The Harmful Impact of Saying "We Do It for the Kids"

Speaker 1 Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of UCAN.

Speaker 1 I'm your host Sarah Jolly Jarvis and today Nova Coban is joining me and we're going to be talking around why you shouldn't make your business or make our businesses about our children, the impact that can have and how we can reframe it.

Speaker 1 So first of all I'm going to say what lovely welcome to Nova and thank you for coming on and

Speaker 1 tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 2 Hi Sarah, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 So I'm Nova. I am a psychologist, a psychotherapist and a coach.

Speaker 2 I'm also a business strategist and I sort of mix all of those parts together to help people when they are struggling to understand who they are, what they want and where they're going to go next.

Speaker 1 Nice. And so we actually got talking about this, didn't we?

Speaker 1 This is a topic that both of us were sort of chatting in the DMs about on Facebook over, you know, that positioning, that labelling of being like, I'm doing this for my children and the impact that that can have and the amount of pressure that can create.

Speaker 1 Tell us your thoughts on it.

Speaker 2 So I have an issue with the idea that we are talking to our children about what it is that we do and about what it is, and the reason behind why we do what we do.

Speaker 2 And I think that sometimes, depending on how we frame that, that can actually have quite a legacy in terms of how they view themselves and their contribution to your stress, to what's going on in your life.

Speaker 2 So, to explain that more, we sometimes have points at which we will say, well, I am creating this business because I want to be able to spend more time with you.

Speaker 2 I want your life to be better than my life was. I want us to be able to go traveling.
I want, this is my dream life, but I'm doing it for.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So we've kind of got a bit of a contradiction in there already.

Speaker 2 And I just feel like sometimes that's quite a lot of pressure on children when we frame it as this is something that I'm doing for you, because that's not going to be the full story.

Speaker 2 And we know, I'm sure you know, I'm sure everyone listening knows, that there are times when you've said something meaning one thing, and your child has interpreted it completely differently.

Speaker 2 Like that's not what you meant at all, but they've taken that on board and it's really kind of changed the way that they view things.

Speaker 2 And they haven't brought it up and you haven't been able to discuss it, and they've just sat with that for God knows how long.

Speaker 2 And one of those things can be this idea of, well, if you're doing this for me and then you are stressed and upset, then maybe that's my fault. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think that's really easy with children, isn't it?

Speaker 1 I remember a conversation with my daughter and it was meant to be in a positive way. And I said to her, oh, mummy always wanted two boys and then a girl is the youngest.

Speaker 1 And I was like, but I'm really pleased you were the eldest because

Speaker 1 you're actually like my extra helper. And it's like me and her and the boys.

Speaker 1 But she, I remember her taking that on board. And then a few weeks later, she said to me, oh, but mummy, you didn't want it this way around.
You didn't want me first.

Speaker 1 And you're sad that

Speaker 1 I was first. And I was like, no, I'm not.
I'm really grateful. It was mummy thought that was a good idea.
But, you know, the universe had different ideas. And actually, it was very right.

Speaker 1 But they do, don't they? They take that information away and then it can come out. And you're like, where did that come from?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I had this really like

Speaker 2 experience when I was little that I overheard my mum mum and my dad talking in the car. I was sat in the back seat, and there was this song that came on the radio.

Speaker 2 It was by Alison Moyer, and I think that she was doing it for charity or it was at a charity event.

Speaker 2 Anyway, my dad said something to do with charity that sounded like he was not into charity, like charity was like a bad thing. I can't remember what the context was, but it sounded bad.

Speaker 2 So I was kind of sneering at the idea of charity from then on because I'd completely misunderstood.

Speaker 2 And I remember saying to them at one point, like, oh yeah, it's charity.

Speaker 1 And they were like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 2 And I was like, well, you know, you don't really like charity, do you? And they were like, I'm sorry, what?

Speaker 2 And I'd completely misunderstood.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 that happens all the time. All the time.

Speaker 1 And I think I've noticed it's more with my daughter. I think girls can be a bit more switched on and they're wanting to kind of get involved more and be that more mature.

Speaker 1 Whereas stuff just sort of, it passes by the boys without notice. Whereas she's the, you know, she's the one who's always listening into the conversations and things like that.

Speaker 1 And she's the one who's much more likely to pick up the, those sort of like and take it the wrong way, but all those kind of little hints at stuff. And she would piece it together.

Speaker 1 She does piece it together very well, like a little detective. And you'll be talking cryptic.

Speaker 1 And before you know it, she's she's pieced this all together and she's actually pretty much on the right lines. And you're like, how did you manage that?

Speaker 1 And I think that's the thing is, is, you know, at the end of the day, we are role models.

Speaker 1 And that was one of my things with having my own business, which was, you know, something that I've never said to her, but I set up my business so I could have the flexibility to be around my family.

Speaker 1 And she was the catalyst for that as the eldest.

Speaker 1 And also looking at it from a, you know, a role model point of view, that I remember a relative saying to me, so you are going to give up work, aren't you? Now you're going to be having kids.

Speaker 1 And I was like, are you for real? Because I've, you know, I've worked towards this. I've been to university.
I've invested so much in myself.

Speaker 1 You think that I'm just going to stop and, you know, just be a parent. But, you know, to be that stay-at-home parent was not, is not where my strengths are.
Um, it was, I found that quite difficult.

Speaker 1 It wasn't mentally stimulating for me, particularly at the baby phase. They don't do a lot, do they? And so, you know, you have to keep, you have to be aware about sustaining life, but it does not.

Speaker 1 Like, I remember Martin used to come home from work and he'd be like, telling me stuff, and he'd be like, Oh, you don't really want to hear this, do you?

Speaker 1 And I'd be like, Please, please keep telling me this stuff because it's actually exercising my brain.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, then getting into that, I could have taken a job which gave me flexibility, which didn't challenge me the way that this does, or doesn't progress me.

Speaker 1 But that was my choice. And that's the thing is, is even wanting to be a role model for her, she didn't say to me, Hey, I need a role model and you need to step up, love.

Speaker 1 It's a decision that we've taken on to provide that for them.

Speaker 2 Yes. And that's the whole point, right? It's just that honesty around it.
So that you're not hiding the idea that I want to do that. I want to work.
This excites me.

Speaker 2 And then I'm a better person because I'm being stimulated, I'm growing.

Speaker 2 And all of those things are important to me rather than the flip way of doing that, which is like, yeah, you sort of buy into that guilt, that mum guilt thing that we all get.

Speaker 2 And you sort of try and kind of bypass it by going, yes, that's because, you know, I want to be a good mum.

Speaker 2 It's like, yes, you want to be a good mum, but you want to be a good mum by ensuring that you feel good. And that's okay.

Speaker 1 But we don't own that part of it. No, and that's our version.
That's the thing.

Speaker 1 All of this is about our version of being a good parent. And it's like you want to be playing out your story and then you want to allow your children to play play out their own stories.

Speaker 1 Whereas I speak to people quite regularly who are like, well, you know, I kind of did what I felt was expected of me.

Speaker 1 And I think that then is, you know, they're thinking, oh, well, my parents will be disappointed if.

Speaker 1 And I've had people who've gone into professions because that's what their parents expected them to do and because that's what they felt would be good for them.

Speaker 1 But then you end up out of alignment because

Speaker 1 you're not actually living to your own values to what you want to be doing.

Speaker 2 Yes. And that leads to a whole load of problems and it leads to a lot of resentment as well, because then you're resenting the people who said, This is the path you should go down.

Speaker 2 And nine times out of ten, not all the time, but nine times out of ten, if you were to turn around to your parents and say, I'm deeply unhappy, this is not what I want to do, they'd be like, Perfect.

Speaker 2 Go and go and do what it is that you want to do. I don't want you to be unhappy.

Speaker 1 And I think that's the thing is, is whenever you speak to people, they're always like, I just want them to be happy. You know, that is people's measure is I want them to be happy.

Speaker 1 And it's like, so it's understanding, you can't make them happy. You know, they have to find that happiness for themselves.
And you're allowing them and supporting them to do that, isn't it?

Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah.
And it's too easy, I think, to kind of bypass your own happiness because you've placed other people's needs before your own. Like that's the kind of classic thing that we do, isn't it?

Speaker 2 It's like we agree that our needs are not not important, and we agree that we will live our life according to someone else's plan.

Speaker 2 Even though, if you actually spoke to them and asked them, they wouldn't want that, that's not what they would want.

Speaker 2 But it serves us in some way because it allows us to have someone to blame, if you like, when things don't go down. Like, well, I never wanted to do this anyway.

Speaker 2 Like, you were the one who thought that this would be good for me. I never thought that.

Speaker 2 And we're so bad at feeling like it's okay to actually take responsibility for our own choices because we've been led by other people's choices our whole lives.

Speaker 2 Like when we're at school, you do as you're told. When you're going to the workplace, you stick to the rules.
Like we are governed by laws.

Speaker 2 We are set up to please other people in everything that we do.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 That makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1 And from the flip side, you know, when I was thinking around this subject, you've got the fact that we say we're doing stuff because of our children, but then actually you've also got the flip side of that where we say, oh, Oh, I can't do that.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm restricted. I am stuck where I am because I have children.
Oh, if I didn't have children, my life would look like this.

Speaker 1 And I think you know, we all know that we are naturally programmed to keep ourselves safe, even if we're not happy. It's like the current situation that I'm in is nice and safe.

Speaker 1 I haven't died in this situation, so we'll just carry on with it. Whereas, in reality,

Speaker 1 you know, you have those aspirations. It's not, is it really? And I think this is the key thing with this, is it's digging deep.

Speaker 1 However, you look at it, it's actually pulling yourself up on it, isn't it? And saying, wait a minute, is this the truth? Is this, is this true, or is this what I'm telling myself?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And I think there's so many layers to that that often it's really hard to get to the root of what you really feel because having children

Speaker 2 is automatically an additional thing that you need to take into account and your life does change and need to change as a result of that.

Speaker 2 But that's something that hopefully you wanted. And so that also is a choice that you take into account.

Speaker 2 So rather than, I suppose I look at it that rather than when I'm saying, oh, I can't do that because of the children, that it's an excuse. It's like, I choose to not do this

Speaker 2 so that I can be with them and around them. And I'm happy with that.
choice rather than like, oh, you know, I really want to do that, but you know, I've got children now, so that can't happen.

Speaker 2 I'm like, I want that to happen, I want to be with them for that time, yeah.

Speaker 1 And also, you have got the fact that you know, you're saying, Oh, I can't do that, but it's like, who's saying you can't do that?

Speaker 1 Whereas, you know, actually, when you start to look at it, some people do go away, you know, they are away.

Speaker 2 I think it's a bit of a minefield because I think that there are definitely points at which, for example, I've made decisions about something that I'm not going to do because I'm like, that's not fair to take that time away from them.

Speaker 2 That's going to be hard on them rather than it's going to be hard on me. Like I would probably have a lovely time.
It would be really enjoyable.

Speaker 2 I'd have a leisurely breakfast. It would be great.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 I know that that involves pressure on other people who would be covering that time for me, my husband, i.e.,

Speaker 2 which restricts him and what he wants to do. So that kind of all needs to be evened out for me.
That's, you know, I like it to be kind of evened out.

Speaker 2 But I think there's definitely points at which I have used it as an excuse as well. So I've been thinking to myself, no,

Speaker 2 I can't go and up-level my client base at the moment because that would involve kind of traveling to London more. And, you know, that's not fair.
And when I've looked at it, those things aren't true.

Speaker 2 That's just me being being scared and using it as an excuse. So that definitely comes into play.
And I think you've got to be really self-aware to kind of dig through and discover:

Speaker 2 is this about them or is it about you?

Speaker 1 And how do you do that?

Speaker 1 Is that a thing that you've built into the way you self-reflect and things like that? Or do you have people who, you know, you've got friends who really call it out for what it is?

Speaker 1 How do you manage that?

Speaker 2 For me,

Speaker 2 it's sort of just become a a natural habit i suppose um so i'll just if i have an inkling the first thing i guess is that i have an inkling that it's not entirely true like i there will be something that doesn't feel quite aligned or quite right and they'll i'll just feel a bit off about whatever i've just said or whatever i've just thought or decided and if that's my little signal that I need to dig a little bit deeper and it might be that I'm right and there's just some other stuff in the way and it's still okay for the decision that I've made.

Speaker 2 But more often than not, if I'm feeling a little bit like, well, it doesn't feel quite true, then I'll just do a kind of series of questions with myself.

Speaker 2 So it'll be like, is that, is that actually true?

Speaker 2 And when is that going to be true? And when is that not going to be true? So I'll look at, okay, so that is true.

Speaker 2 if these things are not in place. So that's true that I don't want to go away for the weekend if it means that my

Speaker 2 husband can't do it and then I have to get someone in to look after her. That's that's not okay.

Speaker 2 But it is okay if all of these things are met and then it feels better to do it because I've looked at what it is that's actually disturbing me or feeling uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 And then maybe I can address it or maybe I can't, but that will help me kind of decide whether it's me, the circumstances, or I actually agree with the decision that I've already made.

Speaker 1 I really like the question on when is that not going to be true? Because I think that is sometimes, okay, I'll allow this for now. That's, you know, that's the kind of thought process at the moment.

Speaker 1 But is this, you know, if this isn't ever going to change, then, you know, what's going on and how important is this? I think it puts it, it gives it a perspective, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 Because I think sometimes, you know, you have different, you have so many different stages with children, but there are so many different stages.

Speaker 1 And there are stages at which, you know, they want to be around you in the summer holiday stages where they're going to be like, they'd rather do anything but be around you.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, it's understanding,

Speaker 1 I'm making the most of now. And, you know, I've done that.
I've done that with speaking things and things like that, where, like, I've moved to Devon.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm going to have to travel for quite some time to get anywhere into civilization. I mean, it's an hour to the Maliris motorway.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, you're then very much like, well, I'm kind of saying that I'm not going to do that many in-person things.

Speaker 1 And it's like, but that's okay. I'm all right with that because actually there is structure in place.

Speaker 1 You know, you can do things like this. We don't have to necessarily meet face to face.
And it's like, actually, when the time comes, I can be away more.

Speaker 1 And so then, you know, I can then refocus on that. But at the moment, you know, that that's on pause, apart from, you know, if it was something really significant.

Speaker 1 And I think that's where it makes sense. Where it'd be very easy to be like, oh, that's, you know, that's just never going to happen.
I can't possibly ever leave them.

Speaker 1 When actually, in reality, there's going to come a time when they're possibly going to welcome the house being a bit quieter and mum not being around.

Speaker 1 Um, yes, but it's you know, it's working out where you're at with that, yeah.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. And I think, you know, there are definitely times when it is entirely true that things are much more difficult.

Speaker 2 You know, when I, I, so I'm not a single mum now, but with my son, I was a single mum for a long time, and there were actual real restrictions on that.

Speaker 2 Like, I didn't have the child available, I didn't have the scope to go away for a weekend or anything like that.

Speaker 2 So, there are definitely points at which those things that other people might say, oh, that's just an excuse. It's not, that is the reality people are living with.

Speaker 2 So, I think that it's not to when this conversation is obviously not to kind of dismiss the fact that there are restrictions that people experience and they need to be navigated, and sometimes they can't be navigated.

Speaker 2 But, like you said, I think there are times at which our children will need us less. You know, I've got a nearly 20-year-old and a five-year-old.
So I've kind of done,

Speaker 1 you know, always.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and then doing it again. So, and actually this time around,

Speaker 2 my priority is being able to spend as much time with her as possible because I just, I know it's my last chance.

Speaker 2 And I know I'm really lucky to have done it again after thinking that I wouldn't have another child.

Speaker 2 So I'm really enjoying it and that is my priority. Whereas with Noah, it was a little bit different because

Speaker 2 I loved being around him and he was always a priority in terms of spending time with him. But equally, I was a single mum.
I had to do other things to put the money in.

Speaker 2 And sometimes that wouldn't be nicely fitted into nine to five or nine to three.

Speaker 2 So those things had to be juggled.

Speaker 2 So yeah, a lot of it is kind of age of children, circumstances, support systems that you've got in place, all of those things, as well as your own mindset.

Speaker 1 And I think the key thing is, is when you think around, like, yeah, okay,

Speaker 1 what is driving this? Is it my mindset? Is it actually my priorities?

Speaker 1 Because I've seen a lot recently of people calling people out on social media with, you know, actually your business isn't your priority.

Speaker 1 And, you know, that's why I saw one yesterday where you say you're too busy, but actually, you're just not prioritizing it. Like, that was a bad thing.
And I'm like, actually,

Speaker 1 I don't see whether people are prioritizing it or whether people aren't prioritizing it. That is equally okay.

Speaker 1 I think the key thing is, is to know and to understand, actually,

Speaker 1 this isn't my priority right now. And there's nothing wrong with it.
You know, you can't, yes, you can earn. I put out a post a few weeks ago.
Me and Isaac were baking.

Speaker 1 We did quite a lot of baking on a Friday. And, you know, I love it.
And Friday is my non-negotiable day off. And, you know, I could work.

Speaker 1 People have said to me, well, if you worked, you know, another day, then you could serve more clients. You could do more outreach.
You could make more money. And it said, but I'm choosing.

Speaker 1 And I know that I am consciously choosing to exchange that day for spending time with him. And even if somebody said to me, you know what, you could make a few million on that day.

Speaker 1 At this moment in my life, I really don't care. because I'm never going to get that time back.

Speaker 1 And that's the thing is, is, you know, I, unlike you, when you did that and then you had a nice break, and, you know, I've stacked my children up. They're like a little production line of children.

Speaker 1 And so that is the only time, other than when we have, we do designated mummy and daddy days. But other than that time, that's the only time I get to spend with him just one-on-one.

Speaker 1 And he's always had somebody else around because he's the youngest of three. And so being able to spend that time,

Speaker 1 it means so much to me. That's why I had them.

Speaker 1 But I know the choice I'm making. And I never say to him, by the way, you know, mummy could be making, you know, a few grand right now.
These cookies better be good.

Speaker 1 Because that's not the point.

Speaker 1 But it's that conscious decision. I've made that decision and that's okay.

Speaker 1 And I think

Speaker 1 I would love to see people calling each other out less. I would really like to see people supporting each other's differences and decisions.

Speaker 1 But that's quite sad that actually we're not seeing that at the moment.

Speaker 2 I couldn't agree more. I think I find it really

Speaker 2 triggering, I guess, to see posts that are celebrating business over and above family to an extent where, as you said, they're almost demonizing people who are not dedicating enough time and energy and focus on their business and are instead choosing to have more of a balance with their family life and the other things that they enjoy and sort of

Speaker 2 doing this kind of like you're not driven enough, you're not focused enough, you're not committed enough.

Speaker 2 It's like, committed to what, though, because what I'm committed to is having a good balance in my life, yeah, and that's the thing that I want to commit to because that is everything to me.

Speaker 2 Like, if I'm off balance, then everything goes out the window, so that has to be a priority. And maybe for some other people, the priority is building a business empire, and that's fine.

Speaker 2 But don't pretend that building the business empire is not having an effect on other areas of your life, or that other areas of your life are not being sacrificed in order to win that or to do that.

Speaker 2 Like you are not making a balanced decision with that. And that's fine.
That is absolutely fine.

Speaker 2 But then what I object to is the idea that you're saying that and then in the same breath, almost making everyone else feel like they're just a bit crap for not being as

Speaker 2 you're dedicated to.

Speaker 1 I totally agree.

Speaker 1 And also what has upset me, like even the post I saw yesterday, which was, you know, like the reason why it's just because you're not, you're not focused enough, you know, you're not prioritizing, is it was women calling women out.

Speaker 1 And I've seen that quite often now is I'm doing this, you know, you're kind of letting the side down, not doing it too.

Speaker 1 And it was interesting because I had Mandy Reese on a couple of episodes ago on episode five, and she was saying around female archetypes and why women, we need to club together and we should support each other.

Speaker 1 And And this podcast is designed for women to support women and to inspire women, and yet we can be our own

Speaker 1 biggest critics. And I think that's where it does seem really disappointing.

Speaker 1 And that's where I do feel very passionate and triggered that you know, this is happening and that we can't appreciate that balance, which is always going on.

Speaker 1 And you know, sometimes we can get it right, sometimes we can get it wrong. And it's like, but but why

Speaker 1 we need to be criticizing each other's balance and our own actions? Like, we should be the ones who are in a position where we can really empathize with

Speaker 1 the constant juggling of family demands with business demands and also business aspirations with family aspirations. You know, it is, it's, it's a constant juggle, and people can get it wrong,

Speaker 1 but surely we can just be nice about it.

Speaker 1 And it's actually, if that super talented person chooses for a period of time to not prioritise prioritize their talents within their business role and focus on their talents as a parent or focus on improving their talents as a parent,

Speaker 1 you know, are we the ones to pass judgment on that? And is it needed? Like, you know, we've all got freedom to speak, but do we have to? Like, could we just leave them to it?

Speaker 2 I know. And I think that there's always sort of like this piling in of

Speaker 2 I agree with your opinion because that alleviates my own guilt.

Speaker 2 So if somebody says something that celebrates something that you've been feeling a little bit uncomfortable with, then you'd be like, oh, thank goodness, somebody who's kind of celebrating this thing that I'm feeling a little bit

Speaker 2 brilliant. Now I can align myself with that view and be like, well, they are doing it and they're not spending all their time worrying about balance.
So I don't need to either.

Speaker 2 And instead of turning inwards and deciding for ourselves what balance looks like, what we want, all of those kinds of things, what our family life looks like for us, we're kind of jumping on the thing that makes us feel the best about ourselves and going, Thank God, thank God somebody said it.

Speaker 2 I can now align myself with that viewpoint. And again, that's natural and normal.
You know, I think we're doing that here, even.

Speaker 2 We're kind of expressing a viewpoint that we share and we're aligning with it.

Speaker 2 But I feel like we are not doing that to alleviate any guilt.

Speaker 2 We are are doing that to kind of celebrate that we have decided that, consciously decided that, rather than gone out looking for an excuse to carry on doing what we're doing and feeling better about it.

Speaker 1 And that's the thing is, is like guilt is a message. Emotions are messages, aren't they? And it's like that, that is a message that something doesn't feel right.
You possibly feel out of alignment.

Speaker 1 And so that is a really good message to, as you say, look inwards. And I think it gets increasingly hard.
And gosh, we could go on and it's a whole new subject in itself. But, you know,

Speaker 1 the external validation and information we now get and the amount of noise around us, it can make it very, very difficult to listen and to listen with conviction to that inner voice because there is constant, it's a constant barrage of information and opinions and people's perspectives.

Speaker 1 And it's very easy for that inner voice to get lost. Yeah.

Speaker 2 100%. I cannot count the number of times that I've just felt overwhelmed with the social media stuff that is kind of bombarded into my brain every, you know, every time I'm on there.

Speaker 2 And how influential that can be on my mood, on my thoughts, on the way that I'm approaching my life. And I need, and I know that that's having an effect.

Speaker 2 I think we all know that it's having an effect. But what we struggle with is then discerning our own thoughts from those that we've kind of pulled in and absorbed from other people.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 1 definitely. I think, especially when, you know, we are navigating a very different style of life to what our parents were.
And so you don't have that reference point. And so

Speaker 1 you are regularly searching for.

Speaker 1 I remember speaking to one of my friends who said, I don't even know how to go about balancing my career with my family because my mum just gave up work and she stayed at home.

Speaker 1 And she was like, I know I don't want to do that, but I don't know what.

Speaker 1 anything else looks like and I think that's where again female role models having those points of reference that you feel aligned with are so so important.

Speaker 1 And to feel safe in our own decisions, yeah.

Speaker 2 And also, I think if you're in a marriage or a partnership, it has to be right for both of you as well.

Speaker 2 Because whatever decision one of you is making, if you've got children, that is having an effect on the other person as well. So, it's not the case, in my view, that you can just go, right?

Speaker 2 Well, this is how I want my life to look. So, you're over here doing this role now.

Speaker 1 because I've just allocated it for you,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's the thing, it's a partnership, isn't it?

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 and that is going to be a constant struggle, and that's going to change as well.

Speaker 2 You know, my husband and I we have very different times of the year when we're busy, which is good because then we're not both really busy at the same time. But

Speaker 2 and so that's worked out quite well.

Speaker 2 But there are definitely times where you know we'll be arguing because both of us have things that we need to get done and want to do, And both of us feel that difficulty around, okay, so how are we going to navigate all of that?

Speaker 2 And it really takes a lot of energy to sort of step back sometimes and be like, this is not getting us anywhere. Like we just need to kind of

Speaker 1 be grown up.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. And that's hard when you're kind of...

Speaker 2 when you're under pressure and then you're being interrupted by a little person or you're you know you're trying to not you're trying to have a stern conversation rather than an argument

Speaker 2 life is just happening around you you know all of those things are happening at the same time and it's and it's hard but it has to be like right for everybody who's in your family unit it can't just be about this is my dream and off i go following it and you guys can come along if you want

Speaker 1 yeah that is true yeah that you know you are a family unit it isn't it is it isn't you and your sidekicks is it um and so yeah you know and that's the thing is is you know you do need to and every family is so so different It's figuring out what works for you.

Speaker 1 And that's the key thing. And feeling safe to do you

Speaker 1 without having to take on board those kind of the negative side that some people choose to do. But Nova, it's been so, so lovely to speak to you.

Speaker 1 Where can people find out more about you? Where do you mostly hang out?

Speaker 2 I mostly hang out on Facebook. I try and dabble in the others, but I really don't very often.

Speaker 2 Or my website,

Speaker 2 just novacobbin.com.

Speaker 1 Brilliant. Well, that's been lovely to speak to you.
Thank you very much for your time. So that's been great, guys, for speaking over, and I look forward to speaking to you all again next week.

Speaker 1 Bye for now.