Empress Matilda (Radio Edit)

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Speaker 5 Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner.
I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster.

Speaker 5 And today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fiercest of family feuds as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the Anarchy.

Speaker 5 And joining our royal court are two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian of monarchy and sexuality, specialising in medieval history.

Speaker 5 She's the author of Berengaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of Le Mans. And you'll remember her from our episode on Eleanor of Aquitaine.
It's Dr. Gabrielle Story.
Welcome back, Gabby.

Speaker 3 Great, thanks for having me back.

Speaker 5 And in Comedy Corner, she's a multi-talented comedian, actor, writer. You'll know her from the TV panel show.
She's an author.

Speaker 5 Her new children's book, Where Did She Go, is a lovely analysis of grief for kids. It's beautiful.
Plus, she has a career as a Jane Austen improv whiz in the hilarious, ostentatious improv show.

Speaker 5 She's a busy woman, and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of Your Dead to Me, including Georgian Courtship and the Arts and Crafts Movement. It's the wonderful Carriad Lloyd.

Speaker 5 Welcome back, Carrie Ad.

Speaker 3 Ahoy there, Syrah.

Speaker 3 As they said, in medieval times, yes.

Speaker 3 Good morrow upon thee. Yes.

Speaker 3 Gabby's nodding, like, yeah, yeah, that's it. Absolutely.
Absolutely. That was your classic English greeting.
Well, we do need it in Anglo-French for this episode.

Speaker 3 A bonjour sire.

Speaker 3 Sama.

Speaker 5 Now, Carrie, together we have done Agrippina the Younger of Rome. Yep.
A sort of Empress.

Speaker 5 We've done plenty of sort of Regency in Victoriana.

Speaker 3 We've not done medieval together. We have not gone back to medieval times.

Speaker 5 And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think...

Speaker 3 I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda, which could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Aykroyd's London. And I only remember two things from Peter Aykrod's London.

Speaker 3 And I feel like she was a really popular queen. That's what I thought about Matilda.
And that when she came out of Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her.

Speaker 3 And that the area of St. Giles was a slum.
I'm so sorry, Peter Aykroyd.

Speaker 3 It's a very large toe.

Speaker 5 It's a very big book, very heavy.

Speaker 3 I should remember more.

Speaker 5 Popular queen. Interesting.
We will address that later, I think.

Speaker 3 Okay, that's a mindset.

Speaker 5 That is not what I was.

Speaker 3 Oh, no. Well, take it out with Pete Aykroyd, not me.

Speaker 5 So, what do you know?

Speaker 5 Great, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the So Wadian though. This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.

Speaker 5 And for most of you, Matilda is most probably going to be the heroine from the Roll Doll story, more so than medieval Royal Diva, I suspect.

Speaker 5 But you may have read Ken Follett's famous mega-massive medieval novel, The Pillars of the Earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well.

Speaker 5 And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played Age of Empires 2 expansion pack, ooh, in which you can battle against Empress Matilda.

Speaker 5 But who was the real life Matilda? How did a family squabble turn into a full-blown civil war? Let's find out. Right, Dr.
Gabby, when was Matilda born? You know, where are we in history?

Speaker 5 And are we talking royal baby?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but Matilda's born around February 1102. She is the daughter of Henry I, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conqueror.

Speaker 3 Also known by another name that's not radiophore friendly, so we're keeping it at that for the moment. And her mother was Matilda of Scotland.

Speaker 3 And Matilda of Scotland is a descendant of Alfred the Great, so this gives some legitimacy. She's like, she's royalty.
We don't know loads, unfortunately, about her upbringing.

Speaker 3 So royal girls are often raised in nunneries and sometimes they're at court with their mothers.

Speaker 3 If they're at court with their mothers and they're travelling round, you know, we know that she goes to Exeter. She's in Norwich, Windsor, Canterbury.
So she does move round of the court quite a bit.

Speaker 3 Now her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured, she's very pious, so she wants to pass that on to her daughter. But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power.

Speaker 3 So we can see her with a good amount of political authority. Again, something Junior Matilda's going to pick up on.

Speaker 5 And when we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter and it's sort of sunny climes, you know, sweltering Exeter.

Speaker 5 But she went considerably further at a young age. Do you want to guess where, Carrie Add?

Speaker 3 France. Further than France.
Oh, maiui. Germany.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
All the way to Germany. All the way to Germany.
So she went to the school exchange for the Germany because the French one was full.

Speaker 5 It wasn't a school exchange programme, Carrie Add.

Speaker 3 Oh, it was to meet a man to marry. Yeah.
It was marriage exchange. Yeah.
You know what, Greg? They look down on that on schools these days.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 Often on the show, I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage clacks.

Speaker 5 How old are we talking here, Gabby?

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, how old? Eight.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. Now, look, I've heard some low numbers before on this program, but that is low.
Medievals, what is wrong with you?

Speaker 3 Officially engaged at the age of eight. I will surprise that that's fine.

Speaker 5 That's fine then.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no.

Speaker 3 I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realise that that's quite young to be. But they would like to say, like, this is going to happen.

Speaker 3 We're just making sure everyone, we've signed the the contracts yeah you can see what you're buying but they're not gonna actually get married for a while yes I mean I'm making it sound like it's reasonable

Speaker 5 she does go out there at eight right yes yes to Germany so her father is arranged with her father is Henry and she's betrothed to who?

Speaker 3 Henry. Oh another fifth.

Speaker 3 Can't call him Heinrich or something.

Speaker 3 He's also Henry V. Henrik, yeah, yeah.
Or Heinrich V. Yep, Heinrich.

Speaker 5 And he is what?

Speaker 3 And he is King of the Romans. So Germany at at this time, also, you go by the title of King of the Romans.

Speaker 3 So it can be King of Germany, King of the Romans, because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well, which is what happens to Henry.

Speaker 3 And Matilda is also crowned even before she's married. She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Mainz on the 25th of July 1110.

Speaker 3 They give her a party. Yeah, so she's, yeah, she gets.
the crown she gets the party before she even gets married so that's not a bad deal for an eight-year-old Well, it is, I mean,

Speaker 3 it's a terrible deal, but they do give her a party. And look, everyone wants a Colin the Caterpillar cake, other cakes are available.
Um,

Speaker 3 but it's still not ideal if she's going to have to marry Das Henry Fumpf.

Speaker 3 Yes, she does become queen very young, but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany, she's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future.

Speaker 3 Okay, Henry and Matilda are married in 1114, just before she turns 12.

Speaker 5 You can't even wait till she's 12.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so the problematic marriage claxon can be. Continue.

Speaker 3 Well, if you engage at 8, it's a long time before that claxon is going to stop ringing. Yeah, I need new batteries for the clackson.
Yeah, you're going to need.

Speaker 3 Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress in Peratrix Romanorum in 1117. So they're crowned not by the Pope, by the Archbishop of Breger.

Speaker 3 And therefore, this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either. But Matilda takes this on fully and is like, well no, I'm Empress now, that's going to be my title, that's what I'm going to use.

Speaker 3 She's like twelve at this point, like fourteen or something.

Speaker 5 She's probably like fifteen, I think at this point.

Speaker 5 She's suddenly demoted in eleven twenty-five.

Speaker 3 Oh what? What happened?

Speaker 5 She's you know she's been ruling Italy, she's the empress and then suddenly nope because Henry V dies.

Speaker 3 Heinrich passes all the time. Does Henry Funf is dead?

Speaker 3 Kaputz.

Speaker 3 He goes Kaputz.

Speaker 3 Henry V,

Speaker 3 oh no. So he just dies but he she's left unprotected? Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow, they have no children.
No kids.

Speaker 3 But she decides to go back to England in 1126, and she does not go back alone. She decides to take back some of the jewels with her.
So she takes two of Henry's crowns.

Speaker 5 There's another reason that she's needed back home. Her dad, King Henry.

Speaker 3 King Henry the Second.

Speaker 5 He's lost his heir. I mean, it's a huge dynastic.
catastrophe.

Speaker 3 So November 1120, the English royal court's been in France because they possess Normandy at this point so they've got control over both of those areas.

Speaker 3 Now Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships.

Speaker 3 William on the white ship which was captained by Thomas Fitzstephen and his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conqueror over in the first place. Oh it was a Nepohire.

Speaker 3 Yes, yes it was.

Speaker 3 Now as is typical Dad sets off first but William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a parte before they get on the ship and Fitzstephen claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship.

Speaker 3 So the sailors leave at night and go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 yes, the rock rips the hole, ship sinks, and all but one of the 300 passengers

Speaker 3 die, which is a butcher from Rwanda so we only have one butcher's word.

Speaker 3 Let me tell you, it was not me. They were also drunk.
So you didn't drink? No, no, no, no, no, no. I did not.
I was not the one who bought the butcher.

Speaker 5 So Matilda returning to England, kind of handy because suddenly here's an heir. Yeah.
But a woman. So.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 How do they feel about that? No. Not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point, but they've not had it in England before, certainly not in the kingdom of England.

Speaker 3 Henry decides to get married again, just in case. But he does make plans.

Speaker 3 So he does ask the bishops and magnates of England England to swear oaths three times to acknowledge Matilda as queen if he dies.

Speaker 5 Henry's not done with the marrying yet is he?

Speaker 3 Of course well she's only young right? 24. 24 but 4 and 20 as Jane Roston would say.
She's almost a spinster but not quite.

Speaker 5 So he marries her off again. Okay.
Again inappropriate aged husbands.

Speaker 3 Oh what is he like 80 or something?

Speaker 3 Other way around. Oh no he's like seven.

Speaker 5 He's a teenager so she's the cougar this time. She's How old are you, hubby?

Speaker 3 So Geoffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda.

Speaker 5 And the age gap there is what?

Speaker 3 11 years.

Speaker 3 So, you know, we're getting into another problematic marriage cracks in there.

Speaker 5 She's not impressed, right?

Speaker 3 No, she's not.

Speaker 3 You're Geoffrey, not of Monmouth. That's young Geoffrey, I know, guys.

Speaker 5 That's a good medieval name. Thank you.

Speaker 5 This is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right?

Speaker 3 Oh, Plantagenet. Yeah,

Speaker 3 so he is Count of Anjou, so Anjou is a central county in France at this point. But yeah, Matilda's not happy.
He's socially inferior because he's only a count.

Speaker 3 Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor. So she's got a teenager and a count.
It's quite a big step back. It's quite a bit embarrassing.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And does he just come over to England and just is living with her? No, she goes over to... She has to go to Anjou, I see.
So she has to go and live there.

Speaker 5 Poor Matilda, so far, has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter, her own teenage husband. And she has a baby, and that's healthy.
Second childbirth, it's very dangerous.

Speaker 3 Yes, she does think she's going to die.

Speaker 3 She makes all her funeral arrangements and everything, and you know, sorts out a will effectively because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her.

Speaker 3 But son number one is another Henry. Sure, why not? It ain't broke, don't fix it.

Speaker 3 Son number the second. Yep, son number two, the problematic one is Geoffrey, and they go on to have a third son, William, as well.
So that's it. Three beautiful, healthy boys.

Speaker 3 But yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic. Okay.

Speaker 5 So dad so far has been ruling her love life, he's married her off twice.

Speaker 5 But crucially, in 1135, meddling dad passes away, and at 1135, the king of England is dead, and all those oaths have been sworn.

Speaker 3 Three oaths, a triple lock, and you know how reliable bishops are in history. If they agree something, those bishops never let you down.

Speaker 5 So the next ruler of England, Carriad, is.

Speaker 3 Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda.

Speaker 3 Do they want it to go to her son? Are they trying to do it that way?

Speaker 5 I mean, that would make more sense, but no.

Speaker 3 No, they they just bring in some random. They always bring in some random.
Who is it?

Speaker 3 Do you want to talk us through that? Yes, yep. So Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin, Stephen.
I was sorry. Or Steve.
Stephen. Steve, shall we call him Steve first?

Speaker 3 I've heard of Stephen. Stephen LeFlois.
He is crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December.
Stephen is crowned on the 22nd of three weeks later. So literally.

Speaker 5 That is a quick party arrangement.

Speaker 3 It's even like the same age as her.

Speaker 3 You know, they have a cousin, a similar age, and the families are like well stephen got five a stars in gcs matilda stephen's going to oxford like stephen's actually become king of england yeah yeah

Speaker 3 i mean it does help talking of meddling bishops stephen's brother is the bishop of winchester which is a big

Speaker 3 but matilda when we're talking about pregnancies she has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk.

Speaker 5 So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave. It's absolutely

Speaker 3 21st century.

Speaker 3 Something's never changed, right? Oh, something's never changed.

Speaker 5 Poor Matilda. Poor Matilda.
So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B. the throne thief.
That's his hip-hop name.

Speaker 5 King Stephen. Stephen of Blois.

Speaker 3 Who is he? Yeah. So he's about 10 years older than Matilda.
Oh, he's nice. Yeah.
Yeah. Depending.
If we go with the 1092 birthday, he is the third son of King Henry I's sister Adela. So there is a

Speaker 3 family relationship there. He's a favourite of Henry I.
He grows up in the English court because his mum sent him there thinking it'd be more sophisticated and they'll learn.

Speaker 3 So he's well known by the nobles which puts him in good stead when he does

Speaker 3 nip across the channel. He's been hanging out with the lads and the men's clubs.
Yeah, I get you.

Speaker 5 And he's married to Matilda.

Speaker 3 Yes, he is. Yeah, heiress to the county of Boulogne.

Speaker 5 So Stephen is the king. Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth, thankfully.
William, yeah. And now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second, that's my throne.

Speaker 3 That's my throne. Should have been me.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So what does she do next?

Speaker 3 She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think it's time now for the anarchy. So would we call this a civil war?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think 12th century civil war. The lesser known of the civil war.
Shortland.

Speaker 3 Perhaps. But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy.
They focus on taking that first, think that's the way forward.

Speaker 3 But as we say, we get to around 1138, 1139. She's like, hang on.
Now I need to focus on taking England. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Several of the English barons, including her half-brother, Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounce their oaths to Stephen.

Speaker 3 Matilda's uncle, David, the King of Scotland, also causes problem up in the north. 1139, she does apply for the Pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested.

Speaker 3 He doesn't reply to a letter. How do you apply to a pope? You just fill in a a form.
It really sounded like she applied for a job. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yep, but no luck there. But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 1139.
And fortunately, her stepmother, Adeliza, who's at Arundel, says, oh, come here. I'll support you.

Speaker 5 Arundel's a very lovely town, very nice day out.

Speaker 3 It's got a great castle.

Speaker 5 Lovely castle.

Speaker 3 Lovely antique shops.

Speaker 5 So, Gabby, talk us through the war then, this brutal anarchy, this civil war.

Speaker 3 So, once Matilda's got to Arundel, enjoyed the castle had a few scenic walks makes her way over to bristol off to the west country because her half-brother robert duke of gloucester's there yeah so he's got people on side for her so they decide to start battling this civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start they hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne always interested in bit land people just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne yeah there are very few positive barons in history.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there we are.

Speaker 3 This kind of carries on for about two years. In February 1141, have a breakthrough.
Battle of Lincoln.

Speaker 3 Stephen is captured.

Speaker 3 So Matilda has Stephen in chains. Oh, my God.
And he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle. Wow.

Speaker 5 And she now is the queen. Yes?

Speaker 3 Yes? No, the barons don't back it, right? Come on. Nope.
Nope. Absolutely.
She's not there yet.

Speaker 3 So we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins.
Has Lady of the English stamped on the coins

Speaker 3 as like a precursor to becoming queen. And she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her.

Speaker 3 They will not let her in.

Speaker 5 But Carriad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I obviously remembered that completely incorrectly. That when I'm sure I remember him saying that she was a like that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered Matilda.

Speaker 3 Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, is popular. Oh, maybe I'll make it worse.

Speaker 3 It's the other Matilda.

Speaker 3 So that may be where Eric Broyd's coming from.

Speaker 5 It's very easy to mix in Matilda's.

Speaker 3 Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices, so she won't give Londoner special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them.

Speaker 3 They're just like, you're not coming in London. Don't annoy the Londoners, mate.
Don't annoy them. Yeah, so come on.

Speaker 3 You know, we've seen that she's had all all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here.

Speaker 5 It must have been a humiliating moment, right? The rightful queen who has won militarily, who has captured the

Speaker 3 captain, she should, by right. Sail into Westminster.

Speaker 5 And yeah, the people of London are like, get out of love, you know, you're not around it. And she just goes home.

Speaker 3 Yeah, what happens?

Speaker 3 No, so she... flees back to the West Country and, you know, where she's safe and, you know, tries to negotiate with Matilda.

Speaker 3 So we've got the Battle of the Matildas now going on because Stephen's still imprisoned. So we have the Siege of Winchester in September 1141.

Speaker 3 But Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well, Eva. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again.
Wow, this Queen Matilda's like hot on her heels, isn't it?

Speaker 3 Like powerful woman and using her political strength. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And unfortunately, Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half-brother, is captured. Oh, no.

Speaker 3 So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Matilda, give me back Robert, Stephen, Robert, Stephen, Robert. And get out of

Speaker 3 there. This is like Pat and Peggy all over again.

Speaker 3 Very equally matched.

Speaker 3 Different sides of the square, but basically the same person. And she swapped Stephen for Jacob Gloucester.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And Stephen is released and then goes back on the throne. Yeah, straight back on that throne.

Speaker 5 And then we get an even bigger disaster, Gabby. Oh, no.
Battle of Oxford.

Speaker 3 Yep, so this is 11 42 so empress matilda is again forced to flee and this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time stephen besieges the city they are sieged for three months and eventually she is forced to escape

Speaker 3 She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out of the gate. Oh that's Game of Thrones.

Speaker 5 Well it's sort of it's it's kind of camouflage right it's all sneaky sneaky so she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides to safety. So she's not captured.

Speaker 3 Is she going back to Europe at this point?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, in the movie, Escaping in the Snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right? Yeah. But in terms of the history books.

Speaker 3 Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost, she's lost her.
Yeah, she lost it, babes. It's gone.
Yeah. The moment's gone.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority. Rarely salt in the room.
Not king once, but king twice, twice

Speaker 3 yeah exactly yep if you remember her older son henry yep so he does try and invade in 1147 on in the name of his mum in the name of his wife oh it's so adorable but he does this without any money without matilda's knowledge

Speaker 3 yeah you know and then he comes back two years later 1149

Speaker 3 And that's a failure as well because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. So he doesn't have the best of luck.

Speaker 3 Matilda transfers her claim over to him and he does these little hurries over the next few years but it doesn't really get anywhere

Speaker 3 until

Speaker 3 you say because

Speaker 3 he becomes Henry II at some point and he's the start of the plantagenets right so yeah when does he so Stephen and Henry make the Treaty of Winchester agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling okay

Speaker 3 Henry is named as heir this is bad because her heir then becomes king anyway. So Stephen basically just wanted

Speaker 3 the throne for a bit. He wasn't bothered about his

Speaker 3 dynasty starting. It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job.
But then I'm going to give it to your son.

Speaker 3 He just didn't want Matilda to have it.

Speaker 5 Yeah, well, that's interesting, isn't it? Right? Is there something to that? Is Carrie Ed right? It just doesn't want a woman on the throne.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that is... potentially part of it in terms of, you know, Matilda goes over what you expect to see of women at this point.

Speaker 3 We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England, but there is the slight issue as well. They don't like Geoffrey of Anjou, they don't like Matilda's husband, they're worried about foreign influence.

Speaker 3 If

Speaker 3 she becomes queen, like what's his rule gonna be? Is she gonna like rule in her own right?

Speaker 3 They bypass that, but then they install his son who must be of the same lineage as she is, but he's still a man, but he's a man, he's a man, and that's much more acceptable to them.

Speaker 5 King Stephen died in October 1154. Henry II becomes the king.
So Matilda's son on the throne.

Speaker 5 And Matilda gets to be, what? Queen mum?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, she is a bit of a...

Speaker 5 She's sort of the Chris Jenna here.

Speaker 3 Is she kind of a mum Jenner?

Speaker 3 I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And yeah, absolutely.
She rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full time.

Speaker 3 We've got letters from the time that show that she was very politically astute. She does get involved.
She's very well respected.

Speaker 3 So, for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in 1155, and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time.
He does try later after she's died, but

Speaker 3 she still brings all her experience to the fore.

Speaker 5 So, Matilda dies in 1167 age. She's about 65.

Speaker 3 She does well.

Speaker 5 And she dies in Rouen, in Normandy.

Speaker 3 Yep, and she's very at the Abbey of Beck, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. It was where she gave birth to her second son, and it's a place that's really important to her.

Speaker 3 So, Normandy is her life, really.

Speaker 3 But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power. Yeah, she's going to end up in power,

Speaker 3 but not as high as maybe she would have hoped for. Yeah, and Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well, her husband Geoffrey, so she kind of just go down.

Speaker 3 And Henry II is the first Plantagenet king, is that right? So, she starts a dynasty, she does,

Speaker 5 yeah, and a really good dynasty in terms of

Speaker 3 definition. Yeah, yeah, the Plantagenets.
All the way up to Richard III. Yeah.

Speaker 5 The nuance window!

Speaker 5 Okay, time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Carrie Ed and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henries that we've mentioned, while Dr.

Speaker 5 Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship.

Speaker 3 So my stopwatch is ready.

Speaker 5 You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr.
Gabby.

Speaker 3 So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it.

Speaker 3 And maybe they're quite pious, maybe they focus on what we call soft power. But actually these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak.
They are very powerful.

Speaker 3 They can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights.
They work very well together as a couple.

Speaker 3 But going beyond Matilda, we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine. She brings her power from Aquitaine as Duchess and shares that with Henry.

Speaker 3 So I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power.

Speaker 3 It's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage, bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills, whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage, mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty.

Speaker 3 Women are very capable of exercising power.

Speaker 3 They do do it on a regular basis and it's not just agency it's not just something that's soft directly with matilda we don't see her leading an army at the front of it but we do see women leading armies in this period as well so i think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule not all power is vested in one man it's shared with his mum in the case of Matilda, it's shared with his wife, it can be shared with his daughters or, you know, sometimes with other men, but you know, with

Speaker 3 governors and regents and so forth as well. So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think.
They're not just there to give birth to children.

Speaker 3 They do quite well.

Speaker 5 Thank you so much, Gabby. Fascinating, Carrie.

Speaker 3 Yeah, amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Speaker 5 Listener, if you want more medieval queens with Dr. Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleanor Accatane, featuring Carriead's ostentatious castmate, Rachel Parris.

Speaker 5 For more, Carriead, obviously we've got lots of episodes with you, but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves.

Speaker 5 And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil Wars, which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War.

Speaker 5 But that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend let's call it the anarchy as a whole other thing. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.
We had the fantastic Dr.

Speaker 5 Gabrielle Story. Thank you, Gabby.

Speaker 3 Thank you, Greg and Carriad. Well done, for not throwing any chairs around.

Speaker 3 It was a very

Speaker 3 placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm.

Speaker 5 And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever-brilliant Carriad Lloyd. Thank you, Carriad.

Speaker 3 Au revoir, mon sire,

Speaker 3 as they would have said.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th-century French was actually a bit more Viking-sounding. It was much more harsh, Norman.

Speaker 3 Yes,

Speaker 5 the Caesar K's in Norman French. Anyways, can knife is sharp.

Speaker 5 Yes. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise.

Speaker 5 But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me.

Speaker 3 It's mine, all mine. Bye.

Speaker 5 Your Death of Me is at BBC Studios Audio Production for BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 3 Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 6 I'm Amanda Unucci.

Speaker 3 And I'm Helen Lewis.

Speaker 6 A comedy writer and a journalist teaming up like a pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes.

Speaker 3 Our mission is to decipher political language.

Speaker 6 Stress testing to destruction those used and abused abused buzzwords and phrases, finding out what they really mean, and looking at whether they're meant to deceive us, or to distract us, or to disturb us.

Speaker 3 And our pledge is to help you spot the tricks of the verbal trait.

Speaker 6 Look be won. This series does feature strong political language that some listeners may find an inverted pyramid of piffle.

Speaker 3 Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 6 Listen now on BBC Sounds.

Speaker 6 This little eye of mine

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