Episode 1641 - Samantha Crain

Look, you heard me say it before.

I don't know how much time I have left.

There are a lot of things that pass me by, especially when it comes to books, and I worry about having enough time to get to them.

But another thing I always say is there's no late to the party anymore.

And the Foxed Page is a great way to get back in the loop of great literature.

The Foxted Page is a podcast and YouTube channel that dives deep into the best books.

It's basically your favorite college English class, but very relaxed and way more fun.

No exams, no participation, and only books you really want to read.

Your host is Kimberly Ford, a best-selling author, a one-time professor, and PhD in literature.

She offers up entertaining, often funny lectures that will leave you feeling inspired and a little bit smarter.

in a nice literary way.

She digs into everything from J.D.

Salinger to Yellowface, from Stephen King to Madam Bovary, from Pride and Prejudice to Trust.

Want to get the most out of what you read?

The Foxt page is for you.

Visit thefoxtpage.com or find it on YouTube and all podcast platforms.

Lock the gate!

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, Nicks?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Merrin.

This is my podcast.

broadcasting from a room in a building that was built in the 1700s in what was once an attic, a building with a very colorful history that I'm not entirely sure of.

I could do some reading, but it's sort of, it's not a bed and breakfast exactly.

It's a, it's an inn.

I'm in

Portsmouth, Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

And apparently this used to be the house of a ship captain.

And then it was owned by a woman who made clothing and then

some other stuff, YWCA for a while.

I don't know, but it was built a long time ago in the 1700s and renovated.

And now I'm in it.

And it's beautiful.

There's a lot of history here.

And I kind of feel it.

You know, you get into these old buildings and you feel something.

I don't know if it's a real feeling or if it's just something your brain manufactures because you know something about the place, but I definitely have real feelings about New England that always resurface when I'm here.

But anyway, look, a couple of things.

I just want to make a correction because, you know, Canadians are a little bit sensitive right now.

And that correction is that I mentioned I was at the Elgin Theater, but I was actually at the Elgin Winter Garden Theater, which is the Winter Garden Theater at the Elgin, which is a very specific and very special venue.

I think I might have described it the last time I was talking about it with the leaves all over the place.

There's literally the entire walls and ceiling are just covered with a fake ivy that apparently represents real ivy that was there when they unearthed the place behind a wall.

But a Canadian, and I'll honor their request, was like, you know, that's a very special place and the Elgin is really a different theater.

And I'm like, all right, man, I'll clear it up.

They're very touchy right now, and I get it.

Even my joke about the 51st state saying that

now that the Liberal won up there, that we could use it

because of the votes.

They got a little touchy about that, too.

They're like, you can't be joking about that now.

It's a delicate time.

It's a scary time.

I know, I know.

I'm living through it myself.

But know that it was a joke.

I don't want Canada to be the 51st state because I might need to live there.

But look, you guys, I'm out in it.

I've been doing it.

I've been hammering this set.

I've been tightening it up.

I've been overthinking it.

My special taping is this Saturday, day after tomorrow, doing two shows.

And it's just incredible how much

Second guessing I am doing.

But it's also kind of incredible how I've locked into this set and I'm just running it.

I did three shows up in Vermont at a small comedy club, Vermont Comedy Club, which is a great place, and they were nice enough to let me run it there.

And I just locked into this set, man.

And I'm touring now Kathy Ladman, who's very funny.

She's been on this show.

She's opening for me on these dates.

And we were talking about just a whole life of doing these.

doing stand-up, doing different places, doing stand-up, doing, you know,

she's been around a long time.

I've been around a long time.

And just that, the idea of preparing for even like a five-minute stand-up spot on a TV show, just kind of rendering down whatever it is you do to kind of make sense for five minutes, to separate things from other bits and, you know, mashing them together.

There's this weird part of the job that is, is not just doing stand-up.

And, you know, I'm not the tightest act in the world, but when I got to tighten it up, I tighten it up.

Anyway, how are you guys doing?

You all right?

Nothing's getting better, but

we're still in it.

Today on the show, I have an interesting guest.

I'm not sure how I got hip to her.

I think it might have been through Lily Gladstone,

but I got a record

by a native singer-songwriter named Samantha Crane.

She is from the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma.

And it was a very interesting

record in the way that, you know, she sings and

the lyrics, some of them were actually in native language.

But she's also done a lot of work in film and television.

She's been used in shows like Reservation Dogs, and she composed the score for the Lily Gladstone film Fancy Dance.

And it was interesting, and I knew there'd be an interesting story there.

So we had a nice conversation.

Her latest album is called Gumshoe.

But I like talking to

people that come from an entirely different background than I do.

So it's a good opportunity

to sort of

talk about that experience, an experience outside of myself, and

understand

and engage.

That's what we do.

I'm finding as I get older, and I guess I always knew it, that, look,

I'm not great left to my own devices or left alone for too long.

I definitely need to engage with people.

You know, you give me four or five hours alone, and, you know, look, I I can occupy myself, but there's no telling what will go on in my brain.

And then sometimes it just kind of, you know, kind of starts chipping away at my very sense of self.

And sometimes I don't know who I am until I'm seen and engaged with another person.

And then I'm like, oh, here I am.

Thank God I was drifting.

So as I said, we're coming up on the end of the tour here.

There's only two more shows, and that's for my HBO special taping this Saturday in Brooklyn, New York at the Bam Harvey Theater.

Two shows, 7 p.m.

and 9:30.

I don't know if there are tickets, but there may be.

Go to wtfpod.com/slash tour or bambam.org for tickets and see if you there might be some singles.

I don't know really what's going on with that, but if you're a last-minute kind of person and you want to do that thing, come to one of those shows.

It might still be possible.

Oh my God, folks,

what a long journey this has been.

My whole fucking life.

And I swear to God, when I start talking about my past personally and my past professionally, I've got to learn how to sit in the gratitude a bit

because honestly, it's a fucking miracle.

That not only did I land on my feet, but I'm doing okay.

And I've kind of made the arc of whatever success was

given to me because, yes, certainly I kept pushing and I kept trying, but it was elusive for many years.

And then somehow or another, cosmic timing sort of occurred and things shifted.

And I did all right.

I feel like I'm on the other side of it.

I'm still doing all right, but I feel like, you know, whatever my journey was to get to whatever peak I was supposed to get to, I might have hit it.

I mean, hopefully I can stay on this plateau that the peak is at for a little while.

But even if I don't, I have to acknowledge that what a long, strange, fucked up trip it's been for real.

I mean, you know, talking to Kathy in the car about comedy and about my life, I'm like, what the?

It's like I've lived

four, five, six lives.

Maybe I'm like a cat.

Maybe I've only got a few more.

I don't know what one I'm, I don't know which life I'm in, maybe my seventh.

But man, just even being up in this area, it's crazy.

It's crazy having been a touring One Nighter comic, and God knows I've talked about this before,

up in this area, you know, just even in Vermont,

in Vermont, just walking around Burlington.

It's beautiful in Vermont.

We're right on that lake.

What is it?

Champlain?

Gorgeous.

But it's so drenched in weird, traumatic, early comedy memories that there's always a slight edge to it.

There's always a slight darkness to it that is generated from within me.

From my strange, injured core comes these

tainted memories.

It's wild to be looking at something beautiful and have this slight nag of darkness.

And you're like, oh yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I remember there used to be a, used to come up to Vermont.

There was a...

a couple of dates, like a series, a string of dates at the ski areas.

And just, I remember traveling up there with my girlfriend girlfriend, who became my first wife, I think it was probably before we were married, and doing a show at a place called Mother Shapiro's in Killington.

And the guy who owned the place was kind of crazy.

There was a bunch of locals at the bar that were looking at my girlfriend, all weird and creepy.

And I don't even remember the show or how I got through it.

And then I think there was another gig called, it was at a place called maybe Be Made Denny's.

I might be completely wrong about that.

And I remember doing that show with Steve Baliga, who used to do a Walter Brennan impression.

And this was, I can't even tell you what year it was.

It must have been 89.

Is that possible?

Even then, I didn't know who Walter Brennan was enough to even get the impression.

I don't know what happened to Steve Baliga.

Nice guy.

But

I remember Kim and I, my girlfriend at the time, was we used to kind of do one of Steve's lines driving through Vermont vermont on the road because he used to do this thing like in between jokes like he'd just go driving driving driving

driving driving driving and it was just this repetition it didn't really i don't even know if it was what it was attached to initially but uh and i just remember we used to do that and i remember stopping at a state liquor store and buying a a large bottle of jagermeister that came with glasses a gift box Because that's who I was.

I was like, say, baby,

let's stop at the state liquor store and get some some juice.

And I think that brought us closer.

I think so.

And I used to was sort of obsessed with the Jaegermeister for a minute.

Nasty stuff, but it took you somewhere.

And it was like, it had 900 ingredients and it was from a monastery.

I just thought it was mystical floor sweepings that made this liquor.

And yeah, memorable stuff.

And Burlington, Vermont, the front, that was a big college bar.

I remember working there with Dave Cross and just, you know, drunk and whatever.

I can't even remember where they put us up.

I feel like it, I almost feel like it was in the back of the venue, if that's even possible.

And then there was that place, Nectar,

where you get the turkey sandwiches.

I talked to Trey Anastasio about that because they came from there.

But none of those experiences really stand out in my mind as great.

It was just part of this miserable process that's gotten me here.

to this place.

I'm definitely less miserable.

I'm grateful I'm still alive.

I feel like my brain is turning into mush.

I think it's just because I'm kind of stuffing down the stress of what has to happen in the next couple of days.

Got one more show tonight here at

the music hall.

And,

you know,

there's part of my brain that's sort of like, no problem, but the other part somewhere inside of me is just

it's just making my brain kind of

mushy, I think.

Or maybe something worse is happening, but I imagine it's just the stress manifesting in other ways.

Yes.

Yeah.

New England.

New England, folks.

So pretty.

It's a good time of year.

I actually, the last time I was in Vermont, it was during a massive blizzard.

And it's fucking, what is it, May?

And I got to fly from Toronto to Vermont.

I don't know if I told you this.

And all I'm thinking about is snow.

And there's no snow.

I'm just, I can't get my brain around, you know, not thinking the worst.

Oh, you didn't know this,

did you?

I left my computer at

TSA at border security in Toronto.

Fucking unbelievable.

I don't, I'm not, I don't know what's going on.

I don't do this stuff.

I don't, you know, I don't lose shit.

I don't leave shit.

I can't explain it other than usually with TSA, if you have TSA,

they, you know, they never make you take your computer out anymore.

That's one of the big perks.

But in Canada, coming back into the States, they made me take the computer out and put it in a tray.

And I just grabbed my bags and I didn't put the computer back in.

So it's just sitting there at

security in Toronto at Pearson Airport.

And, you know, I didn't notice until I was on the plane from Detroit to Burlington.

I'd flown to Detroit, didn't need my computer, didn't notice it gone.

Then I'm on the plane.

I reach in and I'm like, you got to be fucking kidding me.

God damn it.

And that feeling of losing either a phone or a computer is just so crazy because it's almost like, it's like half your brain.

It's like your whole life.

It's like, you know, everything that makes you you is somehow in that thing.

And there's a panic to it.

And I just was like, you got to be kidding me.

How am I going to get that back?

Am I ever going to get it back?

What's on there?

And, you know, how, how do I even proceed with this?

Do I call?

Do I have to be on the phone with somebody?

Because it's just a MacBook.

Am I going to have to tell some random security border guy in Toronto my password so he can prove that it's mine?

I mean, just the spiraling.

And then I texted my computer guy and he's like, yeah, don't worry about it.

It's just, let's just get a new one in New York.

I'm like, what?

And it's like, yeah,

you backed it up, right?

So it's all in the cloud.

You'll get it all back.

And I remember this being the case when I spilled some

soda on my last one.

But there is something about it just floating out there, just a, you know, a hard drive or whatever they are now, just out there.

But I guess there's the same feeling of it being up in the cloud or down in the cloud in a cloud mill somewhere, a data mill, but uh, but nonetheless, there's a, uh, it feels like an appendage.

You feel like you've, you've lost something, you know, that contains a good part of you.

And over the time, I, I was on the plane, and by the time I got to Burlington, I kind of let it go.

I'm like, well, fuck it.

Is there even a point to try to get that thing back if it's even possible?

And

I kind of let it go, but I'm like, well, do some due diligence.

I mean, you know, why not try?

So I go and I look up Lost and Found at Toronto Airport.

And I'm taken to a site and there's a form you fill out.

And I filled out the form.

Then I remembered I had this sticker on the thing of the titty Sphinx from the Pittsburgh Cemetery, very unique and specific.

sticker.

And I'm like, well, that makes it mine.

I won't have to have anybody open it up.

And then they asked for the serial number of the computer.

And I looked that up and you realize, well, all that stuff's on your phone, you know, what other machines you have.

And I got the serial number.

Then I talked to my Mac guy and he's like, I'm like, is the serial number on the computer?

Yeah, it's on the outside.

It's very small, but it's on there.

And I'm like, oh, so they don't have to open it.

It's like, no, dude.

And your name's right above the login

place on the, on the home page.

And I'm like, oh, so all that panic about.

whether or not I had to let my computer go because I didn't want an anonymous border agent to open it with my password was was made up.

It was never a reality.

And that's what I had to process in order to let it go.

Like then, there's like, it's not open.

It's just this fear of having your entire life, it seems, you know, just available to strangers.

And it's not even a, it's not even a

browser history.

I'm not, you know, I'm not doing the porn on the computer or anything like that, but it's just like, you know, pictures, films, things, writings, recordings.

It's all on there.

You know, I mean, I do a little porn on the phone, but not on the computer.

But anyway,

what I guess I wanted to say, and not that they need publicity, but I do want to give a shout out to whatever the kind of structure at Pearson International Airport in Toronto is that, you know, I filed that claim and I found a picture of the sticker and I put that on there and the serial number.

And I emailed it.

I never called anybody.

And within hours, like the next morning, they're like, we think we got it.

We got it.

I just got an email saying this is your thing.

And I'm like, great.

And then you, they give you options of how to have it mailed to you.

And now the computer is at home.

It's at my house before I even get there.

And it's so amazing when shit like that works out, where you just think, like, well, this is going to be lost in the machinery of whatever the lost and found situation.

I'm, I've got to stop thinking the worst all the time.

The computer made it to my house.

And then I was like, well, watch.

The only way this can end in

a fitting fashion is if it gets stolen off my porch.

It did not.

Anyway, look,

Samantha Crane is here.

Her new album is Gumshoe, and it's available wherever you get music.

And I thought we had a pretty lovely conversation.

And I listened to the music a lot, and it really kind of grew on me in a way I didn't anticipate.

But this is me talking to Samantha Crane.

Sorry, so what is this sport called that you brought me these sticks?

Stickball.

Just stickball?

It's just called stickball.

There's no

in the language.

Oh,

whoa.

I actually don't know.

We just call it stickball whenever we're down at the Cultural Center.

I think they say it's indigenous stickball because stickball is also like what you play in like a playground in New York.

That's like baseball, though.

This looks more like a lacrosse situation.

I wonder if lacrosse evolved out of this.

I don't.

It must have.

I think it did.

And I think like a lot of the northern Muskegon tribes, they

just play lacrosse now.

And then a lot of the southern, like southeastern Muskegon tribes, they play indigenous stickball.

Old school.

Old school.

Well, I mean, it seems like this would be more challenging.

So I imagine the people that play the old school one are like lacrosse for babies.

Because look how small these catchers are.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So

do you live here?

No, I live in Oklahoma.

You do?

Where?

I live in a town called Norman, which is like.

I know her.

I've heard that.

Yeah.

It's, you know her.

Yeah.

I know Norman.

You know her.

Yeah, it's just like a college town.

It's.

I was just there, you know.

I know.

I was at your show.

You were?

Yeah.

Did I meet you after briefly?

I think I did.

And I'm so glad I didn't know that I was going to do this whenever we went to the show because I have a real bad habit of like two glasses of wine in saying something really stupid to someone.

Like if I would have known I was going to do this, I would have been like, oh, I'm going to do it.

Yeah.

No, I'm not going to be able to do that.

I tried to remember after when I came out.

That was kind of a good show.

It was great.

And

how far is Oklahoma City from where you are?

It's like 20 minutes.

Oh, that's it?

20 minutes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't, I always,

I have a, I've had a good time in Oklahoma.

Yeah, we got good people.

I mean, when I went to Tulsa, I was like, oh my God, this place is great.

And then I think like, I could live here.

I'll just move here.

And then you realize like, it's like four blocks, dude.

You know,

it's like one street.

Yeah, yeah.

You're going to move here for the street.

Exactly.

That's actually, that's so right.

It's 100% right.

Every time I have people come visit me, they're like, oh, I should move here.

And it's like, you're going to get over it real quick.

You have to be like from here, I think, to really like appreciate it.

I think that's true.

You know, I grew up in New Mexico and you have

there's a connection to

if you grew up somewhere, it seems to become, it's part of your heart that you can't explain.

So no matter what other people say about it or what you, you know,

how people see the city, you're like, well, this is, I live, it lives in me.

Exactly.

Where did you grow up?

I grew up in a town called Shawnee,

which is also not that far from Oklahoma City.

It's like 45 minutes.

Yeah.

And

lived there until like i got out of high school and then i just sort of bit-bopped around the whole world and lived in various cities for like a year well when you were growing up what was it what was the community it's uh you were choctaw i'm choctaw now the tribe is based in southeastern oklahoma which is where most of my the rest of my family live like my grandparents, my cousins, my aunts and uncles.

Yeah.

But the town that I lived in was not, is not part of that reservation.

It was just where outlier.

Yeah, outlier.

They don't why didn't they want you part of it no no it's just a land thing it's just a land thing yeah it's just where the boundaries are so i wasn't i would only kind of get to be like around

my culture like in the summers whenever we would go and we would go down there for like the entire summer if we were onto the reservation yeah my my great grandpa my great grandparents and my great aunt uncle and my grandparents and a bunch of other uncles and aunts had like a sort of a farm down there that we would just spend a whole summer down there.

You know,

it bothers me, and I always feel bad about it that I had, until like I watched Reservation Dogs, you know, and I talked to Struan,

I had no sense of what that life was like.

And I think like, and I'm always kind of fascinated, but it seems like a great injustice that we don't know in general, that there are these communities that live in almost like a different time zone.

And it's like, and it's so, the, the, the traditions and the sort of way of thinking about spirituality and stuff are so ancient and unique, but like, you don't, I didn't know anything about it.

And I'm an old man.

Well, that's actually surprising because you're from New Mexico and you never had any like sure.

I, we knew, you know, people, indigenous people were around, but it was like they were, the reservations aren't near Albuquerque and the ones and the Navajo nation is a little far away.

And then there was, you know, Acoma and there's Pecos but it wasn't there was no way to to learn the life

you know yeah unless you were like invited in yeah and and and then you could see what's going on you just end up going to ruins yeah no I understand that I think yeah because the reservation system is a little bit different in Oklahoma where it's just like

it's all together it's like mixed in with city borders and

so everybody just lives in the same cities you're just like technically on reservation so you get a lot more.

It seems a little more dug in in Oklahoma.

It seems like it's like that's the place.

And

we don't need to talk about it the whole time.

I just kind of find it interesting.

Yeah.

Because I talked to Lily too, Neil Gladstone.

She's a friend of mine.

And you did her movie.

Yeah, I scored Fancy Dance.

Yeah.

That was great.

The score was great.

The movie was great.

The movie is amazing.

I love it.

It's so good in it.

I love it.

But like, it's a weird habit when you talk to people.

from that your culture where you you know i put people in the position where you're like well you're a representative and i need some information

you but she seems to deal with it pretty well she so she deals with it better than anybody that i know she's like the perfect example of giving you just the right about amount of information that you can like digest yeah me i am like

the minute i start feeling like half comfortable with someone, I become like the oversharer or like, oh, yeah.

And I start saying things that I'm just like, this person has no idea what I'm talking about.

So,

about

your life, yeah.

I'm just like, oh, they want to know.

And then all of a sudden, I'm telling them about like when I was five years old doing something with my uncle.

Yeah.

And they're just like, oh, that's okay.

I just want to know.

Well, that's exciting.

What did your uncle do?

Oh, I don't know.

That was just like a made-up thing.

But I mean, what was the family business out there?

Were they, you know, where you come from?

So,

well, okay, so my in Shawnee, where I kind of like grew up, grew up, my dad owned a powerlifting gym.

Really?

Yes, and he did like a mail order business through that.

And so, and also traveled a lot for that.

And also, do you know what the power team is?

Like, from a Christian?

No.

Okay.

So, like, in Oklahoma,

the Southern Baptists had this thing called the power team, which was like a group of big buff men that would go around and do things at revivals and they would preach and like show feats of strength really like they'd tear phone books in half or like just big dudes just big dudes being like i can do all things through christ yeah tent revivals yeah tent revivals or like in an actual channel yeah and my dad kind of did a version of that too where he would like go around and like preach and play songs and then like rip phone books in half.

In a Christian angle?

Yeah, it was like very much part of the Southern Baptist.

It's so funny.

I had a t-shirt that someone got me.

I don't know where it's years ago.

It must have been some Christian gift shop.

It was Christ like almost like in a push-up position with the cross on his back, like with muscles.

Was it a Lord's Gym t-shirt?

Maybe.

It said, like, his pain, your game.

I think that's a Lord's Gym t-shirt.

That was a very big

deal in the 90s, especially around Oklahoma.

Really?

Yeah, it became like a...

Yes, it must have been a popular t-shirt.

I really want another one.

I just thought it was so cool.

I was wearing it ironically, but I did like the shirt.

Yeah.

Just this rip Jesus cross on his back, pushing up.

I'm pretty sure that

we had one of those t-shirts like cycling around my house when I was growing up.

So funny.

So you brought up Southern Baptist?

Yeah.

Was there an element of traditional spirituality always?

So that was

weirdly, no, because

the Choctaws, especially in Oklahoma, are very ingrained in like the Southern Baptists just through.

Yeah, yeah, they got us.

They got us.

We even have like this thing.

I mean, part of the reason why I started writing songs in the Choctaw language is because the only songs that really exist on recording in the language now are basically translations of Southern Baptist hymns.

So we have like a big hymn tradition in the tribe where they sing the

hymns like Jesus songs in the Choctaw language.

And And I was just kind of like, I would like there to be something else for us to sing about in our language.

But, so no, it was all pretty Southern Baptist.

Yeah, and so like a song like, which one was it?

When Will You Remain?

That's a Choctaw language song that you just, but that, because I couldn't, I didn't know what you were saying.

So

you don't know how to, you don't know how the language?

I really wish I did.

But that's just one of your original songs.

And now, how does that land with people in the community?

Is it exciting to them?

Yes, because I think they all feel the same way, where they're just like, they wish that there was,

they wish that they could sing in their language, but maybe not about Jesus.

Because there's so much baggage attached to that with Jesus.

Yeah, with the boarding schools and the

colonialism and all of that.

So I think they want to be able to connect to something that's like further back.

Yeah.

And do you speak it fluently?

No, I'm still like in the learning process.

Yeah.

I mean I

am dedicated to that like that as a practice to learn the language.

That's something that I'm that takes pretty high priority in my life other than music stuff.

Yeah.

But it's it's it's it's kind of like the further in that you get, the harder it gets because it's not just about learning words and vocabulary.

You're basically like changing how you think about things because that's what language does.

Sometimes

there's not like

side-by-side comparisons of like English way of thinking and Choctaw way of thinking.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.:

What do you feel is the theme, the main difference in terms of how it, like, is it more picture-oriented kind of thing?

It's very verb-heavy.

Okay.

So everything is about

movement and change and doing.

My thing that I'm kind of obsessed with right now is

there's no word for is or are

in the language.

So, for instance, like if I was going to describe you,

I could describe you, but because I'm not connecting you and a description with the word is or are,

it's basically like a value saying, you are only how I can describe you right now

or at that moment.

That doesn't mean that how I'm describing you is who you Right.

And I find that incredibly freeing and like kind of Buddhist, you know, it's like

you are multitudes, you know, you contain all sorts of things.

And you're not locked into like, because your perception of me is not me.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So there's sort of a nice boundary there

and a respect almost.

Yeah, it's great.

And just being able to think about things like that, think about people that way, think about how you're perceiving the world around you.

Right.

It, I think, it's like very freeing.

It like unlocks you from a lot of this idea of

how I'm perceiving my life is how it's going.

Right.

That like what is,

you know, is

relative to your perception of it.

And then you can separate yourself from that and kind of be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's good.

They had it figured out, man, I think.

Yeah,

it's interesting to think about like

what the

sort of roots of that is because it's sort of like it it innately respects autonomy right of people it's kind of it's kind of great yeah and when you're working in the language to write songs you know it must give you a whole other poetic sort of um tool almost yeah because when i'm writing in english my go-to is like me me me me emo me me yeah yeah yeah this is how i feel this is who i am yeah and

then when i write in that language it sort of like unlocks this whole whole other thing, which is like,

this is what I'm perceiving.

Yes.

So it's very much like a more observational way of writing, which I find just like unlocking like a whole different

aspect of like writing and creating.

Yeah, and there's something about like just, I think, the folk tradition in terms of like that's a perception thing, but you are sort of documenting experience or

journeys of hardship and stuff that

is not necessarily self-referential at all yeah you know so wait now I want to go back to this the power gym the powerlifting gym so did you like did the whole family work there kind of deal yeah it was very much a family business yeah so

like we had the gym and then my dad also competed in powerlifting like he would but there's no money in powerlifting so it's like you do it for the love of it and so we would travel in like this van to different uh competitions so he could um they just had powerlifting competitions around yes yeah like states you went to different states

even different countries

and um he would

basically my we had like our own jobs so he would set up in order to like pay for these trips that he would be going on he would set up like a little table um with like vitamins or like protein bars or like equipment so he could like sell them to like other lifters yeah he was very resourceful honestly and so i would usually head that up and that was back whenever they had the credit card things that was like the big oh yeah the clunky like that had to make the imprint yeah so I had one of those that I would operate at like age you know eight where I'm just like taking people's credit card imprints and then my brother would

work this little video camera.

My dad would set up a video camera because he found out that all of these lifters wanted to watch their competition, but people didn't like really own video cameras.

So like a VHS camera?

Yeah, so my brother would set up a VHS camera and film the whole meet.

And then my dad would sell copies of the tapes

to people.

And we just traveled around and did that like a lot.

It's almost like it's not quite like, I don't know why I associate it with wrestling because it's not really like that, but it seems like the culture is kind of like that.

It is.

Did you see Ironclaw?

Yeah.

It's like that kind of underground wrestling world where it's like very family-oriented because you have to have people that will like work for free for your dream basically yeah so that's what we were doing we were like the whole family working for free for my dad's dream where did your dad get this obsession from his dad his dad was like one of these like muscle beach people like out here yeah yeah like they lived They lived a lot of places whenever he was growing up, but he was out here and then up in Oakland for a while and stuff.

And he was a powerlifter.

Yeah, he was like just really into the whole Jacqueline fitness sort of thing.

And so I think that trickled down to my dad and his brothers and sisters.

They're all powerlifters?

They, so, yes, they were.

My dad was the one that kind of was like, rose to the top of the pile.

Was he a champion?

Yeah.

Of some kind?

He was like, he was one of the best to ever live, honestly, for his weight.

Yeah.

Like if you mention his name to anybody that's in powerlifting, they'll know who he is.

What's his name?

Ricky Dale Crane.

Such a great name for it, right?

It's a powerlifting name.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

So, wait, so were you powerlifting?

Yeah, when I was little, yeah.

Well, up until I was like 16, I competed.

How were you, were you ranked?

I was.

I got like records and stuff.

But the thing was, is like, I didn't really like, I didn't like it.

I just liked being good at something, I think.

Well, sure, it seems like a fairly limited scope.

I mean, it's like, it's not even a sport necessarily.

It's a, what would you call it?

It's a competitive thing, but you're doing one thing.

You're not playing.

There's not a team element.

No, it's an individual sport.

That's right.

yeah, yeah.

So you were good, huh?

I was, but just purely, like, genetically,

low center of gravity.

Like,

right, but like, are you, are you still ripped?

No, no, it's gone.

When was the last time you put some weights on your shoulders?

I mean, probably like a year ago, and it was like very little, I'm sure.

It's very like my.

But I bet you, muscle memory, you still got the form in it.

Oh, yeah, I do, actually.

One time I was like at the YMCA and I was just doing like a squat.

Like, Yeah.

And some guy was like, you have great form.

And you're like, let me tell you.

Let me tell you.

This was hammered into my head from a very young age.

So when does

your dad's not around anymore?

He passed away in October.

It was very sudden.

Oh, sorry.

So you have just one brother or how many?

One brother, yeah.

And is he still in the powerlifting racket?

He runs my dad's gym now.

It's still there?

Yeah.

Where you you grew up?

It's well, it moved around a couple of times, but it is still in Shawnee.

Like, he had it in a garage, and then he had it in

like another shopping center building.

And now it's like in a building that's kind of near his house.

I wonder he just chose that because of his dad, huh?

And he focused on that one thing.

I think he just saw that he was really good at it.

And he just wanted to be the best at something, I guess.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And I imagine your brother kind of expanded the gym to include more things.

No, I mean, like I said, my brother has just now like gotten this handed to him because my dad passed away in October.

So like my dad worked, or my brother worked there,

but he's like just now gotten it.

And it's still for powerlifting?

It's very much like the, it's not like a walking into a Planet Fitness.

It's like,

you know, like the same eight guys who spend like three hours there every day and like go take a smoke break in between their sets.

And like, you know, it's like that kind of very gritty.

You walk in and you're like, oh, this isn't right for me.

This is

yeah, no, if you're like a woman that's trying to like tone up, this is not where you go.

Like, it's they probably call it the scary gym.

Yeah,

probably.

So at what point do you gravitate towards music?

I think probably like

15, 16.

I just.

You're starting to realize powerlifting is not

life.

That's not for me.

Yeah.

I was, I mean, a couple of things like converged where I was realizing that I was more of like a creative person.

I mean, I always like wrote and stuff growing up.

Oh, you did?

Like, like poetry, stories, poetry, stories, things like that.

Yeah.

But I didn't have like an example of that in my life.

I mean, being in a small town, you were either doing FFA, like agriculture stuff, or you were doing sports.

Yeah.

And that was kind of it.

So I think

I was just starting to like listen to music more.

And there was guitars at our house because my dad played.

Oh, he did.

But I'm very stubborn, and I don't like people teaching me things.

So I'm like, I, or I didn't at the time.

What was the music in the house?

Like 60s folk, you know, Simon Garfunkel, Bob Dylan.

Well, those are good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Town bias.

Yeah, my dad was like a huge folkie.

Really?

Yeah.

So that worked.

Yeah.

Could have been Bob Seeger.

It could have been, could have been Bob Seeger.

It could have been, I mean, could have been anything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But like he was specifically a folk guy.

Yeah.

He was a folk guy.

Like stories.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And did you find that, like, was there any influence from native community that seeped in or was that, were you distant from that?

Well, I mean, I, like I said, I was like culturally a part of that, especially during the summers.

Yeah.

But the music element of our tribe, like what we have

contact with, is mainly just like social dances.

Yeah, right.

So there's not a lot of...

It's interesting though that there was not that many contemporary kind of rock bands and stuff.

There's like two or three.

Yeah.

There is this like there's I'm kind of just now discovering this, but there's this guy that does a radio show called, I think it's called Wateka Radio out of Minnesota.

Yeah.

And he's Lakota, I think.

Yeah.

But he has a radio show where all he plays are like contemporary native musicians that were doing stuff between like the, I guess, the 50s and 70s-ish.

Yeah, yeah.

So there's all of these like undiscovered records and tapes and stuff that he just finds and he plays these on his radio show and it's very cool.

Well, there was a there's a collection, I think it was put out by maybe Numero or Light in the Attic that is all kind of contemporary native music from like the 60s up.

Yeah, I've heard that.

Yeah.

It's kind of interesting.

And I'm kind of obsessed with this guy, Jesse Ed Davis.

Yeah, he's from Norman where I live.

That guy, man.

Amazing.

What a fucking great guitar player.

Yeah.

There's like two solo albums of his that are really good.

Yeah.

He kind of, he kind of hit the wall kind of hard, though.

Yeah.

But he did that.

He did that solo on Doctor My Eyes, the Jackson Brown.

He's good.

I was just listening to an interview with him the other day where

it was on this What That Go radio.

They like played it.

Yeah.

And he was talking about how he was like hanging out with George Harrison.

He needed like one extra song for his solo record.

And so George like played him this song.

and he was like, I could tell he didn't really want to like give it to me because he wanted to do it himself, but I like talked him into it and I cut it.

And so like he got like one of George Harrison's songs.

He played with everybody, Leon Russell, he played with Lennon, I think, Harry Nelson.

I mean, he was like a real studio guy here.

They just released a biography of him.

But, all right, so you're listening to folk music and

you figured out how to play on your own?

Yeah.

I think I just went and bought like a guitar chord book from like the local music store.

Yeah, all you need is four chords, really.

Yeah, and that's really what I started out with.

It was like G, C, E minor, D, and I just

started like writing like poetry to music, basically, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And when do you like, um,

and so your influencers are primarily the folk records?

They, I mean, that was sort of my, that was the easiest like entry level.

I was definitely listening to a lot more

pop, like, or whatever was on the radio at that point.

Yeah.

But

the folk thing seemed like low barrier entry, you know?

Like, you could listen to that and be like, oh, all I need is a guitar and then I can, like, write a song.

You can make it your own real, yeah, because you don't need anyone else.

Yeah, you can visualize that as a teenager a little bit easier than, like, oh, I need four people and amps and like, yeah, and like a drummer and a bassboard.

Like, that feels very difficult when you're like 15 or 16.

So, how long did you just play solo?

When did you start playing out?

So there was like a little coffee shop in Shawnee that had an open mic, and I did that for a couple years while I was still learning.

And I'm sure it was very bad.

I think I was playing like

Radiohead covers or like Bob Dylan covers or something.

Oh, Bob Dylan covers.

And like, which ones?

The times they are changing.

Oh, of course.

Right.

Yeah, you got to do that.

You got to do that one.

You weren't going to tackle like visions of Johanna.

No, no.

Or like, what's the one that, like the hurricane that's like seven seven minutes long or something?

I tried, like, I play sometimes.

I'm not, you know, I play with some guys sometimes, but we play out.

And I decided, and I'm an okay player, but I decided, like, let's do ISIS.

And, and, like, about like midway through the song, I'm like, I'm not that confident in playing and singing.

And I'm like, we've still got like half of this.

I'm so over it.

Well, it's just like if you lose your kind of, you know, mojo in the middle and you start to second guess yourself, you're like, I can't get out.

I'm trapped.

I'm trapped in ISIS.

It's a good song, but oh my God.

So, but

are you building any sort of following at any point?

Not until

I was really just doing like open mics and then I'd drive to the city, to Oklahoma City and do open mics.

Yeah.

You could like find, there was like a classified section in like the local arts paper that just like listed all the time.

And like what years of this?

Like in the early 2000s?

Yeah, it would have been like 2002, 3, 4.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But at what point does someone say, let's make a record?

I think how that kind of moved into me doing this for like a more of like a job thing was that

right after I,

well, after I graduated from high school, I tried college for like a semester

at Oklahoma Baptist University.

Oh, okay.

It was in Shawnee.

Yeah.

I didn't know what I wanted to do.

So that just was like, well, well, it's here.

And then I heard about a musician's like commune colony thing on Martha's Vineyard.

Really?

Yeah.

Huh.

Where you could like apply, you could send in a tape.

And if you got picked, then you'd go live there for like eight months.

Right.

And they would teach you how to

like record your own music on Pro Tools.

Where did you find that?

I just like heard about it through

like friend of a friend.

And you got in?

Yeah, I applied and I sent in, I think I sent in a cassette tape recording of me doing the times they are changing it, I'm pretty sure.

If I remember correctly.

And I got selected to do that.

So I just went out on to Martha's Vineyard and lived there for like eight months.

Was that the first time you were out of Oklahoma?

No, I mean we were traveling a lot for like the power of the past.

But this was the first time that I felt like I was like doing something attached to music.

And on your own.

Yeah.

And again, you got to take the ferry out there.

Yeah.

And you're stuck on that island for a a while.

Yeah, you're stuck.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And you got to deal with the island people.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, I'd rather deal with the

island people than like the rich people that come in for like a month or two in the summer.

Yeah.

Martha, like you, yeah, I used to do a gig out there because I lived in Boston for years.

And you got to take that, what's that, something bluff where you take the boat out and it go across and then you're just on the island.

But it's pretty.

Yeah.

It is.

Isn't that the island?

Isn't that the point?

I might be thinking in Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard or Nantucket, where they have to, they're not allowed to paint their houses any different colors.

Yeah, they have a lot of weird rules.

Like no

chain restaurants are like allowed.

Yeah, they all have to be like gray houses.

The gray, like, gray.

Exactly, yeah.

So where, where is, um, how many people are in this thing?

There was like 20.

Oh.

So we all lived like in this big barn, like in bunk rooms, and we just like play guitar?

Yeah, we just jammed, honestly.

Jammed and learned how to like use pro tools and we put on like fake variety shows like once a week we'd all like form bands with different people and so that's the first time you're playing with other people yeah it was the first time that I did a lot of like any any sort of like collaboration or like learning how to

I learned a lot about like song structure I think like just from seeing how other people and electric was there any uh were you guys playing real bands was there drummers and stuff yeah real bands oh real full bands so that must have been exciting yeah it was exciting.

It was good.

And after that, you felt more confident?

Yeah, I think I felt like, well, I've come out here and I've like

done music with other people.

And so that sort of, and

I met this girl named Beth out there who we sort of just decided we would start like touring.

This was the days of MySpace when you could basically message venues on MySpace and send them like a song.

And if they liked you, they would just, they book you.

Yeah.

And so we just did that for like two years.

We just got a, I think it was like a Bonneville, like

an old Bonneville, which had a massive trunk.

And we put our guitars in there and we just booked ourselves tours for like two years.

Did you play together or just wanted your like a duo?

Oh, really?

Yeah.

What's she up to?

She still does this.

Yeah.

She lives in St.

Louis and she does like singer-songwriter stuff.

What's her name?

Beth Bombara.

Oh.

Yeah.

You guys still friends?

Yeah.

I mean, we're acquaintances.

Like we've kind of like set we've gone our own separate ways ways a little bit but like we're still friendly were you doing all original stuff?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, we were.

And and like so that got you kind of like that toughened you up I imagine.

Yeah.

I mean that was like the true road dog days where you're like

you know, getting change off the ground and putting it in a sock so you can like buy your coffee the next morning and like staying with the craziest people, you know, because you can't, you're not like at a level where you can like get a hotel or anything.

So like fans or people that just people that were at the bar, bar, not even fans, like, you know, we're like playing on stage and we're just like, if anyone's got a place for

how am I still alive?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Did it get weird?

Oh, yeah.

So many, so many weird things.

There was like one time where we were in Nebraska

and this guy was like, we, we like went back to this guy's

apartment.

Yeah.

And he asked us if we wanted like anything to drink.

And I think Beth was like, I'll take like a gin and tonic if you have it.

He came back with like a Walmart tumbler, like a giant 16-ounce glass

full of gin and tonic, heavy on the gin, you know.

And we were like, We're gonna go, we're gonna sleep in the car.

Like, we were just like, This isn't good, this is not that's so scary, man.

You would never think to do that now.

No, I don't.

I think you have to be just totally naive and like feel

invincible as a kid.

Oh, you're so lucky it didn't get too fucked up.

I know, yeah.

So, after that, what leads to

you know, the studio?

How does it, like, how, what brings you the attention to, you know, do a record?

We just traveled around for like two years, just touring a ton.

And then

we,

there was this guy that,

oh, that's what it was.

Beth's boyfriend was in a band called Barry, which was like, I think they were based out of Chicago at the time.

It was a very like Midwest, part of that whole like Midwest post,

like cat and jazz sort of,

I'm trying to, I wasn't very,

like, into all of that music.

It was like very much the Midwestern, like, emo post-punk sort of scene that was going on at the time.

Right.

And they were sort of part of that.

And they let us come open for them on a tour.

Oh, good.

And the lead singer, Joey, he had like a little studio.

And so between tours, we recorded like my first EP.

And then from there, I started doing what everyone tells you you shouldn't do, which is like send an unsolicited demo to like record labels.

And that's what I was doing.

I was literally just like mailing my EP to different record labels.

And

one of them ended up liking it and re-releasing it.

It was kind of funny how it came about.

It was.

The label was called Ramzer Records.

They're based out of North Carolina.

Yeah.

And their big band is the Avett Brothers.

Yeah.

And

people love those guys.

They do.

Yeah.

They love them.

It's like there's so many chunks of music that I miss.

You know, I know Judd Apatow did like

a big documentary on them, right?

I do.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I don't know these guys at all.

They have a very like insular like fan base.

But it's sort of like of the Americana ilk.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because that like it seems like because it feels like you kind of came up in that world a little bit.

I did, and it was like not the right world for me to come up in i don't think so no i think it was so stilted for me like it i think it really affected

like how long it's taken me to get to the point where i'm like making the records that i want to make i think i put out a lot of records where i was like trying

because the label that I was on was very much like both feet in that world.

Yeah.

And that was how I was being like marketed.

Well, it probably made sense to them, you know, like aside from being a female artist, but being a native artist and having that representation in that type of music was probably, they were like, yeah, this is, this fits.

Yeah.

And I wore like a plannel shirt.

Yes.

So you're good.

So they were like,

you're good.

Come on.

But I mean, I thought that first album was good.

It sounds good.

But you didn't feel like

the one, Songs in the Night.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

But, but, but, but as I listened to the arc of your stuff, I could tell that you were kind of fighting to find your own groove.

But I mean that band sounded pretty good to me.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I mean the band was great.

Yeah.

And I mean I think we always like put out stuff that

like sounded good enough, but it just wasn't like what I

wasn't matching.

It wasn't matching what I was giving up like a lot of myself to like try to fit into this world that I actually didn't know much about.

I didn't even know like what Americana was, what they were like.

It's kind of hard to define, isn't it?

I think it's actually more of like a fashion sense than it is like a music, honestly.

Like, I think that's more like a scene than it is, like, a type of well, that happens with music.

I mean, it just,

there's a, I guess there's a roots element to it, and it must all come from, like, you know, it almost feels like some sort of, I'm sure people have thought about this because I know the Americana world, and it seems to come from almost like, you know, that the band, you know, that sensibility of,

you know, integrating all these kind of fundamentally American sounds and styles into this one thing that is kind of blues, kind of country, kind of, you know, whatever.

But, but there are artists that kind of fall into that, but they, but you're right, they might not call themselves Americana, but certain artists were like, well, if we're going to, if there's momentum behind this style, this idea, this brand, you know, why not be in it?

Yeah.

But,

but, so when do you, but you're still doing all your own songs.

Yes, yes.

So, you know, so that was being represented.

Yeah, it was.

But I think I was, because I was young and very unsure of myself, I was maybe

trying to write songs that maybe I am not the best at writing, you know?

Like trying to kind of make something fit into like a

genre or something.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it seems like by kid face, you're in you.

I think I'm like getting in there, yeah.

But I really don't, I really don't feel like I'm fully

getting into

like finishing a record and being like, that was what I wanted to make until I started like producing my own records.

And that wasn't until Small Death, which is like just the last record and then the EP.

That record's beautiful.

Thank you.

Because the sound is like, you know, Jason Molina?

He's, he's my, like, really?

He's my,

excuse me, all natives.

He's my spirit animal.

Yeah.

I love him.

Yeah.

Because like when I listen to that, I mean, like, through in some of the other records, you know, I can hear a through line of, you you know, folks structure and style and some of the ways you write.

But like on that one, it was because I'm like, he kills me.

He's amazing.

It's the best.

But I definitely heard that in that record.

Well, good.

I would love to channel anything about him.

He was, he was a true, like,

just

like a true poet, a true, like, honest, open, raw nerve of the truth.

The vulnerability of it.

So vulnerable.

Like, I got choked up when you got excited about him

because there's something about

what he makes present and available that at times it's almost hard to take.

Yeah.

And so when did, did you ever meet him?

I didn't.

There's actually a song on Kid Face that is written for him.

It's called For the Minor.

I wrote that song for him.

That's a great song.

I wrote that down.

Yeah.

I was actually,

we were supposed to be like playing some shows with them that later that year, so I was going to get to meet him, but he passed away before that happened.

And so I wrote this song just like kind of commiserating that.

But like, he,

I had a lot of friends that knew him and stuff.

So I kind of got the down low about him through that.

But I had this moment when I was, it was very early on when I started writing songs.

I was probably 16 or 17.

And I

used to drive up to Oklahoma City a lot to go to this venue called the Conservatory, which was just like a DIY sort of

punk club.

And there was a record store right next to it called Size Records.

And this was back when you would kind of browse a CD shelf and buy a CD just because you like the cover.

Yeah, sure.

And I bought a

Songs Ohio CD.

I think it was The Lioness, just because I liked the cover.

And I was driving home after the show that night, and I put the CD in my car and was listening to it on my drive back and

I was just like full like crying more than I've ever cried in my life like at age 16 not having felt anything that this guy has gone through because he's you know older than me I haven't experienced that in my life at this point and just

like I'm getting like emotional thinking about it just like losing my mind at like how in touch it seemed like he was with his thoughts and his like emotions and i was just like i want to do that like that's what i want to do yeah and and sort of elevating his struggle yeah you know on all levels it's it's hard to even explain it because i i don't know that a lot of people know him they should but

Yeah, well, I mean, he wasn't that much older than you.

No, he was, yeah, I think he's like maybe.

I mean, he died in his 30s, I think.

Yeah,

I don't know off the top of my head.

Yeah, well, no.

Maybe seven, eight years years ago.

Yeah, yeah.

And I don't know.

Like, I came to him later.

You know, I didn't know his stuff because that label, which label was it?

Secretly Canadian.

Yeah, Secretly Canadian.

He used to send me records.

Oh, cool.

And, you know, they sent me that Magnolia Electric Company record with farewell transmission.

And I was like, what the fuck is this?

Yeah.

And then you got to go back and you're like, oh, and then you're in that guy's spirit, which is so heavy and

beautiful.

And it's not just the words.

There's just something, there's certain performers that have something in their voice where you can feel the weight of it

of whatever they're going through.

And Towns Van Zant has that to a degree where you listen to it and you're like, this is, there's a sadness here that is like unfathomable in a way.

And with those kind of performers, I like, I have to, I can only listen to it because you got to prepare yourself.

Yeah, you can only listen to it at certain times.

Yeah, you know, I mean, oddly, I can't even listen to Brian Wilson, and that's pretty upbeat stuff, but

he's so troubled, and I can feel that.

I don't know what that, what that resonates, how that why that resonates.

I tend to think that it's because I have a slightly depressive father, so there's a neural pathway in my mind that that lives there.

And then when someone can be in it, but you know, kind of bring it up, like it hits me very hard.

Same.

I think mine comes from

the idea of loneliness.

Like anytime I'm, I grew up with a very like insulin.

I spent a lot of time alone.

Yeah.

And so I have a very

introspective, like lonely thing that I can get into.

Yeah.

And it gets real dark and real sad real fast.

And that's, I think, when I hear someone like jason melina singing in that way yeah i can just imagine that he's like all alone and it's like navigating and navigating that yeah and it's like hitting something really deep in you yeah i i guess that's it you know and it's so specific and i i think that's an interesting thing about

art in general that you know so many of us and even because i you know the way i do what i do it's it's pretty specific and it has to resonate with with the person people that are going to you know connect with that But it's hard to sort of realize, like, well, it's not everybody.

Because there's part of you that's sort of like, I want my stuff to be for everybody.

And then at a certain point, you got to just be like, well, I'm helping these people.

Because there is a help element to it, right?

Yeah.

Do you feel that about your audience?

Yeah.

I think, you know, I mean,

just from the perspective of being like a songwriter who's trying to pay their bills, there is that element that always pops up where you're like, I wish more people got this or something.

But honestly, I think the way that you just put it is perfect, which is just like, not everyone serves the same purpose within art.

I was just up in

Alaska, in Sitka, Alaska, at the end of January, and I was helping out, I was doing like a fundraiser for a tribe up there called the Klingits.

It's a Kixadi clan of Klingit Indians.

And they gave me an honor name called Shikaikliksa, which is, I don't think I'm saying that completely right.

But what it means is it comes from a story that means like

due to colonialism and how things have gone, all of their culture and traditions have been put in this box and there's like a lid on top of the box.

And there are people that come along that push the lid just a little bit off so more of the traditions and more of the culture, more of the language can come out.

And the verb, the action of pushing that lid off is the word shikaikliksa.

So my name means to push a little bit off the edge.

And that's how I feel like my position as an artist or a musician is.

It's not to be the one that brings everything to the masses.

It's the one

that just pushes like

pushes music or art or songwriting or whatever just a little bit forward so that way somebody else down the line can like grab something there and utilize it

in their practice.

So I think,

yeah, what I'm doing is not necessarily

for the masses.

It's for me, it's for my community, it's for the people that come to the shows that like connect really deeply with it.

But it's just sort of like

another addition to

what we need, which is just human vulnerability and connection.

That's literally all I'm trying to, and that's what you do in your shows.

Yeah, yeah.

And

it's kind of a weighty,

there's a heaviness to it.

But, you know, I'm 61 and to

really accept

that there is a, not limitations, but

once you get to that place where you are who you are, I mean, you know, if you're not happy there because of

the reaction to you or how many people react to you, you know,

it's just a recipe for unhappiness.

You have to accept it.

Yeah, and it's not bad.

You know, but like for years I was just sort of like, and you saw what I do.

I was sort of like, why doesn't everybody love this?

I mean, doesn't everybody experience what I'm experiencing?

And they don't.

They don't.

And, you know, the people that do kind of lock in in a way where where it hits them differently than the people that are like looking at you like some totally different thing.

They don't understand it, but they're like, all right, they're getting laughs, but the anglers is sort of like, well, she's a little sad or

he's got some problems, but it was entertaining.

But then there are other people that are like, oh, thank God I'm not alone in this stuff.

Yeah.

So, but when you talk about the community, like, what is the reaction

in generally

your experience with all the different tribes that you deal with in terms of performing and whatever.

I mean, I think.

They must be excited.

Yeah, because in general,

the sign of

a living

language is that not that people are just speaking it or like that it's still around or that there are speakers of it.

It's that if people are making like writing books in the language or if they're writing songs or you know doing something with the language.

And so I

think like I wish I could do more but because I'm like kind of what I explained earlier where the further in that you get the harder it gets because it's more about like a mind change than just learning the language and so I'm in that situation now where I'm having to be more serious about like the the the mental capacity of writing in the language now but i think everybody that i've come across um

they

they're they're like really starved for wanting new contemporary songs in a Indigenous language.

And so, I mean, I get, I feel like

it's just been great to see people respond to that.

Yeah.

But in general.

But you still got to play to the masses a little bit.

Well, yeah.

I mean, I got to play to like

English speakers.

Yeah.

But that's what, I mean, I'm an English speaker.

So it's like, I've got feelings inside.

I've got to get out now.

I can't wait to learn the Choctaw language in full.

Right.

But, but I just, I imagine not unlike, you know, just, you know, having a voice from that community is, is

representation in a way where

we're still moving forward, you know, and that we, you know, we, we still have who we are, you know, whether it's English or not.

You know, and because I, I mean, I think I talked about that with Sterling and stuff.

And I read something somewhere that he had said something to you about activism.

Do you remember?

Oh, yeah.

It might have been

like he had a podcast for a little bit, like before he got

turned into real big Sterling Knights.

But we did like a conversation on there once.

And he did say something really interesting to me once, which was about

there's always this feeling like you're not doing enough, I guess, in quote unquote activism of like pushing forward the

like

agenda is not the right word, but you know, pushing, pushing forward like the identity of Native peoples or something.

And I think I was expressing that to him, just feeling like,

I'm not going to these like protests and I'm not going, because like I've got a job and I've got to like do this.

And he was like,

you

just being

an active like Choctaw artist, that's activism.

It's activism to be living, doing what you're doing at this moment.

Right.

Something to that.

Well, you said, because we weren't supposed to be alive.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

So that was just, I mean, I was like, oh, yeah, okay.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Good job.

Good.

Well, so like coming into like, so with small death, that that you feel was the sort of portal to you in exactly the way you wanted it to be.

You know, why that record?

What do you think got you to that place?

Well, that record was really interesting because I was at a really dark time personally because I had just gotten into a pretty severe car wreck that like really affected my,

like I couldn't use my hands at all.

What?

Yeah, I had like gotten into a bad car wreck and there was a lot of like skeletal and nervous system like damage.

What happened?

Were you on a highway or in a?

I was just like going through like a four, like kind of a

busy like four-way intersection.

And like I got

that.

That's my biggest fear in life.

Yeah.

It's, I still flinch going through like four ways.

Yeah, it never happened to me, but I'm always scared of it.

Yeah.

And it kind of messed up my, it, it did a lot of damage to like my shoulders and my neck, which affected my arms and my hands.

Yeah.

And so I got really depressed because I couldn't do, I couldn't play guitar.

I couldn't like sit down and like, right, I didn't think that I could like sit down and write songs.

I couldn't even like hold a cup, you know.

Oh my God.

And I got really depressed.

I was just like laying in bed for like,

you know, six months, seven months, just not in a good spot.

And

I finally

started reaching out to like different therapists, physical therapists and stuff.

And I started working through a lot of the stuff.

And,

but in the meantime, I just had like a voice recorder that I would just lay in bed and like kind of hum songs into.

Oh, yeah.

And not thinking like I would ever get to play them or anything.

I just thought this thing that I've spent my whole life doing, which is being a musician,

I'm not going to be that anymore.

And now I have to like figure out

what I am now.

I mean, this is where that's the danger of

is and are if you're thinking about like really

attaching like a caricature to yourself the minute that that gets taken away.

Who the fuck are you?

You know, that's dangerous, which they had that figured out, right?

They were like, we're not going to attach one thing to a person.

Yeah.

You are a lot of things.

So, but I was attaching one thing and it got taken away from me and I lost it.

Right.

But the voice you found within that to save your brain

is what that record is.

Yeah.

Wow.

So that became

when I finally got sort of,

well, the other weird thing about that is that's when I started using open tunings too, because as I couldn't do like bar chords or things, as I started getting use of my hands,

a friend of mine suggested just tune it to where you just have to hold down like one string or something at a time.

It'll be easier on your hands.

And that's when I started kind of

going in that direction.

So that, like, you used open tunings on that record?

Yeah.

Well, that's kind of when I started using them.

Yeah.

Well, that, well, because that creates a whole other vibe.

Yeah, it's a different vibe.

And there's more space for other things to be doing stuff that you normally wouldn't hear.

Right.

Yeah.

Because like, I, you know, Keith Richards talks about that open G-tuning as being kind of magical because of, because, you know, when you have those open strings, the, the vibe is totally different.

Right?

Well, it just, it gives you, it lets your brain go, oh, I've never, I've never noticed that space being open before.

Right, right.

So what can I put there?

Yeah.

It just opens opens up the arrangements and everything, too.

But that was, yeah.

So eventually I got, I could use my hands again.

And I went back to these little voice recordings and I started,

I started making demos and I was just like, I've got to turn, this is a record, so I've got to make the record.

But that's so amazing because like if you write like that, as opposed to like, you know, writing on paper or sitting with a guitar and trying to, you know, or if you already have a

melody or some chords, I don't know how you do it generally, but the connection connection to yourself when you're just sort of like, it's just like, this is,

you know.

Do you do that like with comedy?

Do you just ever like walk around or like

talking to yourself?

No, what I usually do is I think.

And then

step one.

Yeah.

Is I think, and then like if I make a connection in my head or I have a different way of looking at something, you know, I'll just, I'll make note of it.

And it's not a joke per se, but I know there's a turn there

if it's not a story.

You know, that, you know, things for me, usually I'll have an idea, but most of it evolves in real time on stage.

Because it's almost like I corner myself.

Like I have

a place I want to go, and then I'll just start going.

And I'll hope the part of my brain that makes things funny will step in and save me from embarrassment.

Nice.

I love that.

That's so, I mean, that's, I feel like that's how I live my life.

I'm just hoping that like I'll make, I'll make up the like punchline before I get caught with my pants down.

Exactly.

Yeah, that's the whole thing.

That's like, that is the edge of it, you know?

And then over time, they kind of evolve.

You know, like

with

this bunch of stuff, you know, in dealing with the

political situation and my particular audiences and having to address that to sort of bring the people together and then kind of this idea, I don't know if I was kind of doing it in Oklahoma yet.

Did I do the evacuating with my cats story?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's sort of built into something because I had this.

Because I'm pretty heavy, you know, I can be pretty, it can be pretty heavy, a lot of that stuff, and I'm riding this edge.

But I knew I had to address the political situation and that has a different tone to it.

And then I got it in my head.

It's like, all right, dude, you've established that.

So now can you just be entertaining?

Can you just, these people just like, let's just go.

Let's, I mean, you've been doing this a long time.

Nothing has to be, it doesn't have to all be so heavy.

So that cat thing was just sort of this gift.

And the way it kind of built out, you know, people, it's just hilarious.

Yeah.

And then I get into trauma and stuff.

That's what I, that's kind of like what I do at my shows.

I tend to be, have little like quippy jokes and stories in between, which is.

Someone has, well, a lot of people have noted to me like that what I do and say between songs is very different from the songs.

And it's like, yeah, because I know that like this shit is heavy.

Yeah, we're going in.

And I'm not trying to like make y'all want to kill yourself by the end of the night.

Like,

I would like you to understand that like you can hold both things at the same time.

And not only can you hold it, but you have to.

You have to, but it also shows the sort of

that

you as a person,

you know, has, it's a broad spectrum.

You know, like, and sometimes I I think that's a liability for me because I have a fairly, it's not just a big personality, but like I, you know, I have a lot of different wavelengths that I go on.

And anytime you can engage as many of those as possible, I think it's, it's, uh, it's, it's a good thing as an expressive person.

Because when you get locked into that thing that you said you were fighting with, you know, that there no are or is,

that when you see yourself a certain way and then you kind of get locked into that, it becomes

a box and you know, you don't acknowledge, you don't take chances.

Do you know?

Yeah.

And when you do songs, if you want to lighten things up with your personality,

I think it's the best thing.

But some people just want to lock into the like, just do that thing.

Just make me sad.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, honestly, it's like probably easier to like market.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

So like it's a lot easier when someone has like a specific

persona.

Yeah.

She does this.

Yeah.

He does that.

And then you get in, and then when you meet these people and you're like, what?

I don't even know what you're talking about.

Yeah.

Like, because, oh, Marin's a cranky guy.

I'm like, no, I'm not.

I'm not, I'm not, you know, that kind of stuff.

Had a cranky moment.

Yeah, yeah.

Or that's some part of me.

Yeah.

But, you know, like, I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty expansive.

Yeah, but,

but that's if they can't fit you into a box or you don't box yourself, it becomes sort of trickier to sell.

And then you've got to just do it on your own.

Yeah.

So once you've, when you put out Small Death

and you got your hands back after?

Yeah, I mean, I still have like some issues, but I can still, I can play again.

But how did that inform the new record, gumshoe?

How did that, like what you did with Small Death?

Because like I just, I did a movie and there's a book.

It's about Bruce Bringstein making Nebraska.

Okay.

And, you know, he was in the middle of kind of doing the songs for Born in the USA.

And then he had this kind of existential crisis and he holed himself up in you know some rented house in new jersey and with a guitar and a four track and he did nebraska do you know the record yeah so

and and he became obsessed with the sound that he got on the cassette um and after they tried to do the songs in the studio he's like no i need the cassette i want that to be it and there was no way to translate the transfer the but but the journey of having of him having this

you know he needed to make that record and it's a dark record, you know, and he comes out of that and he does born in the USA, but he almost had to exercise himself.

But, and, and I, and eventually, I think it did inform some of his other stuff, or it gave him a whole other range of

ways to express himself.

Did you find that with it?

Yeah, I think, I mean, it was, it's like what you were talking about earlier, about like not trying to put yourself in a box, you know.

I think that record, A Small Death, allowed, that was the first time I like produced a record myself.

Yeah.

And it was the first time I just fully trusted like every decision and every feeling that I had.

And that opened up a whole new,

and then I saw like how well it was received.

And so that opened up like a whole new

world of just trusting myself.

Confidence.

Yeah.

Confidence and also just like

not

trusting myself, but also when you trust yourself, it's not like your

opinion is the end-all, be-all.

It's that you actually feel more comfortable receiving ideas and criticisms from other people

because you know that

you have a trust that it's going to end up where it needs to be as long as you're present.

Right, right.

You can collaborate, but you don't, you're not out of control.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ariana Grande talked about that, that she always sort of knew what she wanted.

And she's working with big, you know, kind of pop machines, but it always comes back to her.

It comes down to her.

She sit in this very seat.

Yeah.

And they're like, rub, I want some of her like good vibes to rub off on me.

Yeah, yeah.

She's something.

Yeah, but that confidence, like collaboration is a beautiful thing.

And

you can find things that you wouldn't have found on your own.

It's so necessary for growth.

Like because you have to be able to like

accept,

like receive, not accept, but receive like what other, how other people do their work, or else you're never going to learn anything new about yourself.

And also, trust their art.

Yeah.

You know, so how did you make gumshoe?

Who is it?

Well, so gumshoe, even though it has ended up being about collaboration when we got to making the record, when I was writing the songs, it really was about opening myself up to collaborating with like people.

And I'm talking about collaborating on like an interpersonal level, like collaborating in relationships, collaborating in

friendships, romantic relationships, family relationships.

And I had always been such a lone wolf, so like

unsure of myself.

So I put up this really big

wall to protect myself from what other people might have to say about what I was doing.

And

I kind of got to this point where I was like,

I'm only understanding a very small

percentage of what the human experience is if I don't let other people into this

life.

And I ended up in this,

ended up, that sounds sad.

I was in this relationship for like three years with somebody who was

an addict.

And I was struggling a lot with

what the right thing to do

there was

and

trying to be vulnerable and let this person in, but also trying to like protect myself,

it was just like kind of an impossible situation.

Well, yeah, it's like the codependency thing.

Yeah, codependent no more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good one at P.M.

Lady's book, isn't it?

Yes, yeah.

The amount of like

NA meetings that, you know, or like that I've been to over the past three years.

Did you go to Al-Anon and stuff?

Yeah, Al-Anon, yeah, a lot of this stuff.

Codependency is a fucker.

Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, I'm, I'm still, I still learned so much from that, just in terms of like taking a chance on

letting people just accept me for me and letting me accept people for who they are.

But at the same time, it was just like I was also trying to apply that to my friendships and my family relationships.

Well, yeah, not let yourself be erased, you know, have boundaries and, you know, show up for stuff and not just be taken advantage of, all that stuff.

Yeah, but you don't even get to that point of learning how to do that unless you kind of let yourself get taken advantage of.

Does that make sense?

Well, yeah, but you have to be vulnerable and like make those mistakes before you can get to that point.

Right, but

you don't choose to do that.

It just happens.

Yeah, it just happens.

Yeah.

And then you're like, this, I need to figure this out.

Real this in.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

But I mean, once you learn how to have some of those boundaries and let those vulnerabilities out

in a way that, you know, you can handle it, what you do learn is like you've taken a lot of shit.

And so you can kind of get a boundary, you know?

It's hard.

Yeah.

So that's what gumshoe sort of comes from?

Yeah.

And it comes from that whole process of like realizing that you have to open yourself up and be vulnerable.

Maybe not doing that in the most like, smart or productive or safe way.

Yeah, yeah.

And then doing that process of like finding your boundaries, finding trusting yourself, trusting your own voice in a situation and your your own like

feelings, and then being able to utilize that in a in a more confident way, I think.

And it ended up kind of informing how we recorded the record too, which was just like me letting in a couple of co-producers with me and also recording the whole record like in a room together.

Oh, good.

And we're not like separate and doing stuff separately.

We're just like trusting each other in that moment in the room.

And

just sort of like, yeah, trusting that you can say,

that's not really what I was thinking.

Or like, what do you think about this?

And just knowing that it's going to end up how it needs to without putting this like very angry like walls of like

of like rules into a recording situation.

Yeah.

And you have time, you know, to kind of play it out.

That was the biggest thing for me is because I've always worked worked on such a tight budget that everything has to be like planned and like,

you know, you've got a certain amount of days to do this, certain amount of days to do this.

But with this one, we purposely went to this recording studio in Indiana because I could afford to just get it for 12 days.

Yeah.

So we could have time and like the luxury of like

of letting ourselves sit into a

environment and job.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah.

Like, I think the one that popped out at me was that the Be Attitudes one.

Because that seems like you kind of like you know like i'm ready to to find a life yeah yeah it's like i need to yeah i want

i want i want a piece of property yeah yeah yeah

i'm i'm here i'm a grown-up and i you know there's things i kind of want yeah and i have to be ashamed of that yeah i mean honestly at the wrong time though it's like who wants to buy a piece of property right now i don't know i maybe are they cheaper or more expensive i mean sometimes when these horrible times happen It's still more expensive, but maybe it'll get cheaper.

Do you want to stay in Oklahoma?

I don't really have a

I don't know that I have a preference.

I know that Oklahoma will stay like a massive part of my life and my future just because it is just part of me so much.

I don't know that I really fit in anywhere else, which is funny because I don't even feel like I fit in in Oklahoma, but I feel the most myself there.

Like when I'm out here, I just feel like everyone's looking at me like,

who is that?

Like that person.

But nobody's, nobody's thinking that.

I know that.

But that's me and my, I'm always viewing everything from

up in the air.

Projecting.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like no one could possibly, you know, yeah, that's a weird thing that project.

Because you know what, no one's thinking about you that much.

I know.

I know that.

I used to, I had a drummer named Anne.

I love her so much, but she was, she's, and she's so beautiful and she would always spend so much time on her hair and makeup.

And, and every time we would walk by like a storefront window, I'd catch her kind of like looking because she wanted to make sure that like she was always like presentable.

And

I remember saying once, I was like, nobody's looking at you.

That was probably not right, though, because she was so beautiful.

So maybe everyone was looking at her.

Well, it's what you think they're thinking.

Yeah.

And what you think they're judging.

You know, most of the time when you think somebody's thinking about you, they're just like in their own world.

Yeah.

Because we all are.

Yes, exactly.

So, but the record's great.

And I'm glad you brought me a vinyl.

Yeah.

And but, like, before we wrap it up, like, how did you get involved with Fancy Dance?

Um,

so I, how did I get it?

Erica, the director, just reached out to me, and I'm assuming, so she was one of the writers on Reservation Dogs.

Yeah.

And the Indigenous arts community is pretty like tight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I've done

music for Sterling's like older movies.

Yeah.

And I did some music for some various um

indigenous like podcasts and stuff through the years

and I'm I'm assuming yeah Erica just kind of like knew who I was through that yeah and we had a talk about doing this I had never scored something that big you know I'd never done like a feature yeah and

we just

scoring is different than just writing songs of course you got to engage with the you know it is collaborative in its nature you know you're you're trying to like

make somebody else's vision happen more or less, not your own.

And I think she just wanted to have somebody that was,

that knew what that world was.

I mean,

it's shot in Oklahoma, you know, it's dealing with Indigenous people.

And I think I'm very comfortable with what that environment is like physically on screen.

I mean, it looks like where I live.

So it's like, I know what that environment sounds like and feels like.

I know those people.

And

we just had like a conversation.

I think she had mentioned wanting it to feel

very

like organic.

I think, I don't know if I had the idea or she did, but we were just saying like it's the majority of the movie is like two people

and they're moving around a lot.

And so I wanted to make it feel like the only instruments that were being used were things that you could literally just stuff in a backpack and take with you.

Yeah.

So I really was utilizing the human voice a lot

and

like a tiny keyboard.

So it was stuff that I knew that I could just put in a backpack and take with me.

I was trying to keep it very small the whole time I was doing that.

That's smart.

Yeah.

You had a whole vision for it.

Yeah.

Good for you.

Well, it's good talking to you.

Step one.

Think.

Think.

Exactly.

I'm glad we did this.

Yeah.

Thank you very much to you again.

Nice to see you.

There you go.

Samantha's new album, Gumshoe, is available now.

Hang out for a minute, folks.

People, just ahead of Mother's Day, we posted a special bonus episode on the Full Marin.

It's a collection of some moms talking with me about mom stuff.

Amy Poehler, Paula Poundstone, Allie Wong, Elizabeth Banks, Wanda Sykes, Brooke Shields, and my very own mommy, Toby Marin.

All right, but so you're you're happy then, you're relaxed, and I'm finally doing okay.

Yes.

Well, I love you, mom.

Is that it?

I'm done.

Well, what do you want to talk about?

I don't know.

I just want you to know that I do love you.

Okay.

And I'm super proud of you.

And I really, I can honestly tell you, Mark, that when I hear your interviews, I'm in awe.

I just can't imagine how you

come about bringing all these people out like you do.

I think it's totally amazing.

All right.

And I'm in awe.

What can I tell you?

That's the truth.

Well, that makes me happy to hear.

I'm glad that,

you know,

I've impressed you and that you're proud of me.

And I'm glad you found this niche that is so great for you.

All right.

I'm a little choked up now.

Thank you, mom.

I love you, Mark.

I love you too.

Bye.

Bye.

To get bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin.

Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Here is a classic guitar riff from the Marin Vault.

Boomer lives,

monkey and the fonda,

cat angels everywhere.