Five Days In May: Dunkirk 85

Thank you for listening to We Have Ways of Making You Talk.

Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams, and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well.

Plus, early access to all live show tickets.

That's patreon.com/slash we have ways.

Martha listens to her favorite band all the time in the car,

gym,

even sleeping.

So when they finally went on tour, Martha bundled her flight and hotel on Expedia to see them live.

She saved so much, she got a seat close enough to actually see and hear them.

Sort of.

You were made to scream from the front row.

We were made to quietly save you more.

Expedia, made to travel.

Savings vary and subject to availability, flight inclusive packages are at all protected.

I'm Scott Hanson, host of NFL Red Zone.

Lowe's knows Sundays are for football.

That's why we're here to help you get your next DIY project done, even when the clock isn't on your side.

Whether that's a new Filtrate filter or Bosch and Cobalt power tools, Lowe's has everything you need to feel like the MVP of DIY.

So get it done and earn your Sunday.

Shop now in store and online.

Lowe's, official partner of the NFL.

If you thought goldenly breaded McDonald's chicken couldn't get more golden, think golder because new sweet and smoky special edition gold sauce is here.

Made for your chicken favorites at Participate in McDonald's for limited time.

Late in the morning of the 23rd of May, Monday, Churchill told the War Cabinet, The All success of the counter-attack plan agreed with the French depended on the French forces taking the offensive.

At present, they showed no sign of doing that.

If General Vegon's plan succeeded, and we now know that Vegon never had such a plan, it would mean the release of 35 Allied divisions from their present serious predicament.

If it failed, it would be necessary to make a fresh plan with the object of saving and bringing back to this country as many of our best troops and weapons with as little loss as possible.

With as little loss as possible.

Churchill knew that that was almost impossible.

impossible.

His household diary records that he then returned to his quarters in Admiralty House for lunch, and that dinner on 23rd of May was short.

Later after dinner he went to Buckingham Palace to see the king.

At half past ten he told the king that if the French plan failed, he would have to order the BEF back to England.

This operation would mean the loss of all our guns, tanks, ammunition, and all stores in France, the king recorded in his diary.

The question was whether we could get the troops back from Calais and Dunkirk.

The very thought of having to order this movement is appalling, as the loss of life would probably be immense.

And that was an extract from John Lukash in Five Days in London, May 1940.

And welcome to We Have Ways of Make You Talk with me Al Murray and James Holland.

This is about the five days in May that changed British history.

And that is Saturday, the 24th of May through to the 28th of May, which is, of course, the beginning of, well, it's Dunkirk, right?

All of which happened around 85 years ago as we're recording.

And focus in this series,

yes, a little bit on some of the participants who are taking part in all this, but really, this is high-level stuff.

And really kind of dig down into those high-level cabinet meetings, what's going on in Hitler's headquarters, but also more importantly, what is going on with the French and what is going on within Whitehall in London.

Yeah.

As well as what's happening across the channel.

It is just incredible drama in these few days, where the stakes are immense, where the outcome of the war hangs in the balance.

I would argue one of the only times it really does.

And these events are all happening 85 years ago.

And, you know, we've become very, very used to peace and stability and the assuredness of our future and all the rest of it.

And we've forgotten the memory of the actual living memory is slipping away.

And with it, so has our concern for the fragility of peace and all the rest of it.

And going back to this moment where Britain was unquestionably deeply imperiled, I think is timely.

Well, also, I mean, having just completed a load of stuff about the end of the war in Europe, we've talked an awful lot about by the last year the Allies was this sort of steamroller that overpowers and crushes the Germans wherever they find them.

You know, five years prior to that is quite the opposite.

I think if the war is a foregone conclusion, well, it certainly didn't feel like it at this point.

And if you want to understand the relief that's in London and the feeling of recovery and bounce back, and a feeling of we've escaped the worst thing that could possibly happen to us.

And the exhilaration that looks forward to the future that

is present on VE Day.

Again, we've talked about in our episodes about the Khaki election, the political fallout of the war.

Dunkirk is absolutely central to that picture and to that story.

While we were doing the VE Day coverage, obviously, we found ourselves with the endless problem of piling up anniversaries.

That someone said to me when I was on Five Live, one of the forces personnel who came in to talk to us said, Well, you know, it's Dunkirk 85 in three weeks' time, two weeks' time.

And it is.

And that's the amazing thing about the cycle of the war.

In five years, we could play a little memory gate, a little timing game here.

You know, if the Boris Johnson landslide election is the end of 2019,

let's have that stand in for the beginning of the war, then May 1940 is the second or third month of the pandemic.

That's how long ago it was from now.

And here we are in May 2025.

That feels like an extremely long time ago, but also a thing that we've put behind us and tried to, you know, we've literally tried to put behind us and escape and has run away from the consequences of in lots of ways politically.

That's the time span we're talking about here.

That's the gap.

And I think remembering that, bearing that in mind, having done all this victory stuff, and to come back to the day of the halt order, because you say, you say, Jim, that it's the day where this war, where the war really was in the balance.

Well, imagine the other war that would have followed, whether there would have been other days that would have been in the balance, the other massive turning points beyond the halt, halt had there been no halt order yes had the british army yeah had the british army gone in the bag then you've 300 000 hostages that the germans are holding essentially as a negotiating tool for whatever a churchill government then decides to do he's a he has a much much stickier wicket politically if the germans oh and unquestionably i i i would say that's the end of that war and then there's another one to follow you know well it's a brief euro it's a brief european continental war isn't it but you know in in isolation in the same way that sort of Japan and China is in isolation.

I honestly think that these four days that we're going to be describing, the 24th to the 28th, so that's five days actually, I think are the most consequential in the Second World War and the most consequential in British history, arguably, you know, after 1066 or something.

And I think by the end of the 28th, well, we'll get to that, but it's all top level, top drama, super tense stuff.

And I think it'd be exciting and exhilarating to come back to that.

So very, very brief recap.

Chamberlain's government, Neville Chamberlain, Prime Minister of Britain, his government falls on the 9th of May.

Churchill replaces him on the 10th of May, the same day Hitler orders the launch of Case Yellow, the assault on the West.

Two major thrusts.

Army Group B surging through the Low Countries into Holland and towards Belgium.

Army Group A hurtling through

the Ardennes forests, the Dent Ardennes forests in a giant pincer movement.

And the Allies are not prepared for this.

They have anticipated this.

They've discounted any chance of the Germans going through the Ardennes.

The Germans managed to cross the River Meurs on the 13th of May, and a huge hole is banged through the southern part of this northern half of the French line.

And by the 15th of May, it's clear that defeat is inevitable.

By the 20th of May, German troops in the south in Army Group A have reached the Atlantic coast.

The unthinkable now has to be absolutely faced squarely.

France is going down.

There is a plan.

General Gamelin is the overall commander-in-chief of French forces, is sacked.

General Weygand, age 73, replaces him.

There is the Weygand plan, which is a major counter-attack, which doesn't materialize.

And that's what Churchill was talking about in that opening bit of which you read out.

So by the 24th, British troops, which have been in line with the Belgians on their left, the French on their right, have been pushed back into a lozenge-shaped pocket around the channel ports of Calais and Dunkirk.

And they're almost entirely surrounded apart from this narrow stretch of about fifty miles of the Channel coast.

And it is looking very, very dire indeed.

And no one is expecting the Germans to do anything other than complete the encirclement in very quick order.

Exactly.

So that's where we're at.

And this has prompted massive panic in France.

They are politically fractious anyway.

Paul Renaud is

the Prime Minister of a coalition government, which is at sixes and sevens and is completely thrown by this catastrophe.

Churchill obviously is completely new to the premiership.

He's only two weeks into his being prime minister and panic is starting to make itself felt.

But luckily for the allies, someone comes to their rescue.

Adolf Hitler of all people because this is the most extraordinary moment in this campaign.

Well it's fantastical from a German point of view.

The French and the British do absolutely everything the Germans need them to do.

They give them everything they could possibly hope for.

But by this point, we're two weeks in, and there's an awful lot of friction on the German side.

The men are exhausted.

Gear's starting to fall apart.

Blitzkrieg relies on not really worrying too hard about your own casualties and pressing on.

So although the war, although, I mean, I think that's one of the interesting things about the war in France is it is over quickly.

It's still bloody

on the German side.

So

there's this feeling, isn't there, that things are starting to catch up with the Germans after two weeks of absolutely incredible, isn't there?

Yes, unbelievable speed and you know 250 miles in 10 days and all the rest of it.

I mean, it is remarkable.

Although it is bettered by the Allied armies leaving Normandy in August 1944.

But unprecedented, I would say, in 1940.

And what's happening is on the northern side of this lozenge, you've got the French First Army at the kind of right eastern end of this

lozenge.

Then you've got the BEF and you've got the BEF and the Belgian forces who are being kind of pushed back towards the coast in the Belgian coast.

On the southern side, the Allies have helpfully got a canal, which is the La Bassée Canal, which links to the river R south of Saint-Amer and then joins the La Basset Canal.

And this is known as the Canal Line.

And this is protecting the southern or right-hand flank of the BEF and the French First Army.

And by the morning of the 21st of May, General Heinz Guderian, who has got the leading panzer corps in Army Group A, his first panzer division has reached this line and by midday has secured bridgeheads across it in three separate places.

In other words, the canal line's already screwed.

Yeah, yeah.

It's broken.

As had been the case at the MERS on the 13th of May, getting safely across a water feature is key to the whole thing.

You know, it is a big natural barrier.

So if you can bridge this, you're in the driving line.

Up to this point as well, when people have had those opportunities, they've taken them rather than dithering about them.

Yep, exactly.

And what we have here, it is the most remarkable turn of fate, isn't it?

Because at 12.45 p.m., Guderian then receives an urgent order from the Führer himself, which is northwest of Arras, all German forces are to stop along the line of Lans, Betune and Ayr-Saint-Omer Graveling.

So in other words, the canal line.

There's been a lot of debate about what this signifies or

Hitler's reasoning.

But in a way, that just doesn't matter.

What the reasoning was.

Did he do it as a, you know, an olive branch to the British?

No.

Did he do it because, you know, there's the other school of thought that says he's doing it to show the generals who's in charge.

Because the last thing you, you know, this campaign has been so spectacular.

He needs to be in control of it.

And

put his footprint on it.

I think it's hard to argue that that isn't what's happening.

But basically, Guderian's speechless.

Yeah, he goes, Viva utterly speechless.

But since Viva not informed of the reasons of this order, it was difficult to argue against it.

So in other words, he has to hold it.

And not only that, they have to pull their troops back across the canal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, the end shows that if there's one person who understands Blitzkrieg, in as much as it exists, because after all, there's another debate, in as much as it exists, it ain't Hitler who understands Blitzkrieg.

No, that is certainly the case.

But the origins of this order come the day before, the 23rd of May, when von Kleist, who is the commander of Pandergroup Kleist, which is the main spearhead.

So the main thrust of Army Group A is under von Kleist control, but Guderian is in the spearheading core of that.

So that's what's going on there.

And von Greist tells Army Group A and the OKH, Oberkommando de Hera, which is the army, that his units are quite widely spread.

And the problem is, is the spearheads, the panzer spearheads, are actually quite few in number.

There's only 16 motorized divisions.

Well, 16 panzer divisions and one mechanized division in the whole of the 135 division strong German armed forces that are involved in Case Yellow.

So the others are just using their feet and horses.

So in other words, it's nothing like as mechanized as everyone makes out.

but this spearhead has done all the running.

And the problem is, is the infantry divisions, which are following up behind, are way behind.

And von Kleist tells von Brundstedt, who is the commander-in-chief of Army Group A, that his panzer strength is down to 50%, which actually isn't the case.

They're actually holding up really well, not least because the panzers they're using are very simple and basic and, you know, not as complicated as tigers and panthers and don't break down as much.

So he warns that if, you know, the enemy counter-attacks in strength, then, you know, they could be in trouble.

And they've definitely been knocked sideways by the british counter-attack at arrast which takes place on the 21st of may which doesn't achieve all it's supposed to but certainly gives the germans a bloody nose and gives them sort of pause for for thought

however at this point on the 23rd of may there is no sign of any major counter-attack from the allies whatsoever and nothing to suggest it's imminent and there isn't going to be one it's way beyond anything the allies are capable of yeah i mean it's interesting really is it because up to this point the germans have they've arrived at this decision the same they've arrived at all their other decisions which is basically you know, licking their finger and holding up to the wind.

They don't know the state of ally dispositions in the way that later in the war, when we talk about intelligence pictures later in the war, you might have an appreciation of what the other side are up to.

But really, no one really knows what's going on is where this decision comes from, right?

And generals thinking, my boys have been at it a fortnight.

We're all a bit tired.

I need to take stock.

I need to get my head around what's going on.

And we are massively extended.

They're right, in a sense, that they are at great risk.

It's just the fact there is no risk that they don't know.

So it's an unknown unknown, isn't it?

It basically that makes this decision but anyway at 4 40 p.m on the 23rd general gunter von kluger who's commander the fourth army which now includes temporarily panzer group kleis he speaks to on ruinsted and suggests a close-up order be issued halting the fast-moving mobile forces while the infantry divisions and this includes 87th division which and various others catch up and of course This is the same old concern that have repeatedly reared its head ever since plans for the offensive have first been drawn up, that there is a difference within, you you know, not all German commanders are buying into the same theories of warfare.

You know, a lot of them are a lot more cautious.

Guderian is really the driving force in this style of, you know, striking forward with rapid panzer divisions.

He's got some acolytes in people like Rommel, who's commanding the 7th Panzer Division, for example.

But there are a number of old school sort of Prussian conservative types.

And then there are progressives, you know, Guderian Holder, who's the chief of staff, Reinhardt, Rommel, and so on.

But von Ruinsted is very much a conservative.

So is von Kluge.

And von Rundstedt agrees with von Kluge that they need to close up a little bit.

So he issues the order to halt at 8 p.m.

on the 23rd and announces that the following day, the Panzers to interrupt further advance for at least 24 hours.

But the people on the ground, the people at the

canal line, can't believe it.

They can't believe it.

You know, they're through.

You know, the route to Dunkirk and Gravelling and Calais is absolutely wide open.

They know this because they have control of the air as well.

They can see what's going on on the ground.

By this stage, the BEF is only going in one direction, right?

Yeah.

But while the order has come from von Rundstedt and while it's come from von Kluger, Guderian feels sufficiently emboldened to just ignore it, which is why on the 24th he's across the canal line, even though he's been told not to.

And Hitler wouldn't have come involved in it at all had Hulder, who's the chief of staff, and von Braukich, who's the commander-in-chief of the army, not become embroiled as well.

Because what happens is when Hulder hears of von Rundstedt's decision, he then thinks, well, that's an insane decision.

So he then changes it around.

And so he says, okay, right, I'm going to put all the Panzer units under the command of Army Group B.

And Army Group A can then henceforth concentrate on confronting the French to the south.

But obviously, the problem is that Rundstedt doesn't take a very dim view of this.

And when Hitler visits him on the morning of the 24th of May, he makes his disgruntlement very, very obvious.

But Hitler goes, well, I don't know anything about this.

What's going on?

And so von Runster then explains what has happened.

He said, well, you know, I wanted the inventory to close up with this.

And, you know, von Braukich and Halder have responded to this by taking away my spearheads and handing them over to Army Group B and to von Bog.

And Hitler just goes, absolutely apeshit.

How dare they make such a big decision without consulting me?

And countermands it.

What you've done there, Jim, is you've explained that there is only one explanation for what the alt order is.

This cascade of rival generals agreeing with each other, disagreeing, disobeying, a muddle over orders, and Hitler needing to express his authority.

There's no military reasoning in his decision at all, is there?

It's about being top dog.

No two ways about it.

Absolutely no two ways about it.

Yeah, Hitler's acting out of spite.

You know, he's acting out of spite.

He's showing von Braukich, who he absolutely loathes.

You say Hitler was acting out of spite.

That applied to basically everything, right?

He's motivated by spite.

So, you know, Ockand Razer offers us the simplest explanation here.

It's Hitler throwing his weight around because that's what Hitler does.

Basically, someone's come to him and grasped the boss because he doesn't like the way things are going.

That's what you've also got, isn't it?

Boss, they're not doing what I want, boss.

I don't like it.

Right.

Okay, in which case, let me get stuck in.

Well, yeah, exactly.

But the point is, there is this...

golden opportunity for Kadarian's leading panzer divisions to hurtle straight to Dunkirk and cut off the British retreat because although there are British and French troops in Dunkirk, they're not very many at this point.

There's no sense of a perimeter.

There's no sense of defenses being built or anything like that.

There's no evacuation plan in place at this moment.

You know, the door for complete encirclement of the British Expeditionary Force and the whole of the French First Army is wide open.

And what they've done is they've just closed that

by not pursuing the bridgeheads across the canal line.

It is an insane decision.

And what von Rundstedt and von Kluge are doing are demonstrating what they have made absolutely clear all along, which is that they don't understand or approve of this modern, newfangled way of doing things.

The Conservatives have outmaneuvered, albeit briefly, the progressive.

The traditional soldiers have taken back control.

So with that decision made, let's just round up what's going on in London before we take a break, because there's panic growing in London, isn't there?

It's the simple truth.

Churchill, of course, has rearranged things since he's become Prime Minister.

You have the Ministry of Information.

You have Duff Cooper, who's a solid chap, part of Churchill's circle.

A diplomat as well as an MP.

He's made a broadcast admitting that not only was the situation grave, but it was also a fact that the enemy's intention was to take the channel ports and from there launch a war upon this island.

Now, he doesn't know that for sure, but the fact he's saying that in public is in public on a public broadcast.

The only public broadcast.

People, get ready for invasion.

On the 23rd, the king broadcasts to the nation and calls for a national day of prayer to be held on the coming Sunday, the 26th of May.

Yeah, because if all else fell, let's pray to God.

I mean, you could argue it did.

The following day, Friday the 24th, the Times runs a headline, Germans on the the coast.

Beaverbrook's Evening Standard says, we would do better to prepare for the worst.

Given Beaverbrook doesn't want to have fought this war.

I mean, he's really putting it out there.

I mean, generally, though, the newspapers try to stay upbeat.

No, the RAF are causing lots of havoc.

France will rally, don't worry, and all that sort of thing.

You know, reading all this, hearing all this, that's not exactly omitting a picture of confidence, is it?

Put it mildly.

The king is feeling that the only course open to them is an appeal to God, which is sort of positively medieval in its approach.

I mean, you've got to kind of face up to the reality that

Britain is staring down the barrel, and that is how it seems.

You can be wise after the event, but right there, and this last week of May, that is what it looks like.

I know we live in a very different country now, but imagine if the king came on the news tonight and said, We're going to have a day of prayer on Sunday because we're really in trouble.

You're like, Jesus Christ, you'd sit up.

Yeah, just imagine.

You'd sit up and notice that, wouldn't you?

It's interesting because people are maintaining their cool.

So, who's Dadi Penner, Jim?

Let's just remind us.

Dadie Dadie Penner is one of the mass observation diarists.

And this is a person that the University of Sussex got very cross with me about because you're not supposed to reveal their real names, but I found, I worked out who it was.

And

I thought, I don't want to put a fake name in because that's not her name.

You know, she's called Dady Penner.

And she's Cornish.

But she was living in suburban London.

She takes her sons down to Cornwall.

You know, on the 23rd, she seems a little bit brighter, you know, and she says, you know, she meets one man who said, yesterday we reached rock bottom.

Now the tide will turn.

And by the 24th, despite all this headlines and calls for National Days of Prayer, she feels a bit more encouraged.

News fairly good, she writes in her diary.

Apparently, we're holding them again and also cutting in on the spearhead of their attack.

Well, I don't know where you got that, I guess.

Twitter.

Because that ain't happening.

Yeah, I got it from Twitter.

You never trust it, can you?

If you are someone who knows what's going on, if you're closer to the intelligence there is, you are thinking this is the writing's on the wall here.

You know, it's 1588.

It's a worse threat than Napoleon's France.

Deputy Director of Air Intelligence at the Air Ministry is group captain Tommy Elmhurst.

He's running, he's running the German section.

He's a splendid fellow.

He later becomes Mary Cunningham's sidekick at the Desert Air Force in North America.

Top fellow.

And his job has been trying to sort of keep tabs on the Luftwaffe strength and power.

And he's saying, we're really in trouble here.

The Luftwaffe seems to be very strong, running rampant, and he is not encouraged, is he?

The REF's got the Y service which is listening to stuff.

There is some decrypting going on at the GCSC, the government code and cipher school at Bletchley Park.

We'll refer to that as Bletchley from now on rather than GCSC.

I always think that the

GCC.

But the government taste for acronyms in this particular branch of intelligence is not good.

And they've been starting to break Enigma traffic since Norway in April.

And they've got into the Luftwaffe key since January.

One of the things is the Luftwaffe have been broadcasting an awful lot right since the beginning of the war.

So there's lots to get stuck into.

And Elmhurst and his team, they know roughly what's going on.

And he also, I mean, it's interesting.

His assessment is that if the RAF has to tackle the Luffaffer on its own, it'll do it, but it's a slim chance, which is interesting.

You know, it's informed by the fact that everything's been a calamity so far.

It must have felt like we cannot get anything right.

If you're one of those people in that situation, our army can't fight.

Our air force, we can't get it right yet.

We just can't answer what the Germans are doing.

You know, in a modern palace, they're completely inside our OODA loop.

They're outthinking us the entire time.

So he is there with all the collected intelligence chiefs getting these daily briefings.

And on the back of this,

he knows what the king has written.

He doesn't know what the king has written in his diary, but he's getting the same message.

What the king has heard from Churchill.

And that realistically, the only way they're going to get out of this complete pickle is by evacuating the BEF.

But how the hell do you do that?

And he just cannot imagine this happening.

And he goes, it looked as if the whole British field army, men, guns, vehicles, ammunition, tanks, everything, would cease to exist.

Well, at that point, we shall take a quick break.

We'll return on Saturday, the 25th of May, the halt order's now in effect, and find out what happened next.

Because they didn't know.

That's the thing to remember.

They had no idea.

Charlie Sheen is an icon of decadence.

I lit the fuse and my life turns into everything it wasn't supposed to be.

He's going the distance.

He was the highest paid TV star of all time.

When it started to change, it was queer.

He kept saying, no, no, no, I'm in the hospital now, but next week I'll be ready for the show.

Now, Charlie's sober.

He's going to tell you the truth.

How do I present this with any class?

I think we're past that, Charlie.

We're past that, yeah.

Somebody call action.

Aka Charlie Sheen, only on Netflix, September 10th.

Right, Saturday the 25th of May.

Dadie Penner says in her diary, it was another glorious day, if one really noticed the weather.

So she's obviously got other things on her mind.

Maybe this is a mark of the depth of the emergency here in that a British person is no longer noticing the weather.

I mean, that's the...

It's that

bad.

So what's happening in cabinet?

Well, also, just one other point on this is just that I think what Dadie Penner is writing in her diary on the 25th, on Saturday the 25th of May, is reflective of the fluctuating emotions and thoughts that the public are having.

You know, the day before she's sort of thinking, yeah, well, maybe we'll hold the line.

The next day, she's going, I'm, you know, effectively saying, I'm so distracted, I can't even notice the weather.

You know, I think one has to try and put oneself in the shoes of those people there in that third week of May 1940 and just the huge strategic earthquake that's taken place.

You know, people would just be in disbelief.

The speed with which this has happened, the speed with which the great alliance of France and Britain is completely unraveled is shocking everyone.

And now the fact that the Minister of Information is preparing the nation for potential invasion by German, Nazi German forces, it must have just seemed absolutely incomprehensible.

And for the ministers.

And the thing that is important to bear in mind, that's the legacy of the summer of 1940, is basically everything has been turned upside down.

It's completely rev, in a sense, a completely revolutionary moment, isn't it?

A lot of the old certainties have been kept going despite the First World War, despite how the disaster that is the First World War.

There are still things people believe in, like British power and the fact that the empire is our greatest resource, blah, blah, blah.

But if we can't defend ourselves in Europe, what's the point of having an empire?

What's the point of any of it?

Must be what's part of what people are thinking.

And when we talked about the Blitz, you know, London, the center of global power being attacked from the sky.

These are absolute psychic body blows to the way that people view themselves and the country.

Absolutely.

So Saturday, the 25th of May.

First war cabinet meeting is in the morning.

Then there's various chief of staff meetings, reports, messages arriving.

And then finally, there's a defense committee meeting, which is a kind of sort of a combination of the chiefs of staff and the war cabinet.

And General Dill is

the chief of the Imperial General's staff already, I think, at this point.

Tiny Arnside's been sacked.

His report shows that while Gort has been keeping General Blanchard, who's one of the, he's the French Army Group commander, keeping him informed of all his decisions.

The French haven't really been doing the same to the British.

So you can see that the French are looking for an excuse to cancel the Wegan plan, which is this huge great counter-attack, and then turning the blame on court.

And Chamberlain says that because the information given to us by Weygand himself as to the capture of Amiens, Albury, and Perron on May the 23rd turned out to be false.

Well, I mean, yeah, the truth is the French don't know what's going on either.

So

anything you're getting from them is crap.

Yes, there is this growing scent that the French are pulling the rug from under them.

Although the French are also probably thinking, well, the British look like they're about to bugger off.

I mean, you know.

Yeah, put it from their point of view.

Marichal Petin has joined, has been brought into the government.

He's now the new defence minister, and he's the hero of Verdun from the First World War and all the rest of it, now in his 80s.

And Vegand

was his chief of staff, if I remember rightly, at Verdun.

You know, the two are old colleagues and friends, and they're clearly in this together.

And neither of them are very keen on.

continuing well and the french army is a gerontocracy which is part of the problem isn't it he's not defence minister he's vice prime minister That's what he is.

Lots and lots of old, old, old blokes.

I mean, in a way, bringing Pétain back is sort of like, say, there were a national emergency in 1960, getting Churchill out of retirement and putting him in charge, isn't it?

Yeah.

You know, and Pétain wants the war over.

He doesn't want to fight.

I mean, if you are the hero of Xavier Verdin, fine, but you know exactly what that entails.

That group of people, they meet in Paris on the 25th at the Comité de Guerre.

Weguin tells Renault Pétain, the president, Albert Lebrun, that the situation is hopeless.

France shouldn't have, has made the mistake of entering a war that it isn't prepared for, doesn't have the doctrine for.

He says it is probable that we will have to pay dearly for this criminal thoughtlessness.

That's what he sounded like.

That fair is very good.

I'm happy with that.

And so basically, there's movement within that committee that they need to make a separate peace.

They've got to accommodate the Germans.

This is what's happening.

at this moment in in France.

And you can see why.

Again, look at it from their point of view.

You can see why.

But it's certainly not what they've agreed to with the British.

Well, the issue is part of the alliance states that one side can't make a separate, you know, can't operate outside the other.

So in other words, you can't start negotiating for surrender if you're France without Britain also negotiating for surrender.

You know, you're in it together.

You're joined at the hip.

And this in the ensuing days is going to cause all sorts of problems because suddenly the allies are mistrustful of one another because national interest is taking precedence over the interests of the alliance.

It speaks to how all of the policy in dealing with Germany has been done up to this point.

No one is thinking particularly consequentially about any decisions they make.

They aren't thinking through, well, that will mean should things go wrong, what if things go wrong?

You know,

no one has considered this.

The fact that two governments that have found it very difficult to agree on how to deal with Germany should then commit to a binding alliance like this.

You know, when things really hit the fan, the suggestion that they're going to be able to cope with this or have the processes and structures in place to be able to deal with a hammer blow is also fanciful because if they can't do it when they're kind of you know materially on top, they're certainly not going to be able to fall.

Anyway, you know, Raynaud recognises that at the very least they owe it to the British to explain the current thinking and situation.

So he tells the Comité de guerre that the following day he's going to fly to London.

Of course, Churchill doesn't know anything about these conversations because he's not a fly on the wall, but it doesn't take a rocket science to work out that the

French are.

There's a second meeting of the Defence committee at around 10 p.m.

that night Saturday the 25th of May he says if France went out of the war she must however make it a condition that our army was allowed to leave France intact and to take away its munitions and that the soil of France was not used for an attack on England furthermore France must retain her fleet there you are that's the key thing the last bit obviously I mean it it's quite interesting that demonstrates that the British and the French they know there's a there's only one result coming here for France They're 4-0 down, aren't they?

Exactly.

There's a proper wishful thinking in what Churchill suggests there.

The idea that the army could leave France intact, take its stuff.

He's going to end up whistling those conditions.

But it says it's when, not if, isn't it?

The alliance is.

But that's still a, you know, this is Saturday, the 25th of May.

This is 15 days since the Germans attacked.

You know, this is a little over fortnight, and already they're thinking in this terms.

It's just, it's incredible.

Yes, extraordinary.

Gort thinks, doesn't he, that the BEF is going to be lost, most of it.

Churchill does as well.

Then it's time for the Luftwaffe to come against Britain.

And as we heard Tommy Elmerhurst's assessment, that will be a close-run thing.

But the bottom line is that the Luftwaffe has, you know, has reigned supreme in the skies of Europe over Poland, over Denmark, over Norway, over Holland, over Belgium, you know, bombing of Rotterdam

so far in northern France.

The Army de l'Air of the French Air Force has been crushed.

The REF has sort of kind of held its own just about.

And yes, Britain has the world's only air defense system, coordinated air defense system, but it hasn't been tested.

You know, it's never been tried.

And if you're of a gloomy disposition, you wouldn't bet on it working, would you?

Not from where you're looking on the 24th, Saturday, the 25th of May, 1940.

And that's the point.

You know, it hasn't been run through the mill yet.

So what would happen when the mighty Luftwaffe, which everyone thinks is much bigger than it actually is, is unleashed on Britain?

You know, will Britain's Britain's defense system hold?

Will Britain crumble too?

Also hovering in the background of the Italians, you know, the Italians are the allies of Germany.

Yes.

And so on the 16th, Churchill had appealed to Mussolini.

This is pretty purple, some of this prose, isn't it?

I mean, and you can see a character like Mussolini not responding to this, right?

Down the ages, above all other calls, came the cry that the joint heirs of Latin and Christian civilization must not be ranged against one another in mortal strife.

Hearken to it, I beseech you, in all honour and respect, before the dread signal is given.

It will never be given by us.

Mussolini says, Well, you know, you've entered the war to honor your treaty with the Poles, and we have a treaty that we can't dishonour our treaty with Germany.

Pat to steal, bad luck.

In other words, you can see Mussolini slapping his thigh as he draws up this telegram, doesn't he?

I mean, ha ha,

Mr.

Churchill, no thanks.

Non grazi prego, whatever.

I'm sorry, we're resorting to stereotypes at this dangerous time.

But if you can't have a go at Mussolini, who can you have a go at?

And Churchill says the response was hard.

It had at least the merit of candor.

Well, no, because only he's interesting himself.

It's funny, but it's but he's got a point.

Up to this point, all of the diplomatic dealings the British have had to try and do with

European powers have been wreathed in lies and dissembling.

And, you know, Mussolini is at least being candid.

Yeah, we're sorry.

Sorry, mate.

We're coming in.

But again, you know, just put yourself in the British shoes and, you know, you've got this sort of, you've got so much uncertainty.

You know, what's coming?

Is the Luff Rofer going to attack?

Is Italy going to enter the war?

You know,

you're confronting so many ifs and buts and you're having to plan for all these uncertainties, all these unknowables.

And yet at the same time, the one thing you do know is that the BEF is stranded in France and needs to get back.

It needs to get back PDQ.

So, I mean, it's clear, isn't it?

Everyone on both, people on both sides of the channel, at the highest level, if you're Daddy Penner, you know what's going on, kind of.

Well, you know, it's not good, put it that way.

But if you're, if you're, if you're the leaders at the top in both France and Britain, you're starting to think similarly.

You've had it.

Your goose is cooked.

What you're realizing is this is completely unprecedented.

Yeah.

All the people in France, they absolutely, you know, Petan, Vegan,

they know it's toast because militarily they know they can't get out of this picture.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

In Britain, it's kind of, oh my God, you know, the BF is going to be cut off.

Where does that leave us?

You know, with our armies defeated, humiliated around the, you know, globally, where does that leave us in terms of our ability to continue the war?

And are we then going to face, you know, paratroopers from this unstoppable Nazi war machine that's pounding down and laying waste to absolutely everything that crosses its path?

And, you know, there's nothing like seeing a mighty ally who was steadfast during the previous incredibly long, brutal war crumble just like that to make you think yikes we're uh we're in the doo-doo yes it's a weeks long time in politics a fortnight is an even longer time in this situation isn't it well certainly during in in these these blitzkrieg years it is just it is simply amazing this all happens so fast isn't it

so amazing yeah torrent of events and germans rolling the dice and coming up sixes every single time it's the well yeah you know there's obviously going to be a number of people in britain who are now thinking well you know is it better to quit now rather than keep going?

Yeah.

Of all the kind of loss of life, all the terrors that, you know, dragging on the war when the outcome looks so set already.

But they're not thinking clearly, is the truth of it.

Well, no, but you could argue who could in this situation.

Imperial prestige and power and everything are all suddenly up in the air, isn't it?

It's the fact.

So early on that Saturday, the 25th of May.

1940, Lord Halifax, Foreign Secretary, the man who most people had expected expected to take over from Chamberlain, but then found himself with stomach cramps and come facing the Holy Fox.

The holy fox.

Yeah.

He meets with Signor Giuseppe Bastianini.

Bastianini is the Italian ambassador in London.

And he's been quite upfront about this.

He's told Churchill what he's doing and the PM agrees.

So long as absolutely no word of the meeting gets out.

Anyway, they meet that afternoon and in a conversation that's sort of shrouded in diplomatic euphemism, Halifax asked Bastianini whether there is any way in which Italy could be persuaded to stay out of the war.

And Bastianini replies that he would, of course, pass on any offer

and then asks what Halifax thinks Britain might be open, whether Britain might be open to a broader discussion, not just of Italy, but with Inverted Commas other countries as well.

So this is the Imperial question we're just talking about.

Suddenly everything's on the table.

Yeah, you know, so would you hand over control of Suez Canal?

Would you hand over Malta?

Yeah.

You know, what's the bargaining chip here?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But other countries in inverted commas is one other country, and that's Nazi Germany.

Yeah.

So Halifax says, well, that's going to be a little bit tricky while the war's still going on.

And Bastinini says, once such a discussion were begun, the war would be pointless.

Anyway, both agree that their countries would be willing to discuss, you know, some settlement that protected European peace for the next century.

You know, so it's not stuff

and Halifax for one is really starting to think okay what's the way out here yeah and it's important to stress that at this point in May 1914 not only is he the foreign secretary he is also one of the most respected men in Britain known for his sound judgment yeah he's a statesman rather than a politician in his he's a statesman yeah he's a former kind of viceroy of India and all the rest of it knows everybody personal friends with the king blah blah blah meanwhile on the other side of the channel, you know, they're seriously thinking about evacuating the BEF as the only solution now.

And they need to do so PDQ before they get completely surrounded.

And while it's a kind of sort of miracle that the panzers seem to have halted, giving them all a bit of breathing space, that could stop any minute.

So Gort, General Gort, VC, who is the Commander-in-Chief of the BEF, has already given the order for the evacuation of all Inverted Commons useless mouths through Boulogne and Calais and Dunkirk on the 19th of May.

And these are, you know, these are non-combat troops as well as sick and wounded and so on.

Whilst at the same time at Boulogne, two guards battalions arrive fresh from Dover on the 21st to help cover the evacuation.

And then, once this is complete, and having fought a rear guard, they then re-embarked on the night of 23rd of May.

Calais was also reinforced with a battalion of the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment and 30th Brigade, hastily dispatched.

And they're told, hold the town, block the roads, and do your bit for Boulogne as well and by the time 30th brigade reaches Calais on the 23rd of May it's far too late already to save Boulogne and instead Brigadier Claude Nicholson begins organizing the defense of Calais the port and later that day um 23rd of May Nicholson had received fresh orders to try and force a desperately needed convoy of rations and fuel through to Dunkirk by the following morning with Gudarian's panzers already surrounding the port this also proves impossible I suppose what it actually does is diverts Gudarian's effort rather than anything else.

He's still halted, don't forget.

Exactly, but gives him something else to look at rather than because otherwise it's pointless, isn't it?

It's all pointless.

It's too late.

These efforts are essentially hollow, aren't they?

It's just the situation is totally out of the control.

And they'll be in Third World Tank Regiment.

They'll be in Matilda 1s, won't they?

They'll be in nothing that spectacular, I imagine.

Exactly.

They're no answer to the German armoured thing

as it is.

But Nicholson, once he realizes that

his brigade, freshly arrived brigade in Calais is surrounded, you know, he then also gives the orders to prepare for evacuation.

But on the 24th of May, all control of the Channel Ports is handed over to General Marie-Bertrand Alfred Fagald of the French 16 Corps, and he immediately forbids any further evacuation.

No, Zele, you stay here, you fight till Le Moore.

And this is upheld by Churchill.

Fascinating.

Well, what's he to do?

It's the 24th of May.

Okay, they're not talking about evacuation yet.

You know, they're still allies of France.

You can't be kind of, you know, leading and running.

No, you can't.

You know, it's politics.

But Churchill also thinks that to kind of, you know, abandon Calais would be madness at this point.

Oh, you better do this.

The only effect of evacuating Calais would be to transfer the forces now blocking it to Dunkirk.

Calais must be held for many reasons, but especially to hold the enemy on its front.

So Nicholson's then is being told, well, hang on in there.

You're on your own.

And what does Nicholson do?

Very well, sir.

Yeah, of course.

Brigade of Guards, old boy.

What else is he going to do?

Could you fix me a cup of tea while you're out here?

He'll be sitting up very straight in his chair, in his headquarters, when he receives that news.

I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?

Because the effort in Calais is the one that in the right-wing press in Britain that people's imagination focuses on, and then Dunkirk becomes the story.

But the Brigade of Guards doing its thing and fighting valiant action and all that sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's very reassuring to the establishment end of things.

Yes.

Anyway, later that day, you know, although Guderian's men are halted, they're halted in a surrounded position.

His 2nd Panzer Division sends a surrender demand to Nicholson.

The brigadier replied sterkily.

He says, the answer is no, as it is the British Army's duty to fight, as well as it is the Germans.

Suspended, isn't it?

Anyway,

so ends Saturday.

the 25th of May 1940.

And in the next episode, we'll be looking at the next day in these five days of May.

Sunday, the 26th of May, the National Day of Prayer.

Yes, because prayer is what is required at this difficult time.

The fan has been hit with an awful lot of excrement at this point.

There is more to come, isn't there?

The fan is going to get far more clogged up as we go.

Thanks, everybody, for listening.

We will be back with, well, a day of prayer, won't we, Jim?

I'll be on my knees in this next episode.

Pleading to the Almighty that our listeners return.

Thanks, everyone, for listening.

And don't forget, this kind of war waffle in big chunks is available to you without adverts if you subscribe to our Apple channel or if you become a Patreon member where you get live casts.

Get the opportunity to watch me and Jim war waffle away in person and ask questions as it happens.

And very much interact.

And very much interact.

Or you could join us at We have Waste Fest in September, the 12th to the 14th of September, Black Pit Brewery next door to Silverstone, where it's a whole weekend of this stuff.

Plus tanks, planes, modeling nerds, everything you could possibly hope for on the subject of the Second World War, and amazing guests.

Some of whom, the speakers are already up on our website.

We have waste.

Some of them, not all of them, some of them, but not all of them.

And there's some amazing rabbits to be pulled from hats as we go forward.

Anyway, thanks for listening, everybody.

We will see you all very soon.

Cheerio!

Cheerio.