of how these conversations wandered through topics in ways I really enjoyed.

Today we're going to be talking about the mess inside.

John, the mess inside, go.

It's in G.

Sounds good.

And I'm trying to.

We were doing it on the last happy night of your life tour, which was the tour I did with khaki king and uh

it's one of the ones that i remember very vividly the last night of tour webster hall it being really good that night

i don't know that we've played it much since right it's like you have some songs where you have a night where you have a definitive version and you go yeah i don't know whether there's any point in doing it anymore with moon over goldsborough i've done it since but there was a version in austin also on that tour i was like Moon over Goldsboro is done.

That was it.

So it's one of a couple, we talked about this, that it's visiting a theme I've been worrying for about, what is it?

So it's 2000, so really not for that long, four or five years at this point.

I've been sort of chewing on couples

who are unhealthy together.

But this one, it's a lot more nuanced because they're not, you know, they're having some drinks, but they're not alcoholics necessarily.

They're not in peril.

They are trying to recapture something that is lost.

And I feel like that is actually a big theme in my writing since then, that prior to that, the way I would look at it, and I hate to put it this way, because, you know, if you're really young, you don't like to hear that there's some stuff that it helps to have a couple more years, more rings around your trunk when you're writing.

But loss is a thing that grows bigger as you have more to lose and as the distance between the things you lost and you grows greater, right?

It's like the broader the distance, the more there is to say about it, really, especially when if you get to a point where you lost something and then you can't remember what it was because it was so long ago.

And in this one,

it's a sad song about people who are taking a geographical, they're going here and there trying to fix something that is irreparably broken.

And the speaker knows that, right?

He knows well he's doing it, which I think is really sad, right?

Like, that's what makes it sad.

It's a little sad if you'll say, well, we'll take a vacation and that will fix our marriage, right?

But it's sadder if both people know it's not going to work, you know, and that's the case.

It's one of the darker realizations of that one, of that concept that I think I have done.

We took a weekend, drove to Provo.

The snow was white and fluffy.

A weekend in Utah won't fix what's wrong with us.

The gray sky was vast and real, cryptic above me.

I wanted you

to love me like you used to do.

We took two weeks in the Bahamas.

Went out dancing every night.

Tried to fight the creeping sense of dread with temporal things.

Most of the time, I guess I felt alright.

But I wanted you

to love me like you used to do.

But you cannot run,

and you cannot hide

from the wreck we've made of our house

and from the mess inside

We went down to New Orleans

One weekend in the spring

Looked hard for what we'd lost

It was painful to admit it

But we couldn't find a thing

I wanted you

to love me like you used to do

We went to New York City in September

Took the train out of Manhattan to the Grand Army stop Found that bench we'd sat together on a thousand years ago

When I felt such love for you I thought my heart was gonna pop

I wanted you

to love me like you used to do

But I can't hide one

and I can't hide

from the wreck we've made of the powerhouse

from the mess inside.

You mentioned it was in G, and so with fault lines, you have a thing where it starts out with theoretically a happy sounding scenario, but we're in minor chords.

Right, it starts in major G, but then there's like three minors in a row.

And then this one, it is immediately basically a sad subject, and yet we're in major chords.

Yeah.

No, it's a big, it's a big pronouncing, triumphant sounding song.

But I mean, I think that's in part because that chorus is so naked.

And I always feel like telling the truth is powerful.

This is just a story, right?

It's not about me or anything.

But the speaker is saying something very true that you generally wouldn't say.

Let's imagine that your marriage perished.

The thought is in this sort of situation.

For you to actually look somebody dead in the eye and go, the problem is us.

The problem is us.

It's not anything else.

The problem is between us and the mess is too great to clean up.

You would almost never say that.

If you were to say that, you'd say it in anger.

You'd say it as an accusation.

You would say, you have made a giant mess.

Now we can't clean it up because of the mess you made, you might say.

But it's unlikely that Amy would get to this point of honesty of going,

neither one of us can get away from this mess that we are both responsible for.

right and it's like i like that in that way i think it's a little bit of a study for tallahassee because tallahassee is loaded with the sort of of insight that the Tallahassee couple, if they were real people, would never actually have.

They wouldn't get to that level of being able to actually describe the chaos that they keep producing.

So

with this song going with my theory that is not at all endorsed by John Darnell or the Mountain Goats, that this is the second part of a trilogy that starts with riches and wonders.

Right.

So this is the.

Oh, what's the third part?

The third part, in my theory, is Jeff Davis counting blues.

The third part, it remains to be seen.

No, it's this, it's so they all three center on this idea of a relationship as a home.

And they all, you know, in the very first one, as you, as you said, there's a there's a hint of darkness there, right?

But it is ultimately a loving song.

Yes.

And then this is one where that has, the tipping point has arrived.

Right.

And then the third one in this trilogy that you don't endorse as a trilogy is a point where it is long gone and it is a person remembered.

He's by himself.

Yeah.

He's a.

Yeah,

I like this through line.

I like it.

I don't,

you know, Jeff Davis just seems, like I was saying, I like this song and I like the other one, but Jeff Davis does seem like that's it's a more mature song.

And I don't know if I was then or am now a good enough writer to plot a three-song cycle where the third one is also the best one.

It's like, because usually I find in writing cycles that the early stuff in the cycle has that power of the newness.

And that's one thing that can be a real struggle when you're writing songs that are all on the same theme is staying

maintaining that level of passion about the thing that when you first started writing, you're like, oh, this is a great idea.

Check these guys out.

They're hilarious.

They're going to drink all night, right?

And you get very excited.

That's what was really a huge, not a challenge, but was surprising me about Tallahassee because I had stopped writing about those guys.

I felt bad about those guys.

I was tired of just punishing them every time I wrote about them.

And then I said, well, I'll do this.

And I remained focused long enough that every song that made the album, I feel strongly about.

And the ones that we didn't wind up recording or that didn't make, that we did recording to make the album are sort of the ones where it sort of feels like I'm not as connected, except for Alpha Chum Gatherer, which I really liked, and I wish we had nailed.

We were talking about with Riches and Wonders, because it's a seven-chord song and it has a much more complex

riff to it.

This one has three.

This one has three, but for a lot of it, it has two.

Yeah.

There's a D that shows up in the chorus, but other than that, it is a G and C.

There you go, you're good.

You got a riff, and you got a G and a C.

But I mean, everybody knows that's all you need if you have a good idea, right?

G, C, and D, it is, oh, yeah, you can

live in that chord pattern, you don't even need the D.

Anybody who's ever seen a Jonathan Richmond show knows all that, and he's a very good guitarist, is the thing.

It's kind of the secret about Jonathan Richmond is like, if you watch him, you go, oh, yeah, what you're doing worships at the altar of simplicity, but you yourself are not simple.

But, But yeah, no, this one is like it's dumb thumb dum thumb.

That's all there is to it.

You know, it's a thing that's like,

so I watch a lot of cooking competitions and stuff.

And the thing that always comes up is the, you know, when you make something very simple, like when you're just like, I'm just going to make some roast chicken and some vegetables,

you have to do it perfectly because there's nowhere to hide.

Right.

You know, when you do like a very complex sauce and stuff,

You can kind of fake it by like adjusting.

But there is something about when you decide I'm going to do something that is this simple, that is G and C, right?

You got nowhere to hide.

You have to really nail that.

It has to be.

That's an interesting way that

I hadn't thought of it that way because when I started doing just G and C's, it's because I only knew the super basics, but by this point, yeah, I know more, but I could feel that strum pattern for one thing is not a typical strum pattern for me.

The emphasis is the way that it lands on, where is it?

Two.

It lands on the two and four, but it's not, you know, my typical here, I have to do this so here's here's your default mountain goes

so many old songs go like that but there's also

there was it's that's just a folks from pattern but this one

and like this guitar is out of tune but like i don't think there's anything prior to this one that does that i mean it's a country color in your cheeks is similar it is also on the two and four

yeah Okay, so it's doing it, but it is a two and four one.

Same beats, yeah, but that's trumpet.

It's very Texas.

Uh-huh.

Right?

So you get ready for them to go.

Or I left my dog down by the roadside, right?

Something like that.

Something like that.

It's got a loping Texas swing to it.

And that's not something I had really worked with before, in part because I have the same sort of goth, punk rock, alternative culture, anti-country biases that I had carried until the, I would say, early 90s, late 80s when I bought Roseanne Cash's interiors and the whole world just cracked open for me.

So, and then I discovered Hank Williams, of course, and you go, oh, you don't like country music, eh?

You're an idiot.

You're an idiot.

It's like this guy's God walking the earth.

But yeah, I had never really thought about doing it.

And then the other thing is that you discover, I mean, that's fake country.

Country musicians are kind of like reggae musicians in that you hear it and you just hear people playing.

But once you become a player, you listen to old country records, records, you go, oh my God, everybody on this track is an absolute badass.

Like everybody on this track is so good that they have no desire for you to notice at all, right?

They're not, you know, maybe the guy who solos does, but everybody else is just locking in and staying right there.

You listen to Bakersfield, Country, Buck O and stuff.

It's like, oh my God, best musicians in the world, you know.

So, whereas I can't do that, so I tend to shy away from trying to do that, getting there.

So, taking it back to this song, he had this whole series of songs that is not in this album at all, the going to songs.

Yes.

Which this feels at least somewhat kindred to.

Well, it's sort of explicitly stating what the point.

The thing is, one funny thing about early mountain goats and about a lot of music before anybody thinks that anybody outside their hometown is ever going to listen.

One thing about when you're in a local scene is there are often a lot of songs that are actually addressed to or are members of the local scene or are, you know, whose point will be best apprehended by people who've been seeing you every week, you know, who you see every day walking around town.

And the going-to songs, although I didn't explicitly state this when I was singing them, but they were made to make fun of people from where I'm from, not anybody specifically because there were so many of them who you'd see them at coffee on a Saturday night and they would go, ah, I am so tired of this town and all its bullshit.

I am going to go to New York because people know what's up in New York.

Man, over here, this is a bunch of clowns, right?

And they would say that, you know, or San Francisco, a lot of people are going to go, man, I'm only back here until I can make enough money to move to San Francisco because it sucks here.

It's always sucked here.

I just realized most people doing this are never going to leave ever, right?

They're not, if they leave, they're going to go away for like six weeks.

And then for the next seven years, they'll never shut up about how great it was wherever it was they went.

There's a line about this actually on the news.

I was just thinking about him guns.

Dave went to

out there

well that's that was the impulse is like people would go to New York they come back after their first after their first semester at at uh you know Columbia or whatever and go man you people You people are just like backwards children fumbling around in the dark.

Where it's going down is in New York.

And I, one,

am in love with California and will be for my whole life, especially Southern California.

And two, I would just feel a little defense, very defensive.

I'd be like, what are you even talking about?

There is no place, I still believe this, there's no place that you can live that

isn't awesome if you are willing to, one, invest yourself in it.

And two, find out what's awesome, right?

I mean, that's, you know, no place, absolutely every place rules, you know, some places you're going to vibe with more than others.

But,

but so I started on going to songs to make fun of people who thought, I'm going to fix my life by moving to thus and such a place, because you're not, because you learn this in recovery.

It's like, this is the way they put it in recovery, wherever you go, there you are, right?

Well, if you think everybody around you is a clown and can't figure stuff out in California, I guarantee you.

When you move to New York, six months later, you're going to say, man, this place was cool when I got here.

Now, now, I don't know, man, there's all these bridge and tunnel people or whatever.

It's like, you will suddenly become that person.

You will never find the New York that you visited because now you live there, right?

And that was my position very strongly back then.

I believe in more shadings of that.

Now I'm not as judgmental of, you know,

the passes people go through.

But that's what those were about.

This song is the most articulate.

statement of that, I think.

You know, it's like it's a much more forgiving version than having these narrators who are just like, everything's terrible, but I'm going to go to Spain.

Right.

So, you know, these guys, like, they know, they know that they're not, that it's not gonna work.

It's like, it doesn't matter how much fun they have.

They know they're trying to chase down something they can't recover.

I mean, it's a stall, basically.

It's, it's playing for time.

It's, it's, it is delaying judgment.

Who doesn't want to delay judgment?

Yeah, I mean, there's something about this song where, you know, because like music becomes shaded by who you were when you heard it and what was going on.

And I think it's very, very the same way with places, right?

Yeah.

Like a place isn't a place a place is who you were when you visited that place absolutely that's beautifully put and like this song feels like that to me you know there's lots of places places i first went when i was like 19 and not happy with my life and trying to figure things out will for you know i i took a trip i was miserable in college i hated college and

uh uh uc santa barbara

um it wasn't the college's fault it was my fault i just i made myself miserable in college but i had a somebody I sort of knew in class who moved to Dublin.

And she was like, if you ever want to come to Dublin, you can crash my couch.

So I immediately booked tickets because I was like, I'm going to take this trip to Dublin.

And I went to Dublin.

And for the rest of my life, I think Dublin will be tied to this feeling of showing up in Dublin and being really, yeah, the whole...

I went to Dublin and I was still me.

Yeah.

Like I went to Dublin.

I still didn't know what I wanted to do with my life and I was still pretty much.

Yeah,

I blamed Portland for how miserable I was in Portland for so long.

And now I know that the time I was in Portland, you know, that Portland will never be seen on this earth again.

Right.

It was like, now it was run down.

Portland's fine now, but it was like, you can't believe how,

well, it's kind of like New York.

It's like, you know, Portland was gritty back then.

Like Portland is not the grittiest place in the world now.

But for years,

I still get the vibe when I go there.

I was like, I go to Portland, I walk around, and I still feel a little threatened.

Portland, Oregon, Oregon, of all places, but it's because I was a mess when I was there.

But the thing about this song, again, is that these people are, they're mature enough that they know what they're doing.

They're consciously trying to do it.

They're having a good time, but the good time is informed by the fact that it's not going to make a difference, that it's

whistling past the graveyard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As I've gotten older, I feel like I've learned to embrace the fact that a place is entirely subjective.

Yeah.

And I've just, you know, especially, you know, now that I tour tour and I go a lot of places, I've just learned to just embrace my gut feeling about a place.

You know, the fact I love Seattle.

Seattle is my absolute favorite city in this country.

And I'm not that into Portland.

Yeah.

And they're similar and they're not that far away.

And I don't have any sort of objective reason for that other than when I'm in Seattle, I feel really happy.

Yeah.

It just makes, it's a city that makes me feel happy and I don't have a specific reason.

Yeah.

It's weird.

And Portland for me is a place I used to live and it's a place I almost died and it's a place where people saved my life.

And so it's, I got a bunch of different bunch of stuff I know what you mean it's like you you don't you can't really define what you did or didn't like about a place and some of it has to do with this I think I may have already quoted this line at some point but uh you know the uh Christmas Carol when Scrooge is talking to Marley and Marley is shaking his chain and Scrooge says you may be an undigested bit of beef

it's like you may not this isn't this is just something I ate you know and uh and it's sometimes that's what it is it's like you you didn't have enough sleep when you got there and but I the thing is i never my assumption is that every town is good i'm trying to think of what we've been to towns we've had bad shows and then you wind up going i'm not going back there because that show was bad right and then of course sometimes you wind up back there again you go wow this place is awesome it's like because now i'm having a good time and and the show is nice so yeah i mean that's the thing is you know this couple they're forever provo is going to be a sad and Yeah, unhappy place for them.

Absolutely.

Nothing to do with provo and everything to do with who they were when they went there.

Totally.

You know, I'm glad I got Provo mentioned in one song because I had a friend,

actually, a friend whose hospitalization inspired Best Ever Death Metal Band.

Provo was where they sent him.

Yeah, the elders showed up at his house one morning and said we can do this the easy way or the hard way.

And his girlfriend found out after he was gone.

She called me, so they took him.

What?

And he was not.

The thing was like...

Some people who that happens to were into some bad stuff.

My dude was not really into any bad stuff.

He was a pretty innocent and good and smart dude, but he's a professor of philosophy now, so it's okay.

Yeah, it turns out sometimes.

Sometimes it doesn't.

Not for everybody in that hospital, I bet it didn't.

No.

You can listen to episodes of I Only Listen to the Mountain Goats in your favorite podcast app or by visiting IonlyListen to the Mountain Goats.com.

If you enjoyed what you just heard, consider listening to all of season one available now.

Season two of I Only Listen to the Mountain Goats is coming this fall, in which we will be discussing John's album Transcendental Youth, as well as probably a lot of other stuff that we stumble onto.

Next up is one of our absolute most talked about shows, Conversations with People Who Hate Me.

In this show, Dylan Marin, who you may know as Carlos the Scientist on Night Vale, takes contentious online conversations and moves them offline.

This year, Dylan has been moderating conversations between people who have exchanged online negativity.

BuzzFeed called this show a must-listen podcast of 2018.

These conversations are tense and breathtaking and gripping.

He's held conversations between a trans soldier and a gay Marine who supports the trans ban.

He talked to a woman who sent herself homophobic messages as a form of digital self-harm.

And then there is this conversation.

Between a woman who wrote about why the TV show The Office doesn't hold up to today's standards and a man who told her she should be burned at the stake for saying so.

Let's listen to episode 12 of Conversations with People Who Hate Me, Burned at the Stake.

Hey, I'm Dylan Maron and welcome back to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I take negative online conversations and move them from comment sections and inboxes to phone calls.

Sometimes I have one-on-one conversations with people who have written negative things to or about me on the internet, and other times I connect two strangers who have engaged in their own online negativity.

Today, I'll be connecting people.

My first guest is Jaya, who wrote an essay about the American television show The Office, specifically questioning if the show holds up by today's standards.

The essay was tweeted out, and in response, a man named Tom replied, you should be burned at the stake for disrespecting the office.

Also, stop being a pussy.

PC is for non-self-aware pussies.

Okay, so first I'll talk one-on-one to Jaya, then I'll talk one-on-one to Tom, and then I'll connect the two of them to each other.

Let's get started.

Hi, Jaya.

Hi, Dylan.

How are you?

I'm good.

So you're a writer.

I am a writer.

Tell me when that started.

It's been around for a long time.

Writing.

Writing.

The art of writing.

Got it.

I really started realizing that this is what I wanted to do as a career toward the end of college.

But at this point, I've been doing it for about a decade.

So you write very publicly online.

Yes, I do.

And sometimes things you write online go viral.

Yes, they do.

So you recently wrote a piece critiquing the television show The Office.

Yes, I did.

What made you write that piece?

So the piece was essentially looking back at The Office, you know, from where we stand in 2018 and seeing how it feels.

So I revisited it and sort of to my horror and disappointment, found that I had a really hard time finding it as funny as I did when I first watched it.

And a lot of what The Office deals with is you know, this very bad boss, this boss who says a lot of racist, sexist things and thinks they're funny and sort of traumatizes his employees.

And how does that look and how does that feel at a moment where we're all talking about workplace harassment and sexual harassment and you know, these things that have very real consequences?

Have you ever been criticized for being too politically correct?

And I'm asking this as someone who has always been criticized for being too politically correct.

Yeah, you know, it's funny.

I think that

I think I very much used to be the person that would do the criticizing.

Oh, really?

In a way?

In what context?

I think I was very enamored with being the cool girl for a long time.

But I think I also was fed the idea that being politically correct was that you were just doing this to score brownie points with some

unknown entity rather than for the direct betterment of yourself and the people around you.

So, you know, I very much understand where

that reticence to accept the idea of political correctness comes from.

But

since I have embraced being the social justice warrior and being that person, I have certainly been accused of being too politically correct on things.

Right.

Do you still love the office?

I don't think I will be able to give up the office.

I think that there are a lot of things in it that I really love.

I think it might be a while before I sit down and watch it all again.

But I, you know, I still think that there are so many good performances in the office.

I think there are so many good jokes in the office.

I by no means want everyone to just completely wash their hands of it and think that this was, well, it's wholly bad and we can just never talk about it again.

I just think it's always useful

look at the art that we love and think about why we love it and

what are some difficult things in it, but

you know, you're still allowed to love it.

Well, I was just going to ask, do you think that by criticizing, critiquing a piece of art, a television show, a movie, a book, that

you're taking away from it?

No.

I don't think that critiquing something means you can't appreciate it or enjoy it or be a fan of it.

I think this is all

part of being a fan and all part of being somebody who enjoys various forms of art.

I would much rather live in the world where we can have these honest, difficult conversations than just accept everything at face value.

You know, look,

anytime we experience art,

We're experiencing it and bringing into it our entire life experiences.

I can't watch the office as not a woman.

I can't watch the office as

not a person of Indian heritage when I watch Michael Scott, you know, make racist remarks to Kelly.

I can't not be an Indian woman when that happens.

And

as much as the phrase triggering will trigger people who are against it,

that brings up visceral reactions.

And sometimes I can move past them and see where the humor is, and sometimes I can't.

Nobody watches a TV show in a vacuum.

And because of that,

everybody is going to have their own experience.

And that's why I can't get mad if someone criticizes it because someone else is going to watch The Office with their own context and it's going to bring up their own feelings to it that are going to be completely different than mine.

And I'll never experience that and they'll never experience the way I watch it.

Yeah.

And this is a great segue because

in a tweet responding to that article, someone wrote, You should be burned at the stake for disrespecting the office.

Also, stop being a pussy.

PC is for non-self-aware pussies.

So, how does it feel to see a response like that?

As a non-self-aware pussy.

As a non-self-aware pussy, yeah.

Um,

I've certainly had people get mad at me online before about various things, and sometimes it it hits very personally uh if this were in response to an article i maybe wrote to more of a personal essay that i wrote about my experience i think i would have been a lot more upset or a lot more traumatized by it um but the fact that it was about the office i think let me uh

let me step back from it a little bit just because

I'm,

you know, it's about the office.

I don't need the office in my life.

I like the office.

I'm happy that it exists and that it's brought joy to so many people, but it's not like a fundamental part of my identity that I was being attacked for.

And so I was more just curious about what

makes somebody

love a piece of art so much

that this is the sort of vitriol that they're going to go after someone who gives it.

In my opinion, it was a mild critique.

So, Jaya, are you curious about the person who wrote this tweet?

I am.

I definitely am.

Hello?

Hey, is this Tom?

Yes, it is.

Let me get outside and you can hear me a little better.

My friend needs his quiet in here.

He's playing a very intense new video game.

Okay, great.

I support that.

Okay.

All right.

Okay.

Can you hear me okay?

I can hear you.

Great.

This is perfect.

All right.

So, Tom, how is your day going?

Let's just start there.

It's going pretty well.

A bit of a late night and it's raining now, but everything is all better now.

I've had my coffee.

Well, congratulations.

You're living the life.

Yes.

Okay, let's start here.

So only in as many details as you're comfortable sharing.

Tell me about you.

Okay.

Geez, I don't even know where to start.

I have a dog who I love very much, and her name is Athena, and she's a pit bull.

But she's awesome.

She just wants cuddles.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I just recently started playing basketball.

I'm a little on the chubbier side, so I liked it.

It's a good way to lose weight.

Pretty quiet, old school kind of guy.

I like to read.

I like a nice glass of scotch and a cigar.

Nice.

Fancy.

I guess, I guess.

So I'll bring it up.

The tweet that we are here to discuss is that in response to someone's essay about the television show The Office,

you wrote, you should be burned at the stake for disrespecting the office.

Also, stop being a pussy.

PC is for non-self-aware pussies.

So, Tom, what inspired you to write that?

The gentleman is saying that the office is not, it's a dude, right?

No, it's actually a woman.

Okay,

the woman is saying that the office is not

politically correct and it doesn't really, I don't know, kind of like belong in this generation's TV sphere.

There is a sense that you need to really watch out with what you're saying because you're not socially cool if you're not offended greatly by something.

And I'm the type of person that I don't really take

offense to things.

And I find that my life is a lot easier and less stressful that way.

But the office really had a way of bringing something out of me that's, I don't know, it's it gives you a warm and fuzzy on the inside.

I'm not very good at all this Hallmark stuff.

Yeah, so like, what is it about the office that gives you that warm feeling?

It basically tracks these people for 10 years of their lives.

And you see them grow for 10 years.

And watching that show, honestly, you know, it did a really big thing for me emotionally.

And again, I'm not trying to get all hallmarked, but,

you know, it really did.

It made me think about things a different way.

I guess my feathers got a little ruffled when

she wrote that article.

Yeah, like I get the idea of being defensive about this thing that is near and dear to you.

But at the same time, I also think that

what you wrote is offensive, right?

The idea that you told someone to burn at the stake, I'd call that offensive.

That is definitely offensive, and I probably shouldn't have said that, but I did.

Okay, but you did.

Do you regret saying it?

That's a tough question.

Let me give you a two-part answer.

I'll take it.

Part A, no, no,

no, because I'm very unapologetic.

And I know full well that this is not the right way to conduct being a person.

And I'm working on that in 2018.

New Year, new me, hashtag, bless us.

And here is side B of designal.

I do want to change as a person.

Some people would describe me as

a dick.

So I'm really trying

not to be a dick.

And what I said earlier was being a dick.

And I am sorry for being a dick.

I shouldn't have been a dick.

So why the hashtag new year, new me?

It's a popular hashtag on Twitter.

No, totally, but like, why for you?

Well, I,

to be perfectly honest with you, I'm not a very open-minded person.

I'm the kind of person that sees someone who is different than me, and I immediately kind of feel uncomfortable.

You know, in the spirit of full disclosure,

that's been with people of different races

people of different creeds people

who are part of the lesbian gay community I know that it's LG I don't know what the there's four letters and I don't know what they are L G B T Q I A yeah yeah yeah that yeah that part of the yeah the members of that community and

you know from this span of a few months in particular from

being around all those different types of people and talking to them and learning their story, I almost feel kind of stupid that I've been this closed-minded all this time.

I know, and I'm sure if you're comfortable with me talking about this,

you told me you were gay.

Is it cool if we discuss that?

Of course.

I, you know, dude, if you told me that like two or three years ago,

promise you, you can write this on a rock that we would not be having this conversation right now.

You wouldn't even want to talk, right?

No, no, as soon as I found out that fact, uh, I, we

that would have been the end of that conversation.

Uh,

and now I'm kind of kicking myself in the ass because oh, dude, you're a fucking cool guy.

Like, well, thanks, Tom.

You seem like a pretty, pretty chill mofo.

So,

I appreciate that.

Yeah,

um and I dude I wouldn't have even gotten the opportunity to do this honestly this is cool as shit I feel like a movie star right now you are look at you you're on the podcast radio waves hell yeah but you were saying that you would not have even agreed to this conversation a few years ago if I'm being honest with you like

you know, I was very,

I had my head up my ass at that point.

And now it's, it's still up my ass, but like my chin and my nose are out.

So I'm still,

you know,

I'm working on it.

I'm still kind of an asshole,

hence

the tweet.

But

I am working on it.

You first.

I'm going to say something super cliche, and then I'll stop talking, you know, profusely.

No, this is great.

I think to close out my babbling bullshit, people are trying way too hard.

They are seeking

to be understood.

First,

I don't think there is enough

of

seeking to understand

before

seeking to be understood.

Does that make any sense?

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people want to explain themselves more than they want to listen.

Yes.

Yes, exactly.

So, with that being said are you ready to talk to the author of this essay about the office are you ready

yes i'm ready i'll take that as a yes

hi tom hello jaya i did not know your name i'm sorry it's it's a very pretty name that's okay but look at you guys jaya and tom we're here we're on the call all together let's get cracking So, first of all, how are you guys feeling?

Tom, how are you feeling?

Pretty good.

Well, and I have had my coffee, so I'm very amicable.

I'm okay, perfect.

Jaya, how are you doing?

I too have had coffee.

I'm feeling good.

Okay, perfect.

Let's get a shout-out to Coffee real quick.

Can we get that going on?

Coffee is sponsoring this whole episode.

Just the general idea of coffee.

Making my whole day possible.

Yeah, exactly.

Yes.

So to get things started, I want you guys to get to know who you are beyond this moment that you've intersected at on the internet so Jaya tell Tom about you um

hi

I uh I am a born and raised New Yorker I am married I have two cats okay okay I've been a writer in some capacity for most of my career whether that was me doing it on the side while I had other jobs

or me doing it full-time, right now I'm a freelancer, so I am

just

at the whim of any editor who wants to give me an assignment and pay me.

Okay, all right.

And my mother's white, my dad's from India.

Okay.

It sounds like, honestly, you and I would probably have a lot of the same tastes in comedy.

My dad raised me on Monty Python, on

Mel Brooks.

Mel Brooks is the man.

That was, you know, this was all

I feel like

my deep comedy sensibilities, whatever they are, were influenced by these works.

So there was a lot there that I really, really love and continue to love.

And

I feel like that's always been a huge part of my life.

Yeah.

Now, Tom, again, in as many details as you're comfortable with uh tell jai about you okay

um

i'm tom

damn this has always been a tough question for you dude they ask me what am i like

uh

i'm he would probably tell you i'm fucking weird

I have a dog.

Her name is Athena.

She just turned 18 in dog years.

Oh, happy birthday.

Happy birthday.

Two and five eighths in human years.

I'm trying to keep track.

I just played her all the Fast and Furious movies.

She's old enough to watch those.

Oh, yes.

I also love the Fast and Furious movies.

Yeah, okay.

Which one's the best?

Ooh,

that's a Tassa between five and seven for me.

Oh, I'm a number three man.

It's all about the Tokyo Drift.

Tokyo Drift is also very good.

Yeah.

So switching gears a little here, Tom, can you tell Jaya why you wrote in response to her article, you should be burned at the stake for disrespecting the office.

Also, stop being a pussy.

PC is for non-self-aware pussies.

I would like to go on record as

saying

that I did indeed say that.

Okay, great.

I mean, I got a little upset that you wrote that article.

I understand that, you know, some of the things that they say in the office are offensive to certain people, but they really do let everybody have it.

Everybody gets the sauce.

I trademark that.

By the way.

Everybody gets the sauce in the office, which, you know,

I guess it's offensive to everybody, but they're not singling out one group of people in particular, which that would not, I mean, that would not sit very kosher with me.

And I just think

that

today it's become more

of almost like a social necessity to find

one thing or a group of things to be super offended at.

And I kind of, you know, I kind of personally blew your article off as, you know, saying, like, come on, you know, it's, it's fucking funny.

Like, it's, you know, and I think you said, correct me if I'm wrong, please,

that it's like kind of more or less doesn't really belong on TV in our generation.

Well,

I think more of the point that I was trying to make is that, you know, given these, a lot of these conversations about sexual harassment in and outside the workplace and other forms of harassment, that it's not that it, not that people can't watch it or enjoy it, but that

right now, at least for me, it was harder to watch it without immediately thinking of all these conversations and without it immediately being

a little too personal or a little too close for comfort.

But I'm curious, do you think that

because I critiqued it, that I was saying that it shouldn't be allowed to exist?

Honestly, yes and no.

Because, I mean, I'm sure you've seen the show and enjoyed some parts of it at least.

I have.

I am still...

I like the office.

Yeah, so you do both.

Yeah.

Right.

No, it's something that I have enjoyed a lot.

It was something that, you know, my dad was the one to introduce The Office to me, and it was a great bonding thing for us.

Yeah, my mom introduced it to me.

I mean, she brought this weird show home one day from the library.

This was before the days of Netflix.

And I was kind of looking at the office.

This is weird.

Not really what I'm into.

And I put it on and I couldn't, I could have put it down.

I couldn't put it down.

Yeah.

It's just, you want to know what happens next.

Yeah.

No, I feel like my dad, when it was first on, he had heard about the British version of The Office and then was super excited when this was coming on.

And my dad and I were already big Steve Carell fans from when he was on The Daily Show.

And so, you know, we always watched this together and really enjoyed it.

So part of, you know, and maybe I didn't do this well enough in my piece, but I...

I was very disappointed to find myself feeling this way because I didn't want to feel anything but complete, unobstructed love for the office.

And then I found that a lot of my feelings were

a little more complicated.

And I wanted to express that.

But also that, you know, I don't think that keeps me from appreciating it.

I think it's always worth it to look at the art and the things that we love and think about

why we love them.

And do we love them in spite of something?

Do we love them because of something?

So as someone who was a decade younger when I first started watching it, realizing the ways I've changed and realizing the ways that I now react to the show differently than I did a decade ago.

So Tom, now hearing why Jaya wrote this,

I want to kind of bring up a point you made in your tweet, which is the idea of political correctness.

The idea of political correctness.

So Tom, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think it's fair to say you're not a fan.

That's fair to say.

Okay.

No, I'm not a fan of political correctness.

What do you think the problem with political correctness is?

Oh, my God.

It's too much.

I know I'm supposed to word that a little bit better and fancier, but I think people sometimes forget that we have a First Amendment, and it really does let you say or think whatever you want.

And just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make them or you wrong.

I personally am not offended by a lot of shit.

Like, if I don't know,

if I was of a different race and you called me a racial slur, it might bother me a little bit.

But at the end of the day,

you saying that to me

shows me that that

what you're saying is a reflection about how you feel about yourself.

So

I just try to live my life.

And I guess that collides with other people's lives, i.e.

this phone conversation that we're having right now.

So Tom, you brought up the First Amendment.

I did.

And it's funny, you know, the way I kind of see this podcast is I feel like

this podcast is like the continuation of the First Amendment.

It's like, yes, you are free to say whatever you want.

Yeah.

But here is how you can listen to someone who was affected by it.

You know what I mean?

So these are like the footnotes of the First Amendment.

These are the footnotes of the First Amendment.

I fuck with that.

I always think, you know, because I agree.

I think there's a lot about the First Amendment that people forget, you know, yeah, you're allowed to say whatever you want and people are allowed to criticize you for it or disagree with you or whatever.

But I always wonder that it's like, yes, you can say whatever you want, but why are you then choosing to say that specific thing?

Yeah.

And I'm also a writer, so I think about that a lot.

Yeah.

Understandably so.

Yeah.

So, so Tom, I think the best way to put it is that I, it's like, it's not just the footnotes to the First Amendment.

It's like the First Amendment, God bless it, it exists, and this is what comes after, you know?

Yes, yes, the aftermath.

The aftermath of the First Amendment, right?

A lot of the article was about how the office makes light of workplace abuse.

Yes.

Tom, have you experienced workplace abuse?

I'm a former Marine and I don't think I've ever worked anywhere around a female ever in my life.

Jaya, have you experienced workplace abuse?

I have.

And I think, you know, Tom, it sounds like the places we've worked have been relatively different.

You know, I definitely have worked around a lot of women,

But I think

a lot of the abuse I've gotten has never been anything so outright as to have,

you know, someone

physically attack me or assault me.

Nobody.

I'm happy about it.

Thank you.

No one, you know, explicitly refusing me promotions or opportunities because of my gender or my race.

None of that.

But there certainly has been

comments about my body because I'm a woman,

comments about

my race and my background that I'm pretty sure a white person wouldn't have gotten.

And nothing so serious as to completely derail my career or even derail my day, but just stuff that over time

piles up and I notice more and I notice that other people don't experience or get the same way and I do and that I noticed when other people get it worse than I do

so I think it's more just been something that

because of my experiences I have been made aware of a lot more yeah well that would make perfect sense I mean I think uh people really are a product of their environment yeah

I have seen a little bit of it I guess but not probably not nearly to the extent that you have.

Tom, you mentioned to me that 2018 is New Year, New You.

So talk us through why you're in that position.

Damn, we got deep.

I don't know.

I guess I've been seeing things through a different eye as of late.

A lot of the guys that I work with are African American.

I'm actually the only Caucasian man in the office.

So I learned a lot of cool stuff.

Started, you know,

looking more and more into like why,

you know,

people of the, of the, of, that are black people in particular are having, you know, they're so upset now because of the way things are going in this country.

Like, I'm starting to understand it a little bit more.

I used to just write it off as like, oh, well, you know, damn, they're just upset over nothing, I guess, but now it's it's not over nothing, you know?

And that just goes back to being more open-minded.

This is interesting.

If I can be so bold as to kind of identify the theme of this conversation.

Ooh, shots fired, shots fired.

Shots fired, shots fired.

I think the theme is essentially like...

We are what we are exposed to.

Jaya, you were talking about the comedy you were exposed to and how it influenced who you are as a person, who you are as a writer.

Tom, you were talking about what kind of things you were exposed to, how you changed when you started working with mostly black people.

So, given that,

this question is for both of you.

Tom, I'd love to hear you first, but this all started because of the office.

Now that you've talked to Jaya, do you see the office differently at all?

Or can you understand why someone might not see it the way you see it?

I still got to work on on that whole aspect of

myself.

That's okay.

That's okay.

I'm what a lot of people would describe as a hard ass.

A hard ass?

Okay.

I'm not going to stop thinking about it in the way I do, but

I can definitely appreciate where you're coming from because

I didn't even think about, you know,

not being

exposed to a workplace like that ever

the first thing that popped into my mind was damn she better not be disrespected my office

you know what I'm saying like

so

that

I I guess I didn't really I don't know I didn't really put myself in your shoes And you having those experiences and seeing them firsthand, I mean, that's alien to me, you know?

And I can definitely appreciate where you're coming from on the article.

And I'm sure a lot of people that have been exposed to that type of, you know, negative behavior in the office, I'm sure they'll appreciate it too.

Now, Jaya, that you've had this conversation with Tom, is there anything

you see or think about slightly differently?

Well, Tom, thank you for

also being so open-minded about this.

I feel sort of the same way.

I think that

for anyone, it's very easy to get

caught up in your own environment.

If we're talking about being a product of our environments, most of our environments consist of a lot of people

who think like us, look like us, have our same values.

And even if we make a really big effort to try to

expand our worldview beyond that, you know, it's really, it's really hard.

And sometimes you lose track of being able to do that.

And I feel like for myself, it's a constant reminder

not to get stuck in the bubble that I'm in.

And so I feel like this has been really great because Tom, obviously you and I come from pretty different backgrounds.

But it's been a while since I think I've been able to have a conversation.

with somebody who comes from such a different place than me and the fact that and I get nervous about it it sometimes but I think the fact that this has gone really well and we hear each other and we understand each other like that's just it just feels so valuable yeah I appreciate it too I mean when Dylan hit me up and said hey man you trying to back up what you said I was like hell yeah that's awesome that is what people should be doing you know that

it

I don't know I the First Amendment's a great thing use it to its maximum potential and that's what we're doing right now yeah Yeah.

That's what we're doing.

The aftermath.

The aftermath of the First Amendment.

And

to talk about the show that we're here to talk about.

Tom, what do you love about the office?

Jim.

Jim is the fucking man.

Jim.

Okay.

I mean,

yo, I'm not trying to get all Hallmark.

I'm not really good at all that, but if I was a lady, I want me a Jim.

You know what I'm saying?

Like,

he's just, man, I don't know.

He pays attention, which,

you know, I love.

Yeah.

And I don't know, man, dude,

this might be shots fired, but man,

if I was gay, I'd probably go for a gym.

You'd probably, you'd go for a gym at the beginning.

He's attractive.

Yeah.

I get that.

John present.

Hell yeah.

And he can ball, too.

I mean,

you know?

Yeah.

So, Jaya, what do you love about the office?

God, well, I think that

it's ridiculous just to say it's funny.

That's like, I, you know, that's such a subjective thing.

But I think that at its best, it really just,

you know, brought up all these little everyday things that you don't realize how ridiculous they are.

And then once you see it in the office, you realize how funny and ridiculous they are.

And I think that's what initially made me love it so so much is seeing these things that you would normally think is very mundane or very just annoying and

just like the deep absurdity of them.

Yeah.

I love that about it.

Do you think you're allowed to critique something that you love?

Yeah, absolutely.

I critique things I love all the time.

Okay.

Oh, great.

I mean,

I don't think you would critique something

if you don't at least have some sort of connection to it, whether it be good or bad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jaya, do you think you can critique something that you love?

Yeah, absolutely.

And you know, I think that was actually a conclusion that it took me a long time to realize.

I think

I,

for a long time, was very

uncomfortable whenever somebody came after something that I loved because I didn't want to have to

I didn't want to have to justify my love for something against someone else's critiques.

But I think similarly, I learned that,

right?

You know,

if something, if you're going to care about something,

it's your responsibility to think about it and know everything about it and know what other people think about it.

And just because I love something and someone else doesn't, or someone else is obsessed with something that I don't understand, doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that or appreciate that or,

you know, learn about why they love it the way they do and why that's different for me.

I think that,

yeah, I think that's important for all art.

I know we're closing this out, but Tom, since it's what brought us here, I have to ask: do you think Jaya should be burned at the stake?

I,

as an enterprise or person, do not endorse the burning of anyone at the stake.

I can say that it's highly, highly illegal.

It has been illegal for about 300 years.

So I meant that as

like a witch reference he.

I get it.

Yeah, so yeah, yeah.

Or Joan of Arc, whoever you bugged with.

Joan.

But no, no, you shouldn't be burnt at the stake.

You're a lovely woman.

You're awesome.

Thank you.

And actually, I wanted to ask like a

sub-question.

Please.

Do you guys like sushi, both of you?

Yeah, yeah, sushi.

Next time I'm in New York, I'm gonna hit you up, Dylan.

Yes.

See if you want to get some sushi.

I would.

And we better all get together.

I would love that.

I would love that.

Okay, so we're gonna get sushi.

Hell yeah.

That sounds great.

All right.

Well, this has been wonderful.

I just have to ask, it's the title of the show.

I'm 100% sure I know the answer.

But this show is called Conversations with People Who Hate Me.

Jaya, do you hate Tom?

Not at all.

And Tom, do you hate Jaya?

Nah, I fuck with you.

I was like, that was way too cool.

Yeah, I was like, oh, God.

Jeez,

we're getting it.

I wanted to keep you guys in suspense.

I know.

We felt in suspense.

So, Tom, thank you so much.

Jaya, thank you so much.

And

thank you.

I guess I will see you both on the internet.

Yeah.

All right, guys.

Be safe.

Bye, Tom.

See ya.

Bye.

If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.

Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents.

Vincent Cascion is the sound engineer and mixer.

Christy Gressman is the executive producer.

The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals.

The logo was designed by Rob Wilson, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marin.

Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moeller, and our publicist, Megan Larson.

We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.

Until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen.

but we're gonna make it through these dark times.

Make it through these dark times.

Make it through these dark times.

You can listen to more episodes of Conversations with People Who Hate Me in your favorite podcast app or by visiting Conversations with People Who HateMe.com.

Thanks for joining us on this hiatus celebration.

Tune in next week for part two of the Summer of Night Vale Presents, featuring Justin McElroy reading a dirty story about Tide Pods and some music we found in someone's attic.

To learn more about us and to see all of our shows, check out nightvalepresents.com.

And hey, have a great summer.

Hi, we're Meg Bashwiner.

And Joseph Fink.

Of Welcome to Night Vale.

And on our new show, The Best Worst, we explore the golden age of television.

To do that, we're we're watching the IMDb viewer-rated best and worst episodes of classic TV shows: the episode of Star Trek, where Beverly Crusher has sex with a ghost, the episode of The X-Files, where Scully gets attacked by a vicious house cat, and also the really good episodes, too.

What can we learn from the best and worst of great television?

Like, for example, is it really a bad episode, or do people just hate women?

The best worst, available wherever you get your podcasts.