Marie Antoinette: last French queen before the Revolution

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hello greg here just a reminder before we get going that episodes of you're dead to me are released on fridays wherever you get your podcasts but if you're in the uk you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else first on bbc sounds

Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history history seriously.

My name is Greg Janner.

I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster.

And today we are hopping into our hoops skirts and styling our hair in the French fashion as we travel back to 18th century France to learn about Queen Marie Antoinette.

And to help us separate myth from reality, we have two very special courtiers.

In History Corner, she's professor of French studies at the University of Warwick.

Her research focuses on French culture in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods, especially plays, prints and novels.

She's the author of Narrative Responses, The Trauma of the French Revolution is Professor Catherine Asprey.

Welcome, Kate.

Thank you very much for inviting me.

And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand-up comedian, actor, and writer.

You'll have seen her on all the tele, Live of the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order.

Maybe heard her on podcasts like WTB, which means women talking bollocks.

I can't say that on Radio 4, but I can on the podcast.

Or her other podcast, Memory Lane.

And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Hernan, Cortez, and Malinsin.

And of course, Emma of Normandy.

It's Jen Brister.

Welcome back, Jen.

Thank you, Greg.

I'm delighted to be back.

We have previously done together English history, Spanish history, Mexican history.

Obvious question, do you parlay vous française?

Empeti peu.

Oh, let's like, don't, I don't want to get into it because I don't want to embarrass Kate.

Or yourself, Greg.

Thank you.

You're both fluent.

But I am very excited about this particular episode, not least because it is French history.

What a joy.

But because I actually know who this person is.

And this is the first time I've been invited onto the show with a historical figure that's whose name I recognise.

So I'm delighted.

Yeah, we're not punishing you anymore.

No!

I'm just like, yes, I know who this person is.

Marie Antoinette, you know the name, so do you know some of the story?

Look, I know the story that was told when I was a child, and I think most of the myths around Marie Antoinette are, as we have learned later as an adult, are complete lies.

So I'm going to say almost everything I know about this historical figure is not true.

So I'm really intrigued to hear the truth of her life and of her impact in French history.

So, what do you know?

This is a so what do you know?

Where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.

And I bet you all shouted, Let them eat cake.

She didn't say it.

Come on.

You may have seen Sophia Coppola's fabulous 2006 film Marie Antoinette with a punk rock soundtrack starring Kirsten Dunst, or the most recent Marie Antoinette TV drama series on the BBC.

Of course, you might also remember the shocking Grammy Award-winning performance by heavy metal titans Gogira at the 2024 Paris Olympic Opening Ceremony, accompanied by numerous decapitated Marie Antoinette in blood-red dresses.

Marie Antoinette is a modern pop culture icon, but what was her life really like?

How did an Austrian princess become France's doomed queen?

And how many dresses did she really own?

Let's find out.

All right, Professor Kate, let's start at the beginning.

That seems like a sensible place to begin.

When and where was Marie Antoinette born and was that her name?

So, the Archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria was born on the 2nd of November 1755, the 15th child of 16 of the Empress Maria Theresa, ruler of the Habsburg dynasty from 1740, and father, Emperor Francis I.

Her mother, Maria Theresa, was a political powerhouse and played a huge role in managing military and diplomatic affairs.

In 1756, she made a momentous alliance with Austria's age-old enemy France, reversing 200 years of hostility.

And as a result, Austria was drawn into a global conflict known subsequently as the Seven Years' War, when fighting over British and French colonial possessions in the Americas and the Caribbean spread to Europe.

At court in Vienna, they spoke German, French, and Italian.

And Maria Antonia grew up sliding between being called Antonia and Antoine.

All the girls in the family had Maria as a first name, so they tended to avoid that.

They were all called Maria.

They were all called Maria.

It was a family tradition.

The girls all had Maria Maria as a family.

How do you solve a problem like Maria?

You use the second name.

Because she was also one of the youngest in the family.

She was also referred to as Antoinette, which is the French diminutive, meaning little Antoine.

And in the end, that's the name that stuck.

It's cute.

Yeah.

They do that in Spain as well.

They have a little diminutive name.

They're all called Maria.

I feel like that's 16 kids.

Come on.

No, well, the boys weren't called Maria, are they?

What were they called?

Franz.

Leopold, Joseph.

Good.

Good, good, solid.

Good, solid man days for going to war.

And so she grew up in Vienna.

She grew up in Vienna.

Right, so there's fact numero uno that I did not know.

I thought Marie Antoinette was French.

So that's that's quite embarrassing.

Was Austria part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at that point?

Yes, the Holy Roman Empire.

Good knowledge.

Holy Roli, I called it.

Holy

Roman Empire.

All right.

Okay.

Were you Jenny at any point, Jen?

Did you have a rebrand?

I I honestly, when I was a child, if Jenny came up, even when I was small, I was like, you've got to knock that on the head.

I'm a lot of things, but I'm not a Jenny.

So that's why it's always been Jen.

And the only person that ever referred to me as Jennifer was my mum when I'd done something wrong.

So it's just Jen.

Okay, so we have a princess, we have an Archduchess.

You can presumably guess what her future is going to be, Jen, in terms of what mother is planning for her.

Yes, I imagine she's planning a very prestigious marriage into a very prestigious court in France.

Yeah, bang on.

I mean, that's the plan, right?

Absolutely.

Got it in one.

Yeah.

So we're minutes into the episode, already wedding bells.

We're talking about a little girl here.

Yes, we are.

Oh, wait a second.

Hang on, rewind.

I was talking about in the future.

So she had been betrothed as a child.

She is betrothed as a child.

Maria Theresa's plan is for her to marry the French King Louis XV's grandson, who's also called Louis.

We've got all the girls, all the girls in Austria called Maria, and all the boys in France called Louis.

The idea is that it will cement the political alliance.

Negotiations don't begin in earnest until Antoinette is about 10.

Louis's father,

Louis's father, little Louis, little Louis' father has died and he becomes heir to the throne in France, is known as the Dauphin.

And at that point, Maria Theresa decides that this is going to be a great way of reinforcing this new alliance between the age-old enemies, Austria and France.

Louis is only a year older than Antoinette, but that's considered good because they're quite close in age.

But he's described as a lanky, silent, nervous lad.

Okay.

So.

Aren't all teenage boys?

Aren't all boys lanky?

Quite a standard boy, that is a teenage boy.

You said she spoke French, Italian, German.

Yes, Court speaks a mixture of the three languages.

And Maria Theresa finds two French actors to teach her daughter French pronunciation and conversation ready to start preparing her for moving to France.

And this is at the age of 10 that they start this preparation for her.

And do they have, like, they've already decided, is it quite usual then to get married

before they're 16?

Or is it?

Oh, it is.

It is normal, yes.

For average people, no, but for princes, for dynasty.

But for royalty, yeah.

So let's talk about Marie Antoinette.

Are we calling her Maria?

Marie Antoinette, what's what's what's what's her name for her?

She she signs letters as Antoine or as Antoinette.

Okay, let's call her Antoinette then.

Okay, Antoinette.

Uh, Jen, do you think she's a good student?

You know, she's got these teachers, these French actors teaching her, uh, you know, how to how to converse and be witty and chatty.

Do you think she's a good student?

Do you think she's a bit ditzy?

Do you think she's distracted?

What's your vibe?

I've got no idea, but I'm going to say that I imagine she's a good student because she does go on to do very well in the French court.

So I imagine that she learns French quite easily if she's already speaking German and Italian in court.

Am I close?

I think Ditsy might be closer than...

Oh no!

I was really fighting for you, fighting for her.

Come on, Antoinette.

Well, her brother rather unkindly called her an airhead.

She was allegedly very easily distracted, not particularly interested in serious topics.

Much prefers dancing, music, drawing to reading.

The French court get wind of the fact that she's been taught French by two actors, so they decide to send a more appropriate tutor, a man called the Abbe de Vermont, who then has a couple of years at most to prepare her to be wife.

to the heir to the throne.

But she's already 13 and it's a bit late to make a substantial difference really to the gaps in her education.

He teaches her to read and write in French.

He teaches her a little bit about French history and tries to explain how to behave at court because there's a very strict etiquette at French court.

She hadn't liked her previous governess, so the Abbe tried hard to make her like him in the hope that this would help remedy the poor education she'd had up until then.

But in making his lessons fun, he prioritised style over substance.

And when she gets to France, her education is found to be somewhat lacking.

So she has got to that point now at the age of 13.

She's going to now move away from her home in the Vienna court to go to Paris to live with her new husband who is 14.

Wow, this is quite something, isn't it?

And already she leaves with the reputation of being a bit of an airhead.

Yeah, but she's not ready yet, Jen.

She has to be prepared in other ways.

Well, surely she has to have a period.

Crucially, yes.

Yes, no, that's not.

I mean, you can't marry a young girl off to have children without that.

No, you remember all those 90s makeover sort of shows that you'd see and kind of classic the kind of rom-coms as well, where the girl takes off her glasses and she's hot.

They kind of do that to her, but it's a lot more cruel and unusual, isn't it?

Okay, I mean.

It is.

Are you ready for how she's remodelled for her French future husband?

She has a French hairdresser sent to style her hair in the French way because she has a characteristic Habsburg forehead.

So they want to try and do the hair so that it minimises the foreignness of her forehead.

What do you mean by Habsburg forehead?

Is it because her forehead is too far back?

Yes.

The Habsburgs were renowned for inbreeding, and so they had a certain physical

appearance that was sort of renowned.

She had painful orthodontic work to straighten her teeth.

So braces at 14 is standard for a lot of teenagers now, but in the 18th century, that is not.

More unusual.

Yeah.

She also had to wear corsets to improve her silhouette.

Right.

A little bit of padding to disguise the fact that one of her shoulders was higher than the other.

They had to bring in a French ballet master to teach her how to dance with the large skirts, the high heels, and a train.

She has to learn how to walk and hold her head up in a manner appropriate for a future queen.

So there's a lot of preparations going into making her the real deal for when she gets to France.

Proper makeover.

I get the ache when I'm expected to put foundation on.

I'm like, please, I just can't be bothered, but this is way too much.

And then, yeah, yeah, she's sent off to France aged 14.

So cue the problematic marriage claxon, which we unfortunately have to honk a lot on this show.

Jen, what words of wisdom would you give to a teenage girl heading off to a foreign land to marry an awkward, lanky, anxious stranger?

Oh my God, I don't know if I'm the right person to give this advice.

Do you know what I mean?

My advice would be stay true to yourself and don't compromise and make sure you get what you want out of this relationship.

I mean, that's very good advice.

Probably quite bad advice for the the French court.

That's probably going to rub up a lot.

Yeah.

The French would be quite annoyed if you showed up with that.

Sure, I know.

I mean, that's why I'm definitely not the right person to ask about that.

So the advice would be the opposite.

Yeah, fit in.

Fit in.

Don't stand out.

Don't stand out.

And just do whatever you have to do.

Be as French as you can.

And so when she arrives in France, what are you imagining?

Are you thinking Harry and Megan?

Is it Kate and Wills?

You know, what kind of...

What's the vibe?

Is it fun?

Are people happy?

You know?

those are the only two options you've got those are the only two options

okay I'm gonna sidestep comparing the wedding to either she well call her Marie Antoinette now once she reaches France she adopts the name Marie Antoinette okay to sort of make her more French she arrives in May 1770 and meets King Louis XV

at Compiègne.

She bowed low but he scooped her up in a loving fatherly hug.

Oh that's nice.

Apart from the fact that his reputation as a libertine perhaps means that it's slightly less nice than it might seem.

She's then introduced to young Louis, her future husband, and the extended family.

And two days later, the 16th of May, the pair were married at Versailles, and she became Dauphinesse Dauphine of France.

Libertine's just a shagger, isn't it?

Yes.

Libertine is that very posh word for

enjoyer of life.

Okay, got you, got you.

Which, of course, in the 18th century meant shagging as many women as he could.

She gets a wedding gift.

She gets a hugely expensive wedding gift from her father-in-law, so Louis XV,

a cabinet filled with jewellery and precious objects.

The whole marriage is on a really grand scale because he's trying to present his reign as really prosperous and successful when, in fact, the state finances aren't very healthy.

So he's ruining the state for show, and Marie Antoinette is being unwittingly implicated in that deception because she's receiving a ridiculously extravagant set of jewellery as a wedding gift from her grandfather-in-law.

Famously, things often go wrong at weddings.

Usually it's a sort of drunk uncle on the dance floor.

Yeah.

Occasionally, you have to

have something, a minor scrape or something.

But in this case, people die.

What?

Quite a lot of people die.

Do you mean members of the public?

Yeah.

Like outside because of big crowds.

Exactly that.

So there was a planned firework display for the people of Paris.

as a sort of a reward and to

spread the love.

Thunderstorms delayed it.

And when the display did happen, a stray firework set fire to the Temple of Hyman.

And in the ensuing chaos, 132 people were crushed to death.

Oh my god, that's awful.

It's not a great omen for the marriage, is it?

On your wedding day, when yeah, the Temple of Hyman as well, of course.

Yes, it just adds to the overall

sense of it being a bad omen.

That's not the end of it, because Jen, on the wedding night, things get even more awkward.

Do you know why?

Why would it be awkward for the new married couple?

Well, they don't know what they're doing.

Not just that.

They don't know what they're doing with an audience.

Why does it

have to make sure that

she's that they're a going-to-bed ceremony?

Oh, come on.

It's hard.

I mean, we've all remember our first time.

Can you imagine with an audience anything worse?

Kate, talk us through it.

So the Archbishop blesses the bed.

That's definitely going to get you in the mood.

That's really going to get you in the mood.

Louis XV then hands the Dauphin his night shirt.

Grandfather is there

offering advice.

Marie Antoinette is receiving her night shirt in a neighbouring room from another courtier, the Duchess of Chardres.

They then have to lie down in front of the king and the entire court to prove that they have shared the same bed.

And at that point, everyone leaves.

And then everyone leaves.

Yes, so they're not actually.

Okay, so they're not watching

the consummation of the marriage.

Thank God.

Okay, that's fine.

So it's not fine.

It's awful, but that would have been way too much.

So then they're left together in this very romantic mood, isn't it?

I mean, romantic.

Super romantic.

Fireworks, people have died.

Your grandfather is handing you,

he's telling you what to do.

You're like, yeah.

The king's advice.

Was it useful, Kate?

Did Louis rise to the occasion, so to speak?

Louis did not rise to the occasion.

The marriage was unconsummated for seven years.

Aha, Kelsey Paris.

Is he gay?

Or traumatised.

He's could be traumatised.

Right.

There's a lot of discussion over why was the marriage not consummated.

Seven years is a long time because I can get like that day would have been very traumatic.

But at some point, someone's got to get in the mood, haven't they?

And also, your adolescence, that's when all the hormones.

I mean, yeah.

That's when you're at your randiest, right?

But nothing.

This is a huge constitutional problem, right?

The future of the French monarchy and the Austrian sort of trade deal is at stake here.

We don't know if it was personal hesitation, whether it was health-related.

In 1777, Marie Antoinette's brother, Joseph, Joseph, visits incognito, and Louis confides in him about the issues that they're having.

In a letter, Joseph then writes that what they're doing was clearly never going to result in pregnancy.

But after his visit, they do finally manage

the marriage.

Okay, did they know how to consummate their marriage?

No, it doesn't matter.

No one had told them how to.

So what they brought up strict Catholic, you don't.

So they've spent seven years just

pumping the pillow and just sort of, you know.

No, wrong hole.

17 seconds.

And then they start having a normal.

He has a little procedure as well, doesn't he, Louis?

He does.

So which potentially may be a procedure on, you know.

Sorry, what?

Well, I'm, you know, speculating, but he may have perhaps had pain in that area.

So he might have needed a procedure to, you know, do something down there that loosened some skin, for example.

Oh, so he might have needed to be circumcised or something.

Or something like that.

We don't know.

We are speculating, but you know.

But the procedure was done, and soon after, they were able to consummate.

They were able to consummate the marriage.

At the age of what, 21 and 22.

Yeah.

Okay.

Maybe some things are just best lost to history.

We don't know why.

Seven years.

We'll just sort of

write that off.

Okay, so with the unconsummated marriage already proving an issue, in 1774, so this was still four years into their not sleeping together problem, suddenly Louis was the king of France.

because Louis XV died, making Marie Antoinette the queen of France.

So she was

18 at this point, 19, just about.

Just about 19.

Okay, just turned 19.

So the age at which we would normally maybe go to university or maybe get your first job.

Her first job.

Queen.

Yeah, that's a lot.

What's the first thing she does, Kate, in terms of court politics?

How does it go?

Not perhaps as well as it might have done.

Okay.

I mean, they're both still very young.

They're very inexperienced.

Louis largely leaves her to her own devices.

She has nothing to do.

Because the marriage isn't consummated.

She's not going going to get pregnant and therefore her sole reason for being at court can't exist.

So she fills her time with gambling, with balls, with going incognito into Paris, to balls, to the theatre.

She gathers around her a group of young people nearer her own age.

She's not interested in being polite to the older members of court.

She hates the really strict etiquette of court, so she does all she can to sort of sidestep that.

She'd rather have a little bit of privacy.

She doesn't want to spend all her time in the public eye, and really she carries on living the life she'd lived whilst she was the wife of the heir to France rather than changing her behaviour once she's become queen.

So, Jen, how do you think she's doing on ratemymonarch.com?

Do you think the people of France are pleased about their new queen?

I'm guessing the people of France, and they are very vocal as a people,

are

not at all happy with their new queen, who appears to be just having a big old jolly and ignoring the needs and wants of the people, particularly the working people of Paris, you know, and of France rather.

So I would imagine there's a lot of resentment and anger building.

The problems that will later arise in the French Revolution, they're already there, right?

They are already there, yes.

Yes, okay.

Joan, how would you turn things around if you were Marian Antoinette?

What's your policy to get people to love you?

Well, I would think I would do something for the people and make a really big gesture.

That's like, you know, oh guys, I've got this great big party and I'm going to put it on for you because I love you and I really want you to know that I care about you.

So, you'd say, Let them eat cake.

I would say,

guys, I'm really sorry that you're in poverty, but I've just have you had jelly and ice cream before.

She doesn't have a great deal of power, so I think maybe she would do something that's a little bit um superficial, but make maybe

that's sensible.

Okay, she does the most important thing, of course, she produces an air.

She does that is what makes an air.

That's really what makes a difference.

She does produce an air.

Finally, she has a daughter, Marie-Thérèse Charlotte, born in 1778.

Another Marie.

Another Marie.

Born, of course, in front of the court

because child birth to a queen has to be public to prove that the child has come out of her womb.

Okay, so she, but she has a daughter.

It's a daughter.

It's disappointing.

Luckily, she then carries on with the child.

bearing.

She has Louis Joseph in 1781.

So he will die aged seven just before.

If he was the Dauphin.

He was the Dauphin.

He dies just before the start of the French Revolution in 1789.

Louis Charles, who is born in 1785, and Sophie-Hélène Beatrice in 1786, who dies aged one.

So she has four children, two of whom will die in her lifetime.

She has her sort of squad of ladies at court.

She's got a particularly close friend, hasn't she, Kate?

Yes, her close friend is called Madame de Polignac.

She's named governess of the royal children, which caused a little bit of a stir at court because she doesn't really have any qualifications to be governess to the royal children.

But she's Marie Antoinette's best friend.

Therefore, Marie Antoinette is adamant that she only wants people she can trust to be around her family.

And governess is responsible for the education of the children, too.

It's not just sort of like nice auntie who just hands them sweets.

It is like teaching them Latin and, you know, how to do maths and read, you know, write letters.

Preparing them to be members of the royal family.

It did help her popularity, but because of the gap between the marriage and the first child being born, there are a huge number of rumours about who the father of each of these children is.

Okay, Kate, here's my question, because

I

feel like as a historical figure that I certainly don't know a great deal about, what I do know about her is that it's very two-dimensional and she has been given a really hard rap.

Are there any redeeming equalities to Marie Antoinette other than that she's a party girl that is very self-involved, suffered you know

a lot of losses as a mother.

Anything else going on for her that we can give her a little bit of cheerleading for?

Okay we can we can certainly try.

How about her being an important figure in the patronage of arts and culture?

Okay.

So particularly decorative arts and music.

She uses her influence to move public tastes to a more modern cosmopolitan style of music.

Though often it backfires because her preferred opera composer Gluck was her former music teacher in Austria.

And therefore, even when she tries to persuade the French to be more cosmopolitan, she's still accused of being anti-French and pro-Austrian.

She's trying to develop a more cosmopolitan theatrical and musical scene in France.

She's trying to loosen the very tight etiquette at court in her own way, trying to modernise things a little bit.

She sets the agenda in the theatre.

she certainly sets the agenda when we come to fashion as well.

Yeah, hugely so.

And what about politics?

You know, Louis is the king, but he's not renowned for being this sort of great thinker, this great man of power.

You know, he likes clockwork, that's his hobby.

Does Marie sort of quietly start running the show, or is she happy?

So, initially, initially, no, though she is an important figure at court, and largely because Louis XVI doesn't take a mistress.

So, the way that the French court had developed over the 18th century was that the mistress of the king was the one who had the king's ear and could be the one to sort of get favours and advantages from.

Because Louis isn't interested in taking a mistress, people expect Marie Antoinette to gain them favours, but she has a very fine line to tread because she can't be seen to be

overstepping her mark, exactly.

Her role as consort, her role is to bear children.

So she's in a slightly awkward position and accused of meddling because there isn't anyone else to take the flack.

When Louis XV was king, his various mistresses

were the ones that got the gossip and the attention of the scandalmongers.

And because there isn't anyone to deflect attention, it all falls on Marie Antoinette.

So she's effectively queen and mistress because she has the king's ear.

So it's all concentrated down onto her.

The part that comes with being queen, the having to receive foreign dignitaries and that side of the role, she's not really particularly keen on.

She'd rather be with her friends.

Yeah.

And that's where all the power is.

Yeah.

That's where if you have the ear of the foreign dignitaries and if you have the, you know, if you're able to position yourself in a way where you are both sort of benign but also

you know listening in, that's quite a useful thing to have if you want to have a bit of power.

We need to talk about Amar Antoinette and fashion.

She's renowned for it.

There's a new exhibition coming to the VA Museum soon about her sort of amazing clothes.

Jen, do you know how many new dresses she ordered per year from her favourite dressmaker?

Oh, I'm imagining in their hundreds.

Yeah, it was, it was 300.

300 a year.

300 a year, brand new dresses.

So that's almost a new dress for every single day.

Yeah.

I mean, some days she's just wearing the same dress twice.

What a slob.

Can you imagine wearing a dress more than once?

Her dressmaker was Rose Bertin.

Yes.

Can you tell us more about fashion and Marie Antoinette's sort of role within it?

So, one of the things that lots of people know about Marie Antoinette is her extravagant clothing.

She was accused at the time of spending too much money on dresses, although in her defence, she is supposed to be promoting the superiority of French culture.

She represents the nation and is keeping dozens, if not hundreds, of people employed as a result of being the face of France in that sense.

So, there is a bit of a double bind there in that she's been told she's spending too much.

But on the other hand, even in the 20th century, if a queen were to re-wear an outfit, it was commented on by

Queen Elizabeth would regularly people would say, oh, she was wearing that dress that she wore lasting eight years ago.

45 years.

Yeah, yeah.

They'd look at the fifth.

Even now,

there's still a sense that

royal women are not able to wear the same clothes without comment.

I don't remember anyone commenting about any kings wearing the same suit.

Yeah, they still don't.

So she is supposed to be representing France and representing the superiority of French culture.

Her stylist designs, Rose Bertin designs all her dresses.

300 a year might sound excessive.

It's not as bad as Josephine, Napoleon's Josephine.

She could top 900 a year.

Wow.

So that's three a day.

But again, Marie Antoinette finds herself criticised, you know, devil you do, devil you don't.

She's criticised for spending too much on over-the-top outfits, but then she's also criticised when she tries wearing simpler clothes.

So there's a really famous dress that's called the Chemise à la Rainne, which was made out of white muslin rather than French silk.

And it's seen by the standards of the time as a really casual garment.

The formal French court dresses, you've got the tight corsets, you've got the giant skirts.

This is much, much looser.

It's a sort of neoclassical, we're heading towards Jane Austen sort of style.

It's almost a slip, isn't it?

It's almost a slip.

It looks like an underdress.

Well, it must have looked completely bananas when you compare it to what everyone else was wearing.

They must have thought, are you wearing your night dress?

It was, yeah, exactly.

And she was painted wearing it, and that caused a huge furore because that was considered to be an indecent dress for the Queen of France to be wearing for a formal portrait.

There's a lot going on.

There's a lot going on.

There's another rumour, of course.

She was given a private sort of palace, Petit Triennant.

And there's a rumor that she goes there to sort of relax and that she she role-plays as a particular thing.

Do you want to guess what that would be, that she was cosplaying as?

Well, I imagine she'd be cosplaying as something that is very far removed from who she is.

So maybe she was cosplaying as a servant.

Oh, it's not bad, not far off.

A lady in waiting.

Very, very close.

Very close.

So this Petit Trionon was given to her by her husband, Louis XVI, and she uses it as a space where she can go.

to be with her friends.

So you could only enter if you'd been invited by the queen.

Even the king had no right to go unless she invited him there.

It's a very highly stylised pastoral setting.

So she not only has this little miniature palace, but she has a farm.

The Hamo de la Renne.

The Amo de la Raine.

She has a theatre built there so that she and her friends can put on plays.

And that leads to this rumour that she's pretending to be a shepherdess.

With to the pink sheep.

With pink sheep.

I think really that it's that she's acting in pastoral plays where she might have been a lady in waiting or a shepherdess because of the vogue for pastoral plays at the time.

And it gets twisted in the rumours because people aren't happy.

At Versailles, the king and the queen are public figures.

People can go, anyone can turn up at Versailles and go and watch them eat.

But this is a very private space.

And because they don't know what's going on there, people make it up.

Right.

And so they're saying she's cosplaying as little Bo Peep.

She's sort of, you know,

it's cutesy little pink sheep.

She doesn't know what she's doing.

She's pretending to be a real peasant girl, but of course she's the queen of France.

What's she playing at?

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And meanwhile, another huge scandal breaks out, this one involving a very famous necklace.

It's called the Diamond Necklace Affair.

What happens?

A con artist tries to persuade the former French ambassador to Vienna to buy a necklace to get him back into Marie Antoinette's favour.

This is a a necklace that Louis XV had ordered for his mistress but never bought.

And Marie Antoinette had turned it down.

The former French ambassador Roan thought that it was a good way of getting back in the Queen's good books, buys it, and then finds that he's been completely duped by the con artist who's taken the jewels and done a runner.

Yeah, and he's hired

an actress to perform as the Queen, right?

So there's a sort of con in there.

And poor Marie Antoinette's sort of left going, hang on, what?

I've never even heard of this guy.

Yeah, the Queen, he, yeah, so Rohan thought that he was meeting the queen when he was actually meeting a look-alike sex worker.

Right.

And everyone believed that that was entirely plausible that he might meet the queen in the gardens of Versailles at night.

And therefore, nobody thought that that was anything out of the ordinary.

So far had her reputation slumped by then.

Oh, dear.

Easily confused.

Yeah, Jen, do you feel sorry for Rohan being duped by this actress performing in the garden at dusk, I suppose, in the dark?

Do I feel sorry for him?

I do feel sorry for him inasmuch as he went in good faith and he thought he was speaking to the queen.

I always feel like whenever anyone is a victim of fraud,

I feel sorry for them, even if it's like, come on, dude, what are you talking about?

Exactly.

And Marie Antoinette is the victim of the fraud biggest of all.

Yeah.

Because everyone thinks that she orchestrated it.

And she'd already turned down these jewels.

Twice.

And she could have had the king buy them for her.

No problem.

She felt that they were too expensive and that wasn't an appropriate expense given the state of the economy.

I mean, that is the irony, is that she never wanted them.

She thought they were an inappropriate amount of money to be spent and she still still got completely hung out to dry.

Story of her life.

So here's where I think maybe she's getting a hard wrap.

Because it doesn't sound to me that within the world that she lives in, in that sort of aristocratic sphere, that she is working particularly outside of that in terms of luxury, spending a huge amount of money on clothing.

It all seems to be fitting in within the parameters of what is expected of

a queen.

Why does she get such a hard rap from the French people?

I think the key to the answer to that question is that it's not initially the French people, it's those at court that she's alienating because she doesn't want to be with any of the old guard.

She wants to be with young people.

And there's a very substantial group who are anti-Austrian, who think that Austria have somehow tricked France into this alliance and that Austria is getting a better deal out of the alliance than France is.

Even though France's economy is in the toilet,

and Austria is like the head of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which is absolutely doing very well at that point, I imagine.

Doing pretty fast.

They're buzzing.

Certainly, not struggling financially in the way that the French

economy is struggling.

So it's really the fact that she's alienated everyone at court.

That's what's got her into trouble.

And she's still seen as foreign by the French people.

Remember, the Austrians were enemies for 200 years.

You know, it's like a long-standing thing.

So she's still foreign.

She's, you know, she's not politically astute enough.

And she's been made a patsy for this sort of diamond heist.

And we start getting much more aggressive attacks on her in the media.

And we're going to now show you something pretty graphic.

In fact, Jen, I'm afraid I have to say, we're going to show you something pornographic now.

Holy moly.

And we have checked with your agent in advance.

We're not going to force this upon you without some consent, but I'm going to ask you to turn over your paper and describe for the listeners what you can see.

Okay.

Okay, that's interesting.

I can see what looks to be a...

Okay, this is going to be difficult.

It is a phallus.

And it is kind of almost like an ostrich, but the

neck...

Why are you making me do this?

The neck is a member.

And I don't mean just, I'm not talking about a member of the House of Commons.

I'm talking about a man's member.

With the legs of a horse and the tail of a horse.

of something.

It's kind of like half, it's like a half ostrich, half penis.

I can't say half, that's a third horse.

Is that right?

Yeah, I think that's what I think it's fair.

It's basically an erect penis with legs and a tail, and there's a man riding it, and Marie Antoinette is stroking the

stroking

the member bit.

Yeah, so to play on words, the French for autrouche is ostrich, and autrich is Austrian.

So that's what we get.

So it's a dick pun.

Yes, it's a dick pun.

Classy pornography, this.

So the next picture is, is it Marie Antoinette sitting on a chaise long or a sofa?

And there appears to be a man hitching up her dress.

And I can't actually see what he's doing because I don't, my eyesight is so bad.

But I imagine he's, hmm, well, it's probably.

He's having little fondles.

He's having a fondle of something.

And there's a chap who's just opened the door.

He can see what's going on.

Yeah, and we have two other images as well.

We have a scene of lesbianism and we have a threesome.

So these are.

He should have started with that third picture.

Why didn't we start with the member?

That would have really warmed me into this.

Yes, I feel like

man on an ostrich cock was probably the strong image.

Yeah, it was a bit much.

So, are the lesbians, is that Marie Antoinette as well?

Yes.

And is that her with her best friend, the governess?

Yes.

Yes, Madame de Polyak.

I don't even know these two women, but already I can tell.

These are kind of publicly printed, right, Kate?

They are

attack.

We call them pornography because that's, you know, in terms of the kind of sexual level.

But these are forms of attack against Marie Antoinette that are designed to humiliate her, to scandalise her, to say that she's horny, she's cheating on the king, she can't be trusted.

All of those things.

All of the above.

So we've both got prints like the ones that you've just looked at.

We've also got pamphlets, which are sometimes in sort of verse or plays.

From the early 1770s onwards, she's accused of nighttime sexual encounters in the palace gardens from before she's even queen.

They become increasingly pornographic throughout the 1780s.

Titles include include the uterine fuhras of Marie Antoinette, the Royal Orgy, the Royal Dildo.

She's frequently depicted in lesbian relationships with her friends, both Madame de Polignac and another of her friends, the Princesse de Lomballe.

She's often shown with Louis's brother, younger brother, the Comte d'Artois, or with the Marquis de Lafayette.

Oh, really?

Who had

the Marquis de Lafayette was

in Hamilton, yeah?

Yeah, he's in the...

Yes, I've seen Hamilton.

Yes, he's in Hamilton.

He's the Frenchman in Hamilton.

He was the French soldier who went and helped the Americans in the American Revolutionary War.

He was a teenager who went over with his money.

Right, okay.

Did they have a close friendship?

Or are they just completely?

They're just making everything up at this point.

They don't really.

Yeah,

they're picking names out of the air.

They're accusing her of infidelity.

The king can't possibly have fathered the children.

Look at that big gap.

She's unnatural.

She's got all these desires.

She's obsessed with having intercourse wherever she can with whomever she can.

The list of people she's supposed to have slept with in these pamphlets and prints is ridiculously long.

They're trying to destroy her reputation and with it, the reputation of the French monarchy.

I mean, this all happens now to women, doesn't it?

I mean, the misogyny is off the scale.

But we can see this kind of, you know,

we do this with women in the public eye to this day.

And how effective was it?

Because, I mean, this sort of stuff works.

Yeah, I think it does.

It really works.

The king tries to have copies seized and burnt, but it's very hard.

You can't control all print outlets.

Plus, you don't need many of them to survive.

You only need one to survive.

We think, again, that some of this initially is coming from the court.

to Paris, rather than it being the people of Paris creating this for themselves.

But she was cheating on the king, we believe.

What was the name of the real lover?

So, the love of her life was a Swedish officer called Axel von Faersen.

That is quite a hot name, actually.

It is a hot name, isn't it?

Immediately in my head, I'm just seeing a kind of Swede in a chemise shirt, just being like, hello.

I think the jury is still out as to how far they went.

Oh, interesting.

Okay.

I think now most people will say she probably did have a physical relationship with him.

Modern technology has allowed us to read their encoded letters and his diaries.

So he censored passages, he scribbled them out, the passages where she talks about how much she loves him.

And modern technology has allowed, with using infrared,

can see the ink beneath the scribbles out.

He really should have destroyed the letters because if they'd have got into the wrong hands, it really would have completely destroyed her reputation.

But he couldn't bear to be parted from the letters, so he kept them but hid the bits where she talks about him as the love of her life.

And what was this chap's name?

He was Axel von Fairsson.

He was a Swedish.

A Swedish officer.

He was a Swedish count, wasn't he?

And he was there at the court on behalf of Sweden.

On behalf of Sweden.

Okay, so it's an ambassador role.

He's the kind of fancy man, but all these other kind of rumours and scandals are, you know, are

false and designed to destroy her.

So you've got this kind of real rising anti-monarchist, the movement is growing bigger and bigger against the monarchy, but also personally against Mary Antoinette.

So, Kate, obviously, Marie Antoinette's political career is in the context of what will become the French Revolution, which is caused by many factors, but what do we need to know?

The state was left virtually bankrupt after supporting the American War of Independence.

Louis XVI called a meeting of the Estates-General to ask for permission to raise emergency funds, but instead they declared themselves a National Assembly.

And the people of Paris, worried that the king will suppress this new assembly, stormed the state prison, the Bastille, on the 14th of July, 1789.

And that marks the beginning of what we now call the French Revolution.

Yes, and we did an episode on the American Revolution, and we commented then that the irony that the French supporting American republicanism ended the monarchy in France.

So it is a sort of bit of a blunder, that one.

That's just a bit.

Yeah, fascinating time.

But the obvious upshot is the French Revolution comes to the palace.

And what happens to Marie Antoinette and her family and her husband?

In October 1789, a group of women marched to Versailles demanding bread and the king.

At this point, the people of Paris still think that the king can save them.

They're starving.

The king has been misled by his courtiers over in Versailles.

Bring him back to Paris and all will be well.

They're relocated to the Tuileries Palace in Paris and over the next two years face increasing demands for constitutional reform.

So the revolutionaries are trying to make a constitutional monarchy along the lines of the British system.

But Louis is reluctant to sacrifice any of the notion of kingship that he feels he's inherited from Louis XIV.

So there's a tension between wanting to be popular and not doing anything that would lead the nobility to lose any of their privileges.

And in the end, on the 20th of June 1791, the royal family try to flee France.

Yeah.

And it's been a tragic life, but this is genuinely quite funny.

So I'm sorry to make light of it, but like it really is, because the king and queen try and do a runner, and it does not go well, Jen.

I don't know much about the French Revolution, but I know it doesn't end well for these two.

How do they try to escape then?

Do they go incognito?

Of course, they do.

Of course, they do.

They disguise themselves as ordinary people.

They wouldn't know an ordinary person if it hit them in the face.

No, they wouldn't.

The first problem is that you're going to be governor.

They got lost.

So, Marie Antoinette got lost trying to leave the palace because they're trying to, they don't go anywhere in the palace unaccompanied.

This is not their normal palace.

This is the Tuileries Palace where they've been sort of rehoused by the revolutionaries.

She gets a bit lost trying to find the rendezvous point so they can actually leave.

They then stop for meals as if they've got all the time in the world.

They think once they're out of Paris, all will be well.

So they stop.

They've got a ridiculous amount of luggage with them.

They get further and further behind.

Are they in the royal carriage?

They're not in the royal carriage, though.

It doesn't actually say Royal's trying to escape on the side, but it might as well,

frankly, for the speed at which they're trying to get food.

They keep stopping for food.

They're recognised, unsurprisingly.

The king has quite a prominent nose.

But there's a famous thing that, of course, his face is on the coin.

His face is on the coin.

He tries to pay for lunch with his face.

Yes.

And the guy's like, is that you?

That's you.

And he stops to ask for directions at one point.

I mean, it's just such a hopeless attempt.

Hello, good sir.

An ordinary man.

Hello.

I'm not a king.

Where is Austria?

They're brought back to Paris.

And the revolutionaries have to pretend that they were kidnapped because it's just taken them two years to write a constitutional monarchy.

So they pretend they were kidnapped.

Which is so embarrassing that they try to rushing.

Okay.

It doesn't go well for me.

Sorry.

I mean,

do they not understand that the priority when running away is the running away bit?

Yes.

Everything else is secondary.

Honestly, these people.

Although saying that I got lost on the way here to the BBC today.

I turned left into the right and I didn't know where I was.

To be honest with you, I can't get here unless someone walks me here, so I don't know what I'm saying.

So I am the Marie Antoinette of podcasting.

Okay, so I mean, obviously, fast turns to tragedy, okay?

You know, we've had our little laugh there, but actually, we know how this ends.

The king is executed first.

And then this, in 1792, isn't it?

1793.

93, sorry.

Sorry, yes.

1793.

He's executed first.

He's accused of treason.

He's found guilty of treason.

He is executed.

That is an incredibly serious thing.

Marie Antoinette, they don't, it's not the same day, it's not the same week, and so they clearly have a bit of a kind of pause.

So are they debating what to do with her?

There is debate about what to do with her.

They consider putting her on trial, they consider sending her into exile, they wonder about exchanging her for political prisoners.

I think part of the background to the discussion on what to do with her is the years of propaganda that have made much of her sexual appetites.

During the revolution, we get

the obsession with being anti-Marie Antoinette crystallising into attacks on the undesirability of women holding power.

So we've got a double thing going on here.

It's not just that she's queen, it's also that in the run-up to the revolution she had started taking on greater political power.

So in the end, in October 1793, she's given a two-day show trial in effect.

She's accused of orchestrating orgies, planning a massacre of the National Guards,

liaising with foreign enemies, Austria, obviously.

So writing to her brother to to say help.

Writing to her brother to say help.

And the one that, the only one that really triggers a response from her in the court is that she's accused of incest with her son.

Okay.

I mean, Sabit, look,

she hasn't behaved brilliantly.

She's very spoiled and has literally done nothing for the people of France.

However, she's not guilty of any of those things.

I mean, she's guilty of being a product of a class of people that are completely, you know, have no sort of real idea about how the French people live.

On the day that she's killed, is that the day that only

Marie Antoinette's life is taken, or is it do they do these sort of mass kind of killings where it's like, well, we're going to kill you in the morning and then we'll kill you in the afternoon?

Yes, it's a bit of a conveyor belt by

1793.

You see, this is the thing, all those people that were putting out all of this stuff about Marie Antoinette and you know, this kind of like really indulging on how the aristocracy are have no morals and have no sort of values, value system, kind of backfired on all of them because they all got their heads taken, didn't they?

They were all killed.

More ordinary people are killed during the period of the terror than members of the nobility.

But her best friends are killed, aren't they?

Her best friends are killed in, well, no, Madame de Polignac escapes France.

Oh, does she?

She escapes.

Lamballe.

But the Princesse de Lamballe is killed and then mutilated

and her head put on a on a spike.

And they're they're stopped.

Not all of the revolutionaries are completely bloodthirsty.

There are some that prevent the pike with the Princess de Lambar's head on it being taken to Marie Antoinette.

They wanted her to kiss her friend.

But they were actually, the revolution was stopped from doing that.

But that was only after they'd mutilated her body and cut her head off.

They seem to hate women more than men.

Yeah.

It doesn't sound like

the men, including the king, got as bad a rap as.

And um, no, I mean, you're right.

I think you are, you are right.

And her children, the two surviving children?

The son

became

Louis XVIII on his father's death.

The king is dead, long live the king.

So child became king.

He dies shortly afterwards in prison, having been

looked after in inverted commas by the revolutionaries.

Sure.

Not a well child.

He dies.

Marie-Thérèse will survive.

She will become the Duchess of Angoulême

and will help Louis's younger brother become Louis XVIII.

Napoleon famously said of her, she was the only one in the family to wear trousers.

She does live a full adult life.

She's the only one who does.

So Marie Antoinette was executed 16th of October 1793.

And her last words, rather extraordinarily, do you want to tell us what they were, Kate?

Allegedly.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Do we know how much truth there are in actually her words?

Allegedly, she said to the executioner, pardon me, sir, I did not do it on purpose after she stepped on his foot.

Oh, that's heartbreaking.

Yeah, It's really

so heartbreaking.

Yeah, so she was executed.

Do you want to guess how old she was at this point on her death?

What are we?

17?

I don't say she's like young.

What is she, 20, 20 in her 20s?

No, she's 37.

Oh, she's 37.

Oh, my gosh.

It's not, I mean, we met her as a kid coming to France at 14.

Oh, yeah, she's only 14 when she came.

So, I mean, 37 is still no age, really, is it?

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, well, I'm well past it.

Yeah, so that's why I keep saying sorry.

I mean, 37's young.

young.

Whippersnapper.

No, it's horrible, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's, I mean, extraordinary life.

I think, you know, as you said at the beginning of the episode, Jen, a lot of the things we know about her are not true, but actually a lot of the things that the French people knew about her were not true.

It's, you know, she was the victim of scandal and rumour and gossip.

Yeah, and a very deliberate and successful smear campaign,

which really undid all of the nobility to a degree and the French court as a whole.

It's weird, isn't it?

How the more you learn about these people, the more you give them like a third dimension.

I can see that she's an incredibly flawed human being, but also she was a product of what the court created.

Thank you.

I really enjoyed that.

I thought it was fascinating.

The nuance window!

Well, it's time now for the nuance window.

This is where Jen and I dress up like shepherdesses for two minutes with our pink sheep while Professor Kate takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about Marie Antoinette.

I know.

My stopwatch is ready.

Kate, take it away.

It can be tricky to untangle myth and reality with Marie Antoinette, because what we know largely comes from things others wrote about her rather than from her own words.

Opinions then and now are contradictory.

Was she a monster or a martyr?

Was she thoughtless and frivolous or a scheming villain?

Was she depraved or a devoted mother?

Did she bring down the French monarchy with her extravagance, or is she a proto-feminist influencer and role model?

Versailles was a palace of mirrors and multiple reflections.

Marie Antoinette reflects back at us us our own biases, so to different people she will mean quite different things.

You'll have to make up your own mind, I'm afraid.

It is important, though, to distinguish more clearly between the teenage Marie Antoinette and the person she was 20 years later.

Ill-prepared to become queen aged 19, she did end up taking on more political responsibilities when Louis was paralysed by depression and indecision.

But the task of modernising the monarchy and solving the economic crisis without impinging on the privileges of the nobility was an impossible one.

During the revolution, she tried to save the monarchy, writing a huge number of letters to revolutionaries as well as her brother on the throne in Vienna to try to effect change.

She would have seen herself as acting in France's interests, when in fact it's the point in her life when she's most actively working against them, just another of the many contradictions that make up her life.

Her most tangible legacy is the impact she had on interior design, one of her most enduring passions.

Furniture and objé d'arts from this period are usually labelled Louis XVI, but it would be much more accurate to call them Marie Antoinette style, as her interest in fabrics and furniture very much marked the late 18th century.

Her taste is now appreciated as elegant and refined, a marketable brand for everything from tea to tote bags.

Our collective fascination with her riches to rags story shows no sign at all of fading.

And given that powerful women in society are still seen with suspicion, and that tensions between privacy and celebrity have taken on a new urgency in a social media age, Marie Antoinette's life will undoubtedly continue to be relevant and generate debate for years to come.

Two minutes on the dot, incredible timekeeping.

Wow, look at that.

That's impressive because I've spread up because I was about five seconds over when I practiced it yesterday.

Oh, well done, Kay.

Thank you so much.

I mean, that's fascinating.

The idea of the immutability, the fact that she was all things to all people.

Really interesting, Jen, isn't it?

Yeah.

And also the parallels about celebrity now,

you can see them clearly, especially with social media.

I write a book about the history of celebrity.

I described her as a celebrity, as an early celebrity.

Definitely.

And with the, because the printing press existed and think people were able to get things out so much easier.

I mean, it was much easier to augment your celebrity, but it was much easier to pull you down as well.

Exactly, exactly.

People will believe what they want to believe.

And still do.

Yeah.

So what do you know now?

Okay, well, it's time now for the...

So what do you know now?

This is our quickfire quiz for Jen to see how much she had learned.

I mean, Jen, you've been writing some serious notes.

I've written some really serious notes, but really right at the beginning, Kate, I just want to let you know, I forgot to start the notes at the beginning.

Listening and then went, I've got no idea what you've said then.

But look, let's see what I've got.

Okay, we've got 10 questions for you.

We've talked about an awful lot, and maybe some of the earlier stuff may be not so well covered in your notes.

But let's see.

Question one: What was Marie Antoinette's name when she was born?

Maria Antonia.

It was.

She was Archduchess Maria Antonia.

Question two: Name two ways that Empress Maria Theresa tried to make her teenage daughter more appealing to the French.

Well, she had braces on her teeth.

Yeah.

And she had her ballet lessons so that she could glide into calls.

Actually, glide like a swan.

Question three, what ominous event happened during Marie Antoinette and Dauphin Louise's wedding celebrations?

Well, there was a fireworks display that went horribly wrong at the Temple of Hyman,

and over 130 people were killed in a crush.

Well done.

That's very good knowledge.

Question four, name one theory about why the couple did not consummate their marriage for seven long years.

Something to do with poor Louis XVI's foreskin.

Yeah, or something like that, yes.

Yes.

Or something like that, a medical, a medical situation.

Or they were just doing it wrong.

They were probably doing it wrong as well.

They didn't know what they were doing.

Question five: How many new dresses did Marie Antoinette apparently order per year?

300.

Yes, a perfectly sensible number.

Question six: Can you name one of the supposed sexual partners Marie Antoinette was depicted with in pornographic pamphlets?

Her best friend,

and her name was Madame de Pognac.

Polygnac, yeah, very good.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's also the brother of the King Lafayette and the Princess de Lamballe.

Question seven: According to gossip, how did Marie Antoinette supposedly relax at the Poutitouen Palace?

She would cosplay as a shepherdess shepherding pink sheep.

That's very good and doing plays, we think, yeah.

Question eight: What jewellery-based scandal was Marie Antoinette tied to in 1785?

She was tied the diamond necklace affair.

She was.

1785.

Someone should make a movie.

Question nine: What was the name of her Swedish lover?

Do you remember?

The lover for life.

Axel Axel.

Hang on a second.

Let me check my notes.

Axel von

van...

I can't read my handwriting.

Von Fet

Far.

I don't know.

Farqua, yeah.

Let's call him that.

Axel von Farquhar.

Lord Farquhar from Scrap.

I literally can't read my handwriting.

Yeah, I will let you have it because you clearly know the answer.

But yeah, von Thurston.

Swedish count.

Yeah, von Thurston.

This for a perfect 10, Jen.

Okay.

What were Marie Antoinette's supposed last words?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

That's right, for stepping on the executioner's foot as he was about to execute.

Well done, Jen.

Never in doubt.

10 out of 10.

Well done.

Well, I've really enjoyed it.

Thank you.

Well, thank you so much, Professor Kate.

Thank you, Jen.

And listener.

If you want more from Jen, we've got episodes on Emma of Normandy.

And of course, we did Hernan-Cortez and Melinsin.

That was very interesting.

And for more controversial French queens, listen to our episode on Catherine de' Medici.

That one was a fun hoot.

And remember, if if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends.

Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds in the UK to get episodes 28 days early.

But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.

We have the incredible Professor Catherine Asprey from the University of Warwick.

Thank you, Kate.

A pleasure.

And in Comedy Corner, we have the brilliant Jen Brister.

Thanks again, Jen.

Oh, what a treat, Greg.

Thank you.

And to you, lovely listener.

Join me next time as we engage in some more historical myth-busting.

But for now, I'm off to go and get my hands on my own delicious Swede.

Keep it classy, people.

I'm talking about the root vegetable.

Bye!

That's a good one.

Thank you.

Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4.

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