Episode 1661 - Jena Friedman

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Lock the gate.

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, Nicks?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast.

Welcome to it.

This is the home stretch coming in for landing.

How's everybody?

You okay?

You holding up?

I got to be honest with you.

I do so much better when I talk to other people.

Man, I don't know.

If I'm left to my own devices in my own head, it doesn't, it's not a great situation.

Currently, I know, look, I know a lot of you have listened to me.

Over the years, you've heard me go through things.

You've heard me transcend some things.

You can see probably better than me, the things that are still there, the remaining patterns the spiral of circular thought maybe the the uh what is it the the diameter is it the diameter spreads out is that it what's it the radius is the one from the center to the edge and the diameter is the whole thing maybe the the diameter of each spiral spreads out kind of like an expanding universe but but they're they're still there man they're still fucking there today

and i don't know if any of you can relate relate to this.

Today, I woke up and I wanted to claw out of my body.

I just wanted, you know, I just don't.

Some days, usually food-related, these are the deep ones.

These are the deep issues.

The deep down, body image, food, fat, slash, you're a gross

spiral.

Definitely

the most

existentially rooted one

and it's just odd i go through these times where look i don't know why and i'm not bragging

but men's health wants to do a story on me all right so that means they want to do some photos of me and i don't know what that means i don't have a six pack i don't have you know i'm in good shape i look all right i talked about this before i know but it's it's it's coming up

and there's some part of me and i guess i just have to take notice when this happens.

I know I've got this shoot in a couple of days, and I don't know why.

I'm happy to do it, but you know, I'm not going to be doing any shirts off kind of things.

I'm not going to be doing any workout pictures.

I don't even know if my regiment is on the level.

I know it works for me.

Look, I know I'm fit.

But come on, dude.

It's a lot of pressure.

I've been avoiding abs my entire life with the with the belief that someday I'll have them.

But that's, you know, that's kind of

you

I know that's not gonna happen because a couple of reasons I don't have the discipline to do that and you know both on a dietary level or on an exercise level I exercise I got muscles I'm in good shape I eat well don't feel great hardly ever but I don't think it's dietary And I'm going to be 62 in September, but still, there's this thing hanging over me, which is a men's health profile.

I'm like, okay,

it's fine.

What fucking difference does it make?

Just tell them what you eat.

Tell them what your exercise regimen is, and answer the questions about your life that they want to hear.

No problem.

But the point is, is now it's days away, and I've been plowing through a fucking pint of ice cream two nights in a row.

Yesterday, I had leftover chili from 4th of July, but I didn't have any cornbread.

So me and Kid are eating this chili.

We're gonna.

And I'm like, well, I can make cornbread.

It takes two seconds.

So now I've got a fucking tray of cornbread in there that I'm just eating.

You know, there's no way to lie about how much cornbread you've eaten or cake when the whole tray or whole cake pan is right there.

You can see it slowly go away.

Just taking slivers at a time, thinking like, well, this is cool.

But any way you slice it, literally, you'll see it's fucking gone in three days.

And that's all gone into your fat face.

Sorry, that's wrong.

Into your, into your dumb hole.

How's that?

Better?

So

basically, what I'm saying is some part of me knowing that this is coming up, I want to make myself as miserable as possible in the days leading up to that.

So that's happening.

Pretty fun.

Pretty fun day.

Look, on the show today, I talked to Jenna Friedman.

I've known Jenna a long time.

She does stand-up.

She was a producer at the Daily Show.

She was a writer on Letterman.

She was one of the writers on Borat 2, which got her an Oscar nomination.

She's got a couple of specials out there, and she'll be doing a new special at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland next month.

Yeah.

And we haven't talked in a while.

And I don't think, I think we're through the tension.

But yeah, I mean, we had a nice conversation.

Also, I'm back at Largo for a comedy and music show on Wednesday, July 23rd.

And I'll be

in New York at the 92nd Street Y in New York City for a Q ⁇ A on Thursday, July 31st, following a sneak preview of my HBO special.

Tickets for both both shows are at wtfpod.com slash tour.

And one other thing, our old buddy, the great Eddie Pepatone, has a new special out starting today.

It's called Eddie Pepitone, The Collapse.

And you could get it at Veeps.com.

Yeah, I just want to claw out of my body.

And I'll bring that energy with me to the photo shoot for men's health.

That'll be awesome.

Just me hunched over, sucking in my stomach that I don't really have, but I feel like I have, but it's probably not real, but I can't tell because I have body dysmorphia and it doesn't matter.

If I feel it, it's real, right?

I know it's probably not real, but this is the only one that I really commit to.

If I feel it, it's real.

The flab, the chubs, the stuff hanging over.

I can't, you can't really see it, but it doesn't matter.

This is my issue.

This is the one that stays.

This is the one that stays.

Fuck.

Oh my God.

And then I had to

take the cat to the vet today.

I'm looking for new solutions for Charlie.

So I had to take Sammy to the vet today just for a checkup.

And it turns out Sam is a stalky little fucker and he's pretty strong.

And Sam and I, we get along fine, but

he's not.

He's a cat cat.

He likes cats.

He doesn't like me that much.

He likes me okay, but it's very erratic and spontaneous and a little awkward when he shows affection.

And I think he's kind of, I think he's kind of dumb, but you know, when he focuses, he's like, he can, he can move.

Like he's like all cat.

But like just sitting around, he looks kind of dumb and he's kind of not mopey, but he always looks a little concerned.

And, you know, it's very awkward.

I know, I don't know if he likes to be touched or where to touch him.

It's just, he's one of those cats, man.

But he's tough, dude.

Like, I had to take him to the also, like, very adventurous.

He's the only cat.

The once or twice I've left the door open.

He's fucking out.

He's not running around.

He's just sort of like, dum-de-dum.

What's going on out here?

Dum-dee-dum.

But look, I love Sam.

We share space and we understand each other.

And I think he's a, I get a kick out of him.

But I had to take him to the vet for a checkup.

And

I put the crate out.

I've gotten a lot better at getting cats in crates since the fire when I had to really,

you know, man up to it and not fuck around.

You know, you do need the focus.

But I woke up to put him in the crate and I put him in the crate.

And that guy just like, like, like almost Herculean catch strength just bolted out of it.

Like I couldn't even grab him, but it was strong.

It was surprisingly strong.

And I'm like, well, fuck, there goes that vet visit.

That's not happening.

But about half an hour later, because he is kind of dumb, I think it was pretty far behind him already.

And I just scooped him up and I put him in.

And, you know, I had a towel in there and he's bitching and he's crying and he's kind of flailing around.

It was like, God damn it.

I just, I've been doing this my entire adult life, bringing one fucked up cat or another to the goddamn vet and all the anxiety that that induces.

And it kind of sealed the deal.

I was going to take Charlie out to New Mexico with me when I go out there for a week.

And just so he wouldn't be home causing trouble and beating up on my other cats and shitting or whatnot.

But after this, this ride, this short ride with Sammy, I was like, fuck that dude.

I don't want to take him on the plane.

I don't have to walk him through security.

I have no idea.

I have to, I ordered a carrier, a travel carrier, and I'll start trying to break Charlie in.

But nonetheless, so I'm driving with Sam and he's just, he's not howling, but he's not happy and he's all fucked up.

And then like, I smell shit in the car and I'm like, God damn it.

So I got to pull over on the way and see if he's shitting the car, which means I got to reach in and hope he doesn't get out and start jumping around the car.

I didn't have a fucking paper towel, so I got to pick up this lump of cat shit with my bare hands and throw it into the parking lot and then close up the goddamn cage and bring him to the fucking vet.

It's so much drama and anxiety.

It's amazing I didn't get killed on my way over there.

But I've dealt with all of it.

I've taken cats on planes.

I've walked cats through security.

I've driven them to vets.

I've lost cats in the wild and gotten them back.

I have freaked out about cats in every way possible.

I've dealt with every cat disaster that's possible inside a house.

I've put two cats down being in the room with them.

I know it all.

But goddammit, just driving a cat to the fucking vet, man.

I was more worked up than Sammy was by the time we got there and aggravated and already not feeling great in my body.

But I get it, man.

I am like the same fucking way.

The amount of anxiety, aggravation, you know, just kind of like shitting my pants, not literally, before I've got to do something that seems scary or I'm not used to, I'm the same fucking way to the point where I don't even want to do it.

Sammy didn't have a choice.

I generally don't have a choice either, but you get right up to the edge of that where you're just sort of like, I want out of this fucking box of me.

I'm going to shit right in my pants.

because of how fucking aggravated and frightened and fucking mad I am.

I'll do that just despite me.

I don't want to fucking do this.

And then you fucking do it and you're kind of even happy to be there.

You know, it's nice, new, new experience, new environment, new people.

And then, you know, you're on your way home.

You're like, well, that wasn't so terrible.

Then why?

Why?

Why put yourself through that shit, Mark?

Why do it?

So look, Jenna Friedman, as I mentioned before, I've known her for years.

Comedian, writer, producer.

She'll be at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland with her show, Jenna Friedman, Motherfucker.

That's August 8th through 24th.

You can get tickets at jennafriedman.com.

So I was telling you that, like, in this new special, not unlike the last one I did, I kind of had sections and there was like 15 minutes up front that were specifically political.

And what I was going to say, because you, you know, kind of swim in the same waters, is that that an analogy?

It's tricky to find a tone, especially if you want to come back from it, that is not slightly condescending and self-righteous.

Absolutely.

How do I respond without sounding self-righteous and condescending?

But I had to kind of like figure it out.

I had to work it out because I knew

Not that necessarily I think that what I'm doing is for everybody, because

it clearly is, But

given the state of politics and the amount of fear on behalf of vulnerable and left-leaning and even just Democrats or anybody, that you have to ground what you're doing in that community.

And I think it's still for everybody, but you have to represent.

Are you saying the audience?

That's people are just fearful of what's going on right now.

They're terrified.

But like, because it's a special, you know, I want it to read that, you know, people aren't going to be like, oh, fuck this, you know, like whoever else, you know, I don't want to listen to politics.

I don't like this guy.

Right.

So to find some just tonal middle ground, not material-wise, but just a way of presenting that is a little more kind of like just a given as opposed to

was tricky.

Yeah.

Do you ever think about that?

I don't know.

I don't, I think part of my problem is I don't think about that.

Oh, yeah.

I just kind of do I just kind of say what I want to say.

I wish I thought about I wish I was wired to think about the audience more.

Well, yeah, it's not like obviously I'm not pandering kind of guy, but I did want it to because I wanted to ease into this other part where I knew I was just going to be not so much lighthearted, but more focused on just like the comedy of a story that just hits.

So I just decided to

change the tone a little bit to just make it more kind of like, hey, this is what's happening, as opposed to like, we're fucked.

And these guys, you know, there's a little of that in there.

I think I haven't done a special in this moment.

I think we're in a particularly

challenging moment.

Yeah.

And I think your impulse is correct

in terms of.

broadening out and not alienating people who might benefit from listening to you.

Sure.

Yeah.

But I said, I said, look, I'm going to try to be entertaining now.

I don't think it is necessarily the reason I started doing comedy,

but I think I can.

Yeah.

And I did it.

So it just, but I knew what I was up against, and I did take some pretty solid shots.

But even.

When you say solid shots, what do you mean?

At politicians or at least.

Well, like without it becoming too, like, look, you've got all these talk show hosts who are doing one-liners about Trump or whatever, but to even talk in the

arena that we're still in this sort of two-party situation that's resolvable in the old way, I think is, it's not ignorant, and it's not even irresponsible, it's just stupid.

But that's all they know how to do.

So if I'm, instead of just mentioning names, I want to make sure this stuff has some legs.

So it's not this dated thing hinged to a thing that happened.

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.: Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I never thought it was him specifically.

It's the whole, it's everything that kind of enabled this moment to happen.

It was so clear from, you know, I was on the campaign trail in 2015

working on a movie and I saw him.

I was seated behind him, actually.

I was working on this silly movie with these guys called The Good Liars.

Yeah.

And

we saw the moment, the New Hampshire primary,

when

he became like a viable political candidate.

Horrible moment.

It was really scary.

It was because, so I was in this movie and it was a docu-style

unscripted comedy about these two guys who were pretending to be Trump supporters before Trump supporters were even really a thing.

It's okay.

So before I even get into it, I'm actually like very in my head talking about Trump right now.

Yeah.

I think I posted about this, but I had a situation a couple weeks ago.

Did you see

in Canada?

Yeah, because I was, you know, I went to Canada after a year and I was expecting something.

Yeah.

But nothing happened to me.

That's what a couple of other people said.

I know it was my own fault.

I was coming back and I had my guard down and I had offered up that I was a comedian.

This is American Customs, coming back into this.

American Customs, but in Vancouver.

Right.

No, yeah, I know that place.

I didn't know that American Customs met you in Vancouver.

Yeah, they're on that.

Yeah, they're all it's easier, but like, yeah.

So I had my guard down.

I thought it was literally just airport security asking me questions to make sure that I wasn't getting paid under the table or something.

And they were like, what were you doing up in Canada?

And I said I was there performing comedy at Ted, which already sounds like a lie.

And then he said, were you working or did you get, you know, and I just was like, no, it was unpaid, which is also a whole other issue.

And then he said, you're a comedian.

And I said, yes.

And he said, what do you joke about?

And this is going to make me sound really stupid, but I'm fine with it.

I actually said

everything other than airport security.

I just wasn't even thinking that he was

customs.

And he didn't even react.

He just kind of stared at me.

And then he was like, what do you joke about?

And I

looked at his shirt and it said U.S.

Customs.

And before I could respond, because I didn't know what I was going to say, he asked, Do you make fun of politicians?

Yeah.

And

I said no

because Trump's a businessman.

Yeah.

And he was like, go ahead.

And he let me through.

And it was this weird moment where I just thought, like, that's the craziest thing I've ever been asked.

Really?

As an American citizen with an American passport, going back into my own country.

But do you think, like, you know, you thought, you felt that his tone was that of policy and not curiosity?

Do you know what I mean?

Because like those guys, a lot of times they just want you to make a joke.

I don't think he was being flirty or jokey.

No.

I think he was literally just following orders.

Also, that's

that's that feels like a question.

What if I had said yes?

To what?

Yeah, yeah, I joke about politicians.

Is that illegal?

What if I had said that?

Well, I mean, I would have said it.

Yeah, of course.

What else are we going to joke about?

I don't know.

You felt like I wanted to get home to my child.

I had a flight to catch.

Yeah.

Because I've been asked that.

I don't know, like, you know, if I've been asked specifically, like, what do you joke about?

But I could see how in that moment and in the moment we're living in, that could feel like a threat.

Do you joke about politicians?

I just channeled my high school age self with my, like, coming home with my mom and being like, have you been drinking with your friends?

And I was just like, no.

Interesting.

Yeah, it didn't.

That's, that feel, that feels like a normal question.

Some for sure.

I mean, I like sometimes they,

it's a very weird, stunted job,

those guys.

And, you know, they, they're they're void.

They're devoid of personality, a lot of them, when you meet them.

And also, they have this, this, you don't know what they're looking for.

But I could see in the climate we live in that that would seem like, you know, a check against you or whatever.

But I've had them try to make conversations and it's never particularly fun.

But sometimes I think it's just the nature of the personality of the job that makes them flat.

And, but, but I, look, I'm not going to doubt your fear or what it implied.

I've been asked asked a ton of things going into other countries.

I've never been asked questions going back into the country that I was born.

Oh, well,

I have, but I understand.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just, maybe I was on edge.

I was I was hanging out with like Carol Caldweller or whatever, however you pronounce her last name, one of the whistleblowers for Cambridge Analytica.

And I just was like thinking about this a lot.

Look, there's no reason not to be paranoid, you know, and there's no reason, you know, but I mean, and now within the last week, he's, you know, he's, he's going to investigate celebrities.

But look, it's a scary time, and there's no reason not to have that kind of fucking reaction to it.

Yeah.

But you're okay.

You made it back.

No, I'm fine.

It wasn't ever about me.

I just felt like it.

At times they are changing.

Yeah, it felt like a scene in the handmaid's tale in a flashback.

Yeah, yeah.

It didn't feel, it had nothing.

I fully understand my privilege.

I wasn't afraid.

It just felt ominous.

The first thing I did after, I texted a friend of mine who

doesn't look like Ann Romney.

She's not white.

Yeah.

And she was also at TED.

And I just said, just FYI, don't tell them you're a comedian.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

I've always found that that question in the past has been just their awkward way of making conversation.

But it sounds a little different when it becomes specific.

Yeah.

How is the mother thing going?

How's the mother thing going?

I don't identify as a mother.

I feel like that term is...

No, it's so weird.

It wasn't something that I wanted.

It just never...

I got to like 39.

How old's a kid?

Two and a half.

Yeah.

The best.

He's the best.

Yeah.

What's his name?

I'll tell you.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I just, yeah, he's the best.

He's so funny and cool, and I love him so much, and I'd feel so cliche, and I feel like I...

What do you mean you feel cliche?

Or just, I don't know.

Parenting changed changed people.

I mean, I don't know if it, yeah, I don't know if it changed me or whatever, but he's just, I just feel very lucky.

And you love him.

I love him.

And you feel connected to him and you miss him when

you're away.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, I guess I miss him, but I do love him.

I've gone away from him a little bit.

But yeah,

I totally miss him.

It's not even that I miss him.

It's just like when I'm with him, my whole body feels like peaceful and calm.

When you're with him?

Yeah.

Oh, that's nice.

Yeah.

He's just, he's, he's all, he's like, make sure you let him become his own person.

Of course.

And I understand.

I understand the history of Jewish mothers and the burden I have.

You're saying that is experience.

The cross to bear.

No, I understand that.

I know that.

Boundaries.

I know.

But not yet.

No, not yet.

But

are you like,

what is your mothering?

What have you learned in terms of, because I don't have them.

And I don't have them either.

I just have one.

No, I get it.

But in terms of like the learning curve, like decisions you've made against your instincts, what are they?

Do you know what I mean?

Like sometimes I think whether it's over protection or negotiating things that you should probably let them do on their own, that kind of stuff.

It's very hard for me to set boundaries.

He's the only man I've never, the only guy I've never been able to like say no to.

And

I don't want him to be entitled.

So I, you know, we give him like this little timeout where if he just, because two years, two and a half, they're always pushing you.

And so, yeah, we have this little chair where he can like read a book in if he's really bad and just keeps, he's not bad, he's wonderful, but like we've only put him in the chair twice.

That's the punishment, yeah.

We'll put him in a chair.

Punishment chair.

Well, he just the idea of being in timeout makes him sad.

We're like, you can read a book in timeout, and we'll just put him in there for like two minutes.

Yeah, it's just on principle.

We have to be like, you can't,

if we tell you not to do something, you have to listen.

Yeah.

Is it sinking in?

Yeah, he's really, really great.

Oh, good.

I mean, I don't know any other kids,

but he's just, he's awesome.

I don't mean you don't know any of her kids.

I mean, I know his friends, you'll appreciate this.

They all have names of like Jewish men from the 30s.

They're all like Seymour, Sandy, Sidney.

Any hymen?

Maury, no hymans.

My son is named Hyman.

After.

After what?

Not even.

Yeah.

It's too many steps to get back there.

I know.

Yeah.

Well, that's good.

I mean, at least you're adjusting to it, but you still don't like to identify as a mother necessarily.

I don't know.

It's so complicated.

I kind of feel, and did you just yawn?

No, no.

I took a deep breath.

Okay.

Well, that's similar.

No, it's not.

Okay.

What is complicated about identifying as a mother?

What do you think it takes away from you?

I mean, I watched a special.

Do you watch Lady Killer?

Yeah.

Oof.

And that.

Why are you saying it?

Did you like it?

Yeah, I like it.

You know, look, you do a thing where you're like one time, the thing that, you know,

that always sticks with me about when I did a half-hour comedy special for HBO years ago, Jim Wolcott of the New Yorker.

He said something like, you know, Marin is good, but he tends to hit the,

I don't remember what the analogy was, like the fairground bell a little too much.

Like there, there is a weight to, you know, how you do stand-up and what you talk about.

And, you know, as funny as it, as it is, um, you know, it's still all pretty heavy.

Well, buckle up because

that special is hard for me to watch.

Why?

Because you're pregnant?

So

I found out my mom was sick like the day before.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, um, there's a pocket knife here that I'm just going to focus on anytime I feel like I get emotional.

Sure.

Just don't use it.

I know.

It's just such a, it's such a like macabre object, so it's just centering me.

But,

yeah.

The day before you taped.

I found out she was sick and like what?

Well, we didn't know it was pancreatic, but oh my God.

Yeah.

It's the worst one.

I know.

Yeah.

And so when I, when I like, I just, ugh.

You know, you were holding in all that?

I used to have Queen X.

No, I don't want, I like, I really don't like to cry in front of my coworkers.

And it's so funny because

I like, I can't,

I watched Sarah Silverman's special.

Post-mortem.

So good.

Yeah, it was great.

And it reminded me, because so many people are doing stand-up comedy now.

And then I look at Sarah and I'm like, she is.

She's such a pro.

Yeah.

And she's so composed.

And it's, her jokes are just perfectly mapped out.

Yeah.

and i'm working on a new hour where i'm trying to excavate these feelings and it's just been of grief how your mom passed away oh yeah so yeah she died like six weeks later wow

that's fucking horrible well i'm sorry for your loss so you're when you watch that it's not it's not about the material

yeah

as much as what you were kind of keeping in yeah and the material i'm proud of it I didn't really get to workshop it as much as I'd wanted to because it was during COVID and I was seven months pregnant.

Yeah.

But so there were a couple jokes, if you listen closely.

There's one joke about like I also was shooting a true crime show at the same exact time, which is so funny to me.

But because I was just like so pregnant and having to like read a crime scene.

Do you think you would have gotten pregnant if it wasn't COVID?

Oh, I know where you're going with that.

We can talk about that.

I'm not going anywhere with you.

No, COVID fully domesticated me.

I was,

I just came off of Edinburgh in 2019.

I was about to tour my hour.

What was the name of that show?

Miscarriage of Justice.

It was a political show.

It did well in Edinburgh.

Sorry, I can't pronounce it.

And I was about to tour it, and then the pandemic happened.

And then, yeah, I...

It's interesting how the Europeans like American political comedy much more than Americans.

Well, because it's like novelty to them, and they're so curious what is going on.

They don't, it's not as personal and they don't have the fatigue that we have.

And also they don't hear it from that side.

I mean, what they're, you know,

you know, Europeans in relation to, you know, resistance and what they've been through, every country has been through at least two of these fuckers.

Right.

So, you know, the language of resistance is something they can lock into.

But here it's like, you know, these, why didn't they shut up?

Right.

We're so, we are so naive as a country.

I mean, we're changing.

It used to to be that I would always do better in the UK because my comedy, more than political, is just dark.

And they have a darker comedic sensibility than we do over here.

But we're catching up.

It's gotten more political, I think, over time.

Yeah.

But I just mean more.

I don't even mean political.

I just mean dark.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, in my special, there's like this one joke about it's not so not funny, but I didn't realize that one of the leading causes, like the leading cause of death for pregnant women is homicide.

Which I was like, where's the joke?

But it's like the joke that ended up in the special is like, that's the male version of abortion.

You know,

I can't get an abortion.

So, you know,

it's not LOL, but it was funny to try it on, to try to keep working it out.

But I knew that if I'd had like a couple, like another month or two and just had been able to like work out this show, I would have gotten

bits like that kind of thing.

LOL is tricky with politics, because it's like there's a difference between LOL and a laugh of recognition.

Right.

Do you know what I mean?

But is our, so we're, it's nice for you to say that, you know, that that's politics.

I'm just talking about murdered women, murdered pregnant women.

That to me is like dark, but it's also obviously political.

Yeah.

But not everybody sees it as political.

Well, I mean, you frame it politically in the special.

Right.

Right.

Yes, I do.

I do.

I do.

I'm just trying to pretend I'm not a political comic.

Well, what.

Because I want to be able to give travel.

you want to be able to what?

Go get back into the country.

Oh, I thought you meant to tour.

Yeah, to tour and get back.

You're going to get back.

No, it's fine.

I know.

You know,

I mean, I think that,

well, look, I'm not going to speculate about the nature of whatever this authoritarian shit show is going to eventually turn into.

But

I don't know.

Like, I was thinking.

So, okay, so you're working on excavating

and

verbally processing your grief in the experience of

yeah it's yeah I've been yeah so um I have this new hour that I've been working out kind of since you were you doing it dynasty and stuff I've been doing I've been working out at Lyric and then

I've done a couple shows out of town so hard it's so hard when you're dealing with like because when I was talking about Lynn you know fairly quickly after she passed away you've got to sort of warn your audience that you know these emotions aren't processed yet so I don't oh, I did.

And I was like, look, you know me, this is what I'm going through.

I'm looking for the humor in terms of, and I do it on stage, you're more of a writer person, that like I find that if I get vulnerable

on stage to a point where I can't handle it, I'll generally be funny.

And usually

that's how I generate it.

Do you cry?

Have you cried on stage?

Yes.

During that, definitely.

And how do you, do you think people appreciated that

vulnerability?

Well, I mean, you know, I mean you said it in the last special I mean there is

you know when with grief in particular and even revisiting it

after it's been some time like if you get yourself into that place those tears are very specific do you know what I mean they're they're tears of loss and I think that those are the kind of tears that can't be held back.

So you're not crying because

you're mad or a baby cries or

self-pitying or whatever.

But grief is a universal experience.

And a lot of people,

they don't know how to share that.

So I think that the crying is received in the way that humans are supposed to receive it.

Yeah.

I was doing the show and I was blowing past the sad parts.

And I was able to just do the show.

And then I talked to a comedian friend whose father died when he was 22.

Yeah.

And I asked, you know, how long did it take you to like not cry all the time?

And he said it took like five to seven years.

Because I feel kind of weird that I can't

talk about it without crying.

But it's like,

what I tried to do in relation to that was the way I framed it in my head, especially because she died so out of the blue and tragically and quickly.

And she was young is that

there's like I'm not the victim she is.

You know, what I'm experiencing is loss.

And there's really nothing unusual about loss.

It is as human as, you know, birth and death and all of that.

It's just we don't have a cultural dialogue around it, really, or a way of emoting it.

I would say that you are the victim, that she's out.

Like you're the victim.

The people who loved her are the victims.

No.

She's gone.

I don't see them as victims.

I feel like somebody being taken out of life tragically and quickly

in a surprising surprising way.

I'm not saying she's not the victim.

I'm just saying you're also.

Yeah, I didn't see it as victimness because, and that was very helpful for me to put in place very early on.

I just tried to frame it as like, look, I lost somebody.

That is not

a victim position.

It's a human position.

Right.

And

also to know in my heart that there's nothing unusual about this.

Zero.

Right.

That this is a human experience, that no one can get out of life not experiencing it.

Everyone deals with loss.

Yeah.

It's like it's guaranteed.

It's the only thing that's guaranteed.

Yeah.

So on that level, you know, despite the fact that, you know, we don't know what to do with the feelings or we're embarrassed or when you have uncontrollable feelings,

it's too vulnerable, especially in public.

But the truth is, if more people do that, we've had some language around this.

And it's actually fairly politically righteous to

accept death and embrace grief and feel those feelings because the entire capitalist system is driven by avoiding death or denying it.

Trevor Burrus, also, like, robots aren't going to replace someone who's just crying on stage.

Yeah.

Well, I don't, I think you, I mean, we should do some research on that.

I'm sure that

they've got some pretty sophisticated crying robots now.

And I'm not sure there's not a lot of people on TikTok who aren't, you know,

for all

intents and purposes, you know, robots who cry.

Right.

AI, chatbots, and just people.

You know, people who like.

Oh, correct.

You know, that

their shtick is the vulnerability racket.

Yeah.

But, anyways, well, I'm sorry for your loss, and it's okay to cry.

So, how are you doing with the processing?

How long has it been now?

A little over two years.

I mean, I'm doing,

it's fine.

I just, yeah, I'm going over there.

I'm nervous about doing the show.

And

going over where?

To Edinburgh.

Oh, you're going there again?

Oh, that's right.

You told me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you don't have the show fully in place, but you get a little wiggle room of Edinburgh.

Yeah.

I'm working it out.

It's 90% there.

Yeah.

Okay.

And I'm heading over.

I'm going to do 18 shows

in August.

I know.

I know.

Are they produced or are you just going there on your own?

You got to

run around and hand out flyers and stuff.

I'm not going to have to do that.

Good.

Thankfully.

Yeah.

But I probably will.

I met you in Scotland, I think.

Yeah.

Glasgow.

Yeah, that town is crazy.

Glasgow?

I remember at the stand seeing there was like a hen party and that's a bachelorette party.

Or maybe they stopped having those or something.

In Glasgow?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But people, the woman got so drunk that she fell and knocked down like the whole table with her.

And people just laughed.

There was more public vomiting than I'd ever seen in my life

in that place.

It's so funny because what I remember about that trip was, you know, trying to talk you into going to business school.

What?

I don't remember that at all.

That was the entire fucking day.

You were trying to tell me to go to business school.

No, we were walking around, and you know, I watched your show, and I don't know how.

You watched me do stand-up, and then you told me.

No, you didn't know what to do.

You were trying to...

I was really young.

No, but you were trying to figure out because you got into Brandeis or somewhere.

This is someone else.

No, it's not.

You were like literally like, I don't know if I should pursue this or pursue business.

I mean, we talked about it for a while.

Oh, I got into UCLA Film School, but that wasn't then.

I don't know.

We talked about it.

I didn't apply to business school.

Well, you did not know if you wanted to stick with stand-up.

Really?

Yes.

I don't know how old you you were but it was like you were like it was you just didn't know if it was the right i think you were just nervous about the security element yeah of course yeah but it was like on your mind of course until you're making money doing comedy you're

thinking about making money doing comedy that's right so but i just remember the conversation i was sort of like well maybe you know you shouldn't do it

cool it wasn't because you're stand-up i don't even think i've seen it yet oh that's cool i don't even know like how we knew each other at that time I remember performing at a show with you, and you were on the same show, and it was a basement show,

and there were like 10 people there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember that too, vaguely.

Yeah.

And I remember we walked around a cemetery.

Oh, probably.

I love cemeteries.

Yes, a big cemetery there.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

And then, you know, I just remember that you were just unsure, but you would have been.

It was at the beginning.

Yeah.

You had just started doing the

podcast.

Yeah.

So crazy.

Yeah.

So long ago.

Yeah.

And you're happy you chose the career you chose.

Yeah.

You're such a dick.

I'm really not a dick.

You want to make me a dick.

I don't want to make you a dick.

You just want to make me a dick.

I don't want to make you.

No, you've evolved.

You've evolved.

I'm not.

You're not a dick.

You're really, you're a veteran.

You're a

wise.

Oh, come on.

So, but like, let's go through so people know because you're not

necessarily,

no one knows who you are, Jenna and that's not me being a dick you say yourself they do at my business school

your secret business school yeah

but what did you do you just what you didn't you didn't go into USC I got letterman I got into UCLA right film school yeah and and then I got letterman out of New York

and that was when you were that was like 2010 2011 yeah how did that go how'd you get that

so I had I think it was Jeff Garland I opened for him, and David Minor saw me.

Oh, right, right, right.

And then they submitted me.

I sent in a packet.

I didn't hear back.

And then a year later,

they asked me to submit again.

I submitted something overnight.

Yeah.

And

then I went in for the interview.

And they'd asked me, have you ever written for anyone?

And the only person I'd, I just wrote some roast jokes for Jeff Ross.

Yeah.

And I realized I'd never, like, I'd never had a job.

How do you get hired if you don't have a job?

And I just said, I, I wrote some roast jokes for Jeff Ross.

And they, I didn't realize this would happen, but they called Jeff immediately and Jeff sang my praises and I got hired that day.

That's crazy.

I know.

But I remember like, because there was a period there where we were friends until I decided that you were being condescending to me.

You were so mean.

It's okay.

But it was a misunderstanding.

I was, you didn't think I was as insecure as I was.

I didn't think you were.

I didn't think my mistake, I didn't realize that you can be older and not be mature.

You were twice my age, and I just thought you were wise and would be.

Not twice your age.

Well, not anymore.

Okay.

Not twice.

Fine.

20 years.

Okay, fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you didn't realize that you could be a neurotic, immature, insecure person at my age at that time.

Yeah, like 46 or something.

Who would meet his friend who he met in Edinburgh, and she was telling him about all his successes, her successes, and you didn't even fathom the idea that I could be like, oh, fuck.

I got nothing going on.

It wasn't my, that's how you heard it.

I think I was having a hard time at Edinburgh.

I know, and I feel bad for it now.

You were.

And

that was another part of my brain.

It's like, yeah, but you're a letterman.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I was just like, I, yeah.

You were getting opportunities I never, I never, ever got.

But yeah, I apologize for that.

Thank you.

For being immature.

That's okay.

And, you know, and defensive.

But I do remember because we went to the Chelsea restaurant.

And that place isn't there anymore.

That was the best.

That place that was open all night.

Like, it was on like, you know what I'm talking about?

On 14th?

Yeah.

But so how long did you stay over there?

In New York.

In Letterman.

A year.

And then there was a job, a field producer job at the Daily Show.

Was it rewarding?

I mean, did you feel like that was the trajectory that you were meant to do?

No, I mean, it was so weird because by the time I got there, Dave was, it was like weekend up Ernie's.

He was just like going yeah, totally just going through the motions.

There were a lot of, there was just a lot of politics and I didn't work with him at all.

So it's hard to, you know, I got a lot of top tens on and

a lot of like the things that we would submit on just like the kind of one-liners.

I was successful getting those on.

But it was just, it was a, and everybody was so demoralized.

At one point, I remember being nine months in, and they would call these like emergency top 10 meetings where, like, Dave didn't like any of the top 10s.

We had to start all over, and everybody was running around, and it was so stressful.

And I just giggled because it felt so silly to me that it's not annoying.

Someone's not dying.

And you weren't in the culture long enough to realize the cult of personality.

I just didn't.

And so I was laughing, and

I said something, I think it was Jeremy Weiner, and he's like, I was like, it's so, I don't know what I said, but Jeremy looked at me and he's like, you're part of us.

You've been here for nine months.

You're not

an outsider.

An outsider.

And it just was, but everybody there was so nice.

And

yeah,

it was so, it's so surreal, all these opportunities that you get because.

And then how'd the daily show happen?

Wyatt Sanak, who I knew in Stand Up, said that there was a field producer role open.

Yeah.

And I didn't know what that was.

And I said, I was like, I'm a comic.

It's not for me.

And he, to his credit, was like, don't be an idiot.

It'll teach you, you know, you're basically a writer-director in the field.

And

I submitted for the job.

I did this trial piece and I got it.

And to this day, that was, I mean, that was one of the best jobs I've ever had.

John was a great boss, and I learned how to write and direct

field segments.

How long were you there?

Three years.

I left when John, I only wanted to stay for one just because I just really was like a comic.

And then I just, I ended up staying till John retired.

So that's, it's interesting that like, so you got these opportunities when you're like in your early 20s.

Yeah.

And so

just the fact of them, yeah, see, that would have been, you know, another mistake I would have made in my immature mind was that it wasn't really about ambition even.

It was just about sort of having people recommend you.

And you're like, why wouldn't I do this?

My whole career has been pretty scattered and I just kind of take opportunities as they come and I try to make the most of them.

Well, yeah, but that one for The Daily Show really kind of paid off in terms of what you wanted to do with your life.

Yeah.

I mean, the two shows that I had on the air that were my own would not have been as good as they were if I hadn't learned how to field produce.

Well, what was that one that you did with Kronberg?

Oh, that was a web series.

That was a little bit of a during The Daily Show or after?

Before, I think, before before and during.

And what was the angle on that web series?

I had seen a New York Times wedding video that looked so silly and I just parodied it.

And it was during wedding season and we didn't say that it was a parody, so people thought it was real and so it went viral.

Yeah.

Did you get in trouble?

Yeah, they sent me a cease and desist letter.

So we had to put like a parody.

But to me, it was so clear that it was a parody.

Yeah.

And people just, I always overestimate people, I think.

Oh, yeah.

People are dumb.

Yeah, I didn't realize.

Even smart people are dumb.

It's kind of amazing.

Some of the smaller people.

I think we all got the memo now in this current moment.

I'm not doing that anymore.

But I think what happens is that you can't, you know, you're dumb only because you can't adapt.

Like, you know, there's a lot of things that make people dumb.

It's like, you know, shifting to Gmail.

And then you expect like, you know, old people.

I haven't done that.

Yeah.

I have a young.

So like, and then just like I know from having a podcast for years and just having people after a certain age, like, I don't understand.

Where do I get it?

I'm like, on your phone.

It's two clicks.

Did you ever have to go through an old person's phone?

Your mom's.

It's fine.

It's okay.

But like my mom's boyfriend before he lost his mind, like he wanted me to do something on his phone.

And he literally had, I think, a thousand open windows.

Right.

I actually have that.

I actually have that.

I didn't, I don't even, I have a thousand open.

That's me.

Do you i have to i can't i don't like when my email has numbers right i understand that it's annoying

i looked at michaela watkins's phone one time and she had like 1100 unopened emails i'm like what are you doing you can't have that number there right i don't know so what were the shows that you did on your own i can't remember there's one for adult swim yeah Yeah, it was called Soft Focus.

And I just feel so lucky that we were given the opportunity to make that show.

Yeah.

I wish that those opportunities still existed.

Don't they exist?

And

I guess you can make them self-generating.

It just seems like everybody's just starting their own show business.

Everyone's doing their own thing.

You have to, yeah.

Yeah.

And what was that show?

It was

a couple specials.

We were about to shoot a third one, and then the pandemic happened, but it ran.

I did two.

I did it in like 2018 and 2019.

Wow, the pandemic really fucked you on so many levels.

No, I mean, it

turned me into a mom.

Exactly.

It's great.

No.

And wasn't there one other one?

Yeah, and then I had a true crime show, which is crazy how that.

Are you a true crime freak?

No, I was making fun of true crime on Conan.

I was making fun of true crime.

And this industry is such a cash cow that they were like, let's, you know, like, do you want to do a show?

And so I did like a little kind of development deal with AMC Plus, and then I got a show off of it.

How many episodes did you do?

Two seasons.

Oh, that's pretty good.

Of how many?

Only 12 episodes.

Okay.

Six episodes each season.

And it was intense.

It was really intense.

And I'm very proud of what we were able to do.

Yeah.

And we infused some comedy into it, which I didn't think would be possible.

But

yeah, I mean, it was.

I don't know.

It was cool to...

There was one specific episode about this girl whose grandmother was murdered.

Yeah.

Well, I should say allegedly, sorry,

allegedly murdered by this guy.

And then the guy checked himself into a mental hospital, called like a billboard defense attorney, who convinced the jury that this woman had choked on his dick.

And then he got away with it.

And then not only was she murdered,

She was made a punchline in the media because of course, you know, granny chokes on dick.

Yeah.

so,

and being a comedian, you're handed a story like this and people think it's easy.

It's actually the most complicated story to make funny because it's like, you don't want to do dick jokes.

You know what I mean?

And you're like, how do I balance it?

What do I,

what do I do?

And so

I'm very proud of that episode because we were able to make a show that really

reframed the narrative.

I was worried about,

will this episode be an ad for the defense attorney to get him more work if we do it wrong?

And we got this grizzled veteran cop on and she was like, everybody knows when it's like a sex crime, like you just blame the victim.

That's what you do.

It's called like the rough sex defense or the consent defense.

And it was really cool.

And then I ended up talking to the defense attorney.

He sat down with me.

And I don't know how you prepare for interviews.

I want to ask you next.

I'm curious as to your process.

But I really, a lot of times with interviews like that, I'll do a lot of research and I ask ask questions and then a lot of it is like improvised.

And this, I was just trying to talk to him, but in this moment, I just was like, you know, have you ever sucked a dick?

And he was like, well, I don't know if I can answer that.

And I was like, sorry to slut shame you.

That's the defense attorney's job.

And I really just kind of like got hit home like what the kind of point was about.

We also had a medical examiner on to say that like you can't die that way.

Like that's not an actual

way to die.

And also in the UK,

consent offenses or rough sex offenses are illegal.

You can't present them in court

because they're not, they're just not, you can't like accidentally kill someone during sex in that way.

And so,

but they're still legal in the U.S.

So it did feel like a little bit that like kind of, without sounding like self-righteous, like that advocacy comedy where you're like, hey, if we just knew that these were defenses, maybe we could outlaw them in states where they're just used to exonerate abusers or give them murderers or give them reduced sentences.

Yeah.

So that's good.

That's a great piece of work.

I know.

And then the show, and then, yeah, we just ran for two seasons.

And I think.

Is that episode available somewhere?

Yeah.

I mean, I can send it to you.

Yeah.

What about for the people that are listening?

For the people that are listening, I can send it to you too.

For the two guys jerking off to my list, I can send it to you too.

That's not my audience.

But

it's a lot of concerned, aggravated women.

Oh, I love you.

I love women.

So that was one of those things where the style of

the daily show

interrogation, because you got to have some

balls

to do that.

Yes.

And know you're going to do it.

So the type of interviewing I do is not comparable to that.

How do you prepare for your interviews?

Well, for somebody like you, who I know for a long time,

I hope that we can,

you know, connect as people.

Like

when I do these, my only hope is that I'll figure out in my mind some portal in, you know, that will either become thematic or not, but at the very least, develop a genuine rapport that then can just move on its own.

You know, I try to know as much as I can about people,

but a lot of times it's not about what they're promoting or anything else.

It's whether

a real conversation happens.

So that's all I'm looking for.

I don't have questions generally unless it's somebody with a huge

amount of work that they've done out of respect.

You don't want to diminish someone who's a master of something.

But generally, I have to like the person.

And then, you know, hopefully it turns into a conversation.

Right.

That's my thing.

But for doing that kind of stuff, you have to know, like, I'm going to do this question now.

Yeah, you have to know.

You have to

know how to.

I mean, at the daily show, we basically would go out with a script beforehand.

And you,

a good example was there was a really tricky piece.

Sam B was a correspondent.

Yeah.

And it was on the fast food worker strikes.

Right.

All my pieces were pretty heavy.

I got there at a point when John was just like, whatever you want to, whatever you care about, we can find a way to make it funny.

And that has been my mantra ever since.

I really do feel like you can kind of make anything funny.

And so we wanted to do a piece about like income inequality and fast food worker strikes.

But it's like in four minutes, four and a half minutes, you're trying to like make a case against like free market capitalism.

Right.

That's actually funny.

How do you do that?

Yeah.

And we found this guy, this hedge fund guy, who had been on the show.

I think he predicted or he helped predict like the 2008 crash.

So he really liked John.

And we asked him a series of questions.

And one of the questions that Sam asked was, Do you believe markets determine wages?

Yes.

Okay.

Question, next question.

Describe to me the type of person worth $2 an an hour.

And he said, I don't know what the PC term for R word is.

And he said that on camera.

And we aired it.

And that then became the crux of the piece.

Like, it wasn't haha funny, but it was like, this is what we're talking about.

This is why we don't want to live in a society where like your people are what they're worth.

You know, like you're having disabled people worth $2 an hour.

Do you want to live in that type of society?

Because that's what free market capitalism with no regulations is.

I'm not like a Marxist.

i'm just saying that's kind of that was how we were able to that's great you know articulate a point of view using either humor or just kind of hypocrisy or whatever you want to call it what when you in terms of activism which i think you do was this something you grew up with

um

hmm like when you were in college you know what was your disposition yeah i mean i was an anthropology major i mean i got into comedy the the least funny way possible i wrote a paper about it.

It's so lame.

It's so lame.

I wrote like my.

Could you send that over to me, too?

Yeah.

No, I wrote a paper about comedy, and that's how I got into it.

It was like a, it was,

I, I have a book out.

What was the thesis?

So I wrote about this in a book.

So I have it.

So it is out there if people are.

It's a chapter in a book of yours.

What's a book called?

Not Funny.

Okay.

I also, like, I know that, okay.

I titled the book not funny because I wanted to get a foreword by someone named Bill Cosby who wasn't Bill Cosby.

Yeah.

I thought that that would be funny.

Yeah.

And I found someone and he wrote a foreword.

Yeah.

And

who was that guy?

Just a random guy named Bill Cosby.

I had to go, I had closed my Facebook account.

I had to reopen Facebook.

and friend a bunch of Bill Cosby's to find.

It took me so long to track down somebody who would do this.

His name was William Cosby.

Okay.

Anyway, my editor rightfully nicks the idea.

Oh, after all that work.

Yeah, it's fine.

But so I think Not Funny for By Bo Cosby really sells that the book is funny.

Yeah.

But just not funny is a title.

I'm into it, but

it feels more like diatribe than I wanted.

It was just essays?

Yeah.

And

your paper.

It wasn't the paper.

So the paper.

There is an essay about how I wrote this paper.

I did like an ethnography of Improv Olympic.

That's how I got into comedy.

I went to Improv Olympic.

I showed up.

Did you define ethnography for me?

It's like a year re, it was like a research paper in a community.

Okay.

So in anthropology, and I talk about this, and that,

but

like a lot of anthropology is like the ethnographic method where you study a community.

Yeah.

And a lot of it is really problematic because you had like white people going over to foreign countries to study these indigenous populations and then like misinterpreting all their customs.

With a colonial point of view.

Right.

Yeah.

So I wanted to study a community that I could actually assimilate into.

Okay.

And I was living downtown and this comedy theater was around the corner from me.

I originally wanted to study

women and stand-up in Chicago.

And at the time I was told there weren't that many.

And there were, they just weren't like in the north side.

There was like Patty Vasquez.

Yeah.

But there weren't a lot of women doing stand-up comedy.

at the time.

And so somebody said you should check out Improv Olympic.

Yeah.

And I went there and I just fell in love and that was like my gate.

I just wanted to see classes.

I was like, can I pay for a month pass to see classes?

And Katie Rich, who went on to, I don't know if you've ever talked to her, but she's hilarious and wrote for SNL.

She was working the door and she's like, well, if you pay for, if you sign up for classes, you can see all the shows for free.

It's a cult.

And I started to do that and I was sold.

And so I kind of fell in love with this community where you could be your own writer, director, performer.

Have you ever done improv?

No, not on that level.

Thinking of you doing improv makes me laugh.

Yeah.

I've been dragged into improv situations.

Yeah, no.

But I've not done it

as a collaborative form.

It also always, every time I've seen it in LA, it has lost its shine.

I don't know if it's because I've gotten older and I've been doing comedy, but when I started doing it in Chicago, it was before improv was a punchline.

It was before the office and all these shows that utilized improv kind of went mainstream.

And I just, I couldn't believe this was a thing that people did.

Well, I think it's like, you know, from talking to hundreds of people that, you know, a way into

comedy as

a writer, performer, producer, director, that, you know, stand-up was kind of sidelined years ago.

I mean, I think that you get a more well-rounded person and a less socially aggravated person

out of collaborative theater work.

Yeah.

And the type of people that gravitate to it, in my experience, are a little better off as humans

than the gypsies that are, or I guess you can't use that word anymore,

kind of wandering solo weirdos that are comics.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, the paper ended up getting me.

So I let somebody publish the paper on a comedy website.

It circulated and Sharna Halpern like basically blacklisted me from I.O.

Oh my God.

And that's how I got into stand-up.

She blacklisted you from IIO.

Because the paper was...

From I.O.

Yeah.

Okay.

Because the paper was, it was so benign.

It was so tame.

But I I was looking at improv.

This is going to sound so wonky, but improv was kind of like a lens to view social inequality.

And so I was looking at improv Olympic and I'm like,

this place has made such great strides in the past 20 or 30 years.

Tina Fey and Amy Poehler are hosting SNL.

Predominantly white middle-class women are achieving equality in this community, but everybody else is lagging behind.

It's not because improvisers are racist.

It's because there are like systemic issues in our larger political economy.

Everything we're talking about now, I mean, I really saw it there.

At the time that I was there, there were like I had friends who were non-white performers who kind of got pushed out of the mainstream and had their own imprev groups.

It was like, it felt like separate but equal,

which isn't equal.

In Chicago at the time, you had like all, and like a couple all-black imprev groups, like Latino, all-Asian imprev groups.

People were just like finding separate communities because the mainstream was so hostile to them.

Interesting, yeah.

So I wrote about that.

I also wrote about how like the, it's a bar, it's a work environment, it's an educational center, lines are blurred.

When I was an intern, I was, I had so many experiences and I wrote about the most benign one, which was just like,

it was so benign.

I just thought it was funny.

I was reading about sexual harassment and like one of the male teachers came up and like rubbed my lower back and like told me my hair looked really cute or something.

And I was like, that was what I wrote about.

The actual, what actually happened was crazy, not to me, but just in general.

It was a crazy environment.

And so, but just because I said, hey, this environment could be sexually charged and that's not really helpful or conducive to people trying to be there to learn,

people got very upset.

And

I had a show that was canceled.

I got kicked off my Herald team.

Really?

And then the reader wanted to do a story about it.

And I was so ashamed and embarrassed.

I just was like, I don't want to make waves that way.

How did the other improvisers take it?

Were you like ostracized at all levels?

Well, the only people that really came down on me were like two of my my favorite female teachers.

I wrote about it.

I've written about it.

Because

what you were saying from an outsider or even an insider point of view in the context that you were saying it implied something about them that they didn't think was true and may not have been true.

I used all pseudonyms.

I didn't say anything about them.

I think one of them apologized to me years later.

I think I just like, I'm this random

20-something early, like 20-year-old coming into this community kind of saying, like, this is the stuff that happens.

Like, nobody wants that stuff.

I think if you hadn't let them publish it, it would have just been a paper you wrote for school.

Yeah, I know.

I didn't let them publish it.

It was just a comedy blog.

It was like new.

Blogs were new.

Yeah, yeah.

It was just, and then the interesting thing is that like in 2015, all this stuff came to light.

Like all the sexual harassment there, like all these people, someone complained about sexual harassment and Sharon was like, I'll fix it by offering you free classes.

And all this stuff came to light.

And I was like, they knew about this.

I mean,

you got them

where it hurt.

It's not there.

It's not any organization's fault.

It's just

it happens.

And it's like, how do we, no one's perfect, but it's just like these places are so special when they're, I mean, there's, I don't know, I really, it felt like a magical place and it's such a bummer that people can't take constructive criticism.

They should grow up.

I just, you know, I wasn't saying anything really controversial.

It would have been cool if they were like, okay, we read this.

Maybe students, maybe teachers shouldn't try to fuck students.

I don't know.

That's all.

You know, like, maybe we should just kind of like be careful about that.

Yeah.

And so they threw you out and then made you a stand-up.

And that made me a stand-up.

And you stayed in Chicago.

I went to New York.

I had a play that I wrote that was critically panned in Chicago, and then I took it to New York and I did really well.

And then I was like, I'm moving to New York.

What was that one called?

It was a satire on American Girl dolls as refugees.

It was this, and I had my cast for all these incredibly talented women in Chicago, and it was such a cool experience, and it really taught me about satire.

But it's interesting that coming out of anthropology, that, you know,

that one paper in terms of, you know, understanding your place as a woman and as a creative person, you know, that's always been the active part of your creativity.

I guess so.

I guess so.

That's good.

At least, you know, you've stuck by it.

Yeah.

You have a voice.

Yeah, my mom used to say, you have a voice.

People might not listen, but you have a voice.

Yeah.

And so when did you move out here?

I had no idea you lived here.

I was going back and forth.

And then the pandemic, I was like, you know what?

LA doesn't

look so bad.

Yeah, New York.

People, my New York friends were really like every, I love New York.

I will always be a New Yorker in my heart.

And I'm trying, I try to get back there as much as I can.

But I do think during the pandemic, there was a little bit like, we're going to stay stay here.

And I'm like, do you understand when a system's under stress, same thing with the LA fires?

If you have the privilege and ability to get out, to take, put less stress on the system, do it.

Right.

Do it.

That helps everybody.

Don't bash people for leaving.

You know, I mean, I don't know.

That's my point of view.

No, I get it.

Wait, did you grow up in New York?

Yeah, from New Jersey.

Jersey?

Yeah, like all comedians.

Yeah.

What part of Jersey?

Haddenfield,

next to Philly and Cherry Hoe.

Oh, down there.

Down there.

Yeah.

You're from New Jersey, too?

Well, I was born there.

My family's from there.

You know, I didn't spend

time.

I was born in Jersey City.

Okay.

But my, like, I think most of it was, you know, Pompton Lakes.

I think it's Bergen County.

You know,

Wayne, we lived in Wayne, New Jersey.

It's definitely about 45 miles outside the city, not by Philly.

I got family down the shore and shit.

I've said it many times.

I'm genetically Jersey.

So you just came out here for the pandemic.

I pandemicked.

Yeah, no, I was also working.

I worked on Roseanne

for a day.

Yeah.

Then she sent out that tweet.

That was the end of that gig.

No, it became the Connors, and I worked on that for a year.

And then

I work with Sasha.

I've been working with Sasha out here.

Oh, that's right.

You did the second Bora movie?

What's that like?

How does that process work?

Sasha.

What did you do on the...

So I guess the skill set around produce segments on the daily show again kind of helped you.

Yeah, yeah.

I knew how to pitch for

what he does.

Yeah.

Because I make, because I did that.

I produce those things.

Yeah.

I think from my adult swim show, I think he had seen some of my segments, and that's how I got in his orbit.

And then, yeah, Bora 2 was a dream.

I mean, because for years I've wanted to make kind of...

shocky, feminist, creepy comedy, and there wasn't the platform, and then Sasha was totally game.

Yeah, I did a cartoon with Maria.

What's her name?

Bakalova.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She was so good.

I don't know.

Did you see that movie?

Yeah, yeah.

So The Period Dance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was.

That's from the mind of Jennifer Edmond.

There was more to it that got cut for time, but Maria's literally doing somersaults

with like a bloody underwear all around Sasha.

And whenever I feel sad, I just think about that and laugh.

It's the funniest.

I feel so lucky that I got to be part of that.

It's like the dream.

I mean, especially as like a female comic of my generation, but it's like, we never, you never talked about period stuff.

You knew not to.

It wasn't a thing.

Yeah.

And then to really just be able to go there in this way.

To end all the conversation.

And it's also like, no one can tell you that.

I love the type of comedy when no one can tell you something's inappropriate because you're like, but these are natural and like half the population goes through with this.

So what's inappropriate about it?

You know, like, and you kind of so you're responding to the stereotyping of

female comics is, oh, you just talk about the period.

That kind of thing.

I think that's what I'm responding to.

Yeah.

So, like, it's fun when you can find a way to go so far over the top that, you know, you end the conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So where, now tell me, like, because we'll probably air this

when you're heading over there to Scotland,

the arc of this thing,

did you find that you were able to counter your feelings of grief with comedy all the way through?

I'm figuring it out.

It's really fun.

Like when I get,

I don't know if this will be in the final show, but whenever I feel sad, because for, I think the show is better when I connect to the material.

Yeah.

But then,

and, but then I don't know how you feel, but it, it feels like if I feel sad, I don't want to cry because that feels like hacky or it feels like fraudulent or something.

It feels like,

I don't know.

I have a hang-up about that.

Well, can you do it on purpose?

Well, here's the thing.

When I think about my mom, I can cry at the drop of a hat.

Right.

And then if anyone's like, oh, she's being what, I'm like, look at my IMDb page.

Clearly, I'm not an actor.

You know, clearly I can't cry on command.

Right.

No, no, I don't think there's, I, I don't know.

I don't know why I have that.

Like, I feel like it's disingenuous or something because I've seen so many shows where people cry.

Yeah.

And it just, there's just something about it.

So you should open the show with that, like a sort of like a trigger warning that there may be real tears.

So, I just did the Soho Theater, and they have all these trigger warrants in London.

Yeah, the triggers now,

it's a different time.

I don't think we should have, I feel, I don't think that we should need trigger warnings for shows.

I think we do people a disservice when they're doing a show.

No, no, I don't think so either, but I think it's a joke

to sort of counter your fear of crying as being misinterpreted as doing something manipulative, right?

Right.

Well, I have other jokes.

Um, no, I mean,

so whenever I get sad, now I have a prop.

Like right now, I have a prop flashlight that I just shine on like just a random man to just kind of like take me out of my

feeling like British men are so repressed that to

be like, no, you're crying.

It just kind of gets me out of it.

That's funny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I've done it a couple of times.

I don't know if that'll stay in, but it's a good, it's just a good clutch to have.

Now, where are you on this sort of like, because I feel

that

do you feel that you were able,

like you're obviously continuing with what you're doing, but do you feel that, was there ever a point where the writing was cutting into what you thought was stand-up time?

Ask that again.

I mean, like, a lot, because like, you know, I'm a stand-up, you know,

you know, all the way through and through.

So like anything else, even when I started the podcast, I'm like, yeah, but I'm a stand-up.

You know, like there was always this sort of, even if it was making me money, which it wasn't, but when people began to know me as this guy, which gives me- Podcaster Mark Marin.

Well, well, a broader personality that I wasn't, you know, and was freeing for me.

But I always see myself as a stand-up, no matter what.

And,

you know, that, and I come from sort of this weird warrior mindset about it.

And I just wondered, do you feel like you've been able to put as much time into stand-up as you want?

Because I'm a mom?

Just in general?

Because you had all these writing jobs.

No, I haven't.

No, I haven't.

Especially now.

I mean, being in L.A., it's so much harder to do stand-up.

It is hard when you have a kid like I'm going to be away from him for three weeks, which I haven't been, which feels weird because he's growing so fast.

Yeah.

My husband's a musician, and

he also, as a performer, understands.

He's like, because I was like, can you guys come over?

And he's like, you're not going to want us there.

You just focus on your, I'm doing a show every day at like 4 p.m.

He's like, just focus on your work.

Focus on the show.

Yeah.

And he's a solid dude.

Yeah, he's great.

Good.

And

it'll be good.

It'll be good for you.

Yeah.

But I mean, stand-up's so labor-intensive.

So I know that when I'm in New York and I'm doing like three shows a night, I'm funny.

Yeah.

And when I'm not, like the last time I performed at the cellar, I hadn't performed there for a month.

I haven't performed in like like a couple weeks.

And I just had a rusty set in front of Esti.

Isn't that funny that it all comes down to Esti?

It all comes down to Esti.

But yeah, I mean, it's I like I'm I kind of I dip into the comedy store a little bit out here, but it's just if I'm not doing stand-up

frequently, I get rusty really quickly.

Yeah, you lose that connection, the audience connection.

Like if you're it's like a gym.

Like if that's open, if you're doing that two, three nights a week, so it stays open.

If you go like three weeks, you're like that part, you have to reintroduce yourself to it.

Yeah, it's crazy how labor-intensive it is.

Yeah, it takes time, but it's good that you're working on

like one piece.

Yeah.

I think Sarah handled that very well, to do the one piece.

And like, and that framework is, you know, you can go anywhere with it with grief because you can go back to all of your experiences with your mother and then to where it becomes kind of daunting and horrible.

I don't talk about, I mean, I probably could put more of her in it.

I just, the experience of losing her, it all happened in my third trimester.

Yeah.

Oh, boy.

So I was like 26, seven weeks pregnant.

I was like, la-dee-da.

And then, like, the day before I taped the stand-up special, I found out that she was sick.

And I didn't know how sick because nobody was telling me anything.

And then she, and then I was also shooting the true crime show at the same time.

So I was just running around shooting this show about like murder.

And then she, yeah, she died like five or six weeks later.

I had to fly back to say goodbye to her at 34 weeks pregnant.

But I went.

And that kind of hung over your birth?

Yeah.

Well, the thing is, I went, I didn't, I did not want kids.

I still am ambivalent about kids, but I love my one kid.

And it was something I didn't want.

And my husband really wanted it.

Yeah.

And I, and like, I was just like, you know what?

You can go ahead and try.

I've never been pregnant.

Probably won't get pregnant this time.

And it happened like right away.

And I feel so lucky about that because my mom got to see me be pregnant.

Right.

And he has also been such an antidote to grief.

Right.

But I was a mess and there was there was comedy to be had in being like such a mess.

I was such a mess.

Yeah.

And I talk about it in the show.

Like I just, I was getting noseblueds all the time.

I was a total mess.

Wow.

It's like the most natural antidote to grief.

Yeah.

Is birth and life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it just, it like life comes at you fast.

It just all hit at the same time.

And you don't explore, you know, your childhood with your mother at all in the show?

No, she was great.

I mean she was she oh there's so much that I could tell you but she was very private.

Yeah.

Which also makes me that like when you ask if I'm nervous it's like yeah I'm always nervous being on a podcast.

Yeah.

But she was very private and

there was so much of there was stuff she never told me her whole life.

You don't never know your parents.

It's weird.

I talk about that now.

It's just like you don't you don't know.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

You have this specific kind of like narrow spectrum of experience, and they had lives.

You know, they had secret lives.

They had lives as adults.

They had lives before you.

And it's like, you just don't know.

Both of my parents are still kind of hanging in there.

My dad's losing his mind and my mom's very old.

And you just start to realize, like, I don't fucking, and my dad was kind of a monster.

So like now, like, I do a bit about that, about when they get dementia, dementia.

And

I saw that that you're like hold on to that moment when they're well there's that but there's the new one is it's like you know the filter goes and the statute of limitations on what they should and shouldn't tell their kid that goes away so if you've got unresolved issues or questions you know just reach into that bingo cage of memories and see if it's so intense

see if you can find the missing piece that'll make you a whole person

So, I mean, I had the opposite experience because when she died, she was so lucid.

Like, I could see in her face her fear knowing that she was going to die.

And that haunts me till this day yeah but to have the opposite to see them kind of disappear while their body's still alive feels haunting in a whole another well they're just spitting out information that becomes very poetic and interesting if you can let go of who they were you know it

and if who they were was not the best person well yeah yeah it's interesting what remains what it what you know the stubbornness and the belligerence and the anger like a lot of that stuff that that's holding on more than what he had for breakfast you know like the these core things.

To me, it's all, you know, after losing somebody I love tragically and quickly, you know, the framework of how I see life, it definitely shifted.

And I imagine being haunted by your mom's fear and vulnerability, it's such a common human experience.

It's a very odd thing to generalize,

you know, innately to make the decision to generalize it.

But it's like, there's nothing more common than that.

Yeah.

It's wild.

Yeah, no, no, and I know it is crazy how grief illiterate we are, but a lot of us are, I mean, a lot of comics are talking about it.

There's like the cliché in Edinburgh of like the Dead Dad show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's also maybe why part of my reticence to cry or to talk about, I'm just like, I don't want to be part of the cliche, like, I don't want to be, you know, grouped into that kind of thing, but it is, it doesn't matter.

But also, it's like it's a one-show thing.

And whether there's a group, like, that's a much better grouping than a lot of the other types of grouping there are.

That's true.

I mean, at least you're doing something

communally viable and helpful.

And you're actually, you know, contributing to people feeling less alone in these unavoidable feelings that are going to happen to everybody.

Like I can, you know, like it's okay to be a grief hack because it's not like it's.

There's so many other hacks, you know?

Yeah, the worst kinds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

That is the hardest part when I've been doing the show, people coming up after and like kind of unloading their minds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I'm sure you get that.

Well, yeah, you know,

but even what I get out of that is like, oh, it's everybody.

Yeah.

It's really

one of the great

equalizers.

Totally.

Yeah.

Well, good luck with the show.

Thank you.

It was nice talking to you.

You too.

Okay, Jenny.

You too.

Okay.

We can do another take.

Do that again.

It's great talking to you.

Wait, wait, now I'm directing.

Okay, do that again.

Just do that again.

It was really great talking to you.

You too.

Oh, thanks.

Yeah.

I didn't know how it would all pan out, but we did it.

Thank you for having me.

I really appreciate it.

I was happy to talk to her.

It's been a while.

Again, I should mention she'll be at the Edinburgh Fringe August 8th through 24th with her new show, Jenna Friedman, Motherfucker.

Get tickets at jennafriedman.com.

Hang out for a minute, folks.

Hey, people, Jenna was on a live episode of WTF from the early years.

And if you have a WTF Plus subscription, you can hear all of those live episodes, like this one with Bill Hayter and Fred Armison.

You guys seem so well-adjusted.

When I was a kid, the, you know, the mythic SNL thing was like, that place is fucked up.

It's nothing but crazy over there.

And not anymore.

It's sweet.

It's very sweet.

Yeah, everybody's nice.

Wait, that seemed like a talking point.

Yeah.

No, I mean, it's just like...

Tell them it's sweet.

No, it's just very...

No, it is.

It's very nice.

Like, people come and they want to, like, sometimes hosts come or bands and they're like ready to party.

Yeah, it's quiet time.

Yeah, it's all quiet.

There's mats on the floor.

We're taking naps.

How often do you have to deal with Lorne?

Like,

all the time.

He's awesome.

He really really is.

He's hands-on.

He's very hands-on.

And he's very...

Can I share with you how paranoid I am?

Yeah.

I had one meeting with him.

When?

Like 95 or something.

And it didn't go well.

And I think he brought me in was when Luna was starting downtown.

And like the first thing he said to me was, I don't know what you think you're doing down there below 14th Street, but it doesn't matter.

It didn't matter, did it?

No, it didn't matter at all.

But this is how fucking nuts I am and how self-important I am.

It's like the Wall Street Journal wrote up this show, and

I told the interviewer who was asking me about Luna and that you guys were coming on, and then I told him about the SNL story, and I told him that story because he was asking me about alternative comedy, and I called him back.

And I said, look,

could you pull the Learn thing out?

Because I don't want him to see it and then say, you know, then keep Fred and Bill late.

Like, I thought Lauren Michaels was going to see that story and say, you guys aren't going.

You're not going to the fabled WTF.

Wow.

That's crazy.

That's a good move, though.

That is.

I mean, that is a good move.

Is it the right thing?

You did do the right thing.

That's episode 164 live in Brooklyn.

You can hear that ad-free with a WTF Plus subscription.

To sign up, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Here's kind of a messy rendition of a Velvet Underground deep cut.

Boomer lives, monkey on the fonda, cat angels everywhere.