Edo Japan

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Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously.

My name is Greg Jenner.

I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster.

And today we are boarding our black ships and sailing back to 17th-century Japan to learn all about life in the Edo period.

And to help us distinguish our Kosode from Akimono, we have two very special guests in History Corner.

She's a lecturer in both Japanese and modern Japanese history at SOAS University of London.

She researches and teaches the rise of modern Japan with a particular focus on imperialism, ministerism and the relationship between politics and religion.

It's Dr.

Satana Suzuki.

Welcome Satana.

Thank you for having me.

I'm really excited to be here today.

We're very excited to have you.

And in Comedy Corner, he's a stand-up comedian, writer, and the winner of the Edinburgh Festival Comedy Award 2023.

Maybe you've heard him on Radio 4 or seen him on Mop the Week or Having the News For You or Live at the Apollo or the MASH Report, all those things.

But you'll definitely remember him from our episodes about Julius Caesar, Julius Kaiser, or the Indo-Civilization.

It's Ahir Shah.

Welcome back, Ahir.

Hello, thank you very much for having me back.

I'm very excited about this.

When I asked if you wanted to do this show, your face lit up with a frenzied zeal I've not seen before.

You were so ready for this.

I was first asked about this when I just finished watching Shogun and was listening to the audiobook of Shogun at the time.

In fact, I may well have been listening to the audiobook when I first got an email about it.

So I was like, right, I definitely know everything about this topic based on what I'm sure was a documentary I recently watched.

Yes, the Shogun TV series is fantastic to telly.

Historically, I think it takes some liberties.

It changes nicely.

I think that I'd assume that if the way that things panned out, if they panned out in real life like they panned out in Shogun, you'd run out of people pretty quickly.

There's a lot of boiling people in life.

But apart from that, great telly.

So I think we can say we've got two experts in the room today, which is very exciting.

I don't know very much about this period.

I'm really excited to learn more.

So, what do you know?

This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.

And for listeners outside of Japan, I suspect chances are the answer is not very much, much like me.

Maybe you've seen the Keanu Reeves historical blockbuster, 47 Ronin.

Maybe you're a video game fan and you've played Shogun Total War, my fave.

But most likely you'll know the recent TV series that Ahiya has mentioned already, Shogun.

It's based on a novel by James Clavel, which lightly fictionalises the foundation of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

And if you're a real Shogun head, maybe you saw the short-lived 1990 musical, also based on Clavel's novel.

But what's the true story behind this brilliant TV show?

What did samurai really get up to?

And just who was the dog Shogun?

Let's find out.

Right, Ahir.

You have seen Shogun, so you know the answer to this question.

Probably.

When did the Edo period start?

So

I think you also did say at the beginning of this thing that we're talking, yeah, 17th century Japan.

Well, I guess, as you said, the Tokugawa Shogunate started.

And I think that is Edo the sort of name that was getting to what we now call Tokyo?

Was called Edo at the time?

I'm going to go

1647.

Well the show is set in 1600

and as Satana we start the dynasty a tiny bit later.

We start it the same year that in England or Britain we start the Stuart era 1603.

So how long is the Edo period?

Why did we start it there?

So the Edo period lasted from 1603, so that's when Tokuga Iesu was appointed shogun by the Emperor,

to 1867, that's when Tokuga Yoshinobu, that's the last shogun, returned the London register to the emperor.

So 260 years, something like that.

I'm not really good at math, but something like 260 years.

So it's a long time, right?

And this is a time of warfare, instability.

This is not a peaceful era.

No, it's not.

The Edo period was preceded by a period of constant warfare and instability for about 100 years, from like 15th to 16th centuries, which is usually called a warring state period or sengoku jirai in Japanese.

But then between 1560 and 1582, Odanobunaga, that's one of my favorite historical figures,

I use him for some of my passwords.

Maybe I shouldn't say this.

Yeah, don't say that on the radio.

But I do.

Coincidentally, same name as my mother's maiden name.

And my first pet.

Something like that.

But anyway, he was one of the warring state daimyo, and he sort of used force to extend control over two-thirds of Japan.

And then he even overthrew the Muromachi government of the Ashikaga shogunate.

Unfortunately, one of his subordinates, Akechi Misuhide, he assassinated Odanovunaga in 1582.

And after that, his other subordinate, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he rose to power.

So Hideyoshi rose to power in 1590.

He didn't last long, but he was quite impressive.

Is that fair?

Yeah, yeah.

He was very impressive because he was born into a peasant family, but he sort of worked

his way up by being a really good sort of strategist.

And also he had a really good sort of communication skills.

That's very important at any time in the history.

And he was also like a sandal bearer for Nobunaga.

Okay, yeah.

So he carried his shoes.

I was far too sort of in-comedian brain then, because when you said he didn't last very long, but he was impressive, I just wanted to go for a very non-radio 4 joke.

You're welcome to have a crack at it.

So Hideyoshi conquered Japan in 1590, died in 1598.

Yeah.

Who takes over from him then?

So, Toyotomi Hideori, that's Toyoto Hideyoshi's five-year-old son.

So he was left in charge, but he was managed by, you know, a group of five regions.

I am very, very unlikely to conquer Japan.

However, if I did, and eight years later I died and de jure if not de facto rule passed to my five-year-old son, I would be so gutted.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I've done all this effort.

Like, only eight years would suck.

Yeah, and also giving giving it to a five-year-old feels reckless to me.

I mean, my daughter is very nearly five.

If she were in charge, there'd be an awful lot of bluey-based sort of policies, an awful lot of ice cream.

The economy would fall apart quite quickly.

I'm not sure it's going to work.

So a Council of Regents are ruling on his behalf.

Yeah.

But presumably, this is not a stable regime.

No.

People died much earlier in that time, like maybe 40 or 50 years old.

So they had to mature really quickly.

So five years then,

maybe 10, 12 years old.

I mean, still.

Like,

my wife has a 12-year-old cousin.

I think he's great.

I think he's very, very clever.

He's very sharp and everything.

Would I entrust him with all of Japan?

Perhaps not.

Okay, so the five-year-old is the new shogun, but not really.

A council is put in charge.

And one of the members of that council is a rival of Hideyoshi.

That's right.

Yeah.

One of the regions was Tokugawa Ieyasu.

Sorry, I can't pronounce Japanese names

properly.

But anyway, he was a former rival of Hideyoshi.

And long story short, he decided that he wanted PA for himself.

So

he thought that he was more qualified to unify Japan than anyone else.

Looking back, he was right.

So yeah, in 1600, at the Battle of Sekigahara, Ieyasu sort of destroyed the forces loyal to the Toyodomi family.

I don't think that there's a lot of backing yourself that goes into it when you're just saying, I reckon I could nail this better than a five-year-old.

Like, if someone said to me that they didn't think they could do that, I'd be like, you've got a confidence problem.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I'm not talking like American levels of self-confidence or that sort of thing.

Let's not get out of hand.

But you've got to believe in yourself a bit, you know?

It's true.

Yeah.

So he wins the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600.

Sekigahara, yeah.

And that is the big win win that establishes the beginnings of the Edo shogunate.

Yeah, in 1603, he was actually named a shogun.

The official title was Sei Tai Shogun by the Emperor.

So that sort of granted him legitimacy to govern the country.

And this is when we start the Edo period, 1603.

Yeah, sort of official, yeah.

I have to say, Satana, you mentioned the Emperor.

He sounds like he should be in charge.

Surely Emperor outranks Shogun.

Well, Emperor didn't actually have any sort of political power.

He was mostly politically aloof, so kind of out of this sort of, you know, government business.

Right.

Okay.

So Tokugawa Iyasu, named Shogun.

He is the first shogun of our period, of the Edo period.

Ahir, do you know what it translates to?

Literally in English, Shogun.

I don't know.

Or say Tai Shogun.

That's the official title.

You should know this.

I should know what.

You should know this, Arke.

Come on.

It's like

the way that you said that, like, made it feel.

Like, I briefly queried whether you had personally taught me Japanese in the past.

You said it with something, like, you said it with the authority of my mum when I miss a bit of grammar in Gujarati or something.

It's like, what are you doing?

How did I raise you?

What's going on?

No.

So I think

Shogun,

maybe that just means like warlord or something.

I don't know.

That's pretty good.

That's a good, sensible guess.

The official translation would be barbarian subduing general.

Nice.

What a succinct language.

Or you could even say barbarian subduing generalissimo.

Oh.

Oh, nice.

Classy.

So, Ahir, obviously, you've said that you haven't yet conquered Japan and you don't plan to, but if you did conquer Japan,

what would you want to be known as?

What's your go-to title?

I would want to be called the barbarian subduing general, but I would want to be like, but like in English, so some people had to say the full phrase to me every time.

Obviously, I would learn Japanese following my conquest of Japan.

Right.

But I might even do it as prep.

I don't know.

But yeah, I think that the full title, just to really feel the weight of it, you know?

Satana, who were these barbarians who needed subduing?

So in medieval times, barbarians were on the northern frontier and they're called Emishi.

And that is,

there is some sort of link with Ainu people.

I don't know whether you know Ainu people.

It's the indigenous people in Japan.

So today's, you know, you know, today's Hokkaido.

but not necessarily identical.

But this title, barbarian subduing general, was a temporary title given by the emperor to the rulers or generals going on northern campaigns, so it was not necessarily a lifetime title or here at the tree.

Then in the twelfth century, when Minamoto no Yoritomo established the Kamakura Bakuhu or Kamakura shogunate

and became the shogun, the title gained more like the connotations of leader of the military class and de fact ruler.

Toku Iyasu was not the first shogun, as you you know, like we explained, but he was the first shogun of all Japan.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So that's the distinction.

So we talk about Tokugawa Iyasu as the first shogun to control all of what we call Japan.

So there have been shoguns before, but it was a divided country or there were sort of rival pans.

They're fighting with each other for 100 years.

So basically, he unified the country.

What is the relationship between shogun and emperor then?

Because we now have a supremely powerful military leader.

But what is the Emperor's power?

Does he have power?

Yeah, so the Emperor's capital was in Kyoto.

And so he lived in Kyoto, in the castle in Kyoto.

And then Shogun's capital was in Edo.

But Edo was the political and administrative center of Japan.

So during the Edo period, Emperor had an important symbolic

role, but he was essentially a prisoner in his palace.

They are not allowed to step outside of their palace.

The historical record shows only a handful of visits, most of them just visiting their own parents.

They weren't even allowed to take a walk.

Wow.

Yeah, easily.

So the shogun had to keep him happy as the legitimizer of the political power because, you know, legitimation was very, very important to Japanese at the time, and I guess today as well.

But also control and restricted the emperor via the law.

Whatever power emperor had was something like he could conduct court rituals and also he could bestow court ranks of the samurai classes, something like that.

So he was given by him by the law.

That's not bad.

Satana, you've mentioned the samurai, you've mentioned a couple of people.

Actually, who are the social groups in society at this time?

We have the elite groups, don't we?

So we should start with that.

Yeah.

Yeah, so society was divided into basically four social classes.

So you have the samurai elites and then you have peasants, artisans, and merchants.

And you know, at the top of the elite group were the daimyo, the feudal lords, who are rulers of domains, or Han in Japanese.

And the number of domains sort of fluctuated, but they are about 260 by the end of the period.

Right.

And they autonomously governed these domains, or Han.

But every alternate year, they had to live in Edo, and their families were essentially hostages of the tokuga to ensure their loyalty to the Shogune.

So the family had to stay in Edo and the Lord, Afero Lord, they had to sort of travel between their own domain and Tokyo.

Sorry, not Tokyo, Edo.

There really is a lot of holding families hostage going on.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, what I love about this show is that you start to pick up themes.

We do love a hostage.

We did one last week with Robert Bruce.

Oh, it is.

We love a hostage situation in this

The daimyo are kind of regional rulers, then, is that fair?

That's right.

Yeah, no, domain rulers.

Domain.

Han, yeah.

So this kind of carrot and stick strategy was called Sankinkotai and was introduced by the third Shogun, Tokuga Iyamitsu.

But it was kind of a clever way of controlling people, I say.

You could divide daimyo, the feudal lords, into sort of broadly three categories.

So Shinpan, who are Tokuga family and relatives, and and then Hudai Daimyo, that's Tokua's closest allies, even before the Battle of Sikikahara in 1600, if you remember that.

And then Tozama Daimyo, they're like former enemies who allied

with Tokuga after the Battle of Sikikahara.

From my point of view, growing up, I knew a lot about ninjas and samurai, but actually, I didn't really.

So, what do you think of when you think of samurai?

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think the image that the image is the image that everyone has in their head, you know, like the armor and the swords and these sorts of things.

I think that it's like a hereditary thing or a family thing.

So it's like it's sort of like nobility, I guess, works, it has worked in lots of places historically,

where

there's like a hereditary is linked to like your family or a house or whatever, but it comes with its own set of particular duties, but also its own particular set of privileges, such as basically being able to do whatever you want to anyone who isn't a samurai.

Satana, is that a good summary?

I guess, yes.

I mean, they were elites.

They're not commoners, right?

But they're not rich.

Is that, I mean,

where do they sit in the kind of the wealth-power ratio index?

Well, power and wealth...

don't necessarily go into you know in hand to hand but but especially towards the end but the hierarchy was that the samurai class, that's the elites, that's at the top, like maybe six, seven percent of the population, and then we have peasants, artisans, and merchants, and they are actually registered as commoners.

So they're the commoners.

And samurai basically means warriors, but Edo samurai are different to

how they are thought of now because you know at the time of peace they don't fight, right?

Right.

Yeah, and then they're often sort of administrators who are like paid salary in, you know, with rice stipends.

So they're like salary emails.

So you just become a civil servant.

Yeah, something like that.

Because you don't have to.

My wife's a samurai.

Amazing.

They're just slicing their way through mountains of paperwork.

Yeah.

Also, this is all very much making me think, you know, those memes where people are like, oh, imagine like, you know, you're back in the Roman Empire and you're like a general who's leading everyone into battle and like getting great glory and everything.

I'm like, no, absolutely.

You're a subsistence farmer who dies in their mid-30s of an illness that would be immediately curable in the contemporary world.

And so anytime I hit, like, oh, and this is what the Daimyo did, and the Shogun did, and the Samurai did, I'm just like, right, am I a peasant, an artisan, or a merchant?

It's one of the three.

There's no way.

Yeah, so artisans are craftspeople.

They're making things.

Peasants are farmers and then merchants are selling?

Yeah, so merchants were like merchants, really, yeah.

So officially at the bottom of this, you know, hierarchy, the social system.

But, you know, they're often sort of despised for handling money.

I don't know why people do that.

I like money.

I mean, you can't do anything with money.

I mean, I don't love it, but like

I'm being paid £8,000 to be honest.

Oh, really?

You get more than me.

But in reality though, many became very, very rich and very wealthy.

And they sort of started to exert power and influence at the end of towards the end of the turqa, you know, because the commerce and transportation develop and they have more jobs, right?

But samurai, on the other hand, especially lower-ranking samurai, they became very, very impoverished towards the end.

But they had to sometimes pretend that they had money.

And even though they're like really, really hungry, they had to pretend that they were full by like sort of using toothpick to see oh yeah I'm full but actually they are starving right okay so it's not to lose face you would have yeah something like that let's talk more about how much you know we talked about 80% of the population are peasants who's paying taxes how do taxes work Ahi has already mentioned taxes how does that system work because domains were governed autonomously Yeah, taxes were also paid at the regional or village level.

So villagers, leaders, they had to be educated.

You know, they should be able to

be good at math and they should be able to read.

So they became really educated.

And

in fact, education and literacy rates increased across the period.

And the different data showed sort of different numbers, but the literacy rate was somewhere between 50 to 70 percent.

Wow, that's pretty high.

That's very, very high.

Yeah, it's pretty high.

I mean, even the lowest is 50 percent, maybe 40 to 50 percent.

I don't know.

I mean, I can't sort of determine what is right, but it's pretty good, isn't it?

Yeah, and it's really, really, yeah, compared to the other parts of the world, it's pretty good.

But then, of course, males' rate was higher than females.

Right.

You know, yeah, like elite men

studied classical Chinese, like, you know, samurai, their literacy rate was really, really, really high, obviously.

But whereas lower classes learned hiragana, the, you know, the phonetic writing system.

I don't know whether you know the Japanese system, but yeah, yeah.

And the population, too, between 1600 and 1720, something like that, was estimated to have doubled.

But later in the period, the population growth sort of stagnated, so it's sort of stopped.

It plummeted every time famine hit Japan.

Three big ones during the period.

The tempo famine was like lasted for about several years and everybody was like starving and so many people dead.

Yeah, I think it's also super interesting that there was sort of class stratification on what sort of script you would use.

So if it's like commoners have like a particular alphabet, and it's just like really weird to think that like, right, if you're a basic rate taxpayer, you can only use comic sans.

But I like comic sans.

Yeah, if you're a higher rate taxpayer, you get Times New Roman.

Yeah.

And there's a Garamond for additional rate.

Garamond for the Daimyo.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Only the Daimyo.

That's really interesting.

But Satana, you said in the second half of the Edo period, which we're saying is 265 years or so.

In the second half of that period, the economic sort of patterns change and there's a sort of decrease in population or there's a slowdown.

What happens at that time then?

So

it's because of this development of commerce and transportation.

It was really kind of really vigorous.

And

of course, it depends on the region, but some countryside industries really, really flourished, like sake.

You like sake?

I like sake.

Yeah, I'm outsake.

And silk and cotton and ceramics and things like that so it was really really vibrant and many of these workers in the countryside were females actually um but some were more sort of fortunate than others you know some depending on their economic situation uh the fortunate ones had better options like becoming managers and things but those with contract work sometimes led to you know young women leaving home to work in uh as seasonal or long-term workers something like that So, that was life in the kind of rural areas, I think.

We heard there were issues with the economy slowing down and the rise of wage labor.

Ahir, I want to turn to you and ask you about city life, actually.

So, what do you imagine of the Edo period and the cities in Japan at this time?

Again, I'm listening.

I'm going off a documentary that I recently watched, all right?

But I think that if you were,

let's just say, at random, a 17th-century naval explorer who landed from England on a Dutch ship, you would be really struck by both the size and cleanliness of the cities relative to those you were used to in your native Europe.

I think that's a very fair answer.

And of course, that is a, I mean, the character in the show is not a real character, but it's based on a real guy, William Adams.

So

there was an English pilot who arrived in Japan.

We call this the Edo period because of Edo the city, which was huge, wasn't wasn't it, Satana?

Yeah, I mean city was really growing and the samurai became mostly city residents and things.

And

not just Edo, but Osaka, Kyoto, were like growing as well.

But like you said, the biggest of all is Edo, which was originally a really small castle town, but by 1720, early 1700s, it had already reached a population of one million, apparently.

Yeah, this marked the largest city in the world at the time.

By population, Tokyo still is the largest.

And Osaka was the biggest commercial hub, of course, you know, with many rich rice merchants and things.

But there was a shift later in the period to rural industries, which led to the declining economic power of some urban areas.

And there's a period also a little bit of moral crisis?

Towards the end, yeah, because you know, you can sort of see the visible collapse of the Tokuga Shogunet, and also, you know, things become really sort of blurred, you know, the boundaries.

So sometimes I didn't mention this outcast group of Etai Hinin.

You know, they kind of

sort of started to pretend like commoners, rich commoners with like many concubines and things.

And so that was sort of possible then towards the end.

Yeah.

I mean, economic decline, boo, but I don't know anything about the history of economics, so I'm going to move on to the stuff that I like.

And that's why you're not being paid £8,000.

So let's talk more about culture and entertainment in Edo, Japan.

Ahi, what do you think are the go-to cultural kind of touchstones that people respect and admire?

Huge theatrical tradition

in Japan, for sure.

Musical tradition, poetic tradition,

everything.

So I would say those would be three of my guesses.

Excellent guesses.

Satana, and let's talk about theatre.

So Eroculture was really, really thriving, especially those things like theatre, but mainly sort of three major things.

So kabuki, you might know.

It's a traditional theater with a dramatic performance with dance.

And then bundaku, that's a puppet theater

involving like two-thirds life-size puppets controlled by three men with musicians and singer actions, you know, chanting a narration.

And then no.

Do you know no?

No, I don't.

It was, like you said, musical.

It was like

a musical.

but less lively, and not lively, less,

I don't know, nosy.

I don't know.

But anyway, so it's like a musical.

Performers wear like masks and sings and dance to musical instruments.

And history or patronage of Noah theatre went right back to Hideyoshi, meaning it was closely embedded with the lives of the elites at the time.

You were often expected to patronise the arts.

Yeah, and they often had theatres in their own palaces and houses.

That's right.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Some even performed themselves.

Oh, wow, okay.

Yeah.

And how long does a play last?

Is it two hours with an intermission?

Well, it could be two hours, but sometimes it could last for days.

You know.

That's too much culture.

If somebody loves it so much.

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So the fifth shogun is called Tokugawa Tosanayoshi.

Tsanayoshi.

Thank you.

Sorry.

Sorry.

He was a huge fan of no theatre.

That's right.

But he was also a big fan of something else.

He was called the dog Shogun.

I hear.

Do you know why?

I'm going to go right ahead and guess he was into dogs.

He was.

It was a pretty straightforward nickname.

He's really into dogs.

He passed animal animal rights legislation.

So he was really like protected animals, which is quite rare, I think, in history.

We don't normally in the 17th century people are killing animals horribly.

So that's quite interesting.

But he loved theatre and it led him to do some quite unconventional things.

You mentioned before, Ahir, about samurai being people becoming samurai.

Satana, he he loved theatre so much that he gave actors samurai status.

Yeah, yeah.

To nearly like a hundred actors something.

Whoa.

So that he could keep near them, you know, like so they could just perform whenever he wanted.

And that was really, really unprecedented.

You know, it's a huge deal, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I mean, because you know, actors often sometimes despised

socially, but he kind of raised.

It's not stopped.

It's global.

Actors or performers, I would say.

Yeah, yeah.

Particularly comedians.

I hate comedians,

they're the worst.

So the dog Shogun apparently performed a no dance for his mother on her deathbed.

Oh.

I mean, it feels like an awkward situation that.

My favourite fact about Sonoyoshi, the only thing I knew about him before this podcast is that he accidentally had a very nice chat with one of the merchants that Satana was telling us about, one of these very rich people from low status.

And he was chatting to them, thinking they were nobles.

He got incredibly furious about it and passed laws banning ordinary people, commoners, from wearing the beautiful kimono patterns gorgeous silks and robes he made them only wear simple kosode robes so very simple so it's a call it's called a sumptuary law so it's a fashion law but ahir do you know how people got around this ban

so the ban that they couldn't wear particular patterns yeah uh on the did they like just like tilt them 45 degrees or something like that

so it's just like walk with a slight uh slightly to one side it's a good guess.

No, what they did apparently is they would wear their beautiful clothes underneath.

They'd wear their simple cosodet over the top and then they would flash their friends with the good stuff.

Just open up the robe, little flash, look at that, look at what I got.

And then wrap it back up.

So it was basically like a primarch jumper,

but then underneath it, you've got this like shirt made of gold.

Okay, so there we go.

So they're flashing their mates.

So alongside theatre, alongside clandestine fashion crimes, what other arts and cultural activities are important in Edo, Japan, Satana?

A visual art I want to think about?

Yeah, so woodblock printing became very popular because it could sort of publish literature and art very cheaply, en masse.

So this rising commercial printing coincided with the rising literacy rates as well.

And in terms of art, the most significant is ukioe.

You might have heard of it.

Like it's literally translated as floating world pictures, which is historically, culturally, and you know, artistically, very, very significant.

You know, because historically, due to mass production, people were able to access art easily and cheaply.

And also, you know, they could preserve traditional culture like this, too.

And culturally, it made it possible to have a vivid glimpse into Edo culture.

You know, people can see that from fashion, like you said, to leisure activities like kabuki and sumo wrestling and tea house and also brothels.

Right.

Artistically speaking, you know, Ukioe achieved remarkably sort of detailed and vibrant colours and complex compositions and had a huge impact on Western artists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

So that style, you said yukiyo-e, is that right?

Ukiyo-e.

Ukiyo-e.

Ukio-e, yes.

Ukio e.

And we call them floating world pictures,

which is a beautiful phrase.

And we can show show you one out here.

You've probably seen it before, because it's a very famous image.

It's called The Great Wave Over Kanagawa.

It's by an artist called Hokuzai.

What I like to do is I wear a t-shirt with that on it, and then underneath the t-shirt, I have the actual woodblock.

You're getting around the sumptuary lore in the best possible way.

I mean, for listeners who don't know this piece of art, it's an incredibly famous piece of art.

It's on laptop screens, it's on covers, it's university bedrooms, if you want to show off to your mates mates that you're cultured.

It's a beautiful, gorgeous blue and white wave.

It's almost a sort of tidal wave, isn't it?

But it's such a distinctive image.

And Hokosai is representative of this art form.

Is that fair?

Yeah, definitely, yeah.

But you also, probably Unicuro produces t-shirts like this too.

So that slightly brings us on actually to something I wanted to bring up next, actually, is Edo Japan's relationship with the wider world.

Because obviously, Japan is a series of islands.

Ahir, what do you know of Japan's attitude towards foreign traders and missionaries in this time?

My understanding was that basically during the Tokugawa shogunate, with the exception of like certain sort of naval trading relationships with ASIC, China and Korea,

pretty much cut off from the rest of the world, intentionally self-cut off from the rest of the world until the Meiji Restoration.

But I don't know if that's true.

That's just...

Very close, yes.

It's very.

Yeah, it's correct, really.

Yeah, so Tokuga Japan had a very sort of limited diplomatic relation with the Dutch, the Chinese, and the Koreans.

So, Dutch and the Chinese, they were sort of kind of merchants basically, were confined to this little man-made fun, sort of fan-shaped island called Dejima, near Nagasaki, and the Korean through the Tsushima domain.

Japan traded with the Portuguese and the Spaniards and allowed missionary activities, but some daimyo in southern parts of Japan were Christians too.

And rulers including Hideoshi and Iyasu restricted missionary activities and between 1633 and 1939, Tokuga Iyemis also issued a series of regulations including prohibiting Japanese people from leaving Japan and coming back to Japan, things like that.

He also banned the export of weapons and the teaching of Christianity in Japan.

But the massive rebellion in the Christian strongfort of Shimabara in 1637-68 was like the last straw.

It was a combination of economic and religious factors, but

from 1639 onwards, Japan adopted this national seclusion policy.

But that does not mean that Japan was completely isolated, Satana.

You know, the idea here, it's not like they shut the door and trapped out the world.

You know, they didn't stop the world getting in, did they?

Well, yeah, I mean, not entirely, but for one, they had the Dutch trading connections, right?

Like, and the Chinese.

But only the Bakuhu had the right to trade.

The Bakuhu means the shogunate.

So it's the military government controlled by the shogun.

You know, no other Japanese were not allowed.

So you might have this perception that Edo Japan was closed off completely or isolated, but they're actually very much aware of what was going on.

in the rest of the world.

They as in the Bakuhu.

And for example, the English couldn't re-establish trade relations because the Japanese knew that King Charles II had married a Portuguese princess.

Ah, yes, Catherine of Braganza, yeah.

And this policy of semi-isolation held until the end of the period, towards the 1850s.

Ah yeah, do you know who turned up in the 1850s knocking on Japan's door?

T'Twas I!

I have lived in this world long before any of you and will be here long after.

Normally on this show, the default answer is the British Empire.

That's normally what happens, about 80%.

Weirdly on this one, it's America.

Yeah, the United States.

Which I was not expecting.

The Americans show up in the 1850s, and it's a guy by the name of Commodore Matthew Perry, not the beloved actor from Friends.

1853.

Tell me the story, Satana.

Yeah, so

Commodore Matthew Perry,

his black ship arrived at the Edo Bay in 1853.

So the main objective is to open Japan to American trade, obviously.

You know, the US wanted a new market across to Japanese, to access to Japanese coal and also secure a safe base for its whaling ships.

And also establishing a presence in Japan was

strategically very important as one of the rising imperial powers, right?

I mean, America was still a young sort of.

So Perry persuaded the Bakahu's representatives that it would be better for Japan to sign a treaty with America than the British.

You know how much damage the British Empire inflicted on China.

You know the Orion Wars and things, right?

Yeah.

Listen, as a British Indian man, it's something that I have a passing familiarity with.

There are complex historical reasons between this face and this voice.

Okay, here we've got a picture actually we can show you.

This is by an unknown artist.

It's one of Matthew Perry's ships.

Would you like to describe it for us?

It's black.

It's a black ship.

Right.

I would describe the vibe as off.

I would describe it as

a general, like, its butt looks sad.

I don't know what the butt of a ship is called, but you know what I mean?

Like, the back bit of the ship.

And then the ship has a face,

but the face has like a big horn, like a gnawal, or

butt, a man's face who does not look like he looks pleased, but in a bad bad way.

Evil.

Yeah.

Evil pleased.

It's a beautiful image, but it does not suggest to me that Matthew Perry from Friends is being friendly here.

This is a depiction of a suspicious foreign power, Satana.

Wow,

that's the perception at the time.

And once the Americans are sort of through the door, Britain are like, well, can we come in?

We've done a deal with them, and we're good at empires too.

So the British, who else, Satana?

Yeah, so all the big boys, you know, the British, the French, and the Dutch and Prussian and sort of Russian also sent ships, you know, these imperial powers with the capital P.

Normally when one imperial power signed a treaty, more specifically in this, it is treaty meaning unequal treaty, others followed.

Ahir, if you were the government of the shogunate of Japan, how would you respond to this influx of Western powers waving treaties in your face?

You can really imagine someone standing to the side just being like, I did tell you that if you gave one, they'd all want one.

Right?

And what's happened?

What's happened?

The Ahir shogunate is very much one of saying, I told you so.

Is that right?

No, no, no.

In this, I'm the sort of like slightly harried shogun being like, yeah, I get it.

I get it.

All right.

I'm trying to be a barbarian suppressing general here.

Satana, the really interesting thing is that the shogunate at this stage consults the emperor, who for 250 years has been sort of, you know, over there somewhere in Kyoto.

But suddenly the shogun consults the emperor for his advice.

Yeah, because they panicked.

You know, it's like a national crisis, right?

Yeah, that's why they consulted emperor, which is technically unnecessary.

And also, because, you know, it was unprecedented too, because up till then, it was only a handful of toka counselors who had the say in national policies, you know, like running national policies.

And this act of asking backfired majorly for the shogunate because emperor at the time was kome, kome ten tenno kome.

He said, No,

you should just fulfill your duty as barbarian subduing general.

But in

1858, sorry, yeah, the shogunate gave into pressure and signed an equal treaty with America without imperial approval.

So that sort of angered many samurai loyalists, leading to this movement called Sonno Joi movement, Undo, that means

Sonno is revered emperor, expel barbarian movement.

Oh, good name for a movement.

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

Two different policies in one movement.

I like that.

Yeah.

It was not an anti-bakuhu movement to start with, but that sort of radically, you know, becoming anti-bakuhu too over time.

Because the shogun, his job title is subduing the barbarian, you know, and he hasn't done any subduing.

And so we've got all these domestic issues now in the 1860s, Satana.

We have foreigners showing up, but there's also problems internally in Eddie Japan as well.

Yeah.

So some of the domestic issues actually started before the Bakufu's sort of inadequate, I would say, foreign policy.

As mentioned, the commoners were already hugely dissatisfied with the shogunate, their handling of farming and things like that.

But the opening of Japan sort of impacted the Japanese economy massively, you know, like importing foreign goods and exporting large amounts of gold and things like that.

So that kind of upset the balance.

The Shogunate tried to resolve this by revaluing the currency, but that led to massive inflation and the price rise, etc.

So there are like uprisings everywhere.

So we've got famines, angry peasants in the countryside, angry people in the cities, a bunch of foreign countries parking their warships on Japan's front lawn.

Ahir, how would you solve this in the Ahir Shargonate?

I'm going to keep using that.

I'm sorry.

I'm really happy with it.

I would just be like, do you know what?

260 is a good run.

Like, how many things last that long?

Yeah.

Right.

Other than I, who of course was around in the 1850s.

Continued to be.

But

America's like nearly 250 years old.

Let's see how that goes.

You'd say what, just sort of polite like, farewell, thanks very much.

You ever go?

No, no, I don't think that I would do that.

You've got to stand up.

You've got to stand your ground.

Okay, good.

I mean, Satana, we're coming towards the Meiji Restoration, which Ahi has already mentioned, actually.

So do you want to talk us through the lead up to that?

Yeah, so the Meiji Restoration of 1868, that brought an end to the shogunate, obviously because of a combination of internal and external factors.

But before that there's also ongoing conflict over the succession of the shogunate between Inausuke and Sam Furai Daimyo, who wanted 12-year-old Tokugai Yoshitomi

and Shimazu, so the rivalry between the I Naosuke and then Shimazu Nariyakira and other Tozamadaimyo who wanted Hitotsubashi Yoshinobu.

So it was a bit of a fight going on there.

And the 12-year-old Yoshitomi was put forward because he would be controlled by the chief counselor.

You know,

it would be more easy.

Did no one go, this whole thing started

because someone tried to put a baby in charge?

Maybe let's not do that.

Five was too young, but maybe 12 is just right.

So 12 at the time is maybe 30 years old.

So it's okay.

I'm 33 years old.

And

while I don't think that I'm, you know, like the most exceptional, I'm sure that 33 years from now I hope to look back on myself now and think like, oh, what did he?

He didn't know anything, et cetera, et cetera.

But I think I know more than like a 12-year-old in the 1860s.

I don't feel arrogant saying that.

Do you know what I mean?

I think it's fine.

But your point, Saturn, is that he's a puppet who

can be controlled.

Well I would not say puppet for emperor.

You know my Japanese DNA says don't say this.

Okay, okay good.

Sorry.

Manipulated.

Manipulate.

Well same thing I guess.

Yeah okay.

So they do they choose the 12-year-old then?

Is that the decision?

Yes, yes.

But

the other one also became the...

So the 12-year-old was the 14th shogun, but the other one became the 15th shogun anyway.

So it was just a matter of timing, really.

Okay.

there's a purge of opponents there's a purge of samurai and we and we get an assassination don't we in 1860?

yeah so the this I Nausuke the who the guy who pushed the 12-year-old guy now he is renamed to be the Tokugai Iyemoji

he was purged because not just because of that but because he signed the Anaeque treaty as well so there are lots of angers around that yeah so assassination so things are going really wrong because we're back to the political violence that we started our story with really Yeah.

And you've got ongoing conflicts.

A foreigner is murdered in Japan as well.

Yes, yes.

Englishman, actually.

Oh, dear.

Because he upset the procession of the daimyo.

So, you know,

he was killed.

So, by 1866, the shogunate military forces,

it's going really wrong for them.

And when is the Meiji restoration?

1860.

January the 3rd, 1868.

Yes, that's when the raw-ranking samurai from Satsuma Choshu, Hizen, and gosh, Satsuma Choshu, Hizen, and Tosa, sorry, my students who have a go at me,

and together with certain progressive courtiers, you know, from the court, they decided to carry out this coup d'etat, like a really peaceful coup d'etat.

It's just a sort of discussion, but coup d'etat.

That, you know, the Meiji Emperor, the 16-year-old, getting older,

Meiji Emperor is the new sovereign, and they established this imperial rule.

So the Meiji Restoration was in 1868.

Okay, so the Shogun steps down, the Emperor steps up.

Yeah.

It's the Endo of the Edo.

We're out.

It's done.

Mission accomplished.

265 years.

Oh, shit.

Edo period.

Completed it, mate.

Complete it.

The nuance window.

Okay, well, that's been a fascinating chat.

It's time now for the nuance window.

This is the part of the show where Ahio and I set down our samurai swords and we sit quietly with our rice bowl for two minutes while Dr.

Satana takes center stage to tell us something we need to know about Edo Japan.

Without much further ado,

it's very incredible how long the Edo period lasted, like you said, 260 years.

And Edo, Japan thrived due to political stability and economic growth and also cultural development.

Political stability was maintained through the, I would say, effective governance of the Tokua Shogunet, you know, this, you know, carrot and stick strategy and granting autonomy while implementing the hostage system.

So I thought it was quite clever.

The shogunate maintained contact with the rest of the world through the Dutch and the Chinese, albeit in a sort of plastic manner.

So that sort of indicated that Edo Japan was still part of the international community, you could say.

But while some may argue that Edo Japan was sort of technologically, culturally, and intellectually limited and sort of susceptible to external pressure because of this long period of isolation, you can see the flourishing arts, crafts, and technologies during the Edo period.

And, you know, they're amazing, so that suggests otherwise.

And personally, I'm more drawn to the cultural aspects of the period, you know, like ukiyoe and literature, especially ghost stories.

I recommend that.

You should just read that.

It's great.

And also theatre, you know, these are like still vital components of Japanese culture today.

For example,

I don't know whether I can say this, but I'm a huge fan of manga, you know, the comic, Japanese comic.

Do you read this?

I don't know.

I still read a lot of them and spend far too much so a salary on it.

Because, you know, whenever I come across references of Edo culture, which you see a lot, it often, amazes me how

much ero culture still impacts Japan today.

Go and read manga.

Beautiful.

Thank you so much.

So what do you know now?

Well, it's time now for our quickfire quiz for Ahir to see.

Are you feeling confident about this one, Greg?

This is a, so what do you know now?

This is our quickfire quiz for Ahir to see much he's learned.

Somehow, Ahir, Ahea, you are averaging 9.75 on previous two appearances.

Can you get 10 out of 10 today?

That's the key question.

Here we go.

We've got 10 questions.

Question one: Who was the first shogun of all of Japan from 1603?

That was Tokugawa Yesu.

Very good.

There we go.

See, straight in.

Question two: What does the term shogun actually mean in English?

Barbarian subduing Generalissimo.

It does.

Fancy version.

Question three: In what year did the Edo period start?

Did the Edo period start?

I sort of thought that it was...

Yeah, I thought that it was 1603 just because that was when he became

1603.

Yep, same year as the Stuart era over here.

Question four.

What nickname was given to the fifth shogun, Tokugawa Sonayoshi, who banned posh robes for commoners, loved theater, and was into his animals?

Yeah, that's dog shogun.

Dog Shogun, which would be a great cartoon.

I want to see a dog shogun who is a dog.

Anyway, question five, name two non-elite social classes in Edo, Japan.

There were merchants and artisans and peasants.

Very good.

And warriors as well.

But yeah, excellent.

Question six.

What is the name of the type of printed art that became popular in Edo, Japan?

Oh, I think that they were like floating world, but I can't remember the Japanese term, unfortunately.

I believe it was Ukiyo-e.

That's perfect, actually.

Ukio-e, yes.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I will take that.

Question seven.

Name one of the three types of major theater in Edo, Japan.

Kabuki.

You could have one rucku and no.

Question eight, what was the one European country that was allowed to trade with Edo Japan after the Portuguese and Christian missionaries were booted out?

It was the Dutch.

It was the Netherlands.

Question nine, which American led the black ships that came to Japan in 1853?

It's Commodore Matthew Perry.

It is.

Your friend of mine.

And question 10, what was the name of the event that marked the end of the Tokugawa Shogunnut in 1868?

It's the Meiji Restoration.

outen never endowed.

Well done, Ahir.

You've broken your decimalized curse.

Well done.

And thank you, Satana, for that wonderful lesson.

Thank you.

That really enjoyable.

Listener, if after today's episode you want more from Ahir, we've got our episodes on the rise of Julius Kaiser and the Indus civilization.

And for a different East Asian story, try our episode on Tang Dynasty China.

That's a medieval story which I enjoyed very much.

And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with friends, subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an an episode.

But it's time to just say thank you to our guests in History Corner.

We have the sensational Dr.

Satana Suzuki from SOAS.

Thank you, Satana.

Thank you so much.

I had a great fun.

Yeah, it was real fun.

And in Comedy Corner, we have the always amazing Ahir Shah.

Thank you, Ahir.

Thank you.

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we restore another topic to its rightful place in history.

But for now, I'm off to go and stage a revival of Shogun the Musical, because every Shogun needs Showtunes.

Bye!

This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Annabelle Storr.

It was written by Annabelle Storr, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Nagoos, and me.

The audio producer was Steve Hankey, and our production coordinator was Ben Hollins.

It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me, and senior producer Emma Nagoos, and our executive editor was James Cook.

You're Dead to Me was a BBC Studios audio production for Radio 4.

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