Episode 1627 - Chris Fleming

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Lock the gate!

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck buddies?

What the fucksters?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast.

Welcome to it.

How you doing?

What's going on?

Where are you at?

How's the stress level?

How's the despair level?

How's the the anxiety level?

What about joy?

Huh?

Where's the joy?

Are you finding joy in your heart?

In your heart?

Are you taking it easy?

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah, that's what's happening.

Today

is interesting because today I talked to Chris Fleming.

He's a comedian.

You know, he's a, he does a pretty big act.

There's music involved.

There's sometimes there's live musicians on stage.

But no, but mostly he's a stand-up.

And the odd thing about Chris is that I'd seen clips of him here and there, and I know there's a generation or two younger than me that, you know, he's sort of in this scene with, you know, like Kate Berlant, Hannah Einbinder, these comics that are, yeah, I guess you would have called them alt, but for me, a lot of times if somebody is doing the job, they're a comedian.

But I didn't know who he was.

He's got an interesting look, and I'd seen his reels, and I didn't know what to make of him.

And I just booked him because I'm like, I know this guy's going to be interesting.

I don't know where he's coming from or where he's at, but I hadn't really watched his stuff yet.

And I booked him because I knew he would be interesting.

There was no way he wasn't going to be interesting.

But the surprise for me,

and I told him this, so

I'm not just saying something negative.

So I watched his special.

He's got a YouTube series that I didn't know about because it was old called Gale, which got pretty popular.

He plays basically his mom's friend.

And his comedy special, there's a couple, but the one called Hell is streaming on Peacock.

So I watch some Gale, and then I watch

his other special, and then I watch Hell.

And

what I kept seeing in the midst of his kind of frenetic way of delivering what he does is that he had real fucking stand-up chops.

And not just chops.

I mean, like, he could riff, man.

And that's a rare thing.

I'm not talking about audience work.

I'm not talking about crowd work.

I'm talking about real freedom of mind, stream of consciousness, riffing with confidence because, you know, he's got stand-up chops.

And I never thought that I, I was, right when I started watching it and I saw how he was going at it with the audience, I was like, holy fuck, what this guy is hiding is that he knows how to do this because he doesn't do straight stand-up.

It's not like club work.

But, you know, I find out from talking to him that he, when he was a kid, he was doing open mics, like he knows how to do stand-up.

And it was such a treat and a relief in some ways that, you know, I could find this commonality that, you know, he loves stand-up, but he does stand-up in a way that is rare.

where, you know, just legit stream of consciousness.

I mean, you can see a lot of people, you know, have a certain pace, but believe me, a lot of times they're just doing an act over and over again but i could tell this guy can go off and do it with references that are interesting and way of thinking that is interesting so i was uh

i know it's odd to say i was uh uh surprised and excited that he was the real deal uh and you'll hear me talk to him in a minute uh tomorrow i'm in durham north carolina at the carolina theater of durham charlotte north carolina i'm at the night theater this saturday and i'll be in charleston south Carolina at the Charleston Music Hall on Sunday night.

Next week, I'm at Largo here in L.A.

on Tuesday night, March 25th.

Then Skokie, Illinois, I'm coming to the North Shore Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, March 28th.

I believe that sold out.

And Joliet, Illinois, I'm at the Rialto Square Theater on Saturday, March 29th.

I'm then coming to Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, and New Hampshire.

Also, tickets are now available for my HBO special taping in Brooklyn at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th.

And those are going, so get them.

You can go to wtfpod.com/slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets.

Please go there for the proper link.

Don't just Google Mark Marin tour and then put your city because then you'll go to a scalper site.

But as I told you, I think last week that my anxiety had gotten to a point

where

it was like overwhelming.

And look, granted, we're living through what we live through.

There's plenty of anxiety to go around.

I've always been prone to catastrophic thinking.

And I've always been prone to, you know, when I've got some free time in my mind, to just, I don't know, my brain just picks up on things that, you know, I should worry about and I may not need to worry about.

And I just create scenarios and I create situations and I create, you know, stuff that just causes me extreme panic to the point of paralysis.

And I've always done it and I've always lived with it.

And I've had some realizations around it recently as I get older that, you know, that one of them happened after this psych eval.

You know,

I guess my assumption has always been on some level that everybody deals with this and they just don't.

So I took it upon myself to make an appointment with a real shrink, a real psychiatrist.

I know shrink's an old timey word, you know, to actually get a psych evaluation, which I'd never really had, an hour and a half sort of psych evaluation to try to focus in.

And look, I've done all the things.

You know, I don't know that I've done them consistently, but I've certainly done some of them for long enough to try.

You know, I've done the sort of recovery element

in terms of trying to get into the present.

I've talked a lot about how

a lot of what you're reacting to in terms of

panic is something your brain is doing.

It's something your brain is making up either on purpose or it's just what your brain does, which is mine.

And separating that from things you really have to be anxious about, but even those things in terms of fear and panic, you do have choices around those.

If it's not directly or immediately in the present affecting your life,

some of us choose to just keep hammering away at our brains with stuff that is just terrifying, either on your phone or

on your computer.

And you just feed it and feed it and feed it until you get yourself into a pretty, you know, a pretty electric panic.

And the name of my new band.

But, but, but, you know, it gets to a point where it has been lately where, especially like if I'm about to travel or if I'm away,

where

I can't get any peace from it.

Even if I do something that I enjoy, you know, that gets me out of myself and I'm expressing myself, whether it's stand-up or music or conversations, right after I'm like right back to it.

Just like, you know, I can't even, I'll think about what I thought I did wrong or what I could have done better, or I'll just think about like, are my cats okay?

Or I'll think about what if the car gets, you know,

a flat tire.

I'll think like it's crazy, man.

You know, anything I'm heading into, like, even, you know, today when I'm traveling, I'm like, oh, man, am I going to be, you know, what boots should I wear?

Do I want to deal with taking them off?

Is it worth it to wear them?

It's just like,

it's nonstop, dude.

And it's gotten worse.

And I think a lot of that is because like there's something about living in a world where there's actual things to be afraid of on the daily.

And, you know, it's, I think some part of my brain, in order to find peace, wants to overwhelm that with my own fears.

I want to own it.

You know,

I want to sort of tamp down the actual things that should be making me frightened and just generate things in my immediate mind and life that I can make more frightening.

Maybe, I don't know.

Now I'm psychoanalyzing myself.

The point of this was,

I went to a psychiatrist and, you know, we did the evaluation, you know, and it was very interesting because it's been a long time and I've never really been one for medication.

You know, I did a little bit back in the day to, you know, get, get out of my own way to process some other stuff, but I'm really sort of not about that.

I'm more about sucking it up, living through it.

And,

you know, I,

so I told a little bit to this guy about my past and about my childhood and about, you know, things that have happened in my life.

And I told him about,

what exactly I'm experiencing.

And we did the depression survey.

And I'm not depressed.

I have some depression, but I'm not a depressive.

And after really talking about a lot of the stuff that I'm going through and him kind of like processing it and him kind of sharing his experience with certain things around

treatment and whatnot,

we landed on, well, he landed on

obsessional anxiety.

I like it.

That's it.

I want a name for the thing.

Obsessional anxiety.

Yeah,

I got a name for it.

I always remember that scene in Ironweed, the movie, where Tom Wait says to Jack Nicholson, Doc says I've got cancer.

And Jack says something to the...

like, well, I'm sorry to hear that.

He's like,

I've never got something before.

Fortunately, I don't have that.

But the idea that you now have

a name for it, and then you have to decide whether that fits.

I guess obsessional anxiety is somewhere in the OCD spectrum.

He was not, did not bring up ADHD, did not bring up

generalized anxiety.

And

the way I heard it, I think it fits.

And yesterday, or day before yesterday, when after I saw him, I actually felt better.

Just knowing it, just having the name, obsessional anxiety.

I'm like, all right.

And I didn't have it that day, but it was back today.

So

now the decision is, as I was saying before, but didn't finish.

Look, I've tried meditation.

I've tried a lot of things.

You know, recovery, meditation, all this stuff.

I have the tools.

But

they don't stop it for the long haul.

And I haven't stayed disciplined around it.

And yes, I drink a lot of coffee.

And yes, I'm on nicotine.

That has to exacerbate it.

But the fact that this has been with me my whole life and that I always thought that it was just part of the human brain that everyone has.

When this doctor told me, he's like, no, some people can turn that off.

I'm like, come on.

And like, and I'm a fairly, you know,

self-aware, educated guy.

I did, I just, the idea that there are people that don't experience this, that can just stop it.

I'm like, well, what can we do?

I'd like to experience

life without it, if that's possible.

And,

well,

he told me that, you know, there's SSRIs that they use for anxiety, you know, and there's

some other, there's this thing called

electromagnetic.

I think it's TMS.

And I'd heard about this other

drug, Buspirin or Buspirin or whatever, because I talked to a couple of people with anxiety who had tried that.

And I'm like, what about that, the Buspirone or whatever?

He goes, look, well,

that's a good place to start if you don't want to jump into the electromagnetic thing, the TMS or whatever it's called.

And I don't want to take SSRIs because my experience with them is they deaden the edges.

They kind of fog the edges of yourself.

And I'm not going to do them.

But he said this Busporin is, it might be a place to start because it really deals with one receptor.

But the fact of the matter is,

it's a 50-50 thing.

It might work.

It doesn't work for a lot of people.

If it does work, it's great.

If it doesn't, but it's kind of a 50-50 thing.

And I'm like, well, fuck it.

And he says, it doesn't stay in your system.

It doesn't have any long-term implications.

Side effects are not that bad.

You know, maybe you start with that.

I'm like, all right,

well.

I'm willing to try because I'd like to.

He was very clear about the way the brain works and what's established when you're a child and how that dictates in some ways or the relationship between that and your neurotransmitters or your brain chemistry and how like there are some things that are at the core of who you are that you know are really unchangeable and they are probably

feeding or supporting you know the neural pathways that you've carved that create this issue that you have so you know talk therapy though it can be effective and there's nothing wrong with it maybe you should try to to you know see if you can get some space

and get out from under this with the with this medicine so I'm like all right well fuck it I'm gonna try it and that's a big deal it's a big deal because I would like to get some of this out of the way so I can maybe try to

find

some happiness or at least things to make me happy or at least some way to

not be in that constant drive of anxiety and relief.

We'll see.

We'll see.

But I thought I'd share that with you.

That's happening.

All right?

That's happening.

I'll let you know how it goes because I'll be talking to you.

Okay, so let's get into this.

Chris Fleming.

His most recent comedy special, Hell, is streaming on Peacock for people in the LA area.

He'll be at Largo on April 24th and May 15th.

And I am a new fan.

This is me talking to Chris Fleming.

Do you like, as like a host, like going and being a guest on other people's?

I seem to like it less.

As time goes on?

Yeah.

Because

how much can we talk?

I mean,

totally.

That's all we fucking do is talk.

And after a certain point, it's like,

you know, even if I have new things to say, I don't want to fucking talk.

It becomes just an exchange of statements after a while.

Yeah, it does.

I mean, I don't mind having real conversations, but it's very hard not to just lock into, you know, people want to hear that story or this story.

And then you're like, all right.

Well, it's also,

like, you were trained to do

in the Carson days, I imagined the five to seven minute set, right?

And now.

And now you have to do two hours.

Now you're stretching two hours every week.

Well, but they're not sets.

I mean,

by the time I started it, it was kind of easing out of Carson.

It was more about Letterman.

But yeah, it was a five to six minute thing.

That was a thing we had to figure out.

I'm sorry, I said Carson.

No, it's all right.

I mean, he was around, but didn't mean to.

But at that point, he was kind of on its way out.

Carson was not an option for me.

Okay.

And I was an anti-Leno guy.

Of course you were.

Yeah.

And then, but Letterman was definitely the guy.

I heard Leno was kind of

alt before he became.

Is that wrong?

Well, I don't know that that's particularly true.

I think he was respected as a comic.

Okay.

I mean, I don't know if I, I don't know that alt, what was alt?

You know, I mean, there was like three alt guys, and they were, you know, weirdos that everyone kind of knew.

Facing away from the crowd.

Something.

You know, like, I think that, I think that probably the beginning of alt was probably Brother Theodore.

Who's Brother Theodore?

Oh, you got to look him up.

I think of Andy Kaufman because I'm a simpleton.

But who's Brother Theodore?

Brother Theodore was this weirdo who used to.

Letterman had him on all the time.

He was this weird old, I think he might have been a Russian Jew.

And he had a show in New York that ran for years.

And he was just this angry, weird, ranting guy.

He was pissed.

Yeah, something.

He would do very poetic ramblings,

but

it was odd.

It was almost avant-garde, but he was a thing.

He was a thing.

Yeah.

But like, when I watch your shows.

Look,

I didn't really know what you did.

Yeah.

Well, when I met you,

someone said.

In my mind, it was at a fancy party.

Did I meet you at a fancy party?

You were sitting with Hannah and some fish and goose soiree.

Yeah, I just can't remember what you were.

Sarah's rooftop.

Okay, that's it.

It was two.

We encountered each other twice.

Yeah.

Ione, I was talking to Ione Skye.

Oh, yeah.

And then you came over and you were talking, and you scanned me.

I don't think you loved what you saw.

And you went back to Ione.

And you scanned me again.

You were scanning me kind of hemisphere by hemisphere, and then eventually you decided not to engage.

And then I said, okay, next year

is.

Oh, this was the year before?

Yes.

No, shit.

So you have this memory.

Oh, I was shaking.

Come on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I do know that you're a little self-conscious.

You're very intimidating.

I'm usually just thinking about me.

I'm not.

Right.

Which is the case with bears, too, right?

Yeah, with anybody.

Any predator.

Yeah, anytime.

Well, I don't know if I'm a predator.

You're not a predator.

I was talking about bears.

You're not a predator.

No, no, but I just mean

you're a vegetarian.

Yeah, now I'm a vegan.

Yeah, but I think most of the time when people assume that you're being snobby or whatever,

or just even intimidating, I'm just sort of like, you know, I'm just focused, and then you're in the focus, and I'm like, what?

Well, you're kind of stalking.

And then this most recent year, someone says, Mark, do you know Chris?

And you go,

he's come up on my feed recently.

Period.

And I said, okay.

Well, look, not unlike, look, I wasn't,

you know, being

dickish.

And you did the tone correctly.

And I think,

and I think that what that tone tells me is like, I don't know what to do with you.

Of course.

I mean, and what's to be done?

And that's to be done with.

Well, no, you have to be reckoned with.

Oh, oh, shit.

So there is, okay.

My heart just dropped.

There's a reckoning.

There's a book.

I was afraid this might be a reckoning.

Well, no, but in a good way.

Like, when I saw you the first time, I can tell you exactly probably what happened.

When I was talking to Ione Skye, and I looked at you, and I'm like,

what is this guy doing with the hair and the thing?

Who are you?

What prostheticity?

How do you fit in?

No, it was just sort of like, this guy's trying something.

I hope it's working for him.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

I've seen people try things.

When a burn is also sympathetic,

when it has a deep empathy,

that's when it stings the most.

I hope it's working.

Yeah.

And then when I met you the next time, I had seen your stuff and I knew you were around because you were coming up on my feed.

But there's a whole generation of people that I don't really know because I'm old now and I'm not out there as much.

And I don't know the world you operate in because there's so many worlds.

Of course.

But I knew you were a thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This guy's a thing, and

he's everywhere to the point where he's thinging everywhere.

And

I got to reckon with him.

him.

I think I gotta look up the verb to reckon.

Well, maybe we can do it.

We have a computer.

Why do you think I'm using it wrong?

Oh, no, no, I am sure you're using it right.

It's just it sounds

like it sounds almost religious.

It sounds punitively

almost like smiting.

Consider or the second definition, consider or regard

in a specified way.

Oh, that's less violent than what I was anticipating.

Oh, the first one is established by counting or calculation or calculate.

That's not, no, I'm going with the second definition.

I have to consider or regard Chris Fleming in a specified way.

Oh, that's how it says that.

Okay.

I don't know.

I'm part of it.

No, I added it.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

But we can probably put it in.

Is it like Wikipedia, the dictionary?

And you know what?

You doing your own Googling?

Yeah.

I like that.

As opposed to who?

Like the guy in.

Austin, Texas has their team of people on the computer.

Well, everyone's got a team.

I don't even do video.

I don't, I don't.

Which is awesome.

Yeah, like it's weird.

It's coming back around.

Analog is back, baby.

And every podcast is like five kids.

It's like the avatar cameras on you.

Yeah, I know.

I don't know.

So you've gone out to Austin?

What did you do on Austin?

No, no, no, no, no, no.

I can't imagine that.

No, no, no.

They stopped me at customs.

They put one in my leg.

You don't have the right hat.

You have to put your hair in a bun and put it under a hat.

That's true.

A man bun on this.

My head is shaped comically, believe it or not.

I have quite a small head beneath this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But

you've had different lengths.

You've settled on this.

Yeah,

I had a Mary Martin kind of bob.

Remember when she did Peter Pan?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Believe it or not, the shorter my hair was, like when I was young,

the more interesting.

I looked like Cynthia Nixon when I was starting out comedy.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Do you think that everyone, you know that everyone has crushes on you?

People have.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah.

My sister was like, oh.

Oh, you're talking Mark Marin?

Oh, really?

You're from Glow.

She's like, oh, they like me from Glow.

It's so funny that that's the guy they like.

This self-centered, gruff guy with no real,

that guy's not neurotic.

That was the one choice I made as an actor.

It's like, this guy doesn't give a fuck about what people think about him.

I'm like, that should be fun to do for a little while.

You do give a fuck about what people think, though?

Well, I don't know if I give a fuck, but I certainly judge myself against what I think they're feeling.

Whoa.

Do you know what I mean?

What do you know about what anyone thinks about you?

You seem to think about it.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, that's...

Like constantly.

Oh, big time.

Oh, oh, it's a very controlled.

I would love to control the perception of me at all times.

Well, don't you?

I try to.

You can only at some point.

You got to stop reading the comments and seeing what people say because then that gets in your head.

I talk about this with Gary Goleman.

Sometimes when people describe your comedy, you're like, oh, I didn't think I was doing that.

And then you start doing.

It's worse when they hit the reason why you're doing comedy and they hit some deep trigger and you're like, oh, fuck, how do they see that?

Oh, humiliating.

Yeah, it's the worst.

But it seems like your whole event of my event?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

The Fleming event.

I'm seeing these words capitalized.

Reckoning the whole event.

The whole event of Fleming is to say,

you know,

I'm here.

I'm aware of what you think.

Oh, exactly.

And then I will transcend it because I'm magic.

That was why I wanted to get into comedy was to kind of be,

you know, in algebra when it's like this X is a given like I wanted to be like okay he's a gift he doesn't have to explain himself right that's interesting you really thought about it that way I felt I think I've since realized that's what it was yeah yeah like in high school I would loved when people knew I was funny in theater yeah and then in college and stuff at the time then you don't have to be like I know I know this is a little this is a little yeah something I know that though yeah and then let's go from there right but then but then don't you get that thing it's like but who are you really I mean, I know you're funny, but I mean, you know.

Then that's when you you don't hear from me again.

When you start asking those questions, the party's over.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't hang out with that guy anymore.

It's bedtime.

But

when I was watching, I don't remember which one of the specials.

I did take, well, that was the next,

like, I booked you.

You know, I said, I think I got to talk to that Fleming guy.

Yeah.

Which got me nervous.

It did?

Oh, yeah.

But it was really based on the event of Fleming that I had experienced.

And those were two singular events.

And then whatever came up on my phone, I'm like, this guy has to, I got to wrap my brain around this guy.

Because he seems to be out jumping around in a lot of places.

So it's not positive.

It's not negative.

It is like, I have to acknowledge this.

Yes.

That was the intent.

So then I'm like, all right.

It's like a chronic pain.

Well, no, no.

It was like

I knew that you were unique and you were doing something that I may not have seen before, which is rare because even the weirdos seem to be almost like a comedia della arte thing.

Like the entire spectrum of stand of comedy you know every there they're the 10 or 11 the stock types the zane that's right yes and then there's always you know weirdo and and that sometimes they can be redundant you know like there's a type of weirdo where you're like oh yeah he's doing that thing yeah he's right well there's a lot of people now who are strange in a way where it's i it's confusing that they understand their strange it's like do you know how you're doing that like do you know you would think that these people i even think of nathan fielder as kind of confounding like oh no he's a true he's a true weirdo right right but how would you know to do comedy?

That's, that's my confusion.

Well, I, I don't know what he, like, I don't know how long he did comedy, but I'm not a huge fan of the type of comedy he probably did.

Um, but I do like what he's doing now.

Sure.

Like, there are guys that are weirdos that their intention is to, um,

I don't know if it's nihilistic, but their intention is to do anti-comedy.

Exactly.

And, and that's never been my bag.

Well, I remember listening to you talk to Tim and Eric on the podcast.

And I listened in like 2013, and you you were like,

I just I'm afraid you're doing a bit with me right now and I'm not in on it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I get that.

Yeah, that was my biggest fear with them.

I didn't trust them.

I'm always paranoid looking over your shoulder.

Well, it just took me years to even trust either.

Like, like Heidegger has evolved.

He's softened.

Totally.

Yeah.

And he's, he's like, you know, and now his, I think his first intention was always to fuck with you.

Totally.

And now you just realize like he's just kind of an intense guy.

Yes.

He's a tiger in a cage, yeah.

But he grew up somehow, but but in talking about them,

when I was watching all your stuff, I mean, I realized like I knew that Tim and Eric were doing a thing that was brilliant and inspired and had a genius to it.

And I could see most of the time through what I don't ever know how people create this stuff,

if they do things on purpose or there's it's just the zeitgeist is in their brain.

But I knew that they were playing with forms, I knew they were playing with video forms, I knew they were playing with

public access.

I knew all the things that was making this weirdness.

Okay.

But it sort of transcended anything.

And I thought it was funny, but I didn't think it was like

laugh out loud.

It was like, holy shit.

You know, some of it was pretty laugh out loud, but I'm usually at.

I would die laughing at that shit.

Well, yeah, I think I can tell that they had an impact on you.

Oh, hugely.

I mean, the Absolute Vodka thing that they did with Zach Alfenaka.

There's moments that shatter your brain.

Yeah, and that shattered my brain.

Which ones, I don't know if I know that one.

They were tasked tasked with making a commercial for Absolute Vodka with Zach.

Yeah, yeah.

And it is,

I mean, it's basically now like everything is chasing that.

Yeah.

So if you look back, it might not.

You know how every commercial feels like Timon Eric.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I think so.

Well, I noticed that about your stuff, too, when I was watching the short videos and some of the

music videos or whatever.

And then a commercial would come on YouTube, which are a specific type of commercial.

I'm like, I'm half expecting you to be in that.

Oh, I did a Timon Eric commercial.

Oh, you did?

For glue, yeah.

Oh, that's funny.

It was scary.

So you worked with them?

Yeah.

I was just an actor in it.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

I was a dancer.

Okay.

And this was early on?

Yeah, it was like

when you got here?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like 2012, maybe.

So what, were you living on the street?

Where did they get there, people?

The audition room.

There was a woman who was like,

she was trying to start a revolution saying if they keep us here five minutes over time, then we can like press charges.

Oh, oh.

It was that kind of a angry extra.

Very angry stand-in.

It was like the Albany bus station.

You got got in, huh?

And you were nobody.

They didn't know who you were.

I thought I was in on it.

I wasn't in on it.

No.

I thought they might know I'm a comedian, though.

I think they just thought I was an eccentric.

Which I guess.

Well, you are.

But the point I'm making is that

what makes me old or what makes me specific about comedy is I need to have some sense of

the human in it.

And if you take all that away, I don't always know where to land.

I can see that it's a thing.

Yeah, but you want to see the beating heart.

Something.

Right.

You know, something like, you know, what is at the core of this?

And if your whole thing is to avoid that, then

you're still brilliant.

Well, I'm just not going to connect in the same way.

Of course.

I mean, but

you know, I had an acting teacher in college who I thought grounded me, and then I heard recently that the way she describes it, and she has this incredible acting teacher,

she said I was ungroundable.

Right.

And she was just going to let me kind of float around.

But oddly, despite the

nebulous nature of how how you kind of, your energy moves through things, you're kind of

hopelessly yourself.

Oh, thank you.

Right?

I mean, like you're not,

it doesn't seem like you're hiding too much.

There might be some mystery there, but it seems like you're kind of putting it all out there.

Well, I'm very inspired by Prince and the way the questions that he answered and didn't answer.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah, I

think about that consciously.

Yes.

Big time.

So what do you mean?

I think if you check off too many boxes, it doesn't make you interesting and affects the work too much.

The people that are fully confessional is a totally different thing.

But for myself,

it's just also the way I was raised, like very much private, like be private.

But that's funny because there's like in all of the stuff, which is one of the reasons why I connected with the stuff, especially the stand-up, is that you're

I can see

Like even when you do videos, like I can see where you have the idea and then you decide, am I going to say this or am I going to commit hours and hours to making a video of this?

Wow.

Well, it's so much easier.

You mean in terms of am I going to do stand-up or am I going to do something produced about it?

Right.

Which is why I do stand-up almost exclusively now because it's.

Too much time, right?

Yeah, I'm getting too old and

I'm too tired.

Yeah.

And so I...

And then you find out right away if it's funny.

Right.

But just like, you know, I can see, like, maybe I'm wrong, but like even the Boba video.

Sure.

So you probably have sort of like, you know, you wrote a couple of things or thought two things about Boba.

Yeah.

And you're thinking like, well, well, that's a pretty good joke, but why not elevate it to this thing?

Well, I'll tell you, the thought process behind that is if I do, there's certain bits where if I do them and they don't get laughs, but I still believe in them, I turn them into a song.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah.

That makes sense.

Because then it's like, you can't avoid, this is a piece that it exists.

Yeah.

And so you have to

deal with it existing.

But you have to commit to it.

You have to commit to it, but it's almost like the audience is like, well, this predates me.

Whereas stand-up, it's like, we're all in this.

But if it's like a piece, like a song or something, I feel like it's but also it'll you have so many other things to elevate it.

And so there's a whole other spectrum of things you can do creatively

that probably some of it you don't even know is going to happen until you get into the process of it.

Oh, and the way that songwriting takes, it elevates things accidentally in ways that you don't deserve.

Right.

And I love, I try not to rhyme either.

I try not to be cute with it.

No, no, I notice that.

Okay.

There's no rhyming.

There's just this weird intensity.

Well, because I'm trying to squeeze way too many words into it into a stanza.

But that's funny.

See?

Yes, man.

But that's something that you're not going to do in stand-up.

Yeah.

But what I realized

in watching you, and it was surprising to me, to be honest with you, I was

pleasantly surprised that

you're stand-up at the core of everything.

Yeah.

I mean, you're.

Oh, yeah.

Well, that's how I started.

Yeah.

You, you know how to do stand-up.

You're not.

I'm very serious about stand-up.

Yeah, I know, which was surprising to me.

I'm like, what the fuck is this goofball doing?

How much weird shit do I have to sit through to try to figure out what the fuck this guy is?

Yeah.

But I watched the last special first.

Yeah.

Hell or hell, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thanks for watching.

Oh, yeah.

I just watched yours from bleak to dark.

Yeah, it's a very different approach.

I loved it.

And I love Town Hall.

You made Town Hall look very different.

Yeah, you know,

it's an interesting venue, but it's very wide.

And it feels a little bit like a high school auditorium

if you don't put that beautiful backdrop on it.

That made that whole special.

That guy's a genius.

I'm going to use him again.

I mean, no,

you moving around.

Do you block it?

No.

Yeah,

at some point in time, I became a sitter.

And it was very intentional.

And it came out of, like, when I used to be bombing, that's when I would sit down.

Like, I think the impulse is like, you know, you run around.

The dragon has been slain.

Well, yeah, kind of.

But it's also sort of like, well, I'm going to just, you know, I'm going to do the opposite here and just act as like I'm comfortable as hell and just sit into the bomb.

Wow.

And then I realized what a great tool I've created for myself to make it intimate and I can use it when I'm not bombing.

So I was a sitter.

You don't bomb for your own shows.

No, no, no.

I don't bomb on purpose.

Oh, no, no, no.

But I mean, like, for your own theater shows,

for your own crowd.

No, no, no.

But like you can,

and I think somehow you transcend this

and integrate it.

And I do as well in my own part.

But there's a point where

whatever vulnerability you're moving through up there,

whatever risk you're taking personally could turn on you.

Oh, and especially in front of, like, I'll, I'll, even with your people.

You know, like they sense, like, it's, it's, it's not quite a lack of control, but it's sort of like the bottom falls out a little bit.

Well, and if they can smell on you you that you're trying something new out and they want there's certain people that want you to be in the moment and trying and there's certain people that certain crowds that want the the stuff that works yeah then when they smell it on you they can that you're not quite confident yeah yeah yeah it's horrifying how do my glasses fog up does that happen to you no but sometimes like if i'm really like it's been a while and it doesn't happen much anymore but if i'm if i'm because i don't want to physicalize it if i'm not doing well and i can feel feel that like oh i'm not going to get them over the hump yeah like i get i get that weird sweat in the the back of my neck.

Well, that's great.

That's your little secret.

Especially because you're wearing a distressed leather jacket over that.

So no, that's that's up to you and God.

It's between you guys.

But I feel it.

And it's a horrible thing where you're just sort of like, all right, so my body's doing this thing.

Now we're going to have to pretend like it's not happening.

Sometimes I'll pinch a nerve.

This is why I stretch a lot before shows because I'll be in the middle of a bit.

Like I was on the ground doing this thing.

the other night and I pinched a nerve.

Yeah.

And then you can't be like, like you have to,

you have to continue doing 40 minutes at that point.

But do you, do you draw attention to your pinched nerve?

No.

No, because then

that's when they'll kill you.

That's the one secret you have

is the pinched nerve.

Yeah.

I start moving weird to avoid it.

It's like when you get mic feedback.

But how do you know that's what does it when you're jumping around like that and dancing and doing the splits and shit?

Oh, you what?

What do you mean?

Well, I mean, you're, you're very, how do you know that that particular, is it a very specific pinched nerve?

Because it seems like the way you perform, you could hurt yourself in a number of ways.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

Oh, you should have seen one.

At Town Hall, I fucked up my leg.

What did you do at Town Hall?

I did an hour at Town Hall.

Oh, it wasn't recorded, though?

Not a special?

Oh, no.

I have audio on my phone.

So you recorded one, the old one at Talia Hall.

I have a lot of audio on my phone that I've never listened to you.

I never listen to audio.

I have hundreds.

It's such a waste.

I know there are moments there where I'm like, you could get that back.

I know.

But you don't want it back.

What is that?

Well.

What do you think that is?

Because I do it too.

Like, I record everything.

I think there's the fear that it might not, if it is good, there's the fear that it might not be as good as when you felt it.

Well, when you riff, which I assume you do a lot of, is that like you don't, it's almost like you don't know what's going to be delivered to you in the moment.

So then it comes.

Yes.

And it's sort of like, oh my God, that was the best moment when I said that one sentence of the whole hour.

But you can't recreate a lot of the time.

I guess, and I think that's what we're keeping for ourselves.

That's why we don't listen to it.

And also, I find that I've been doing bits, like I try to do it like a bit maybe a couple of times before before I put it out now.

Because I find that when I write the bits, I write the bits now.

I try to write more of it.

I try to write word for word.

I can't do that.

And then I try to, but then I forget it.

Doesn't it die on the page?

Oh, completely.

I completely fuck it up in the moment because I'm like, wait, that doesn't make sense.

So then I try to communicate what I was writing to the crowd.

And that's when it's

capturing something.

And that's what I like.

Yeah.

Because there's a desperation there.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it has to work.

Yes.

You've cornered yourself.

Yes.

And that's where I want to put it out.

I don't want to then workshop that for a while.

Right.

But because you started in Boston, there's a guy you do.

Like, I feel like

a lot of the guys that I worked with back there when I started in Boston are kind of like, some of them are around, the ones who aren't dead.

Now, when Jimmy Tingle.

Sure.

Jimmy Tingle.

Yeah.

Mac.

Yeah.

Jimmy Tingle.

Dude, I remember like, you know,

he was, I saw him right at the beginning before he was political.

And he had a harmonica and he was sweaty and he was still drinking.

He was sweaty?

Very sweaty.

And kind of fat.

He used to be a bartender at the Ding-Ho,

which then became a comedy studio.

Kind of, right?

No.

No.

Well, Jenkins is of my generation.

That's my guy, Rick Jenkins.

Well, that's good.

I'm glad that he found a world for himself.

No, the Ding-Ho was a Chinese restaurant in Cambridge or Somerville, and it had a little showroom, and it was like the place for a generation of guys like who ran the show.

I think Barry Crimmon started the show.

It was a little before my time.

I got there, started doing comedy towards the end of the ding time.

But so wait, where'd you grow up?

In central Massachusetts.

Where's that?

Stowe.

Stowe.

It's like next to Acton.

Yeah, not far, like 20, 25 minutes out of Boston.

Like an hour.

An hour?

Well, I thought it was an hour and a half, but my parents were just taken the wrong way.

Oh, oh.

So it was a bit out there.

Because I used to do one-nighters all over the place.

Oh, like where?

Well, all over New England, I'm sure.

Leminster.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Poncho Villas.

Okay.

In Leiminster.

With the disco ball.

I ran a show in Clinton for a little while.

Yeah.

There were booking agencies.

That's how I started is doing One Nighters through these three agencies that would book all over New England.

I used to, well, one show I opened for Don Gavin, and he confused me with the opener from the night before.

The opener from had like a crew cut and looked nothing like me.

Yeah.

But there was a fit, there was like a giant Marlin up on the stage, and I did a riff on the Marlin.

Yeah.

And he came up to me and he's like, you know, I do it.

You know I talk about the fish.

Because he thought I was the guy.

I'm like, no, Don.

I don't know.

You're the guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I get that now.

Sure.

I completely get it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like you only, you got to fill 45 minutes an hour in a restaurant in Malden.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you got, that's what it was.

The fish is five.

The fish is totally five.

I took five from him.

Oh, yeah, that whole thing about, like, I remember the first time I did politically incorrect when Bill Maher had that show on Comedy Central.

Yeah.

And I said something and I got a weird response from the audience and I pointed at the sign that said politically incorrect.

And Scott Carter came up to me and goes, hey, look, Bill points at this sign.

Yeah, yeah.

And Boston was very much like that.

Like even premises people were very, very

that old guard was crazy.

So you're in Stowe.

Yeah.

Just like a weird kid?

I mean, how do you get from there to comedy?

You just got the one sister?

Yeah, I got a sister.

Yeah.

Yeah, 18 months older.

Yeah.

She was like valigatori, salutatorium, like top of her class.

Yeah.

And I was not very good.

Yeah.

And my mom.

And you worked that all out with the Gale character.

You brought all of your family garbage up into

processed it.

Yeah.

I'm sure it was.

Incredibly healing.

It's like some kind of therapy, I'm sure.

Yeah, to

take on weird suburban New England.

And from living in it and then deconstructing it from the inside with the help of the people that were actually involved.

How can that not happen?

With my mother.

I know.

I mean,

it made our relationship

incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, it made your relationship incredible.

Oh, yeah, because I was imitating her to her, and we're laughing about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There were direct quotes.

I mean, it was just, it was, it was beautiful.

So what did your dad do, and what did your family do?

Were they work?

They were both pharmacists.

Really?

Yeah.

They met at Northeastern.

Oh.

My dad,

he used to fit.

children into wheelchairs and then he started a physical therapy company and then an in-home infusion company for nurses.

So it's always pharmacist.

Medical,

very good guy.

The best guy I've ever had.

So you grew up comfortably in a world where you were able to do what you wanted to do?

I was so encouraged by the community.

I'm telling you, I was.

What, they all knew you because of what?

Theater.

I was very.

You know how people talk about

wanting to be like, I'm going to prove you're all wrong.

For me, it's like, I don't want to let them down is the stress.

Have you?

I think I should be bigger based on how much encouragement I was given.

Sure, yeah.

Well, they do too, I'm sure.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Why aren't you on the, you know, I don't know.

Can't you just call the no?

Yeah.

Why aren't you on old media?

Yeah.

Well, they're the only ones that still watch it.

Well, that's the thing, is like you impress your parents.

your parents' friends by doing the things yeah sure and and i and i imagine when you did all those gale shows you had to tell a good number of uh 60 to 70 year old people where to see it

how do we watch it?

On the computer?

Yeah.

Is it on Chronicle?

But so you were like kind of a notorious

talented, weird kid.

I was a theater, I did theater.

Like community theater, just the high school theater?

Just high school theater.

And

they let me ad-lib in that.

And my mom saw me ad-libbing, and she was like, oh, we got to get you into comedy.

And so she found an open mic.

Yes, she found an open mic in Merrimack.

And it was a Broad Street grill.

And

she was like, you got to do this and I wasn't a big stand-up fan Merrimack I feel like I performed there I'm sure this had car seats in seats it was uh okay yeah it was a show run by uh Corey Manning and Chris Tabby and uh I don't know them then I started doing a stand-up so you did an open mic yes and then I um what was it what did you do oh, I remember the first one I remember dry heaving in the parking lot and I did a bit about how everyone because you were so nervous?

Yeah, yeah.

I dryheaved for many years.

I stopped pandemic for some reason, stopped dryheaving before show.

Yeah, when everyone's sick, why should you be?

That's very special.

Yeah.

I had a bit about how everyone loves to tell you about when they see deer, which is like the most suburban,

you know, 16-year-old talking about that.

16.

I was 16.

And then I then, then I did it like, I didn't really think about it again.

Was it traumatizing or was it

experiencing?

I loved it.

You got laughed?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I did very well.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

I worked at it really hard.

Yeah.

So the whole bit was just doing different people, being excited about it.

Yes, I was acting out a lot of people.

I'm sure it was very Robin Williams derivative.

Yeah.

No, it's not derivative, just

riff style.

Oh, so you would watch Robin?

Oh, so I saw my dad watching Morgan Mindy as a kindergarten.

Well, I was a kindergartner.

Yeah.

And I said, oh, I want to, the way he's making my dad laugh, I want to do it.

Well, I definitely noticed that in the stand-up, that you do have a pace and a freedom of mind.

And after a certain point, I'm like, oh,

so much of this can't be written.

Oh, of course not.

No, no, no that's that's pretty ballsy well i'm too disorganized i'm so disorganized but you have chunks of course you know that have uh a little wiggle room in them yeah and i have bullet points that i have on a big easel i'll show you yeah this is the easel that i have at largo i have it up see it's like stuff like it's shit like that yeah yeah no i have a lot of that kind of stuff yeah scribbles yeah um but yeah then i

Then I called Rick Jenkins at the comedy studio.

What you're 17, 16?

Yeah, I was a senior.

I didn't take it seriously until a friend, I had a a friend who was a trumpet player, and he passed away in high school.

And we weren't that close, but he, I mean, but he's a good trumpet player?

Incredible.

And the way he devoted himself to trumpet,

he could never hang out because he was always in a different group.

So you knew he was a gifted guy.

Yes.

And I wasn't, I was like, what do I have to fucking show?

You're just getting away with something.

Exactly.

I was like a, I was like kind of a dick.

Yeah.

And I was just like, kind of like, I didn't care.

I was like,

and then I was like, oh shit.

I'm like, it was probably like some.

Isn't that interesting that you do something, you commit to it, to the art.

And

that enables you,

like within stand-up, you can be undisciplined almost every way other than doing the stand-up.

Oh, totally.

And

getting laughs.

Those are the only two requirements.

And I've said this a lot.

It's really on, you can choose, you can make,

you know, the territory on stage is yours.

Yes.

And there's no rules to that.

Yes.

It's just the context has a couple of rules.

You've got to do your time and you've got to get the laughs.

Everything else, who gives a fuck?

But in that, I find that the second I start thinking I can skate on it or release a little bit and not, you know, work my fucking ass off to like write new material or something, that's when it starts getting kind of bad.

Oh, oh, like skate on it, like, you know, doing the same joke or

repeat.

Well, if you have the kind of mind that you have, you know, it also kind of dies through repetition.

It's not fun.

And they feel that.

And it's so, and the way that we were taught the comedy studio was you do have a five to seven minute set that you work on free.

We were kind of, it was the car.

Okay, so where did you hear about the comedy studio?

Because that was when it was like at the Hong Kong?

Yeah, I called every comedy club I could find.

So like he passes a week after he passes, I'm like, I got to get my shit together.

I call like Dick Doherty.

Nobody picks up.

And then Rick Jenga, Dick Dougherty.

Dick Doherty.

He doesn't pick up.

And thank God Jenkins is like, hello?

And he picks up.

He goes, oh, yeah, come by.

And then uh he just took me started booking me and it was and and he that's the guy who really and you're 17 yes yeah and he's all about um authenticity it's like it doesn't matter if you're if you're killing what matters is if you're the the the the journey to to make an authentic voice and so it was freaks like walsh brothers this guy robbie roadsteam i was seeing people the walsh brothers do you know the wash brothers yeah these people were i mean it was wild who else was there merman

i was after eugene yeah he was already in New York.

Yeah.

Aaron Judge, Mike Kaplan.

Mike Kaplan.

Yeah.

He's a very nice guy.

Josh Gondelman.

Oh, these guys are great.

Gondelman's great.

I hear from Mike Kaplan every week.

Every week?

Oh, I get the monthlies.

You get every week?

I get every week because I do a weekly newsletter, you know, that goes out to a mailing list that I write every week.

Oh, cool.

And I've almost become reliant on his reaction to it.

He reads them religiously, and then the day after, he'll kind of break down what he thought was great.

Well, he's like Hannibal Ector.

that's a guy who's doing wordplay.

He's like, he's like speaking in acrostic poems and stuff.

Well, he gets the poetry of what I'm doing there because I really write the thing.

And he, you know, like, I'm almost writing for it for Mike Kaplan every week at this point.

That's really sweet.

Yeah.

We have that.

That's our relationship.

It's kind of romantic.

Yeah.

A little bit.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

But it was like Joe Wong.

I don't know if you know Joe Wong, Dambo.

Yeah, I know Joe Wong.

Maggie McDonald.

Just really, really fun.

Shane Moss.

Shane?

Yeah.

Was in...

I didn't know he was at Boston.

Yeah, we all

Yeah, we did.

He was like, you know, before he became an astronaut,

he was kind of an interesting comic.

A psychonaut.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

A psychonaut.

Yeah, it's a journey into the journey.

He's still interesting, but he kind of had

a weird intensity to him starting up.

There's a certain type of beard you can tell when someone's doing ayahuasca a lot.

And they start using a font.

Yeah.

A certain drippy font ah

they've been

doing like what was he doing wasn't he doing like ketamine i think he had like like a ketamine vape you know so he's like you know you know every five minutes he was like blowing his brain open i think he was eating barbasol i think it was just i think it was barbasol i think it was like you know your observations are good that the poly bit is so fucking funny thank you man i get a lot of shit for that you do that's the thing where um yeah people but i think it seems to me that you know you present as nebulous enough

that

they can't hang anything on it.

Well, see, that's part of the, you know, you leave no, you leave no footprints about

it.

Well, they can't attach a point of view to you around that stuff.

So I can't imagine what the criticism.

I'm an imp in the wind.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Is that the next special?

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know what to name it.

I don't know what to name it.

I wanted to do an especial.

What kind of shit do you get for the poly bit?

Oh, it's mostly just from poly guys

in three pieces

wearing the vest

but that's always been the thing about like the old school swingers it's like who would want to hang out with them

there's nothing they're they're they're they're they don't seem that interesting oh right right yeah yeah i mean okay so

you know i don't know it's all right i try not to uh i i try not to offend i don't want to i do not want to offend but i think you're you're i because i get most of your points of reference and you that's not always the case.

Like, you do have a wheelhouse of

life experiences and kind of geography of reference that, like, I like it.

Thank you.

Somehow or another,

it seems like some of them are a little older than you, but not that old.

Like, you know, the Phil Collins thing, but I guess that was your childhood.

I am obsessed with Phil Collins.

Really?

Oh, I love Phil Collins.

Oh, my God.

Really?

You know, so at the comedy studio, I used to, before the shows, I would go to the bookstore and I would, and I would Harvard

and I would look through all the musician autobiographies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'd look at pictures of Nick Jagger, all these people.

Yeah, that's Stevie.

I'm like, that's what I want to bring to comedy, and I don't know how.

And it was frustrating.

Stevie who?

Nick?

Stevie Nicks and Nick Jagger.

Tom Wade, all of these people.

I was like, these are the people that I want.

That's quite a spectrum.

I want this to be, I want to bring this to this little stage.

I don't quite know how yet.

Yeah.

And so, have you done it?

I'm getting there.

So when you start with Rick, like, what was the nature of the comedy?

Because it's crazy, because you do have chops, and you started when you were 16.

It's crazy.

Yeah, it's been like 21 years, something?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for that, by the way.

It's very sweet.

It was

the nature of the comedy, it was

less physical, but it was character.

Like, Gail was a character that I was doing on stage.

So you do a lot of characters?

I was doing a lot of characters.

Yeah.

I would have a short setup.

Yeah.

And Rick would always say,

you know the setup, but they don't, so you got to make it clear.

It's so funny.

I knew him when he was a comic.

Tell me about that.

Well, you know, he wore, I believe he wore a vest.

Yeah.

Oh, he wears suits.

Yeah.

Like, it was always a suit thing.

Yes.

And he, you know, he was himself, he was mild-mannered.

I wouldn't say he was a killer.

He is the best host.

The way that he was on the sword for us.

And the way he would set, he made us all sound like we were the funniest, most famous comedian in the world.

Yeah.

Well, I like that he set up this workshop space.

A haven for freaky.

Right.

And that's, that's, it was the norm there, so that's why

it did feel weird.

But it wasn't the norm in Boston.

Not at all.

You know, when I was coming up, you know, I was one of, you know, out of, you know, Cross and Garofilo and some of these other people, I was out there doing the NYC's satellite rooms.

I don't know.

I'm going to stop at a scary spot.

Sure.

But I wanted to work.

But there were some guys that

could not,

they could only do what they did.

They couldn't make the adjustment

to do rural rooms.

This is

thrilled that I did.

I think when I watch you, I'm like, you know, I've got a free spirit in me, but somehow

I've held it down.

No, no, but you're doing, what you're doing is

poetic.

Yeah.

That's the comedy of it.

Right.

And that's, so that's not totally.

I feel like I don't take as many,

like I'm afraid to get too far out of myself out of fear I won't get back.

Whoa.

Where do you think you would go?

I don't know, man.

I'm barely holding on.

Totally.

I don't want to go flying too much.

I'm that way about it, but I insulate, and this is what I did in Boston.

I insulated myself at the comedy studio.

I knew that if I went, I...

I opened for Gary in Goldman on the road for a little bit.

And

it was very challenging.

But his audience are sweet people.

They are now.

This was the improv in Schomburg.

I had one of the worst nights of my life at that improv.

Same.

Was it half full?

No, it was full.

Oh, so he already had a name for himself.

Yeah, it was after Last Comic Standing in Space.

Okay.

Oh, all right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And yeah, so what happened?

Oh, they did not.

They only wanted me to degrade myself.

To be like, can you believe I look like that?

It's that kind of thing.

And that's how I feel with crowds.

And that's why I'm trying to, I try to be careful.

Because you're you're sensitive to them going what the is this guy and i hate when you hear like you're gonna pander to that yeah that to survive right especially especially as i when i was younger yeah i i tried to avoid that i tried to go to places where because it's nothing but trauma yeah yeah you're traumatizing yourself when you see comma and this is this is a question i have for you actually is like how as someone who's had a fan base for yourself for so long not that long

15 years oh yeah since the podcast yeah and it took a while to build the the the stand-up fan base out of that.

I see.

You know, like it was never, like, I was always visible, but it never

manifests, it never meant that I could draw.

Like, you know, I was on Conan all the time.

Right.

But it didn't equate selling tickets.

Isn't that wild how it comes to you doing your own thing to really get the people to come?

Yeah, out of complete desperation.

You think it's going to be being a guest on something or something, and then it's you.

Yeah.

But how important do you find it to, because you can live within that and I did for a while.

Live within what?

Your own audience.

Yeah.

But then it's almost like building an inside joke.

Well, that's why like I've always, for some dumb reason.

You go to a comedy store.

Sure.

I know why I do it.

It's not a dumb reason, but I grew up with the work ethic of

doing as many sets as you can.

Right.

And then once I started to get my people, I was like, well, you still got to make just regular

audiences.

And so so that's, that is the, that is what I'm trying to do more of now.

Well, that's how you keep in shape.

And it gives, you need them to have an access point as opposed to just

that's the stress what I struggle with sometimes.

Like, how do they get in?

Yeah, like, I don't do great benefit shows.

Yeah.

No, I don't either.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

That's good.

Like my instinct is always sort of like, how come I'm not on that thing?

Right, right, of course.

That's every comedian.

Right, but, but then when I really think about it, it's like, because you're going to be anxious.

Like I did, the best example of that, you know, they had me on Comics Come Home, the last one that they did at The Garden.

You know, I saw that and I wondered what that experience was like for you.

Well, I know, I know how to do, I can take my bit, my act, my hour and a half or whatever, and go like, all right, well, this one has a strong, there's a definite punchline there.

Right.

This one, I can just do this one.

This one lands good.

Right.

And put together 10 minutes that will do that thing.

And for a space like that, it comes down to rhythmic, right?

Well, yeah, it comes down to jokes.

Yeah, because you've got to wait.

Oh, because it's like a

it's so big, yeah.

But the, but that whole, but the fucking problem was, that was like, I've told that story before, but like, I'm thinking, like, well, I'm a guy now, you know, I did that, I did like the second Comics Come Home, and I've done one other one, and you know, I know all those guys, and I know everybody, and I'm like, you know, one of the first sets I ever did guest spots when I was coming up was at NYX after Leary, who just leveled the place.

And I still remember bombing, I still remember how badly I bombed bombed yeah after that yeah and now I'm like coming back to Boston yeah you know Larry's hosting the return to Boston is always loaded totally because for me even with New York I it's like returning to the site of the trauma it's like it's triggering of course of course so So I'm like, I'm excited.

I'm like, great, 10 minutes can't lose.

The garden, you know,

a bunch of people, I'll be fine.

You thought can't lose?

Yeah.

There's so many ways you could lose.

Not really, not unless I fall into myself.

Okay.

Okay.

That's how you lose, is when you're up there and

your inner self goes like,

I'm going to take a break.

So then there's this shell of you on.

You're going to go to a bird's eye.

I love going to the bird's eye.

I spend most of my life at 30,000 feet.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

So you stay connected.

I say

what I say before I go on.

I say, I'm here.

I hold on to walls.

I literally say out loud, I'm here.

I need to place myself.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, that's good.

Like, you know, drop the water bottle on the floor.

No, I haven't done that.

Or like a thumb on stage.

Yeah, any of that.

I slap my legs.

You know, a lot of times, you know, I'm at war with a cord.

You seem to be comfortable with cordless.

I insist on the cord.

I insist on the cord.

No, no, I insist on the cord now because I love the danger of it.

Yeah, yeah.

It adds a heightened thing.

Sure.

Where they're kind of like.

Yeah, and it's the way it used to be.

It looks so much better.

The big fucking mic.

The worst.

You look.

Can't get him in the stand.

Oh.

It's the worst.

You got to get away from those.

I'm glad you have.

Oh,

me too.

Yeah.

That's a big, that's a big.

Yeah, yeah.

That's like only in the last year did I realize it.

Yeah, yeah.

A 58 on a stick with a wire.

And also, if I trip over the cord, that's fine.

That's great.

It's gold.

So, but here's what happens at the garden.

Yes, sir.

We're backstage, and he's going through the order, and there's fucking 15 people in there, and I'm not hearing my name.

He keeps going.

And then

the words you never want to hear, it's like, all right, it's going to be Bobby Kelly, then Mac.

You never want to hear.

You never want to hear it.

It's going to be Bobby Kelly and then your name.

And then Burr will close it out.

And And I'm no diva, but I'm like, well, what kind of,

he's going to make a mess of the place.

He's going to make a mess.

You mean like he's not.

What do you mean make a mess?

He's great.

He's great.

I love Bobby.

But he's going to make a mess.

But it's like, you know, he's from there.

It's going to be filthy as fuck.

And I've prepared a thoughtful 10 minutes.

He's going to do Maddie in the Morning style material.

He's a very sweet, honest comedian, Bobby, and he kills.

But I just knew it's like it's just going to be this symphony of filth.

And again, I don't have any problem with that.

I just don't want to have to be the cleanup guy.

No, no, no.

No, you don't want to then come on and be like...

I have to bring him back in.

No.

Because you're kind of professorial too.

I did, yeah.

And I did it, and it was fine.

How'd you sage the space?

How did you reset it?

Well,

it was good.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was good.

It was, you know, that instinctual thing of sort of like, you know, you got to think on your feet to.

That's what you're saying.

He's got listening so intently to what he's saying.

He's got to be 10 seconds

to fucking land the thing.

Pete Davidson had been on earlier, and he did a whole 10 minutes about trying to get his mom laid, you know, because she hadn't had sex since his dad died in 9-11.

And then, like, it gets a little weird, and he says, I might have to do it, but whatever.

It landed okay, but it's just, it was all about getting his mom laid.

Yeah, incest isn't going to land too great in Boston.

No, but then, like, you know, he's in the middle of the show, and then, like, you know, Bobby does his thing, and it was big.

It was huge.

He killed.

And I got out there, and I said, I always like coming back to Boston, you know, hanging out with old friends.

And it's not confirmed, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to fuck Pete's mom.

Great, see, that's great.

It killed.

See, that's you, you're there, you're placing yourself.

I've been listening too, they think that's cute.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I, when you said that, but then Bill Burr went after you, yeah, I remember a time that I went up to Bill and I said, Why don't, why, why don't you fucking follow Bobby?

You, and he goes, I want to follow Bobby.

This is showcase shows, and this, they freak me out so much.

It's hard if you're insecure.

But if you're insecure at all and you can't, like, I've never been able to get to that point where it doesn't matter.

Like, I'm always like, who's not before me?

Of course.

And then I'm like, fuck.

Of course.

But most, you know, a lot of guys, maybe they're pretending, maybe they're not.

They just go do their thing.

But I know my thing.

Like,

sometimes it's not going to work right away.

Well, and you hear them laughing at things.

They would never laugh at this then.

Yeah, that's absolutely.

Even if people come in the dressing room and they say great crowd, I'm like, ah, fuck.

I'd almost rather

than you.

Yeah, like they're a little hard, and then you're like, oh, pressure's off.

Everyone's having a hard time.

We're all fucked.

Bill Burr, though, that was one of those times where, you know, when you think, because it all comes down to decibels as a comic, it's all who can make the room the loudest.

And when I saw Bill Burr at Motley's Comedy Club,

the sound that he where was that place?

That was in Faneuil Hall for briefly, like 2006.

Was that some version of the connection?

It was near to where the connection was.

Oh, really?

Okay.

2006, 2009.

Yeah, it was fun.

It was, you know, like a little club.

Okay, so you see Burr there.

And the sound he was getting, it was like, oh, noted, okay, this is, like, I thought I was doing well on stage, and I was like, oh, this is how loud a room could get.

And then you hear how loud a room can get.

And you're like, oh, I got a ways to go.

Yeah, if that's what you want to do.

Like, I've convinced myself that that's not the most important thing.

See that.

Yeah.

Is connection the most important thing?

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, connection.

But like, and I've, but, but see, I think that's really just me still functioning out of a certain amount of insecurity.

Like, I do have something that still holds me back.

But it's not because the people that were hitting really high principles often stay.

Right, of course.

He didn't.

He's no, he didn't.

No, no, no, no.

But now I'm doing a bit about evacuating with my cats.

And it's just one of those, because I know I have the chops to do it, where it's just a buildy, buildy, buildy, wav, wav, wav, waf, waf.

Talk Talk about a name for a special is evacuating with my cats.

Yeah.

That might be it.

Why be around the bush?

Yeah.

I've experimented with the idea of,

like, I was on the phone with my friend Sam, you know, and I, I'm a catastrophic thinker and full of anxiety, and I'm just always kind of worked up.

And now I'm old.

And I'm talking to my friend Sam.

Yeah.

And I'm like, dude, I can't, I just want to fucking take it easy.

And then he says, well, there's the special.

Mark Marin taking it easy.

And it's you in like a Tommy Bahama shirt

on the beach with a Corona.

Yeah, well, then.

Not Alcoholic Corona.

But I think that would be a funny, ironic title.

I think that's great.

But anyway, so when do you...

Or I want to be taking it easy is also good.

I talk about this with

comedian friends.

There's this El Dorado thing of we can do this and then relax.

Right.

You can hit the eject button.

And I don't think that ever.

I don't know if that's.

On stage?

No, no, no.

In life.

In life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, there is something in my brain that, like, I don't know why, but there is this idea of like, well, when do we retire?

Yeah, right.

Right.

And

well, because of my anxiety, the responsibility of it becomes a little much.

But everything becomes erased with a new bit.

You know, like every anxiety, every, you know, any sort of like, I don't know if I got another hour in me.

As soon as you get that new chunk, you're like, oh, okay.

Electric.

Here we go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, that's the best feeling.

Only if it's a chunk.

With jokes, like, you know, I get bored of jokes right now.

I call it a run.

That's what I call it.

Run.

Because you feel like

a 10-minute thing.

So how do you start working?

I

drink a caffeinated drink.

I drive around the Rose Bowl and I think.

Oh, yeah.

But I mean, like at the beginning.

So you're doing the comedy studio.

Oh, sorry.

And you're learning.

Yeah.

And you're going to these clubs in Boston.

So when does the work start?

Like, here's money.

Oh, oh, oh.

How do do you, like, when do you think you're going to be doing the same thing?

Oh, okay.

I started taking,

I would take the Feng Wa bus to do Bringer shows.

The Feng Wa Bus was a Chinatown bus for like $5 that you could take

from Boston to New York.

Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I would do with the old improv.

I would do bringer shows.

Wait, on for the really old one or the one

that is now the Broadway Comedy Club.

Oh, so not the original, not the 44th Street, because I think that was gone before you started.

This was like 53rd.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

In the basement?

Yeah.

That big echoey shit room.

Yes.

It's like like a church basement feeling.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The worst.

I got signed to an agent there, and then I did

through like so many auditions.

I did HBO.

Did you ever do the Aspen Comedy Festival?

Yes, many times.

I did New Faces.

So

that must have been one of the last ones.

It was the last one.

07.

Okay.

Winter 07.

So you're there having a hard time breathing with a bunch of other they gave us oxygen back.

Sure, yeah.

Finally, they figured that out.

It was me, Mulaney, Eric Andre,

and all these people.

And I was younger, so I I wasn't.

Do I want to follow Eric Andre?

No, you do not.

Luckily, he was in a different group.

Or Mulaney.

Yeah.

Or any of those people.

Yeah.

I did not thrive there.

I wasn't ready.

No.

I got heckled.

I didn't know how to

handle a headache.

Not great audiences.

It's like it's incredibly wealthy in furs.

It's like all industry with like, you know, some locals and then just, you know, rich people who are like, what's going on tonight?

Yeah.

And there's a thing in town.

And the locals in a mountain town are out of their minds.

You know.

Yeah, so it was hard.

It's like home football people with belly button rings.

So you do that, and then what?

Do you start doing stand-up sets for money?

So then I

would summer, I went to Skidmore College in upstate New York.

Then I would spend the summer in New York.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then I would go to New York in the summer.

Yeah.

Mulaney was really helpful getting me spots, but I was then

I decided to just work at the Ann Taylor Loft.

I was like, I worked at I was like working as like a

what?

Ann Taylor Loft in

a women's clothing short.

I worked there in Times Square.

I just I was doing stand-up like I would do like I would not get that many shows.

Yeah.

And then I went back to college and I didn't I would perform at Skidmore.

I'd open for people.

So these are dark summers at the Ann Taylor Loft.

Fun summers at the Ann Toft.

Oh fun.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I was like

yeah, I

don't think I really fully tackled stand-up then again until after college.

And then I was like, oh, shit.

Now you got to walk in.

Yeah, yeah.

And I still wasn't, I mean, I wasn't really getting, I did a year in Boston again after I graduated and was doing the studio and then eventually got signed to a management company who was like, you got to move to LA.

And then I moved LA.

What company is that?

New Wave.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was, they wanted me to do Last Coming Standing, and I said, they're just going to play circus music underneath me.

I know that's not going to go well.

You can bring your own circus music.

I could get ahead of it.

Yeah.

That seemed like the right thing.

You know, that's what they would do for me.

They would show crickets.

Well, that's the thing about

having a unique talent is that

the outside world is going to box you in as a freak.

That's a freak.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I don't think that's your destiny.

It didn't seem to be that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

So then.

Because then if you're not self-possessed,

you'll play to that.

And I would, and I was, I would say, that was the Goleman thing.

If I had to to survive, I would play that.

Yeah.

So you figured out a way to protect yourself and your art.

And then through Gale, I started getting my own following, and that's when I really started actually being able to not have other jobs.

So the Gale thing, so you were using that as

a launching point for your stand-up?

I was doing it as a lot hoping to sell that show to the industry, but that did not happen.

The industry did not care.

And the industry was changing by that point.

So you were sort of at the ground level of maybe being able to monetize just doing it on YouTube, but not quite.

Exactly.

And I didn't monetize it because I thought it was kind of slutty to have ads on.

Right.

So I didn't have ads on.

So I would just tour.

But did you see it at that time as a means to do stand-up?

Was that still what you were looking for?

Or were you already starting to think in terms of film and sketch and all that stuff?

I was trying to get into acting and stuff through that.

I was hoping to do that.

And

I would do stand-up still, of course.

Right.

But I would do like college gigs for money and stuff.

But I I didn't really start.

When I ended Gale,

I toured the Gale show with my family and stuff.

And then I stopped doing that.

And that's when I started using that fan base to tour stand-up.

But you were still during the Gale period

because you seemed to be making a lot of music videos.

That was after.

That was after.

That was after.

Yeah.

This was like 2020.

So Gale kind of got you proficient in producing visual stuff.

Yes, that's right.

And then you just kind of ran with that.

That's right.

And then I loved making music.

with, I would make songs with this guy, Brian Hevron Smith, who did music with me for Gale.

And we would start making these songs together.

And that was the next.

And then I was trying to...

Again, my mom was like, Chris, if you don't drop this Gale character, that's all anyone's going to know you as.

So you've got to start doing it.

My mom's like your manager.

She's incredible.

She's like, you got to get back.

People that need to know you can do stand-up so they don't think of you as some kind of internet hag.

Yeah, yeah.

Because especially then, there was like a stigma.

And I'm like, okay, fine, I'll go back to stand-up.

So I was trying to find a way back to feeling okay out of that character.

That character helped break down a lot of barriers for myself, by the way.

Sure.

But where does all the, like, I guess what I don't always understand is how things come together.

And I don't think there's any explanation to it because like even when you do the music video parodies or, you know, you use puppets or the font of the credits and all that stuff, is that all impulsive?

Or is that group think or is it all you?

It's all impulsive.

Yeah.

I just follow impulses.

I don't think too much about it.

Well, yeah, you follow like weird impulses, but then you just go all the way down the hole with them.

Oh, yeah.

It's usually.

The nail clipper thing.

Like, I don't even know where that comes from.

Or like how you could come up with that and be like, I'm going to commit to this.

Wow, you did a deep dive, Mark.

I appreciate that.

Yeah, I appreciate this.

I think a lot of it is like...

It's first thought and then just burrow into that.

Because for me, first thought, it's like, okay, that's pretty good.

But then it's like, I'm going to spend, what, a week?

Well, you need to, this is why you need to do it fast.

So you do it before you doubt it.

Right.

That's what I would do.

You got a pretty good, it seems like you got a pretty big window there.

My window is very small.

I mean, that's why they're so shittily produced a lot of times.

I have to do it incredibly fast before I'm like, this isn't funny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're what produced?

This is why I have to produce it so fast.

That's why they're shittily produced.

Oh, okay.

It's very slightly fast.

Yeah, but that adds to the effect.

And that's just accidental.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

People tell me, like, oh, we love how shitty this is made.

I'm like, like, oh, I thought that was the best.

Oh, I thought it was, I thought that was pretty well done.

But even in the fucking, like,

I guess I don't know.

I guess it's just because it's not, you know, the way I think or

like what I do creatively.

But like, you know,

not just like DiPiglio.

which seems to be a recurring theme because it seems to have started with a chihuahua or something because you you bring it back.

I was chased by a chihuahua yeah at a distance yeah yeah because you talk you tell the story in your stand-up but then i realized after watching the stand-up that de Piglia was the the monster version the monster movie version of the chihuahua it's how i perceived the chihuahua

yeah but you're not afraid of puppetry which i think is good oh i love puppetry i i i am trying even in the special that fucking weird thing that the theatre bobbers yeah yeah they're hideous we're talking about it like it's a real thing we had to cover them in like a like a lotion to make them wet.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But but but to do to to do that in the special, because like when I when I first started the special, it was like, oh, he did a whole hour.

That's so rare.

But then all of a sudden I realized it's a multimedia event.

Not that I lost respect in any way.

The way that you're using the term event in cursive today, I really like.

It packs a wallet.

I'll tell you this, though, this experience with with that special.

That blew over.

Wow, yeah.

I don't know if you felt this with like your first

legit special or whatever.

I felt like I had to do an inversion of what a special is.

I felt like I had to be like, I had to flex the freak.

And now that I've put that out with all that crazy, the puppetry and all that stuff and all the choices, now I'm feeling freer.

I've always felt kind of a.

Well, you do a lot of things.

So your special was going to engage all of your things.

For me,

I'm of the school that's sort of like you can't really reinvent the special.

No, you can't.

You can barely invert it.

I think you can.

A straight stand-up special, you know, which is not exactly what you do.

But the only time I saw it successfully inverted, and no one talks about it, and they should, is that last Adam Sandler special that Safdie directed.

Oh, the one that was shot in Glendale.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

He inverted the straight stand-up special.

Completely with the fuck-ups and everything.

Yeah, because I really don't think he knew what was coming.

I think he trusted Josh to, like, I've not talked to either of them, but it really seems to me that Josh was like, you know, just trust me.

You know, and all of a sudden there's a dog in the room.

Right.

I'm sure the safeties are shaking the building outside.

You know, whatever.

Those guys are wild.

They knew that Adam could do it.

And I think it's just the one safety.

It's not Benny.

It's Josh.

Okay.

And I just thought the vibe of it

was kind of,

it was really kind of interesting.

And then like just to have Schneider come out and do Elvis for no reason

was like crazy.

His loyalty to Schneider is really, I mean, his loyalty to everybody is just really beautiful.

Yeah.

He's a beautiful person.

So, okay, so you inverted it.

Or I thought, no, so I feel, I've had an inferiority complex because of a comedy studio of like,

I have always felt like I'm not weird enough because of that thing.

What thing?

I had this innate feeling that I'm not strange or anything.

As a performer, I mean, like, I'm afraid of being too um yeah norm core and so now that when i made hell yeah i feel like i'm i've been liberated of that kind of albatross around my neck yeah of being like flexing kind of the avant-garde yeah and so now that's why i'm feeling like a return to stand-up is like it's so lovely to be i feel like i can communicate so much well yeah you kind of loaded it up was that the one did you have the the music ensemble was that in hell or was that in the first one where you had some of the luminaires in there that was the first one yeah the luminaires showed up well that's well because you have this whole other part of your being that

you know I don't know where it came from maybe it was skidmore maybe it was just interests that you kind of grew to to take on but I think that the struggle is that when you appreciate the avant-garde in anything

that it's avant-garde for a reason.

So how do you temper that, your interest in it and your desire to be part of it and still be, have an audience?

Well, that's the thing.

And a lot of at Skidmore, especially, a lot of the theater hid behind abstraction and therefore was not inclusive.

And as right.

And that is the beauty of what Rick Jenkins taught me at the studio is like, the goal, I'm never trying to be like, don't come in.

I'm trying to be as open to people.

I get like pissed when people don't understand, but I'm trying, the goal is clarity and inclusion.

Yeah,

but you like that stuff.

So the challenge,

so the challenge was, well, how do I, you know, integrate this

into an audience that's not just this cultie

people that like fucked up things for fucked up reasons?

That gets old.

It does, because then they expect it of you.

And you're hitting the same buttons.

That's right.

And if they come to expect something from you, that's what's so exhausting about this, is that you have to keep leading people.

You have to keep leading your audience and surprising and taking these new turns that they

luckily condone with, I think, like an audience that loves you.

I'm sure you feel this way, like that they will go with you.

Sure.

Until I get that weird thing where I'm like, I don't want them to like me anymore.

I'm going to take a few minutes and challenge them to like me.

Do you ever feel, do you ever hear a crowd laugh and you don't like the way they laugh and you don't want to keep making them laugh because you don't like the sound?

Sure.

That happens to me sometimes.

Well, though, that's the sort of like that, that crowd was too easy.

I didn't get any work done.

Yeah.

Or is there like...

I did a,

I referenced little women and they cheered, and I was like, it's going to be that kind of a night.

Right, right.

The highbrow.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

No, but you have them.

You have them.

Well, hopefully.

Yes, yes.

I thought that, like,

in that first special, the woman that helped you on stage, I'm like, there's got to be, that's got to be a third of his audience.

Oh,

oh, 95%.

No, like, you wouldn't believe that moment where she turned around and did her claws.

All right, they're all

jungle cats.

Oh, yeah, no, no, I mean,

sometimes I look out and

it's the way that even just genetic people just look exactly.

Like there's a lot of women, this haircut,

these glasses.

Yeah.

Well, I think what's also

one of the sort of keys into

the audience is that bit you do about the

young gay guy and the women that are

they're friends with in college.

Oh, like the kind of abusive relationship.

I think that you have a room full of those women.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

A lot of nice people with tattoos.

Sure.

No, no, I don't know.

You know what I mean?

Which is from Massachusetts,

I'm always surprised when I see someone who has tattoos and is also nice.

Yeah, well, I mean, what it really is, is the art nerd spectrum.

Yes.

Oh.

Is what you get.

The art school crowd.

If you have the art school crowd, I think you're doing something right.

You are.

Until they're sort of like, well, he kind of did that same thing last year.

Well, that's the beauty about being underrated also.

Or if you pop too much,

being underrated is fantastic.

Well, where are you at with your

underrated?

Yeah.

I think I'm still, I'm kind of creeping.

But you can afford a style.

You can sell out a small theater kind of deal?

I just did the Wilbur three shows.

That's a lot.

Yeah.

That was the most I've ever done.

I'm definitely doing the best I've ever done right now with crowds.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah.

What do you think is bringing them mostly?

Everything?

Just the clips on Instagram.

Yeah.

From Largo.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

That's all.

That's what's happening.

I've seen the craziest reactions.

Spike.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's great.

Do you do that ever?

Do you just post?

No, because you're I have a guy doing it, and it's mostly older stuff, but it does get people introduced because I'm still relatively unknown.

No.

Sure.

I mean, we're in a bubble

in the big picture.

So when I see a clip get out there, and now it's like these old clips from me talking about Trump in the first term.

So I'm getting a lot of trolls, and a lot of people would think I'm talking about now.

Yeah.

But like, but I only do like 10, 15 of like real political stuff.

But there's a full variety of stuff on Instagram that I pay a guy to put up.

And he keeps finding stuff.

I met this guy, by the way.

He does Zach Woods.

A10?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And oh, Zach's good.

How's he doing?

Oh, he's the best.

He is.

Yeah.

Who's that guy you use in your videos sometimes?

That's an actor that kind of.

Maddie Carteropo.

Yeah, he's funny.

He's so funny.

He was in Reservation Dogs.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

But yeah, but I think it's constantly the thing about Instagram with those reels is that you're constantly introduced to new people.

And what's exciting to me about, if you look around, like everyone is just on Instagram kind of all day.

And so it's like, it almost feels like a return to, I don't want to say monoculture, but it does seem to like, it's getting smaller.

So if you can

get one out there, it's kind of fun.

Well, I think most of my audience that I have now, a lot of them are from the live Instagrams I did during COVID.

Those were fantastic.

Those were legendary.

Yeah.

Like half your forehead would be in some of those shit.

Yeah.

And it's just me walking around my house for an hour.

Yes.

And I've got a lot of like interesting, kind of sensitive, smart, middle-aged ladies who are a bit angry and they come out and they drag men to it.

Same.

The husbands are always.

Yeah, yeah.

I say like my boyfriends.

My audience is like a third women who are sort of like, oh, yeah, he talked about this the other day.

And then a third men going like, so this is the guy, huh?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But then you win them over in the end.

Most of the time.

Yeah.

I actually had an experience recently where I think a woman brought a man to spite him.

Oh, oh, oh, completely.

You can see in their faces.

There was a couple right up front, and I'm doing like just stuff reacting to Trump, and the guy said something like, that's right.

And I'm like, why are you here?

This isn't for you.

Yeah.

And then I look at this woman, I'll go, did you bring him?

And she's like,

yep.

It was like an education.

I had a birthday party that where the husband got separated.

And so he was in the front row.

Yeah.

And so this is a miserable guy in a truly a party hat.

Yeah.

Just frowning through my whole set.

So much so that I clearly had to ask.

Yeah.

I know.

What's going on?

Yeah.

And they pout.

The whole time.

Yeah.

The same with the Trump guy.

He just sat there right up front.

And he was looking everywhere but the stage.

I love that.

And looking at his phone.

like they're here just by happening.

Yeah, they're just waiting for the next thing, which is not going to happen.

It's the next night.

Yeah, yeah, he's going to be there all night.

Yeah.

Well, I'm glad you're doing so well, and I think that the stuff that you're doing is interesting and important.

It gives me hope.

Wow, Mark.

Oh, my God.

This is truly an honor.

This was a thing I always dreamed of doing as a young comedian.

And so I can't believe that you've had me here.

Yeah, how do you feel about okay?

You think we covered enough?

I think I was expecting the reckoning.

When you brought up the reckoning, I was way more nervous.

But

you were gentle and lovely.

Well, I got no beef with you.

It wasn't that kind of reckoning.

Can I tell you something?

Yeah.

Okay.

I did.

I was so scared of you.

Yeah.

And then I...

Before?

Yes.

Like, what, today?

Before today.

Okay.

But then I listened to the R, and this is a good exercise for anyone who doesn't.

Okay, so I listened to you talking to Ariana Grande.

Oh, yeah.

And what made me less afraid of you and was very humanizing was there was a point where you wanted to share with her that you too were vegan.

Yeah.

And in fact, I have a record.

Do you mind?

Okay.

I recorded this.

I put a beat to it.

Oh, good.

Let's hear it.

I think that this could be.

Is it an Ariana beat?

Nope.

It's my own beat.

Oh.

This is.

This could be a hot track, Mark.

Okay.

A duet with Mark.

This is Mark Marin and Ariana.

I'm excited.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm vegan too.

Two years.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I'm vegan too.

Two years.

Yeah, I'm vegan too.

That's going to do numbers.

Put it out there.

It's out there.

Oh, it is.

It's going to be.

No, no, no.

After this, it's going to be out there.

Yeah, you just put a picture of me and Ariana with whatever.

And it's called Yeah, I'm Vegan 2.

Yeah.

I think there's, I like the idea that there's a vulnerability, but also a desperate attempt at connection.

Exactly.

Yes,

I can feel it.

Like,

I've been humbled lately with that.

And I don't mind that people notice it.

It's beautiful.

Yeah, because after Fine Arts showed me the cut of the dock, you know, which is, you don't get to see yourself from another point of view for an hour and a half.

I wouldn't allow that, by the way, what you allowed.

Yeah, but so

when it was over, I just had really two notes.

One was like, Jesus, man, you make me look like this, you know, cranky, sensitive guy who succeeded despite himself.

And Stephen goes, yeah.

I'm like, and the entire thing, my pants are falling down.

There's every, it's like the, there's a sub, a B story of my pants.

Your pants are falling down?

They're always falling down.

Is it because you're assless?

No, it's because like I prefer to wear my pants well because I don't like to feel a belt on my stomach.

I hate belts.

Yeah, but you wear these really high pants and they're made of fabrics that I couldn't tolerate.

So part of the plot is that you are always fixing your pants?

Yeah, oh, totally.

Oh, I love that.

And

it's a subtext.

It's not, it's not, it's just, it is.

Okay.

And then the other note I have was he interviewed some people like, you know, know, Nate and

Cross and Michaela Watkins.

Well, she wasn't bad, but the comics, she's your best.

The comics that he interviewed, they were just busting my balls.

And I said, you talk to these people for 45 minutes.

Can you just have one saying a respectful, nice thing as opposed to like, oh, Marin.

You know, like, it's like, we get enough of that.

But I'll tell you what, it's because you've become a cultural.

I did a big audition for something.

A character that someone was doing was a Mark Marin.

It was Mark Marin doing Sesame Series or something.

It was like that is how known you are you are an archetype oh good and so that is i mean i didn't get the call for that one

i don't think they care what oh we gotta find out they could just try to get me but i imagine my management's like no he's not gonna do the sesame street thing

yeah yeah no it's because you are a uh

you know you're a staple you're you're you're you're right you you are you have made it oh good i i am a a thing i i i i think i'm i'm almost at the cusp of uh uh old eccentric of some kind.

Like an archetype of some kind.

Like an inventor.

Yeah, exactly.

Like kind of walking around.

I think Marin's still around.

He's living in Ann Arbor.

Yeah, that's what's going to happen.

He's building a craft.

Yeah.

Been working on it for years.

He says it's seaworthy?

Yeah.

Well, that would be a nice retirement.

Yeah.

I finally finished the ark.

I could see you.

Yeah, like in the end of Shao Sheng, but with like an ark in like a swamp.

Yeah, here we go.

in like a

some kind of this will get me out of here humid place yeah good talking to you good you too

there you go I loved that conversation I loved it again you can see him live at Largo here in LA on April 24th and May 15th hang out for a minute folks

Okay, people, for Fulmer and subscribers, we posted a bonus episode yesterday where I talked with Brendan about my experience watching the first public screening of Are We Good?

The documentary about the past five years of my life.

There's one thing where I'm at home after being in L.A., you know, probably before I went into rehab.

I'm not sure when it was, but I was clearly like, you know, kind of being kind of dicey, you know, like dice clay-ish.

I could see that, you know, my brain was pretty fucked from everything I was taking in.

And I saw myself as this drug warrior.

And, you know, I was smoking cigarettes and, you know, kind of my hair was long and fucked up, and like, and I'm, you know, taking this position that was not earned, and you know, who the fuck wants to earn that, anyways?

Right.

Like, I, it was, it was all a fabrication, uh, personality fabrication to, you know, to be something.

Or also to be, you, it was like you were wearing like fucking Iron Man suit in those things.

Like you were, it was such armor.

Like, that's what I saw.

Yeah, but it didn't fly.

No,

no power at all.

To get that episode and all the full Marin bonus episodes, subscribe by going to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And just a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Okay, here's some guitar.

I worked on this one.

Boomer lives,

monkey and the fonda, cat angels everywhere.