Episode 1643 - Carol Leifer

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Lock the gate!

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, Nicks?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Marin.

This is my podcast.

Welcome to it.

I'm sitting here in my studio amongst random garbage, detritus of my life, a life's worth of detritus.

I'm sorry, I just, I've only been home a few days and I've been through a lot over the last couple years, kind of burning into

that special that I taped on Saturday.

And now right away, it just picks up.

Like, all right, what are we going to do for the marketing?

What are we going to do for the ads?

What do you like?

Let's look at some pictures.

What are we doing?

Still coming down, man.

But, you know,

I don't...

I'm making some progress, folks.

And it's progress in a mental health kind of way, I think.

I've talked to you about it.

I've been on that

Busporin for a bit.

And I can't really tell if it works.

I can kind of tell.

because something's happening.

Like

I can see the zone of my anxiety is somewhere in between who I am

and the things I do to make myself crazy.

Okay.

Some of those things are, you know, legit.

There's no reason not to feel anxiety about certain things, if they should cause anxiety.

But

there is reason to

perhaps not make it your life's work, which my life, it kind of is on some level, part of it.

But I think the Beast Born is giving me a little space within who I really am now and what

I've become and whatever journey I've been on and the things I've overcome to make me who I am.

And the part of my brain that's just sort of like, nope, you're not him.

And hey, how come we haven't done anything today to feel shitty about ourselves?

We don't have to.

I can still beat the shit out of you for no reason.

You want to get hyper-critical about how about your special?

You remember that one line that you don't think went that well, even though they got two shows of it from nine different cameras?

And maybe if you have to do ADR, you can do it, but that doesn't matter because you fucked it up.

You fucked it up, you fuck.

All right, let's move through the move, let's move through that one.

Let's let that go.

But, you know, it's always right there for you.

There are some things that I shouldn't feel anxious about that I do: food, my, my looks, my.

It's just, there is what I'm realizing in that, is that there's a whole

world of my brain that is constructed a certain way because of things that happened when I was younger, that just wants to, you know, generate

detritus,

just garbage, you know, just kind of psychic detritus that just stacks up.

And then I'm like, how do I even clean this?

How do we get rid of this?

I've got a neural pathway full of psychic detritus in all types of forms and shapes, memories, moments, patterns.

So

I guess what I'm saying is it's kind of working.

I went to the shrink, made him get out of his house, not going to do Zoom for things that don't, that, you know, where human interaction is possible.

And I made him sit across from me and he gave me this sort of anxiety test.

you know, and compared it to, I guess, the first time I was there.

And he said, I'm about 30% 30%

better.

He'd like 50.

So I don't know.

And I also think that I'm getting some side effects, but I'm not obsessed with them because I don't know if they're side effects from the medicine or just side effects for the fact that my life has been fucking stressful

for the last year or so, every day.

Three jobs, always thinking, never a free moment.

You know?

But I just, I wanted to explore with you that zone between like, you got to be grateful, give yourself credit for what you've overcome and who you are today.

Like, there's a lot of things like that I'm not anxious about.

I wasn't anxious about the special.

I wasn't anxious about the material.

I was a little, you know,

on the fence about my shirt and I was hoping my hair would work out all right.

But in terms of feeling fear going into it, zero.

Zero anxiety.

But then I realized that that is who I am now, that I no longer have those fears.

But my brain was sort of like, yeah, but we're pretty used to, you know, kind of making it difficult for you and having fears,

you know,

in general.

So I'm glad that you're not fearing the thing you've worked on for two years and that you're ready to go.

But

let's do these other ones.

There's all kinds of dread we can muster up.

And I know I've talked about this before, but I think that if anything is working, it's that

the medicine is giving me a little more space between who I am, where my brain's at now, in terms of I'm okay.

You know, I'm doing good work.

I've learned a lot of just all the stuff that represents, you know, the whole person, but I've still got this fucking garbage factory in my head.

A goddamn detritus generator.

Yeah.

Psychic Detritus generator.

Right?

Huh?

Today on the show, I'm talking to Carol Leafer.

She'd been on the show a while back, and I like her a lot.

She was on like back in 2011, so it's been a long time.

That was episode 203.

But she's a stand-up of the generation of Seinfeld and Larry David and, you know, a little, you know, younger than Richard Lewis, but from that crew.

She just recently won an Emmy for her writing on the show Hacks, and she's got a new book out called How to Write a Funny Speech.

How to Write a Funny Speech.

That's helpful for you people.

I guess, you know, I don't know if it's still number one, but it used to be the biggest fear people have is public speaking.

But now it seems like not enough people are afraid of it.

I guess public speaking, when you do it alone in a room with your phone and you're speaking into it, is different than actually getting out there amongst the people, putting it on the fucking line, man, where you can't fucking do another take, do a delete it, do another take, delete it, do another take, man.

You got one shot at this fucker, maybe two.

Yeah, I'm talking about my special,

which should be out in July.

I think the date is July 26th.

Also,

that show I did with Owen Wilson, Stick, that trailer is getting around.

I guess that's premiering on June 4th, I think.

I should be more on top of these things.

I should promote myself more, or at least the things I'm involved with, right?

The bad guys is coming.

But anyways, fear of public speaking.

Not enough of that going around.

I think maybe some people should just turn it off.

Shut it down.

All right.

You know, I know you're charismatically engaging in whatever it is you do for 30 seconds at a time.

But

are you adding anything?

Or are you just some

content detritus?

Yeah.

Is that it?

So now that I'm opening up the space in between who I am currently and all the things that have made me who I am, that I've worked hard cognitively to manifest, and

the detritus mill

in my mind.

And in that zone where I have this space, you know, it's time to figure out what do I enjoy that isn't immediate gratification.

What do I enjoy?

What things would you like to be doing, Mark?

Would you like to sit down and read more books?

I don't think so.

Would you like to maybe take in more films and

art?

Only if it's good and it's well referred, you know, thoroughly vetted by people I respect who can, you know, tell me that it's great.

Would you like to travel more?

I don't know.

I don't love it.

You know, pitch me some places.

This is the other part of my brain, by the way.

Would you like to buy some other things like a new car?

Why?

Why?

Why?

Just because I can?

Would you like to

get better at guitar?

Yes, but I never seem to do it.

I don't, you know, I practice and I play, but it's still within my comfort zone.

And sometimes I add new notes from new scales I learned, but I guess that's progress.

Would you like to do more music in your life, maybe with other people?

Yes, yes, I would, but then you have to make plans and arrange things.

Would you like to get rid of some of the

books and pieces of you know

things that you've collected over many years either on purpose or not and get rid of them god damn it yes i would god damn it but would that bring you joy

maybe

maybe some relief but i've got to get beyond relief and into the joy thing and i you know i'm back home and i'm just doing stuff i'm cooking I you know, I'm trying to isolate.

Like, what do you like to do?

I get up, you know, and I drink a lot of coffee.

That guy, John, from Lantern Coffee, Grand Rapids, Michigan, sent me some coffee and some chocolates.

Fuck, dude.

That shit is so good.

I don't even know if you can get it online.

Lantern Coffee.

Nice of him to send it because it's weird because when you have an experience on the road and you're like,

is this really the best I've had?

Is this really amazing coffee?

And

you mention it on your podcast and then the guy sends you some and you're like, god damn it, it is.

But anyways, so I do the coffee.

I do, I have several options of nicotine right now, which I could probably get off of.

And

then I exercise, but I like cooking.

I started cooking.

I like to have a full fridge of things I cook so I can have things to eat all week.

Because then, but what about, how about that?

Maybe you should enjoy more food out.

Why?

I cook better at home.

There's a lot of ways.

Maybe you should spend more time with other people.

But I do kind of, well, and do what

I got to figure it out.

Because I like, I just made some Indian food yesterday from scratch.

And I just, I'm going to make some more.

I look forward to it.

But is that immediate gratification?

Because like I

take time making things and I eat it like really fucking fast.

Look, if I can widen that zone between who I am and

the

psychic

garbage manufacturing plant in my head, maybe I can, you know, kind of stop, slow the plant down,

you know, go through the garbage a little bit, and then figure out some things I like to do.

The problem is, it's just like, is this it?

Is this it?

And you know what?

It kind of is.

Even if you say, like, is this it?

And I'm like, I'm not going to do it this way.

I'm going to do it another way.

Eventually, you're going to hit, is this it?

You know,

when, when does that sentence, when does it, when is that question answered?

Is this it?

Yes,

and it's amazing.

Is this it?

I hope so.

Wow, so good.

Because as soon as, like, you know, you do that, so good, and then like a couple days later, you're like, ah, it's okay.

And you're just, then you're back to, is this it?

God damn it, just standing on a pile

of fucking psychic detritus.

Psychic detritus dump.

I'm all right, though.

The good part, I think that the part of me that, you know, feels proud of himself, feels like he's doing good work, enjoys things, he's going to win, man.

I'm rooting for him.

I'm rooting for him.

Ooh, I found this.

This coconut yogurt.

Look, I'm a plant-based motherfucker right now who no longer says vegan because of annoying vegans but um

cocoa june coconut yogurt

holy fuck

i was doing coco yo for a while because like i like yogurt but you want to get that probiotic stuff because you know it's supposed to be the answer to everything

is this it is it probiotic it is then yes it is

But this Coco June stuff is fucking great.

Isn't it exciting when you find something you love to fucking just stick in your fucking mouth and eat it?

Isn't it the best thing when you're like, man, I'm just going to keep eating this until I don't like it anymore?

It's great.

See, I know joy.

It's finding something that you just want to fucking shove into your mouth and keep eating until you're just like, you're beyond full, you're beyond happy, and you're just sort of in a world of fuck.

How's that for an ad for a coconut yogurt?

Eat until you're in a world of fuck.

Coco June yogurt.

It's very good, though.

It's hard to do the non-dairy stuff, and they just fucking nail it.

Okay, look, Carol Liefer is here.

Her new book that she co-authored with Rick Mitchell is called How to Write a Funny Speech for a Wedding Bar Mitzvah Graduation and Every Other Event You Didn't Want to Go To to in the first place

it's available now wherever you get books and this is me and carol

talking

so

kathy radman is opening for me that is so great for the special fantastic and you know i knew her when i was a door guy at the comedy store when i was 22.

i used to see her.

I didn't know you were a door guy at the comedy store.

Yeah, it was a brief period.

It was almost a year.

I got very fucked up on drugs and I had to leave.

But I was a door guy in, I guess it would be 86, 87.

Okay.

So I used to see Kathy, like, you know, when she was like young.

Yeah.

And I always liked her.

I never thought she liked me, but I think she has one of those personalities where like anyone could assume that about her.

Like, I don't think she likes me.

She's just very,

you know.

But I decided, like, I'm going to have her open for me because,

for one, as we were talking about before we turned the mics on, there's this, like, this Jewish thing that doesn't,

you know,

Jews sort of dictated what comedy was for decades.

Yes.

And it's just gone.

I know.

And, you know, it was the sort of through line of American stand-up, American comedy writing, everything.

It was all that rhythm.

It was all from that.

Yes.

And it's gone.

The people that do it are gone, but she's still here.

And

you're still here.

Yes.

And she's got a very specific kind of delivery that is very nostalgic for me, but also very true to what I grew up with.

Yes.

And I just thought, like, well, that would be nice.

to have that.

Oh, she's a great opener for you.

And I've been working with her a lot.

Me, her, and Wendy Lehman.

Yeah.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Mother's Day.

We're going to be at Flappers and Burbank.

Really?

Yeah.

Do you tour with it out in the world?

I do.

And what do you call it?

Is there a name for the tour?

Is it like three Jewish ladies or something like that?

Herlarius.

Of course.

It has to be that name.

Why didn't I figure that out?

Why didn't I

guess that?

Herlarious.

And what do you guys do?

Like 20 each, half hour each?

We do a half hour each.

We just headline the Comedy and Magic Club.

We have a great, great time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I bet.

And this is not an insult.

Have you thought about like playing Jewish things?

Of course we have.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

We did Tarzana.

We did a country club in Tarzana that was about 99%

Jewish.

And it's fantastic.

But I do a lot of speaking at temples, at JCCs,

Federation.

Oh, yeah.

that's very big on my docket.

What do you mean?

Like you like, this is a speaking engagement, so you're like writer, comedian,

producer, whatever.

We'll discuss her life in show business.

Exactly.

Okay.

Judaism is in my DNA.

Right.

Yeah.

That's okay.

So that, so that means what?

So I talk a lot about, Mark, my Jewish upbringing.

Yeah.

You know, how it's

impacted me through my life.

And then people love my story of in show business because I've been around for so long.

Right.

And like, I know we covered probably a lot of it way back, but it's been a long time.

But I mean, like, you were a stand-up.

Like, I remember you from being around when I was younger.

And

then you were a writer forever.

Yes.

But what was the first writing again?

My first writing job was on SNL.

Oh.

Yeah.

In 85.

Was that the weird year when Lauren was gone?

Yes, yes, the weird year.

Uh-huh.

And who brought you in?

What happened was I auditioned.

There was a showcase at the comic strip, and Al Franken saw me with Jim Downey, who was the headwriter for many years.

And right after they approached me and said, we'd really, you know, love for you to be on the writing staff if you're into it.

I was like, am I into it?

You just have to meet Lauren.

So, you know,

I was ready to move from L.A.

back to New York to do this and got ready for my meeting with Lauren and had everything planned and my outfit and the whole thing.

And I went to this rehearsal hall to meet him where he was auditioning cast members for that season.

And he came out.

And he said, hello.

And then he said, I don't do a good Lauren.

He said, Jim and Al said

you'd be great for a writing job.

You know that it's a lot of late nights.

And I said, yeah.

And he said, okay.

And he he went back to the room.

And that was my meeting with Lauren Michaels.

And then he was gone, though?

Like, did he leave?

Was he, was that the year he wasn't around?

No, no.

That was the year he was around.

It's just a story of, you know, my 30-second meeting with Lauren Michaels to get a writing job on SNL.

Oh, you'd met him many times before?

No.

Never.

No, that was it.

And how long were you there?

I was there that season.

That was it.

Yeah.

What happened?

They,

you know, they got rid of most of of the cast and most of the writers after that season.

But I was, you know, part of a murderer's row of writers that year.

Who was there?

Smeigel, Don Novello, John Swartzlander, George Meyer, Jack Handy.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was

a pretty great crew.

It's so wild, man.

Like, because I'm just starting to feel this sort of, I'm 61, so I'm just starting to feel like, holy shit.

And because of COVID, I theoretically should be 58.

You know, like it happened to you.

All of a sudden, I'm like, what happened?

It's like, well, we lost three years.

Yeah.

But now I'm looking around and I imagine it happened for you.

Like it just happens where all your peers were like older people.

Yes.

And it's bizarre.

I know.

Because you hold them in your memory as so like you're young people.

And now all of a sudden I'm looking at my contemporaries like David Cross or, you know, Todd Berry or some of the guys I started out with, a tell.

And I'm like, we're the old guys now.

Yeah.

What the fuck happened?

It's crazy.

Right.

It is crazy.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And the other thing we were talking about before, which like I realized, you know, after Richard

passed away, like, I don't know what exactly happened,

why, you know,

like everything else, comedy became non-Jewish.

Yeah.

It frightens me, but I also understand it.

I used to have a theory that once antidepressants were introduced, you know, the tolerance for Jewish complaining

was

enough already.

Was diminished, right?

Like, you know, you'd see Richard Lewis.

I'm like, you know, they have medicine.

You know,

we can solve this.

Screw your act.

Yeah, yeah, we can solve this problem.

There's meds.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But I don't really know what happened, but I guess like lately, I've been kind of nostalgic for it because I don't see anytime I see somebody who is fundamentally Jewish.

Like, have you seen Robbie Hoffman?

She's on Hexis.

Yes, yes, yes.

That is crazy.

You're like, she grew up.

She's so funny.

She's so funny, but she grew up Orthodox

in this community where they still speak Yiddish.

So she's actually like predates, you know, modern comedy Jews.

And she has this delivery that's genuine, but it's like just post-Yiddish.

It's crazy.

Wow.

Yeah.

So what.

This public speaking thing, because I know you wrote this book.

Yeah.

And when I looked at it, I was sort of like, I'm not even sure I know how to do public speaking.

Really?

Well, I mean, I'm like, anytime I've done it,

it's always off.

I'm kind of, I'll write things down,

but I don't think in terms of the structure or who I'm talking to.

Like,

there was a brief period where I would go out and make myself available for keynote type of things.

But eventually I just get too personal.

And I do, it's not that I'm doing my act, I just get too honest.

And they're sort of like, what is it?

It doesn't fall within the

expectation

of what public speaking is yeah but i would think because um rick mitchell who i wrote this book with who um is a comedian and uh wrote on ellen's talk show for the many seasons um

usually comedians i love speaking at events and he does too i would think that you would love you know not uh

you know, specifically keynotes for corporations or groups, but that I would think people would go to you right right away for a wedding or a memorial.

No, I've never done either of those.

Wow, I'm very surprised.

So do you have a chapter for memorials?

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Because, you know what I've found, and especially at our age, going to more memorials,

I really enjoy speaking at them because I find it to be very cathartic

for me personally.

But also in the book, we talk about,

you know, people are afraid to be

funny at celebrations.

I've seen people kill.

Right?

Kevin Newan at Gary Shanley's memorial was the funniest thing I've ever seen in the world.

I saw that.

I was there.

Oh, my God.

I was there too.

It was crazy.

Yes, yes.

So funny.

But to bring up certain stories about someone, people love it.

Like, I just spoke at

my cousin's memorial.

He passed away of cancer at 55.

Oh, God, that's too young.

Yeah.

And the thing that everybody loved about him, he was a great people person, social butterfly, just, you know, so much fun.

So I told this story about how we had gone to see the Beach Boys together, him and his wife and me and my wife, at the Greek.

And I said afterwards, we were invited to the little after party, and I said, I really want to go over to Mike Love of the Beach Boys and

say hello because I opened for them in 1982 at Harrah's in Lake Tahoe.

I want to see if he remembers me.

He's out of his mind, though, right?

Mike Love?

Yeah.

I don't know if he's out of his, yeah.

I just know him as a beach boy.

He's just a beach boy, yeah.

Yeah, but anyway, so we're at the little after party, and I'm trying to work my way over to Mike.

I can't do it.

I don't see my opportunity.

I go to get a drink at the bar.

I turn around.

My cousin Jay is talking to Mike Love like he's known him for 40 years.

Yeah.

So much so that when I walk over, Jay is like, oh, hey, Carol, come here.

Hey, Mike, do you remember my cousin Carol?

She opened for you a million years ago.

And how

you know, and people loved it.

I loved telling that story, and people loved it because it really encapsulated who my cousin was.

So, yeah, we do talk about.

Did he remember you?

No.

No, not for a second.

Did he even politely say that he did?

He just kind of nodded.

Oh, yes.

You know, the vague nod.

Yeah, because they don't pay attention who's the opener.

No, and it turned out to be the worst gig of my life.

Really?

Yes.

It's that memorable.

But you still wanted to see if he remembered.

I just wanted to see.

What if he had said, like, oh, you had a hard, tough night that night?

I would have appreciated that because they used to tune up while I was still on stage and I had to go backstage.

I had no manager or agent with me and go like, Beach Boys, can you please not tune up while I'm out there?

So I thought maybe

he'd even maybe apologize

this many years later.

But none of that's important to the piece for the memorial.

See, I would bring that stuff up.

See, that's my instinct.

Yes.

It's like you do the funny thing about the guy and then he'd go, yeah, but I'm a little pissed off that

would make it about me somehow.

But that's fine.

I mean, people would, if I had added that into the story, they would have still enjoyed it, I think.

Well, that's the one thing about that audience.

You know, the worst that can happen is that you walk out going, it's a little weird to part with the.

No, but I love giving speeches, and that's why I'm not sure.

But

when you break it down, though, let's say for a memorial, what are the points?

The points are to reminisce about

qualities about the person that you remember, that people remember.

Stories.

Stories in any speech are the gold of a speech.

And also,

you know, being heartfelt.

It's always important, you know, I feel at the end of a speech to not be, you know, joe comedian and wrap it up with something heartfelt.

Yeah.

And certainly with my cousin Jay, it was easy because his death was...

really hard and such a great person and to lose his life at such an early age, as you know,

it's difficult.

Yeah, for everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And acknowledge that, acknowledge your own feelings about the loss.

Don't be afraid to have to emote.

You don't have to, you know, be funny necessarily.

Yeah.

Though I would imagine, as a comic and writing this with a comic, you know, you have to sort of try to give advice how to balance that out.

Yes.

Like,

like I just said, it's like you can make it about yourself if it's appropriate for the event.

And include, you know, and it's part of the story.

Yes, but to veer away from yourself and focus on the person.

So like what other people?

So there's weddings?

So that would be some more thing you focus on.

Well, look, there are basics that people don't know that we could not believe.

Like keep it five minutes and under your speech.

Do a type five.

Oh my God.

How many times have you gone to a wedding?

Yeah, an event.

There's booze involved.

So you don't know what you're going to get.

Exactly.

Do you say don't drink too much before you you talk?

We say have a drink.

Right.

Have on one drink.

Right, yeah, yeah.

But then people have seven more.

Yeah, yeah.

And then they are hammered up there.

And how uncomfortable is that?

It's memorable, but uncomfortable.

And people are recording it.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

So this is important now more than ever.

Sure.

Yeah.

And

what are the other chapters for?

Like a business or like what?

I mean, I guess I could look in the

table of contents.

Well, there are a lot of basics, Mark.

Yeah.

Because, as I mentioned, a lot of people are not aware of them.

Were you at Richard Lewis's memorial?

No.

Oh, okay.

I was out of town.

Well,

it was a really

nice memorial.

Oh, this just happened a couple weeks ago.

Yeah.

But,

you know, people get up.

and they start talking about the person and they don't say who they are to the person.

Right.

So you're up there, they're up there and you're sitting there thinking, is this a relative

roommate?

Went to camp with it?

You know, it becomes like, you know,

an NCIS.

Who, what?

So for people to go up and say who they are to the person.

Right, right.

You know, that's important too.

But

we do go into how to make something funny with steps.

But even if you're not, you don't feel like doing the work,

we have a whole section at the end of what we call jokes to steal.

Oh, good.

For any occasion, right?

Take the jokes, put them in your speech.

No one will know.

That's good.

Yeah,

and templates, Mark.

We have templates where you just kind of fill in the blanks.

Really?

Like mad libs.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

We wanted to make it easy.

Oh, that's good.

Easy for us.

It's very helpful.

Because, like, it is, like, it's one of those things I would think this book would sell because it is the most terrified, you you know like the scariest thing it's the top of the list most of the time right most people's greatest fear is talking in front of large groups of people yeah but comedians yeah greatest fear is not talking in front of people or

bombing in front of large groups of people it's that's that's the greatest fear it's like i can talk in front of people but there's that moment where you're like i don't know if this is going to go too well

because we know what we're there to do yes and you see the challenge of it and and you're like, oh, fuck.

It's odd that no matter how long you do this, like, there's that sixth sense that happens when you're backstage and you're just like, like, listening or assessing an audience.

You're like, that table.

That's that's going to be a problem.

You could tell.

You can.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

It is really.

Like, there's an energy in the room.

You're like, there's something wrong overstage right.

Yep.

What is it?

And then you're like, it's that guy.

You can't.

It's like a radar that we're crazy.

That's very strange.

You know what's so funny?

I just did Pete Holmes' podcast, and he said something that I've never heard before, but it's so true.

He said, you ever find

you have a bad set, and the next set after that is good?

Kind of almost guaranteed.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

You find that too?

Well, yeah,

because,

you know, whatever you put out, like, it happens like if you do a spot at the comedy store in the main room and then you got got an original room spot, the main room can kind of go either way because it's a big room and no matter how many people in there, it can be less than satisfying and you might have a hard time connecting.

But when you do two in a night and you've already put yourself out like that,

and you have to put that like little bit of armor on that you used to do all the time.

Yeah.

You know, the next set you're going to be like, fuck you.

Exactly.

You can't hurt me.

Yeah.

I just was pummeled down the hall.

And it's like, it is like a self-preservation thing.

Sure.

I'm not going to go home tonight upset

over my dead body.

You don't want to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I've said that on stage at the comedy store before.

Like, you know, whatever happens here, I'm not going to drive home thinking I made the wrong decision with my life.

So

you're not going to do that to me.

Or I'm not going to do that to myself.

Yeah, but there is that idea where you're excited to do it and you know you're good at it and then you just, it's just part of the job.

You go out there and it wasn't good.

And then you're like, no, fuck.

And then you got to go at the next one a little harder.

Absolutely.

You know, until you find the zone where you can let it down a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, our life is crazy.

And I've gotten very, you get spoiled too when you have an audience.

Like, I make sure I go do the store just so I can perform for people that don't know me.

You know, like if I go out to the theater.

Well, I'm surprised.

I would think when you go out on stage, people know you.

No, no, no.

No, I'm not.

I'm not like that.

My profile is not that big.

Like they're not, I'm not an every household name or anything.

So like it's going to be people that kind of know me or don't know me, but people do know me.

But if I go do my audience, they all know me.

It's almost like cheating.

So I.

Right, but it's good for you.

Yeah, it's nice, you know, to, but like, that spoils you in a couple ways.

Like then, like, sometimes I'll do clubs where, you know, I know that they didn't necessarily all come for me because I'm working it out at a comedy club, not a theater.

No, there's no walk-ups at theaters.

Like, I wonder what's going on tonight.

Yeah.

But like, sometimes if I get to, I talked about last night on stage, I had a bridal party, you know, a bachelorette party at the comedy works.

Uh-oh.

Yeah, but like, I knew most of them were my audience.

Now I got to babysit these fucking idiots.

And I was like, how can it was a long story?

But I mean, the point is, is like, I forced myself to go do the regular work just to stay tough.

That's good, right.

You know what I mean?

Just to, you know, see if the shit works with an unsympathetic bunch.

Yes.

In a 15-minute slot.

Yeah.

And also following, I'm sure, some

heavy hitters.

I still get mad about that.

I have not been able.

Because I know, like, you know, when you have 15 minutes and you're after somebody that's a killer, you're like, well, shit, now the first five is fucked.

Exactly.

You got to work your way out of the hole.

I've got tricks that I can do with certain performers because you end up following some of the same people.

Can you tell me one of your tricks?

Oh, well, like Pauly doesn't kill necessarily, but he's Pauly.

Yeah.

And he's one of these guys.

There's a couple of, there's a tradition at the comedy store that some performers bring the lights in, like they'll have the spotlight as opposed to the full stage lighting.

And he's one of those guys.

I'm in Argus, they do this thing.

Alan Stevens used to do it, but where they have a choice, so they get the spotlight as opposed to full stage light.

So like he does his thing, and people are excited.

He was a big star.

And, you know, and then the lights come back out.

And then he brings me up.

And generally, just to clear the suede, I'll say, Pauly Shore, ladies and gentlemen, I'll go, yep, that's what he looks like now.

I use the same line for Spade, too.

Well, there you go.

Now you're off to a good start.

You're in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Or if I have to follow Whitney Cummings or Eliza Schlesinger, I always get up and go, like, okay, let's just take it down a notch.

Or I'll say, let's shift from, you know, whatever, whatever to cranky Jew, like anything that'll get me.

Yeah.

Oh, that's really smart.

Yeah, because you only got 15 minutes.

Yeah.

See, I can't, I don't work at the store.

I can't get on there.

Really?

Yeah.

I don't know.

They just changed bookers.

I don't know what's going on there.

Where do you work?

Improv?

I work a lot at Comedy and Magic Club.

Do you live over there?

No.

Well, I live on the the west side.

Well, that's good.

Yeah.

For me, I'm like, I don't even, that's like a different state to me.

I'm like, do you ever work there?

I'm like, I don't even know how to get there.

Well, it's in Hermosa Beach.

I know.

Yes.

It's like fucking an hour from here.

And I do the Laugh Factory a lot.

You know what I love to do is Kevin Nealon's New Material Night.

Have you done that?

Oh, really?

Where's that?

At the Laugh Factory.

But you have to go up, and it has to be all new material.

How great is that for us?

It's great.

Comics.

And how's the crowd?

They're great.

Yeah.

They're great.

And just, you know, normally we have to go up and shoehorn in a new bid here, shoe, you know, between two.

So you can bring your notebook if you want?

Absolutely.

Yeah, someone does that in the belly room at the store sometime.

I think Fahim does it, where you can just work out shit.

It's fantastic.

It's a great world we live in now because the podcast and everything else is that people like to be part of the process.

That was unheard of before.

Yeah.

You know, like I used to bring notebooks up and people were like, no, what the fuck?

Is he

going to school?

Yeah, he doesn't have this shit worked out already.

We paid for a pro show.

Does he do that every week?

He does it once a month.

Oh, yeah.

He never asked me.

He asked me to go on his hiking show, but he doesn't ask me to do his new material.

Well, you know what?

But that's the thing.

I reach out to him and say, can I come on?

Can you do it and work it out?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you've got a bunch of new jokes and you do it.

And I love it because, as you know,

with 10 new bits, maybe

two or three will work, but they're there to hear even the clunker ones.

And you know, when you have a new bit that works, there is no better feeling.

Oh, yeah.

But I imagine, like, I think we probably work differently structurally.

Like, I go up with an idea and hope that the punchline comes.

I imagine, and then I'm sort of like, oh, it happened again.

The gifts.

But I think that you're probably more structured and you write the joke.

Yes.

It's good.

Like, I always regret whenever I write, whenever I come up with a well-structured joke off the cuff, I'm like, well, I know how to do that.

Why don't I do it more often?

But you have a new hour that you're doing.

Yeah, it's like an hour and a half.

Yeah, hour and a half.

So that takes a lot of working out.

Yeah, it works out, but it's all sort of oral tradition with me.

Like, you know, I have premises and I have bits and pieces, and they all kind of become fluid over repetition.

And it just naturally kind of forms itself.

You know, it's all in my head, though, which is, you know, that can go either way.

You lose a lot of stuff.

Yeah.

Like if you work with solid jokes, you have them.

You're like, what was that one?

Oh, I have it written down.

With me, I just have like cats,

you know, and then like, what the fuck, which one?

You know?

So it's not the most efficient way, but it all keeps me on my toes, which I think is part of it.

But you never, you never went through a period where you stopped doing stand-up?

I did a little bit during writing for Seinfeld.

I stopped, but I learned my lesson the hard way.

Then I went back up on stage after a couple of years of not going on stage.

And then it was like, oh, holy shit,

I'm losing,

I'm losing my all the experience that I had before.

It's interesting, right?

You know, it's like a muscle.

It's like the gym.

That's why you gotta use it or lose it.

So

since then,

I always

go to the station.

It's like going to the gym just

to stay in that relationship.

Completely.

Yeah.

And that's great.

But also you're doing like real shows.

You're working.

Yeah.

And you're still, and you wrote, I mean, I can't, you wrote that, you were on the staff of that last Oscars?

Yes.

With Conan?

Mm-hmm.

It's so funny.

And you've written

amazing?

Well, you know, I've known him forever.

Like, I was a recurring guest on a show.

I used to do panel.

I always wanted to be.

Oh, on the NBC show?

Yeah, I always wanted to be the Richard Lewis to him.

Like, I wanted to, like, I did two stand-up sets early on, 96, probably.

And then from there on out, I'm like, can I just do panel?

I want to be the panelist.

I want to be the guy that comes, sits down, and you're like, uh-oh, what's going on with Mark?

So we built that relationship.

So I'd known him a long time, and I know how he works.

And it was a very funny thing watching it because I saw him at Largo like two nights before, you know, kind of working shit out.

I'm so surprised that nobody taped it and leaked it.

Yeah, I don't know.

There's only certain people that do that.

You know, and at Largo, that's not really the audience that would do that.

Yeah, that's true.

You know, no one ever does that to me, ever.

And if they did, it's like, it's not going to be like a viral thing.

You know,

they'll achieve the disappointment I do when I post a reel on Instagram.

They think they got some hot item with my bit that I haven't done on a special yet, and it's got 200 views.

I'm like, you really got me.

I guess I can't do that on the special.

But so I'm watching Conan and like,

and I turn on the Oscars because I love the Oscars.

I always have.

I like

I felt over the last few years there was a sense of what I grew up with in terms of the community of Hollywood showing up.

It's not that it's no longer there.

They're just old or they're gone.

So you know, you're not going to see Jack sitting up front anymore because he's 100 and I'm not sure how well he is.

But I miss him.

So there's this changing of the dynamic.

Exactly.

But it's still the greatest show on earth.

I love it.

I love the spectacle of it.

But I didn't know how Conan would do.

And I know Conan.

And I'm watching it.

And I watch him come out and he does the first joke.

And then he started to do that thing he does where he, you know, he has a moment of insecurity and he buries the joke.

You know, like he's like, I know, I don't,

whatever.

Like, it's an it's an insecure thing.

And I'm like, don't do it.

And then like after the first two jokes, he was like,

yeah.

All like he just killed so hard.

And the confidence was so, it was like, it was beyond anything I've seen from him.

Yeah.

But you know what?

I knew he was going to do great because right before the show, I went backstage to wish him luck.

Yeah.

And he was, you could see it in somebody's, just the way they are.

He was cool as a cucumber and he was like, thanks, Carol.

You know, I just want to go out there and I want to have fun.

And that's what he did.

Yeah.

But I've seen that look of panic before.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he just was in the zone.

And he brought it back to what I thought the set was tasteful, like, you know, the way it looked, you know, and I thought the way they handled the audience was good.

And I just thought it came, because I asked him the night I saw him, I said, you're going to do a musical number?

He's like, I don't know.

And then he fucking did one.

And it was just like, it was totally his own thing, a Conan musical number.

But he brought back the sort of

weird celebration of the structure of the show.

Yeah, he did.

And it was great.

So what were the conversations about that in the writer's room?

Well, Conan had his own team of writers, and I'm part of the team that handles the show.

Okay, yeah.

So we talk with the presenters and

go over the things that were not Conan related.

Oh, so you're writing the bits for the people that present?

Yes.

Yeah.

And

I'm usually on the show team.

You know, I've worked on it.

This is my 11th time.

In a row?

No, not in a row.

Yeah.

Over a number of years.

But, you know, I've written for some of the great hosts like Billy Crystal and Steve Martin and Alec Baldwin and Whoopi.

Alec Baldwin hosted?

Yeah.

Yeah, with Steve Martin.

Okay.

Yeah.

I don't remember that one.

Maybe I missed a couple.

I remember it because Steve Martin wanted to have a writer's session up at his house.

And, you know, from when I came up, Steve Martin was like everything to me.

I'm such a fan.

And it was totally one of those moments of like, oh my God, I'm in Steve Martin's living room writing jokes with him.

Like, it was really like,

yeah, if I go now.

I've had that moment.

Yeah, completely.

Oh, wow.

Completely.

I feel like I've lost some of those moments having done this show for so long and, you know, kind of talking to people for long periods of time.

Yeah.

Like, I just see people as people.

But there are certain people that I'm like, oh, my God, you know, what am I going to do with this guy?

How am I going to keep it together?

Yeah, like who?

Albert Brooks.

Like, it took me years for him to finally do it.

And of course, he's like, he didn't want to do it at his house.

He didn't want to come here.

Yeah.

So he got a room at that, that, what's that little, that little beautiful hotel on the Santa Monica?

It's like kind of old school, kind of deco.

It's very kind of

boutiquey.

I can't remember the name of it.

But he gets a room there.

And it was hilarious.

It was just hilarious to talk to him.

He was like,

we were at Shanling's Memorial, and I'd been trying to get him for years on the show.

I remember we were at Shanling's Memorial.

Everyone's weaving.

He comes up to me, puts his hands on my back, he goes, let's do it now.

Oh, my God.

And Larry was another one who would never come on the show.

He never came on.

And

he eventually.

Well, he

he was doing those, you know, he was going to do those conversation, moderated conversations with him, you know, that he did a few of them.

Yes.

And he wanted me, he wanted me to do the first one.

So I did the first one.

I didn't know it was going to be a thing, and he didn't either.

But like,

oh my God.

And you worked with him a lot.

Yes.

Seinfeld and Kerb.

I have to assume, and I love him, that

you don't know what's going to happen.

Like leading up to it, like

the agreement we had was I could use it as a podcast.

And we do it.

It was live in D.C., a few thousand people.

And I was going to structure it

like I do here, to have a kind of a life arc conversation.

And, you know, and his assistant had sent me all these, you know, this screen, this montage of him through different years.

Yeah.

And I'm putting together this whole interview.

And he goes, well,

what are we talking about?

He's telling me, like, well, I'm like, well, I got the thing from your assistant.

I thought we'd go through the whole life.

He's like, what?

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm like, this is, you know, you're bar mitzvah and everything.

He's like, oh, yeah.

So, like, by the time, you know, a few days before, he's like, I don't want to talk about any of that.

I'm like, all right.

So, what are we going to do?

Okay.

He's like, I don't want to talk about politics.

It was just, I want to just be entertaining.

And I don't want to talk about my life.

And I'm like, oh, fuck.

And it was driving me crazy.

And then like, you know, like the night before,

you know, he calls me up.

He's like, do whatever you want.

Fuck.

And then, like, the day of, I'm in DC for the show.

And he calls me earlier in the day.

And I literally thought, like, he doesn't want to do it anymore.

That'd be great.

Yeah.

Maybe he won't want to do it.

He's a bad phone call, right?

You're relieved.

But he's like, okay, you good?

You ready?

And it went great.

You know, I just realized, I learned a big lesson, though, to just be gracious.

It wasn't about me.

And just, you know, throw to him the things that he's going to get laughs with yeah that i know and that you know he you know that i know he wants to talk about and then just shut up and then like wait till he peters out and then do another one yeah and that's it see yeah yeah

but when you go to steve martin's house

so

did you were you able to kind of keep it together to pitch jokes and stuff yeah i mean after the initial shock of zooming out and oh my god i'm sitting here writing jokes with my idol Steve Martin.

Then, you know, you get back into it.

And,

you know, Larry David, I know literally since my first date in show business, Mark, because he was the MC at Catch, Characterizing Star, when I did my

open mic night, who put me through.

So I do, you know, I know him forever.

So you know how he works.

Yeah, especially because working at Seinfeld and knowing how to pitch to him and Jerry

was a great training ground also because,

you know, Larry's very cut and dried.

And I think that's really one of his greatest qualities because you can pitch something to him.

And they're like, no, you know, the biggest put down at Seinfeld was like, no, I could see that on another show.

Right.

But if he was excited about an idea, he would get genuinely excited.

Yeah.

You know.

Well, the funny thing that involved with me engaging with him

was I could make him laugh.

You know, so that is good.

Yeah.

You know, because it's a rare thing sometimes, especially with funny people.

But like he's got a great laugh and you can get him.

Yes, you can.

Yeah.

I know that from Kirb because he would break up all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that was easy.

But like, did you have, have you had trouble with like hosts like with non-comedic hosts?

And I imagine presenters, that's got to be, you write these jokes and everyone's on board, but you don't know if they're going to dump them or not, or like if they're going to get it, pull them off.

Yeah, you don't.

But the beauty of working with people is they really do want to be good.

They don't want to go, you know, it's really tough for them because they're mostly actors.

So they don't know how to go out and be themselves.

Or be funny necessarily.

Yeah.

But

we really work with them to make sure that they're 100% down with what they want to do.

And they give a lot of feedback.

And of course we take it and,

you know, come up with something.

I think people also know that as a stand-up also, they know when they work with me that I'm going to give, I know the feeling of going out there and

being unsure or not knowing what you're going to do.

So I think they have a sense of confidence that I'm going to give them something that they, because, you know, most of it is confidence going out.

And also like, the only time, the reason it doesn't work sometimes is that,

you know, when you're a comic or used to being funny in front of people, you know, your instinct is to get the audience without even saying it.

Like, there's, you know what I mean?

All you're thinking about is if the thing's going to land,

but you know how to do it.

So, like, I think if you don't know how to do that, you're just kind of flying blind a little bit.

Yeah.

Right.

And you've got the thing on paper and you don't know how to maybe put the twist on it.

Yeah.

To make it funny.

Exactly.

But it worked.

I remember there's some funny stuff in this last one.

And I just like that it came back to a host-driven thing as opposed to like, who's the host?

Yes.

You know, it worked out better.

Yeah.

And the times, I think there have been a couple of times, there's no host.

I don't like that kind of show, and I don't think the audience does.

Because it feels rudderless.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You want someone, and when someone does it great, like Conan did, you know, who you look to as

the host.

It's his party, and he's running the ship, and people like that.

Totally.

So now,

you've been on hacks all four seasons?

No, no, I was just on the last season.

Really?

Yes.

Huh.

Because I've been watching it.

Mm-hmm.

And I like it.

Because I think it gets something right about stand-up

that you don't, that they don't usually get right.

And especially with Gene Smart, because that's what I mean.

Yeah, I've never seen an actor play a stand-up comic and do it convincingly.

And she does.

I mean, you totally buy, don't you, 100% that she's a comic.

Well, yeah, but I buy the life more.

Like,

you know, like I talked to Paul Downs about it.

That's his name, right?

Yes.

And I listened to that.

Yeah, that they're, you know, having known, you know, people that from the 80s who were relatively big, get shots end up in Vegas like I know that is an arc yes that is a trajectory of a type of comic that came up in that time

and they were very specific about that backstory so so that gave it all this kind of

realness you know like it was authentic yes and you know whether or not when they shoot her doing stand-up

I completely buy it.

It didn't matter.

You know, because there is some element of it that it's almost impossible to capture what it is that a stand-up is able to do.

But if you get all the trappings right, it works.

Yes, that's so true.

And I think a big reason why they brought me on was having come up in the 80s.

Right.

I know a lot about that world and what it was like.

Yeah.

So I hope that I added to her authenticity as being a comic and also as someone, you know, and that she's still around.

Exactly.

And like me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And but, like, what was what was the pitch?

Why, why this season?

Like, was there specific stuff that they wanted for you that they thought, like, well, we need Carol to do this because we're going to be doing this?

No, it wasn't that specific as much as

they have a thing called the Blue Sky Room that they do before each season where they get people together and they just spitball ideas.

And

I think I had pitched a lot of ideas that seemed interesting to them.

Also, being of

Deborah Vance's generation,

that I think that they found that they could find that helpful.

Right.

So

of last season, the episode that I wrote was, you know, it was called One Day.

And

the theme of it was...

The season we're in now?

No, in season three was last season.

Oh, one day.

Which one was that?

That was when she and Ava go hiking and they get lost.

Right, right, yeah.

And I had been talking in the room about how when you get to be

Deborah's age, my age,

and you think about things that you want to do.

Like, I still think about, oh, I'd love to have a little part in a Broadway show.

Yeah.

And I'd love to do this.

And you think one day.

Well, you know, one day is now.

Right.

If it doesn't happen soon, maybe it's never going to happen.

Right.

So that also became something that, you know, she talked about in that episode.

And I think that is something that only an older person,

someone of our generation,

thinks about.

Yeah.

So

not necessarily someone who's 30 years younger than me on the staff is going to think about.

Sure.

I was happy to control.

That's great.

Well, I mean, that whole world, like it's not like, I don't know that world, you know, the Vegas, the Vegas residency world.

Yeah.

But I know it's a real thing.

And that you're afforded this lifestyle because, you know, you're overpaid and you're given a place to live.

And they treat, you know, they'll give you all the money in the world if you can bring people into the casino.

Absolutely.

And there's like so many acts, certainly people from your generation that have done those.

You know, but and I know that, like, who do I think about when I, when I think, there's just people, like every time I go to the Burbank Airport and I see the signs I'm like oh my god

they're gonna be there for two months

have you ever done those I haven't but you know I have played Vegas a lot throughout my

I'll never do it career no it's not my thing but I think I'm right for it well it depends on the act that you're opening for but I certainly know you know from doing those gigs the clock in the stage and if they tell you to do 20 minutes do 20 minutes because if you go over a minute, that's a million dollars they're losing in the casino.

So they're strict about that.

And,

you know, all these little things.

I mean, you know, that I opened for Frank Sinatra in Las Vegas.

So you and Dreason.

That's right.

And Larry Miller, who

I had called beforehand to get some advice about

the gig.

I think he's doing okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

He was so funny.

The funniest.

The funniest.

But,

you know, each of these

gigs has their own roadmap that you have to kind of figure out.

Yeah, I just don't.

Yeah, you in Vegas doesn't really suggest it.

And I'm okay with that.

You know what I mean?

Like the idea of just thinking about doing it, because there's part of me that thinks like, well,

I can do a casino, but it would not be good for me

necessarily.

Right.

But like when I've done an opening for Seinfeld, that's a certain crowd.

Yes.

You know, because,

yeah, I mean, and I never really opened for anybody.

But I remember seeing Alan King in Vegas when I was there in high school or something.

Oh, holy crap.

When I met my grandparents out there.

But it was, it was weird because it was a, you know, it was like a smaller showroom.

It looked like it could have been a banquet hall on another day.

You know.

Oh, so it wasn't one of the big showrooms.

It didn't, not in my recollection.

And he come out and, you know, he kind of, you know, kind of autopiloted through 45 minutes, no opener, and left.

And I was like, wow,

that's the job?

It's kind of weird when you see certain, like, you know, comics, like, where they just get to a point where they're just filling a time slot.

Yeah.

You know, they're not going out there to kill.

And I mean, he was already an older guy, so I don't know.

Yeah, and I think that's also the trap to of doing your act for so long where you don't add any new material because it becomes like, you know, being in Oklahoma every night.

Yeah.

Just kind of like doing your lines

scripted.

Yeah.

So that's why I think it's always important to do new material because it keeps you vibrant and into it.

Yeah.

So what happens now?

What are you doing now?

Just comedy?

How's a family?

Your kids must be older now.

Yeah.

My son is 18.

He's a senior in high school.

How crazy is that?

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It happens.

Yeah.

The cliche is completely true.

Yeah.

Flies by.

Really?

Yeah.

But you have two or just

the one.

Oh, just him.

The one son.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

He's doing all right.

He's doing great.

He's doing great.

Yeah.

He's

a good kid.

He's,

you know, my wife, of course, got him into golf.

Oh, really?

Lesbian requirement.

Is it?

Yes.

Do you play?

I got to get back into it.

But

yeah.

Is he good at it?

He is good.

Yeah.

I've got this whole set of clubs I've never taken out.

Like I did a show for Apple that there's a golf show, but I just played a caddy, an old caddy, so I didn't have to golf.

But like, it's Owen Wilson.

It's all about golf.

And I don't know anything about golf.

Oh, oh, you're doing that?

I was in it.

Oh, you're in it?

Yeah.

Oh, I thought they were, I didn't know they they had done it already.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's going to be on in June, but I play his old caddy, so it's not on me to golf.

But like, they sent me, you know, one of the companies, Taylor Maid, sent me all the stuff.

And I'm like,

I don't know if I have the patience, man.

Yeah, it does take a lot of patience.

To suck forever?

No, it's a lot like stand-up.

You got to really suck to get good.

Yeah.

Does not sound appealing to you.

Yeah, I got over the stand-up hurdle.

Yeah, no, thank you.

Yeah.

No, but he's into it.

He's good.

But, you know, he's a sports fan.

He's into like the Bills and Josh Allen.

It's just very cool when you have a kid and they develop

their own world.

They become their own people.

Yeah.

And he loves soccer and he drives downtown and

see these games.

Oh, wow.

That's great.

Yeah.

It's very cool.

I remember hearing this sort of like, I don't know how he he just became this person.

He became his own person.

How did that happen?

Oh, and he's funny.

Oh, good.

Yeah.

Which is, but I knew that kind of early on.

Yeah.

That he was funny.

And like, but having a teenager around, that means you're kind of privy to this other world and other language of whatever is happening on their phones and on their platforms and on everything.

Like, like, I don't, I can't keep up with stuff and I don't have a kid.

Yeah.

But you have to deal with it all the time.

Like, I mean, I have somebody doing my TikTok, but I don't ever go on it.

Yeah.

And right.

He's on it all the time.

Yeah.

And all his friends are on it.

Do you are you on it?

No.

No.

No one's putting their clips up.

Uh-uh.

But I should because to, you know, I'm focusing now on selling my book.

So it's also stand-up.

Yeah.

Like I got a guy doing it.

He's just like, there's an entire history of me in stand-up spots.

and he just clips things.

Oh, how great!

And he says, What about this one?

I'm like, All right, and then they just go up there.

And I don't have a tremendous amount of followers, but I do know

to speak to like you know, whether people know me or not, that there's definitely more people don't know me who than do.

And when these clips come up, they're like, Who's that guy?

You know, it's still discoverable.

Yeah, I'm so surprised.

Well, maybe I should get his name.

Yeah, the guy, yeah, there's a few guys.

My stuff up there.

Why not?

Yeah.

Do We're a show business now for you.

Is there still a world where you pitch shows and stuff?

Oh, absolutely.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So you're doing that?

I am.

In fact, I'm creating a comedy for Valerie Burt Nelly.

Oh, that's so good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's so funny.

She is.

Well, I mean, I haven't seen her in a long time, but I interviewed her son, and he was great.

Oh, right.

Wolfgang.

I did that one.

Yes.

It's great.

Their relationship is great.

I know.

Like, I would interview Valerie in a minute.

I don't know why I haven't.

Oh, you should.

Because she was like, I mean, when I was a kid,

she was like great.

Yeah.

What was it?

One day at a time?

Yep.

And she's fantastic.

You know, I totally had her in mind for this idea.

And then you never know when you meet the person.

Fingers crossed.

Yeah.

She's incredible.

She's so sweet.

And they're going to do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's what is it about?

Can you tell me?

It's an older romantic comedy.

It's a a romantic comedy about people in their 50s, which

I've never seen before.

And I thought would be interesting when you're kind of established yourself, your personality,

and been through some shit.

Yeah.

Brought up a couple kids.

Yeah.

And falling in love with someone at that age.

the challenges

that go along, but still

wanting, finding love.

Yeah.

And I don't know if there is a show like that, is there?

There isn't.

So that's kind of interesting.

Yes, thank you.

It gave me a leg up in pitching because now whatever you pitch is like, it has to be something nobody's ever seen before because they're so ready.

The suits are.

Is it a network?

Oh, that's like this.

That's like this.

Yeah.

It's with CBS Studios.

See, that's what's interesting is that

there are these shows that are basically boomer shows.

And I think that generation still watches network driven stuff yeah like the kids don't they're just watching YouTube or clips or whatever but there's still a whole generation of people that are like I don't even know where to watch it yeah you know and you like you have stuff like the Kaminsky method or any of the the Lori shows like like those are all for a generation of people that grew up watching television yeah and they're still there exactly but look the Kaminsky method was on Netflix so there's still Netflix is an exception people know about Netflix Yeah.

I guess people, maybe I'm not giving them enough credit.

They can figure out where to watch something.

But it is sort of challenging.

Yeah.

And she also has such a big fan base.

You know, she is very open

on social media.

About who?

About who.

Okay, yeah.

She's very out of her.

And people know her.

And people know her and they love her.

So what did you write?

You got a pilot or you got a whole season written?

No, we just have the pitch.

Yeah, yeah.

The pitch that we sold.

But, you know, she's great.

A lot of celebs that you write for don't want to come to the pitch.

They're like, oh, you do it.

And whenever we sell it, I'll show up.

She came to every pitch,

participates.

You know, she's- But it feels to me that she, you know, with the, you know, with the death of her ex-husband and bringing up the kid, like, it feels like she had other priorities for a while.

And now, like, she must be ready to go.

She is.

And, you know, I don't know if you saw or watched Hot in Cleveland,

you know, and one day at a time, she's a pro.

She knows how to

get her laughs.

And,

you know, that's another great thing.

When you develop for someone who knows comedy, it just makes it that much easier.

Yeah, like TV pros.

Yes.

And there's not a ton of them of that generation anymore that know how to do like situation comedy.

Yeah.

It's a very specific thing.

Yeah, especially in front of a live audience.

Well, it's an interesting thing because,

you know, you can't, like, you know on some level it's there's it's a conceit, right?

That the situation comedy, half-hour situation comedy is a joke delivery system, right?

That has to have this story.

But the characters have to be so defined that they seem natural.

And it's tricky

to pull that off.

It's a real balance.

Absolutely.

But, you know, they're looking for, I wanted to write a multicam because coming up up from Seinfeld and

that era, I am a big lover of the format still.

So they're looking for that.

But

it's great because I don't know if you've seen

Mid-Century Modern.

Oh, no, I hear people love it.

Yeah.

It's so funny.

And it's in front of a live audience.

And I mean, Nathan Lane, you know,

getting his laughs.

He's the best.

Yeah, he's just the king of hams.

And the whole ensemble is great.

So to work with someone like that is

such a joy.

That's great.

Yeah.

I don't know that I've watched one in a while.

You know what I just watched that I was like, I just don't even know why I avoided it for so long, but Someone Somewhere with Bridget Everett.

Oh my God.

Great show.

It's crazy good.

Yeah.

And she's so good.

It's unreal.

That character, it's like, and she's so fucking funny.

Yeah.

And it's not a three-camera thing.

It's like, you know, I don't know what you call that.

Single camera.

Single camera.

But it is so full of deep humor and just so funny.

So good.

I really want to see her live show.

I knew nothing about her.

I hear she's just like a powerhouse.

Yeah.

I have so many friends that have gone to see her and blown away.

It's like

a cabaret show.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

So, you know.

Do you ever write for anybody for that stuff?

Like for Bette Midler or anybody?

No, I haven't.

Yeah.

I haven't.

Because that was sort of a thing for a while.

Yeah.

That kind of performing, and they're kind of funny.

Yeah.

You know, I know that Bette Midler

would use Bruce the Lance a lot to write her stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So people always have their

kind of favorite people.

Now, what's the next step for this Valerie Martinale?

Are you going to hammer out a pilot and then see what happens and then hire writers?

Are you going to work with people?

You know, I think what we're we're going to do, the next step is selling it to one of the, through the studio, selling it to one of the outlets.

As a pitch.

Get the money, the development money to write a script.

Yes.

Yeah.

So we'll see where we land.

Right.

I hope

somebody listening,

maybe.

Yeah.

You know, to find the best outlet for this kind of multicam comedy.

Yeah.

But certainly there is a lot of interest.

You're finding people want to do them again because

they're price effective.

They're cost effective.

Yeah.

And not only that,

you know,

it's multicams, but also I wouldn't go in to pitch something now without a piece of real talent because they want that too.

Right.

If you just go in to pitch something and here's the multicam idea and you know, we'll we'll get somebody to get it.

Yeah, it's too hard.

So to go in with a multicam and a proven talent like a Valerie Bertinelli, that made it very, very saleable.

That's great.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

It's great talking to you again.

Love talking to you, Mark.

All right.

Well, I hope you do well with the book and the comedy and everything.

Thanks.

There you go.

That was nice.

I like seeing Carol.

She's great.

Her book, How to Write a Funny Speech, is available now.

Hang out for a minute, folks.

Hang out.

Hey, this week for full Marin listeners, I went even further into the behind-the-scenes details of my HBO special taping.

And heading into it, I had no stress about the material.

I knew I was loaded up.

I knew the shit worked.

You know, like there was nothing that I was like, this might not land.

But I found from you in the past, you've been stressed out at cutting it down.

Like, that was definitely the case for the last two specials at least.

Yeah, but oddly, when it comes down to the wire, I fucking land on the fucking mark.

Yeah, and

you didn't fret about it at all.

Like, I didn't hear you once say, oh, I don't know how I'm going to do this.

I don't know how I'm going to get this in in 70 minutes.

And you said that a lot, like during, especially the last one from Bleak to Dark.

I remember you saying that a lot, that you were concerned you just had too much and you weren't going to get it down.

Right.

But, you know, oddly, you know, maybe it's from radio experience, maybe it's just from me, you know, because I choose, you know, to do a full hour that's loaded up.

You know, it's, it's, you know,

the last three have been, you know, very full, you know, almost too full.

Like, you know, I could cut 20 minutes off of this thing and do an hour.

I knew from the last week or so of shows, like the ones I did.

in Toronto and then the three at the club in Vermont, which is a smaller room.

Like I definitely was like, just do the shit.

Just do what you're going to do at the special.

Don't, you know, don't go off so you can say to yourself afterwards, well, I don't know because I decided to riff or whatever.

I was like, just do it.

Even if the response is stilted because you're locked in, just fucking do the work and take the hit so you know going in that you're within the time frame.

So I wasn't worried about that.

You can hear that bonus episode along with other bonus episodes we post twice a week as part of the full Marin.

To sign up, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

And I slowed down a classic, kind of.

I rethunk a classic.

For me, it's a classic.

I took the edge off it.

Boomer lives, monkey and the fond at cat angels everywhere.