Episode 1628 - Nick Thune

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Lock the gate.

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, Nicks?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast.

Welcome to it.

What is happening?

I have been out here.

I've been on the road.

I'm still on it.

I'm in it.

I'm living it.

I'm recording this in a hotel room, not even my hotel room, because my hotel room's not ready yet.

So I had to

borrow the space from my opening act, Allie Makofsky.

We just checked in.

She went for a walk somewhere over in lovely Charleston, South Carolina, which is where I'm reporting from.

I'm coming to you live from Charleston, South Carolina, where I have no sense of anything other than very southern, but, you know, in the glamorous southern way.

It seems very specific, and people love it.

People love it here.

Maybe after I do this, I'll get out and walk around.

I think I walked around last time.

I don't remember.

I was probably in some state of panic.

But I have to tell you, that is receding a bit.

I'm not sure why, but I have to assume it's a good thing.

But...

What can I tell you before I get into where we've been and what's been going on?

Nick Thune is on the show today.

Nick Thune has been on the show twice.

He was on episode 189 and episode 780.

Both episodes, I talked to him a lot about his Christianity, which is interesting.

We're now at a point with this show

where people that were on that long ago have had entire chunks of life.

Entire chunks of life.

And

a lot of stuff has transpired.

And Nick has been through the fucking ringer that brought him to

the edge for sure.

Not just to the edge of his faith, but I think really, to be honest, after talking to him, it sounds like to the edge of his life, literally.

So it was great to catch up with him.

And he's got this new special out called Born Young, which is available on YouTube.

I believe it's produced by Nate Bargettsi.

He tours with Nate.

This morning, we were leaving the hotel in Charlotte, and there was was a couple checking out and they recognized me.

They're like, hey, you know, what's going on?

Good show last night.

Yeah, we're heading out.

And

the woman was like, yeah, we heard that you, you know, on stage, you talked about you stopped at a Dunkin' Donuts

on the way down at a truck stop.

And I'm, and, and the guy was like, I didn't, I thought you guys would be on a tour bus.

I thought you guys like, you know, you're just stopping at Dunkin' Donuts at truck stops.

I'm like, yeah, I don't tell anybody.

But that's how I roll.

I rent a car where I land, and then I drive around the region I'm performing in, just me and who's ever opening for me in a car for hours.

No tour bus.

Everybody assumes we're rock stars.

I don't even, I don't have a road manager.

I don't have nine guys I'm on the road with.

I don't even know what I would do with a tour bus, but I felt a little bad that maybe this guy was a little disappointed.

Or maybe he wasn't.

I don't know.

This is how I do it.

This is the way that is most practical for me to do it.

I don't need a bus.

I don't need a bus for just me and my opener.

You know, there's part of me that thinks, like, well, maybe you should just do it to do it.

But it would be sad, I think.

It would be a little weird to roll up on a theater and just

me and Allie climb out of the bus.

We're the rest of the guys.

This is it.

We just needed the whole bus to carry.

We have two bags each and one's a carry-on.

So, but we thought it'd probably be easier to take the bus and just put the shit in a trunk anyway look i wanted to mention something uh

this guy that i had on the show years ago he's got something coming out drew friedman is his name he's a cartoonist an artist he's one of my favorite um i guess it would originally be underground comics he's he's just a brilliant uh portrait artist and and also comic artist and uh there's this big documentary about him it's called uh drew friedman vermeer of the borschbelt It's directed by Kevin Dougherty.

And Drew and Kevin are going to be screening the dock at the Arrow Theater in Los Angeles this Saturday, March 29th.

There's a panel discussion afterward with Dana Gould, Cliff Nesteroff, Leonard Malton, Meryl Marko, Stephen Weber, and screenwriter Scott Alexander.

And you can get tickets at the Arrow Theater or go to AmericanCinematech.com.

I imagine I'm going to be out of town.

Yes, I believe so.

Or I would have been part of that, right?

I would have been part of it.

Also, tomorrow, I'm at Largo in Los Angeles.

That's Tuesday night, March 25th.

Then Skokie, Illinois, I'm coming to the North Shore Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, March 28th.

Joliet, Illinois, I'm at the Rialto Square Theater on Saturday, March 29th.

Grand Rapids, Michigan for the GLC Live

at 20 Monroe on Friday, April 11th.

And then Traverse City, Michigan at the City Opera House on Saturday, April 12th.

Also new dates announced for Dynasty Typewriter in Los Angeles, Monday, April 14th, Saturday, April 26th,

and Tuesday, April 29th.

Those are all at 7.30 p.m.

I'm coming to Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Brooklyn, New York for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th.

Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all of my dates and links to tickets.

So it's been, it's always kind of enlightening to be out here.

You know, I get all worked up about the South.

I get all worked up about politics.

But ultimately, you know, I have plenty of people that come out to see me at these shows, even here in Charleston.

It didn't sell as well as Charlotte or Durham, which was great.

Got over a thousand people there at Durham.

And what a great town.

Saw some people I knew there and had good food.

And then we drove out to Charlotte.

And I'm always like nervous about Charlotte.

And I don't even know why.

I'm like, you know, what is Charlotte?

It's like a bank city.

I don't know why I've got this weird thing.

And then when I get to these places, I realize, man, I've been here more than once, more than twice, probably three or four times, one way or the other.

I think I did the Oddball Fest, the first Oddball Fest in Charlotte.

And I don't know why I have this thing in my head.

I knew Raleigh Durham.

was going to be fine, but I get this thing in my head in Charlotte.

And then I just, I realize that sometimes you can't identify why a place or something makes you uncomfortable until you like get there and you're like, oh yeah, I didn't think I didn't feel great about my show last time.

It was that simple.

It had nothing to do with the socio-political population of Charlotte or the nature of the region or anything.

I just remember getting to the theater and I was like, oh yeah, this theater was a little hard to tell.

to keep your pace going because the laughs didn't come back at me like you expect them to.

And I realized like it was one of those nights where I thought like, oh my God, every joke is a journey.

Every joke is a mountain

but this time we just we did uh it was great i mean it was it was just uh it was great we it i mean you get the hang of it but that's what i realized that the thing was that was what was in my head and it kind of me up it's it's just weird you know you get out and and you talk to people and things become kind of a a different game.

Like I went to this place.

It was, it was sort of interesting.

You know, I went to this place.

I was trying to find vegan food in Charlotte.

And I looked, I found this place.

It was like a soul food, plant-based thing.

And I went to this place called the Kitsch.

And I've never been to these places where you just walk in and there's a wall of screens and you order on the screen and then somebody brings it to you from a door.

And several different restaurants.

So I imagine it's just like an industrial kitchen behind that door with stations for each of these different types of food or restaurants.

But there was sort of like a regular counter and seated restaurant, a brick and mortar restaurant connected to it.

And I wasn't loving what I was seeing on the plant-based thing.

And then I started talking to the guy.

It was a Japanese restaurant.

It was called Dozo Japanese American Kitchen.

I'm talking to the guy there, the guy who owns the place.

And,

you know, he started with a food truck.

He said he could,

he didn't have any real vegan stuff on the menu, but he saw that I was kind of frustrated or that and he recognized me.

He's like, you're Mark Maron.

He said, I saw you at the comedy store a few months ago.

You were great.

And I'm like, thanks.

I'm like, I don't know if I want to eat that food.

He's like, I'll fix you something, man.

I'll make you something vegan.

And he just set out and he kind of cooked me a fresh batch of like mushroom and tofu fried rice.

And we talked to, I talked to him about stuff

about the business, about moving from the truck and into a restaurant and how that was going.

And then we just started talking about the nature of the state and about, you know, Charlotte being blue and the state being, you know, red and being what it is.

But then it was sort of interesting about him running a business.

And when he was younger, he didn't really have a sense of the impact of politics or what's going on on necessarily his life or his business.

But now

the talk was about what are these tariffs going to do?

What is this new economic policy going to do?

Is he going to be able to survive?

as a business with food prices being jacked, getting produce from Mexico.

So it is kind of fascinating how many people are relatively detached from the impact of politics on their life and sort of consumed with the satisfaction of

ideological actions

taking place that make them emotionally satisfied.

Like

if you're cruel and

intolerant and the idea of hundreds of thousands of people being thrown out of the country because Trump said he was going to do it, it's satisfying when you read about it and and go like, yeah, fuck you.

I mean,

it's hard for me to empathize or get into the brain of that, but nonetheless, it's just an emotional reaction to bits and pieces of information or news or policy that is

completely destroying the fabric of our government and our society.

But some people are satisfied by that.

But the actual trickle-down effect of like...

connecting the dots between how these policies and how the tone of the country affects your life.

I don't know.

I don't know if it's going to happen to everybody.

I don't know if people are still going to be satisfied, but it was interesting to talk to somebody who just had this moment of like, oh, this has a direct impact on my livelihood.

And obviously, everybody's fired from the federal government and people are deported and that too.

But this guy, not, you know, he's just running a restaurant.

Anyway,

it's good to talk to people.

I feel like that's been some kind of theme of how I'm approaching dealing with this stuff in my life.

You know, talking to people becomes essential.

All that said, it's been, you know, it's been okay.

I don't know what's going to happen tonight.

You know, like I said, Durham was great.

Charlotte was great.

Tonight, you know, by the time you listen to it, it'll be dumb.

But I'm looking forward to this.

It was kind of a weird situation the time I was down here last time, but the weather's been perfect.

And I don't know.

I'm just trying to tighten up that set.

It's very, very tricky.

to be doing like an hour and a half, hour 40 on the regular.

And I got to get that down to 70 or 60 or 70 for the special.

And you get very attached to these bits.

And I got to pull out some major chunks to get this kind of

singing at the length of time necessary for the special.

Last time I talked to you, I said I went to get the eval and get the medicine.

And I talked to you about how the

just having the label or the condition named, you know, obsessional anxiety, it brought me some relief, but it didn't last long.

But nonetheless, now I'm in that zone where I'm going to try the medicine.

I'm trying it.

I'm on it.

I'm on it right now.

Can you tell the difference?

Does it feel different?

Do I feel like a whole new person?

Does it sound like I'm just taking it easy, that I'm keeping, I'm taking everything in stride and keeping things in the right context in my brain, compartmentalizing properly, not letting one or two miserable fucking things that I let into my brain destroy the rest of it for the afternoon?

Does it sound like I'm doing that?

Can you tell that I've taken the load off, that I'm no longer that self-conscious or aware of exactly what's going on in my mind at every given point in time and trying not to react to that as if it's a reality?

Does it sound like it's working?

Is it working?

But because I've had this, I started talking about on stage the other night, just this idea that my resting mind doesn't rest.

And there's this, I think I may have talked about this before, and certainly it's not an unknown thing for people that do this.

I think your brain,

if you have a brain brain like this, is going to imagine the worst.

You're going to play it out in your head.

And then anything that happens

short of that is a fucking victory.

It's a relief.

And I realized I've been doing this thing that's kind of, it's kind of fucking nuts.

And I don't know why I started doing it.

But along those lines,

I've been doing this thing where when I fly now, like getting to the airport and all that stuff, just, it's aggravating.

It's anxiety.

And even though it's my life, just converging on the point of departure causes me a lot of stress.

There's a lot of things to do.

There's a lot of things to get through.

And there's, you know, there's the whole act of leaving, whatever that entails for anybody.

But, you know, it's just normal flight stuff.

But when I get on a plane, and I used to be a guy who I was terrified of flying for years.

For years, I would have to stay up all night.

I would drink.

I would do drugs.

I would do whatever it took to try to just, you know, not

be terrified to take off in a fucking airplane.

And it was taxing.

And when you lived like that, you know, you'd get to wherever you were going and you were immobilized from just what you had to do to get through the fucking flight.

And at some point, I let go and I thought it was a spiritual moment.

I thought, you know, if I'm going to understand the concept of powerlessness, this is a great example of that.

And I do that.

But the steps I take in my brain just to fly on an airplane, like once I get on the plane, I'm like, all right, dude, you can still get off.

Like, if you have to, you can still get off.

If you got a bad feeling, you can still get off.

You know, you can stop everything right now.

Tell them to turn back and let you off the plane.

It's not, you know, it's still possible now.

But then once it hits the runway and you know, the engines go and you know, we're taking off, uh, you know, that shifts.

And then I go into, well, you can't get off now.

Uh, and you know what?

You have no control over what's happening.

You know, you signed up for this, you got to get to where you're going.

It's out of your hands, dude.

You're in the fucking air.

And then for a few minutes, what I do is I just picture very graphically

the plane, the plane crashing.

Like I've just pictured that moment where everyone around me realizes it, this is it.

And just the screaming and the terror and the feeling of what it would be like to, you know, go out that way.

How much time would you have to think about things?

And then just the black emptiness of death and just the chaos and terror surrounding me.

I picture it graphically to the point where it's just horrifying.

And then somehow or another, I relax into flying.

Now, I could live without those two steps.

I really could.

And

I don't know how it really falls into or under the rubric of thinking the worst so anything happens is better than the worst.

Because look, I mean,

let's say the worst thing happened and the plane starts going down.

Am I going to be sitting there like, you know, I knew this was a possibility and I know exactly how this is going to go.

So I'm good with it.

I don't think so.

And again, and the other thing about kind of trying to deal with this psychological issue that I have around this brain,

there's always the question of like, well, dude, what if that's all you are?

What if that's who you are?

What if this is how you think?

Maybe this is where you understand things in this mode of, you know, heightened anxiety.

Maybe this is your process.

Do you want to fuck with that?

What if it diminishes your ability to sort of generate or process or

understand in the way you do?

Because a lot of that's pretty good.

What if my life is really just panning for gold in a river of panic, just waiting for those nuggets?

What if that's it?

Well, to answer that question,

I think we have to go with age and

where I'm at in my life.

And I think the answer to that what if that's what it is is okay well maybe that's true but I've had a fuck enough

I've had enough I'm tired I've had enough

okay so look I had Nick Thune back and we talked about the real shit and we talked about the the arc of his life since I talked to him years ago and what he'd been through his new stand-up special is called born young you can watch it now on YouTube and this is me talking to Nick Thune back in the garage.

I mean, you just pressed something that sounded like it did something.

Didn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

No,

it's not giving me what I usually have here.

See, that, you know, that.

Which is a feed into the computer.

Well, no, I have it, but usually there's two channels.

There's two mics.

It's separated.

You know, there's a track for each mic, even though it's the same track, basically.

But I'm not getting

any of that.

Maybe we should try some step work.

Well, I'm actively in the steps right now as we speak.

Yeah.

Yes,

I think I'm keeping it together pretty well.

I'm mildly obsessed.

I know that at a certain point, I will acknowledge it's out of my control and I'll let go for now.

Yeah.

But but it's not going to go away, Nick.

Do you think your sponsor will hear about this?

No, I don't.

I'm not in touch with my sponsor in that way anymore.

Yeah.

Day-to-day, I lost my mind

kind of thing.

I did actually, though,

make a sober call in a real way that I hadn't made in a long time.

I wasn't going to drink

or use drugs, but I was

spiraling out and I couldn't get out of it.

So I called a guy that we probably, you probably know him.

You know, he didn't see it coming.

You know, he doesn't look at me.

You know, he knows I'm in recovery and I helped him get sober.

But he certainly didn't expect just sort of like, listen, man, talk me down call.

And he did a good job.

He kept it in the zone, the step zone, said a few things, and I was able to kind of get down to a baseline of of, you know, a mild vibration of

insanity.

Yeah.

How about you?

You an everyday call guy?

No.

And

I'm between sponsors right now.

Shopping around?

I just actually,

at a meeting the other day, I looked around and I thought, I need to really kind of pick this, you know, and it just...

I had a great sponsor.

He moved.

I just couldn't do it anymore.

And then I'm, everyone always wants to be really.

Sounds like a relationship with a

partner.

Well, everybody do the long-distance sponsorship thing.

This is tough, man.

We didn't see each other enough.

I'm sorry, buddy.

But he,

I'm not a, I hate the phone.

I, I, talking on the phone is really hard for me to do.

Um, I really am an in-person guy.

Yeah.

So, but yeah, I,

I, I, they, I always get treated with kid gloves, too.

I feel like I need somebody that doesn't do that.

You know, somebody that's like, I don't care if you're traveling a lot.

Yeah.

You're doing this.

You know, like, rather than like, oh, it's okay, buddy.

You travel.

You know,

you got a lot going on.

No,

I had one of those at the beginning.

How far along are you at this point?

Six years.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, you're going pretty good.

Yeah.

I mean, I had one of those at the beginning and you're just pounding away, doing all the work, doing, you know, 90 and 90, going to meeting every day or so for like five years.

But now it's like, where am I?

I'm up in the 25-ish years, right?

So I'm going to have 20, is that correct?

99?

So I'm going to have,

oh, Christ.

What does that mean?

So 99 to 2025.

That's 26 years.

Yeah.

So I'm going to have 26 this year.

It's crazy.

Yeah, that's a lot.

But I am in touch with sober people.

You know, some of my friends, my best friends are sober, but we don't do the sober talk.

I have a sponsor, but we don't seem to get together anymore.

It's like for me, I don't, I've never had I had 12 years at one point, and then, you know.

Was that AA sober?

I would say that it was 10 years AA sober, and then two years of just like

white knuckling when I moved to L.

A.

And then what what why'd you what do you track the relapse to?

The falling apart of your life?

No, my life was fine.

I mean, that caused it.

Yeah, for sure.

But, you know, and I was I was 28 and I just thought, I think I can do this.

You know, I have a cocktail?

Yeah.

And I went to,

I had a gig in Vegas, and I landed, and I just thought, I'm going to get a beer at the

casino.

And I did.

Nice beer.

And then I got a mixed drink that I never really had because I got sober when I was 17.

And it was like absinthe.

Yeah.

Absinthe.

Wow.

Did you go to a casino in France?

In the 1800s?

Well, I mean, it could have been as far as I know.

But I woke up, you know, five hours later to pounding on my door it was the security guards I was 20 minutes late from being on stage and it was like oh it this is immediately affecting my career job my everything you were doing a show at the casino yeah and uh did you blow it that show was horrible yeah

I mean it was and they were angry they were so angry do you remember the last time I talked to you

on this show for like

Yeah, like a long, long time ago?

Yeah.

Yeah.

How many years ago was that?

I could look it up.

It's kind of fascinating.

Because I don't think we've had a real sit-down for probably.

No, it's yeah, it's probably been over 10 years.

Yeah.

Right?

I would say.

This is the kind of research that other podcasters do where they have a guy at a computer doing.

Maybe 11 years.

Maybe it was 2014 or something.

That would

yeah, I feel like that's it.

That would be helpful to have a guy over on a computer just

saying, giving me the information I need immediately.

Yeah, you could just turn around and say.

Yeah, can you get there?

Or they know intuitively.

Oh, God.

I think that's what makes your podcast special, is that you don't have that guy.

It's a long time ago, dude.

It's longer than you think.

2011?

Yeah.

2011.

Wow.

Yeah.

Dude, that's fucking crazy.

That's a long time ago.

I think that was probably during the time that I might have even been resentful.

Or we have that.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, you know, it's funny is that we had a good conversation, and I was insecure about it after.

And you said, it was great, buddy.

You're going to sound, you know.

And afterwards, I got some really great,

really nice messages from like Pat and Oswald.

And, you know, like, hey, that's, I love, I love, you know, hearing.

But we really got into religion was the thing, because I was really, at the time, kind of.

Full Jesus.

I was coming out of it, I was, I was already out of it, but I was definitely not.

You're already out of Jesus?

I think I was.

I mean, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm out of Jesus even now.

Yeah, I'm, but I think I was out of Jesus.

You always have Jesus.

Once you have Jesus, once you have Jesus, you always have Jesus.

You can't get rid of the guy.

He is.

He just can't.

He's waiting.

He knows.

God, take a hint.

Yeah.

No, you can't.

Once he's in there, you know what I mean?

You want to go?

But I do remember there was,

so at that time, you felt like you were getting out of the organization.

Yeah, I was already, when I moved here,

I actually immediately got involved with a church downtown

and was helping with volunteering on the weekends with like 14, 15, 16-year-old kids.

Right.

Which I always loved doing because.

I got a lot of help from that when I was young.

That was really cool.

But yeah, I just,

especially in LA, once you get to the LA church, the networking, the, oh, this guy is working.

Oh, he was, he might know people that can help me.

And maybe because I'm a Christian, it would be more likely he'd help me.

Oh.

And not that I don't want to help anybody, but I like to help people that I think are, I don't know, if I could even help anybody at all, to be honest.

But, you know, the people that I like to work with or collaborate with or do anything with are people that I admire.

And

if you don't make something, you know, if we don't fit fit just because of God, that's not enough for me.

Yeah.

And that's not a mean thing.

It's just, but they think that that's enough.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it seems like there's a,

it's very interesting in terms of what's happening in the country and everything else.

And

with Christian branding and business, it's a big thing.

Yeah.

You know, so it's weird that in 2000, whenever you came out here, that was not a thing.

But now those people wouldn't even have to ask you.

This whole network of

Christian, you know, rock music, Christian movies, Christian influences.

It all has the same filter, too.

That if you were to go, like an Instagram filter, like it all is just ran through the same thing.

Yeah.

And there's two or three people on the top.

Yeah.

And they're pretty close to being canceled

and rotating a new one up, which just happens over and over again.

And then they have a documentary series on Netflix.

Yeah, when Christians go down, they go down big.

They go down hard.

Yeah.

And

I had that realization recently, you know, with a mutual friend of ours.

And

I do think it resonates with me that when you really realize that the struggle is real, that even if you put it into the framework of sin

or of,

you know, transcending the moral parameters of what Christianity is supposed to be, like the me, the need to get straight with Jesus and maintain that relationship is a daily struggle for some guys.

And, you know, it doesn't mean they're going to win.

No.

And when they lose, it goes down hard.

And it's because

they don't actually follow through on the personal relationship aspect is what they, you know, it's like Christianity is having your own personal relationship with God.

Yeah.

And so that should mean that we have falling outs, and that's not up to you to judge.

But if you're in a leadership position, any faltering,

any admittance to that, there's, you're asked to leave, step down.

It's brutal.

Any sort of

admittance to what?

I'm struggling with

porn.

Right.

You know, or

that's what they build as their foundation.

I struggled with porn.

Right.

Even if they're doing it, you know, like.

Even if they're masturbating

at the podium.

They don't.

They know.

They just watch it.

They don't masturbate.

Oh, Oh, okay.

They're all edging.

Aren't we all?

God, I'm right on the edge right now to be honest.

Always on the edge of a lot of things.

I think that's how I live my life.

It's as a metaphor, edging.

Well, that's well, that's kind of interesting that

so that means that most people who are looking to these leaders, they're willing to accept flaws or at least flaws in the past.

But sort of the conversation of

active struggle that they may be not winning then it's sort of like well we need to get a new leader yeah we need somebody new to come in because this isn't a good look yeah or it's like uh you know he needs sort of a one-on-one help or maybe he should just come on this side of the uh of the podium for a while and they might make it like he's you know taking a sabbatical sure or you know whatever but it's really a we're we're looking for something

they kind of god their leaders

and it sucks because there's that doesn't i have a friend that's a pastor and

i i know through and through this guy is

such a good person yeah and somebody that doesn't throw it in people's faces but you know if he makes a mistake he's leading a church um

And people like the elders, you know, all the people that are kind of involved in these decisions,

they just are just so ready to rotate.

Well, I think like one of the issues is, too, is like the church is a community.

So if you start fucking with the people in the community or you drag some other people in, it's like it never goes away.

And the humbling is if either you're going to stay in that community or you really go split.

That's why guys go to like other towns and start churches.

He had a church over in wherever, and they're like, why do you leave?

Like, well, we don't really know, but, you know, we got this building.

I mean, they had that guy up in Seattle that

the Mars, I don't know if you remember Driscoll, Mark Driscoll or something like that.

There was a big,

you know, he got, it was an explosion.

I mean, this was a huge church and he

said things like, you know, mini vans mean mini man.

You know, like if a man had a mini van,

like he had all these kind of weird, funny quotes.

He was that sort of, what is it, the

success-driven Christianity, the sort of empowerment-driven

Christianity that God wants you to be rich.

And I don't think he's changed.

I just think that he moved to a different state.

Yeah, of course.

So that's what happens.

They just keep moving him around.

Catholic Church did that for years until there was hundreds of thousands of abused children.

I live, I lived across, you know, that like weird Catholic thing in Silver Lake that's right by one of the Manson houses?

Wow.

That's on Waverly.

The same map as you.

Yeah, okay.

And it's apparently, I mean, I always wonder what it is.

It's like beautiful looking and gated, and apparently it's a place where they send

the priests for some rehab?

Yeah.

Some detox.

And it was always nice to know how close they were.

Just wandering around.

Yeah.

And you know that they're getting better.

And you've got.

But you still want to keep your kid in the house.

Well, they're probably fixed, you know, and they keep them there even if they're fixed or not.

Fixed?

You mean neutered?

Yeah.

Who knows how they treat those?

Well, let's go back because I remember distinctly, and I did watch your special, and

I'm not going to be

judgmental in the way of like, you know, back in my time, we did hours.

But, you know, you guys do what you want.

Oh, the hour, the length of it, yeah.

Yeah.

But everyone's doing that now, and I know people are advised to do that now because everyone's decided because the algorithm has turned us out that people just can't they can't pay attention.

That, the secondary advice, you know, device thing, you know, that, that whole thing, like, you know, like the way that, you know, showrunners and executives are saying that the TV or whatever we're watching a thing on is the secondary advice.

The first device

is the phone in front of us.

And they have to hit plot points over and over again to remind us what's happening in a show because we're checking texts and emails as we're watching the show.

So this is all

in practice.

This is.

Yeah, this is a thing that's in meetings, that's talked about.

Okay.

But for me, what I

I love, I love the hour concept.

I love the stand-up concept.

I'm doing the tonight show on Monday, and I chose to do stand-up because I like.

Oh, yeah, you can do five?

Yeah.

I want it.

I love that.

There's something so remotely.

Well, it's also used to be part of the job.

Yeah.

Like, you got to figure out how to do that.

You know, take all your shit, pick your shit, tighten some shit up, change it a little bit so it can fit into five minutes.

It was like one of the challenges

doing stand-up.

I was this morning with a red pen and a piece.

I mean, last night I ran it two times.

It was so fun.

It was just like, this is, yeah.

And,

but Nate, who produced this, just was like, listen, I was like, I don't want to put a whole hour out.

I'm like, I'm finding myself again.

I have a lot of material that I don't know what to do with.

And he said, I just want to show my fans your stuff.

Yeah.

You know, let's just do it.

You know, and I was like, yeah, let's just do a half hour.

And

in that way, he was being so cool.

He was like, I just want people to see you.

So you weren't, this was really about just putting you out there.

You're not looking to make a bunch of money on it.

You're just like, you want people to watch it.

No, yeah, I don't.

I don't.

Money is so, I mean, I love it.

It's nice when you have it and you don't have to worry about things.

But I think since becoming a dad, the only thing I'm concerned about money is that I have something to give my son.

Sure.

Otherwise, it's a hassle.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, as long as I'm, I have a home.

I can make him lunches.

Yeah.

You know, like we're good.

Yeah.

Well, that's, that's kind of nice old school thinking.

Yeah.

The lunch may not, you might not be able to afford the fruit, but you can have a sandwich.

No, the fruit we have.

That's the thing.

I'm a vegan, so it's like the house is stacked.

I'm vegan too.

Well, did you, I feel like we were talking about cream cheese when I saw you last.

Oh, really?

Where was that?

Oh, yeah, comedy steel.

Finding the good vegan cream cheese.

Yeah, Kitchen Mouse.

Oh, okay.

Well, I mean, if I buy it at the store, I get the Mykonos.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

I think they do a good cashew cream cheese.

They do, but Kitchen Mouse's is at like Bell's Bagels.

They, you know, oh, they make their own vegan.

Kitchen Mouse makes their own vegan cream cheese.

Oh, Bell's bagels.

I haven't had those.

You know, as a Jew and as a former New Yorker, I'm still weird with bagels.

Like, I don't mind having a bagel here and there, but like, I still have them in New York, and I still have this idea of what an amazing bagel is.

And it's never been matched to the ones I used to get.

I can't even remember what the name of the place was.

Maybe it was BD bagels.

And you used to have to go downtown and get them in the morning when they were hot.

In L.A.?

No, in New York.

And they were dense, man.

Dense.

Dense.

Yes.

Heavy?

Yeah.

They were like, you know, it was like, they had a weight to them.

And that's good?

Yeah, it was good.

Oh.

Yeah, for me.

I felt like those were the real deal.

And you watch what you eat.

Yes.

Yes.

Dude, I'm nuts.

So,

so eating a dense bagel doesn't seem like a.

No, it's a rare thing.

So once a month.

But like, I'll tell you, those Cantors rye bread is top-notch.

Oh, yeah.

You told me that Cantors makes

a vegan Reuben.

Yes.

It's awesome.

I got to have it.

It's awesome.

Like, I'll do it.

I don't want to wear it out.

Yeah, I don't know that it's good for you.

I would say it falls under the umbrella of vegan junk food.

I'm going to do it tonight.

I'm doing the store tonight.

I'm going to go there.

Yeah, yeah.

Just make sure you get.

Well, what you do is they have a vegetarian option and a vegan option.

And the vegan option is the Mrs.

Goldfarb's corned beef.

I think it's a seitan-ish kind of thing, or maybe it's soy, but it's spiced properly.

But you get, they have a vegan Russian dressing, and you replace the cheese with avocado.

So it's basically sauerkraut, you know, avocado, the meat, and then the vegan Russian.

And they grill it, though.

That's the best part.

They grill it like a Reuben.

And I've had very good experience with it.

Are Reubens always grilled?

Yeah, that makes them great.

That's what gives them that awesome crust.

You know, it's not toast.

They take the whole sandwich and they'd put it on the grill and they press, you know, they put the press on it and then flip it.

So like a grilled cheese.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

Excellent.

I used to get that at that place, that deli and like by MacArthur Park, whatever that is.

Langers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was good.

How long have you been vegan?

Three years.

Yeah, I've been two.

And I like cooking for it.

Like, and I'm like really kind of a stickler with it.

I don't, I've made one or two exceptions, but not consistently.

Like I've been at a Thai place on the road because that's the only place I can eat.

And if they're going to put a little fish sauce in the green papaya salad I'll take it yeah my girlfriend is what why I got into it and

she's always an aging cook that always goes well yeah

anything it wasn't forced it was just it was like I felt bad I didn't like eating in front of her at first I did it like yeah I think our first date I got a steak you know like just I'm not changing

yeah yeah and uh and then I tried it and I thought this is good for my cholesterol so that's nice that's what I'm yeah that's what that's why I started it

But yeah, I cook all the time.

You started for vain reasons.

Oh, no, no, I started for the cholesterol.

No, for me, but that to me is vanity rather than anti-salaming animals, yeah.

Well, you get a little more sensitive to that as time goes on, the animal thing.

Yeah, because it does come in.

You do know that you're, you know, you're good.

You look at animals differently.

Yeah.

I was always an animal guy, but now, like,

my experience of empathy and sadness for animals in trouble is profound.

Yeah.

Like, I got two cats that are fighting for some reason.

They won't won't stop, and it's a horrible thing.

Like, when they want the Charlie, just wants to beat the shit out of Buster, and I can't, I don't know what's going on.

And do you think Buster is not into it, or do you think?

Well, Buster's kind of old, and you know, Charlie's just being a dick, and he's younger, and it's just like it's uncomfortable.

I don't think he'll kill him, but you know, it's like it causes all kinds of stress, and it just started.

And I don't know, I'm going to have to put the fucking Charlie on medicine.

And I don't even want to take medicine.

So I project that onto him.

Maybe, maybe take, maybe

no more testosterone.

Are you doing that?

I don't.

TRT?

What, for the cat?

That's what Rogan does.

The cat's got no balls.

I don't know about Rogan, but I'm assuming, depending on how much steroid abuse he did in the past, I don't know what size his balls are, what effect they're having.

I'd love to.

We wish we had a guy to look that up.

Rogan's balls?

Yeah.

I'm sure if you Google that, you'd get something.

Yeah.

But going back, a pivotal, a sort of interesting moment for me, you know, and because I'm sure that in the original conversation, I was probably slightly condescending.

I, you know, I probably had judgments about you because, you know, you're playing guitar and you, you know, you were, you know, didn't have a beard, and you were good looking, and you were Becky's representative,

and you thought everything was going your way, I think.

Yeah, I think,

and that, and I'm sure that annoyed me.

But I remember we had a very decent talk about religion and stuff.

But I remember

like

we had that talk, and I don't know that I'd seen you that much for a while.

And I ran into you in Montreal and you were on a fucking tear.

Yeah.

And it was like, oh my God,

he's in it.

He's in the fall.

Yeah.

He's in trouble, that guy.

Yeah.

Bill Burr saw me at a grocery store, said the same thing.

Yeah, like, you know, like

he strayed.

Yeah.

Well, what happened?

What was the arc?

Being an alcoholic, you know, I mean, it was just

wanting to drink.

And that happened during the relapse.

So you got sober young.

Yeah.

And then you like, I'll have that beer.

Yeah.

And then you fucked up in Vegas and it didn't stop there.

No, and I came home and my ex-wife, I said, you know, I think I should start drinking again.

I didn't tell her I had drank.

Like it's a proactive decision.

I've been doing a lot of thinking and

let's get margaritas tonight.

And if it's bad, you tell me and I'll just stop.

No problem.

Yeah.

Cut to 10 years later.

I'm in a hospital and it's gotten very bad.

Oh my God.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It was, you know, delirium, tremors, all of the things that you get when you're drinking a bottle and a half of vodka a day.

And it, yeah.

And it was just.

A bottle and a half.

Yeah.

Weight of what size bottle?

Like a fifth?

A fifth.

You know, like a fifth of a job.

So you're waking up with orange juice?

I'm drinking in the middle of the night.

I'm waking up at 2 to P and I'm taking five shots, and then I'm going back to bed.

Hold on, dude.

All right, so you tell your wife we're going to have margaritas.

And then, like, and when does it, how quick before you're, you don't have the kid yet or you do?

Uh, don't have the kid yet.

So you thought, was the kid sort of a Hail Mary or what?

The kid was, yeah, I didn't see the kid coming.

Um, and then when it happened, I thought, oh, I'm going to really straighten out, and I just really didn't, which is what happens.

Holy shit.

So, so, okay, so you're drinking again at the beginning.

I would say pretty quickly I was sneaking shots of like at friends' houses and stuff.

Like, you know, you go into the church.

So,

you're pretending like your guy's controlling it at home.

Yeah.

You're still going to church?

No, no, no more church.

I stopped going to church before that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Now, was it, I can't remember.

Was your wife a church person?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know if she goes now, but.

Right.

Yeah.

But you let you had that.

You had that as part of your community.

Yeah.

So now does the shame

of the drinking,

become consuming?

Well, yes.

Yeah.

But also knowing.

There was never a moment that I could fool myself.

I knew I was in AA for that long.

Every time I looked at myself in the mirror, or I was taking a drink at somebody's kitchen while everyone's in the backyard and I found a bottle somewhere

and I'm afraid that somebody might walk in and I'd be like, hey, oh, what's going on?

You know,

every moment I just would say to myself, you're an alcoholic.

Dude, this is bad.

I just have this one memory of going to a wedding with my wife, with Kim, back in the day.

And it was like, you know, we were in Boston.

It was maybe in, I think it was down on the Cape.

And

like before we got to the wedding, I took two Atavans.

Right.

But then I get to the wedding and right away.

I go to the bar and I do two shots of scotch.

And then I lost the evening.

Like, you know, I smoked some weed.

Apparently I set my arm on fire.

You know, it was.

Is that like a party trick or on accident?

No, on accident.

And like, you know, there were just a whole evening went by.

And

I woke up the next day at the bed and breakfast.

And everybody at the breakfast table was like looking at me like weird.

And then someone walked in and said, why is there a car parked on the lawn?

I had done that.

But, you know,

but everyone was driving with me.

Someone let me drive,

but

I could not put together that evening.

But like just to drink two shots at the get-go on Attavan on two of those, I was gone, dude.

And

that was like, you know, and I felt like shit.

And then, you know, then you're with the person that knows you have a problem and it somehow allowed you to get to this place again.

Mixing the benzos and alcohol is bad.

Yeah.

I mean, I remember one time,

I'll never forget this.

For some reason, these people are going to be able to do that.

You'll never forget the action, but you forget what happened.

Yes.

But I was walking in Manhattan with like Natasha Legero.

Yeah.

And I pulled out one of those sticks of

not Atavan, but whatever the other one is, Atavan, I guess.

And I said, hey, do you want one?

She was like, no.

And can you not take it too?

Like, why do you need that?

And then I did.

Yeah.

it was just like you know what it's weird that moment the moments you have with normies where you're kind of trying to justify your thing yeah and they're they're like what's what's wrong with you it's it's it's morning and you're like what do you mean we're going to meet friends for dinner

why

what do you mean why why of course i'm gonna

those moments with normal people were always the most brutal where because you defend it and you really think because your alcoholic brain that you're like this this is what we do yeah but you're not thinking because i'm an alcoholic you're like of course i'm i mean what do you mean well and also if they're they're the normal person though that you're out with for a night and they're letting loose because you you're the guy they let loose with oh yeah yeah and then their wives are like you can't hang out with nick yeah

ever i mean especially on weekdays because this is bad because you know it started wednesday yeah now it's saturday and you you wait you were at his he has an office in glasill park well yeah he needs to have a place to drink more

I had a storefront in Glasgow Park that I was just to drink in?

Yeah.

Where'd you get that turquoise ring?

That's a good one.

That's a big one.

I got this one.

In Nashville.

Because I got my little Zuni one.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah, I had another one, but I lost a stone out of it.

I got this in Nashville and my girlfriend.

Well, she got me both these actually.

Oh, yeah, those are real New Mexico shit.

They're big, too, but you're a big guy.

But,

okay, so

you're drinking drinking a fifth and a half a day.

But like after the marguerite point,

how many years into your daily maintenance drinking did you have the kid?

Well,

I stopped drinking when he was five.

So

I guess five years into it.

Five years in, I had the kid.

Wow.

And then at 33, yeah, at 33 I had him.

And at that point, I remember I had a friend bring me scotch at the hospital.

And I made it seem like, hey, we gotta celebrate.

Yeah.

But it was like, really like, I need scotch at Cedar Sinai, and I, I don't know how to get it in here.

And I can't think of a great excuse for me to go get it right now.

Wow.

And

it was like, yeah, and I needed it.

Yeah.

I could feel myself

going.

And then, I mean, but the itchy got really bad.

And then to where one time I, I thought I was getting sick.

Like, I thought I, I thought I was like having a stomach flu.

Yeah.

And then it turns out I just didn't drink for half a day.

How long did it take to get you that way?

About half a day.

Of just starting to drink again?

Oh, no.

I was drinking as I was vomiting.

I was like vomiting.

I was like, I got to have drinks.

That's got to be the reason.

But I mean, like, once you started to drink again, how long did it take before you needed it so desperately?

I don't think that...

That was the last three years, I think.

Of drinking.

That I really needed it that And when did I see you in Montreal?

Bottles hit everywhere.

That was

the summer before I got sober.

So the marriage was done?

We're still married, but yeah, it was definitely done.

Yeah.

Because

I was like, who is this guy?

And that was nine years in?

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

So how long did the

before,

you know, the separation, after you had the kid?

kids personally no i was living there still and and everything you know and into rehab it was like i think that i think that a lot of people around me were trying not to rock the boat too much you know like i think people wanted me to get help and they they knew that i wasn't going to do it unless i found it on my own yeah and i got limes disease oh my gosh uh in bloomington would you go out and would you fall asleep in the woods i well i went out in the woods to find that that rock that they jump off of in that movie breaking away oh because you were going to jump off the rock?

And I did.

I found it and it was great.

Beautiful into that quarry.

You jumped off?

Yeah.

That was nice.

Oh, it's still there and everything?

No, not anymore now.

They just blew it up like a year or two ago and it's gone.

But it was on a private property.

I found it, but also I found...

So when you saw me in Montreal, I had no idea, but I had a tick in my hairline.

Yeah.

That was like just barely in there that somebody saw eventually.

And then I didn't do anything about it.

And then all of a sudden I had these, you know, lesions on my arm

that I just finally went to the doctor and like, yeah, you've got Lyme's disease.

And so they had to take my blood.

And when they got my blood back, they were like, listen, there's something more going on here.

And it's,

it seems like you might think that alcohol is going to fix Lyme's disease, but it's not.

Oh, that's how they framed it?

No, that's in my mind.

I was like, oh, I thought part of my, but yeah, when you're, it's taking antibiotics and alcohol weirdly doesn't do that.

They really mean it when

they say don't do that.

Yeah, why?

Because they don't work?

They don't work at all.

Yeah.

But I was, I forget the number, but he said, yeah, you have 360 enzymes in your liver.

And I said, oh, okay.

Well, what's normal?

I was thinking like 320.

He said, six.

So your liver was crapping out?

Yeah.

And my friend had just died from this.

My friend, Richard Swift, who's an amazing musician,

died the same of that.

And I knew that moment at my doctor that that's me, and

I need to go to rehab.

And

I got a hold of Becky.

And

next thing you know.

He was sober?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Were you still with him?

Uh-huh.

Oh.

Are you still now?

Uh-huh.

No shit.

Yeah.

Oh, that's good.

Yeah.

To have a profoundly sober manager.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Who you knew as a fuck-up?

New before and after.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wild.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, he got me into a, my friend Kevin, too, was involved.

I think I called Kevin first and then he called Dave Becky.

But yeah, they got me in.

And then two years, two days, not two days, two days later, they had to take me to the hospital because they found me naked in the backyard of this rehab.

with you know seizuring tremors.

And

I woke up in like the San

Waquinta hospital or something like that.

Yeah.

They didn't create they weren't

tapering you off in the rehab?

They were.

No, they don't taper you off with booze, but they give you valium or whatever.

Yeah, that

and also benzos.

And then there's another one that I forget what it's called, but to help with seizuring.

But they, you know, their whole thing is like, we just want to make it comfortable for you and keep you alive.

But once they can't do that anymore, which they couldn't, you know, they tried it all.

I was.

The seizures are so bad?

Yeah.

And I was talking to the TV remote

about like making phone calls.

Oh, so yes.

I was having meetings out and at a table.

Hallelujah.

Massive hallucinations.

Like, I remember I was playing this Towns Van Zant song.

They had a guitar there.

That always helps with alcoholism.

Play as much Towns Van Zant as you should.

I was ripping through a song in my room, Loretta or some song, and they came in.

They were like, hey, can you?

We're running a rehab out here, and

you're screaming some song in here, and it doesn't sound good.

Yeah, it doesn't you thought you were nailing it, though.

Oh, it felt like yeah, I'm in top of my game.

But yeah, I remember, and I actually called Al Madrigal when I was in the hospital.

Yeah, I don't even know how or why, but he told me later.

And because I think I had a show or something, some calendar event popped up on my phone, and I called him like, hey, I can't make the show, buddy.

And then all of a sudden, he's like, What?

Something seems very off.

Yeah.

I was like, yeah, I'm in the hospital.

There was one scene where I was in a blackout, where I honestly think I was drugged in New York.

But it's really hard to tell when you're an alcoholic and you're in it.

Because I thought I was roofied by this weird couple and that they took me to an apartment and sexually abused me.

That's what I believe.

And I still believe it.

I feel like I was drugged by these two people.

And I was a grown man and I was married, and I was living in New York.

And it was a full blackout.

And at some point, like, cause I got up, I was, I came to the next day, and my wife was, you know, you know, she was about to call the police.

I was missing.

And I'm like, yeah, I don't know what happened.

I think, you know, I don't know, but I have like a bad feeling and whatever.

And then she plays this

message I had left on the machine.

And it literally said, I'll be home home as soon as I get out of this dream.

That's nice.

Fuck, man.

Poetic.

Comforting.

I'm sure that made her feel pretty good about, you know, like, he's okay.

Oh, yeah.

He'll be home when he's out of the dream.

Oh, wow.

He's very, he's actually very, you know, lucid.

Yeah.

Very thoughtful.

Oh, yeah.

It's real poetry.

Fucking nightmare.

And I remember trying to write down something.

And I, because that's why I think I was drugged and not just blacked out.

Because like, i was trying to write where i was or i was gonna you know i don't and i couldn't write and i was you know it i i i have i think i've processed that i don't really know nothing horrible happened it's not like i woke up with you know blood coming in my ass or anything but i do feel like something weird like i was brought to a party that i had no control over and the whatever happened at that party who the fuck knows i don't know i've one of my i have you know you have moments like that i remember like there was a birthday party that I went to, and the next morning I was like, woke up, and I didn't know how I got home.

Yeah.

And I had talked to, I know the last person I was talking to was Tim Heidecker.

Yeah.

Right.

And so I text him.

I was like, hey, man, sorry about last night.

Just assuming that he would be like, yeah, here's what happened.

Yeah.

He just said, I understand, buddy.

And I thought, okay, well, I'm not going to ask any deeper about that.

Yeah.

Rather not him refresh his memory.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

I'd better you didn't know.

Yeah, I don't know that I was a massive blackout guy, but I definitely had enough of them, and they were scary enough to me that they didn't happen that much.

They were happening daily for me at the end.

It was like that thing.

You just

knew it was going to happen.

You just, I knew.

At some point.

When does your family give up on you?

I think they were in the midst of it.

I think that it was really becoming

a reality and that everybody was aware.

And I didn't know how much everybody was aware.

Were you physically unwell?

Did your skin look bad?

Were you kind of brown?

Yeah.

And also I had the Lymes thing.

So I was in bed for.

But you didn't get congestive heart failure or any of that shit.

No.

No, that's good.

But I was in bed once for a week.

Yeah.

And just blamed it on like, oh, my joints and all these things from the, you know, this

tick.

Oh, my God.

But I mean, and I'm sure part of it was that.

Yeah.

You know?

And then at one point, my wife left with my son and my dad came and took care of me for a couple of weeks.

And I don't, that's just a real haze.

I don't remember much of that.

Wow.

How old are you now?

45.

Man, you really did it.

Good for you.

You really went as far as you could go.

I know, and I'm so happy now.

I mean, it's, it's not, you know, not all the time or very little, actually, to be honest, you know, but I, I'm so happy that I, I got through that.

You're not living that way.

Well, I mean, that's why I framed it like because we had had a conversation And, you know, there's something always interesting to me about true believers who eventually get off the path that I always assumed when I saw you in Montreal, which was, you know, it seems at the end of this fucking horrendous period that, you know, like you were just, you know, in hell and actively struggling with your faith.

But that, I don't know if that's true.

Yeah.

I mean, I was struggling with just, you know, especially when you're a dad and you know you're doing this.

And so the concept of, I used to believe in all this stuff.

And I used to,

what happened?

You know, like, and you're constantly wondering, what,

did I believe in it?

You know, and it's such a weird thing to like consider doubt in faith.

Yeah.

That's another thing that a pastor can never acknowledge.

The thing that every single human would have, at least once a day,

doubt in the there's a God or not.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, like they can't ever say it.

But yeah, I,

and then when I got sober, that's when I realized, oh, God, there is a God.

Yeah.

It came back.

It came back.

Oh, my God.

And thank God he took care of me.

I didn't get a DUI.

I didn't get all the things I should have gotten, death, DUI.

Yeah.

I made it through.

You just have the tick reminder.

He sent a tick.

He always sends something, you know?

So great.

He did send that tick.

The tick you didn't notice.

And now you have have this chronic ailment that'll be a reminder of a very bad time.

No, I got through it.

I got, because immediately I was on full

things.

You're clean of it?

Yeah.

They can do that?

Yeah.

If you catch it early enough.

Oh, okay.

Some people have it for years and they find it.

I've heard horrible stuff.

I have too.

About, you know, when you can't get rid of it.

And it makes me worried, did I get rid of it?

What, you know?

How do you know?

I don't know.

And it seems like the doctors don't either.

That's always a bad moment.

Yeah.

When the doctor doesn't know.

It's one of those things, it's like fibromyalgia or something where they're like, well, we're pretty sure it exists.

We have a hard time detecting it or fully explaining it.

Yeah.

But you haven't had any symptoms?

100,000 people can't be lying right now.

Right.

No symptoms, though?

No, no.

That's good.

So, okay.

So I'm having symptoms from quitting nicotine.

It's, especially when I see a little Zen.

I'm fucking so, like, I go on and off this shit so much.

And like, and it always, it's like, I try to explain it to people but when you're an addict and you know you start these things like I didn't have I was off nicotine totally for years and then I smoked a couple cigars and I had to get off of them and then I got on these and I thought like well these are good they're not tobacco and they're working for me so fuck it you know why not do them and but then all of a sudden you know you're finding the you the empty the used ones you know the ones that you've sucked all the nicotine out of yeah they're everywhere oh god they're in my pockets they're under my pillows I'm like am I not paying attention I thought you did lozenges I did but they started fucking my stomach.

And

I liked them, but I didn't, these ones seem cleaner than lozenges because the lozenges are,

you know, they're in the thing that makes them a lozenge has, you know, some like mannitol or some of those sugars that like kind of can fuck with your stomach.

So I like, as opposed to stopping, I'm like, well, I'm going to try these.

Maybe they won't fuck with my stomach.

Do you, I mean, do you wear, do you do that on stage?

Yeah.

Do you wear one on stage?

Like, I'll change them on stage, dude.

Oh, really?

I'm at that point of addiction.

Where at some point, like 45 minutes in, I'll be like, I gotta switch my Zen out.

See, I went from Copenhagen to Zen.

See, I can't do the chew.

Were you doing it loose?

Yeah.

Or in pouches?

No, loose.

Did you grow up with that?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So you know how to do it?

It was the first thing I did before smoking, and then I smoked.

I mean, it was 30 years of nicotine until December.

And then I got the stomach full of it.

I've been on and off.

I can never keep dip together in my mouth.

It would always be an almost vomiting thing every time.

But the pouches make everything easy.

When I see Nate, I can't be,

he does those pouches, you know.

And I tell him that story all the time that,

you know, after he opened for me at Carnegie Hall, we did this big show at Carnegie Hall.

And I just remember him on the street giving me, I'm like, you got a pouch?

And he's like, he had like six left in this container.

He goes, just take all of these.

And I'm like, oh my God, this is the best part of the night.

He said the exact, he gave me a thing of him right before I quit at some hotel.

We were like getting off the elevator.

It It was like the end of a weekend of shows.

And I was like, Can I get one pound?

Yeah.

And he's like, just take them, buddy.

I just walked down the elevator.

I was like, all right, well, I'll see you next weekend, I guess, or whatever.

I think he has it.

There's something entertaining about the nature of the addicts around him.

Like he kind of operates an even keel.

I don't think he drinks anymore.

So, like, you know, he's kind of licked this thing through God or whatever, but he still knows, you know, he knows the hunger.

You know, to be like, it was funny because he gave me one and his,

I don't know, his publicist or whoever

he travels with, she goes, I've never seen anyone ask him for one of those.

And Nate was sort of like, well, he's an addict, you know.

Yeah, he likes to point that out about me a lot as well.

I know, I know.

As he shovels a pizza into his face.

He was also involved in some way in getting me into rehab, but I never want to ask him about it because I just don't like hearing about it.

It's like that Jackson Brown lyric of like,

don't remind me of my failures because I've forgotten them.

It's like,

I don't want to hear this.

I revisit mine constantly.

Yeah.

It's one of my hobbies.

You know, like the feeling of like, but as I get older, like

they

don't affect me the same way.

You know, like, but the discomfort, usually it's the embarrassment or the shame, you know, of it that, you know, is where the juice is on that.

And I had something happen the other day

where it was like, this was a horrible kind of feeling that some guy had asked me, it was a gig, you know, and it was, you know, it was kind of interesting because something good came out of it.

I don't know if I can explain it.

Like I was in South by 2, you know, they were premiering this doc about me.

And I, you know, and this guy was doing an event at Soho House, you know, that they had reached out to me about.

The idea was we're going to listen, you're going to pick some vinyl, and we're going to pick five songs off of five different records, and we're going to get a group of people together, like a show almost, and you're going to explain why the songs mean something to you, and then we'll sit and listen to the songs.

And I'm like, well, that sounds kind of thoughtful and nice.

Yeah, it sounds fun.

Right.

But then I'm at Soho House, and

it turns out it's this kid's first time doing this.

He's got no real stage jobs.

He's kind of put it together.

You know, he's got a turntable out there and two chairs.

And we're waiting in this room adjacent to the room where it's going to be.

And I just hear like Soho house people drinking and laughing.

And I'm like, what are we doing?

I picked some pretty sweet, you know, sad songs.

And we're just going to sit here.

And I walk out in this room.

There's some bros, you know, with their wives or girlfriends.

It's like, you know, young professionals.

It's a Soho house scene.

And I'm just this old fucking, you know,

not normal Jewish comedian.

I don't even know if they knew who I am or they thought I was a professor.

It's not clear to me.

Yeah.

That's nice that you could be either unknown or a professor.

Sure.

Yeah.

Like this guy, he's a music guy.

No, I'm not.

I'm just a fucking guy.

And I picked all these songs and like I judged them pretty heavily.

That how are we going to pull this off?

Because there's something innately uncomfortable.

Even if I brought you into the house, I said, you got to listen to this.

You know, five, you know, a minute into me turning you on to music, I'm going to be like, do you, is it, do you like it?

Or, you know, do you want to, you're like, well, I'll just turn it off.

I wouldn't even make it to the song.

There's a fundamental insecurity and vulnerability to that experience.

And now I'm in a room full of, you know, you know, Texans, it's mixed, but like, but it's like Soho House.

And I'm sitting there, you know, playing like, you know,

Randy Newman's Guilty.

You know, and, but, you know what?

When you're pulling out Randy Newman,

it's that you want people to listen and hear it.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, but you know what?

You know, I was really kind of amazed and humbled by the fact, fact, like, there was a guy sitting right in front.

I looked at him, I said, there's no way I would even have a conversation with this guy.

I don't know what he thinks, but we're opposite men.

And, you know, and I'm riffing and stuff.

And he's fucking laughing his balls off, you know.

And everybody played along with this thing.

They sat and they listened.

This group of like, you know, midday.

And I was sort of like, dude, you got to like, you got to ease up on this.

You know, the people aren't all what you think they are.

You know, everybody's complex.

You know, everybody, you know, nobody is, you know, that, that

set in their ways.

And they wanted, they were willing to have this experience or at least try.

And I was the one that was uncomfortable.

It's funny, though, with stage, because your experience of audiences and stage stuff, you saw that and you thought, this doesn't add up to positive.

Right.

Or it's just going to be like awkward.

Like, I don't mind negative.

Awkward I could do without.

You know, this one thing you want to, you know, avoid.

But it was awkward.

But I just, like, I enough life behind me where i'm like dude just you know just you know play along with this this kid didn't know what he was getting into he didn't really necessarily set it up quite right but you know you you can handle this we just got to get through 45 minutes and you like these songs and just talk about them and get some laughs but i did but it was really the most weirdly vulnerable position I've been in on stage in years.

Just like knowing that, like, well, we've got two more minutes of this song.

And I'm.

they're listening to it like he really wants us to get a message out of this that's right they're like why does he like this you know but they all were but like it was hard for me not to be like all right so anyway we can we can tear it off yeah i that's how whenever i show somebody a song i always like cut it off halfway through i'm like so anyway and they're like just let me hear it it's like well i didn't know if you liked it all that weird insecurity that we're projecting

And I played a Peter Green Fleetwood Mac song.

And like, the interesting thing was about that song, because it's a beautiful, amazing song, guitar-wise, lyrically and him he's an interesting character but it's like it gets it gets me pretty deep and I played that one and I knew I'm sort of like I'm in Texas you guys like blues right and I played that and there's no beating that guitar on that thing

But these women came up to me like, what was the name of that one?

Because that one really did something, you know, and it's just like, you know, regular people.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, well, that's Peter Greene.

I don't know if I'll go out and buy the record.

Yeah.

But it landed.

That feels good.

Yeah.

You know, especially turning somebody on to something.

God damn it.

But the point was, it's just that

awkwardness, you know, in like, you know, in public.

And you sing.

I'm still like, you know, relatively terrified to play and sing.

And I can do it all right, but not confidently.

I can't own it because

it's just so

vulnerable to me.

And

it's against what we're doing on stage as stand-up.

You know what I mean?

And you're kind of waiting.

And like, I choke up when I I got to play leads because I don't think I'm good enough.

And like, you know, I can't just like kind of relax into it like we do at stand-up.

And I try, you know, and I think I'm getting a little better, but it's slow, man.

I wrote, I had a real prolific moment of writing like 10 songs that I really liked that I thought were great.

And I did.

I did a show.

Yeah.

You know, with a twist to them or whatever, but serious.

Yeah.

And I did a show at Permanent Records and I had like a band.

Outback?

And I, no, I'm inside.

Yeah, yeah.

Which reminds me of this place in Cleveland.

It's like such a cool bar.

Yeah.

And I went through five of them there, and it was the most nerve-wracking.

I was so nervous leading up to it, the rehearsals, and everyone in the band's like, these are great songs, dude.

This is going to be fun.

Yeah.

I'm like, really?

Are you sure?

Yeah, me too, always when I play with people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But we forget that.

You know, as comics, you really need everyone's attention in a very specific way, like for real.

And the idea that, like, when you're playing music, even if you have that kind of attention, then your own insecurity is sort of like, I got to get through this.

Yeah.

But if people are talking or they're not paying attention, or they're ordering drinks, and you're like, oh, they don't like it.

Like, you know, the kind of place you've got to hold, you know, when you're playing music and not think about that stuff is much different, you know, because it's music.

You know, they'll be in and out, whatever.

Yeah.

It's,

there's noise, there's drinks.

Yeah.

It's weird.

I did that.

I did this show recently where I sang the weight.

Oh, yeah.

With, But it was with the, you know, the David Wayne's band, Ken Marino, their dad band.

Dad's dad band or whatever.

And it was, I sang the first verse and then was in the song.

But

it was amazing because it was the closing song and it just is the easiest song.

And I walked out of that thinking, yeah, I could do that.

I could be a rock star.

Sure.

Well, that's the other thing.

Like, also, if you

like, they're pretty honest about where they're coming from.

But I still got this thing that's sort of like, I got to make it my own.

I'm not just some sad late boomer doing cover songs.

I want to be the real deal.

I don't want this just to be a hobby if I'm going to do it, which it is anyways.

But I'd like to have, because I have a way of playing.

I don't try to play like a record.

I'm not concerned with that.

I'm an interpreter out of my lack of skill.

Yeah.

That's a good way to put it.

Yeah.

And

I want that to be enough.

But it's not lack of skill.

It's just different skill.

It's like, it's like you're...

Yeah, it's not.

It's because there's definitely skill there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But like, you know, I'm limited.

Yeah.

And I always judge myself against these 12-year-olds on Instagram.

I'm like, oh, my God.

Why can't I just practice a little more?

I went the other day.

I just looked up Licks and C.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I was like, I want to just learn a couple more licks.

And I went through it and I was like, wow, this guy is

some 14-year-old kid.

And I thought, how's he?

What?

I know.

Okay.

I know.

And then you got to lean like, but I feel them.

I feel the ones I have.

Yeah.

I feel these licks.

I've been playing the same ones for.

Me too.

Yeah.

You know, I add a couple, you know, and I've done, you know, I'm trying to do a little more major scale stuff, but that's not country, like, you know, working those mixolydians into the blues.

But it's not satisfying to me.

You know, and I hear even when people play it, I'm like, I don't know about that note.

But,

you know, but after a certain point, unless you're really going to be like, I'm going to practice two hours a day, you know, and I'm going to work on these runs.

You know, I'm going to learn new chords.

I did that over the pandemic.

Yeah, I learned how to Travis pick.

I learned a few things.

I was like, I really want to.

You can do it?

Yeah.

I thought, I really want to like,

but you got to keep doing it.

Yeah.

And I'm not like, even now, I haven't been doing it.

And I tried the other day, and it's like, oh, I can still do it, but I can't.

Those guys that can do it without thinking, like, for me to play and sing at the same time, if the lick is a little complicated, it's a mess.

Yeah, to throw the melody into the bass and all that.

Yeah.

It's a mess.

That's why that movie inside the Lewin Davis movie, that guy, that actor,

Isaac J.

What's his name?

Yeah, he learned how to do that.

Oscar Isaac.

Yeah.

I saw an interview.

He was like, yeah, I learned how to Travis pick when I got the part.

And I was like, I'm going to learn how to Travis Pick.

That sounds cool.

And I was like, wow, he learned that and then performed.

I mean,

so did Chalame, I think.

Well, I know, I think that Dylan's more of a flat picker.

But yeah, it's kind of, you know, you can get it.

And when you get it, you're like, I'm doing it.

But then like to start singing on top of it, good luck.

No, No, and it's beautiful.

Like the way that Towns Van Zamp plays guitar, especially when he's in his older years where he doesn't really care that much.

Oh, he's so drunk, dude.

I know, and it's so sloppy, the guitar, but it's also amazing, the guitar.

It's so weird.

It's like he's trying to be offensive with an acoustic guitar, and it's rhythmically like...

Fuck you, acoustic.

Yeah.

Exactly.

But, okay, so.

You hit the wall, you did the rehab, but they took you to the hospital, and then they finally got it out of you.

Yeah.

And then you just, you locked in.

I had a nice 60 days in rehab.

Oh, wow.

It's big.

I loved it.

Yeah.

I mean, and I care, I was doing it.

Yeah.

Sure.

But I got, you know, it's funny, this comes from the Montreal thing, too.

I got a call from my, my stand-up agent when I was in there, and he didn't know I was in rehab.

Yeah.

And he was like, hey, buddy, I just wanted to call and confirm that

Mexico tour that you agreed to do.

And I was like, what?

And he goes, yeah, in Montreal, you met those two guys from Mexico and agreed to do a tour with them.

And then they sent an offer.

And I just said, I mean, yeah, sure, I'll do it.

So like the first stand-up I did really after getting sober was a tour of Mexico with these two guys that I agreed to like on cocaine.

And who knows what I was on.

Yeah.

And how'd that go?

Fun as hell.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stayed sober.

Stayed sober.

They, they were, they made it their mission to keep me sober.

You know, like they were really.

Did you go to Mexican meetings?

Didn't have any time.

Oh.

It was really a like a, we're getting in the car and driving.

It was fun.

Oh, that's great.

Like weird small cities.

Yeah.

They said that comedians come down and do Mexico City.

They do like, you know, the basics, but no one had really done what I was like doing.

One-nighters.

Yeah.

Around.

Yeah.

It was fun.

And the guy that opened for me was

Roberto Flores.

He was doing

all Spanish.

Yeah.

And they, but they got you.

Some cities, yeah.

And so, but I guess that's helpful ultimately when you enter

recovery to have a God in place.

Yeah.

As opposed to like, hey, man, because everyone freaks out.

It's like, well, the God thing.

If that's not an issue, that's a big chunk out.

All of the things were not an issue.

Admitting I had lost control.

I mean, I knew I lost control that night at the hotel in Las Vegas.

I knew that I was out of, you know.

So all of those things, I was just like, it was just like my hands were up.

I was like, help me get through these steps and then let's do this.

And how'd you rebuild with the ex-wife and the kid?

Was the kid hip to it?

Did you embarrass yourself in front of the kid?

No.

And he was five.

And that was something somebody told me in rehab.

They said, hey, my dad got sober when I was five and I don't remember him drinking at all.

And he knew that I was sick, I think, and that I was in the hospital.

They didn't come visit or anything.

I didn't really want them to.

And then I came out and it was Christmas time and

things started moving.

And then I moved in with some friends and

started a new life.

Yeah.

In the back house, whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I, uh, and then the pandemic hit, and that was like actually kind of a cool situation to be in.

And, um, we had a bubble.

Yeah, we had a bubble.

Yeah.

And, and, yeah, that was, that was it.

But it was,

everything was tough to rebuild, you know, especially when you know

how people are hurt, you know, like and you can't take that away.

And just going around and doing the rounds of, hey, I'm sorry, I just didn't want to do that either.

I didn't want people to think that I was just doing

the thing I'm obligated to do

if I want to finish my steps.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know?

Well, so that's beautiful.

So it's a nice long haul, and now you tour with Nate all the time?

Yeah, sometimes.

Yeah.

I mean, I do my own stuff too, but Nate has been really kind to take me out, and it's pretty fun.

I think he's assembling a crew of apostles.

Yeah.

Pretty soon he's going to be just touring with 12 guys.

He's assembling something.

I know, dude.

I know.

And we're all going to be on the ride.

Yeah.

He's, I mean, he's really good.

He's, I love him.

It's fun, too, because it's fun to be on tour.

with somebody that when you tell people, they're like, oh, I love him.

Yeah.

Well, I love him too.

You know, I have for a long time.

I get a real kick out of his comedy.

And he's always been a nice guy to me.

We don't hang out much.

Yeah.

But I had lunch with him at the Soho House in Nashville.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had a lunch at the Soho House recently.

I don't really do that too often.

I never do it.

And now, because I did that listen in a records gig, I think I got a membership.

So

for the year anyway.

Oh, wow.

You can maybe run into Ice Cube or something.

I don't know what people do with those

people.

They have a nice house.

I did a show there once.

Yeah, I don't know what it is.

Whatever.

But, well, the special is great.

It was fun, and I hope people watch it.

Yeah, thanks.

Me too.

And so, what's the plan?

Just a tour?

Yeah, just tour.

Keep your shit together.

Write stuff.

You know, I made a short film that's in festivals.

Oh, good.

I think it could be something bigger.

Yeah.

John C.

Riley's in it.

It's kind of a cool thing.

All right.

Based off of the bit that's in my thing about the private eye at the end.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, that's fun.

Yeah, he plays a private eye.

Well, good, man.

I'm glad you're well.

Yeah, thank you.

Good talking to you.

You too.

There you go.

He's a heavy tail, man.

I had no idea that he went through all that.

Again, Nick's special, Born Young, is available on YouTube.

Hang out for a minute.

Folks, seven years ago this week, I closed up shop in the old garage before moving out of my house in Highland Park.

To commemorate the occasion, I did a little tour of the garage as I packed it up on episode 900.

The first thing I'm looking at over here is

these are the notes for the Obama interview.

And I saved this

thing from the Secret Service.

Telephone trap sheet.

Please fill out the blank spaces with as much information as possible.

Special agents may sign as a witness.

And then bomb threat sheet.

I don't know what all that meant, but as a page, it looks pretty good.

Oh, I see.

You had a checklist.

I guess I checked this stuff.

It didn't fill out here.

And then there's just the notes from Brendan that we put together to talk to Obama about.

And then there's my notes and some more notes.

So I should keep this.

It was a fairly complicated day.

So that goes in the document box.

Oh, it's already, it's already happening.

Oh, my God.

This weird thing is a strange man made out of pipe cleaners straddling a rat, a plastic or rubber rat.

I've had this since college.

I remember making it when I was high.

The pipe cleaner guy has a very defined cock and balls for some reason, and he's riding a rat.

It seems like a rare piece of ephemera.

I will keep that.

That's episode 900 with the full garage tour and my talk with Nick Nolte.

You can listen to that for free on all podcast platforms.

To get every episode of WTF ad-free, sign up for WTF Plus.

Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Here's some throwback guitar from one of my big hits from earlier on in the podcast guitar history.

Boomer lives, monkey

Lafonda, cat angels everywhere.