Episode 1650 - Seth Meyers

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Lock the gates.

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, Asotans?

Yeah.

I threw a new one in there.

Got a request.

I got a request as we're heading into the home stretch.

How are you?

This is Mark Maron.

I am Mark Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF.

Welcome to it.

You know, I used to get lists of those things, just full lists of ideas for the opening names.

And then, like, you know, I could get preoccupied with, you know, which ones I should use.

There'd be dozens of them.

And then you just land on a few.

How's it going?

What's happening in there?

Out there, in there?

What's happening out there?

What's up with you people?

Are you okay?

Is your head all right?

Is everything checking out fine?

Are you holding up?

It's been very overwhelming, the outpouring of

kind of appreciation for the show.

And

I'm moved and grateful.

Edgy, though.

A bit edgy.

I was talking to my buddy Jerry last night, and I was trying to understand

my feelings.

And

I don't know if there's such a thing as angry gratitude.

or aggravated gratitude.

I'm still wrestling with a certain amount of my feelings.

That

I think it takes a big

person

to achieve a certain amount of things in their life that are, you know, pretty great or get to a place where they finally kind of made it through the fire into

their own sort of level of success or at least having a place in their world.

And I think it takes a certain amount of humility

to just

accept that and be grateful for it and look at the work you've done and think you've done a good job at whatever you do.

But there's sort of a level of humility that has to occur so you don't get to that place and look back at all the people that stood in your way on purpose and just inform that gratitude with,

you can go fuck yourself.

See, see what I did.

Because quite honestly, I think the mature way to look at that is that at those different junctures in my life, whatever my life has been and whatever my rejections were or whatever my struggles were or however many people stood in the way of me getting to where I thought I deserved or what I wanted to believe that I was capable of, I might not have been at that time.

I might not have been, you know, as good as I thought or as

ready as I thought.

And over time, I've definitely accepted that.

And a lot of my resentments or petty aggravations about the struggle or the course of my life, the one it took,

you know, was somehow unjust.

Yeah, I was out of my mind.

I was a fucking being of chaos and fury that eventually had to be

beaten down and humbled by the great wheel of life until I I kind of like relaxed into me.

So I am grateful.

That's what I and I'm going to keep saying that because I should and I should appreciate that.

So I don't just kind of keep,

you know, just steamrolling and plowing through life without appreciating what is happening.

It's kind of upsetting that I get to this point in my life where, you know, I can level off a little bit and kind of, you know, look at what I've achieved and feel pretty good about it, just, you know, coinciding with the end of America.

It's hard not to take that personally.

So look, folks, Seth Meyers is on the show.

He was actually on the show back in 2016.

That's episode 731.

He's not in Los Angeles much.

So

it was good to have him back, catch up.

He's still hosting late night with Seth Myers.

He's also got two podcasts out now, one with his brother Josh and one with the guys from the Lonely Island.

You're welcome, fellas.

So

I'm kidding.

I'm not in that zone.

I don't think I invented anything.

But there

has been something that's been, something that came up the other night that was kind of surprising.

A little bit of a retreat, you know, back into

mystical thinking

that was kind of...

I don't really like to go there, you know, because I was there, but something triggered it.

But I'll talk about it in a minute the documentary are we good

is screening at the tribeca film festival in new york city you can come see it this saturday june 14th at 5 p.m that's at the okx theater on chambers street i'll be doing a q a with uh tracy lets after the screening that's funny tracy uh you know some people wonder over the course of this podcast

You know, because of the nature of my conversations, it seems like, hey, those guys should be friends.

You know, how many people have I become friends with after really talking to them?

Well, I have a lot more acquaintances and people that I know and know me, but Tracy actually became a friend.

And I was very focused on that, on becoming friends with Tracy.

And he is a friend.

Okay, so there's another screening as well on June 15th at 5.30.

It's screening at the Village East on 2nd Avenue and 12th Street.

And also, Stick is on TV.

I'm on TV in a show with Owen Wilson, and people seem to be be enjoying it.

Why wouldn't they?

A new episode of Stick premieres this Wednesday.

I haven't seen it yet.

I've only seen as many as you've seen, if you've been watching.

But it seems to be a fairly emotionally uplifting and satisfying show, and I'm happy to be a part of it.

So, yeah.

A couple of things are going on in terms of the life.

I'm kind of adjusting to realizing that

big changes are on the horizon.

You know, in my life, but in the world, things are certainly not looking good.

It's been pretty fucking awful out here in Los Angeles with this display of might and power with the new secret police that is ICE.

And it's been kind of awful, I would say, horrible and disconcerting.

And it's hard to know exactly what to do.

So I found myself kind of

trying to sort of integrate the ideas of the poem by, I'm not sure sure how to pronounce his name, Pastor Martin Neymoller,

the poem many of you have probably sort of come in contact with, First They Came.

And,

you know, in terms of the message of

that poem and what it means to be

a real citizen

in the fight for democracy.

A couple of things are coming into my mind around this.

And I'll like, well, I don't know if you know the poem, but I'm going to, I've been rewriting it a little bit, and I'll try to give you the sense of it.

So here's the poem with my additions.

First, they came for the communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a communist, and I was on my phone.

Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist and I was on my phone.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist and I was, again, on my phone.

Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew and I, you know, I was still on my phone.

And then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me and they took my phone.

See, I'm just kind of working with it a little bit.

And I think you can

change communists to immigrants.

Yeah,

that's a little side project that I'm working on.

I did Andy Richter's podcast.

I don't know when he's going to put it up, but he got me talking about the comedy store and about cocaine and about Sam Kennison.

And I guess that popped open that portal.

And I did sort of kind of like retreat, not retreat, but I found myself engaged in a bit of old Mark Maron style.

mystical thinking because many of you have heard the story of that period in my life where I was a doorman at the comedy store and hanging out with Kennison and that entourage and living at the house that Mitzi Shore owned up behind the comedy store and just living a life of, I don't even know what you would call it.

It was certainly off the grid.

It was certainly comedy store specific.

It was certainly a very

jacked up, dark period in a lot of ways, but mostly because of my brain, because I had coked myself into a psychosis.

That took me quite a long time to fully shake

in the late 80s.

And that was the sort of beginning of my relationship with sobriety that was on and off for years after that.

But in my book, The Jerusalem Syndrome, you know, I kind of spent a lot of time on that chapter, the Hollywood chapter, and what was happening in my mind in terms of psychosis, and then also my own sort of paranoid fantasies and my own sort of it was all informed by whatever intelligence I had at that time.

But here, but here's the thing is that

during the psychotic time at the comedy store, I started to sort of realize or believe that it was a fairly dark castle of a strange type of,

you know, mystical, dark energy.

And it's not something that people didn't notice back in the day.

It's kind of been exercised to some degree just by proficiency.

But there was just this concept I had about the role that Mitzi played in the big picture.

And that I had become obsessed with the building across the street, which is the Sunset Towers, which is now a pretty sweet hotel.

It's an old deco structure.

At the time I was at the store, it was being gutted and renovated.

And there's this sort of altar structure on the top.

And I'd become sort of obsessed and believed in these some sort of apocalyptic fantasies about the end of the world beginning with some sort of sacrifice that was going to take place on that altar by who I didn't know, but I knew there were dark forces coming.

And I knew that Sam was a representation, Kennison, of those dark forces.

And I believe he was.

I re-listened to some of his bits, two of which are some of my favorite comedy bits in the world, but many of them wrong-minded.

And he was really, he was a megalomaniacal person, not unlike Trump or other megalomaniacal people.

And, you know, he was a powerful force being an ex-preacher.

And he had kind of broken my brain.

And the comedy store just unfolded into this castle of

dark wizardry.

And I felt that, you know, comics at that time were somehow, you know, I didn't quite understand how, but there was a good and evil thing working in that somehow comics played a part in the oncoming apocalypse because I was there at the comedy store.

And this was going on in 1987.

And I had this whole apocalyptic sort of

mythos that was being generated by my brain.

And it wasn't, you know, clear all of it, but I knew that there were certain parts that the comedy store was going to be involved in it and that Hollywood was involved in it and that there was something about the shifting of reality.

And that was, I kind of documented it in that book, you know, and it was a real kind of paranoid, psychotic vision.

that I had.

And, you know, it eventually forced me to run away from Hollywood fairly quickly, you know, give away everything that didn't fit in my car and just get out,

get out.

23 skidoo, baby.

And I was running from dark forces that I couldn't see.

And I went home and I renewed my passport because I was pretty sure I was going to have to go.

And, you know, and I tried to get sober the first time, which I did.

And I went back to Boston.

But the other day, I was thinking, well, look, you know, and I guess this is in light of the podcast ending and just kind of putting things together for myself.

And then, you know, realizing at some moment that there was a whole system at the store and at the comedy store, and we've discussed it many times on this show, that if you were in the system and you believed in the system, that's all you believed in, really, was Mitzi's system of becoming a comic and what you had to do in that building to get to that place to be a comic.

All that being said,

it's just interesting to me in the big picture of what's happening and what this medium has

unleashed is that, you know, me and Joe, Rogan, we're both in the system.

We are both products of the comedy store.

We are both the spawn of Mitzi's system.

Now, however you want to frame Mitzi Shore in the big picture, you know, I have personal sort of

opinions about her, but it was her decision.

She was the queen.

She was the decider.

And

at the time in the late 80s, when I was out of my mind on drugs, she took on a very kind of almost universal and powerful significance as a kind of a mystical presence.

Now, I'm not saying any of this is true, but all I know is that in this medium, which I helped popularize, and Joe also in that system,

has his certainly has his place in the world, but just there's the spectrum of approach and what we have both unleashed on the world through this, through this medium, but both of us being adepts of the Mitzi Shore system and lifelong members of the comedy store community.

So there you go, two ends of the spectrum of podcasting coming from the same source underneath the reign of the same woman in

a now truly apocalyptic landscape.

Hey, look, do with it what you will.

I'm just kind of thinking out loud.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Okay, so look, Seth Meyers,

look, obviously the host of Late Night with Seth Myers on NBC and Peacock.

His podcasts are Family Trips with the Myers Brothers and the Lonely Island and Seth Meyers podcast.

You can get those everywhere.

And now you can get me and him, me and Seth, talking right here, right now.

Here we go.

You were in Albuquerque, yeah.

You have family, right?

My wife's from, grew up there.

That's right.

She grew up there.

Yeah.

How long is he hanging out there?

We were there for the weekend.

So it was nice.

We only go

in December for the holidays.

Yeah.

And I've never been in May.

It's beautiful.

Maybe.

It's the best time to be.

It was gorgeous.

Oh, my God.

I got to get back.

How are you feeling, buddy?

I'm feeling all right.

What are you asking?

What are you doing out here?

I'm just out.

You know, I come come out like twice a year and try to do some LA press.

For the show?

Yeah.

I'm going to go and Kimmel.

For the Emmys?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a little shameful, isn't it?

No, it's show business.

It's show business.

But, you know, it's interesting.

I also love, I should say,

I love being out here for short pops of time.

We must have a lot of friends out here that you don't see all the time.

So many.

Yeah.

You know, one, I came up in Chicago and everybody came here and very few of us went to New York.

And then, you know, post-SNL,

I mean, for basically for 15 years, those are the only friends I made.

And everybody.

And they're all out here.

And they're still here.

Yeah, everybody came.

Well, that gives me hope because I was under the impression everybody was leaving.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I feel like I haven't paid that close attention, but certainly in the last six months, I would imagine.

People coming back to New York?

I feel like we've gotten a few people.

Not my closest friends, but definitely some

imports from LA.

Well, I think people realize, like, what do I got to be out there for?

Right.

You know, COVID ruined everybody with Zoom.

Yeah.

Well, I was gonna,

we were talking about, I have some something I want to pitch recently.

Yeah.

And I was looking at my schedule trying to figure out when you could get out here.

And then I realized, wait, nobody pitches.

Nobody, I don't, I don't even think people in LA want to have to come into the office to hear it.

Drive out to Culver City to HBO to pitch something.

It does feel foolish that we did it all in person for as long as we did.

I still like it, man.

This is nice.

I mean, we could be doing a podcast via Zoom, and this is so much fun.

I don't do them.

Yeah, I know.

I like that.

But

I went to see a psychiatrist because I figured it was time.

Was their first line to you, what took you so long?

Well, no, I've been to them,

but at this stage in my life, there was something

nagging me, and I wanted to get a psychiatric evaluation by a real psychiatrist.

And they were like, do you want to do Zoom?

I'm like, no, I want to sit on a couch and I want to look at a guy that I can judge for an hour as to whether or not he's on the level

and not just shuffling me off with some medication ideas.

Did you feel like you got what you wanted out of the hour?

Yes, but he shuffled me off with some medication ideas.

Right.

Same outcome.

But I believed him.

Yeah.

So the last time we talked was like, what, 2016?

Long time.

And you just started, I think, hosting your show.

Yeah.

A couple of years in.

Yeah.

And it was not as defined as it was.

I think that, you you know, you're the, I think,

who was in the band?

It was this rotating crew.

It wasn't Armison.

Yeah, Fred was in the band, and it was the Itchy band.

We no longer have a band.

Eleanor Friedlander?

Yep, she was there.

She would come in and.

I wonder how she's doing.

I hope good.

Yeah.

She's a fantastic musician.

Totally.

Yeah, Sid Butler and Eli Janney.

No band now.

No band.

That was

the cost of doing business in the modern era of showbiz.

And like, how are you feeling about?

I've had this issue lately, and I think that you're starting to

realize it, where

for too long, everyone's been talking about the political environment as a two-party problem.

Yeah.

And really the problem is, is that, you know, there's an authoritarian coup going on, and we're up against something that is not relative specifically to two parties.

Yeah.

And I think that we all feel powerless in the face of it because we are.

But there is this idea that like these democrats have got to like what

what do you what do you you know so like i've actually gotten to the point where like you can make you know cute jokes about trump and whatever but really the problem is is almost impenetrable by clever jokes oh but i i mean i yes

I feel like maybe it has always been.

I mean, did we ever really penetrate as you look back?

Well, when the media landscape was different

and that everybody was relatively on the same page, I think that there was an ability to raise some awareness and actually have, to provoke some sort of reaction that could facilitate either cosmetic change or actual small changes.

I think that looking back, I hope that might have been true.

We were always very careful to approach this not as we were changing anybody's mind, mostly because we never had the sense.

With this show.

Yeah, with ours.

Yeah.

That

early on, if you disagreed with us, I don't understand why you would continue to

watch the show.

So the only mind we were trying to change was to get the people who were watching our show to

vote, right?

Like ultimately, that's all you can hope for.

And also feel represented.

Feel represented.

Because now it's almost like, you know,

people are afraid to talk.

Yes.

And, you know, I did a whole tour for a year and a half, you know, and a year that, or however long since January, with Trump in office.

And it really started to feel like I was

providing some sort of community service, getting these like-minded people out from under their phones and their computers into a room full of people that thought like them, and just to sort of bear witness to the fact that you're not alone here.

I think it's catharsis.

And I do think that, you know, ultimately that it is both,

it's certainly cathartic to do our show every day, and hopefully it's cathartic to watch our show.

But I'm talking to you during a hiatus week.

Yeah.

And this is so much harder for me than when I have the show, right?

Like what I read today on any given day, when I don't have the show to sort of process,

I feel so much worse.

And so.

Oh, because

the reality sets in.

It's just this horrifying,

like for example,

you know,

we're talking after Memorial Day, and you just sort of read what

the president chooses to say.

And, you know, it's just impossible to, you know, not just feel sunk by the reality of it well yeah exactly and and i guess that's not a good show

no but you know i i think we had this moment where you know as it dawned on us pretty early on election night okay i mean the first thing i felt was just this overwhelming uh

sadness about having to do it again i just didn't think i could generate the energy to do it again and pretty quickly I think we all came up with this tone shift that is open to comedians, that's not open to people who say work at CNN or MSNBC.

Sure.

I don't know how they go to work every day.

Yeah.

Because we realized, all right, in 2016, I think our approach was, you know, that this was, you know, we, a mistake has been made, you know, like that everybody will realize over the course of the next four years, this isn't us.

Yeah.

And now you firmly have been told, nope, this is us.

You know,

more us than it was even in 2016, because everybody knew exactly what the deal was.

And so we've sort of given ourselves permission to just, and I know this will sound possibly hollow as I say it, but just to make sure we are still joyful because like once your joy is taken away, like they win.

And so we're not trying to pretend like anything is good.

We're trying to still talk about things that are really difficult and scary.

Yeah.

But with a collective like, all right, you know, at the very least, you know, we agree with one another.

Well, that's interesting.

So

because

that actually becomes,

as time goes on, I think as time will show,

sadly, a revolutionary act.

Aaron Powell,

I mean, it would be nice if it ended up having

the result of some sort of revolution, you know.

Right, but just the idea of having voice.

Yes.

Like, what isn't really talked about as much is that, you know, Trump being the selfish, self-serving grifter that he is and this sociopathic, narcissistic personality who has a knack for

cranky autocracy

is being handled.

And I think that when you talk to people about,

even smart people, they're sort of like, yeah, I don't know what we're going to do

in 28 or whatever.

And I'm like, dude.

You know, what are we going to do next month?

But they don't talk about like Russ Vought.

They don't talk about

the fact that like, you know, Trump's not coming up with those executive orders 30 a day.

And that they don't talk about, I mean, everybody paid lip service to Project 2025, but I don't know that anybody really knows what that was, the architecture of an authoritarian America.

And that, you know, really what's happening on all fronts is, you know, and quickly, is that, you know, he's fucking all these major institutions, right?

Defunding, you know, breaking the government.

And like, most regular people are like, oh, that doesn't sound good.

And then they're like, I got to go to work.

And I'm like, shouldn't there be more urgency?

I, you know,

I feel like you've talked about this before, but like, I don't, you know, I don't think any of us have any sense as to what to do.

I know.

God damn it.

God damn it.

You would be the guy.

No, I'm not.

I mean, again, look,

I'm so lucky that I have the show to do.

But do you fear on any regular basis that

the corporate ownership of the network will come under fire?

And you haven't been spoken to about

toning anything down or anything?

I haven't.

And I do want to give credit where credit's due.

And I've never

had any corporate interference on our show from the very beginning.

Now, I also am aware that, you know, like you were saying,

2028 versus next week.

Yeah.

This stuff is happening fast.

Yeah.

You know, and

we do a Q ⁇ A every night.

And, you know,

after the show?

During, like, during the last commercial break.

Okay.

And I'll go into the audience.

And, you know, with regularity, people will say some version of, are you worried?

Yeah.

And I will say I went from ha ha ha no

to basically the answer now, which is,

it wouldn't matter if I was.

You know, like, I don't, it's like, no, you know, it's not, it's not like

I can correct the record in the next few shows.

Right.

I talk to Brendan about it all the time.

And, you know, he's my producer.

And we've been sort of like, well, this is what they said they were going to do.

Yeah.

And this is what's happening.

Yeah.

So, you know, once you take that in fully, and then you realize, you know, like I did a bit in the special about like, what do you even protest?

There's so much going on every day.

Do you make a sign that just says, please just stop?

Yeah.

This is fucking crazy.

Well, also, you're just your brain.

I feel like almost just retreats to this false sense of obscurity where you get through a day and you say, well, hopefully that's the end of it for the near future.

Hopefully they've done everything that it was they set out to do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, you know, they, you know, it turns out when you have sort of unchecked power like they do, there's no real reason to take your foot off the gas.

Right.

And, you know, and what are the repercussions of it?

It's like, it's so weird to be living in this situation where what I notice is that, you know, people are afraid to talk.

And because, like you said, that you're, you're, you're preaching to a choir to a certain degree.

So there's no real way to have a cross-the-board impact.

You know, everyone's insulated in their bubbles of information.

So there's a futility in that.

You also just realize how bad

the messaging always has been about so many things.

And even

the very idea that when you hear like federal funding is being pulled away from Harvard and the speed in which certain bad actors can frame that as

good, these rich kids shouldn't get a free ride to college.

And of course, the money was never for that.

The money was always for scientific research.

It was for cancer research.

And it was one of the things that always drove,

you know,

the sort of scientific breakthroughs that this country had a lot of reason to be proud of.

Yeah.

Do you, well, I guess, but that agenda has been going on forever.

They just want to, you know, break these institutions of progressive thought so they can make the general populace more malleable if it doesn't exist anywhere in the world.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's the part that's the scariest to me is I feel like every now and and then people are like, well, they're going to regret this because I don't think, and I'm like, they're incapable of regret.

They're incapable of shame.

And so, you know, even when, oh, well, you know, if homes get more expensive, they're going to really wish they hadn't messed around with the bond market.

I'm kind of like, no, they'll just blame it on something else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and

so it's terrifying to live.

You know, basically we're dealing with an administration that I do think is like incapable of shame.

and it's a hard thing.

And they're fucking

cruel.

Yeah.

And they like it.

They like being cruel.

Yeah.

And there's a lot of people in this country that are like, yeah.

It's also, I keep going back.

I mean, again, like, look, it was obviously a stumble when Hillary Clinton called them

a basket of deplorables.

But, you know, I was just being specific about the way certain people were behaving online that was deplorable by any sense.

I wish he would have tightened up the metaphor.

Yeah.

Just like a bunch of fucking idiots.

Well, right.

But there's

know.

It was too fancy.

But again, we should probably pay the price for being too fancy with their language.

But, you know, it's that crazy thing of just never, in our lifetime, right?

We never,

you know, saw an inauguration or, you know, a victory speech or, you know, a statement where,

you know, people relished the cruelty of it.

Dude, it's in their brains.

The phones are just breaking brains.

Yeah.

You know, that, like, I watched some weird old Michael Michael Mann movie I didn't know about last night, The Keep.

Oh.

Do you know that movie?

The fact that there's a, oh, wait, I do know this movie.

I do know this movie.

It's kind of a practical effect horror movie where Nazis are, you know, encamped in this Romanian mountain village.

I was very excited when I read this movie existed.

How did it hold up?

Well, I mean, the effects are horrendous, but

if you're a horror, I think it's got kind of a culty following.

But it is about

evil, and it's it's about Nazis.

And there's a monologue in there by the Nazi commander who has heart somehow to the Gestapo guy who said, you know, you've convinced millions of people to honor their worst possible self.

Like the power of propaganda, of breaking brains to engage people's worst fucking animal, horrible selves is like, you know, we all update ours every day.

Yeah.

I was kayaking on the Rio Grande.

Dropped my phone in the water.

Oh, wow.

And it was then, I literally maybe had the most peaceful two hours of the entire year.

But how long was it?

Panic?

You know,

it was so immediately gone.

And that's a muddy river, man.

And it was moving pretty fast with that thing of we're not going to.

It's gone.

It's gone.

Yeah.

And by the way, like, and then I woke up at like 3.30 in the morning in a cold sweat, but I did really, I had like, I had like a few hours where I'm like, you know what?

This, this past

learn this.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I also think it helped to just also be in nature's current.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I didn't have to do anything.

It's a very weird thing to accept.

But, you know, like, but the process you go through with a phone is sort of like, well, it's all up on the cloud.

I'll just get another phone, then I'll jack back in and everything will come back.

Right.

And it came back pretty fast.

Sure.

I mean, I lost a lot of money because I'm an idiot and I want to be my grandfather.

So I like to carry a wad of money in my pocket with a money clip.

And

I was wearing a jacket and it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had to walk to get my car.

But I dropped it.

Yeah.

And it's gone.

It's just, it's in Glendale.

I was walking down Brand Avenue and there must have been 600 bucks in that fucking thing because I'm an idiot.

You know what my grandfather used to do?

Basically, we're talking about grandmother.

My grandfather, this is before I was around, but my dad told me he thought scotch tape was the greatest invention of all time.

And so he would lay his money out and he would tape it end to end and he would keep it in a roll.

And when he paid paid for things he would carry scissors around and he would cut out like he'd like pull out like $14 and then cut it with scissors and then pay with like just a strip of

dollar bills.

That's a nice ritual.

But letting go of something like that, it's just sort of like, well, I hope someone who needs it found it.

You know what?

Yeah.

It's amazing how like you find.

You always find Buddhism after you've done the dumbest shit ever.

Sure.

You know, that's when you're like, you know what?

The river, what the river takes, may the river have.

And it's always just because you were dumb as shit.

Yeah.

I'm a fucking idiot, but I got to let it go.

Yeah.

And then let me see if I can make that poetry.

Well, I mean, that's what you're doing every day with the news.

Yeah.

But I like the like, but do you get

do you get

well?

I have a grandiose brain that I have to fight against all the time.

And but I think people in your position who are actually have a

major platform,

Do you get scared for your life ever?

I

try not to think about it, but I would say no.

If I'm really being honest, I think,

and I don't quite know why, but I would say no.

Do you get threats?

Some threats.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Any ones that are like, I got to bring the authorities in?

A few times there was a name on a list.

You know, they catch a guy who's got a name on a list.

But

I should say

long lists.

Like I've never, you know, I think if you're on like a two-name or a three-name list, you maybe spin out.

But if you find out, it's like a couple hundred names.

I remember years ago when I was on the radio, there was a guy that had like this site that just listed all the Jews.

Yeah.

You know, that, you know, were the evil.

And I really, and I fought to have the guy on the show because I wanted to try to convince him that if you just look at this list a little differently, it's amazing the contributions these people make.

This is a list of geniuses.

Yeah, this is a good list.

It's a good list of why the world is a good place.

My son did say,

we were walking and he said,

I sometimes worry, you know, because sometimes bad things happen to famous people.

And I said, yeah, you know, also though, like, you know, no one's really,

you know.

No one's really safer than anybody else.

And he goes, yeah.

And actually, you know, when I think about it, there's a lot of people more famous.

And I said, yep.

And again, now at this point, I just want him to feel better.

I'm like, yeah, I would say that's true.

And he said, he goes, you're kind of a medium.

And now I'm like, now I'm having, now I'm like, all right, we can talk about something else.

A medium.

A medium.

Yeah.

That's good.

Medium.

I'm going home.

Now I'm back on the couch.

But when you decided to, like, you know, there's only two people that really do what you're doing specifically.

It's you and Oliver that really kind of push back, you know,

flesh things out fairly thoroughly.

Yeah.

I mean, I would say the Daily Show does it.

I, you know, I think Colbert does it a fair amount.

But, you know, we

built this thing called a closer look, which is three days a week.

And, you know, we have this fantastic writer on our show, Sal Gentile, who sort of generates it.

And he has.

He used to be at MSNBC.

Yeah.

And he has this sort of cable background where he writes like a thesis statement and then he lays out a lot of arguments and then he comes to a conclusion.

And I think it's what makes it such a watchable piece of comedy is there's also this sort of through line of comedy.

So that's the framework for the comedy.

So that's something new for you as a guy who was a writer.

It is that, you know, you now have this outline of information that is news.

Yeah.

And it's

a point of view piece, right?

And you've got to figure out how to punch it up.

Well, Sal brings it in.

And it's not, it's not funny when Sal brings it in.

No, no, it's very, Sal puts in a ton of jokes.

Oh, okay.

And then, but then he's definitely writing comedy as well, really good comedy.

And then Alex Bay is our head writer and I, we take a pass and

then we sort of read it together.

But we've also, you know, especially post the pandemic when we were doing the show, you know, in an attic with no audience,

we have a lot, we give ourselves a lot of permission to take tangents, to do dumb bits, to do, you know, half-baked impressions.

Like we try to, while we're, you know, kind of giving this pretty, pretty,

you know,

a well-thought-out take on what's happening in the world, we also really want to embrace

the freedom to be silly.

Yeah.

To balance it.

Yeah.

That seems to be the way to do it.

Yeah.

Oliver does that too.

Yeah, very much.

And, you know, I think, you know, Oliver, who, you know, I'm a friend of, and we talk all the time, like, you know, he's always trying to balance like what's the dumbest thing we can do to counter just to counter the weight of what.

And I should say, you know, John, at least, you know, we have the, I think it's a little easier for us because we're talking about stuff people know about.

John's often like, hey, here's this thing you didn't know about that's also terrible.

That's more horrible than you can ever imagine.

Right.

Like at least they, you know, they tune into me to, you know, with an expectation of what I'm going to talk about.

Whereas John's like, hey, bad news.

Yeah, it's not, and it's not the whole show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've noticed that in terms of comedy writing, that, you know, you can...

that the silliness is almost this necessary pause

in presenting this stuff.

Right.

Well, I mean, you know, I think.

My comedy chops are not designed that way.

Like if I get an audience into a bad place, you know, my way out is like, I know, right?

But you, for a long time, I feel like you, you know,

you know, very trailblazing in being a comedian who talks about stuff that ultimately we're all talking about on our shows now.

Yeah.

Well, good.

Thank God.

Thank God I'm there to start something that I don't get credit for.

Podcasting, too, just FYI.

That's another thing.

Oh, and I guess you should know that we're going to be stopping it.

No.

Yeah.

Get out of town.

Yeah, in fall.

In the fall.

Why?

Because we're tired.

Yeah.

And it's just been me and Brendan for, you know, these 16 years.

And we do a new show twice a week.

And it's very,

you know, we did all right.

We've been in a deal with a platform for a few years.

And,

you know, we've always said about the show, like, you know, when are you going to stop?

And it's like, well, I don't know.

It's up to him.

Right.

And then, you know, it just becomes this thing like, you know, we don't have to keep doing it, dude.

Yeah.

I mean, that was a, that's, um,

I, but I, I'm mostly happy for you coming to that decision.

Yeah.

Um, I will, I will miss it.

The, um,

I'm, I should say, I'm incredibly

honored to be back.

Oh, yeah.

I hope I, I, I, I, like,

the, uh, the inner judge of, of myself that we all have, yeah.

I've, my first reaction was, they're running out of people.

They're running out of your coming back.

They're running out of people.

And now you're like, yeah, we're ending the show.

And I was so worried you were going to say, yeah, we're running out of people.

Once we knew we had Seth coming back for a second time, we're like, this is it.

There was a crap.

No, no, we don't really run out of people, but there is this sort of question about, I mean,

I'm older than you, but nobody seems to really stop.

And I don't know, I'm not sure what my life will be after it.

But, you know, it is a rare thing that we've done to where we've built our lives around this thing.

And we have done a new show, you know, every Monday and Thursday for 16 years without fail, whether vacation or no vacation.

Nuts.

And, you know, it doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a lot.

Did you start from the very beginning doing two a week?

Yeah.

Wow.

That was like the only thing we knew we were going to do.

It's like we weren't sure what the show would end up being, but it's like Monday and Thursday.

That's the right amount of time in between shows so people can, you know, have them to go

the drive time or whatever.

And like the more I talk about it, and I've only talked to a couple of people about it, you know, publicly.

I had Melanie on the other day, and he's going to be on the show where we're going to announce it.

And then like, there's this whole feeling of like, I've got this community of people,

but I'm not grandiose about it.

I'm like, are they going to be okay without me complaining about my cats?

You know,

I get that part though, right?

Because I think for us and our show,

It was really during the pandemic where I understood it because I had never read the the YouTube comments on my show, but when I was doing a show and there was no audience, I sort of turned to it.

Yeah.

Just that ego needed to have some feedback to not think I was just yelling into a void.

Yeah.

And I found it to be really lovely.

Oh, good.

And, and so you sort of, and, and I kind of underestimated how you build a community.

And like, look, I think they'd be fine without me, but it is, that's a hard thing to to break away from.

Yeah.

And also, this is like the majority of my social life.

Yeah.

Like, is like having you guys, like, that's why we have recurring guests, not because we're running out.

It's sort of like, well, he was, I liked him the last time.

We had a,

I had a good time.

It is, I, you know,

Lauren Michaels told me that

when he was, you know, because everybody was at, you know, there was that long run, and I think everybody finally accepts now that Lauren's going to stay.

But he said he was talking to Steve Martin and Steve said, Lauren, if you retire, who do you think you're going to hang out with?

Yeah.

You know, like, and that's that community thing.

Like, Lauren gets to be, you know, not few guys, Lauren's age get to hang out with that many young people.

Have a famous person who's like right next to culture, come by once a week and hang out with them.

And it's a great gig, socially, it's a great gig.

Well, I had a very weird realization, whether it's real or not, you know, despite his power and despite his impact, that, you know, he's a guy who is, he's a television producer that goes to work.

Yeah.

And, you know, he's been going to work in that building for however long it's been, 50 years.

And

that's sort of who he is.

Yeah.

Despite the fact that he's built this fortune and had this power, he's a star maker, everything else.

But when you see him walk down the hall, you're like, he's just been doing that.

Same office.

Yeah.

I mean, it's so funny.

I said to him, you know, during the 50s stuff, I said, you know, it's so funny.

When I first met you, I thought, oh, my God,

I hope I get the keys to Lorne Michaels, New York City.

And now all these years later, I know it's an office, Yankee stadium, and two restaurants.

Like, you know, he is not, he is such a creature of habit.

Right.

And so there's actually, if you hang out with Lauren, like within like three months, you're like, oh, we're going back to this place?

Yeah.

Because you like, you know, you're going to be a little bit more of a child.

But that's what anybody does.

I know.

That's what anybody does.

But it really was, it was sort of like a strangely empathetic moment I had.

Yes.

You know, like after mythologizing this guy my whole life.

And even, you know, people were on the show, you guys humanize him.

But we all know that he's this bigger than life presence.

But then I just saw, you know, kind of him kind of waddle off into the building while I'm putting my gear away.

I'm like, oh my God, he just works here.

I had one of my best Lauren moments, which was during the 50th.

I did, I was at Update and was doing that thing with Fred and Vanessa where, you know, they used to do that bit where they were, you know, the friends of dictators.

And for the 50th, they were friends of Lauren Michaels.

And I've only ever watched, and again, Lauren laughs at sketches, but I'd only ever watched with him under the bleachers.

Well, I've never

got to watch him watch.

So I'm at the update desk, and he was just sitting in like the second row with his family.

And he was really laughing, especially because Fred and Vanessa were like talking about him, obviously a fictional version of him.

And it was really kind of, that was a real humanizing moment to realize, oh, God, like he's also, you know, he's a comedy audience.

Yeah.

You know, he always, and I think that's a part of the job that he wouldn't wouldn't want to give away either.

Did you learn anything from him in relation to that?

Because you seem to be kind of

very nuanced in your way of assessing what's funny and what isn't.

Sure, but I think that thing, I mean, that freedom to just enjoy people.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, he really.

Well, I'm glad that the man who has everything is still able to enjoy life.

Can still find a way to laugh.

What a relief.

You know, I was really worried.

I do.

I mean, I will say, I do think he was really worried about the 50th.

I mean, I know he has everything, but I, you know, if the 50th had been a dud, I think Lauren would have carried it to the grave.

I don't know if I'm the first to say it, but when I saw the audience of the 50th, I'm like, this is the resistance.

Yeah.

That's them in that room.

How are we going to win this?

They're all in that room right now.

Oh, it was something.

It was.

I couldn't, like, and then people kept showing up.

And then, like, some people didn't look particularly comfortable.

But I was happy to see Keith Richards always.

I had my Keith Richards moment.

You did?

I don't have many, but I,

you know, it's it's right down the hall from my office.

So it was weird.

Like the SNL 50th was both like this trippy thing that I couldn't believe I was part of.

And it was also like 100 feet from where I go to work every day.

Yeah.

And so I started more than other people

felt fine at commercial breaks getting up

and going.

And it was so hot.

And it was people like Keith Richards.

When was the last time Keith Richards had to stay in his seat for three hours?

Three plus hours.

And so at one point I just, it was very hot in the studio, and I just grabbed like 12 waters and walked.

I was just handing them out to people.

And

I said, Keith, would you like a, you know, I've never talked to Keith on the show.

I was like, Keith, do you want to water it?

And he's like, oh, thanks, mate.

And I was like, that's all I need.

Like, also, it was so funny.

Like, of all the things Keith Richards has craved in his life, I found him the day

the moment he needed water more than anything.

Oh.

Well, what was the vibe?

I mean, what were, when, you know, heading into that thing, what did you do on it?

Did you write?

I was, yeah, I was, they hired me to be a writer, but I really didn't have much to do like i what it a couple weeks out it was pretty clear what the sketches were and and you know the people who originated the sketches worked on them and uh and did a you know great job but uh

i i was a i mean i all my anxieties came back i i thought you know i had a lot of times over the course of the week where i think i was not alone of like what role am i going to play am i gonna are they gonna need me yeah this yeah um because the last one the 40th was right after i'd left and i felt very i still felt very close and essential to the show and i just realized like it's doing fine without me.

And, uh, but um,

yeah, I mean, it was, I, you know, being at the table read one more time when, again, it was mostly writers, but also, you know, you know, Steve and Tina and Amy and

Melanie.

Yeah.

It was, yeah, it was amazing.

I, it was that thing of knowing it, it felt like being aware it was the last time and not

knowing as a human, you're incapable of absorbing it all.

Yeah.

Cause, you know, the seconds go just as fast, even if it's the last time.

Yeah, but it's so interesting that like for somebody watching it and for somebody who's inside of it, like, I only know, like, you know, for whatever reason, I don't get asked to go to things.

I don't seem to know how to maintain relationships with people.

I'm becoming like this old character, I think.

Were you good at it in your early stand-up days?

Were you good at maintaining relationships?

No, I resented the other side of the business to the point where none of them wanted to give me opportunities.

I was the guy that, you know, like if they're, that never realized that assistants were on a career trajectory,

that eventually,

when you were addicted to that assistant, that he was going to be running everything.

Like,

I was very.

What a funny thing to realize way too late.

Oh, they all move up.

Yeah.

And

they don't like me from when they were younger.

I remember.

I'm very nice to everybody now.

And I know.

Yeah, no, I believe.

Yeah.

I was an angry man.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

I remember once being rude to,

and

I had very few of these, but being rude to somebody who's one of Lauren's assistants.

And someone's like, do you think there's any Lauren assistant who's not showbiz connected?

Like, do you think there's anybody got that job from like a resume?

Right.

And I was like, oh, right, right, right.

Right.

Wasn't there a bit on the 50th with that?

Wasn't there a line in Sandler's song

about the assistants?

And, oh, whose kid is it?

Yeah.

Sandler, man, what a needle to thread because there were, he had so many inside jokes that even if you were outside you appreciated why fun why they were funny yeah and that's a really well I think that was the trick of that whole thing wasn't it yeah is is to make it not so insulated that you know other people could enjoy it but also not it wasn't a show for people who'd never seen SNL that's right yeah but like I watched it and there there's like there are two specific characters and moments that I was like, oh my God, that's the best thing ever.

There was something about the,

there was something about Eddie Murphy relishing doing Tracy Morgan that I thought was spectacular.

Like, it seems like, you know, I don't know who pitched him on it, but he was like, I'll definitely do that.

Well, Che told me that Che pitched it to him and that the minute he pitched it, Eddie, the first time he heard it, started saying things as Tracy that made the final script.

Like, he immediately improvised lines that made the final.

I mean, that

I think you can tell, right?

I mean, the joy.

I mean, again, there's nothing quite like watching watching Eddie in the pocket.

Sure.

Yeah, but the fact that, like, you know, that he was so in tune with Tracy.

What makes Tracy Tracy?

And then the fact that Tracy's right next to him.

And I don't even know what Tracy must have been feeling.

I know.

To have Eddie Murphy doing like a perfect impression to you.

It's that whole lasagna thing.

Yeah.

The best.

Three cheese lasagna.

I think that was maybe the first thing.

Four cheese lasagna.

I know I'm going to get it wrong.

Oh, my God.

And then

Will's fucking jailbird character?

Yeah.

What the fuck was that?

Amazing.

And that,

you know,

that's Colin Joe's sketch.

And I will say, man, shout out to Justin Che, who, one, I think, are just fantastic on update.

And they both wrote so many great things for that SNL 50th.

And so many other writers did too.

But a real shout out to them.

My our friend, Neil Brennan.

Yeah.

said something really funny afterwards.

He goes, you know, everybody who ever worked on that show has so much charisma.

And then you see will and eddie and you all look like just people on a bus

like they're just a different thing yeah and even amongst the best you know sketch performers of all time they come out and you're like oh i should retire you know like

i mean they're just it's nuts but that character like i don't even like it was so disturbing and funny that i was sort of like we need like a show right with that guy it's also that thing that again for guys like you and i who are at our very best have gotten better at being us.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, like,

that was the whole goal.

No range.

Rangeless.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

To watch Will Veryl on what, his 500th sketch character have a new move.

Yeah.

And just, it was so

disturbing.

Yeah.

And funny and confident.

Yeah.

Well, that's a weird thing.

That's an interesting thing you bring up.

It's like, you know, I've just been working on being me.

Yeah.

And I think I'm kind of nailing it.

Yeah.

But to the point where if I do movies and people, and this is a liability of

doing something that, you know, shows all of me, which is the podcast or whatever, is that anything I do, like, well, it's just Marin being Marin.

I'm like, no, it's not.

I was acting.

Yeah.

But I was listening.

I was doing the acting thing.

And then I have to rationalize it.

Like, well, you know, Clooney's always clooney, really.

Yeah.

I'm not saying I'm clooney.

No, but you certainly,

I mean, no one.

Right, no one's saying Tom Cruise.

I saw the new Mission Impossible.

Same moves from old Tom Cruise.

Yeah.

Of course.

Get him running.

Yeah.

Get him hanging.

I'm excited.

Get a look, I will tell you.

Did you talk to him?

Who?

Tom?

No, he wasn't there.

Nobody moved on the show.

Have you had him on the show for...

I've never had him on my show.

Huh.

Yeah.

Why is that?

I don't know.

Aren't there a few guys like that?

I have a few guys like that.

Like, what's the holdup?

Yeah.

I feel like,

you know,

I think he has a pretty good relationship with Fallon.

And I think he had a pretty good relationship with James Corden.

They did some really funny stuff together.

It's sort of interesting the kind of point of view on, because I'm doing your show in a few weeks or in July for the game.

Apple show.

For the no, it's going to be for the special show.

Oh, for the special.

Gotcha.

When's the Apple show coming out?

June 4th.

Okay, gotcha.

So you're coming for the special.

Yeah,

I want to do all of them, but you guys are also weird about that.

We're not weird at all.

I will say the 1230 shows.

Yeah.

If you're, let's say, doing.

Well, I'm only doing you and Jimmy.

Okay, great.

great.

That way you go.

But I had to break that up by a month or two.

But that's fine.

That wasn't that.

It wasn't.

I'm sure that didn't come from us.

I don't know where it comes from.

Okay.

But in my mind, I'm like, dude, I'm a great guest.

You're a great guest.

And I'm like, I don't have to do the same stories.

Yeah, you can talk about anything.

Yeah.

I mean, it's like,

can you take that into consideration?

Jesus.

Yeah.

No.

Whatever.

I also think that that seems like

an unwritten rule from a bygone era.

Like, you know, it used to be that maybe like, right.

Me too.

If somebody was on Leno and then the next night they were on Conan, you'd think, oh, gosh, Conan's got to get.

No, I think that's exactly true.

It's like, why do you, like, how many, how many people are there that can go around?

Yeah.

But, but I'm like, come on.

God damn it.

God damn it.

No, but I'm excited you're coming.

Oh, thank you.

But in terms of like hosts, it's just interesting because you do a thing

where you're clearly listening, you're engaged, and you move, you know, your curiosity kind of drives you into places with the guests that, you know, and you're funny.

And then there's like,

but you, but you're very grounded, but you're engaged.

And then, like, with Fallon, you just realize, like, when you look at him, you're like, I gotta make him laugh.

Yeah.

I think, but that's

a good thing, too.

He's a great audience.

Yeah.

And, but that's the whole thing.

I, but it's funny, you know, I, uh, I love doing Jimmy's show because I think that as well.

Like, like you

realize, like, oh, different muscle.

Here we go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, cause he's kind of waiting.

Yeah.

But it's great.

I know.

It's great.

Like, what's going to happen?

But he was also like, I mean, he was,

he was that at SNL as well, like a really good audience.

And so I do.

Oh, really?

You know, I

do feel this way, which is that I've...

Once the guest shows up, I feel like the hard part of my show is over.

Yeah.

You know, especially

most of the time.

There's obviously exceptions.

But in general, I think if you approach it as now I'm just gonna have fun with interesting people yeah yeah oh no yeah and don't put too much on it yeah but the but like as from doing this kind of thing there there are those moments where you're you're that guy and then you know after about a minute you're like okay you know

I mean

with a long road ahead of you.

You have to lift this one up a bit.

Well, that's because again,

it's like running winds.

My show's wind sprints versus a marathon.

You know, at any given point, I can always say to myself, it's only eight minutes.

Yeah, that's right.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or 10, whatever.

Yeah, if someone shut me out eight minutes in, I'm like,

because I have this therapist brain about it.

I'm like, we're here for an hour.

That's what the time is

at least.

And we're going to do that.

We're going to do the hour.

And that helps me.

You know what I mean?

I don't think I'm a therapist, but I do have this idea, like, all right, well, you know, figure out a way.

And then, like, but and then, like, but I'm just talking about the other late show hosts, like, Kimmel,

when you sit with him, like, you know, he's, he's almost like it's different because

he's sort of dug in he's almost like letterman was you know later on where he's so dug in and he's he's there and he'll save you you know but you know he's not going to come get you no but he also I've only done it once yeah and I'm going to do it again this week and

so with a very small sample size I think he gives this impression to you of whatever's fine yeah yeah you know what I mean like don't you this is it

it's all going to be fine.

Yeah, yeah.

So, uh, yeah.

And,

you know, I won't name names, but like early on, like, you know, it's amazing how whatever.

Yeah.

When I started doing this, you would talk to segment producers.

They'd be like, got anything else?

Yeah.

Dude, and you're just like, this is, this is the only life I'm living.

Yeah.

I mean, when I used to get on the phone with Frank Smiley for Conan, like I, because they'd call me on, you know, when they'd have fallouts, because they knew that I just, I would sit on panel and

have something.

But I would get on the phone with Smiley and I'd be pacing around my apartment in New York, sweating.

And I'd be like, okay, I'm telling a story.

And then I'd finish it.

And then I'd just hear Smiley go, what else you got?

God damn it.

And they're like,

oh, my God.

And then Ferguson used to have Bart call you and be like, so where were you born?

I'm like, what are we doing?

How far back do you want to go?

But people have gotten looser.

They've gotten looser.

And I think mostly because they realized, what are we doing?

Really?

I think.

What do your guys do?

You know,

the part of the process that I do want to give a shout out to is, you know, our researchers,

I said that weird, but our researchers do, I was like, that's not how you say it.

But researchers.

So they, I wanted to say it again so people knew I didn't think that's how you said it.

They make sure that we're not asking people things they've been asked before recently as well.

Usually, you know, we are getting people, if they're on a tour, we're getting them after they've done one, if not two, of the 30 shows.

So we're, and then, you know, our segment producers talk about the phone, but we try to bring a lot to it as opposed to, what do you got?

We're like, hey, we heard, you know, we read this really funny story in print.

Yeah.

Or you do the, are you, do you, have you talked about the, this?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so we try to, you know, we try to like, um, you know, but again, it's, there's a, you know, as you've learned doing this, there's all these different kinds of guests.

There's people who like, they need very little help.

Yeah.

And there's some people who want to pretend like it's not going out in the world and just want to talk to you.

And then there's other people who need, you know.

Oh, yeah.

They need like, I want to tell a funny story.

Yeah.

Help me tell a funny story.

But, oh, and then we didn't talk about Colbert.

Now, Colbert, when I do his show, which I've done a couple of times,

because

I have the ability to be pretty serious.

Yeah.

And sometimes when I'm with him, I'm like, let's not do it.

Like, just, we just do the funny thing.

Right.

Because I know you're going to be like, but Mark, you know, I'm like, I don't know.

You know, it's just.

But I think that that, one of the truly special and unique things about Stephen is his ability to like live in that serious place.

Well, I think that he, like, I think initially, you know, I think he might have been made to feel uncomfortable with it, but then he just sort of owned it.

Yes.

And he's running sort of an old school kind of intelligent, sort of like curious, creatively curious show there where like he owns his Catholicism, he owns his his disposition.

Yeah.

And he doesn't even, you know,

when he's talking, you don't get the feeling like, I got to make this funny.

Right.

That's not a priority.

But he's also, you know, really, you know, quick on his feet, improvising.

Totally.

So he's, you know, again, but that thing of owning it, you know, it sounds cliche, but ultimately, anybody who does one of these things, like if you can't find your way to your most natural self, it's never going to work.

Is that true?

I think so.

Yeah.

I mean,

I don't think,

I I know the show I'm doing now is like the closest to my skill set that it well, I think it's great because, you know, when I first, like when you were doing update and then like, you know, I, and I knew you were a writer and then I knew you were a head writer, that that I think that it enables you to be funny in a lot of different ways that you, like all of the ways that you're capable of being funny.

It's nice to have a a show like ours where there's a lot of real estate to fill and there's a lot of different ways to, and also just, you know, it's so fun too.

You know, when I was at SNL, when I was a struggling cast member, the amount that I thought, oh, what if I'm an impression guy and try to be like super precise and they all stunk?

And now, you know, I'm doing just tossed off, you know, half-baked impression.

And because there's joy behind it,

they're working.

Yeah, they work.

It's just about the sort of impressions are weird because, like, I'm a guy that I can do them for like four or five seconds.

Yeah, that's right.

And I'll nail it.

But, but beyond that, then I'm, second-guessing it.

Like a power lifter.

You can't do a lot of reps.

That's right.

I can do the one phrase, and then that's good.

And people are like, oh, you should do a whole thing like that.

No, I can only do

just little bits.

Yeah, little bits.

But I never tried.

But that's another part.

And do you have that where I'm like, if I could just try harder?

Well, that was the problem in my SNL years.

When things were going badly, I really thought that, you know,

again,

funny, no one's ever tried.

Like, funny, no no one's ever gotten funnier by trying harder, you know?

I guess that's true.

I mean, you can make, look, you can be more successful, but like nobody got funnier.

Well, I wonder because like there was a point where so much of my comedy was coming out of a frantic, panicky place.

Yeah.

And there was an intensity to it that,

you know, that wasn't able to sort of detach and just put on a show because I was so

driving.

But I found that like with Bleak to Dark, you know, for me, like, because I know I'm naturally funny, but like, I'm always envious of people who are physically funny.

Right.

Because they're those guys that are just like, Will, or even like an example I always use that people don't, I think it doesn't land with people is Kevin James.

Yeah, is oddly, you know, like he, if he's just standing there, it's like, what, how does that happen?

Like, I don't have that, I don't think.

So, when I had to do that last bit about the bat killing myself with a bat, I was like, you're doing physical comedy.

You have to figure out the beats.

And, you know, you got it, you got to fucking put it together, man.

Whereas like a physical comic would just, it would be a no-brainer.

By the time you did it, was it second nature?

Or were you still, like by the time you filmed it, were you still thinking about the beats?

Well, it's like, how many times am I going to hit myself?

That's the funny part.

And what am I going to say after that?

I think it's probably basic comedy, right?

Yeah.

Like there were points where like I was like, well, I think two's the limit because three, it's diminishing returns.

So I had to make those calculations.

But yeah, by the time I did it, I was okay with it.

That's good.

Because it didn't seem like you were overthinking it.

No, no, but I had to deliberately say, like, this is physical.

You can't be self-conscious about it.

And there is something funny about hitting yourself with a bat.

There's two things I want to say.

One, I think that when I picture the physicality of comedians,

you are one of the easiest to.

picture.

Like when I think of you on a stool, that is a physical choice.

Yeah.

And that is sort of a trademark choice.

And so even though it's not wildly physical, I do think a lot of how you look

is assisting your

company.

And because like with this new special, I've made choices around the stool.

Yes.

I was like, because I've been the pacer, I've been the guy on the edge.

And as I get older, I'm like, do a little everything, man.

You know, like pay, you know, if you have an homage in your mind to something that you were before or somebody that influenced you, you know, be aware of it and know that you're doing that.

You,

not to blow what the joke is, because it's such a memorable part of your special, but like the turning back and asking about the selfie moment.

Was that overthought or was that natural in your, while you were playing it out as a, because again, you're retelling a story.

Yes.

I'm retelling a story that that, but I had to frame it.

That was a framing issue.

Right.

Because, you know, it's, it's an, it's, it's not, it turns out it's not an unusual thing, people taking selfies with their, their newly passed people.

And oddly, in the 1800s, it was a very popular form of portrait photography because dead people were some of the only people that would come out clear in pictures because you had to leave the aperture open so long.

So there's this a tremendous trend in memorial photographs.

But that aside, I had to frame that as like, this is not what I really thought, but this was the first funny thought I had.

But there is a nice,

you know, because then the delivery.

But that, see, but that's the thing is I did know the natural timing of it.

Yeah.

Because like, even if you're going to physicalize something, you know, you've you've got to have a sense of timing to know when to drop that beat and that you can't learn that but but there was i i you definitely you know through working it out which i don't i guess you don't really get the opportunity to do on a sketch show like you know i i could you know kind of figure out what's the distance before I'm going to drop that thing.

And knowing that it was going to be like, what the fuck?

So, you know, you can get greedy with that.

Right.

But

it definitely was worked out.

I had a, I'm very proud of something,

which Which is I had a physical bit that worked in my

special that I came up with the night of

the floor night before because we did do it two nights before we taped it.

But

just because of not hearing shoes, we put carpet down at the Vic.

And I have a bit about how I hate how my kids roll dice because they can't keep two dice on the table to save their lives.

And so And then I was like in the moment, I realized, oh, you know, I would never want to lie down on a floor because I feel like I'd get covered in dust, but there's carpet here.

And so I basically, in the fly, was like, this is my impression of me playing dice with my kids.

And I just lied down and tried to like reach my finger.

And

again, if I had thought about it ahead of time, I think because of the same aversion to trying to be physical, I would say, ah, that, you know, nobody wants to see me do that.

But because it was so natural, you were in it.

It was really fun.

That's the best.

Yeah.

And then the other best I said to my wife, yeah, I did it because, you know, I was like, oh, a carpet.

Yeah.

And then she's like, a carpet is so much dirtier than a floor.

And I'm like, I think you're,

that's not what this is.

Not when they just put it down.

That's new.

This is HBO carpet.

Well, I did a thing where, and I seem to always do it working towards a special where

everything's pretty fluid.

You know, I was very confident about all the bits, but

there was a couple of things that tagged themselves like days before.

Like after I've been doing this shit for a year and a half.

And I was, it was, that, because that's, I'm not, I don't write like you.

Like I have to wait for things to be delivered.

I have a thing that's funny enough to do, but I know it's going to get funnier when it's delivered to me.

Right.

And I don't know when that's going to happen or where it comes from.

If you had to pick, like, because obviously the problem with a special is you have to pick one moment to catch every joke at the same time.

And ultimately, some jokes are in their ascendancy and some jokes have maybe already peaked and you feel like they're just, well, whatever.

You don't have the same.

Wouldn't you think is the perfect time if you could film one of your jokes, like the 20th time you do it?

The 10th time you do it?

Or are your jokes different and you sort of always.

Well, I always, because they're long form, like there's,

I don't know, man.

Like, like, if I have a long piece, like I did one on John Oliver's when he hosted that stand-up special thing.

It took me months to put it together.

It was a long piece about being on a plane, and there was a lot of physicality and a lot of different voices.

And it took me forever to make that thing work.

And then I do it on his show, and you have this mindset.

Well, I'm like, well, that's done.

Like, that's out there.

But I think

for me, if I don't get tired of them, I get tired of short-form jokes.

Yeah.

So because it's like, oh, that works.

It's like a math problem, like A plus B equals, haha.

And you're like, all right, how many times is that going to be satisfying?

Right.

Whereas the story, you can always hang new stuff on it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so,

but I came up with a punchline for something like two days before the special, and I've been doing the joke for a while.

But then that's so exciting, right?

It's the best.

Yeah.

Because it was, I had a line there before, and it was okay.

But this was like, that's the button.

But there's part of me that always thinks, like, why can't I just write like regular people and sit and

make choices on paper?

I mean, the one thing I'm confident of is you at this point know the process that works best for you.

Yeah, but it's like it would be so much easier.

Sure.

But if you if you I think like we all find our if we're capable of an easier way, we go to it.

Yeah.

Well, I did this whole, I came up with this line that was like such a

beautiful kind of moment was like, I do talk about

the problem with progressives in general.

Right.

You know, like, you know, single issue, single issue progressives that, you know, are not really, we're all disconnected from any unifying left because it doesn't exist.

So they get very passionate about one thing and then they fight about it with each other, you know.

And

it's true.

Yeah.

It's sad and true.

And, you know, and I kind of explore that because I know my audience and I made a very...

clear decision in this special to play to them because no one's doing it.

And the people that are playing to the right claim they're not because either they don't know it or they just think that this whole anti-woke thing is really a censorship thing and they're duped.

But nonetheless, after I kind of explored the progressive sort of

nitpicky stuff,

I said, we actually annoyed the average American into fascism.

Well, that is so funny because as much as people talk about like everybody's too sensitive now, like literally they were so sensitive to certain progressive issues that they were like.

well they because they were they they were platformed yeah and and and just like the disconnect was so extreme that you know and it gave them something to be mad at yeah it's um

it's a shame how happy people are when they're angry it's a real problem it's very satisfying i think yeah um

let's talk about nathan fielder yeah

have you watched the rehearsal i haven't started the season i apologize okay you know what can i just say uh i'm very excited and and

I've had a hard time finding the time.

I'm so mad that I have to say this.

But I think he's a genius.

He is.

I mean, I really think he is.

And I'm just, my YouTube algorithm will point me back to Nathan for use.

He did the funniest thing.

He came on my show.

Yeah.

And he said he had just done Kimmel and he had used his one anecdote, but he thinks it's good enough that he can just do it again.

And I mean, that,

again, that's just a very small idea.

And

by saying it, you know exactly how I delivered it.

And it worked so well.

He's so very funny.

The thing,

okay, so you haven't seen that.

Okay, then let's talk about Tim Robinson.

I mean, Tim Robinson's, it's the best.

But it's so crazy that, like, because I went and watched a movie.

Yes.

And I liked it because, you know, I'm a late adapter to him.

So like, like, I was able to watch all of everything he's done at once, like the Detroiters and the

I think you should leave and just take this guy in.

But there is something about the particular buffoon he's invented

and that he inhabits that somehow speaks to something so human, but so specific and not explored that it's just mind-blowing.

Well, I mean, again, we're living in an era where buffoons won't back down.

That's right.

And so he is, I think,

you know, not,

I actually wouldn't know the answer to this, but like, I don't think it's by design, but there is a reason this show is the most perfect show for this era, even though it seems like, and by the way, I believe it would work in any era,

but it is so perfect for this time right now.

Yeah.

It is for me too.

It's so,

is edifying the word?

You know, he was, I was at SNL when he was hired as a cast member, and it did not, you know, work the way anybody who is a fan of his thought it should.

And I,

having been the head writer at the time, felt like I was, you know, mishandling this asset.

Like everybody knew how funny he was.

And every table read, he would, you know, crush.

And a lot of sketches he tried at SNL, not that many, I should say, but, you know, found their way into I Think He Should Leave.

And so for everybody who worked at SNL to see him have this moment, along with Zach Cannon, who's his co-writer,

it's so lovely.

Yeah.

Because he's also the best dude in the world.

They both are.

And for them to find the, I don't know, the moment, they weirdly have found their way into the zeitgeist that's almost beyond what SNL is.

Yes.

Yeah.

Because it's so singular.

Yeah.

And I watched a movie and, you know, everyone's saying how funny it was.

And I knew he was going to be funny.

But what was interesting to me is that I wanted more of it

in some way.

Like what was interesting is that the risk that you take with that character

is that in the sketches, there's something heightened about the dupes around him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Because they've all got to be like,

what?

But in the movie, there were scenes being played as if they were real life.

You know, when there's that scene where it's like, where she's like, I can't be with a narcissist, and he just is confused.

But it was almost like taking

this alien and putting him into a real situation where he was like being challenged to act like a normal person.

And I, you know, there were moments where I'm like, oh, I don't think they're using them as good as I can.

But, you know, that's just me.

I have excellent news for you.

Yeah.

He, I've seen the pilot of his HBO show,

which is.

This is new.

This is new.

Yeah.

And they're filming it now.

And I can tell you from watching the pilot, it's everything you just said you wanted more of.

Oh, good.

You know, I think Friendship's a great movie.

Yeah, it's funny.

But this show

is,

I've always said those sketches are so hard to predict because I feel like a classic sketch structure is like A beat, then B beat, then C beat.

And I feel like his sketch is like A beat, then J beat, then like double Q.

Right.

And so that's the thing.

You might not get to see.

Right, but there's the leaps are so long, but if you could see all the beats they didn't show you, they do connect.

Like it all makes logical sense, but they just get so bored with the premise that they're like, we're going to jump way ahead.

And so I just feel as though there should be.

But him and Fielder, I think, are just mindset.

It's really something.

It's really cool.

Yeah.

Just like, even just like him eating a hot dog out of his sleep.

I mean, what the fuck?

Yeah.

It's crazy.

And

it's so funny as a, and I'm a guy that like had to expand my mind when it comes to comedy.

Because like Fielder.

Initially, I just found him annoying.

And then like, you know, all of a sudden with this season of the rehearsal, having watched a lot of his other stuff and all the other ones, I was like, oh, my God, this thing is working on so many levels i can't even wrap my brain around it and and and then to be able to enjoy that is a is sort of a big leap for me that i you know for me to get out from under the sort of like well if i just focused i could probably do something like you know like the resentment over based on what insecurity and just enjoy things is a big big deal it's great yeah and with tim it's just sort of like what the fuck i the one for me

i'm gonna get my seasons wrong maybe it was season two Coffin Flop.

You know, it was the TV show about bodies falling out of coffins.

And I remember watching it and my first instinct was, I cannot wait to show this to my dad, who had, you know, introduced me to early SNL and Monty Python.

And there was something about Coffin Flop that I just knew, oh, this is forever funny.

Yeah.

This is an I, first of all, I know it's never existed before.

Yeah.

And yet whenever somebody came up with this idea, it would have been funny.

And it was so fun to show it to my dad and have him laugh so hard at Coffin Flop.

It's so rare that that happens.

You ever seen that one with Eric Andre trying to get his phone out of the gorilla cage?

Oh, my God.

It is.

I mean, I think one of the things about Nathan, certainly Eric, certainly Tim, one of the things that makes it so easy to enjoy is knowing...

That you're not, you weren't adjacent to having the same idea.

Never.

You know?

Never.

And so part of, I mean, part of it, I think, is, you know, getting older and that's a good good way to frame resentment.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, right.

This is completely out of my wheelchair.

If you'd had a million tries.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even if somebody had said, here's the, the title is coffin flop.

Yeah.

Write a million sketches.

You're not going to come up with it.

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.

Yeah.

I appreciate that.

That'll probably help me in my life.

I hope so.

It's good talking to you, man.

It's great talking to you, too.

What a delight.

And I hope you win.

You know what?

Even if I don't, the genuine way you said that is victory enough.

Well, I never, I know we're all sort of competitive and we want to win.

And I say that from a long history of not winning anything.

Right.

But I do.

I hope if it's important to you.

I would be lovely to be nominated.

I would have no expectation of our show winning.

Okay.

But nominating would be good.

I'm excited to see your Apple Show, too.

Oh, well, that was, you know, I play, it wasn't a stretch for me, but I hope it all come together okay.

I, you know, it's sort of acting's weird with me because I really have a hard time sitting around.

Can I venture that Owen's an easy person to act with?

Yeah, well, he's one of those guys where when you're with him, you know, of course I know Owen from the movies, and when you're with him, you know, he's kind of that guy.

But then when you watch, even watching these trailers of the show, I haven't really seen a whole episode.

I'm like, oh my God, like he, you know, there's some people that just fit on screen.

Yeah, they just know.

And it's just like, it just is what it is.

And, you know, and I'm being, you know, right, right, right, right, right.

He's like, hey,

just like

that thing of, yeah, they understand how cameras work.

Whereas I think the best you and I have ever done is we understand how audiences work.

Yeah, exactly.

And I'm always like, you know, for me to get ready to shoot a scene and just, you know, remember to be like, all right, which camera is it?

Like, I don't even know.

Yeah.

A lot of times I'm not even thinking about that.

You know, you're a bad actor when you're worried, like, I got to be loud enough.

You're not even supposed to be loud.

All the actors I work with, they're like, hey, man.

I'm like, what's going on

I haven't I haven't got a handle on that part I'll work we'll get it once this show stops you'll

you'll recommit it exactly

I'm gonna really lean in thanks man bye buddy

that was fun I think I'm gonna be on Seth on Seth Seth's that's a tough one for a guy with a lisp and

Seth I think

I'm gonna be on Seth's show in July.

And again,

you can find Family Trips with the Myers brothers and the Lonely Island and Seth Meyers podcasts are both available wherever you get your pods.

Late Night with Seth Myers is on NBC and Peacock.

Hang out for a minute, folks.

Hey, folks, on Thursday, I talk to Mike Berbiglia once again.

If you have a WTF Plus subscription, you can go listen to episode 200, where Mike interviewed me.

All right, let's do this, what the fuckers.

What the fuck, buddies, what the fuck nuts.

What the fuck are nuts?

Yeah, all right.

I'm Mike Berbiglia, and I'm filling in this week for Mark Maron, who is

not available to host, but he is available for an exclusive interview.

He's going to, I'm going to interview him this week.

I think that went pretty well.

Yeah, that's fine.

I'm not going to chime in like that.

You know, it's your show from here on out.

Okay.

I'm not going to sabotage it.

That's from episode 200.

You can listen to every WTF episode ad-free by signing up for WTF Plus.

Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Here's a little

interpretation of Jigsaw Puzzle.

Boomer lives.

Monkey and LaFonda cat angels everywhere.