Episode 1668 - Bowen Yang

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Lock the gate!

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, next?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF.

Welcome to it.

So what's going on?

I got Bo and Yang on the show today.

What a treat that was.

We've been trying to get this talk together for a while.

You know him.

He's a cast member on Saturday Night Live.

He's also been in Wicked, Bros, and Dick's The Musical, which was a fucking crass, beautiful piece of work.

He's nominated at the Emmys this year for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series.

And it was just a

very, a very classic kind of episode, classic kind of engagement and talk that is what makes this show compelling to me for all these years, and I'm sure compelling to you.

I know that a lot of the stuff I've been talking about out there in the world, and a lot of the clips from my special have kind of taken off.

And between us, I mean, me and you, my audience, I've been talking about this shit for over a decade.

And I kind of keep it here with us.

And

making the rounds at podcasts, it's just, I don't know why,

you know, I feel you get to a certain age where zero fucks are given, but also it's like someone's got to fucking say something.

And the truth is, like, I don't know.

that I see myself as a courageous person because it's, it's hard to, to put yourself out there like that

and and then sort of see what happens.

It's scary and it's a little overwhelming, but it's not some sort of act of courage in my mind.

It's just, I'm just a kind of person that has to speak their mind because I live in it.

I live in my mind.

I live in the world and my mind processes that and then I have to talk about it

somewhere with different degrees of aggravation, but certainly in the climate we're in now, I just couldn't help myself.

And a lot of times I don't necessarily say exactly what I mean because I just don't want to shoulder the burden of that.

But I always get to a point in most situations where I'm going to unload.

And if it's not personal or based in spite, then I have to accept it as the way I see things, as a judgment or a piece of criticism or just what I believe.

And what gives me the right to do that?

Me.

Me.

Who am I to judge?

Me.

I mean, who else is there?

How diplomatic do you have to fucking be?

You know, because you're in the same business or you don't want to hurt someone's feelings, yada, yada.

And eventually, if it's the right day and I'm sitting behind a mic and it's not mine and, you know, I'm going to pop off.

I'm going to pop off.

But it's not going to be unconsidered.

And, you know, the pushback from people that

do not like your point of view, the pushback from, there's a lot of these debate points that, you know, right-wing zombies and reactors use.

You know, they use, well, listen to this old guy, cranky old guy, listen to the bitter guy, listen to the cuck.

The idea that guys in their 20s who have zero game and can count the number of times they've been laid on one hand or the hand in their mind or they only fuck that hand calling me a cuck in its basic definition is fucking hilarious no game just guys out there trolling around looking for their fascist fuck doll

with a mouth that looks like it's been hit and covered with gloss

and uh you know some sort of blonde spectrum hair.

The dream girl who doesn't talk.

They fantasize about it all the the time, but usually, again, it's that hand.

If you don't have a count, you got the hand.

But nonetheless, I don't want to drift on that.

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And look, I know

my problems are not necessarily that interesting or even that bad.

Okay, I get that.

And I get a lot of

issues are my own and reactions to things.

I get all of that.

I mean, I just talked, talked to an old buddy I hadn't seen in about a year.

Had a massive heart attack, my age.

And just sitting with him and talking through, you know, that journey of getting to the hospital in the nick of time and getting the stent put in.

I mean, that's.

That's real fucking scary, real fucking hard stuff, life

at this age.

I talked to another buddy of mine I hadn't seen a year, had a complete manic break, ended up institutionalized, diagnosed bipolar, got out, trying to level off on some medicine so he can function, and he's doing it.

And oddly, with that guy, I'm like, why isn't this guy texting me back?

Why is he fucking, you know, avoiding me or whatever?

And then you find out like, oh my God, dude.

Well, I'm glad you're all right.

That's life.

You got to sit down with your friends occasionally, especially the ones you haven't talked to in a while, and you're sitting there thinking they're an asshole for not getting back to you.

Who the hell knows what they're going through?

These two guys I hadn't talked to in a long time.

I started thinking about them, and then out of nowhere, one of them texted me.

I'm like, that must be okismet, coincidence, mystical, God's hand, whatever you want to say, however you want to frame it.

That guy was in trouble.

He's okay.

They're both okay.

And it gets me into the present.

And I had 26 years sober on Saturday.

Jesus,

being grateful for what you have is a big deal.

Being humble and trying to be human, as hard as that can be, to be a decent human, especially when you're a flawed motherfucker, hard.

And God knows I've had my struggles, and God knows I've made mistakes.

And God knows that

ultimately I try to show up and do the right thing as best I can in the shadow of my codependency and my alcoholism and addiction.

But, you know, I have a path that

I can walk with that.

And I've been walking it for better or worse, sometimes all in, sometimes not in at all, but aware for 26 years.

I know that sounds daunting.

But on some level, at this age, the years are going by more quickly.

and all of a sudden you're at another benchmark, another year of sobriety.

And I guess I do want to say,

because

I field a lot of emails and I talk to a lot of people, and I've talked about it here candidly,

that

the idea of being sober,

if you

have the bug

or you just can't see it

because you do not believe life would be fulfilling or interesting or exciting without whatever you do, whatever you lean on, whatever you can't stop.

I will tell you from my experience, that's a lie.

Actually, things get even crazier once you get sober for a good few years.

You know, you'll know a crazy you don't even have any experience with.

And that's the craziness of you arriving at you and then trying to

get that into shape.

Who are you as a human

when you're not kind of annihilating your possibilities in that department?

And look, I did it the way I did it.

And I got it.

It was fits and starts for years with program.

And eventually I locked in and I locked in hard and I rewired my brain.

I let that program brainwash me

because as I've heard before, my brain needed washing.

I needed a template that I could work within that would make me a less selfish, less fucked up person that could take responsibility for his actions and not annihilate himself with substances or alcohol.

It's all up to you.

But I just want to say without

getting too much into it and not acting as a a representative of the program, however you do it, do it.

But just know that if you do it without support, you're going to go crazy.

And you'll probably, the way that brain works, it's going to lead you right back to where you left off.

And that can happen with the support.

But if you're going to let yourself go crazy because you're experiencing life for the first time with some clarity, and sobriety, and you're not just jumping on some other bandwagon to fill that void.

Bandwagon could be anything that doesn't destroy your life or things that do, you know, a person.

I guess I just want to express that

it's not necessarily easy to live life sober, but it is

better because you're in life.

And then you just have to reckon with your heart and mind and spirit, I guess, on some level.

But I will say that it's worth it.

And I will say that anything I have today,

including who I am, but any success or any

capacity to step up and do the work of life and of

art,

I can do

because somehow or another I hit a point where I needed help and I got it.

And I stayed in it.

And no matter how hard things have gotten during that 25 years, divorces, deaths,

bankruptcy, I didn't drink, didn't use drugs, went crazy,

used a lot of other things to try to keep my sanity.

To, you know,

little success usually, but you know, relief is relief.

But look,

it's doable and it's worth because what you gain is who you really are.

So that's my gratitude pitch.

That's my service pitch.

And that's my sharing

the hope.

Because you will lose the obsession

to destroy yourself.

in a fairly short time.

And then you just have to live with that squirminess.

But it's worth it.

Even if I don't sound sober half the time, even if I don't, in terms of not being drunk, but being a little brittle, a little dry, a little angry.

Well, you know, look, I choose to hold on to the character defects that define my personality if they're not too dangerous.

And, you know, you can do it your way.

You know,

whatever you got going.

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So I did this interview with Bowen in my hotel room in New York City a week or so ago, and it really unfolded into a beautiful thing.

He's nominated for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a a Comedy Series at this year's Emmy Awards.

And this is us

having a sit-down.

Well, whatever I said this morning that resonated with you was after two weeks of profound debilitating anxiety.

After this Albuquerque trip?

Or no, just

the world.

It happened in Albuquerque.

Yeah, yeah.

But to this point where I couldn't compartmentalize anything and everything was coming in at the same intensity.

Right.

And

I think a good chunk of it had to do with accepting, all right, dude,

you're doing good.

But

it's also coinciding with

this sunsetting.

So that is also crazy.

Yeah,

I can't really separate it all.

And it just all happens at once.

How do you handle it?

Are you anxious?

I was on Welbutrin.

Oh, yeah.

How did that go?

Not well.

What did it do to you?

I was taking it while we were shooting Wicked.

And what that was, and this is well documented,

was I was flying out of

well-documented problem crisis.

I was flying Sunday morning, first flight out of JFK on Sundays after an SNL.

Right.

So you're wasted.

I was, no, I was quite, I was, I was well-behaved.

No, but I mean, were you tired?

Just tired.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I would, I would fly back and forth from London to New York,

you know, Sunday to Tuesday, basically.

And, or Sunday to Wednesday.

I'd have two days of shooting in London, and then I would fly back and do the show.

And, you know,

like seven hours?

seven hours each way i thought i could hack it yeah with like neotropics and like red bull or celsius or whatever i thought i could chemically get ahead of it right right and just cut it and

full breakdown by how'd that manifest

um just waking up and feeling like i didn't know who i was where i was why i was there like why yeah you know like yeah and so then and then i and then i think i had to like i i like linked it back to the bulbutrin and i was like okay it's not anxiety it's but it exists that is like a thrum but i think that the main thing was depression and so then we switched to um luxapro how's that working love i love it really and i'm on the lowest dose and i've i actually know i had to i was i had to split the lowest dose and i was only taking half pills and now i've bumped it up to just one cute little yeah capsule and and it uh it didn't mute anything i don't think so

there was no adjustment There was an adjustment.

Oh, no, no, there was a huge adjustment.

Those first two weeks where those are no fucking joke.

And I, I don't understand how people, how anyone surmounts that and they stick with it.

The two weeks.

The two weeks.

What did it do?

I'm asking for a friend.

Really?

Okay.

I was so tired, just languorous.

I like...

This is my thing.

I use a lot of SAT words.

I'm so sorry.

This is a product of like

my parents getting me on it like when I was like 12.

Yeah.

They're like, you're going to start studying for the SATs now.

Yeah, we want you ready by 14.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But yeah, I was so

tired.

And then, and then I think like through the morass, you come out the other side and you're like, oh, I feel great.

Really?

Just so one day you're like, okay.

Yeah.

Kind of.

I think you'd love it.

But

haven't I heard you talk about Prozac though?

Well, that was for my cat.

God, although, yeah, that was the cat.

And I hadn't done it in a long time, but like,

I still believe that through radical self-acceptance

that I can find,

which it seems like you've arrived at.

I'm close.

Yeah.

But it's fleeting.

You know, like I have four days of it in New York because I'm getting a lot of attention.

Yeah.

But when I get home, I'm like,

Mark.

What?

Oh, I was, I was texting Sarah Sherman and Adie Bryant.

before this yesterday and the days leading up to this

i was just like i'm so excited to do this and your episodes are so great with him and isn't he the best and they were like he's the best And

just

lots of feelings of love and joy and warmth towards you.

And so we're there as a resource for you.

If you ever need,

thank you.

If off the press schedule, you want validation,

we will be, you can avail yourself.

Yeah.

Well,

that's one thing I realized too about,

you know.

guys who or just people who operate at the level you're operating at within show business.

I think that whatever

my

anxiety or whatever I experienced, I think it's some sort of self-protection of me getting there.

Yeah.

That because like there was, it's clearly no way, it's taken me a long time to frame that, like even the SNL experience or whatever.

It's like I wasn't ready for that.

I mean, if you're not ready for something and you get an opportunity, you're just going to break apart.

I don't know that I'm ever, I don't, I've never thought I'm ready for anything.

Okay, so how's it the entry into it?

Crazy.

Right.

Crazy.

Right.

I mean, like me getting SNL,

at least getting moved to cast from the writers,

from the writing job was, I think, I think the craziest experience I've ever had.

Yeah.

And just

probably traumatizing.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think it sounds like what you're arriving at, though, this week doing Seth last night

is like,

you were talking about this.

It's like, oh, I've been in that room.

Yeah.

sure from like like you're like i've been in that room so many times in my life but also not the the the the panic of overthinking it yeah like i've gotta you know this has gotta what if this doesn't you know i know and i wasn't and can i tell you

i i was not overthinking this even though i was telling i was telling sarah i was like i don't think i've ever been more nervous for something come on no oh stop what are you talking about i i this is this is i'm and you're you're good at deflecting this kind of thing but like i think this is it's it's it's so cool yeah it's it's funny because I always assume I'm more nervous than the guest.

Interesting.

Really?

Well, yeah, but I, I feel like

we're peers, you know, but like if I'm sitting across from, uh, if, if certain guests don't disarm me,

along with me disarming them, yeah, it's like, you know, you're sitting across from Jessica Chastain,

and I'm like, oh, my God, what it looks at her, what am I going to do?

Right.

So there, it's, I got, I'm not, it's not debilitating, or I think I can't do it, but I'm like, all right, is this a person?

Yeah.

Well, I well, like, but and yet, where does your ability to disarm come from if you're like,

like, how is that?

I don't know.

How do you, I don't know how you square that with like your own.

I approach them as a person.

Okay, great.

Unless I'm overwhelmed with fanness.

Yeah.

And that's only happened a couple of times and you can hear it.

Yeah.

I'm just sort of like, oh my God, so you're, you know, like, uh-huh.

Like Anne Hathaway?

What are you fucking kidding me?

Yeah.

Oh, but I, I think the way that you and I were introduced was actually quite nice and organic and

lovely.

It It was like it was Lily, it was Lily Gladstone being like, we were all in Vancouver.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she had just, I think she had just hung out with you or something.

Yeah, something there.

She said you were doing a movie with her.

With her, and she was like, you know, like Bo and Mark.

Yeah.

Like, okay.

Yeah.

Um, and I feel like that was that's the perfect kind of landing for me as a fan.

Yeah.

So that you can receive me in a way that is not like a little bit like shields up, like, oh, who is this guy?

No, I know who you are.

Isn't Lily great?

The best.

I mean, she, so her, her and I,

our thing is that we are, we are star siblings.

Because

the craziest thing that I've ever heard from someone in terms of like a cosmic sort of like spiritual connection is that she was like, no, you're my, you're my star sibling.

You're my star brother.

I was like, what does that mean?

And she was like, my mother

was pregnant with a son named August before me and

did not come to term.

And so, you know, was this, it was this thing that she mourned her whole life.

And then

one day years later, she sees you on SNL and we're watching SNL together.

Yeah.

And she goes,

that's him.

She goes, that's August.

That's, that's, like, Lily, that's your brother.

What?

And that was like, that was the first thing.

That was the first thing Lily told me.

Oh, my God.

Betty Gladstone.

Yeah.

What a, what a fucking legend.

But yeah, but like, but like, no, Lily, Lily has that energy of like, she'll tell you something profoundly piercing in that way where you're like, well, I love, like, and well, we're connected for life.

You know, like, she has that effect on people.

She brings in a fully mystical element.

Yes.

That, you know, is not refutable.

No.

Because it just is.

Yes.

No.

Yeah.

It just is.

You don't question it.

There's no, like, there's a reason why

she's had the career she's had.

Yeah.

Even before Killers, it's like, God, she's a fucking

legend.

Yeah, I worked with her in that movie I did.

We'll see what happens with that, but she was great.

She's just like, what a, what a, like an intense and you know, profound presence.

But like, that doesn't belie her own like sense of levity.

Like, she's still, she's still funny.

And she's like.

Yeah.

So I just talked to Nora.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I haven't heard that.

I haven't heard the whole episode yet because it's coming out.

It's interesting that

over the years, the experience of asian children of immigrants

that they're like it rarely takes a different path i know

but hers hers was easier than most right well wally wally's great her what her dad oh you know him yeah well i've i've only well i've met him only a handful of times but like like on her on the show that we did on north from queens like semi-autobiographical like i i i I see her father and her family through BD Wong's portrayal of him.

Yeah.

Anyway, but he's no, no, but like, she seemed like he was really kind of integrated and kind of liked weird, interesting music.

Yeah, yeah.

And like, he hung out at Barney's Beanery.

Yeah, he's like, he's, he's that kind of Asian.

Like, I didn't have that at all.

Where'd you grow up, though?

Oh, I grew up.

So I was born in Brisbane, and then we moved to.

Brisbane's like the worst part of Australia.

Oh, stop.

I mean,

it's like San Diego.

I guess, man.

But when I was like, when I went there and I did a few shows,

I had Brisbane, Melbourne, and Sydney.

The Brisbane gate people were like,

Why?

They were like, it's the most righty kind of conservative.

And you're not enjoying the beach there.

All I know is I got there and they had to move me to the smaller venue.

Oh.

Okay, Brisbane sucks.

Fuck Brisbane.

I don't know.

I have no emotional connection there.

Yeah.

We moved when I was six months.

As soon as I was cleared to fly, like my parents.

But how'd they end up in Australia?

My dad was getting his doctorate in mining explosives engineering.

Pretty specific.

Pretty specific.

Was that his passion growing up?

Yeah.

He loved that.

No, he, I know, he's just, he's just a nerdy guy.

And I think he...

How'd they get out?

What was that?

So they, so my parents were part of the first class

of Chinese youth

who were able to leave the country for like

advanced degrees after the Cultural Revolution.

So like 85 or so

some such.

He has memories and lived through the Cultural Revolution.

Yeah.

They both, I mean, yeah, but they both do.

Very different experiences.

My mom

grew up in this city called Shenyang, which is Liaoning,

Mukden.

It's also called Mukden.

A lot of Manchurian, like, like, there's some Manchurian lineage there.

My dad, meanwhile,

was in Inner Mongolia.

And we just went there.

I have no sense of any of that.

I was in Beijing once.

Nice.

To do shows.

I don't know.

And what was the size of the venue there?

It was small and weird.

It was for expatriates.

It was a show.

Sure, sure.

And they had just,

that spy plane had just crashed there.

Oh.

The American spy plane.

And we were told to stay away from that.

But like, I

don't talk about the plane.

Yeah.

Don't talk about it.

What were we going to say?

I don't know.

But

it was kind of like...

mind-blowing and odd.

Being there?

Yeah.

It's interesting.

For me, for an American, it was like another planet.

Of course.

I mean, what the fuck is happening here?

I know, I know.

And

like the, I became obsessed with the Hutongs.

Aren't they so cool?

Yeah.

I love the Hutongs.

Because it's the only thing that represents that in the dusty Forbidden City that they don't even seem to upkeep.

They don't upkeep.

And still, it's the most crowded place you've ever seen.

It's literally dusty and shit.

And they're just sort of like, we got to do it.

But they don't do it.

No, but they left it.

They left it.

They could have just plowed it over.

I think they put more effort into like re-embalming Mao's body like a block away.

Yeah, embalm the Forbidden City.

Embalm the Forbidden City.

Yeah, do something.

So when I was there, I felt like the Hutongs were some sort of honest representation of how people live, sadly, at least in that city.

Well, I think it's an honest representation of the way people lived.

Yeah, like probably before Mao.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, how did your dad live?

So my dad grew up in this mud and straw hut.

Come on.

In the grasslands, in the fields.

But actually, it was like arid.

And so they were like the family was like subsistence farmers and what does that entail just like just you you grow what you can like canola flowers and potatoes if it if the weather lets it and you've got they they you they told you this whole history they told me the whole history and we so when i was my first trip there was when i was when i was three i don't really remember it but that was when my when his parents were still living in this house in the in the mud and straw house in the mud and straw house and this was like their last year there because my mom's side of the family had like worked it out through like all this like they like cut through all the bureaucratic nonsense of like because it's a whole thing to move a family out of like provincial life in china yeah into the cities and like as they were developing and so there's just all this like licensure and whatever the fuck and so like that had to happen and my mom's side of the family helped with that and then you know we moved everyone from my dad's side of the family into the city and like i honestly don't know if that was necessarily the right thing to do for the grandparents for the grandparents for like my dad's side because culture shock culture shock and like they

i don't know like they were okay there in retrospect it seemed like they were kind of happy yeah and i think i think my i think my mom would agree but like everyone's fine now there's no like yeah there's no real hardship yeah um everyone's great it's just this is all fresh because i came back sunday and and where were you you went to mongolia i went to inner mongolia it's misnomer because it's the province that is south of mongolia in china it's not technically in Mongolia.

I've been there.

I'd been.

I'd been.

Yeah.

But the last time I went was 2016,

and we still went to my dad's childhood home.

So we go back, and it's like it's about to collapse, but we go and it's cool.

Like he showed me, like this time he showed me this little closet he built through the wall.

It's like literally what that looks like over there.

Yeah.

Hornmarks Hotel.

And just amazing.

And there's other people living in it?

No, no, no one's living there.

It's a monument.

It's a monument

to me.

Yeah.

This is where Bowen's father lived.

This is where Bowen's father lived.

Yeah.

The little plaque hand carved.

Oh, that would be fun.

But we, so I posted, I posted pictures from there of me like standing in like a t-shirt and shorts.

Yeah.

I guess I, I, I took a certain stance.

Like, I don't know.

I, I looked like I.

I looked like, I just looked like I was of that place or something.

Yeah, yeah.

And I posted it to my Instagram because I like worked through a firewall.

And then Chinese social media picked it up.

And then all the comments were like,

not even expats.

It's like people in China who, and there's a contingent there.

And I even texted this to Lauren.

I was like, you'll be happy to know this.

There's a very spirited contingent of SNL fans who are Chinese and who love the show and whatever.

What did Lauren say?

Lauren said, hilarious, the power of YouTube.

Just pity.

But

I, so, so, so, yeah, like, so these pictures were posted, and then it kind of like proliferated through Chinese social media, and then all the comments were like, oh, my God, I had no idea his family was from here.

Um, and there were clips of me speaking Mandarin, and they were like, I had no idea if he could speak Mandarin.

And,

but

corollary to it was

I'd never come out to extended family.

I'd never came out to anybody in China.

And it's just, and it's just my parents and I and my sister who are outside.

And who are in the state?

And everyone in America.

And who knows?

And every, well, yeah, everyone in America knows.

I'm not worried about that.

But I was, but I like, I got a tutor in the months leading up to the trip just to be like, hey, my Chinese is fine.

I don't have the vocab to like explain to them like what I do.

Right.

Like what my work particulars are.

Like what my life is like.

And would that be allowed?

It's it's allowed.

It's just not, and it's not like a, it's just a cultural thing where it's like, oh, like, why would you be that?

You know?

Yeah.

Cause like coming out to my parents, like the thing that they kept saying, my dad kept saying was like, where I come from, this doesn't happen.

But what, what was the issue in the corollary to the.

Well, the corollary is that

I had never come out to anybody in the family.

Yeah.

And I got this tutor just in case.

This is just this last time you were there.

Yeah.

This is just like the last couple months.

So even in your history, you never came out.

You were found out.

So this is the found out part is like social media kind of, the Chinese social media kind of did it for me because all the comments were like, oh my god, look at how straight he looks.

Isn't that so funny?

And like they're referencing like sketches from SNL where like we've done like meta takes on it where like I'm actually a straight person and

the gay thing is an act.

And so like they like were referencing that and being like, oh my God, maybe he really is straight.

Ha ha ha.

And then over the week,

my cousins and my uncles were like, Bowen, like you're, you're really blowing up like on these apps.

And the comments are so entertaining.

Oh, they're wondering where you're from.

And like, they're, it's, it's just, wow, that must be so fun.

And like, it was just always unsaid.

Oh, so to that part of the family, the Chinese part of the living lives.

To the Chinese part of the family.

Who live in China?

Yeah.

Yes.

And they were like, we're seeing it on our, like, it's on our algorithms.

And, oh, it's so, this is so, this is so interesting.

And insane in it.

They didn't say anything.

But they had to have, but they're like, if they're reading through the, they're referencing the comments and half of the comments are, oh my God, look at him.

He's usually so fruity and look at him wearing like, you know, a nice button-down shirt or something.

Like, it's, it was, it was really interesting.

And then by the end of the trip, like, it just, it just, it didn't come up.

But the only thing I can clock from this time is that, um, you know, in all my prior visits, they would just ask you, like, starting from like the age of 14, they'd be like, when are you getting a girlfriend?

Do you have a girlfriend?

Like, when you're getting married.

And it, and, and they, and they, and no one.

None of that either.

None of that either.

So they know.

Right.

But but in in in light of the cultural sort of reaction to it, wouldn't that be a form of politeness and respect?

Oh, definitely.

I think I'm still not quite sure how I feel about it, but I am relieved that the conversation didn't have to happen because even with this tutor, like the week before the trip, she was like, okay, let's do some role playing.

I'm going to be, and she was very, she lives in China, but she's like very attuned to like Western culture and even gay culture.

Like she like, she gets it.

And so, and I really looked out with her, but she was like, we're going to role play.

I'm going to be your cousins, and we're going to be at this big banquet hall table with like, you know, all your relatives because this is just what

Chinese people do.

And you're going to stand up and say, I'm gay.

You're going to do like, what a feeling from Flash Dance.

She was like,

she was like.

And I'm just going to ask you questions that they would ask.

So the first thing they would ask you is like, how much money do you make?

Because that's what's important.

And I was like, okay, great.

I can do that.

And then a laundry list of things.

And then finally, she was like, okay.

And then I'm going to ask you like,

do you have a, do you have a girlfriend?

And then I was like, is that what I tell them?

And she goes, honestly, no.

And I was like, what do you mean?

She was like, I don't think you should tell them.

I was like, what do you mean?

Like, this whole, the whole point of this was so that I could like work up to telling them in Chinese, like, that this is who I am.

And this is how long I've known and whatever.

Yeah.

And she was like, how long did it take for your parents to come around?

And I was like, oh, like 10 years.

And she was like, exactly.

Like, you cannot expect them to catch up to that, like, catch up to all of this information.

To just

drop it on them and then expect a reaction that's going to be positive.

No, no way.

But it is sort of interesting that

you know they know.

And I would assume culturally there's plenty of gay people that they know and it's just unspoken.

Right.

And they're probably just hoping for the best.

Maybe that'll heal up.

Oh, interesting.

Right.

I don't know.

It feels to me that even a lot of straight parents who know,

that's the only way they can accept it, just by not talking.

By not talking about it.

As opposed to saying, like, what's wrong with you?

Right.

Get out of the house.

Just suck it up and maybe eventually learn how to open up or tolerate.

Yeah.

My only thing, and I'm not owed this.

I just thought this was like my one shot at like doing it in the first place because they're like, what are you doing?

Get out of the house.

I mean, my parents didn't kick me out, but they were like, this is crazy.

And where were you when that happened?

This was in Colorado.

Oh, yeah.

I was born in Brisbane.

Then we moved to Ontario and then Montreal.

So what's your citizenship?

Dual American-Canadian.

That's good.

Yeah.

What are you saying?

No, no, I'm like, I'm like, yeah.

Are you saying that?

Don't be jealous of me.

No, no, no.

I'm just like, I'm like, I'm just saying, like, I'm very,

I, I,

I'm, I'm, I'm good.

Like, I feel good about that.

Yeah.

But I'm just thinking about, like, the collective mood of, like, what it means to, like, have both.

And I'm lucky.

To have an exit strategy.

To have an exit strategy.

That is, you know, in paperwork.

Right.

You got to find the papers first.

Yeah.

Well, I used to do a bit about that, like, about applying for Canadian.

permanent residency status because you know i don't want to be the the the jew at the border without his papers

when it goes down you know i don't want to be standing there holding a stack of scripts that i wrote

There's an exchange rate for that.

Yeah, oh, sure.

So it didn't, you didn't come out.

You, you were.

I was like, I was found out, like,

my parents found out.

And then that, so like, that was not on my terms.

But at this point, your father's established, he's working, you know, he's, he's, he's living the immigrant life to his full potential.

Yes.

And he believes that, you know, like, if you do what I do, you can be a success.

Yes.

Like the

sort of crazy, insane

blemish on that dream is like, oh, having a gay son.

Like that is...

And there's some cultural significance to him being the eldest of his brothers and that the son of the eldest brother, even though.

You're the king?

Well, that I like have to.

There's this meaningful lineage.

that I have to sort of uphold.

Yeah.

As the son of the, like, I don't, I don't understand really how it works.

Like, like, it's all bullshit.

yeah i can say yeah as as a westernized person it's not tribal it's uh it's like uh yeah i don't know what it is it's not caste but it it it it's it's uh filial traditional you know kind of uh structures yes ancient structures yeah yeah hegemony yeah something um

uh i neither of us are

anthropologists anthropologists um

but so what happens so what happens um

well I mean, you know, it all worked out.

Yeah.

And part of it.

It's going to have to, because at some point you're like, it's got to work out.

It's going to work out even if it doesn't work out.

You got to live your life unless you're fragile and, you know, collapse into yourself and fucking disappear.

Which kind of happened.

It happened during this whole like crash out with the Belbutron.

Yeah.

But anyway, I...

Different reason.

Different reason.

But what does happen

when they find out?

Well,

dad's an engineer.

Mom used to be a doctor.

They are solutions-oriented people.

And so.

But they're also humanists.

Yeah.

Well, they were like, we found this guy,

this person in Colorado Springs,

and we're going to go there.

Colorado Springs, that's the heart of it.

That's the heart of it.

Focus on family.

Focus on the family at Megachurch Central.

And this was right after.

How gay was the guy that ran that place?

So he was was,

he was not super gay at first blush, but then he let something slip on the last session.

And it was really amazing.

And can I tell you, he was like, so this was like, it was only eight weeks and the ultimatum was like, I could either stay in state

and live with my parents in Denver for college, or because my sister was at NYU, they were like,

or if you go to conversion therapy and see this guy, you can live, you can go to NYU and live with your sister.

And these poor people didn't know that it's the gayest school in the country.

But I went, I acquiesced, and my dad and I would drive two hours each way to Colorado Springs.

And those drives were actually like really good bonding time for us.

Feel like men?

God, I don't know.

We just, well, he would like go to cast.

Was he being overcompensated?

No, my dad is.

I don't know what is masculine about my dad more than like, I don't know, like these like, these like, these, these notions of masculinity in any culture are so silly yeah don't you think yeah I I don't you know I don't I know that I don't you know abide or or instinctively represent most of them but I I can

you know I can there have been moments where I get it yeah

but it's a pretty broad spectrum of course unfortunately the dominant spectrum now is not not great it's not great yeah and I'll take my dad's

I'll take my dad's strain of that any day.

Yeah.

He's just like, he's just like.

But the weirdest thing about the far end of the spectrum, which is dominant culturally wise, is that they're so gay.

They're so gay.

I mean, I can't.

I mean, it's like the attention to this sort of like weird anal attention to their grooming.

And

yeah, but

when I see pictures of groups of like young Republican men, I'm like, oh, come on.

I know.

Let it go.

And the fact that these guys are trying to make themselves attractive to this, you know, this fictional woman that they think is going to imagine

or manifest as like these trad wives or whatever.

Right, right.

It's like, what are you going to do with that?

I mean, like the lack of game that you can just see in all of these guys is like profound.

I know.

Well, whatever.

And one thing about gay culture,

you don't have to have any game.

As long as you have

the parts that someone else likes, you're good.

You don't even have to have a dick.

It's

a lot more fun.

Yeah, I had a professor in college that

he was sort of obsessed with me.

And I kind of let that happen because I was so fascinated with gay culture at the time.

It was just,

it just seemed like, even though I wasn't gay, I'm like, they're really having a good time.

I think I used to do a bit about that.

I'd say like, I think most guys are gay if you just relax.

Oh.

You know, you

when when you hear sort of effeminate dudes talk like you know hi you know like you're like if you just let yourself do things like why wouldn't you do that all the time it's great it's so relieving you almost want to kind of cry and be happy all the time it's it's it's so double may care yeah it is yeah it is just let it go man just relax just relax and that's why i mean like like me like reading all these comments on tiny social media about like how like usually effeminate i am i was just kind of like i was getting a cake i was like yeah like it's it's it's, the water's warm.

Like, it's okay.

But it's weird.

Like, if I think about it, even just talking to you now, if I'm thinking out loud, it's not really effeminate.

It's just a different male on the spectrum of maleness.

Totally.

It's kind of, it's kind of weird because I've never seen women act like gay guys.

Right.

Really?

Like,

you don't see a woman going, she's kind of acting like a gay dude.

Wait, you should do a bit about this.

That's great.

But it's true.

What feminine qualities are they talking about?

Right.

Like, even

the amplification or the heightening in drag.

It's like they're not acting like women.

No, that is.

No, that is the thing that I want to explain to people.

It's like, it's not men pretending to be women.

It's men

doing this heightened, blown-out version.

It's like wrestling.

It's like pro-wrestling.

Totally.

It's just, we're pro-wrestling.

It's like, oh, it's a heightened version of masculinity.

Yeah.

It's the flipped version of that.

Well, I think that if there are people that say it's feminine, it's that it's because their perception of of what women should be is heightened.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's why they're so confused and aggravated with drag.

They're like, why do I feel this way?

Right.

Because she's being the kind of woman you want to meet.

Right.

Which isn't like a regular woman.

Which is, yeah, that's that.

That is the trad wife thing.

Yeah.

And, and like these, and like the incels are like,

I like, I, I, I cut in early and said, oh, but they want to meet this woman who's going to reject them anyways because that is kind of like the operational thing.

It's like, oh, they are working themselves up to be rejected to be turned down so then they can like internalize this like yeah rage at just all women you know yeah they're they're total uh

you know

bottoms

yes yes and

and i have to say i like i remember i think i think it was like your rupee paul episode yeah

where i was like i think that's one of my favorite episodes of anything it was mind-blowing i love that episode so much yeah i still think about it but But yeah, I think

my dad, even though he was really like

brandishing a masculinity that he allegedly

represented, I'm like, I don't see him as this like.

I don't know, this like paragon of manhood.

Sure.

Well, it was based in tradition, which that's the most interesting thing about it because, you know, a doctor and an engineer,

you know, you know, but I think there's two things working, working, right?

It's their concern for your life.

Yes.

And then the other thing is, like, you know, the role a man's supposed to play in their traditional point of view.

Right.

And

those override, you know, what I'm sure is, you know, a deep love.

Oh, 1000%.

And like, and in the time since, like, that is, we've all arrived at that.

Yeah.

And things are great.

I just think back to the China thing, back to like this recent trip.

It's like, I was talking about this today in therapy.

It's like, cause, cause what my tutor was also saying was she was like,

all they care about really is like if you're doing well and how much money you're making.

Yeah.

And which is, you know, that's not her opinion.

She's just like, that's the reality.

That's the cultural observation she's making.

And she was like, they won't care.

And I was like, okay, interesting.

And I can't help but kind of think,

is it a conditional thing?

Like, would they be, would they not be as receptive to, would they like be, would they not be as okay with me being gay if i weren't doing okay

does that make sense oh oh i see would they accept you yeah yeah if they if they could hang your lack of success on you being gay exactly and my and

i i i i don't want to i don't want to like i don't want to bro like breach that line sure but like

i think about that with my parents sometimes i'm like this would be so because because they kept saying we were just and like in our like unpacking of this yeah in recent years they were just like we're so sorry we did that.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course.

They were like, and I've talked about it enough

in interviews and stuff.

And it used to really be this red line.

I was like, I don't want to talk about it anymore.

But now I'm like, no, it seems like we've all really, if we've really moved past it, then it's fine.

But they were like, we're so sorry we did that.

We were truly just so worried that...

that your life was going to go in a certain direction and that you would have been like completely, I don't know, like just, just, just not okay.

Like your life was going to fall apart.

And I was like, okay, cool.

So.

And that's also a concern that I think

anybody have.

That's right.

Yeah.

Of course.

But they couldn't unlock that then.

They couldn't unlock that then.

And I can't help but wonder,

but this sounds so shitty as a child, but I'm like, I just have to, I have this thought experiment every now and then where I'm like, well, how, would it be, would that still be the same if

success hadn't come?

You know what I mean?

But you don't say that.

I don't say it.

Well, I'm saying it now on a microphone.

In a microphone.

No, but in a microphone, in a very, very,

on a podcast with a big audience.

Yeah.

But I don't think that's an offensive thought, but I do think it would imply that you hadn't done your side of the accepting.

Oh.

Right.

Wow, you're good.

You're really good.

Oh, Mark Maron.

Oh, cool.

That's, yeah, interesting.

Well, yeah, because in order for this all all to work, is you've got to let that go and,

you know,

feel the empathy for their situations.

Yes.

So if you were to say, like, well, what if

you're still looking to, you know,

it's not, yeah, you're right.

It's not like that.

Yeah, no, no.

I mean, but the thought, of course, can be there.

Yeah.

Yeah, but it does it serve any purpose.

It doesn't.

And I don't even know what purpose it serves.

I don't even know.

I guess I don't know where I'm at with the greater family like the

the concentric circles outside of like the

immediate nuclear family of my mom and my dad and my sister yeah are like okay cousins and uncles and then like

chinese nationals like people in china how did it end up i mean you were talking about that like when upon leaving upon leaving uh my brother-in-law and i were checking in and he was like how you doing how do you feel about this trip and are you excited to go back to new york and i was like i'm really excited he was like okay well your sister is

is sad to go and you know she's

these her coming back here always reminds her of when you guys would come as kids and how happy you guys were and

and seeing family is always very meaningful to her and touching her and I was like oh that I totally relate to that I I just think I associate those trips even even now I associate those trips with being in the closet right oh right because I because it was always it was like especially like once I was a teenager and when we would go back it was always about like

white lying and kind of covering.

And

I remember like my favorite cousin

when I was like 14, like I overheard him in another room going to my mom and my sister, like, Bowen kind of talks like a girl, doesn't he?

And it crushed me.

Yeah.

And then I was like, oh, well, then, like, like, the jig is up and it's, and like, it's, it's over.

And like, it's curtains for me.

And like, it's like, it's like, I can't uphold this sly anymore.

And even still.

So you have PTSD from.

Yeah.

And so like, I don't have the same sort of like

unabashed like joy

about going back there the way that my sister does, I guess.

Right.

And she was, and she had to like handle like three kids, like three toddlers.

She was stressed the fuck out.

And Yang, if you're listening, I love you.

I can't believe you, you, you managed that trip like that.

Yeah.

I thought you were, I thought you were miserable the whole time.

It turns out she loved it.

I, and it's not that I was miserable.

I was just like, I was,

I understood understood something about those trips in total of just like, oh, these were, these were, these became very stressful for me at a certain point.

And maybe it's, maybe the stress is gone now.

Like, like

the internet in China kind of did something for me.

Oh, good.

But also, maybe it didn't.

I don't know.

Well, I mean, that kind of stuff is hard, you know, in terms of like, I can barely go to the comedy seller because I struggled so hard there when I was younger.

That like, I just, it's just sort of like, it all comes back.

I mean, that's, that's that's the problem, I guess, with PTSD on some level is that, you know, it re-triggers it.

So, you know, you go to the place

and you regress.

Yes.

And you can feel that old you, you know, kind of taking hold and the feelings are real.

What are you going to do?

And then is

the inverse of that, like you going to...

like the Seth studio and being like, oh, like this is where.

Well, I mean, like, I go to the comedy store and I think my problem is that

I can't always see who I am in the world that I exist in or my skill set.

There's just something about like, well, it's like when you go, you know, haven't seen your parents in a long time and all of a sudden you're 12 again

and acting like that.

Yeah.

There's some that happens.

Interesting.

And I have to rise above that, you know, and just do a good set or whatever.

And you too.

And yeah, you do that.

Yeah.

But the question I think that we're both asking is like, is it necessary

to do that?

I think it might be.

I think if you're aware.

If you're aware, if you're like,

if you've done the work on yourself as a person,

it's not that you should or

could or won't or would.

It's like, dude, you just do it.

What's happened?

I think what's similar about it is that you were, you know, in that time.

And, you know, and just as a younger comic, too, you're not who you are yet.

I mean.

And that, and that's just part of, you know, if you were gifted with, you know, the support necessary from an early age to sort of own yourself and have the freedom to do that, good for you.

And go fuck yourself.

I can't, I don't know.

I've never met a single comedian who's who's like, uh, comes from, uh, you know, I think you've, you probably met more in sketch than you would in stand-up.

Oh, maybe.

Because

sketch is so collaborative that you kind of need to function with other people and have a little bit of an open heart to the experience.

Yeah.

Whereas with stand-up, it's just me and, you know, I'm well guarded and, you know, I'm here to shield myself and make and entertain you with that.

Oh, but that's, that sounds so, that sounds so, I don't know.

Well, it's just my point of view.

Yeah, well, no, yeah, it is.

To be up there with your sword and armor.

Yeah, why not?

I, I, I always am jealous of the stand-ups who

end up at SNL, who just have,

um, the ones that can work with other people.

The ones that can work with other people.

And then, like, Sarah's a perfect example of that.

I'm like, oh, you,

you've, like, you're good.

Like, you, you know how to work with other people, other people.

You know, she, I mean, she'll say that there was a learning curve, sure.

But, like, she's got that down.

I think what's great about her is that, you know, despite her journey into, you know, extreme self-expression, I think fundamentally she's like a, you know, a Jewish entertainer.

She is borscht belts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But she's like, but, and yet she's like, she's just, I think she's so many different intersections of things.

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of crazy.

She's Fran Dresher.

She's also like,

I don't know, Phyllis Diller.

She's Karen Finley.

Yeah.

She carries, like, she has.

She has it all in her.

I don't know.

Shiny person.

Shiny.

I'm obsessed with her.

Yeah, it's hard not to be.

Yeah, because there's just so much, like, she's getting away with something

and integrating

a type of creativity into mainstream entertainment that rarely happens.

It never happens.

Yeah.

And I'm just, I'm proud of her.

Yeah, me too.

So, wait, tell me about the trauma of conversion therapy, though.

Okay.

Because, like, I mean, you were self-aware enough, but you seem pretty grounded in yourself.

I imagine that you weren't only because you couldn't be honest about who you were, but it seems like the foundation of your emotional existence was pretty solid.

I don't know.

I still have this thing now where I'm like, oh,

is the mirror like

how many more, how many missing pieces are there?

Because it was shattered at a certain point.

Right.

And like, it's been like slow work to

put it back.

Yeah, I definitely get that.

And there's some pieces you're like, kind of glad that one's gone.

But I don't know what the pieces are.

I don't know what those, I don't know what the missing, I don't, I've not taken the full inventory.

How old are you?

34.

Oh, you got time.

Really?

I don't think so, Mark.

It has to happen now.

Yeah.

Or maybe it's like, it's like when your bone density starts to go.

It's like, I think it's irreversible.

Well, you mean you can never find the missing thing?

Yeah, maybe.

You just have to accept it.

You just have to accept it.

Oh, to answer your question,

how gay was the conversion therapist?

You know, he let it slip by the end.

Well, first, his first thing that he asked me was, do you want this to be

a secular experience or a Christ-centered experience?

And I was like, well, the fact that you're, it's like it's this, the most fucking insane illusion of choice bullshit I've ever heard in my life.

Well, and I well, if I say secular, I know you're going to come at it from like, like the back, like the back end programming of that is going to be God, Jesus, and everything else.

So I said secular, but I was like, the entire time it was like, you,

you're, you're a fucking kook.

Yeah.

Um,

well, like that is kind of funny because he was really just assessing, you know, what his angle was.

Exactly.

exactly um and they probably have it by rote they have it by rote because they're dealing with

with fundamentally lost people in a way yeah

that's so predatory and weird i mean i just i i feel for like i guess i'm lucky quote unquote that i was like 17.

i feel for the people who like are younger are older oh yeah well i mean and younger i guess i think i'm i was right in that goalilocks though people that have to hang up their chaps

you're talking about the younger people?

No, I um the people who have to hang up their chaps.

Yeah.

And there's this thing happening now, I guess, where like people are like,

it's like people who like, I don't know, it's people who like go back in the closet.

Well, I think that's fear.

And that, I think that in, in light of what we're going through culturally, that, you know, I always wonder about that, you know, especially with.

you know, the gay community that has, you know, had to sort of define themselves in a way that other communities really haven't through their sexuality and through their choices in order to maintain strength and identity and culture that I wonder how many people are just sort of like, well, it's just easier to shut up.

Yeah.

And not to go all like

pronatal, but I feel like the fact that queer people don't have something necessarily like intrinsically built in in terms of like an old, like connecting with like an older generation

means that it's just, it's just harder to like get the connective tissue.

well yeah because all those old stonewall guys are really old or dead yeah yeah and like everyone and like the people who died during aids yeah are dead obviously and like it's just it's hard to like as a gay person now yeah it's like you can't you have to seek it out like you you can't like no one there's no bro sure there's no like yeah i remember seeing a sketch at the aspen comedy festival it must have been

In the 90s, and it was the best thing I ever saw.

And I don't even know what happened to John Regie.

Do you know John Regi?

Yeah.

Is he around?

Isn't he like one of Tina's guys now?

Maybe that sounds right.

But he did a sketch

at the Asman Comedy Festival.

And the sketch was, it was this generational gay couple sketch.

You had this younger sort of, you know, doctors wearing khaki, you know, passing, you know, kind of new conservative-ish gay couple,

you know, maintaining appearances.

And they invite this older couple over to dinner and they show up, you know, full leather, you know, just, you know, kind of like dancing around.

And the culture clash between the two generations was hilarious and very specific.

And I think it's sort of what we're talking about.

Right.

But you're good with your parents.

Yeah.

And the trauma from the conversion therapy did not stick because you have a sense of humor.

Usually.

But you must have known two days in, you're like.

this isn't going to work.

I knew two days in, it wasn't going to work.

Although this, I mean, going to NYU,

I did go back in the closet for a year.

And it was just as like a, just as like a

little

an experiment.

And I was like, I'm gonna rein if I'm gonna if everyone reinvents themselves in college anyway yeah I think perfect place to do it New York City

so I tried not for that one

I genuinely had feelings for a girl like I think I'm at Kinsey four

the Kinsey scale is like zero to five yeah so I'm like I'm like yeah no yeah I could do it my voice tracks yeah yeah

I uh anyway it was it was one year of being back in the closet and then as soon as my sister moved out moved moved from New York City I like told everybody on the improv team.

I was like, I'm guy.

But

let's go.

I think like Rachel Bloom was one of like the first people I ever came out to.

Oh, she's the right one.

She's the right one.

But yeah, the conversion therapist, just like he like was telling, he was, he like went into this anecdote about one of his quote unquote

like past patients about like

his car breaking down in San Bernardino and he had to go into a Denny's and then the waiter was making eyes at him.

And then, in the middle of the story, this guy, my therapist, like switches pronouns from he to I

without realizing it, and he caught himself.

And I was like, that was about you.

You fucked that waiter.

And this happened.

And this was like allegedly like a couple of years ago.

So it's like, it's, he's, so that was like, that was the last session.

And then the session before that, my dad was like, can you give us like referrals for people who do this in New York?

He's about to go to school in New York.

And this guy's like, yeah, sure, I'll come.

I'll come back.

I have the waiter's number.

I have the waiter's number.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

But you're okay.

Yeah, I guess.

But do you, like, do you feel like, I mean, there is sort of this,

you know, it is, you know, kind of frightening, you know, culturally, but there is this.

I imagine the pressure, you know, once you reach, you know, some level of gay icon status status

is

maybe different now?

Do you feel about me?

Yeah.

Do you feel a responsibility?

Not really.

Oh, good.

I don't know.

Because I don't know how

these communities of people that are vulnerable to the type of

violence or persecution, just

on a cultural level, and you're two of them.

oh oh yeah interesting you know that you know i don't know if there's a conversation there you know i

yeah i just because you know i just know as a liberal person you know who speaks from that point of view

you know there is a nervousness to it yeah you're talking about you're talking about in terms of the way that you present yourself well just in terms of like you know

because they're so fucking loud and their big you know passion for freedom of speech just meant to be able to say, shut the fuck up with more confidence.

Or just a slur that they like.

Sure.

Yeah, it's all the same to diminish the voice of others

out of intolerance and fear that you can internalize that and just be like, you know, what do I need to fucking hassle for?

You know what I mean?

What do I...

I'll tell you what I internalize in terms of like

the way that I like am perceived.

Yeah.

I'm like, okay, so perfect, and perfect example with this whole Chinese social media thing.

They're like, oh, but he's gay.

And like on, by and large, we're like, ambivalent about that.

Yeah.

And then in terms of gay people, they're like, oh, but he's Asian.

And

there's no like,

there's no like, I don't know, like, there's no glorifying Asianness in the gay community necessarily.

So like either way.

You don't get the same fetishization that you get in the straight community.

Exactly.

Are you jealous?

Aren't you jealous of

my Asian figure?

Yeah, I don't know.

My lithe Asian-ness.

It doesn't play.

I mean, to some people, it does.

They're fetishists for everything.

Sure.

But I...

Yeah, maybe that's...

Like, it's so mutually

deleterious in a way that I'm like, okay,

I don't have to worry about this.

Yeah.

I really generally don't.

care.

Oh, good.

And I think people,

I think I'm like just the right amount of disliked

and just the right amount of like,

oh, well, we don't really care for him.

Like, we don't care about him or what he says.

Yeah, well, I mean,

I think that's good if you can, you know, hold that space in that, you know, the hate isn't so profound that, you know, it makes you, you know,

frightened or sad.

No.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

So you can just kind of do what you do.

And, you know, you got your space.

And, you know, all right.

Yeah.

I'm just going to be me finally.

Well, and we'll see.

We'll see what that's like.

It seems like we're both.

I think you are in this,

because this week is

so big.

Yeah.

I think

I appreciate that you're sort of imparting this on me.

Uh-huh.

I feel like that's kind of where you're at.

Yeah, yeah.

There is something happening.

I love it.

That has to do with a lot of things, you know, age being one of them.

But, you know, because you do get this point, it's like, dude, how long are you going to do this shit to yourself?

Uh-huh.

You know, like time's running out, buddy.

Yeah.

You know, you better just, you know, because it's all fear, right?

Really?

Right.

So, like, what are you afraid of?

And if you really track that stuff, it's like, well, when I was seven, you know,

all right, so now you're 61.

Uh-huh.

Maybe you can give that kid a break.

Totally.

You totally can.

Yeah.

I don't think you need the Lexapro.

Good.

I've been pushing back against that for long.

I'm on some other stuff that I don't think is working, but the doctor told me it probably wouldn't.

No, I'm on this Busporin for anxiety, okay, and which is a more specific kind of dopamine up reap type thing that's on a total SSRI.

And he literally said to me, He said, This usually doesn't work for people.

I'm like, That sounds like the perfect medicine.

So if I think it's working, then that's great.

And if it's not working, then you know, not so good, but whatever.

I'm familiar with that.

It's like a meta placebo.

That's awesome.

Yeah, it can be.

Exactly.

You could go either way.

Low efficacy.

Yeah,

yeah.

So, what?

So, how's it at SNL now?

Everything good?

I think so.

I mean,

I hope we're on the air.

Why wouldn't you be?

After this Colbert shut?

You're at NBC.

Yeah, you're right.

There's no, but like, if they decide to merge out of nowhere, I don't know.

Yeah, well, it could happen to anybody, I guess.

That's true.

But it does seem like, you know, it's in this current media landscape that

it doesn't seem like SNL has to make an effort to create a clip economy.

Like, it's the show's design for that.

Totally.

There's no, yeah, it doesn't have to change anything about itself.

But you know, I was, God, I was, I got dinner with

fantastic writer Will Steven.

Yeah.

And we were talking about this.

We were like, okay, like, what's what's the vibe going to be going back?

And

like,

when we were both just talking about, we were talking about James, Austin Johnson.

We were like, should he be worried at all?

Like, just all it takes is for Trump to say one thing, one thing about him.

Well, you just got to kind of get some fortitude.

Sure.

I just think that guy is

the most fucking talented.

He's one of the best to ever do it.

And he doesn't get that credit enough,

I think.

I think he should be able to spread his wings and do whatever he wants on that show.

But James is like, his story is fucking tremendous.

It's tremendous.

Christian entertainment.

He's so grounded in something

that is truly his that came out of struggle.

Yes.

Right?

Same with you.

Yeah.

I mean, when you got to really fight for your autonomy from

Colorado Springs, dogmatic restrictions,

it's, you know, when you finally win that fight, you're like, oh my God.

No.

It'd be the best.

He's just,

he can like, he's a gorgeous singer.

The Dylan thing is the best.

The Dylan thing is the best.

He's such a good actor, just on just like on a baseline level.

And the way he improvises within Trump, you know, on the

old videos he used to do, just walking.

It's crazy.

It's just so crazy.

Because you could tell it's like, it was just generating.

He's in the pocket.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So anyway, we were just like, we're just talking about him.

It's like, anyway, we're not, I don't want to like.

engender any sort of fear on anyone's behalf, but it's just like, I just think I'm interested to see what the show will be like.

Well, it seems like he's, you know, that this is weird when you have to talk about a president like this, that his form of micromanaging is being offended by, you know, comedians.

Yeah.

Right, right, right, right.

And you just don't know where it's going to land and for how long.

Of course.

But, you know, he had an accident grind with Alec Baldwin that preceded.

Yeah, you're, yeah, totally.

You know, SNL.

Like, that guy was always up his ass for whatever reason.

Of course.

And I think now it seems like he's not paying a lot of attention to SNL.

Right.

Because he doesn't.

Because he doesn't feel like he needs to.

And there's not someone there that he's like, you know, fuck that guy.

Totally.

But also, that scares me too.

Like, this South Park thing comes out, and everyone's like, yeah.

And, but, you know, he's not really even engaging with it.

But would it be better if he wasn't?

But I guess they kind of were in the beginning.

But yeah, are you saying like it would be more interesting if it wasn't?

Not more interesting.

It's just that like, you know, within an authoritarian system,

at some point, you know, even the ones that are more organized than his,

they have to allow some of that.

Yeah.

To keep, you know, to keep the left disillusioned.

Like if you shut down everything, then you have Mao.

Right.

You know, he's doing it very selectively, but he also knows that he's up against a lot more people and that he can't just go shooting everybody.

Just, well, not yet.

They're still at Mexicans.

Yeah, but eventually, but

I do think that culturally, in order for America to exist in the illusion that there is some sort of two-sidedness, that stuff

is tolerated.

That's interesting.

Like you have to keep

the illusion going.

You have to water the opposing plant.

That's right.

It's a terrible metaphor.

I don't know what that is.

But that's an articulation of control as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But

from what I understand about the Maoist revolution, I mean, that was, you know, you're going down, dude.

Everyone gets on board or you're going to go to the camp or you're going to get killed.

It's.

We're not there yet.

We're not there yet, but I, I mean, there was like,

there was like a ripple of that like that like went through my body like when we were just like

getting off the train station.

There's like a giant mouse.

I was like, okay, well like, is this, is this a, I don't know.

I just I thought that I thought like in the first Trump term that the the analog to that here is just his constant need for attention.

Right, right, right.

It's not

a sort of a mythological power.

Right.

But you couldn't get out from under him because every five minutes he's saying something and it's like on your phone.

Totally.

And it had the same impact as Stalin or Mao pictures everywhere.

It's just like, he's everywhere you look.

And you know what?

Mao kept the Hutongs.

You know what I mean?

He destroyed everything else.

But he kept the Hutongs intact.

Right, right, right.

He's nostalgic about the Hutongs.

Nostalgic about the Hutongs.

And like...

What is SNL if not an American

Hutong?

So wow, you're right.

Thank you for

assuming that.

Was that good or bad?

I loved it.

Oh, good.

Yeah.

I can't say, we'll see.

Time will tell you.

I don't know.

Yeah, we'll refer back to this.

But how do you manage your life now?

Not well.

I think.

Well, I mean,

compared to shooting Wicked, it's much better.

I mean, this past season was...

a lot, but it was very fun.

Yeah.

And how do you choose other projects?

I don't have like an like a decision-making apparatus.

I'm just like, oh, am I free?

Then great.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I'll just take what I can get.

Right.

But are you doing bigger parts?

Are you finding it challenging or you feel typecast or you're there to deliver that bow and magic?

You're driving SNL or just

talking about other movies and things.

I don't know.

I wouldn't mind.

I wouldn't mind just doing the thing that I've been doing.

I don't want to play like a sidekick anymore necessarily.

Right.

It's a lot of that stuff.

Yeah.

But I don't know.

I'm just, I'm just lucky.

Yeah.

I'm not one of those people who has to like constantly push it forward.

Yeah.

I think like I'm okay just kind of like parking it somewhere and just being like, this is

good.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, I've been parked for 16 years.

And isn't it great?

Yeah, it is.

But for me, like, I'm finding that like there are some things creatively that, you know, when you put, when you focus on the one thing and you're a creative person and then you become sort of good at that and proficient, you know, there are things in my life that I'm like, well, I, I want to continue to take risks to feel that, you know, to fulfill that other part of my, you know, desire to do something.

Yeah.

Like music or whatever.

I'm not saying I'm going to make records or anything, but there is, you know, there's still a rounding off of, I think, the, the, uh, the, the broad spectrum of my creativity that I'd like to do.

Like I'd like to figure out how to play characters, like you guys that are able to swip into characters.

But in what context?

Like a sketch show?

Or you just mean like for a second?

Yeah,

there are certain things that I'm too self-conscious to do.

One of them was singing and playing.

And you've done it?

Yeah, I've been doing it.

And the other is like, you know, immersing in like a wacky character.

That's fun.

I mean, but

to me, it's like, it's too, it's too scary because like the nervousness of occupying it and then not getting laughs, I don't know if I could handle it.

Because there's always part of me that's sort of like, hey, it's me, man.

I can do the other thing.

I can do me.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Because I didn't come up and sketch and never did that.

Was Glow your first big acting thing?

After Maron, yeah.

After Marin, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, sorry.

Yeah, of course.

Sorry.

Yeah, but that was me learning how to do it.

Right.

Yeah, Glow was.

But like, for me, a character just means like, well, this guy's not neurotic, so turn that off, you know, and

sort of occupy this other part.

Like, I do have

a pretty big menu of male actions.

It's great.

Yeah.

I think there's nothing wrong with it.

I think my menu of gay male actions is a nice buffet.

It's like

I'm happy at the buffet.

I don't have to go to another place.

That's just how I, I don't know.

Maybe, maybe that's like, maybe that's...

the totally wrong instinct to have and I should be wanting more for myself.

Yeah, no, but I mean, it'll, it'll come when you want it.

I mean, you don't have to want it now.

No, you're right.

And sometimes the opportunity will reveal itself and you'd be like, oh, that's scary.

Maybe I should do that.

That's great.

My only thing

about SNL, at least, is that I'm like, I can feel,

and this is not,

I don't want you to like push back on this necessarily or like this is not fishing for anything.

I'm just like, I can feel the audience getting sick of me.

I can feel things just kind of like turning.

You want me to push back on your cry for help?

Yeah.

Is that what this is?

Shit.

Oh, no.

I just, I can just tell.

I'm like, and like you, I used to be someone who was like always going for the laugh, always desperate for it.

And if it didn't happen, it was devastating.

And I feel like what the great thing that SNL has done for me is just, it's kind of inoculated me from wanting it all the time.

I did that in stand-up where like I intentionally learned how to sit in the silence because I don't think that I think that's impactful.

Yeah.

And that it doesn't mean it's not funny.

It just means it's landing in a different way.

Yeah.

Like the idea of constantly going for laughs is, and I did it in this special.

Like there's literally a section where after I lay out the politics with no hope in sight, I'm like, well, I can be entertaining.

I don't think that's why I got into this, but I can do it.

And I just laid into that.

And I'm really on this weird precipice of like, why don't you just be funny?

Be more funny.

Like, because I think I feel like I have a social responsibility to kind of go deep in myself and then also lay out my political positions.

But I know how to be funny, but it's actually more work.

It's so much more work.

It's so much more work.

And I haven't admitted that to anybody.

It's like it's easier to kind of be philosophical and provocative because you're not expecting the same kind of laughs.

And then when you don't get them, you're like, well, that's because it's, you know,

it's a little much for them to take in.

But to just really focus on like being just laugh per minute funny, that's a job, dude.

That's

you're so right.

because being philosophical is

the like

the diametric opposite of like what other let's say let's say comics do like right where they're like they they say like a crazy shocking thing yeah right that's like

yeah to get the wolf that requires them to work a little

huge yeah and and what when that works you're like yes

and that's why because then you know you kind of blew a mind a little bit i love that yeah but you know the kind of like just goofier shit, which you can load up pretty good.

And you can turn phrases that'll do the same thing, but to really like tell a story or do a run of jokes that are just laugh,

you know, kind of maximized.

I mean, that's a pretty great feeling, too.

Yeah.

But you realize, like, God, it'd be a whole hour of that.

Is that really what I'm supposed to be doing?

The work.

And then it's, and that's the work, and that's a lot of work.

Yeah.

I,

oh, that's really nice, Mark.

I, I, I feel like you're also

clarifying for me that I might be going about this the wrong way at SNL, where it's just about like,

it's just about what's immediately gratifying to both the audience and to you as a writer because you're just like, okay, like we've only got two days to do this.

Let's just like

load her up with like quick little jokes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can tell you breaking news.

I never want to play a fucking inanimate object ever again.

I never want to, like, I, I, don't want to really go for like the low-hanging, like, gay male fruit.

Yeah.

But it's kind of what, like, sometimes I don't want to blame anybody, but it feels like it's what people sort of like internally want me to do.

Yeah.

And, and I try to push back on it as much as I can.

And, and if you go and find the weird stuff that's like a little more out there and like a little bit more risky or risk-taking, I should say, like, it's there.

It's just like, I guess it just doesn't get the same kind of like response.

Well, how does Lauren react to it?

I think Lauren just, I think Lauren just wants it to be a good show for everybody, no matter what.

Every episode, he

really wants it to just be the best show.

He's like that kind of impresario person.

He's just like, well, it's interesting, kind of the techniques.

And

it does seem like it would be pressure to be the gay cast member.

And yeah.

Yeah.

And I want there to be, like, I want there to be others.

Yeah.

You know, and there are, and there have been.

I just like other gay men would be so fun.

But I think like, you know, know, when you, when you think about, like, hater or something, that, you know, the other techniques to comedically, like, there's, you know, like to figure out how to do slow burn stuff.

You know, like, I guess it's just an applied, you know, like to see a different timing to how you want to present something.

Yeah.

To at least, you know, challenge that part of yourself.

I know.

And I have it, I have it really good there.

You know, I just think

we still, still, it's still a huge cast.

Yeah.

And there's just no, none of us can afford to like go for the slow burn stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, okay, well, this is, I'm only in two things this week, and I got to make them count.

And there's like 10 that aren't going to be on.

Exactly.

And, you know, four performers that aren't going to be on this week.

So there's a moment where it's sort of like, well, they'll just throw that in there.

Right.

And like, this is going to, you know, I'm in now.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean,

there's only so, so many minutes in the show.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

On top of there only being, there being this many cast members and on top of it being like, okay, well, how do you get everyone to score?

And it's just all these things.

I think working there is, yeah, I don't know.

Well, okay.

Yeah.

Being back on the eighth floor this week, like, did that, was there, was there a regressive

poll?

Okay, great.

No, because like

I loved doing Conan.

Yeah.

And, you know, whatever evolved between me and Conan, the thing I realized, I think I talked about it on that opening you listened to, it's like I was always trying to do well.

Yeah.

It's just like people didn't know me, and I was a lot.

So when I, you know, when I come out with, you know, hot, come in hot, people are like, who the fuck is this Kelly?

Yeah.

So like, I, I can forgive that.

I don't, I don't have any of that going back.

That's great.

I, you know, I'm always happy to be on that floor.

And to, you know, and I love Seth.

I mean, Seth is great.

The best.

But I was, I was even asking like being on that floor and like having like the SNL doors be right there.

Like, no, no.

I mean, like, you know, that was like, you know, three days days of my life.

Yeah.

You know, and

I don't care.

Did I even audition in the studio?

I didn't think I did because I wasn't a character guy.

I think I was being, if anything, looked at for update.

For update.

Yeah.

So like, I didn't have to go through that.

Sure, sure, sure.

Like, I didn't go through the whole sort of like, you know, on stage doing character thing.

I just had the meeting with Lauren.

Great.

But like, I can't even remember really that, that office until I was back in it.

Like, that wasn't the trauma.

The trauma was like, you know, how did I fuck this up?

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

And

you're the candy guy?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I was looking for that when my meeting.

Yeah.

No, he swears it was Tootsie Rolls, and I got to believe him.

Oh, yeah, it might have been Tootsie Rolls.

Yeah.

Your meeting went better than mine the first year.

Because

I auditioned enough times.

The first meeting I took with him, totally bombed, didn't get it.

And it was because I can't.

I mean, were you already writing there?

No.

So there was one whole year between, between, I auditioned four times total

and two times the first year in 2017, made it to the Lorne meeting.

And the first thing out of my mouth, I came in, huh?

And he was like, who the fuck is this guy?

I was like,

by the way, I'm Canadian too, and I speak French fluently.

And I grew up in Montreal.

And oh my God.

And he was like, what?

And

didn't get the job.

And they just called me back in a year later.

And then,

by then, it was fine.

But it was just like, that first,

I felt the spiritual connection to you after I fucked up that meeting.

So, so hard.

Well, I mean, when I was there, it was like, it was Lauren and then Higgins came in and he's like looming over Lauren.

It was like fucking godfather.

And they're just both looking at me like, am I supposed to be exuding something?

What am I, you know?

And I was cocky.

And I don't feel any real trauma about that shit anymore.

I love that.

Well, I think.

By virtue of realizing that I was not ready to do it.

I never thought in terms of a career and show business or how to get a job.

I was just a fucking monster.

It was just a comic, you know?

And so there was nothing calculating in my head.

Like I had no angle.

Yeah.

You know, I was just sort of like, this is me, man.

What do we, you know?

Yeah.

Whatever.

Whatever.

Okay, good.

But I was asking, like, being back on A.

Okay, so no, that was not regressive in terms of the SNL piece.

Great.

But also talking to Lauren, I mean, and him giving me two days.

That was the funniest part about it.

It's like, you know, he had to be somewhere and we did like an hour or so.

And he's like, did you get what you needed?

Do you need to come back?

And I'm like, yeah, I could come back.

Okay.

I love it.

And I really, it really humanized him.

Yeah.

You know,

he is

just an appendage of that floor.

And he's been walking those hallways for like 40 fucking years.

You know, and he's a TV producer.

Yeah.

And like, and he lives there.

Okay, fine.

He's got a billion dollars in the house in the Hamptons,

wherever the hell it is.

But, but day to day,

he's never missed a show.

He's just the guy who works at that place and runs that shop.

It's weird.

Maybe I'm.

It's weird, but it's also, no.

And I, and I, and I, trust me, I'm, I'm like, I'm someone who's like, Lauren, you goof, but I, but, but I think about it and I'm like, oh, it's, it's also incredible.

And whatever.

Yeah, it's everything.

So what

is this award show of C-Signs for?

Oh,

it's so

Matt, my friend Matt Rogers and I have a podcast.

He was the gay guy in the sketch group at NYU.

I was the gay guy in the improv group.

And then

we became friends.

We did sketch together after school, after college, I should say.

Yeah.

And then

started this podcast, didn't think it would go anywhere.

And then

it's been like the most consistent thing.

And then we did a bit a few years ago where we just like had no guest on and we were just kind of like

unveiled a list of 100 categories and like 10 nominees in each one.

And then we were like, okay, well, we'll announce the winners at a later date and just no plans to like actually produce anything, make anything out of it.

And then we did it at Lincoln Center one year

because we got an offer to do a slot there.

We were like, what should we do?

Oh, we can like pretend the awards are a thing.

And then we just did that over, this is our fourth year doing it overall, but our first time doing it on TV.

And so, yeah, it's just been

made-up award show.

Made-up award show.

That's all it is.

Yeah.

And I guess last question.

Is there, because one of the surprise kind of results of me doing WTF

was that it really was helpful to a lot of people.

Is there

a gay Asian contingent of your audience that is grateful

to you?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I feel like I'm really lucky in that

gay Asian contingent does reach out every now and then.

And that is really...

Yeah, that's...

And they see representation.

Yeah.

I think the touching thing about the China social media moment was that they were like, wow, like

kind of crazy that this guy is on a show like SNL.

That's pretty wild.

Like there would be a lot of breakdown videos where people would be like, okay, here's who this guy is, and here's what he's known for.

And then one of the things was SNL.

And they were like, you know, SNL has always been this wonderful sort of cross-section of American comedy and different people from different walks of life coming and just different comedy disciplines arriving in it at different moments.

And they were just like, you know,

this is a guy who came up in his own weird way.

And I think

the definitive thing about SNL now is that it is, it is a very, to Lauren's credit, it's a very great cross-section of comedy today yeah where you have you have club people you have old people you have sketch people you have Groundland CCB people but you also have like tick-tock comedians you have like like there's no there's no discriminating thing there right he knows what how wide open the field is exactly and he's uh you know taking advantage of that I think so and I can and like somehow we all work well together that's good and the the reconciliation with Shane was that real

what What are you talking about?

Like the hug?

Well, I mean, was that, because

they made a lot of hay out of that.

They did.

And, you know, I just wonder what the real feelings were.

The real feelings are, I think,

like, we have nothing in common, but I think we, like, there's like a mutual sort of respect from afar.

I think.

He's a funny guy.

Funny guy.

I think

the trauma that I was talking about in terms of being moved to cast was like,

I think I'm still dealing with

being implicated in some way in this like nat in like one of these like big national stories about cancel culture.

Yeah.

Like I still I think I'm still working through that.

Yeah, because you didn't volunteer for that.

No, and neither did, and like

what I, what I want, like what I just want to,

what I think is important is that like

he and I had like in that weekend, like

a moment of connection just to be like, Harry, are you okay?

Yeah.

Because this is crazy.

What you mean when it happened?

When it happened.

Yeah.

Like I like.

When he was in the building.

So I, I, so like, so I don't think he was, we were in the building at the same time, but like it was announced on that day.

And then I like.

That he gotten fired or

that the three of us, that me, Chloe, and Shane, were hired.

And then

I like got up early.

I went to the park.

I meditated.

And then I was like, okay, my whole life's about to change.

Celebratory moment.

And then I took a nap.

And then when I got up, we had the same agent.

So when I got up, my agent calls me.

And she's like, I'm so sorry.

And I missed all these.

I had all these missed calls.

She was like, I'm so sorry.

I was like, what what are you talking about then I find out about it and then my first instinct is my the first thing I tell my agent is do you have his number like I need to call him yeah like I just need to like check in and see like where where he is yeah so like there was no recon like the reconciliation before or no we'd not we'd not met before oh and so the reconciliation is that like was that what happened like on that day that it all broke it was just like hey like we're we're two human beings I don't know like I don't know you from Adam I don't know your comedy from any from anywhere and I think he could say the same for me it was just just like, I think these are like human beings at the center of the world.

Where was the conversation?

So he did not get back to me until two days later.

Yeah.

And speaking of Aquafina, I was on set for the show for Nora.

And then ironically, I was like on a set with like a bunch of other Asian people.

You know, it was just this thing of like, whoa, like, um.

Everything about that moment was so weird and kismety.

And

I mean, it all broke in this way.

The reason it resonated was because of like the irony of the coincidence of the hirings.

Right.

And so the conversation later was like,

just he called me back and he was like, hey,

this is crazy.

How are you doing?

I'm so sorry.

Like, blah, blah, blah.

It wasn't like, I was just joking.

No, no way.

He,

I have no idea what his, I still have no idea what those days were like for him.

But then I was like, hey, look, like,

let's, like, well, we can make it work.

Yes, it's like, whatever.

Like, I'm like

here for you, question mark.

And then I said, and I'll, I'll see you at work.

Yeah.

This is before they announced the firing.

And I was like, I'll see you at work.

And then he, I think at that point, he knew something that I didn't.

He kind of laughed and said, yeah, sure.

And then we hung up.

Because I think at that point, he had been told that he was not going to work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so

the fact that he's been back like multiple times is like that's like there was just nothing to reconcile.

But I think both of us have had to like navigate like being used being used yeah

yeah

and i think there's there was there was like a recruitment going on either side of like if you like this guy then this is what you stand for right and if you like this guy then this is what you stand for and i think both of us are like

probably a little bit more dimensional than that yeah totally usually is the case yeah yeah yeah yeah well it was great talking to you pal you too sorry if i was long-winded no you're not okay did you feel good about it i feel great about about it.

Good.

There you go.

What a great talk.

What a great guy.

He's up for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a comedy series at the Emmys.

And hang out for a minute, folks.

Hey, next Monday, my guest will be Ben Stiller.

And if you have a WTF Plus subscription, you can go all the way back to episode 79.

That was the first time I talked to Ben on the show.

It was a big deal.

And this was back in 2010.

Tropic Thunder, I think, is one of the best Hollywood satires ever.

Oh, thanks.

And I had to watch it a couple of times to really see that there are some jokes and there are some nuances in there that are going to be lost on a lot of people.

Right.

But nonetheless, you really took on the monster that feeds you.

Right.

Yeah, for sure.

But I mean, that never was an issue for me.

To me, that's actually where I've always grabbed it.

I know.

Ben Stewart showed that as well.

That's always where I've found, you know, that's the humor that I've enjoyed: you know, where you are able to make fun of this ridiculous world and how caught up we all get in it and be able to look at ourselves and see what it is.

But I thought that thing did it in such a way, like, I didn't feel like, obviously, you know, a threat to the industry is decided,

that's decided upon whether or not it makes a lot of money.

Right.

So on some level, you know, you were protected there because the movie did well.

It did well enough, yeah.

You know, when you break it down, I think the real chance that was taken was by the studio to make a movie that was that

big budget, a movie that was about a subject matter that historically has not really ever been successful at the box office.

When they decided that,

was their decision based primarily on you being in it and Jack being in it and Downey?

I mean, were they like, well, how can we lose?

I think, no.

You know, I honestly think it was a unique situation.

at a studio, DreamWorks, that it was not, you know, has changed in the last couple of years since then.

I think it was a moment in time, I don't think that movie could get made today

at that budget.

Right.

Because everything has changed so radically in the last couple of years.

Right.

That's episode 79 with Ben Stiller.

Get that episode in every WTF episode ad-free with a WTF Plus subscription.

Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

This guitar bit here is a little swappy, but I do think I landed on some kind of AC DC-ish

riff in the midst of it.

All right.

So here, here, here.

Take it.

Boomer lives, monkey and La Fonda, cat angels everywhere.