The Case Against General Patton

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Welcome to AF Ways and Making You Talk with me, Al Murray, James Holland.

As you're probably aware, this is, we are actually at the halfway mark in our best in the West, or Best of West Point.

Is that what what we're talking about?

That sounds good.

And we're talking in best of West Point and we're talking about Americans.

Yeah, Americans.

And we worked away through seven of our American top candidates.

And of course, it's not just up to us.

You can go to our We Have Waste Patreon and vote.

And we're going to use your votes and the response to this to guide us to a resolution.

for this argument about who the best generals of the Second World War were.

We'll never have to confront it ever again.

It'll be settled at We Have Waste Fest and no one shall speak of this topic ever again.

That's our core aim here is to finally shut this down forever, you know, because so much ink has been spilled over so much of this.

There just didn't need to be.

You could be arguing about T34s and Shermans, and you're busy arguing about Patton and Monty.

Anyway, our Americans continue.

When we talked about Alan

Brooke rather than Alan Brooke in the British episodes, Almerie.

Almerie, Jimmerland.

So weird.

Never got to the bottom.

No one's ever explained to me why he chose to call himself Alanbrook.

Lord Almury.

Lord Almury.

Lord Jimlin.

It's got a ring to it.

Well, I think Jimmeland is definitely.

Lord Jimmeland joins us now.

Come on, let's get on with it.

We've got to talk about Marshall.

Well, we've got to talk about George C.

Marshall.

But when we talked about Alanbrook, we very much said, you know, how do you actually, you know, because lots of this is apples and oranges is what we've been talking about.

You know, you compare an army group commander to an armoured division commander.

They're not poles poles apart, but there are big differences.

And in a way, George C.

Marshall sits above the fray almost literally, doesn't he?

Yep.

And he's such a big figure, and he's so important to the American conduct of the War Office.

Basically, nearly everyone we've talked about in the last American episode, at some point, the person has come into Marshall's orbit and been spotted and been sort of had their card marked, right?

He's core, a core person in the process that the Americans undergo as they put the war effort together.

So he's from Pennsylvania, born in 1880.

Yep.

So, you know, he's old.

He's old.

That's right.

Yeah.

He's a senior person.

He, you know, graduates the Virginia Military Institute in 1901.

So, you know, well before all the sort of starry generals we've been talking about.

But he's known, he's very dedicated, he's calm, he's exceptional organizational skills.

So it sounds quite unlike me.

And he's served in the Philippines in 1902, 1903.

He's a turn of the century active soldier, isn't he?

Goes to France in the First World War as part of the American Expeditionary Force.

He's involved in the Meurs-Argonne offensive and he's spotted by General John J.

Pershing, who's the sort of previous generation for his organizational brilliance.

And then, you know, it's the interwar period.

It's the same thing.

But the point is, he's that much older than all the people we've been talking about so far.

15 years older than most of them.

Well, he becomes, and he also, he becomes Chief of Staff.

in 19 in September 1939.

Yeah, yeah.

And he's still chief of staff

in August 1945.

That's actually the really important thing.

Buck doesn't get in until the end of 1941.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, he is there for the whole thing.

He is without question the architect of U.S.

grand strategy.

You know, I know Phillips Pays and O'Brien will argue for Leahy and having a greater role, who's the direct advisor to Roosevelt.

But again, Marshall is this towering figure.

You know, he is the guy who, along with Roosevelt, has overseen the transformation of America as the 19th largest army to, you know, the biggest in the world.

The balancing of political constraints, the inter-allied relations which he has to manage.

His role as a talent spotter, I think, is really important.

You know, he is the guy who spots Eisenhower, Clark, Bradley.

I mean, you know, these are all his appointments.

Yeah.

What is really striking about that is it's when he's appointed chief of staff on the 1st of September 1939.

And that's the day him and Roosevelt decide they've got to turn the army around.

You know, before the war in Europe or the day the war in Europe has begun, you know, the prescience and then also political capital that has to expend on that is, you know, critical to the development of the American army.

And, you know, this is the high point of isolationism when they decide to expand the army.

And he is also, and post-war, he's also arguably the most successful Secretary of State ever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, he's so obviously a titanic, great man, but he's not a battlefield commander.

So I, you know, I just, I'm just going to exclude him from my own personal list on this, although I think he is, you know, I think he's one of the great figures of the Second World War.

Yeah.

Because it is, it's just this problem of sort of comparing a battlefield commander or even an army group commander with someone like him, which is a much more political role, let's face it.

Yeah.

But in that political role, managing the armed forces, you know, he is supreme.

I mean, he is incredibly good.

You know, and aren't we lucky the Americans appointed him in?

September 1939.

I think we can say that we are.

Next on our list, though, Lieutenant General Troy Middleton.

Now, I'm a bit of a fan of Troy Middleton.

Yeah, me too.

Because, again, he's born in 1889.

Brave as a lion.

Yeah.

Hillsborough, Mississippi.

Grew up on a farm, attended at Mississippi Agricultural and Mechanical College, and then joins the Army as a private on the 3rd of March, 1910, because he's unable to enroll at West Point.

Still too young.

He's only 19 and too young to apply for commission.

Promoted to corporal after 27 months, passes the exams to become an officer in 1912, but not commissioned until 1913.

teaches himself he's like gamut you know he he just goes right i'm going to do this and he's incredibly sporty he's a brilliant um american football player but he's good at all sports even though he's sort of you know in later life when you see pictures of him he's kind of got round spectacles he looks a bit bookish back in the day he was like mr hunk yeah well so then he has a he's involved in the hunt for pancho villa yes in mexico because that's the other thing to remember about the american armies they're doing that stuff like that as well which we seems to sort of belong to the kind of days of the american west you know revolvers and things And do you know what I mean?

Yes.

And there's a whole thing where Patton uses motor cars for that, which blows everyone's minds.

And, you know, he picks up at the Distinguished Service Cross, the Silver Star in his time in France, and then grinds his way through all these regimental and staff assignments.

He's an instructor at Fort Benning.

We're slipping into the sort of the axiomatic.

He's an action trainer.

He's a great tactician.

But he sees time in the Philippines.

Exactly.

He becomes good friends of Weisnab.

But he retires from the army in 1937 as a half-colonel.

That's it.

I'm done.

But then after Pearl Harbor offers to rejoin, and so does as a lieutenant colonel on the 20th of January 1942, within six months, he's a brigadier general and posted to 45th Division.

And before the summer is out, he's promoted again to major general and given command of the 45th Division.

And this is part of the old clearing out of the old guard, which might seem odd for someone who's already retired from the army once.

He's actually pretty dynamic.

You know, and he's clever and he's been there and he's got the t-shirt and he's actually seen lots of action and he commands the 45th infantry division on the state side he's not involved in north africa hosted north africa um in april 1943 for planning for for husky but he's not in part he doesn't actually take part in the team discipline campaign then leads the 45th infantry division um in in husky so the invasion of sicily and again does really really well you know does really well at salerno yeah and then and we talked about this he has a problem with a long-term a chronic knee injury yeah which has suffered during you know his football days yeah and he's so he's he's um in hospital in naples by late november 1943 it looks like his war's over he's sent back to the us to recuperate there's this really brilliant thing eisenhower saying i don't give a damn about his knees i want his head and his heart and i'll take him into battle on a litter if we have to and you're like that's how they rate the guy yeah and if ike rates him then who are we to kind of disagree well and but also if if ike rates him who's anyone else to disagree within the american you know ike gets what he wants right so he's sent back to take command of 8 Corps in February 1944 with a physio in tow, sergeant physiotherapist,

to take over from a general Emil F.

Reinhart.

Sounds like he might be on the other side, who's brought 8 Corps from the US, but has no combat experience.

And then is part, obviously, part of the

second wave with First Army in Normandy.

comes on the 11th, they land on the 11th of June and, you know, fight to the Cotatan Peninsula.

You know, there is a a sense that he can sort of nurture people and take them on, and he can turn sort of, you know,

not great divisions into really good divisions and so on.

And late July, he's also, along with Collins's 7 Corps, he's in part of Operation Cobra.

And again, they do really well.

Incidentally, he's personally warns General McNair to keep away from the bombing that obviously kills him.

That kills him.

When General McNair is killed on the 24th in the first bit, isn't it?

And originally, he was, you know, 7 8th Corps rather is supposed to be part of Third Army, gets moved into 1st Army just before D-Day.

And now gets moved back again on the 1st of August when Third Army comes into being.

And he has two armoured divisions, two infantry divisions.

And he is at this moment at the beginning of August, with Patton now in charge, he is momentarily a bit thrown by the kind of cut and thrust of armoured warfare.

But he adapts.

That's the point.

And he does very well in Brittany.

You know, he kind of mops everything up.

From criticising him, seven weeks later, Patton gives him the distinguished service medal, says, you know, you're the man.

So

there's a sense of adaptability in Middleton, I think, which is really...

The moment he really shines, though, is in the Battle de Bulge, isn't it?

When it's his corps that are holding the thin defended sector in the Ardennes, including Bastogne.

He recognises for what it is, organises 101st Airborne to garrison Bastogne as a strong point, block that nodal point for the Germans.

He runs all the delaying actions, defensive withdrawals to buy time for people.

It's him deciding to hold, who decides to hold Bastoyne.

I know everyone knows it's Easy Company who do that.

I'm aware that everyone knows that, that Easy Company make that decision to win the Battle of the Bulge on their own.

But it's actually

Troy Middleton whose decisions and his ability to react as the German cascade of offensives comes at him and to stay cool.

And again, cooperating very closely with Patton to enable the relief of Bastoyne.

And I think because he's come through the army as a private, because he's self-taught, you get this feeling that it's not about a career, it's about what it means to him somehow.

I like the guy.

Yeah, me too.

You know, he boys flamboyant.

He's not a show pony.

But he's kind of decisive, isn't he?

He's clearly got great tactical judgment.

He's composed.

He's smart as anything.

You know, a good man in a crisis and a good man not in a crisis, frankly.

But Patton calls him one of the ablest corps commanders in the U.S.

Army.

And that's the point.

He doesn't get beyond core.

But the question is, though, because this is the name of the game, is he better or worse than General Alexander Patch?

Wow.

Yes, that's what we're doing here.

Well, Patch is another of the Forgotten Men, isn't he?

Because largely because he's in Sixth Army Group, he's Dragoon.

He's been in the East.

He's been at Guallow Canal, Solomon Islands.

He's been the other end of the world.

Yeah, well, I think that's to his massive advantage in my book.

Yes, but it also, it's one of the reasons you end up when you get to the West.

You may be that little bit lower down the pecking order.

not quite as well known.

You haven't been in the spotlight because the European theatre is an easier place for journalists to to go for instance you know one of the things that bradley does is he makes sure he's talking to the press keeps them ticking over patton is very good at delivering copy the public focus is on those western on the european theatre battles isn't it yeah yeah and so if you've spent two years in guadalcanal and the solomon islands you might not be on the tip of everyone's tongue right and i think that partly patches problem isn't it yeah well let's just very quickly he's born in 1889 he graduates from west point in 1913 He's with the 18th Infantry Regiment, part of the 1st Infantry Division, which, of course, the 18th Infantry Infantry land on Omar on D-Day.

And he sees plenty of action in France, fights some key battles of Cantonese, Soisson, Merz-Agon offensive, gets the Distinguished Service Cross for heroism, into war service, mixture of regimental and staff posts, you know, instructors, graduates from one general staff school, army war college, tick, tick, tick.

And, you know, by 1940, he's a colonel commanding 47th Infantry Regiment.

He's a little bit older than the others, most of them.

You know, he just is a bit.

Promoted Major General in May 1942, assigned to the South Pacific, takes command of 14 Corps in December 1942 during the Guadalcanal campaign, and he replaces the Marine General Alexander Vandergrift,

big figure in the Pacific War, as the overall ground commander on the island.

So, you know, Lawton Collins, for example, who we've talked about already, he's serving underneath at this point.

So directs joint Army-Marine operations, you know, which I think is important

and gets high praise for his ability to coordinate Army, Marine, and Allied units.

So, you know, and in challenging jungle warfare conditions.

So pretty impressive.

New Georgia campaign.

Then returns to the US, is reassigned to the European theatre, promoted to lieutenant general in March of 44.

He's given 7th Army, who are training in North Africa for the invasion of southern France.

So for Dragoon.

So this is after Patton's been sacked.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, so when we talked about Divas, you know, you know, if you are part of Dragoon, you are not top of everyone's list, are you?

Adventure and excitement.

You can advance briskly into the Alsace if you want, but people don't know about that, do they?

Or care less about that.

But again, you know, he again is another one of the few American generals that has to do proper coalition warfare because I think you know, it's one thing doing it with the British.

I think it's another thing doing it with the French with different languages and stuff.

And particularly when the French have got, you know, troops who are not all French, they're also Tunisian, Moroccan, Algerian, and all the rest of it.

You know, it comes with a series, you know, a certain amount of challenges.

And he's very good on that and very good on the welfare of his men.

You know, his combat experience is is extensive and that puts him in a you know with him and collins you know he's he's in a very very small band of people that have seen service throughout the globe uh and i think that puts him on a different pedestal to be perfectly honest you know i think that makes him pretty good okay but uh the question is does that make him better or worse than our next candidate who after the break ladies and gentlemen we will be coming to talk about

Oh, well, it's time to do it.

We've got to talk about Georgie.

We've got to talk about George.

We'll see you after the break for George S.

Patton, who we are going to canter through, which is what he'd appreciate.

He wants things done quickly.

See you in a moment.

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Welcome back to We Have Ways of Making You Talk.

Best in the West, part 2.5.

I don't know.

Look, it's.

Yeah, whatever.

It doesn't matter.

Second part.

Okay, I don't think he would appreciate the cantering through.

I think he wants to spend lots of time on him.

He wants lingering consideration.

General George S.

Patton.

I think we don't really need to say much about Patton.

He's someone.

If you've heard about the Second World War, then you've heard of him, right?

It's kind of that.

It's a movie about him.

Exactly.

As JR, our producer says, be wary of any man who designs his own uniforms.

Except Alexander and his hat.

Every rule has its exception, Jim, and you have just found it.

But also, he's older than most.

You know, he's 1885.

You know, he graduates from West Point in 1909, so he's a little bit older.

But let's face it, he's seen action in Mexico.

He's been in the First World War.

He's been there, done it, North Africa.

You know, he's a man of destiny.

He slaps a...

a guy at the end of a Sicilian campaign, having done really well.

And we have also said that he's not just a cut cut and thruster.

He's a very, very good operational commander.

And actually, it's his operational brilliance, I think, that makes him really, really stand out.

You can't do cut and thrust if you're not operationally sound.

It's impossible.

You end up off balance.

You end up running into trouble.

And it's the sort of when people talk about German cut and thrust, you know, Guderian said logistics is the ball and chain of armoured warfare.

George Patton might say that to a journalist, but he wouldn't believe it for a moment.

When Patton's talking about, we'll improvise this, but he's not improvising at all.

There's the public face he presents.

The guy pissing off the bridge at Remigan or whatever.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

The general with the shiny helmet, if a better way of putting it.

You know, he's basically, he's presenting that, but under the, internally, in terms of how he's running his armies, how he's running his staff, it's all about getting the dead right operationally.

And I think...

I think one of the things we talked about over the years is how quickly he learns as well.

It's one of the interesting things about Patton.

Well, yes, because he's certainly not the finished product in Tunisia, for example.

Alexander keeps him on a very tight leash and kind of changes his orders six times to him in just over a month, which is absolutely the right thing to do because he knows he's a firebrand and is worried that he's going to get ahead of himself.

And he learns and he absorbs those lessons.

And the operational battle he fights in Sicily when he kind of sweeps westwards, which is an easy battle in terms of the combat, but a difficult battle in terms of

operational movement, is really, really impressive.

And also is an incredibly good, useful learning tool for all those troops that are involved in that.

And don't forget, you know, some some of the subordinate commanders there are people like Bradley and others.

One of the things that's very strange, though, once the war fighting ends, and this happens to a lot of big general protagonists in the Second World War, is once the fighting ends, he doesn't really know what to do with himself.

And he's given the job of being military governor of Bavaria by Ike, which is a rotten appointment, really.

He doesn't agree with denazification.

He wants war with the Russians.

He says, you know, what we ought to do is be getting on with killing Russians and all this sort of thing.

And he's openly anti-Semitic.

I mean, really, really badly.

I mean, you know, he doesn't even hide it.

it.

You know he refers to them as the stinking mass of humanity and as locus and at one point even calls Jews lower than animals.

You know refuses to have Jewish captains.

Eisenhower is really shocked by this.

You know he's known Pat a long time.

He's resuscitated his career a number of times having sacked him after Sicily.

Don't forget he's sacked.

You know, there's a reason why he's not an army group commander.

He's an army commander and he doesn't get any higher than that.

And he relieves him of his command of military governorship and of the command of the third army in October 1945 because of this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, you know, it doesn't matter how cut and thrust he is and how much charisma he's got and how brilliant he is as an operational commander and tactical commander.

That is a big stain.

Yeah.

You just don't behave like that.

You know, Monty can be abrasive and tricky and cussed, but he doesn't talk like that.

No, he doesn't.

It's disgusting.

And it was disgusting at the time.

Go vote for someone else, therefore, is what Jim's trying trying to say to you on our Patreon.

Yeah,

next, General Matt Ridgway.

And we talked about Jim Gavin earlier as a sort of airborne pioneer.

This is Ridgway is one of the people who also spots airborne as an opportunity and gravitates towards it and is tangled up in the sort of airborne shenanigans of the Second World War.

And Ridgeway.

And Jay Mack absolutely loves him.

John McMahon loves this guy.

He's a really impressive character, though.

Really, really impressive character.

He's at West Point in 1917 in this accelerated class.

He's born in 1895.

His dad's a soldier, until he ran a gunner.

And so he knows the army.

He's grown up on army postings and doesn't see combat in the First World War, but goes to China and Nicaragua.

That's how we say it now, isn't he?

He serves in the 15th Infantry Regiment in China from 1925 to 1927.

So he's, you know, he's been around the block, commander, general staff school, army war college.

35, 37 respectively.

He goes into the War Department.

He's an instructor at West Point.

He's also, see, he's also kind of, you know, the classic American, isn't he?

He's sort of square-jawed and kind of

looks tough and looks like, you know, he's an amazing sportsman.

And if you looked at him, you would, you would know it couldn't be any other way.

I mean, there's, there's lots and lots of images of him sort of staring into the middle distance, looking sort of decisive and

yeah, and he's got sort of two lines either side of his either side of his mouth and his jaw is about as square as a breeze block and you know that's right yeah and that there um you know there's a life magazine cover, and you know, there he is.

He looks like an American general in a way that no Brit ever could.

Exactly right.

There's great pictures of him with sort of field dressing on his, on his jump, on a, on his webbing, on his jumpsuit, and then, you know, but he's so integral.

He's integral to the U.S.

Army's first airborne division, which is 82nd Airborne.

And we talked about how Gavin's involved in writing the manual.

It's Ridgway who

takes 82nd Infantry Division from Bradley.

I mean, this thing, all these people tangled up together and creates the US 82nd Airborne.

And it's all about, you know, physical being fit, unit cohesion, small dispersed combat teams, all this sort of stuff.

Does he learn to parachute?

I can't remember.

Does he always arrive by glider?

I think he does learn to parachute, doesn't he?

Yeah, no, he does learn to parachute.

He's there doing the stuff that airborne commanders have to do, where he's grabbing the, in Husky, he's grabbing together the guys he can find, scattered landings, all this sort of thing.

He's very, very good at being that counter-attacking, aggressive airborne officer and running those sort of operations.

And then again, Avalanche, they drop again

504th Parachute Infantry and dropped in daylight.

It's the hallmark of his style: that people are aggressive, they're fit, they're tough as nails, they're salty, and all that sort of thing.

And this is the sort of trademark of the fighting that US 82nd Airborne engage in.

And then because they've been so successful, he is sent upstairs after Normandy, isn't he, to command 18 Airborne Corps, which is basically 82nd, 100 1st Airborne.

They're part of 1st Allied Airborne Army for Market Garden.

It's quite interesting because he turns up, doesn't he, Ridgway?

He shows up and comes in and tries to sort of coordinate the British and the airborne people during Market Garden.

And he's, you know, successful in that.

I always think during Market Garden, he feels a bit like a spare prick.

You've got the generals on the ground who are doing what they can to run the battle, and he sort of turns up wanting to get his thumbprints on a victory, perhaps.

Maybe a bit.

What he really wants to be doing is running one of these divisions, you know.

And then, of course, he's away for the Ardennes, isn't he?

And has to return from a conference.

Yep, yeah, but hurry's back.

He gets there in time.

But he's not there at the crucial bit, obviously, because that's when Gavin takes over from him.

That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And both the airborne divisions are deployed again.

You know, 101st, as we know, at Bastoin on their own without anyone else.

And US 82nd in the Western side of things in the bulge battle.

He's one of these people.

It's a bit of a shame he's promoted in a way because he's just such a fantastic divisional commander.

He's just brilliant at it.

Yeah, but I still think he's good when he's 18 Airborne Corps.

I still think he has an ability to influence stuff because people listen to him.

When he enters the room, people stand up.

You know, he has this incredible sort of presence.

Everyone knows, you know,

he's always carrying a carbine and grenades in his belt.

You know, he's always at the front line, you know, he's never, you know, he's never shirking the, he's a very visible commander.

He's a true pioneer because he is integrating airborne.

He's developing airborne operations.

I mean, so is Gavin, but, but, but he's senior to Gavin.

So he's integrating airborne operations and he's also making them work with more conventional forces.

And I think that's.

makes him stand out.

And then, of course, you know, he's theater commander in Korea later on.

Yeah, well, after MacArthur's fired, isn't he?

I mean, that's the thing.

Takes over.

Right.

General Bill Simpson, Jim.

Yeah, big fan of this guy.

I'm really, really, really big fan.

Tall, thin, amazing coalition general.

Spends a lot of time serving under Montgomery.

Born in 1888.

Graduates from West Point in

1909.

So he's a little bit, you know, he's a little bit older.

He has served in the First World War.

33rd Division takes part in the Mirzagon offensive, gets wounded, Distinguished Service Cross, you know, these are all big ticks.

All the staff appoint, you know, staff schools and stuff, and war college does all that.

He's a brigadier general by October 1941.

But, you know, he is training in the US for much of the war.

And it's not until September 1943 that he's given command of 12 Corps.

12 Corps initially based in the UK, preparing for Normandy, but then Simpson gets reassigned to command the newly formed US 9th Army before it even enters combat.

So his first taste of kind of frontline combat since 1917 is in 1944 as an army commander.

So it's a huge leap.

Now, someone somewhere has seen huge potential because he does an absolutely superb job.

He's one of the, for my money, in the Northwest Europe campaign, he is the top dollar US Army commander.

You know, he really is fantastic.

Knife Army has a fantastic campaign.

You know, the Scheldt, the Ruhr operations, the Battle of the Bulge, I mean, they're on the edge of that.

The crossing of the Ruhr and the the Rhine, the encirclement of the Ruhr.

You know, this is all him.

He is the first person.

It's Knife Army that gets the furvest.

They're the first across the river Elbe.

They're all primed to sort of go on and take Berlin, but Eisenhower calls them back.

He is someone who is quiet and methodical as a person, values planning and logistics over showmanship.

doesn't seek media attention, which is why he's not really known.

But he has a fantastic command technique.

He makes sure he speaks to his corps commanders every single day without fail.

He's a brilliant coalition officer, you know, works incredibly well with Monty

and also with Bradley.

He's got a very kind of sort of even temperament.

He's smart, he's self-assured, he has kind of incredible presence.

He's no kind of rollover by any stretch of the imagination.

Tactically, he's very astute.

Operationally, he's spot on.

Strategically, he gets a big thing.

So he is an absolutely complete army commander.

there you cannot fault him in any way whatsoever where he where he loses points in this is that he's a late entry yeah and that's the only thing that works against him because otherwise he's right up there as one of the very best okay and then finally general lucian k truscott i always think lucian's one of those one of those first names you think

yeah he's a very cool guy though he is cool born in january 1895 chatfield texas raised in oklahoma was a school teacher before joining the army um doesn't go to to West Point.

No.

So that's something, isn't it?

Yeah, he's commissioned as a cavalry officer in 1917.

So he's done border patrol on the Mexican border, cavalry postings in the Philippines and the non-imperial American Empire.

He goes to the cavalry school at Fort Riley in Kansas.

Horsemanship and discipline.

But he's also, he knows mechanization's coming.

By 1940, he's a lieutenant colonel.

By 1941, he's a colonel involved in mechanising the U.S.

Army.

Yeah, and he's sent over to Britain.

He's one of the first senior commanders to go over to, as a brigadier general over to the UK in 1942.

And Marshall gives him the task of kind of creating a new equivalent to the British commandos.

The role of actually commanding them is given to William O'Darby, but he's the guy who instigates it and they become, of course, the U.S.

Army Rangers.

And he's the guy who, you know, he's attached to combined operations, then commanded by Mountbatten.

So he learns from then again, he's very good on coalition warfare, all the rest of it.

He commands the third infantry division during Operation Torch.

Third Infantry Division are, you know, to my money, they are, they are the daddy.

They are the single most impressive U.S.

infantry division in World War II.

Full stop, you know, they're everywhere and they see the most action.

They see more combat days of combat action than any other.

And, you know, that's the home of Audi Murphy, the most decorated serviceman of World War II, etc., etc.

And he commands that until he takes over Sixth Corps at Anzio after Lucas is sacked.

And he is just very, very good.

So he sees action in North Africa, in Italy, he's Operation Dragoon, southern France.

And when Clark becomes the army group commander in Italy, he takes over command of US Fifth Army.

So again, he is really, really tip-top.

And he is not as well known because he's not an army commander in Northwest Europe.

He's in Italy.

He's very dynamic and thrusting.

He's skilled in amphibious operations, mountain warfare, combined arms.

He's pragmatic, innovative, and everyone loves him.

You know, he has a reputation second to none.

So he's right up there.

But his problem, kind of, is he's fighting in the theater that people haven't got their eyes on quite as much.

And so that's why maybe Lucian Truscott isn't the top of people's list.

Right, so there we are.

The best of the West American edition.

Go to the Patreon, please, and vote.

And we're going to just do our top one, two, and wild card.

And a few famous that are not included.

Yes, it's quite difficult this.

Well, John Lucas, because he got sacked and he wasn't very good.

Yeah.

Hodges, because he was not the greatest.

He's an army commander, but he's just not very good.

Cota is absolutely brilliant, but doesn't get beyond divisional.

Friedendahl was absolutely hopeless and got sacked, quite right.

General John Lee was a logistics man, doesn't really count.

Jeffrey Keyes did okay in Italy as a Jesus Christ himself, Lee.

That was his music.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jesus Christ himself, Lee.

Jeffrey Keyes, two corps commander in Italy.

You know, he's serviceable, but nothing, nothing.

Other honourable mentions.

Terry De La Maza Allen, brilliant commander of the first infantry division before he's sacked at the end of Sicily by Bradley, actually.

John Iron Micah Daniel takes over as third division commander.

Charles Corlett is really, really good.

Gets sacked for no reason.

Do you remember after the crossing of the Rhine?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leonard Garau.

Girau.

Geral.

And Maxwell Taylor, you know, he's also pretty good.

But who your top one, two and your wild card?

Well, what are we going to do about Eisenhower?

I think, unfortunately, we have to put him aside.

Because he's too elevated.

Because he's too elevated.

This is battlefield commanders, really, isn't it?

We want the Akrich Tension Shakordite gym the rat tat tat of the bar

so i think i'm gonna go

this is really difficult isn't it i like troy middleton and i like jim gavin and then my wild card would be uh oh fuck um my wild card would be

collins there you go okay well obviously i'm gonna go for clark yeah i'm gonna go for clark and i'm going to go for

i think collins okay and my wild card, my wild card is also Gavin.

I mean, J-Matt's going to be furious because it kind of should be Ridgway, really.

Yeah, exactly.

No, okay, I'm going to change it.

I'm going to go.

I'm going to go.

No, I'm not.

I'm going to stick with that.

I'm going to go Clark, Collins, Gavin.

You see, these are the agonies.

What you're hearing here is the sheer weight of responsibilities.

We settle this argument once and for all.

Isn't that right, Jim?

Yeah, it is.

The only reason I've taken away from Ridgway is because he loses that influence in the second half of, you know, 1944 into 1945.

You know, he's less of a role, I would say okay well there we go ladies gem that's best of the west us our two our two editions go to the patreon vote get into it do that thing and we will be returning bits of germans in our next episode and of course the best way to come to a conclusion of this argument is to come to we have ways fest 12th 14th september where you can see finally this put to bed so no one need ever talk about it ever again isn't that right gym Exactly.

No one needs to ever argue about it ever more.

We can just miss it.

It's a public service.

It's a public service we're performing here.

We're just trying to help.

But I've got to say, I think the American, the decisions on the Americans is much harder because I think it's a much tighter pack.

Exactly.

We'll see you all soon.

Thanks for listening.

Cheerio.

Cheerio.

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