Empress Matilda: civil war in medieval England

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

A happy place comes in many colors.

Whatever your color, bring happiness home with CertaPro Painters.

Get started today at Certapro.com.

Each Certipro Painters business is independently owned and operated.

Contractor license and registration information is available at Certapro.com.

Before Prodigy, getting my students into math was tough.

I even tried rapping.

Yo, my name's Long Division, and I'm here to say showing your work is cool every day.

What?

Yeah, not my proudest moment.

But now with Prodigy's game-based learning, kids can't get enough math.

Seriously, with the personalized instruction, they're more engaged and their math scores are way up and it's free for teachers.

Talk about a mic drop.

Learn more at prodigy.com.

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Hello, Greg here.

Just a reminder before we get going that episodes of Your Dead to Me are released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts.

But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else.

First on BBC Sounds.

Hello and welcome to Your Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously.

My name is Greg Jenner.

I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster.

And today we are moseying back to medieval England, throwing fists in the fiercest of family feuds as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the Anarchy.

And joining our royal court are two very special guests in History Corner.

She's a historian of monarchy and sexuality, specialising in medieval history.

She's the author of Berengaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of Le Mans.

And you'll remember her from our episode on Eleanor of Aquitaine.

It's Dr.

Gabrielle's story.

Welcome back, Gabby.

It's great, thanks for having me back.

And in Comedy Corner, she's a multi-talented comedian, actor, writer.

You'll know her from the TV panel show.

She's an author.

Her new children's book, Where Did She Go, is a lovely analysis of grief for kids.

It's beautiful.

Plus, she has a career as a Jane Austen improv whiz in the hilarious, ostentatious improv show.

She's a busy woman, and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of Your Dead to Me, including Georgian Courtship and the Arts and Crafts Movement.

It's the wonderful Carrie Add Lloyd.

Welcome back, Carrie Ad.

Ahoy there, Sira.

As they said, in medieval times, yes.

Good morrow upon thee.

Yes.

Gabby's nodding, like, yeah, yeah, that's

absolutely.

That was your classic English greeting.

Well, we do need it in Anglo-French for this episode.

A bonjour sire,

summer.

C'est le moraux

bon.

Wow, a linguistics classes are great.

She said I do a lot of things.

Speaking French is one of them.

Now, Carrie, together we have done Agrippina the Younger of Rome.

Yep.

A sort of Empress.

We've done plenty of sort of Regency in Victoriana.

We've not done medieval together.

We have not gone back to medieval times.

And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think...

Well, do you know what?

As ever with me, I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda, which could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Aykroyd's London.

And I only remember two things from Peter Aykroyd's London.

And I feel like she was a really popular queen.

That's what I thought about Matilda.

And that when she came out of Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her.

And that's the area of St Giles was a slum.

I'm so sorry, Peter Aykroyd.

It's a very large total.

It's a very big book, very heavy.

I should remember more.

Popular queen.

Interesting.

We will address that later, I think.

Okay, that's my question.

That is not what I would.

Oh, no.

Well, take it out with Pete Dykroy, not me.

Okay.

Well, look, you know, it sounds like you're not totally clear on the Empress Matilda sort of backstory.

Okay, so that's kind of helpful for us because it means we can give you a fresh introduction.

I don't know none, as they said in the 12th century.

In French, of course.

Je sui know nothing.

Je ses par.

Je ne s'est parsi no information.

Fabulous.

So, what do you know?

I suspect.

But you may have read Ken Follett's famous mega-massive medieval novel, The Pillars of the Earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well.

And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played Age of Empires 2 expansion pack, ooh, in which you can battle against Empress Matilda.

But who was the real life Matilda?

How did a family squabble turn into a full-blown civil war?

And when can a hangover save your life?

Let's find out.

Right, Dr.

Gabby, when was Matilda born?

You know, where are we in history?

And are we talking royal baby?

Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions.

Yep, yep.

So we're going to have some cross-channel Argy Bargie going on.

But Matilda's born around February 1102.

She is the daughter of Henry I, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conqueror.

Also known by another name that's not radiophore friendly.

So we'll keep it at that for the moment.

And her mother was Matilda of Scotland.

So, and Matilda of Scotland is descendant of Alfred the Great.

So this gives some legitimacy.

She's like, she's royalty.

She is.

This is how you invented.

Yeah, yeah.

So, granddad William the Conqueror.

Yeah.

Dad is king.

King Henry.

Henry the First.

Henry the Constitution.

Not even like Henry V, guys.

This is Henry the First.

The first one.

They've just invented Henry the First.

They've just got into that

DVD series.

Yeah, exactly.

She's in the OG series.

She's the OG series, but they're still frigging it out.

And then her other granddad is Alfred the Great.

No, no,

go way back.

Descended from Alfred.

Wow.

Her father was was the youngest son of William the Conqueror.

Yeah, what happened to the others?

That's a good question.

Do you want to have a little guess for us?

What happened to the older brother?

They died hideously poisoned.

Interesting.

You think suspicious death?

Well, probably at this time, isn't it?

The youngest son ends up there.

I'm guessing suspicious.

So Henry's older brother, William II, also known as William Rufus, William Redhead, does die in a suspicious hunting accident in the New Forest in 1100.

So he is shot supposedly by accident by one of his servants but

oh I'm so sorry I thought you were a deer

because you have the red hair it's very confusing.

Yeah absolutely but rather conveniently for Henry who happens to be nearby he then just races off to Winchester supposedly to secure all the money because the treasury's at Winchester.

But the fact he runs off so quickly does, you know, raise some suspicions as to whether he's going to be.

Are you going Henry?

I've just got to wash my hands.

I mean, go to Winchester.

There's all these arrows falling up your backside.

Don't worry, won't I?

Yeah, so he does speed himself along and get crowned before William's even cold.

Henri, Henri, Henry one.

Henry one.

So, so his older brother has taken an arrow to the back in suspicious circumstances.

Yes, and their other brother, Richard, did also die in a hunting accident.

So there is a little hunting very dangerous there.

Yeah, it's very dangerous.

You guys, like, you shouldn't be doing that.

That's not for you.

So, Gabby, Matilda is born a royal.

When we had our little sort of pre-chat, you said there's no such thing as a princess in this era, which I found quite interesting.

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

But prince existed.

Kind of the next century or so along.

So I won't go too much into Welsh history because that's kind of where we get principality and printed.

Please always go into Welsh.

Never hold back because we have been forgotten about for hundreds of years.

So

our instinct to call her a princess is sort of sort of right, but it's not what they'd call her a princess.

They would just say she was the king's daughter.

Daughter,

and refer to her as a lady and so forth.

So lady of the court, basically.

So what's her childhood like?

What, yeah, education and

if she had a diary, it wouldn't be the princess diaries.

No, unfortunately, the lady of the court's diaries, which has not the same ring about it.

Yeah, I don't think Anne Hathway's going to line up to play her at the moment.

Unfortunately, we have to think of someone else, but we don't know loads, unfortunately, about her upbringing.

So royal girls are often raised in nunneries and sometimes they're at court with their mothers.

If they're at court with their mothers, then they're travelling round.

You know, we know that she goes to Exeter.

She's in Norwich, Windsor, Canterbury.

So she does move round of the court quite a bit.

Now, her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured.

She's very pious.

So she wants to pass that on to her daughter.

But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power.

So we can see her with a good amount of political authority.

Again, something Junior Matilda's going to pick up on.

And she also gets involved in mediating between disputes between the king and his archbishops.

So Archbishop of Canterbury again popping up.

As soon as I thought about the Archbishop of Canterbury, I was thinking of Matilda's son Henry II and Thomas Beckett, who also get into disputes.

Spoiler exactly.

So, yeah.

And when we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter and it's sort of sunny climes, you know, sweltering Exeter, the gorgeous tropics of southwest England.

But she went considerably further at a young age.

Do you want to guess where, Carriead?

France.

Further than France.

Oh, maiui.

Germany?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

All the way to Germany.

All the way to Germany.

So she went to the school exchange for the Germany because the French was full.

It wasn't a school exchange programme, Carriad.

It was to meet a man to marry.

Yeah.

It was marriage exchange.

Yeah.

You know what, Greg?

They look down on that on schools these days.

They don't.

They more encourage you to see the site, eat some food, not pick up a future husband.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, often on the show, I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage clacks.

It's rare I think.

I wonder what that was.

I'm glad you're here.

Yes, no, it's very big.

How old are we talking here, Gabby?

Oh, yeah, how old?

Eight.

Oh, yeah.

Now, look, I've heard some low numbers before on this program, but that is low.

Medievals,

what is wrong with you?

Officially engaged at the age of eight.

I will say that.

That's right.

that's fine then.

Yeah, no.

I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realise that that's quite young to be.

But they would like to say, like, this is going to happen.

We're just making sure everyone we've signed the contracts.

Yeah.

You can see what you're buying.

But they're not going to actually get married for a while.

Yes.

I mean, I'm making it sound like it's reasonable.

Yeah, but she does go out there at eight, right?

Yes, yes.

To Germany.

So her father is arranged with her.

Her father is Henry.

Yeah.

And she's betrothed to who?

Henry.

Oh, another one.

I Can't call him Heinrich or something.

Like, he's also Henry V.

Henrik, yeah.

Yeah.

Heinrich V.

Yep, Heinrich.

And he is what?

And he is King of the Romans.

So Germany at this time, also, you go by the title of King of the Romans.

So it can be King of Germany, King of the Romans, because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well, which is what happens to Henry.

And Matilda is also crowned, even before she's married.

She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Mainz on the 25th of July 1110.

They give her a party.

Yeah, so she's, yeah, she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married.

So that's not a bad deal for an eight-year-old.

Well, it is.

I mean, it is.

It's a terrible deal, but they do give her a party.

And look, everyone wants to call in the caterpillar cake.

Other cakes are available.

But it's still not ideal if she's going to have to marry Das Henry Fumpf.

He is 16 years older than her.

16?

I thought you was he's 16.

No, he's 16 years older than her.

So he's what, 24?

24.

Yeah.

She's eight.

So eight years old, already the queen of the country.

So she started young on the old power front.

And obviously she's gonna she's gonna have to learn German, right?

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Latin is usually the language used by the courts as well.

So that will put her in good stead.

I mean, yes, she does become queen very young, but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany.

She's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future.

Okay, okay.

So, yeah, problematic.

She's on an internship.

Yes, very problematic in terms of modernise, but for the time period, she's doing exactly what she was meant to be doing.

And, you know, we do see her being very active as we get on to.

And actually, it's quite good because it shows that she does have power.

She's not just being pushed to one side.

Right, yeah.

They trust her, basically, too.

They're not being like, we can just use this one as a puppet.

They're like, oh no, this one should be ruling.

Well, I mean, the interesting sort sort of next moment, Henry V leaves for Italy because he wants to be crowned the Holy Roman Emperor.

So King of the Germans is like decent.

It's good.

Holy Roman Emperor is the one up.

He

goes off to Italy.

He said to the Pope, I'd like to be Holy Roman Emperor.

Pope says no.

What do you think he does?

Kills a Pope.

He's not quite that bad.

I'm thinking David Francis slices his head off.

He kidnaps the Pope.

He kidnaps the Pope.

Yeah.

What happens here, Gabby?

Where does the...

The Pope is held hostage in Rome.

He's not transported.

Okay, yeah.

You don't want to be carrying that around with you today.

That is a nightmare.

Yeah, I mean, the assurance castle is...

He's going to want his own incense.

He's going to let his robes dry clean on the way.

They just kind of capture him in Rome.

Yeah, and this is Henry's first Italian expedition, so there's Exposition 2, which we'll get on to in a minute.

Okay, this is awkward.

They're not going to want him back after this.

No, but he is crowned Holy Roman Emperor.

But obviously, this is problematic because the Pope's done it under force.

You know, it's not quite a legitimate coronation as you've kind of got the knife in the back being like, I want to be Holy Roman Emperor.

And what's, do we know the name of the Pope?

Because they normally have quite good names.

What is this?

Pascal II.

Great, absolutely.

That's quite a nice Pope.

Yeah.

We haven't had a Pascal in a while, have we?

Well, you need to cover Pascal I, quite clearly.

Pascal II's popped up.

So Henry and Matilda then get married.

So this is all taking place in 1111.

Henry and Matilda are married in 1114, just before she turns 12.

That's great.

Oh, wow!

They can't even wait till she's 12.

Yeah, so the problematic marriage clacton can be continued.

Yeah, well,

if you engage at 8, it's a long time before that claxon is going to stop ringing.

Yeah, I need new batteries for the clacks.

Yeah, you're going to need

a bigger clack.

No, sorry, six years almost of clacksoning is quite a lot.

So she's 12.

Lovely, great.

Yeah, so in 11:16, we have expedition number two.

Okay.

Guys, he's back.

Everyone, keep your eyes on the Pope.

Take the locks, change the keys, keep an eye.

Yeah, so Henry's back in order to claim the land of Matilda of Tuscany.

Another Matilda.

Another Matilda.

Another Matilda.

Our third Matilda so far.

So she has supposedly arranged for her lands to be passed to Henry, so he comes back and claims them.

But Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress in Peratrix Romanorum in 1117, but also again not by the Pope.

So.

Oh, I see.

I see.

I see.

So so does her husband crown her no so henry's crowned for the second time matilde's crowned for the first time so they're crowned not by the pope by the archbishop of breger and therefore this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either but matilda takes this on fully and is like well no i'm empress now that's going to be my title that's what i'm going to use she's like 12 at this point like 14 or something uh she's probably like 15 i think at this point yeah 15.

and because the next year she's in charge right because henry's off yeah henry abruptly has to go back to germany to settle matters in 1118 and he leaves matilda in charge of italy which ain't quite a lot for a 16 year old but i mean i think a lot of 16 year olds might like being in italy for a year i can't believe you're leaving me in charge of italy this is so unfair

but it does show how much henry kind of trusts her capabilities that he does think at 16 yeah that she can do this wow so in some ways horrific child marriage in other ways, supportive husband.

Warm way.

I still think that Claxon's going.

I'm still honking the Claxon all the way through this episode.

So we've met three Matildas so far.

Carrie Add, just as a

little fun game, how many Matildas will we meet by the end of the episode?

Seven?

Not seven.

Okay, five.

Yeah, it's five.

Five, great.

Five.

And how many Henrys?

Well, I don't know.

How far are we going up to?

I know there's eight.

It's facing me out now.

I'm not going that far.

It hasn't been a Henry 9, has it?

Well, Henry VIII was Henry VIX, but we won't go into that.

What?

Yeah, because there's Henry the Young kick.

Never mind.

We'll move on.

That's right.

Three Henrys.

You can expect three Henries.

Okay, so five Matildas and three Henri Yes.

You can expect three Henrys.

Yes.

So, Gabby, we've got Empress Matilda.

She's suddenly demoted in 1125.

Oh, what?

What happened?

She's been ruling Italy, she's the Empress, and then suddenly...

Nope.

No, because Henry V dies.

Heinrich.

Does Henry Funf is dead?

Kaputz.

He goes to Kaputz.

Nine does his ein

Henry Fifth, oh no.

So he just dies, but she's left unprotected.

Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow, they have no children.

No kids, oh no.

Though interestingly, she's not blamed for the lack of no kids.

Well, she barely had a bloody moment to do it, guys.

Yeah.

Yeah, but usually the blame is ascribed to the woman.

But this case, because obviously Henry has kidnapped a Pope and you know, he's been quite sinful.

So the blame's put her.

He's literally in a different country half the the time.

He was in Germany, she was in Italy.

It's very hard to do long, you can't really, you know, long-distance intercourse.

You can't do long-distance intercourse, no.

That shit, but yeah,

so they're looking forward to the fact that Matilda, what is she gonna do now?

You know, 23, so she's not allowed to rule in Germany.

The Germans are like, get out of here, you're nothing to us.

Pretty much.

She could marry a German prince, enter a nunnery, or go back to England.

Three options are

enter a nunnery.

I'm okay.

Yeah.

But she decides to go back to England in 1126 and she does not go back alone.

She decides to take back some of the jewels with her.

So she takes two of Henry's crowns.

Two of Henry's imperial crowns with her.

I'm taking these as well.

I don't care if you don't like me.

I mean, that feels like a theft, really, because basically she's been asked to leave politely.

She says, I'm having this.

She's like, all his family, like, like we never like to anyway she's like well i've taken the crabs okay and yeah i'm gonna come back from tuscany one day as well she does also take the hand of saint james the apostle as a restaurant yeah because you always you always need a dead saint's hand yeah just in case protection along the way fabulous all right there's another reason that she's needed back home her dad king henry king henry the second he's lost his heir

first he's lost his heir his son So Matilda's brother, William, has died.

By an arrow, but a hunting incident?

No.

Have you ever heard of the White Ship disaster?

No.

I mean it's it's a kind of huge dynastic catastrophe, Gabby.

Can you sort of talk us through?

It's 1120, right?

Yes, 1120, yep.

So November 1120, the English royal court's been in France because they possess Normandy at this point.

So you've had the Dukes of Normandy become the kings of England, so they've got control over both of those areas.

Now, Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships.

William on the white ship, which was captained by Thomas Fitz Stephen, and his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conqueror over in the first place.

Oh, so it's a Nepo hire.

Yes, yes,

yeah, dad did it, so it's my job to do it.

I'm sure I can do it.

I like my dad knew how to do this.

Now, as is typical, dad sets off first, but William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a parte before they get on the ship.

And Fitz Stephen also claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship.

So the sailors leave at night, not always advisable in the first place, is it?

And go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks.

So

yes, the rock rips the hole, ship sinks and all but one of the 300 passengers

die, which is a butcher from Rwan.

So we only have one butcher's word.

Let me tell you it was not me.

They were also drowned.

So you didn't drink?

No, no, no, no, no, no.

i did not i was not the one who bought the boots so we we've lost the heir to the throne yeah william her brother who's drowned he leaves behind a widow and her name is matilda of course yeah so that's matilda number four so matilda returning to england kind of handy because suddenly here's an heir yeah but a woman so how do they feel about that no so not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point, but they've not had it in England before, certainly not in the kingdom of England.

Henry decides to get married again in case.

Just in case, yes.

Just in case he can get another son.

She's a Justin girl, so I need to get on some other kids as soon as possible because I can't.

Even a baby would be better than this.

A baby boy, at least six months old.

We could get him engaged.

Yeah, Henry I, Henry VIII, still looking for that,

you know, backup plan in the boy.

So Henry gets married to Adelaide of Lavon in 1121, but he does make plans.

So he does ask the bishops and magnates of England to swear oaths three times to acknowledge Matilda as queen if he dies

but Anglo-Normans kind of a new dynasty not very secure right so it's a bit of a precarious matter whether they are anyone could accept Matilda so they so three oaths are are sworn in what 1128 1131 1127 so between four years three oaths if you were Matilda Carriot how would you feel about being demoted from Imperatrix Romanorum to backup plan insurance policy number four four.

Well, look, I would be cool with it because I would think this sounds easier than trying to rule Germany and Italy and control a Pope.

But I'm a practical lady.

I imagined maybe she felt it was a step down from the Holy Roman Empress of Europe to just being Queen of England.

Probably wasn't that exciting at that point.

Well, I mean, Henry's not done with the marrying yet, is he?

Of course, well, she's only young, right?

24.

24, but 4 and 20, as Jane Ralston would say.

She's almost a spinster, but not not quite.

So he marries her off again.

Okay.

Again, inappropriate aged husbands.

Oh, what is he, like 80 or something?

Other way around.

Oh, no, he's like seven.

He's a teenager, so she's the cougar this time.

She's

how old's than you, hubby?

So Geoffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda.

And the age gap there is what?

11 years.

So, you know, we're getting into another problematic marriage pattern there.

It's a whole other battery.

I'm going to have to install another one.

Sorry.

She's not impressed, right?

No, No, she's not.

Young Geoffrey, not of Monmouth.

That's young Geoffrey, I know, guys.

That's a good medieval name.

Thank you.

This is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right?

No Plantagenet.

So he is Count of Anjou.

So Anjou is a central county in France at this point.

That's where we get the term Angevin from.

Anjouvin Kings of England, which might...

Not Angenoux in Montevideo.

Not Angenoux, but

he wasn't Angernoux.

No,

guys.

He's not that sophisticated.

But yeah, Matilda's not happy.

He's socially inferior because he's only a count remember she's just been married to the holy roman emperor so she's got a teenager and a count it's quite a big step down a bit embarrassing yeah yeah but geoffrey is made a knight very quickly to try and elevate prestige in the eyes of matilda and when his father leaves to marry the queen of jerusalem he's then made count and does he just come over to england and just is living with her like no she goes over to she has to go to anjou i see so she has to go and live there so she's on her fourth language by now third language.

We would have had Latin, French, German,

probably a bit of Italian, maybe a smattering of English.

But Latin's the language of the court, so English is the language of the

common people.

And English at this time is what we'd call old English, so it's not modern English.

Yeah, yeah.

She's eating with a knife and a fork.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, so poor Matilda, so far, has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter of her own teenage husband.

And she has a baby, and that's healthy.

Second child, but it's very dangerous.

Yes, she nearly dies.

Yes, she does think she's going to die.

She makes all her funeral arrangements and everything, and you know, sorts out a will effectively and her bequest because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her.

But son number one is another Henry.

Sure, why not?

It ain't broke, don't fix it.

Son number three.

Yep, son number two, the problematic one is Geoffrey.

Oh, this is Jeffrey.

Yeah, and they go on to have a third son, William, as well.

So that's it.

Three beautiful, healthy boys.

But yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic.

Okay.

So there we go.

So dad so far has been ruling her love life.

He's married her off twice.

But crucially, in 1135, meddling dad...

He passes away.

And at 1135, the King of England is dead.

And all those oaths have been sworn.

Three oaths.

The triple lock.

And you know how reliable bishops are in history.

If they agree something, those bishops never let you down.

So the next ruler of England, Karyad, is...

well i imagine they're trying to stop it being matilda

yeah they're causing a council do they want it to go to her son are they trying to do it that way i mean that would that would make more sense but no they just bring in some random they always bring in some random who is it

do you want to talk us through yes yep so matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin stephen

or steve

steve shall we call him steve first

stephen the blois he is crowned on the 22nd of december so henry dies on the 1st of December.

Stephen is crowned on the 22nd of December.

Three weeks later.

So literally.

That is a quick party arrangement.

It's even like the same age as her.

You know, they have a cousin, a similar age, and your families are like, well, Stephen got five A stars in his GCSEs, Matilda.

Stephen's going to Oxford.

Stephen's actually become King of England.

Yeah.

Poor Matilda.

I mean, it does help talking of meddling bishops.

Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is a big.

But Matilda, when we were talking about pregnancies, she has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk.

Is she pregnant when that happens, when her dad dies?

Yes.

This poor woman, this is a lot to deal with.

And she's also, to be fair, she's battling with her father at this point.

So when Henry dies, they're not on good.

There's already complex trauma in the relationship and then the grief happens.

Yes, this is a lot.

Stress.

We've all been there.

Then your cousin takes the

royal throne.

Yeah, you're left up in Normandy.

So the cousin's swooping in.

So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave.

It's absolutely

21st century.

Something's never changed, right?

Oh, something's never changed.

Poor Matilda.

Poor Matilda.

So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B.

the throne thief.

That's his hip-hop name.

King Stephen.

Stephen of Bois.

Yeah.

Who is he?

Yeah.

So he's about 10 years older than Matilda.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Depending.

If we go with the 1092 1092 birthday, he is the third son of King Henry I's sister Adela.

So there is a

family relationship there.

He's a favourite of Henry I.

He grows up in the English court because his mum sent him there, thinking it'd be more sophisticated and they'll learn.

So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead when he does nip across the channel.

He's been hanging out with the lads and the men's clubs.

Yeah, I get you.

And he's married to Matilda.

Yes, yes.

Heiress to the county of Boulogne.

Oh, my God.

That's our fifth Matilda.

Our final Matilda.

Our fifth and final Matilda.

Yes, okay.

So the obvious question I have to ask you, Carrie Add, is how come Stephen of Bois is still alive when the white ship went down?

Oh.

Why wasn't he on that ship?

Was he on the other ship?

He was not on the other ship.

Wait, what?

Is he a butcher from Wuam?

And he, like, trained really hard and became King Stephen?

No.

Do you remember we said they were having a very sort of boozy party?

Oh, did he pass out and didn't get on the ship?

He got so drunk.

He didn't get on the ship?

He didn't get on the ship because he had debilitating diarrhea.

Debilitating ends.

He had debilitating diarrhea, a brutal hangover, didn't get on the ship.

He didn't get on the white ship because he had the...

Yeah, it's like final destination.

You know, those sort of final destination movies if someone doesn't get on the plane and it crashes and they're like,

yeah, so he was saved.

We've had people in the past who like shut themselves to death, but he was saved by his diarrhea.

So all the other male possible heirs were on that ship apart from Stephen.

Yeah.

Wow.

That is bold, isn't it?

You don't want to bring that up at a dinner party though, do you?

Like, no.

Being like, don't give me too much either.

You can't.

Also, like, Stephen, how comes?

Because you're a brother, all these people.

Yeah, I...

No, I was there.

Where did you get the ship?

Well,

it was too crowded.

It was too busy.

I wouldn't have fitted it on.

Yeah, it was a busy day at the harbour.

I couldn't find it.

Wow.

So there we go.

So Stephen is the king.

Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth, thankfully.

William, yeah.

And now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second, that's my throne.

That's mine.

Should have been me.

Yeah, okay.

So what does she do next?

She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne.

And

she doesn't need any jewels.

She's already got her own crown jewels.

That's right.

She's brought her own.

She's brought a German hat.

Get out of my phone, Stephen.

Yeah, I think it's time now for the anarchy, which

doesn't mean that you can start throwing chairs around the studio.

So this is when she forms a a heavy metal band.

That's right.

She plays rhythm guitar.

She killed her and the anarchy.

That's a great moment for the battle.

It's a great move for a band, isn't it?

Literally.

Yeah, but they do weddings bomb it.

I mean, it's what you want.

We are now into the anarchy, which is not a medieval phrase, right?

Victorian science

coined it as the anarchy

because it's that idea that society completely fell apart.

And there are bits of society that are absolutely wrecked by war during this period, but not all of it.

So, would we call this a civil war?

Yeah.

I think 12th century Civil War, the lesser known of the Civil War, sure.

Perhaps.

How to have fun anytime, anywhere.

Step one, go to chumba casino.com.

Chumbacasino.com.

Got it.

Step two, collect your welcome bonus.

Come to Papa, welcome bonus.

Step three, play hundreds of casino-style games for free.

That's a lot of games, all for free.

Step four, unleash your excitement.

Woo-hoo!

Chumba Casino has been delivering thrills for over a decade.

So claim your free welcome bonus now and live the chumba life.

Visit chumbacasino.com.

No purchase necessary, VGW group void where prohibited by law 21 plus terms and conditions apply.

Wouldn't it be nice if your cash savings could just grow by itself?

With the Wealthfront cash account, it can, earning 4% annual percentage yield from partner banks on your uninvested cash, nearly 10 times the national average.

Just imagine if other things in your life worked the way Wealthfront works.

If your houseplants grew at 10 times the average rate, you'd have 10 times fewer issues with sad, stunted succulents.

Your crocodile ferns would go to the size of crocodiles.

Wealthfront's cash account keeps your money thriving just like that, earning you an industry-leading rate with no account maintenance fees and with free 24-7 instant withdrawals so you can access your money whenever you need it.

Money works better here.

Go to WealthFront.com to start saving.

Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC.

Wealthfront is not a bank.

The APY on cash deposits as of December 27, 2024 is representative, subject to change and requires no minimum.

Funds in the cash account are swept to partner banks where they earn the variable APY.

The national average interest rate for savings accounts is posted on FDIC.gov as of December 16, 2024.

Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford.

It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin.

Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skincare simple and it's loved by millions of women.

It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth, smooth, and nourished.

I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen, which contains all five of her best-selling products, including the amazing youth-activating melon serum.

This next generation serum has the power of melon leaf stem cell technology.

It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles.

With thousands of glowing five-star reviews, why not give it a try?

Subscribe today, and you can get the amazing meaningful beauty system for just $49.95.

That includes our introductory five-piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60-day money-back guarantee.

All of that available at meaningfulbeauty.com.

But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy.

They focus on taking that first, think that's the way forward.

But as we say, we get to around 11.38, 11.39.

She's like, hang on.

Now I need to focus on taking England.

Yeah.

Several of the English barons, including her half-brother Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounce their oath to Stephen.

Matilda's uncle David, the King of Scotland, also causes problem up in the north.

1139, she does apply for the Pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested.

He doesn't reply to her letter.

How do you apply to a letter?

You just fill in a form.

It really sounded like she applied for a job.

Yep, but no luck there.

But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 1139.

And fortunately, her stepmother, Adeliza, who's at Arundel, says, oh, come here.

I'll support you.

Arundel's a very lovely town.

Very nice day out.

It's got a great castle.

Lovely castle.

Lovely antique shops.

Good catheter.

So her ex-husband had kidnapped the Pope, so it's no surprise that

the Pope has holy girls.

I don't know why she's applying to him.

It's a long shot, right?

Yeah.

How old is Matilda at this point?

Late 30s?

Yeah, she's 37.

Wow.

Yeah, she's coming into her own.

She knows what she wants.

Yeah, and again, all that experience she had in Germany, she knows she can rule.

Carrie had, we've got Matilda who's made military inroads.

She's got useful alliances.

She's got family, Roberts, she's got her stepmom, her uncle.

Okay, so the country's divided, civil war.

What team would you have chosen?

Team Matilda or Team Stephen?

And before you give me your answer, I'm just going to give you a little bit of an etymological history here.

Stephen means crown in ancient Greek.

So that's quite a handy name for a king.

But Matilda in old German means mighty in battle.

So, where are you siding?

Who would you go for?

Guys, this is a lot of pressure.

I'm siding with Matilda because I've only really heard her story.

I don't know much about Stephen other than he's a lad's lad.

It's reminding me of Catherine of Aragon

Henry VIII because it's like they surely everyone kind of knows Matilda, right?

But she hasn't been in England for very long.

She has been in England very long.

She left at 8th.

Yeah, she's been over in Europe, hasn't she?

And then she came back, but she was...

So the English court probably is going with Stephen more than Matilda.

But I'm with Matilda.

Okay.

I'm with Mighty in Battle.

Mighty in Battle.

Although, when I think about the ruler with the kings and queens on, I don't really remember Matilda being there repeatedly.

so

I'm a bit worried that it's not gonna work out well for us.

The horrible history song is William William, Henry Stephen, Henry Richard John.

There's no Matilda in it, there's no Matilda.

Okay, okay.

Gabby, talk us through the war then, this brutal anarchy, this civil war.

It's easy to think of this as a dynastic war, but a civil war means you know the ordinary population are caught up in the violence.

Yeah, because they are vassals of the lords, the barons who take sides in this and therefore get involved in the battles.

And we do have quite a few battles.

So once Matilda's got to arundal enjoyed the castle had a few scenic walks makes her way over to bristol off to the west country because her half-brother robert duke of gloucester's there

so he's got people on side for her so they decide to start battling this civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start they hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne always interested in bit land people should just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne

There are very few positive barons in history.

Yeah, there we go.

This kind of carries on for about two years.

In February 1141, have a breakthrough.

Battle of Lincoln.

Stephen is captured.

So Matilda has Stephen in chains.

Oh, my God.

And he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle.

Wow.

And she now is the queen, yes?

Yes?

No, the barons don't back it, right?

Come on.

Nope.

Nope.

Absolutely.

She's not there yet.

So we have this this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course.

So she starts minting some coins.

Has Lady of the English stamped on the coins as like a precursor to becoming queen.

And she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her.

They will not let her in.

But Carrie had told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular.

Yeah, I honestly remembered that completely incorrectly.

That when I'm sure I remember him saying that she was a like that Stephen was not as as popular and the people cheered Matilda.

Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, is popular.

Oh, maybe I'll make it one

audience.

The other Matilda.

That may be where character is coming together.

It's very easy to mix in Matilda's.

Five Matildas to deal with.

Yes, there was something that she was very popular and the crowd were like cheering outside Westminster Abbey.

So not for Empress Matilda, who they're like, you have you, boom, mate.

They were cheering for Queen Matilda.

So there's already a Queen Matilda.

There it is.

Stephen's wife, Queen Matilda.

So for simplicity, I will do Queen Matilda and Empress Matilda.

Yeah, so there you go.

I had read about Queen Matilda and I thought it was our Matilda, but she's Empress Matilda.

This is where the confusion.

But.

But there's always a historical but, isn't there?

So Queen Matilda's actually been threatening the Londoners anyway.

So as much as they like her, she does have her armies going, no, no Empress.

She's not coming in.

Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices.

So she won't give the Londoner special privileges that they've always held.

She's trying to get money from them they're just like you're not coming in London don't annoy the Londoners mate don't annoy them yeah so come on you know we've seen that she's had all this political skill but it just doesn't pay off here it really doesn't is it because she's showing up wearing her German crown wearing her German shoes saying hello

I am your queen

I don't think you need those privileges anymore and you will need to pay me tax so I can live in Bristol.

Yeah.

I mean we'll get to this.

I think we'll talk about this later, but kind of the reasons why.

But I think

it must have been a humiliating moment, right?

The rightful queen who has won militarily, who has captured the

rights.

She should, by right.

Sail into Westminster.

And yeah, the people of London are like, get out, love.

You know, you're not around here.

And she just goes home.

Yeah, what happens?

No, so she...

flees back to the west country and you know where she's safe and you know tries to negotiate with matilda so we've got the battle of the matildas now going on because stephen's still imprisoned so we have the siege of winchester in september 1141

but empress matilda doesn't come out of this very well either she's forced to flee when queen matilda rocks up with her armies yet again so this queen matilda's like hot on her heels isn't she like powerful woman and using her political strength

and unfortunately winchester goes very badly because robert of gloucester empress matilda's half-brother is captured oh no so now we have the negotiations of matilda being like give me back Stephen, Matilda, give me back Robert, Stephen, Robert, Stephen, Robert.

Get out of.

This is like Pat and Peggy all over again.

Very equally matched,

different sides of the square, but basically the same person.

She's got Stephen for Duke of Gloucester.

Yeah.

Oh, Matilda.

And Stephen is released and then...

goes back on the throne.

Yeah, straight back on that throne with his very powerful and clever and politically astute wife, Matilda.

Yeah.

Well, it's got to rub in a little bit, hasn't it?

That it's the same name.

So, like, everyone's like, oh, I love that Queen Matilda.

And she's like, oh, oh, you mean that one, of course?

Yeah, yeah.

And then we get an even bigger disaster, Gabby.

Oh, no.

Battle of Oxford.

Yep.

So this is 11:42.

So Empress Matilda is again forced to flee.

And this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time.

Stephen besieges the city, they are sieged for three months, and eventually she is forced to escape.

She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out of the gate.

Wow, that's Game of Thrones.

Well, it's sort of, it's kind of camouflage, right?

It's all sneaky, sneaky.

But you can see one of the characters in the white, yeah, you know, Jon Snow is like gone this way, and then she cuts her white cloak and then runs through.

Presumably, an ermine fur.

Presumably, I'm trying to think what's a white animal that they would have skinned

in anticipation, like, come here, little weasel.

So she's.

A thousand white ferrises.

Well, that's literally.

It's a lot of animals.

skinned for you, Matilda.

So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides to safety.

So she's not captured.

She is the European hide and seek champion.

Yeah,

does she go back to Europe at this point?

Yeah, I mean, in the movie, Escaping in the Snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right?

Yeah, but in terms of the history books.

Yeah, unfortunately not.

So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost, she's lost her.

Yeah, she lost it, but it's gone.

Yeah.

Moment's gone.

Yeah, and I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority.

Rarely sought in the room.

Not king once, but king at all.

Twice, Slanderland.

Stephen II.

Yeah, exactly.

Yep.

If you remember her older son, Henry.

Yep.

So he does try and invade in 1147 on.

In the name of his mum?

In the name of his mother.

Oh, it's so adorable.

But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge.

That's classic teenager in the name.

Yes, you know, absolutely.

Very well.

He's 14.

That's so sweet.

this is actually my I should be like the king like so reasonable yep and Stephen has to pay for Henry's troops to go away because Henry doesn't have the money to pay them so he's so charming

slash embarrassing it's really it's really cringe isn't it and then he comes back two years later 1149 and that's a failure as well because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands.

So he doesn't have the best of luck.

Matilda transfers her claim over to him and he does these little hurries over the next few years but it doesn't really get anywhere

until

I was gonna say because

he becomes Henry II at some point and he's the start of the plantagenets right so yeah when does he get his st stuff together?

Well it's worth mentioning we haven't mentioned so far Eustace.

Eustace is the the king's son, Stephen's son and he he carks it.

He he sort of kills over dead.

He'd been the heir apparent.

Yeah you don't get King Eustace bandied around.

No, but interestingly Stephen doesn't seem very sure on naming Eustace as his heir.

So he had tried to have him kind of crowned as a co-king, but the Pope at the time

said no, we're not having two kings in England at the same time, so he can't be co-king.

He tried to deal with the problem that happened to Matilda by being like, I'm just going to like start him as a CEO now.

We're both the CEOs and we're both in charge.

Jobshare, I do Mondays and Wednesdays, Fridays.

So basically when I die, you've already got a king that you're used to.

Yeah.

But Eustace just isn't really put in place.

He's Eustace.

Eustace the useless.

Yeah, yeah.

Effectively.

And Henry has gone off, made a sterling marriage for himself to Eleanor of Aquitaine.

So he's now got even more resources.

So once Eustace dies...

And he's got the need for vengeance.

Yes.

Like he's got the, like, a country was taken from him.

He's been waiting in Normandy all this time, training there, night and day at Taiwan.

It's worth pointing out though, that Eustace has a brother.

Yes.

Yeah.

There is an heir.

Just sitting there going,

I can do it.

I'm here.

I'm also here, Jash.

Yeah.

And Stephen's like, absolutely not.

So, um, what's his brother called?

William.

Oh, another William.

Yeah.

Another Eustace Williams.

I've had all the exams.

Yep.

So

put me in, Dad.

I'm ready.

It's like the Roman in succession.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, we've got Kendall, we don't need you.

Yep.

So Stephen and Henry make the Treaty of Winchester agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling

on how to rule.

Henry is named as heir, and William is going to renounce all his claims to the throne and has to pledge allegiance to Henry.

Even though he's the rightful King of England.

That's really weird, isn't it?

That's really pretty, isn't it?

Yeah.

Wow.

Because it feels like there's a whole vibe of, like, everybody was like, yeah, no, not William.

Like, obviously not William, right?

No, no, no.

It's fine.

Like, it's fine.

It can be Henry.

Never mind this huge war we had with his mum.

So we've had a sort of an anarchic civil war that's lasted, I mean, over a decade, right?

But this is bad because her heir then becomes king anyway.

So, Stephen basically just wanted

the throne for a bit.

Yeah, he wasn't bothered about his

dynasty starting.

It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job.

Yeah.

But then I'm going to give it to your son.

Yeah.

He just didn't want Matilda to have it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's interesting, isn't it?

Right?

Is there something to that?

Is Carrie out right?

It just doesn't want a woman on the throne.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that is potentially part of it in terms of, you know, Matilda goes over what you expect to see of women at this point.

We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England.

But there is the slight issue as well.

They don't like Geoffrey of Anjou.

They don't like Matilda's husband.

They're worried about foreign influence.

If

she becomes queen, like, what's his rule going to be?

Is she going to rule in her own right?

They bypass that.

And then they install his son, who must be of the same lineage as she is.

But he's still a man.

But he's a man, he's a man, and that's much more acceptable to them.

So it's quite a sensible compromise to the end of this devastating civil war.

Everyone's sort of gone, come on, let's just agree on this.

And everyone's gone, all right, all right, all right.

Yeah, because like Henry II is royal, his lineage is good.

And he has all this land through his wife.

So Eleanor of Aquataine brings all this.

So although the opposite applied for Matilda, you know, the idea of the husband being a problem, the queen, the wife, is not a problem, right?

Eleanor is great.

That's very happy.

She's not not going to have any decisions.

She's just going to bring her land.

Okay, I can see why they're on board.

So King Stephen died in October 1154.

Henry II becomes the king.

So Matilda's son on the throne.

Yeah.

And Matilda gets to be what?

Queen mum?

Yeah.

I mean, she is a bit of a...

Is she sort of the Chris Jenna here?

Is she kind of a mummy?

Yeah, I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit.

And yeah, absolutely.

She rises from the ashes and is really involved.

So she looks after Normandy pretty much full-time whilst Henry's absent.

Now bearing in mind obviously Henry's got England, he's got all these lands that he's got from Eleanor, Aquitaine and his various other counties.

So Matilda keeps an eye on Normandy again gets involved with the Archbishops.

So

we have

mum dealing with Archbishop of Canterbury one, we have Matilda dealing with Thomas Beckett and Henry and trying to mediate between them and it doesn't go great though let's say no it doesn't one of history's great not

not the outcome you're looking for no but she tries.

She tries.

We've got letters from the time that show that she was very politically astute.

She does get involved.

She's very well respected.

So, for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in 1155 and Matilda warns him against it.

And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time.

He does.

try later after she's died but she still brings all her experience to the fore and you kind of think she must have had a sense of never became queen yeah but but i get to rule through henry which is a pretty common female role at this yeah royal family Yeah, she gets to see her son doing the job and doing it sort of funny.

And Henry II is one of the great kings of English medieval history, right?

Yeah.

He's controversial, he has a temper, he kills the archbishop in a sacred cathedral, so it's not ideal.

But he often goes down as one of the great kings.

Yes, definitely.

And presumably that's partly because of Matilda's influence.

Yeah, I mean, I argue he has a great wife and a great mum, and they do

carry a lot of the work until he pushes them off to one side.

And then you can check out the Eleanor Aquitaine episode for the rest of of that.

But

yes, so Matilda dies in 1167 age, about 65.

Well, she does well, and she dies in Rouen in Normandy.

Yep, and she's buried at the Abbey of Beck, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life.

It was where she gave birth to her second son, and it's a place that's really important to her.

So, Normandy is her life, really.

But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power.

Yes, and I mean, end up in power, yeah, but not as high as maybe she would have hoped for, yeah.

And Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well, her husband Geoffrey, so she kind of just go there.

And Henry II is the first Plantagenet king, is that right?

So she starts a dynasty, yes, yeah, and a really good dynasty in terms of

recognition.

Yeah, yeah, the Plantagenets.

All the way up to Richard III, yeah.

So we kind of discussed it a little bit already, Gabby.

The idea that people rejected a woman, London said no, and there was this sort of moment like everyone's like, wow, we prefer a man.

There is this sort of accusation that Matilda is haughty, arrogant, sort of steps on people's toes and puts noses out of joint and maybe isn't, hasn't got like the kind of soft skills.

Yeah.

Where do you stand on that one?

Yeah, so I think there's an element, certainly, of like 12th century sexism from the writers of the time.

They do expect queens to be in power temporarily, but we have Uraca of Leon-Castile, we have Medicine of Jerusalem, we do have other women who rule in their own right at this time, so it's not uncommon.

They're always daughters of kings, is that fair?

So

it's rare for them to rule, sort of having acquired power themselves, it's often handed down.

Yeah, it's usually inherited.

But as I mentioned, they are suspicious of the role Geoffrey's going to play with regards to that foreign influence.

She does make mistakes.

She winds up the Londoners.

She does release Stephen.

So perhaps not all that political skills there.

But given the chance, she could have done a good job.

And we see that in Normandy.

It's an interesting release of Stephen yeah is so she doesn't murder a king no and then that allows her son to become the star of a dynasty so actually are we looking at her skills and a very like masculine yeah powerful overruling set of skills of like well you didn't get to the throne that means you failed whereas actually does she play a much more manipulative politician's game of i give you the king back so that i can then guarantee this so she actually does get what she wants which is the lineage right yeah and i think she doesn't conform to the gendered boundaries they expect i mean you talk about masculinity there she expects to be kind of female king she expects to be assuming all that power and therefore comes in with the expectation again she's already been holy roman empress she's coming in expecting to rule she's got the crown yes as opposed to perhaps being that more kind of soft diplomacy with the nobles and getting them on side more delicately she's a bit more forceful and i think that's where some of that haughtiness comes from that she's not like when people say she's a diva, but it's like, well, is she a diva, or is she a woman who knows what she would like?

Yes.

You know, she's no.

She's Celine Dion of the 12th century, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Here we go.

Celine Dion of the 12th century.

The nuance window!

Okay, time now for the nuance window.

This is the part of the show where Carrie Ed and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henries that we've mentioned, while Dr.

Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship.

So my stopwatch is ready.

You've got two minutes.

Take it away Dr.

Gabby.

So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it and maybe they're quite pious, maybe they focus on what we call soft power but actually these are women who can rule in their own right so to speak.

They are very powerful.

They can share power with the king and Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights they work very well together as a couple but going beyond Matilda we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine she brings her power from Aquitaine as duchess and shares that with Henry so I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power it's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage, mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty.

Women are very capable of exercising power.

They do do it on a regular basis, and it's not just agency.

It's not just something that's soft.

Directly with Matilda, we don't see her leading an army at the front of it, but we do see women leading armies in this period as well.

So I think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule.

Not all power is vested in one man.

It's shared with his mum in the case of Matilda.

It's shared with his wife.

It can be shared with his daughters or...

you know, sometimes with other men, but you know, with

governors and regents and so forth as well.

So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think.

They're not just there to give birth to children.

They do quite well.

Thank you so much, Gabby.

Fascinating, Cabby.

Yeah, yeah, amazing.

Absolutely amazing.

Yeah.

It's been quite a life, Matilda's life.

I can't wait to see the film.

I can't wait to see Anne Hathaway in a white coat sneaking out.

Kate Blanchett, I feel like Kate Blanchett might be good.

Who's playing the eight-year-old?

I mean, that's tough, isn't it?

That's tough.

You've got to do a big national casting for that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, obviously.

That's huge.

That's huge.

But for the later Queen Mid Empress Matilda.

Yeah.

So what do you know now?

Time now for the sub what do you know now.

This is our quickfire quiz for Carrie Ad to see how much she's learned.

Carriead, you're very good at the quizzes.

I know, but I always get really stressed.

I feel like history GCC all over again.

If you're in an absolute crisis situation, just say Matilda or Henry, and you're probably getting right.

Yeah, I probably will.

But here we go.

10 questions.

Okay.

Question one.

Who was Matilda's father who betrothed her eight to be married and maybe killed his own brother?

Henry I.

It was Henry.

Yeah, so I doubted myself there.

I was like, Henry I, yeah.

Question two, where did Matilda spend most of her youth and teenage years?

Germany.

It was Germany.

Question three: What was the White Ship disaster?

The White Ship disaster, Greg, is a real big incident in medieval history.

I'm surprised Kara didn't know about it.

This is where they're sailing back from Normandy to England, and Henry I's son was on there, William.

And there was another ship that went off, but they all got drunk.

They shouldn't have been steering a ship.

They shouldn't have been doing that.

It's like Holly Oaks when the young guys get drunk and get in a car.

And 300 sailors died.

And the only person left was the butcher of Rowan, who claims, which I'm doubting the story.

He's like, oh, they've had too good a time.

They set sail at night.

You think it's a CIA job, you think?

You think it's an assassination hit?

All the heirs and all the illegitimate sons died, including Williams.

William, Henry I son.

Very comprehensive answer.

Well done.

Question four.

Why did Matilda not want to marry her second husband, Geoffrey of Anjou?

Because he was a teenager, he was 15, and he was not as high up as her.

He was made a count of Anjou, but he wasn't as high up.

Very good, well done.

Question five.

Who seized the throne when Henry I died instead of Matilda, the rightful queen?

Well, of course, it's King Stephen.

King Stephen.

Yes, because his name means crowns.

You know, it's an easy mistake to make.

Question six: Why didn't Stephen drown in the white ship in 1120?

Because he had diarrhea of the bottom and it was coming out of him like a river.

And so he could not move and he was not a well-man.

That's right.

He had regal, fecal

disaster.

Question seven.

How did Matilda cunningly escape from the castle after losing the Battle of Oxford?

She put a white cloak on and padded out into the snow where she could then get away.

Yeah, camouflage back in the 1122.

In 1142.

Look at you in your notes.

Question eight, who led Stephen's army against Matilda after his capture?

Queen Matilda.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Queen Matilda, the other Matilda, who the Londoners did like.

Exactly that.

Question nine, why did the people of London turn Empress Matilda away when she tried to be crowned?

She was trying to charge them extra money.

She was trying to take away their privileges.

And the Londoners are like, we ain't having it.

We ain't having it, Empress.

We've got another Matilda.

We don't need you.

Very good.

And this for a perfect turn.

What was the sensible compromise that ended the anarchy?

King Stephen agreed to let Henry, Empress Matilda's son, become king, hence starting the Plantagenet dynasty in 1154.

10 out of 10, Carriad Lloyd.

Absolutely incredible.

Well done.

Brilliant.

Well done, Carriead.

Thank you very much.

And of course, thank you so much, Gabby, for a wonderful history lesson.

And listener, if you want more medieval queens with Dr.

Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleno Accatane, featuring Carriead's ostentatious castmate, Rachel Parris.

For more, Carriead, obviously, we've got lots of episodes with you, but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves.

And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil Wars, which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War.

But that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend let's call it the anarchy as a whole other thing.

I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.

We had the fantastic Dr.

Gabrielle Story.

Thank you, Gabby.

Thank you, Greg and Carriad.

Well, done for not throwing any chairs around.

It was a very

placid anarchy today, wasn't it?

We were very calm.

And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever-brilliant Carriad Lloyd.

Thank you, Carriad.

Au revoir, mon sire,

as they would have said.

Yeah, I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking-sounding.

It was much more harsh, Norman.

Yes, the Caesar K's in Norman French.

Anyways, can knife is sharp.

Yes.

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise.

But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me.

It's mine, all mine.

Bye!

Your Dead to Me is at BBC Studios Audio Production for BBC Radio 4.

Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

I'm Amanda Yunucci.

And I'm Helen Lewis.

A comedy writer and a journalist, teaming up like a pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes.

Our mission is to decipher political language.

Stress testing to destruction those used and abused buzzwords and phrases.

Finding out what they really mean.

And looking at whether they're meant to deceive us, or to distract us, or to disturb us.

And our pledge is to help you spot the tricks of the verbal trait but be won this series does feature strong political language that some listeners may find an inverted pyramid of piffle strong message here from bbc radio 4 listen now on bbc sounds

Sucks!

The new musical has made Tony award-winning history on Broadway.

We demand to be home!

Winner, best store!

We demand to be seen!

Winner, best book!

We demand to be quality!

It's a theatrical masterpiece that's thrilling, inspiring, dazzlingly entertaining, and unquestionably the most emotionally stirring musical this season.

Suffs!

Playing the Orpheum Theater October 22nd through November 9th.

Tickets at BroadwaysF.com