Trump vs Harvard, Nvidia export controls, how DEI killed Hollywood with Tim Dillon

Speaker 1 All right, everybody, welcome back to the number one podcast in the world, the all-in podcast. After a triumphant week last week, we had an amazing episode.

Speaker 1 Thanks to Larry Summers and Ezra Klein for joining us for the great tariff debate.

Speaker 1 Number four episode in the world last week.

Speaker 1 And man, we got a banger ready for you today. Before I get to that, a couple of quick plugs.

Speaker 3 Did you call the DNC to clean up the roadkill, Jason?

Speaker 2 I'm an independent, folks. Just, I know these guys keep trying to pin me as a Democrat.

Speaker 1 I'm an independent critical thinker for life, but I do think Ezra is got a little PTSD.

Speaker 2 I haven't heard from Ezra.

Speaker 3 DC have a roadkill cleanup crew?

Speaker 2 You know, it's amazing.

Speaker 1 You have an episode like that where I thought we made great progress on dealing with those issues and came to some consensus at the end.

Speaker 1 And then every single person universally, if they're on the right, oh my God, Saxon Chamaf destroyed them.

Speaker 1 If they're on the left, the left's position was, oh my God, Saxon, Chamoth finally got destroyed. Anyway, you decide for yourself.
We're just here to talk about the most important news stories. And

Speaker 4 all in summit. I think Chamoth is right.
I think they sent the same crew that cleans up the armadillos on the road.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 All righty, here we go. September 7th to 9th.

Speaker 4 There are a couple of armadillos left lying on the side of the road.

Speaker 2 All right. Okay.

Speaker 2 All in summit.

Speaker 1 It is going into its fourth year, yada, yada. September 7th to 9th.
Apply. All in.com slash summit.

Speaker 3 Pronouns everywhere.

Speaker 2 Pronouns everywhere.

Speaker 2 Come on.

Speaker 2 Can I think who's going to be able to do that?

Speaker 3 We're just trying to clean up the pronouns. Then shovels weren't big enough for all the pronouns.

Speaker 1 Freeberg was on Jeopardy again, celebrity Jeopardy, and I don't want to ruin it for you, but he had an amazing comeback victory. But really excited to have on the program today

Speaker 1 one of your favorites. He was on the show pre-election.

Speaker 3 One of my favorites.

Speaker 5 Robert F.

Speaker 1 Kennedy is with us again.

Speaker 2 RFK. How are you doing? I love the glasses.

Speaker 1 You're going to make America healthy again. And welcome to the program, RFK Jr.

Speaker 2 We found out that autism is caused mainly by this show, and we're going to have to take action.

Speaker 2 We've started to look at the different causes, but we're thinking it is the debate between Ezra Klein and Larry Summers that is the

Speaker 2 real villain here.

Speaker 2 Brain Man David Saxon.

Speaker 2 And it said, we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it. Love you.

Speaker 1 Tremendous. Everybody knows RFK is going to do a great job.

Speaker 7 He's a little bit weird, but wife is a smokeshow.

Speaker 1 I mean, an incredible wife, RFK Jr. Incredible.

Speaker 2 Not as good.

Speaker 1 Not as good.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, I'm trying to land it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 What am I supposed to do? I'm up against a professional.

Speaker 2 You know, so welcome to the program.

Speaker 2 Moderate. Yeah, okay, here we go.
Don't talk over me, okay?

Speaker 2 You just sit down, Jamal. Can you do what you did last time?

Speaker 2 Three. Can you do what you did last time?

Speaker 1 What's that? What's that?

Speaker 2 Moderate for narcissists who all want to add one more thing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, let the experts talk.

Speaker 2 Yes, of course. Hang Zach.
There comes Zach. Why can't I talk?

Speaker 8 Why can't I talk?

Speaker 2 Can you please pass the ball? Just pass the ball. Let's go.
Here we go.

Speaker 5 Let's welcome our guest, Tim.

Speaker 2 Let the shooters shoot.

Speaker 1 He's an incredibly funny comedian. He has a new special, I'm Your Mother, on Netflix.
He's the host of the award-winning, now in its 10th year, Emmy-winning, award-winning. He's got the Emmy.

Speaker 1 He's got the Tony. He's still got to get the Grammy and the Oscar.
The one, the only Tim Dillon of the Tim Dillon Show podcast.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
I feel like I'm having a Zoom meeting with Doge to prove what I've done in the last week.

Speaker 2 This is the last thing someone at the EPA sees. It's just these four guys.
They're just staring at a guy like Tramath, going, Well, we tested some soil.

Speaker 2 I think we got those numbers back.

Speaker 2 That's what it feels like here. I feel like I'm on trial just trying to justify my stupid job.

Speaker 1 Would you like eight-month severance or would you like to be fired today?

Speaker 2 Which would you prefer, Tim? You have both options on the table.

Speaker 3 It would have been very funny if we actually were just, if as soon as Tim said that, we had Steve Davis pop on.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, interestingly, I, you know, I don't want to speak out of school or embarrass our guests, but Tim was supposed to join us in February.

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 1 And like the star he is, as I mentioned, he's, he's got the Emmy, he's got the Tony, still working on the Oscar and the Grammy. He was supposed to be with us and he canceled last minute.

Speaker 1 And then we found out why. Yeah.
He ditched us to spend the day with Steve Bannon and go on the Steve Bannon podcast.

Speaker 2 Here they are.

Speaker 2 Here he is.

Speaker 2 What is this? Look at that. That's Steve Bannon and Timmy.
I took the 23 and me, and they didn't tell me my ethnicity, but the only thing that came back was they said that Steve Bannon was my father.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And here they are on the cyclone in Brooklyn.

Speaker 6 Beautiful.

Speaker 2 They went out to Little Italy.

Speaker 2 Little Italy here.

Speaker 2 By the way, they've done a pretty decent job wrapping up with a little book. Or, I mean, maybe a little bit more in there.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 I mean, do you think Bannon is 420 friendly? You tell us, Timmy.

Speaker 2 I think anything, I mean, Bannon would tell you if we could start farming marijuana in America and the American working class could share in the profits, I think he'd be 420 friendly.

Speaker 1 He would be 420.

Speaker 2 Yeah, 420. No Taiwanese marijuana, though.
Nothing, you know, it's got to be American.

Speaker 3 Can I

Speaker 3 give a quick shout out, which is 10 months ago, Tim Dylan won on the Tucker Carlson show. I think the title is called Disney Boomers and the Creepy Corporations That Pretend to Love You.

Speaker 3 Really one of the best pieces of content I watched all of last year. Nick, you should put the link in the show notes.
Thank you. It's incredible.

Speaker 2 Like

Speaker 3 the whole thing end-to-end, two hours well spent, I would encourage everybody to watch it. It's timeless content, actually.

Speaker 2 Real good cultural observation of the moment.

Speaker 3 It's really good.

Speaker 2 Two white guys talking in a, in a, in a garage in Maine seems

Speaker 3 he has a certain way. You know, I, I went to

Speaker 3 and did it there. And he has a way of just kind of like slipping you into this state of comfort.
All of a sudden, I just started talking about all the money I'd lost.

Speaker 2 He's great. He's great at it.

Speaker 2 Where Where's his money from? Who's GHB? He's great at it. It's like Megan Kelly's great at it, too.
I just did her thing. And, you know, she does it at her house.

Speaker 2 And I just show up and she's sitting behind the desk. And she goes, Hi.

Speaker 2 And you sit down and you're, and then she goes, so your mother's a schizophrenic. Like immediately,

Speaker 2 you start crying to Megan Kelly. They're just good.
They know what they're doing.

Speaker 1 They know what they're doing.

Speaker 5 Let's get to the docking.

Speaker 1 H-20s, banned. The U.S.
and China trade war has been escalating. On Monday, the White House informed NVIDIA that they were putting an indefinite export restriction on NVIDIA's H20 chips to China.

Speaker 1 And so, in this filing, NVIDIA said it expects a $5.5 billion hit to the quarterly earnings. Stock dropped 6%.

Speaker 1 For those of you who don't know, H20 is essentially the weaker version of the H100.

Speaker 1 It was designed, actually, to comply with these export restrictions on AI chips and allow them, NVIDIA, to sell something into China. NVIDIA

Speaker 1 CEO Jensen Huang was visiting China today. He told Chinese state media, quote, the China market is very important to us, yada, yada.
Saxe, you're here. I think you

Speaker 1 got some official information for us on this. What's the story here? Wasn't this supposed to be the chip that was made for China?

Speaker 4 In a sense, I mean, there is a long history to this.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 4 So first of all, just to be clear, we're not talking about tariffs. We're talking about export controls.

Speaker 4 And the export controls are designed to prevent certain sensitive technologies, technologies that could have a dual use, potential military as well as consumer application, from going to China.

Speaker 4 And this goes all the way back to 2019. The first Trump administration placed a ban on extreme ultraviolet lithography equipment going to China.

Speaker 4 This is the key technology in the printing of transistors on the silicon wafer in the semiconductor manufacturing process. And there's only one company in the world that makes these machines.

Speaker 4 They cost like $200 million.

Speaker 2 It's called ASML.

Speaker 4 It's a company in the Netherlands. In any event, the first Trump administration prevented these machines from going to China, which I think in hindsight was a really far-sighted decision.

Speaker 4 Because if it weren't for that, China might today be dominating.

Speaker 4 global manufacturing of semiconductors and their inability to get that sort of lithography equipment, I think, definitely put a dent in their plans.

Speaker 4 Subsequent to that, in 2022, the Biden administration started adding leading-edge chips to the export control list. Like you said, the H100.

Speaker 4 NVIDIA then designed a new chip that was basically a version of the H100, but they reduced the amount of flops or computational power just below the threshold so they could continue selling it to China.

Speaker 4 That was called the H800. The Biden administration then added the H800 to the export control list in 2023.
So NVIDIA developed the H20, which again is kind of like a Nerf version of the H100.

Speaker 4 It just has less computational power.

Speaker 4 I think the issue is that flops isn't the only criteria by which you can measure the power of a chip. There's also now memory bandwidth.

Speaker 4 And in the new paradigm of reinforcement learning and test time compute, memory bandwidth actually matters more than the amount of flops.

Speaker 4 And if you look at the memory bandwidth bandwidth on the H20, it actually has 20% more memory bandwidth than the H100. So I think there's a view that this chip is just frankly too good.

Speaker 4 And the response I'd have to people who don't think we should be restricting this is, are you against expert controls in general, or you just think that we're drawing the line in the wrong place here?

Speaker 4 Because, you know, I've heard folks like our friends like Bill Gurley and so forth say that

Speaker 4 we're making a mistake. But I think the question for those people is, would you sell them everything? I mean, if China wanted to buy the latest NVIDIA chip, the GB200, would you sell that to them?

Speaker 4 Would you sell them

Speaker 4 10 million of those? Would you sell them 5 million if they're willing to pay a premium?

Speaker 4 It seems to me that at some point you have to say that some technologies are just too sensitive to be sold to China. And so then the question is just, are you drawing the line in the right place?

Speaker 1 Let me bring Freeberg in on that.

Speaker 1 Freeberg, friends of the pod, like Gavin Baker, said these tariffs and these type of bans are going to essentially guarantee that America will lose AI because, and Gurley as well has this position: that we're now going to make China force them to make their own chips.

Speaker 1 Now, you know, necessity will be the mother invention and it's going to escalate. And we'd be better off just selling them these instead of the latest ones.
What's your take on that?

Speaker 1 That, you know, this will be the

Speaker 1 inspiration for them to build their own NVIDIA.

Speaker 6 It's an important question. Last year, China announced and began a $37 billion

Speaker 6 investment in developing their own three-nanometer nanometer chimp technology. So, you know, the EUV lithography systems that Sachs is referencing

Speaker 6 require these wavelengths of light at about 13 and a half nanometer, which is, you know, the previous technology was like 200 plus nanometer.

Speaker 6 So it's very, very small wavelengths of light that you have to be able to manipulate very, in a very kind of discrete way. to print circuits that are just three nanometer scale.

Speaker 6 And so it turns out that last year, China made made a claim that this investment they had made was starting to pay off and they had developed their own EUV system.

Speaker 6 And their big semiconductor companies called the Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation or SMIC in China.

Speaker 6 They launched a chip, a seven nanometer chip with Huawei in their Mate 60 Pro, which is sort of like their iPhone competitor in China.

Speaker 6 And so they're proclaiming that they've already got this EUV technology from what I understand, and Sachs would know better than I.

Speaker 6 It sounds like there was a lot of reverse engineering and workaround of existing technology in order to deliver that system. But they may now already be investing in and developing their own system.

Speaker 6 So, JCAL, I think they're doing it either way. I think that they're going to invest and build their own EUV and chip manufacturing capacity either way.

Speaker 6 And the question is, does this slow them down or limit their ability on the application or the AI layer? to kind of be held back for some time.

Speaker 1 Obviously, it accelerates it because they have no choice but to accelerates their commitment to it. So, Tim, you've been talking about these EUV technologies in the 200 nanometer one specification.

Speaker 2 It's my entire special special. It's a little crazy that you rip me off like this.
My entire special is about is about the lithograph.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that's the hour that I do. You know, I'm of the mind, if you give a man a chip, he makes one semiconductor or a few.

Speaker 2 But if you teach a man to make a chip, he makes multiple semiconductors and invades Taiwan. So that's where I am with this.
You know,

Speaker 2 I think we should keep them dependent. Keep selling it to them.

Speaker 2 Yes. Keep selling it to them.
Treat it like that.

Speaker 1 You understand how this works. Yes.

Speaker 1 If somebody becomes addicted to the good stuff, then they come back. You don't want to give them too much.

Speaker 2 And you hide a little, you backdoor the technology with a little surveillance and stuff. So have some fun.
Have some fun. You know, that's been done before.

Speaker 1 Sure. Backdoors all the time.

Speaker 2 You backdoor the technology, a little surveillance capability. You slip it in there.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Shamath, what's your thoughts coming around the horn here?

Speaker 1 You were sort of talking about, I think, publicly, and obviously you've got Grok, and so

Speaker 1 you're in the space with chips. Does this net net, end of the day, slow them down or slow them down short term, speed them up long term?

Speaker 3 I think that the technology that they need is extremely non-trivial. And I do think that it actually slows them down quite a bit if they don't have access to it.

Speaker 3 Can I just take a step back and up-level this? I think it was in 2017, the State Council of China published this plan, and they were incredibly transparent and honest.

Speaker 3 They said, this plan is for China to become a global leader in AI by 2030. Okay.

Speaker 3 And it said, so this is in 2017. And they said, by 2020, we need to have made iconic advances.
By 2025, we should be a major engine of the industry.

Speaker 3 And by 2030, they should occupy the commanding heights, they said, in AI tech.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 So why is that important? To be honest with you, I think the real problem that we have is that NVIDIA is not doing what is in the best interest of the United States.

Speaker 3 David mentioned this. When the U.S.
banned the sale of the top end GPUs, the A100 and the H100, They quickly introduced the A800 and H800.

Speaker 2 What does that mean?

Speaker 3 Well, all it was was just just a chip that was basically the same.

Speaker 3 It slightly reduced the data transfer speed so that it went under the export control threshold, but it was still really usable.

Speaker 3 Then late last year, they introduced this thing called this H20 that was explicitly designed for China and to be compliant with U.S.

Speaker 3 rules at the time, which again gives these guys substantial performance. Okay, so what do you have?

Speaker 3 You have a 2017 plan that they've been executing against, which is to say we want to dominate this base.

Speaker 3 And you have an American company that has been working around the guidelines at every turn to try to land silicon into the hands of China.

Speaker 3 So then you would say, well, maybe there's not that much going into China. Nick, can you just throw up the chart that I sent you about NVIDIA's revenue composition?

Speaker 3 So let's just call a spade a spade, guys. I think we can all do the math.
About 47%

Speaker 3 of all of NVIDIA's revenue goes to China and Chinese-related

Speaker 3 countries. And I think when you peel back this onion,

Speaker 3 I think what you will find is a whole raft of companies that were stood up to buy these NVIDIA GPUs to essentially act as a way station for China.

Speaker 3 And I think that is the big problem, because it doesn't mean that it was just these chips that David and his colleagues put on an export control list. It was every kind of chip.

Speaker 3 And now it explains every single time we have an advance in the United States, how is it that Alibaba shows up with something incredible, DeepSeek shows up with something better.

Speaker 3 At every turn and at every step of AI, they are at the same rate or one step ahead. And I suspect it's because that these chips are being used in very sophisticated ways behind the scenes.

Speaker 3 And I think that's the issue that we need to address.

Speaker 1 Just to be clear, The insight you have here, the prediction is people are selling these to Taiwan. They're selling them in Singapore.

Speaker 3 I think it's more Hong Kong.

Speaker 1 I think it's a group that are zipping them over to China mainland or letting them use them.

Speaker 3 I don't know if you saw, but I believe there was a report that there was a couple of Singaporeans that were arrested for actually trying to bring the chips into China.

Speaker 3 I don't think it's necessarily that. I think what happens is you have some entity that springs up, you know,

Speaker 3 Acamicorp.com. They show up in Bhutan or Cambodia or Vietnam or Singapore and they provide a PO, a purchase order to NVIDIA,

Speaker 3 $300, $500, $800 million.

Speaker 3 What do you think NVIDIA is going to do? They're going to think, well, this is a legitimate Singaporean entity. I'm going to sell them the chips, whatever they want.

Speaker 3 It checks all the boxes. And they look away.

Speaker 3 And what we need to now figure out is what happens once those chips get delivered. It is the only explanation for this.
You don't have this requirement for this number of GPUs for those end markets.

Speaker 2 There is only one end market.

Speaker 1 That's an explosive allegation.

Speaker 1 Sax, what do you think of this theory more broadly?

Speaker 4 I think it is a fact that there have been both legal and illegal attempts to evade the U.S. export controls.
That is true. And there's a number of companies that have done it.
For example, last year,

Speaker 4 there was a case where TSMC was discovered to have produced something like 3 million chips that went into the Huawei Ascend

Speaker 4 910C chips. I think there's like 3 million dies or something that went into the Huawei SN chips.
And I think they're being fined for that. And again, this is all public information.

Speaker 4 Now, they claim that they thought it was for a company called, I think, Softco. It's basically a Bitcoin like ASICs company.
But nonetheless, this did happen.

Speaker 4 So there have been attempts to set up shell companies to circumvent the export controls, and it is a very big problem.

Speaker 1 Tim,

Speaker 1 what do you think more broadly about what trump is doing with this trade war in china any takes on china taiwan and just how americans should look at hey maybe we have to buy some more high quality products maybe we don't get things on teamu as cheap with these you know 850 exemptions etc

Speaker 2 i think roughly trump's instincts are correct i think the

Speaker 2 the way that the tariffs rolled out seem to be incredibly chaotic. I think that's a huge problem with a lot of what the Trump administration does.

Speaker 2 They seem to have the correct instincts, but they have like a very sloppy rollout, right? Like everything's a hard launch. Everything's incredibly, I don't know that things are messaged the right way.

Speaker 2 The whole Doge thing is a little bit of a fiasco because the messaging seemed off. Like nobody was out really talking about what they were doing and why they were doing it.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't know how well this works, you know, I mean, you have a very integrated global economy. You guys know more about that than I do.
Are you able to unwind that?

Speaker 2 And if you do, you have to unwind it in certain areas, and certain areas you're going to have to allow to probably remain relatively stable and consistent, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, if you listen to Ray Dalio, he talks about like

Speaker 2 a disaster coming with monetary policy, right? The whole unwinding of these economic and political structures kind of happening at once. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think, I think Americans do overconsume a lot of crap. I think cheap goods aren't necessarily the highest

Speaker 2 organizing principle of life. I think people have been sold the idea that cheap goods are more important than having a stable, functioning job and family.

Speaker 2 I think the gig economy has been sold to Americans as a way to offer them

Speaker 2 freedom and really in chaos at the expense of the stability that used to come with, you know, a job with benefits that you stayed in for,

Speaker 2 you know. But the other component to that is, you know,

Speaker 2 we have to make sure that like, you know, we don't have skyrocketing prices that completely decimate people either. So I think you need to find a balance.
I want to see my friends work in factories.

Speaker 2 I want them to get hurt. I want to release the safety standards.
I want child labor. Children are terrorists, many of them.

Speaker 2 They start fights in malls.

Speaker 2 They have flash mobs. They run around Chicago trying to kill people that are just trying to have shellfish towers on the river.
So yes, children should work.

Speaker 2 My friend should work in a plastics factory.

Speaker 2 DoorDash is a horrible job.

Speaker 2 You lose a finger at a factory. It's a story.
Delivering burritos is a hell. Driving Uber, all these horrible, degrading things we make people do and then tell them it's great.

Speaker 2 And then we look, you know, you should destigmatize being an electrician, a plumber, a contractor, all these things that when I was told,

Speaker 2 you know, when I was growing up, they'd point to a guy doing construction and go, you're going to do that if you don't do your homework.

Speaker 2 And then the people that did their homework are all, you know, bankrupt. And that construction guy, you know, is

Speaker 2 killing it. He's doing pretty well.
And so what? He went to January 6th. He went there peacefully.
But the whole thing is like, I think you need to figure out,

Speaker 2 you know, how to to kind of reintroduce the idea that this gig economy where people surf from one unfulfilling nightmare to the next

Speaker 1 should be rethought.

Speaker 5 Yes, better to be in a factory losing a finger.

Speaker 2 Can I ask the question,

Speaker 2 who

Speaker 2 in David's estimation, when you're talking about these companies that are set up to get these chips that evade export controls, you think, is that the Chinese government doing that?

Speaker 2 Is that an intelligence agency doing that? Who would be setting those companies up? Is it people that are interested purely in profit and that are then selling those chips? That's super interesting.

Speaker 4 Well, I think you have to ask the question qui bono. I mean, who benefits? Right.

Speaker 4 I think clearly the shell companies, the front companies are set up by either the Chinese government or entities in China to evade the export controls because ultimately they want the chips.

Speaker 4 However, I think there is also a problem

Speaker 4 that Lenin described as the capitalists will sell us the rope with which to hang themselves.

Speaker 4 And I do think there are a lot of Western companies that will look the other way or turned a blind eye and just haven't been enforcing the rules as religiously as they should because it's profitable not to.

Speaker 4 And this is where I do think that the U.S. government has to be pretty tough.

Speaker 4 I mean, if we're going to have export controls in the first place, I know there's some people who don't think we should have them, but I do.

Speaker 4 I mean, I don't think we should let China have access to our leading edge AI technology. We have to make sure that the export controls are effective.

Speaker 4 And that means there has to be some cracking down in order to make that happen.

Speaker 4 Part of the crackdown is we have to define the boundary lines in a more effective way with fewer loopholes so that companies can't legally take advantage of those loopholes.

Speaker 4 But also, we're going to need more monitoring, more inspection, and more enforcement. And this is one of the few areas of the government that I actually think needs more resources.

Speaker 4 I think that Elon and Doge have identified many areas of the government that are massively overstaffed. But this is one area.

Speaker 4 There's an agency inside the Department of Commerce called BIS that actually has to do all of this monitoring and inspections and enforcement.

Speaker 4 And I actually think they're understaffed relative to the importance of this particular task.

Speaker 3 Let's have a thought starter for a second, guys. Do you guys think

Speaker 3 that if 47%

Speaker 3 of all of the AI capability and horsepower is being shipped to three Asian countries.

Speaker 3 Where do you think the apps that require that amount of horsepower live? Is there a cursor of Bhutan that we did not know?

Speaker 3 Is there a great shopping app in Cambodia that's come out of nowhere that's AI-powered? I think the answer is no. So we already know what the answer is.
The question is,

Speaker 3 this is a case where you have plausible deniability, right?

Speaker 3 I sell something to a Singaporean registered company, plausible deniability. What am I supposed to do? You can't expect me to audit it.
I think that's what NVIDIA's answer will be to this question.

Speaker 3 But what is the real expectation? Let's flip it on its head. Last week, China, in retaliation for tariffs, constrained the supply of rare earths outside of China, right? Leaving China.

Speaker 3 You had certain factory lines that just had to stop on a dime, right?

Speaker 3 So they're clearly in a position to understand their supply chain, who benefits or who doesn't benefit and can be hurt by constraining supply, and they're able to affect that.

Speaker 3 At a minimum, the United States should have a mechanism to understand it. Whether they do it or not should be up to, you know, powers that be that are bigger than the four of us or the five of us.

Speaker 3 But that's my point, which is that it is implausible. that if you did one or two layers of work, you would not find that most of this traffic is being used by Chinese organizations.

Speaker 3 That may be okay, and that's a decision that the United States government should make, but it's something that should be disclosed to them somehow.

Speaker 3 And I think if you look at the composition of revenue for NVIDIA, it is inconceivable that there's a bunch of Asian AI apps that are just crushing it so hard.

Speaker 1 No, no, I mean, it's so obvious what's happening there.

Speaker 6 I think we,

Speaker 1 yeah, we don't need to guess. Taiwan and Vietnam do not have the need for that many domestically.
They're obviously flipping them to someone, right?

Speaker 1 It's a given some percentage of those are being resold. Hey,

Speaker 1 Freeberg,

Speaker 1 you were on Jeopardy. Freeberg went to the next round.

Speaker 3 Wait, this is the outro to that.

Speaker 1 I wanted to get Tim in on the on the Jeopardy thing.

Speaker 4 You should have done like a more broadly accessible topic like ours.

Speaker 2 Oh, the chips are great. I like the chips.
Do you like that, Tim? I learned something. The plausible deniability is interesting.

Speaker 2 It's like the banks that dealt with Jeffrey Epstein, and I know it's a sore topic because he was the fifth man on this show and R.I.P. And if we miss him,

Speaker 2 he was never being a man. But to be honest, he would have been phenomenal on the show.
Let's just say he could have been good on the show. Yeah.
And he would have been good on the show.

Speaker 2 But that was a very interesting topic. I've never been on a podcast where a topic's been handled.
And I'm going to go on Joe Rogan tomorrow and just say everything Tramov just said. I'm going to go.

Speaker 2 I'm going to go. What did he say? Can we level this up or something? Can we high-level this? Yeah, we're level level.
What did he say?

Speaker 2 Can we up-level it?

Speaker 2 I say that at Chili's. I go, can we up-level this for a minute? Yes.
$199 extra if you want if you want the extra jalapenos to me. So what's going on, Harvard? Are we selling that to China?

Speaker 2 I'm for that. Yes.
Well, there's been a Donnie book, if you will, Tim,

Speaker 1 between Trump and Harvard.

Speaker 4 It's too smart to buy Harvard.

Speaker 4 They know it's a scam.

Speaker 2 That's a good point.

Speaker 1 Here we go. I just spoken like a true Stanford guy.
On March 31st, three federal agencies announced they were reviewing $9 billion.

Speaker 1 $9 billion in multi-year federal grants and $256 million in contracts that went to Harvard, three agencies, Education, Health, and the GSA.

Speaker 1 This past Friday, April 11th, the group sent a letter to Harvard's president, the head of Harvard Corporation, laid out a series of changes.

Speaker 1 The White House is demanding merit-based hiring and admissions, staff, admission students, all that good stuff. Cancel all your DEI programs, no more DAI, reform international admissions.

Speaker 1 No more admitting students that are, quote, hostile to American values, increase the different

Speaker 1 viewpoints on diversity across all departments and abolish admission practices. That served as an ideological litmus test.
Harvard's president, Alan Garber, said he would not comply.

Speaker 1 Later that day, the White House responded by freezing 2.2 billion in grants, 60 million in contracts.

Speaker 1 They now want to take away the White House the tax-exempt status of Harvard, which would be absolutely insane. It's happened actually once before in the 1970s.

Speaker 1 Bob Jones University in South Carolina was doing outwardly racist stuff. And the IRS, according to the cnn is looking into this your thoughts shiman

Speaker 3 well it's more than the irs is looking into it they're thinking of revoking their tax exempt status yeah

Speaker 3 how about i tee this up slightly differently tim you brought up something that i think is really important which is what is the american dream for all these people that are cascading between half jobs and half measures that's right

Speaker 3 That's a really important question.

Speaker 3 And right now, if you look at the top of the educational hierarchy, Harvard, what have we seen over the last few years? They are at the absolute bottom of the rankings with respect to free speech.

Speaker 3 They have lost all of these cases all the way up to the Supreme Court about how they do admissions. Harvard doesn't just have a front door.

Speaker 3 It's got a bunch of side doors, got a bunch of back doors, and they discriminate.

Speaker 3 And what is the opposite of discrimination? It's meritocracy. And I think with 20 plus years of discrimination, what Harvard did was made it fashionable for other schools to discriminate.

Speaker 3 And if you compound that for 20 years,

Speaker 3 it doesn't just touch the universities. It starts to touch the high schools and the middle schools.

Speaker 3 Where we live, at the beginning of COVID, we had some morons at the Board of Education decide to take away AP calculus and AP math because it made people feel bad. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Speaker 3 And then we pound these kids with ADHD pills.

Speaker 3 And what happens is what you described, Tim. So what is the point of fixing Harvard? It's really important because the opposite of what they do, what they do is discriminate,

Speaker 3 is a meritocracy. And we need to make that fashionable again.
And the biggest reason goes back to, again, I'll just go back to the CHIP conversation. The Chinese are so well organized.

Speaker 3 If you look at the Chinese and the Indians together, those are 2.5 billion people swimming in a meritocratic soup from the day they're born. That's the only way they climb out.

Speaker 3 And it's eat or be eaten. And then when they graduate from an education system that is purely meritocratic, you know what they do? They enter a workforce that's also meritocratic.

Speaker 3 So it's compounded into their psyche that you just have to perform. Whereas what we do is we do all of these fake things that make people feel really bad about themselves.

Speaker 3 They look at other people that think that shouldn't deserve to be in places, get places. And so we have to turn that tide.

Speaker 3 And so whatever it takes, the most severe and extreme measures must be undertaken to fix this that's my point of view

Speaker 1 tim your thoughts on uh trump wanting to take away the non-profit style i went to the um

Speaker 2 i went to one of these encampments during the protests i wanted to see it for myself to see what was going on i do i i did like there was a lot of you you'd see a non-binary uh asian dressed up like a hamas and i think that's fun i think it's college So I think that people are going to express views that are often, you know, probably anti-American.

Speaker 2 I don't think we can,

Speaker 2 you can't shield yourself from that.

Speaker 2 I don't, I don't like deporting people that are, you know, critical of Israel, for example, unless they've committed crimes and you can provide they're providing material support.

Speaker 2 You know, if you can prove they're providing due process. Due process.

Speaker 2 Well, you need to provide, you know, if they're providing material support to Hamas or something like that, that's a different story.

Speaker 2 But if they're here on a legal resident visa, they should be allowed the space to

Speaker 2 express themselves as any other American citizen would. Now, that being said, it is impossible to look at higher education in America right now and not be embarrassed.

Speaker 2 Truly, truly, the word is embarrassment. These should be the shining example of, as Shamath was saying, institutions that prepare people.
for the real world.

Speaker 2 But what they really are, they've all been captured in this quasi-religious cult of insanity where people are elevating

Speaker 2 different types of characteristics outside of intelligence and merit as the most important things to be considered for admission,

Speaker 2 you know, to be given academic achievements and things like this. It's kind of embarrassing.

Speaker 2 And I think if these institutions are going to follow that path, they're going to have to live and die on their own. They're not going to be able to be taxpayer subsidized and funded.

Speaker 2 They have massive endowments from multi-billionaires whose families all go. But like Jamaz said, they do engage in discrimination.

Speaker 2 And frankly, you know, again, I'm not for drawing ideological lines and I'm a big free speech guy, but I do think that you don't find much ideological diversity on any of those campuses, certainly not in the faculties at all.

Speaker 2 And it doesn't prepare anybody for a world. And all the politics are very aesthetic.

Speaker 2 I mean, all these people are out there, you know, showing off, exhibiting their virtue, but at the end of the day, they're still getting a very cushy internship and a nice job.

Speaker 2 And, you know, they're going to summer in Marthy's Vineyard. You know, for example,

Speaker 2 I was lucky enough to go to Kennedy compound this summer. I went sailing with their family and they're really great kids.
A lot of the kids there. They're on the rock.
Where are they?

Speaker 2 No, they're on, you know, Hyannis, whatever, the famous thing. And I went there and a lot of their, you know, young, their young kids, RFKs, kids are young.
They went to Harvard.

Speaker 2 And a lot of these Harvard kids are all good kids. But, you know, some of them are very interesting, right? Because they said to me, they said, you own a house in the Hamptons.
I said, said, yeah.

Speaker 2 They go, do you ever go out there in the winter? I go, yeah, sometimes I do. It's quiet, nice.
You could write. You could work on stuff.

Speaker 2 They go, yeah, well, you know, they go, it's kind of depressing to come to the Cape in the winter because all these people here are on drugs. And it's like, yeah, because you shipped their jobs away.

Speaker 2 So it just is stunning. And these are Harvard kids.
They're very smart kids. But you have these chasms where they, you know, where you would think it would be completely obvious.
to people

Speaker 2 at this, you know,

Speaker 2 amazing academic institution that, yeah, of course, the people are on drugs, they're embracing pathological behavior, they don't have a future.

Speaker 2 But these schools have become these really insular bubbles where these people have these really well-meaning aesthetic politics, which says, we don't care about your economic circumstances.

Speaker 2 Here's a trans Batman.

Speaker 2 And I don't think that that, that seems to be the ethos of higher education in America right now. And

Speaker 2 it's very hypocritical. And I think it's why the Democratic Party no longer connects because they're too closely associated with like that type of you know that type of elite vibe identity politics.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Freeberg, what's your thought? Should the IRS revoke or threaten to revoke here their nonprofit status? Is that a fair technique here because they won't acquiesce and

Speaker 1 do exactly as instructed?

Speaker 1 And what do you think is going to happen here? Could this possibly result in them losing their IRS status?

Speaker 6 Harvard's endowment is $53.2 billion.

Speaker 6 Huge.

Speaker 6 Assume they make 7%

Speaker 6 return. You know, they're making $4 billion a year in income generated from those investments in that endowment.
I think there's a couple of two really important questions.

Speaker 6 One is, should the role of the federal government be to give out money equally to institutions, or should the role be to give money to the institutions that are going to provide the highest ROI for America?

Speaker 6 Or is the goal to redistribute wealth? And is that the point of federal spending and federal expenditures?

Speaker 6 So, you know, you could kind of think about Harvard, MIT, and a few other institutions that have truly great research institutions embedded within them as being the best ROI for America from a grant perspective when you're giving out research grants.

Speaker 6 That's the best place because it just like any other great technology company, it accumulates capital because it accumulates talent. And that has a network effect.

Speaker 6 And now you've got a few institutions that have a monopoly on high quality talent. And as a result, it's the best ROI for America.
Is that what the federal government is investing in?

Speaker 6 Or should the federal government be trying to support universities all over the place that are more in need, particularly a university that has 53 billion of capital?

Speaker 6 Do they really need the federal funds?

Speaker 6 So then the next question, I think, is like, what is the limit on the government's ability to influence whether or not an institution institution gets their capital? Is it statutory?

Speaker 6 Is it mandated by law? Or does it become politically motivated, socially motivated, et cetera?

Speaker 6 Because in other parts of how we're seeing decisions being made, we're saying Chevron doctrine was thrown out.

Speaker 6 And when Chevron doctrine gets thrown out, we can't rely on the regulatory scrutiny of the administrators of the capital. We have to rely on the law.
And is there a law that they're relying on?

Speaker 6 And I think that's the key question is to have the administration point to the laws that they believe are being violated to kind of make, I would say, a strongly defensible argument about why they would withhold the capital to make sure that they're compliant with the law and whatnot, and have it not be kind of, you know, just we would prefer to see you do things differently because we think it's socially better.

Speaker 6 So, I think those are kind of the two key points.

Speaker 6 Whether or not these institutions deserve nonprofit status, I don't know why an institution that has 53 billion of capital and is making probably four or five billion a year shouldn't pay taxes on that income.

Speaker 6 That income is being used to, in a variety of ways, to build nice buildings. And there's IP that's held by these institutions.
That IP is used to start startups. They get equity in the startups.

Speaker 6 They have income streams on their IP. I mean, they really do operate like technology development centers.
So, you know, what is the original kind of reason for saying that they should be tax-exempt?

Speaker 6 The majority of the capital is not being used to educate students. The majority of the capital is being used to reinvest to make new capital.

Speaker 1 Sax, your position on Harvard losing its tax-exempt status potentially because they will not stop their DEI programs, or they want to, I guess, better state it would be that they want to make their own decisions about this and not have the federal government make those decisions.

Speaker 4 Let's get to the nitty-gritty of the legal issue here.

Speaker 4 In 1983, there was a case called Bob Jones University versus the IRS, in which the IRS challenged the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones University because Bob Jones had this bizarre and reprehensible policy banning interracial dating on campus and interracial marriage based on a strange interpretation of scripture.

Speaker 4 At least that's what they said it was. In any event, Bob Jones lost that case and they lost their tax exempt status.

Speaker 4 As far as I know, they kept the policy and they continue to operate as a private university.

Speaker 4 But the Supreme Court found that if you enshrine a racially discriminatory policy in violation of the civil rights laws, then you cannot get tax exempt status. So that was the precedent.

Speaker 4 Fast forward to 2023, we have the case Students for Fair Admissions versus Harvard.

Speaker 4 This is the Supreme Court case a few years ago that said that affirmative action policies that use race as a factor in admissions are a violation of the 14th Amendment's protection against racial discrimination.

Speaker 4 So Harvard lost that case. They were found to be racially discriminating in admissions.

Speaker 4 Now, what Harvard did in the wake of that is that they claimed that they removed access to information about an applicant's race from the admissions process so that the admissions readers don't know what race a student is.

Speaker 4 This is their claim.

Speaker 4 But at the same time that they did that, they updated their application, replacing the long form essay, you know, that all of us filled out decades ago when we went to school with five shorter questions asking how applicants will contribute to a diverse student body.

Speaker 4 It's suspiciously similar to these DEI statements where prospective professors who are applying for jobs at these universities get asked, you know, how will you contribute to diversity on campus, things like this.

Speaker 4 And it's used as a way to discriminate against conservatives or people who just think that race or diversity should not be a factor in teaching on campus.

Speaker 4 Anyone who answers that question, I believe in judging people based on the content of their character, not the color of their skin, they're going to get weeded out, right?

Speaker 4 I mean, or someone who says, well, I'm going to contribute to diversity on campus by contributing intellectual diversity. Those are the types of applicants who get weeded out by these DEI statements.

Speaker 4 And we see that. And another part of what the government is claiming is that Harvard is engaged in viewpoint discrimination against conservatives.

Speaker 4 And you can see this in polling of the Harvard faculty. More than 80% of surveyed Harvard faculty identify as liberal.

Speaker 9 So my point is this.

Speaker 4 These DEI statements have been used in faculty hiring to discriminate on the basis of viewpoint and to use race as a factor in hiring.

Speaker 4 I think in a similar way, they've now updated their admission application to make all the essays about race.

Speaker 4 So I think this idea that they're not playing a game here and they're not trying to engineer the student class around race, it's hard to believe, right?

Speaker 4 I mean, these are people who have not changed their ideology.

Speaker 4 They believe what they were doing before that 2023 case was trying to engineer the percentages of each student class to match the percentages of each race in the American population, right?

Speaker 4 And these are people who are doctrinaire about that ideology. So the idea that they're not still doing it, I think, is hard to believe.

Speaker 3 Now, of course.

Speaker 2 Of course.

Speaker 4 So we all know what they're doing.

Speaker 4 And the alternative to the administration saying, just get rid of DEI is that every year or two, we're going to have new litigation where there'll be some whistleblower and it'll come out that Harvard's still engaging in racial discrimination.

Speaker 4 And then, you know, Harvard will be found guilty like they were in that 2023 case and they'll change their policy and they'll manipulate it and they'll play some new game and there'll be a new court case and we'll keep going back and forth with them.

Speaker 4 Or we can just say, stop it right now. Stop the DEI nonsense.
Actually abide by both the letter and spirit of the Supreme Court decision, Students for Fair Admissions versus Harvard.

Speaker 4 and stop engaging in racial discrimination. And this is why I think the administration is correct here in pressing Harvard on this.
Now, look, if Harvard wants to keep playing these games, they can.

Speaker 4 No one is saying that they have to get rid of DEI. They just have to give up their federal funding the way that Bob Jones University did.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 4 the problem is that Harvard wants to have its cake and eat it too, right?

Speaker 4 They want to basically keep engaging in racial discrimination through these DEI policies, but they want federal funding, and you can't have both.

Speaker 6 Do you think that these universities or universities in general that receive federal funding have become more

Speaker 6 ideologically

Speaker 6 call it liberal, I would call it a little bit more kind of socialist oriented

Speaker 6 because they're dependent on federal funding? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, is it the case that this ideology accrues over time when you are much more dependent on the government?

Speaker 3 You mean there's no market feedback that keeps you in check?

Speaker 6 There's no private market. There's nothing that ultimately translates into

Speaker 6 a system where you're necessarily needing to be competitive for capital, competitive for talent. Like the accumulation of federal dollars over time makes you say, I deserve federal dollars.

Speaker 6 And the people that think that you deserve federal dollars.

Speaker 3 You're making a really good point. And I think you could be right.
Nick, can you please throw up the chart that I sent you, which is the amount of research between China and America?

Speaker 3 Okay, first look at this. So again, you make these plans and you're like, where are we going to put the money?

Speaker 3 Okay, China says, guys, we are going to learn how to catch up to America in terms of spending on science. This is gross domestic expenditures on science.

Speaker 3 And what you see is China from basically nothing in 2001 is now neck and neck with the United States spending half a trillion dollars a year on core fundamental science research.

Speaker 3 So what happens as a byproduct of that? Okay, so you spend more on the way in. So China is listening to the market feedback.

Speaker 3 Friedberg, let's go and explore this idea that there is no market feedback in America. What are the long-run implications?

Speaker 3 And you see it on this chart, which is this is a simple chart that says what percentage of all of the foundational research comes from the United States versus comes from China.

Speaker 3 And what's crazy about this chart is right around 2019,

Speaker 3 China passed the United States.

Speaker 3 This chart, by the way, only measures research that is published in English.

Speaker 7 Okay?

Speaker 3 So if you added in the research that China actually publishes in Chinese, they would have run away with this a decade earlier. So then you think about, okay, well, what is the implication of this?

Speaker 3 Well, the implication is obvious. These guys are inventing things.
We're playing catch up.

Speaker 6 Meanwhile, we're bumbling around talking about pronouns.

Speaker 3 We can't get our act together. This is why we need to be decisive.
What is important here?

Speaker 6 So for NIH grants, this was published by the NIH, by the way, a few weeks ago on their Twitter account. So, this is an image they put out.

Speaker 6 And on Feb 15th or thereabouts, the NIH said any grants we give to universities now.

Speaker 6 So, today, if you're a researcher, you're a scientist at a university like Harvard, I don't know if people realize this. The way you get funding for your lab is you will apply for a grant.

Speaker 6 Someone has to give you that capital to run your lab. And many grants come from the NIH.
So, they go to the NIH, they file for a grant. If the grant gets approved, they get $3 million, let's say.

Speaker 6 But what happens is that at the institution that they run that lab at, that institution can now bill the government for some negotiated percentage of the grant amount to cover administrative overhead.

Speaker 6 So at Harvard, you know what the administrative overhead was up until Feb 15th? 69%.

Speaker 1 Wait, no, wait,

Speaker 1 you're saying $69 of every $100 go to administration.

Speaker 2 It's an incremental... $631.

Speaker 6 Yeah, well, it's actually an incremental $69. So the way it works.

Speaker 6 The lab gets $100 and then Harvard bills the government $69.

Speaker 7 That's insane.

Speaker 6 That's insane. And this is true.
And the average is around 30% today across universities and other institutions.

Speaker 6 So there's also this very fundamental question that's being asked in science right now, which is, are universities even the right place to be doing fundamental scientific research?

Speaker 6 In the United States, there are different models. Most of our research is done either at a private company, which is a small amount of research.
And remember, I've talked about this a lot.

Speaker 6 The big companies that have a market that's telling them you have to have a positive return on invested capital, that have the scale to invest, have the most incredible returns for America, like Google that put out the Transformer model that launched everything that we see today and invested in Waymo for many years and drove the self-driving car revolution and all the work that was going on at Bell Labs.

Speaker 6 up until we said Bell Labs a monopoly and we broke them apart and they got destroyed.

Speaker 6 And so we largely aim to destroy large private research institutions in this country because we claim that they're monopolistic because of the way they source capital, which is through activities in the marketplace.

Speaker 6 So the question today that's being asked is, should we be doing fundamental scientific research at universities given that over time, the administrative overhead has grown and they're basically creating administrative workloads and employing people without necessarily having a market incentive.

Speaker 3 Can I tell you a crazy story? This is a story I've never told, but a friend of mine is an incredibly well-respected banker on Wall Street, very senior guy, works at one of the big mainline banks.

Speaker 3 And a few years ago, this is about 18 months ago, two years ago, he had always wanted to work in government. And they tried to get him to join the Federal Reserve.

Speaker 3 And it was for a role that was very... specific and narrow.
It was to manage a very specific part of the interest rate mortgage market. It's a really important role.

Speaker 3 It's a little bit in the weeds, but it was like his dream job. You know, he did his PhD thesis on it the whole, the whole nine years, whatever kind of thing.

Speaker 3 So he goes through these interviews and he sits with Jerome Powell, goes through that interview, sits with, I think, Leel Brainerd, you know, everybody.

Speaker 3 And it was time for the final interview.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 right before the person that was his kind of like shepherd says to him, you really need to play up your Indian-ness

Speaker 3 Because what we really want is somebody who can help us tell a diverse story. He goes, well, my diversity is that I know this market better than literally anyone else in the world.

Speaker 3 Like nobody knows this. I know it.
I've studied it since my PhD.

Speaker 3 And he was so offended, he was like, you know what? I'm not going to go through with this. And

Speaker 3 we lost him, we meaning the American taxpayer who supports all this. If you think of that example in all of the different places where we have not been hiring the right people

Speaker 3 you get this slowdown in innovation you get a slowdown in research you get a slowdown in well-functioning organizations and institutions and it's like a slow malaise so how do you stop the rot you have to stop it at the top and you have to do something that is meaningful and if it requires us to at least threaten

Speaker 3 Harvard. And by the way, look, let's be honest, it's called Harvard Corporation for a reason, right? It's run like a corporation.

Speaker 3 It is an asset manager that may happen to have some educational things that they do on the side, which increasingly are not what we need it to do. And more importantly,

Speaker 3 it doesn't set the vanguard for how everybody wants to copy. And everybody used to want to copy Harvard.
And now what they're copying are not the things that help us.

Speaker 3 So we have to find a way of waking them up and saying, guys, you have a responsibility for America.

Speaker 3 And maybe this is what it takes. And I hope they take the medicine and listen.

Speaker 1 Well, the Colson brothers told us on a previous episode. They were just funding researchers and letting them pick their own research to a certain extent.

Speaker 2 Tim, how would you play up your Indian-ness with Jerome Powell? What did he say?

Speaker 2 I asked him. Is the best thing I've heard all week?

Speaker 3 I've asked him. He was told to play up his Indian-ness.
And he was like, well, what does that mean, my Indian-ness?

Speaker 3 And they were like, well, you know, talk about your love of Indian dance and Indian food. And he was like,

Speaker 2 are you kidding me?

Speaker 3 Like, is this a serious conversation?

Speaker 2 I'm going to see Rom Powell sitting there and go, we were on the fence about you.

Speaker 2 You showed up with this butter chicken.

Speaker 2 The chicken Machni. I was going to bring it up.

Speaker 2 He came in here with Sag Paneer. And he was like a brand guitar.

Speaker 1 He starts playing the sitar.

Speaker 2 And it's like, what do they do? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Who's that guy showing up at a rich show?

Speaker 2 It's the chairman of the mortgage market.

Speaker 1 It's absolutely worked out. Hey, Tim, if you were in charge of of this, because we do have some ins with the administration, maybe you should be directing some of this research.

Speaker 2 What would you say? If I wanted to study anything at Harvard, it would be Brigitte Macron's gender. But I think we do have to focus on

Speaker 2 disease to an extent. But here's what I would say to add to that conversation.
I would say that like...

Speaker 2 These schools exist for a multitude of reasons, but one of them is to create a consensus among, you know, the wealthiest and obviously people that are expected to be the most powerful in society and to create a consensus about the values that are important to America at any given time.

Speaker 2 And I think the question should be, why

Speaker 2 are these values so important and to whom? I don't think this is altruism and it's about helping the working class or helping minorities or helping people get more economic justice.

Speaker 2 It actually seems to me quite a transparent attempt for certain people to keep positions of power and certain structures to stay in place while offering people this idea that there's a lot of change because there's a few ceremonial optical choices made where we're putting in a female CEO of color or someone who's Indian, but the internal structure stays the same.

Speaker 2 And if you just look at a school like Harvard and you go, oh, well, they're, yes, socialist in some respects, but in some respects, actually,

Speaker 2 you know, if you challenge the Ukraine war, if you challenge aspects of the American empire, if you challenge certain,

Speaker 2 look at all the wars. All of our wars are being sold with social justice.
A lot of our wars are being sold because,

Speaker 2 you know, if we don't see a national security interest in it, we're told that, well, people in that country are not being treated well. That country has values that we don't have in the West.

Speaker 2 And that may be true, but in many cases, it's not worth going to war over. And most Americans would say that.
So who exactly is benefiting from these programs and these values being instituted?

Speaker 2 It isn't low-income people in the inner city. It isn't, it seems to be kind of

Speaker 2 a lot of

Speaker 3 it's the opposite of inclusion.

Speaker 2 It's the opposite of inclusion.

Speaker 6 It's the opposite of inclusion.

Speaker 3 What has happened?

Speaker 2 It's the establishment trying to preserve itself

Speaker 2 by shutting out certain ideas and certain people and, you know, giving very ceremonial nods to, you know, play up your Indian-ness, play up this, play up that.

Speaker 2 But, you know, it's like when the CIA goes and she goes, I'm the first female drone pilot.

Speaker 2 And a lot of Americans are going, what exactly is our national security interest in a drone strike in whatever country? And do we need to be doing this?

Speaker 2 And should the money be better spent somewhere else? But instead of having that conversation, it's always ends up being hijacked.

Speaker 2 So this DEI to me just seems like a way for a lot of the same establishment people to keep their power and influence by offering these very optical

Speaker 2 advancements to people that may,

Speaker 2 you know, pay lip service to certain ideas. But when it comes down to it, they're very loyal.
to the same power factions that, you know, have always kind of driven the narrative in our country.

Speaker 3 Completely agree.

Speaker 1 What happened during comedy to you, Tim, and your cohort during that like peak DEI, peak cancellation? It felt like the Overton window was closing pretty harshly on you guys.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of attempted cancellations of comedians, people trying to secretly record you. You got those yonder, I don't know what those are called, those bags that

Speaker 1 you put the phones in. What was that?

Speaker 2 I was told by countless executives to play up my Indianness, and I tried. You tried? But it was just in bad taste.
Yes.

Speaker 2 It was in terrible taste when I came in and I tried to be Indian and it was supposed to go. No, I think here's what it was.
I started, you know,

Speaker 2 having more of a career in, let's say, 2016, 2017, 2018. And then we were kind of on this path where you'd go have a meeting in Los Angeles with people about doing a show or whatever.

Speaker 2 And they would start. All of these words and verbiage would creep in.
They go, we're really interested in marginalized voices, elevating voices that haven't been heard.

Speaker 2 We're interested in empowering people. And these are LA executives.
They're monsters. They care nothing about anything.
And that's where they're good at their job, right?

Speaker 2 The only reason you can be good at your job as an executive in the entertainment business is to really not look at human beings as humans. You have to look at them as objects.

Speaker 2 They're objects. It's what you do.
Manipulate. Pawns on the chessboard.
It's what it is. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 If I called my agent today and said, I'm really tired doing everything I'm doing, he'd say, have you tried drugs? Like, they right. This would be, I'm

Speaker 2 just wondering about that because you have such high energy.

Speaker 1 I don't know why you're not embracing the cocaine.

Speaker 2 I don't need it. I don't need it.
Yeah, but if I do, and by the way, if I do, they'll provide it to me. Here's the deal.

Speaker 2 The way that town works is you have a bunch of people that believe in nothing and they can't.

Speaker 2 They can't and be effective. They have to go whichever way the wind is blowing.

Speaker 2 So when you have these people pulling up in Porsches with their houses in Malibu and they're coming and they then have a sudden interest in empowering people.

Speaker 2 These people were throwing women off into the Santa Monica Canyon for years.

Speaker 2 So it was this weird time where you had the worst people in the world trying to convince you that they had an interest in marginalized voices because they thought there was money there.

Speaker 2 Well, guess what? It turns out Americans don't really like to be patronized and they is they were never making TV that minorities wanted to watch.

Speaker 2 They were making TV that guilty white liberals wanted to watch, and it didn't make any money. Nobody really liked it.
A lot of it kind of faded away.

Speaker 2 And as soon as it stopped being profitable, all the executives in Hollywood that supposedly cared so much about the marginalized voices rediscovered the profit motive.

Speaker 2 They rediscovered the idea that they had to make entertaining stuff. They rediscovered viewership.
They rediscovered numbers.

Speaker 2 They rediscovered all these business fundamentals that they had ignored ignored because they thought there was going to be a pot of gold at the end of all this elevating and empowering, but there wasn't because it was rejected largely by people.

Speaker 2 They didn't want to watch it.

Speaker 1 They were canceling all of you guys. They were canceling.

Speaker 2 Well, they were trying to.

Speaker 2 They were trying. It didn't work.
Because people

Speaker 2 at the end of the day realize that people are flawed, fallible, and human. And that's what makes them entertaining.

Speaker 2 You don't want a perfect person doing anything because that person is not going to be terribly interesting. You want someone who has flaws and has problems, obviously, within reason.

Speaker 2 You know, so I think that Tim, can I ask you a question?

Speaker 3 Let's say that you are.

Speaker 2 I support Harvey Watson. Go on.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 I didn't know if that was. No,

Speaker 3 let's say that you are in charge of education in America.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 What would you do? Where would you start? What would you do?

Speaker 2 If I was in charge of education in America, number one,

Speaker 2 I would try to

Speaker 2 assert the idea

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 higher education itself needs to be for a purpose and that there needs to be more of a purpose driven from middle school through high school.

Speaker 2 We need to start getting kids to think rationally about their skill set and their ability.

Speaker 2 And I don't think it's a good idea for these kids to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of loans to, you know, go away for four years, not have a solid plan and not execute and then graduate mired in debt without really a pathway to paying any of it back and spending their 20s and maybe a good part of their 30s incapable of owning a home, incapable of owning anything with no real investments.

Speaker 2 So I think this idea that like you should follow your dream, which is this toxic American idea that I don't subscribe to.

Speaker 2 I think people have natures, they have skill sets, and they actually have to do something within the realm of that. And it requires being honest with children, which no one wants to do.

Speaker 2 And I would try to re-engineer education to be a more practical place where you would apply some of the skills that you actually had.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to experiment or have freedom, but I do think that we've told a lie to people, which is that they can be anything they want to be and do anything they want to do.

Speaker 2 And by the way, and here's a bunch of loans to do it. Here's hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt.
So now you can go into debt without any plan or any logical sense of what you want to do.

Speaker 2 I think we should start putting people into a more realistic mindset in high school about what needs to happen. Otherwise, they're taken advantage of and abused.

Speaker 2 by these systems of higher education where they graduate mired in debt and without any type of standing in society.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 6 I want to add Jamas. Go ahead, Freyberg, and then I got a break in you.

Speaker 1 Sorry.

Speaker 6 I want to just address this because I think there's a moment here

Speaker 6 that I think will define

Speaker 6 a very different future for education,

Speaker 6 which is

Speaker 6 kind of a movement away from the current model of a school. AI is such a profound tool.

Speaker 6 The ability for AI to get to know your personality and just like teach my kids the way they want to be taught through conversation, through engagement, through dialogue, knowing that some kids want to ask questions and some kids want to just be told stuff.

Speaker 6 Some kids work at one pace, other kids work at another pace.

Speaker 6 And I know this idea of personalized education using computing has been around now for decades, but we really are in this moment where the idea of spending you know, your first 18 years of life in a classroom where you're being told stuff that is, quote, the truth, versus learning how to engage with the world, ask questions, explore your world, find and identify things that are interesting to you, have it delivered to you in a very personalized, meaningful, rich way that also makes you excited about certain things and helps usher you on to the next phase of your life of what do you want to do with this and get kids out of this idea that you've got to go get the degree in order to get the job.

Speaker 6 And then I think that the workplace will adjust to that. I forgot who it is, whether it was Palantir or someone.

Speaker 2 Just started doing this.

Speaker 2 They just did

Speaker 6 a program where they're like, skip college, come and do your basically your apprenticeship here. So instead of going to college,

Speaker 6 it's paid. You'll continue your education here.

Speaker 6 You'll work on projects, you'll make money, and you'll continue to have your development be done while you're learning a valuable skill.

Speaker 6 So I do think, like, as AI kind of takes over education, I do expect that the workplace will change, Tim, and we will start to see more of this integration between education and workplace enabled by this AI-driven kind of, you know, development system, which is, which is going to be radically different than what we have today.

Speaker 1 You f with this AI, Tim? You like comedians? Do they get

Speaker 2 with it? No, I'm a little skeptical of the tech people I talk about on my show. Of course, not you guys, but the other ones.
But the other ones.

Speaker 2 You know, you guys seem, you know, I think it's great. Palantir goes, skip college, come get involved in advanced weapons technology.
Sure.

Speaker 2 I think that's a phenomenal idea, actually. It's like

Speaker 2 come be a drone here at Palantir. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 But I like using my brain at the moment, but if it starts to fail, I imagine it will.

Speaker 2 I will use A. I know people that do use AI.
My producer might use AI. I don't know.
You probably won't tell me. But I do think that, listen.
Have you used it to learn, Tim?

Speaker 6 Have you used it? Have you ever done any of the chat apps where you can talk to it and like, hey, you want to learn or get smart on something or get caught up on something?

Speaker 6 You can literally just ask questions and have a conversation with it.

Speaker 2 We've done it.

Speaker 2 We did it on the show. We had an AI bot do a deliver rant in the style of me.
It got pretty close, not good enough yet, but it was pretty close and pretty interesting to see

Speaker 2 how advanced it is right now and then how advanced it's going to be. You know, I worry a little bit about what you're going to do with all of these people once AI starts taking a lot of these jobs.

Speaker 1 The cashiers, the Uber drivers,

Speaker 1 door dashers, all this job people.

Speaker 2 People like you said five years ago, I was a tour guide on a double, not five years ago, but seven or eight years ago, I was was a tour guide on a double decker bus in New York City while I was learning how to be a comedian.

Speaker 2 And I was showing people the Empire State Building and like all the 9-11 Memorial, whatever. And these are the types of jobs.
I was making $13 an hour.

Speaker 2 And I was obviously, you know, it wasn't well paid. It wasn't an amazing job, but it offered me the freedom to get good at something else.
But I was taking a lot of risk to do it.

Speaker 2 And I tolerated that level of risk because I believed what I was doing was the right thing, the right course of action. But it's jobs like that that allow some of the most interesting,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 like weird lives that people should be able to live if they want to.

Speaker 2 I don't think everybody may want or need

Speaker 2 to have a full-time job. There are people that have retired and go, I'd like to be a tour guide or I'd like to work at a museum a few days a week.

Speaker 1 Did you find your stand-up was being on the double-decker bus? You know, were you able to put one-liners in there?

Speaker 2 I was able to do all kinds of stuff like that. So to me, it's like those jobs, right? Yes.

Speaker 2 Some of those, I don't think the entire economy should be the gig economy, but I do think some of those jobs that have got to be eliminated by AI are the jobs that allow people to get good at other things while they're doing them.

Speaker 2 So people that are in entertainment and music and stuff like that, we want them to be able to support themselves while they enrich us culturally in other ways.

Speaker 1 Crazy breaking news story right now.

Speaker 1 Sorry, Sax, I didn't mean to have this blindside you here, but and I know you were at the administration.

Speaker 1 You don't speak for the administration necessarily on this issue, but it looks like the Federal Reserve has a new chairman.

Speaker 2 It's just breaking news here. That's so racist.

Speaker 2 It says, hop up the warm. Trump is named Shamath for the Federal Reserve.
I think all these fundraisers worked out for you, but there is a note that they asked Shamath to be more Sri Lankan.

Speaker 1 So if you can, to the extent you can be more Sri Lankan, Chamath is the president of the United States.

Speaker 2 Are Trump is Chamoth Sri Lankan? Is he really Sri Lankan? I am. I am.
But that's

Speaker 2 literally Sri Lankan. I mean, I read a great book about the Tamil Tigers many years ago.
Do you remember them?

Speaker 3 Yes,

Speaker 2 they invented suicide bombing.

Speaker 3 They did.

Speaker 2 Listen, be proud. Be proud of stuff.

Speaker 2 Even if it's lead brains.

Speaker 2 I'm saying be proud of stuff.

Speaker 3 That was the ethnic minority that was fighting for a homeland. I was part of the ethnic majority.

Speaker 1 You were the one trying to avoid the suicide mess.

Speaker 3 No, my dad was the one that spoke out against the war. That's why we had to skedaddle and claim refugee.

Speaker 2 Potato potato. I support both.
I'm the only person with the moral courage to say I support Israel and Hamas and Russia and Ukraine. You can just want to see a good game.

Speaker 2 You can want to see a good game. You don't have to take a warning.

Speaker 1 Listen.

Speaker 2 You like a lead change. It really depends in Beverly Hills who I'm having lunch with and what type of Middle Eastern they are, because I can go either way on that.
And I think it's important.

Speaker 2 You don't want to be too rigid in this economy. You need to be able to move into things.
And I got to read the audience. I see both sides.
I've read the Israel stuff and the Palestine stuff.

Speaker 2 They're both right. So guess what?

Speaker 2 That's right. So at the end of the day, what's right into Timmy's career is that an approach you could take.
What's right for me? What's the easiest lunch? What's the easiest afternoon for me?

Speaker 2 What, you know, that's

Speaker 2 the least resistance.

Speaker 2 That's the move for me always all the time you know right so you know absolutely absolutely i don't what did what putin did was it right no but do i like the idea of the oligarch the furs the boats the kind of lifestyle yes the kind of traction

Speaker 2 yes that to me is spoken to me somebody said to me once i'm you're spiritually russian so i think i i have that in me so i just can't ignore it so where how would you rank your dictators are you are you you're it sounds like you're a putin guy or you're Putin has a lot of class, whether you like him or not.

Speaker 2 He has a lot of class. And

Speaker 2 number one, people do fall out of windows in London. It does happen, actually.
Accidentally. So it's not always, you know what I mean? It's like sometimes somebody does take a spill.

Speaker 2 It's not always him.

Speaker 2 I like him. I like Kim.
I think it's Jong-un in North Korea.

Speaker 2 I like him. He has style as well.

Speaker 4 Don't forget Zelensky.

Speaker 2 That sucks. Zelensky.
I know,

Speaker 2 He's kind of new series.

Speaker 4 He just extended military.

Speaker 2 But can you imagine the military to not bring up Ukraine?

Speaker 2 Be careful.

Speaker 4 He just extended martial law.

Speaker 2 There's no way.

Speaker 2 By the way, I like Sachs on this. And I think when Nang told Putin that a comedian was now the president of the Ukraine, Putin probably said, listen, are they serious?

Speaker 2 Are they even trying anymore?

Speaker 2 He goes, is the CIA even trying anymore? Are you serious?

Speaker 2 Wait, the guy who played the president in a TV show is now the actual president? Yes. And Putin's getting this information sitting there in his palace.
Like, I mean,

Speaker 2 so, I mean, listen, all wars tragedy. It's all terrible and bad.
But, you know, we also, I think David's done a phenomenal job, by the way, of looking at how you get to certain places.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then I think the

Speaker 1 private shows, Tim. The private shows with the dictators, the despots, the monarchies, they pay what, three to one, four to one?

Speaker 2 They want to laugh, these people, they want to laugh.

Speaker 2 You know, I mean, it's Duterte likes to laugh. So, you know, these people want to laugh.
And I'm not here. MBS wants to laugh.
I'm not here to pass judgment on the audience. I'm here to bring.

Speaker 2 Well, it's actually funny. I did like one private gig.
I don't get booked on a lot of private gigs, but I got one big Bitcoin guy in Romania had me go to his birthday party.

Speaker 2 And it was just this older oligarch type guy, and they all spoke Romanian, and it was very hard. And they paid me $100,000 to do 20 minutes, and they didn't really understand anything.

Speaker 2 And then one guy just stood up, and I guess he recognized me, started yelling, Joe Rogan, Joragan, and then sat down.

Speaker 2 So I am open to, I'm open to performing for anyone, really, truly.

Speaker 1 Anyone, Edi, I mean, Iran, you could just, Kim Jong-un, just send him a ticket.

Speaker 2 Hey, is the money

Speaker 2 clear? Is the money green over there? The money's not clean, but that's got to be another cleaner. Is Iran that danger? I mean, all I hear now every every day is Iran's coming to kill everyone.

Speaker 2 Is that true? I don't know. I'm okay.
Are they invading? Is Iran landing in

Speaker 1 building nukes? Maybe you want to wipe out one or two countries. A little genocide.

Speaker 2 Wish to film. How far are they along on those nukes? We don't know.
80%.

Speaker 1 80% of them.

Speaker 2 You think 80%?

Speaker 1 They're perpetually at 80%. We just keep knocking out the last 20 as I think the approach.

Speaker 2 I just don't think we need to put it on the ground there. I don't think we need to do this again.

Speaker 3 The two of you are the living embodiment of ADHD.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Well, speaking of ADHD, do we want to go ADHD or science? Tim, J.

Speaker 4 Cow falls for every pro-war narrative there is.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 4 He's like, I'm against war, but then he falls for every single narrative they bring.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 And what a great job you guys have done ending the war on day one of your administration. Congratulations.

Speaker 4 At least he's trying.

Speaker 2 Wake me up when you actually accomplish something.

Speaker 2 Defend the administration. We've actually ended it spiritually.
We've ended it spiritually. We have.
We no longer believe in it.

Speaker 2 It's actually happening in the physical world, but actually, spiritually, the war is over.

Speaker 1 Yes. So you're manifesting the end of the war.

Speaker 2 Well, it's over for me. The Ukraine war is fully over for me.

Speaker 4 Zelensky refuses to make a deal. You saw what happened at the White House.

Speaker 1 I mean, if only we had a deal maker to help with this.

Speaker 3 Jason, you know how you would know this for sure?

Speaker 3 Because my intuition tells me that what Tim just said is totally right is the number of Ukraine flags that were taken off of profile photos. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Along with the pronouns.

Speaker 2 No, even though it's a joke, I am being very dead serious. The idea of it has ended.
And it's now just about

Speaker 2 a border negotiation. It is no longer a, you know,

Speaker 2 totemic struggle for freedom or whatever

Speaker 2 it was being sold to us as.

Speaker 3 Totally agree.

Speaker 2 Jake House still believes that.

Speaker 1 You can speak for yourself.

Speaker 1 I don't believe the free countries, just to be clear.

Speaker 2 I believe the free countries should stop the

Speaker 1 non-free countries from invading them. That's it.
It's a pretty simple philosophy. Freeberg, what's in science?

Speaker 2 Tim, at the end of the show, we like to do a little bit of a lot of Vice documentaries about the Ukraine being the most corrupt country in Europe and like a white supremacist country and all these.

Speaker 2 What happened to all those Vice documentaries about that? They seem to disappear.

Speaker 2 They seem to disappear very quickly when Ukraine became a bastion of freedom and love and opportunity and equality.

Speaker 1 Now you're speaking Sachs's language.

Speaker 6 Oh, look at that smile on Sachs's face.

Speaker 4 Well, Nick, just put this on the screen. I mean, this just happened yesterday.

Speaker 1 Oh, God.

Speaker 1 Now we've started the Ukraine vortex.

Speaker 4 Ukraine's parliament sends martial law to all our people.

Speaker 2 It seems extreme.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no big deal.

Speaker 4 They cancel elections. They cancel freedom of the press.
They cancel freedom of religion. Zelensky's political opponents, their assets have been seized.
They've been in prison.

Speaker 2 No big deal.

Speaker 1 His favorite dictator is Putin as well.

Speaker 2 Hey, Dave, Freebridge. Who's the first leader after 9-11 to call the United States and express sympathy? I believe it was Vladimir Putin.

Speaker 2 How many times has Vladimir Putin threatened American interests over the last 20 odd years? Like, has Vladimir Putin, has Russia been an existential threat to America?

Speaker 2 Have they disrupted huge amounts of our trade? Have they,

Speaker 2 it seems to me very

Speaker 2 NATO.

Speaker 4 He wanted to be our ally.

Speaker 2 We were faith. But you know what the best quality of Putin is?

Speaker 4 We're not funding him. He's not asking for American money.
The rest of these dictators, we keep funding.

Speaker 2 He's not asking for a dollar. I also like that he's well-read.
It's well-read.

Speaker 2 But he's not coming to the White House begging.

Speaker 4 He's not coming to the White House every three months begging for more

Speaker 2 hundreds of billions.

Speaker 2 He's into a lot of money. Any criticism of the Ukraine war means that you love Putin and want to live in Russia and think Russia is great.

Speaker 2 It's a very weird Manichaean sense of good and evil that was instituted by George W. Bush right after 9-11 when he said, you're with us or against us.

Speaker 2 And with us means we're going to democratize the Middle East, which I fell for because I was, you know, 17 and on cocaine. But in hindsight, it didn't work tremendously well.

Speaker 2 And I just, it's always very skeptical. I'm very skeptical of these narratives where they say, so if you find any fault at all in what you're doing, in what we're doing,

Speaker 2 you're aiding and abetting

Speaker 2 a dictator. It makes no sense to me.

Speaker 1 Speaking of the 90s and cocaine, Friedberg, what's inside?

Speaker 4 You'll notice he's moving on, Tim. He doesn't know how to respond to that.

Speaker 1 So no, no, Friedberg is really upset the last couple of weeks that he got preempted.

Speaker 1 I'm trying to do right by Friedberg and the Friedberg stands, who are just absolutely mental now that we haven't talked about his incredible victory on Jeopardy, and we haven't gotten to Science Corner in a couple of weeks.

Speaker 1 Congratulations. Tim, if you were ever, you have, what game show do you want to be on, Tim?

Speaker 2 You must none of them. None of them.
None. All the money on Science.

Speaker 1 Which one do you want to host, Tim?

Speaker 2 No game shows.

Speaker 1 You wouldn't host a game show. You must have been offered.

Speaker 2 No, never.

Speaker 2 I don't think I'm what they want for the game show.

Speaker 3 That's a money printing machine. You could get in a game show, family feud or something.

Speaker 1 We'll see.

Speaker 2 But I do.

Speaker 6 It all goes to charity.

Speaker 2 Was it, Freeberg, was it hard?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Well, I shot the quarterfinal and semifinal in the same afternoon. So I didn't have any, you know, you go away for lunch and you come back for the semifinals.

Speaker 6 And I did not know how to use that buzzer. And everyone else, I think, had practiced or figured that stuff out.
So it was pretty difficult.

Speaker 6 And then my brain was just like blank on some of these moments. You're just up there.
There's this intensity. You're in this game show.
And it's like, I know the answer.

Speaker 6 Why is it not coming out of my mouth? Or why did I say that thing that I know is wrong that just came out of my mouth? It's a little bit kind of scary how much you can do.

Speaker 1 Let's show the clip here, and then we'll go on to Science Corner. Watch this clip.
Watch this.

Speaker 3 Final Jeopardy.

Speaker 6 I'm in last place. So I was behind the entire game.
I was basically in last place the whole time.

Speaker 2 Playing catch-up.

Speaker 6 Short time. I could not buzz in in time.
Yeah.

Speaker 9 It all comes down to this. Final Jeopardy in a very close game.
Some Film festivals is the category. Here's the clue players.

Speaker 9 Called the premier movie industry event for the Balkans. This festival began 30 years ago while the city was under siege.
We'll begin on the end with Dave Friedberg, who had $8,700.

Speaker 9 And it looks like he changed his answer at the last minute. What happened here? He wrote down something and crossed it out and wrote Sarajevo Film Festival.

Speaker 9 We can read Sarajevo and that's the important part, right? We're going to give you credit. You wagered

Speaker 9 8,697 and now you have 17,397. You're ahead of Mina Kimes at the moment with 17,000.
What did she put down?

Speaker 8 I did my math wrong.

Speaker 9 Oh my god. She wrote down can

Speaker 9 and she wagered

Speaker 9 a thousand. That drops her down to 16,000.
That's wrong. So it comes down to Sean Gunn, who had 22,000.
Did he know it was a Sarajevo Film Festival? He said Bosnia, right country, wrong city.

Speaker 9 What did you wager? 12,001, 9,999.

Speaker 9 And from

Speaker 9 the day, Stay Freedom, come to me. What did he do? He did.

Speaker 2 Can I ask you a question? And

Speaker 2 this is a serious question.

Speaker 2 And it's not disrespectful. Why do they call this Celebrity Jeopardy? You're correct.

Speaker 2 I could not identify one of those people with a gun to my head. I didn't know.
There were 27. I didn't know any of them.

Speaker 2 I felt in place.

Speaker 2 I felt like I was in the place. I mean, I think the guy in the- Who are other two people.

Speaker 1 Well, James Gunn's brother, who was in,

Speaker 1 he played like the 17th guy in Guardians of the Galaxy, right?

Speaker 2 What is happening?

Speaker 2 I mean, if you're going to Marvel Universes' characters who don't have speaking roles, pull them up for a second.

Speaker 2 He has a non-speaking role in a Marvel movie. There's 1,400 Marvel movies, and this guy hasn't spoken in one.

Speaker 3 Come on, stop. Him.

Speaker 2 That's.

Speaker 4 Who is the other lady?

Speaker 2 I think she's. Who's that?

Speaker 6 I mean.

Speaker 6 She's on.

Speaker 6 She's a

Speaker 1 researcher on ESPN. And she does fencing, right? She's the fencing person from ESPN?

Speaker 6 Oh,

Speaker 6 I think she covers football and ESPN.

Speaker 1 Football or Foosball?

Speaker 2 Tim's right.

Speaker 4 Was this actually Celebrity Jeopardy or is this just like

Speaker 2 Jeopardy? Just call it Jeopardy. It could be Jeopardy.

Speaker 2 Easy Jeopardy. Just call it Jeopardy.
Just call it, hey, we're doing this thing now. They should do a comedian.
Charity Jeopardy.

Speaker 6 Okay, the finals are next Wednesday at 9 p.m.

Speaker 4 Have you actually done the episode?

Speaker 2 Have we done the finals?

Speaker 1 When is the final episode? How do we make money off this? How do we front run this? Oh, he's done it already. So you know the winner.

Speaker 2 Why don't we do a polymarket for this and we could all cash in and get off this show?

Speaker 2 We could all just cash in and this.

Speaker 5 Somebody can shoot this dog.

Speaker 2 There is a dollar number, JKL. There's a dollar number.
Hold on.

Speaker 2 Are people watching?

Speaker 2 10 times 30 million? 10 times 40 million? 30, 25, 30.

Speaker 2 Who's the first to play the writ for?

Speaker 3 Tim's asking,

Speaker 3 do the ratings go up or down for Celebrity Jeopardy?

Speaker 2 Down.

Speaker 1 Certainly down.

Speaker 6 They used to be good. So I think regular Jeopardy.
Well, they do it at 9 p.m. on Wednesday nights.

Speaker 2 Okay, so it's not even during

Speaker 1 a celebrity to go on this. If a celebrity goes on this and they're known for being smart, if George Clooney goes on, right?

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 6 I realized this when I got there, I'm like, wait a second, there's no upside in me doing this. I'm going to look like an idiot.
And I answered all these stupid questions wrong and I look like a moron.

Speaker 6 I'm like, why did I do that?

Speaker 2 That was not. No, it's a stupid show that should go away.

Speaker 1 Jeopardy should go away.

Speaker 2 No, I mean, it's like this idea that like all these people and nobody knows the hell they are.

Speaker 2 It just,

Speaker 2 you know, it just, people at home are going, who the hell? What the fuck is this?

Speaker 2 The lady from ESPN says Kant, like she thinks it's in France. Like,

Speaker 2 And this is just making people mad that go, hey, man, I got nothing going on. And these people are celebrities or idiots.

Speaker 6 I mean, same continent?

Speaker 8 She hit the same continent.

Speaker 2 It's just filling people with rage looking at these people that aren't even celebrities. And on top of that, are morons.

Speaker 2 I mean, you have an obligation to either be a celebrity.

Speaker 3 It did say the Balkans.

Speaker 2 Or be

Speaker 3 the Balkans.

Speaker 3 It did say the Balkans.

Speaker 7 It's a little rough. I mean,

Speaker 2 a little brutal. Hey,

Speaker 1 save the show, Dave.

Speaker 2 Please give us a science corner.

Speaker 6 I'll do a quick science corner.

Speaker 1 And the name of the game here, Tillin, just since your first time on the show,

Speaker 1 is somehow, if you can get around the horn and put in a Uranus joke,

Speaker 1 you'll just kill what the audience is.

Speaker 2 I'm going to try to keep it. My producer right now, we're setting up a company in Bhutan.
That's my whole thing now.

Speaker 6 Oh, you're going to be flipping H-100s?

Speaker 2 Excellent.

Speaker 2 I just learned so much on the front half of this show.

Speaker 2 It's a company in Bhutan. Give us the chips.
Wink, wink.

Speaker 2 You're not going to shit Beijing at all, wink. My godson.

Speaker 1 They go in the back, they go through the front, maybe the side door.

Speaker 2 There's my godson truly, I swear to God, they brought him to my home when he was four months old because they know I'm single and I have a little bit of money, not compared to you, but compared to these people.

Speaker 2 And they said, Would you, he's you, would you be his godfather? He's Chinese. Absolutely.
I said, high-end, let's go. Four years later, they tell me, they go, he's actually Filipino.

Speaker 2 I'm not even kidding.

Speaker 2 So, this is why you can't trust anyone in this country about anything.

Speaker 1 Even your adoption your

Speaker 2 oh my god corrupt adoption

Speaker 2 okay let's do a science corner science corner mitochondria or today is mitochondria therapy day so every cell in our body has mitochondria tim you know that right and uh yeah it's the powerhouse of the cell powerhouse of the cell exactly and it's a little organelle this is the last segment yeah you can drop off sex okay see you lies later

Speaker 2 sex i'll see you in moscow okay yeah

Speaker 2 Excellent. I'll see you at the

Speaker 2 food festival.

Speaker 2 You forgot to say, what is

Speaker 2 the Moscow Film Festival? I mean, yeah, I need to run to Sean Hannity's show, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 Oh, I know. Unfortunately, don't say unfortunately.
You can leave that in. I like it.
Absolutely. He's amazing.
Yes.

Speaker 2 I really enjoy you guys. Thank you for having me on.
I really learned this was amazing. And

Speaker 2 I'd love to do it again. I appreciate all of you.

Speaker 2 I think you're all great. And whatever you're doing on a side, whatever you people eventually get arrested for, I support you.
Just know that. I'm a supporter of whatever happens to Curry's podcast.

Speaker 2 Whenever it comes out that there's a reason why you knew so much about the Bhutan company, it doesn't matter to me. It's not.
I'm a fan.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you, Tyson.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Tim Dylan.

Speaker 1 Everybody watched Tim Dylan's special on the Netflix. Hopefully, he can can

Speaker 1 finally eclipse love on the spectrum. Love on the spectrum.

Speaker 2 Definitely.

Speaker 2 Okay, free burgers.

Speaker 2 And then there were three.

Speaker 6 You know what? Free Burgers. I'm going to say we do Science Corner as a standalone show, and we're going to launch.

Speaker 2 I'm going to do Science Corner with you.

Speaker 1 You do Taft's Corner with me.

Speaker 10 I'm going to eat lunch. I love you guys.

Speaker 5 We're doing Science Corner. Let's go.

Speaker 1 I got it. I got your Science Corner.
I'm with you to the end, brother. Free birds, me and you, buddy.

Speaker 1 Tell me about science quarter. I'm interested.

Speaker 6 You're interested. We've got no listeners.
We've got no audience at this point.

Speaker 10 I'm here for your segment. Go ahead, David.

Speaker 6 For the four of you and Chamoth.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 6 So mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell, as Tim just told us, educated us, right? So every cell has hundreds of mitochondria. And mitochondria are what are called organelles.

Speaker 6 They have their own DNA. In fact, evolutionarily, mitochondria mitochondria were bacteria that basically ended up in the symbiotic relationship with what became our cells.

Speaker 6 So we each have mitochondria, hundreds of them in each one of our cells. Each mitochondria has its own nucleus and has its own DNA.
And the mitochondria make the energy that the rest of the cell uses.

Speaker 6 That energy is called ATP, and it eats up glucose or it eats up ketones if you're in ketosis. And it uses that to make the ATP.

Speaker 6 So every cell in our body gets its energy, which is what it uses to function from the mitochondria.

Speaker 6 And so there's been a lot of research into the relationship between mitochondria and aging and that dysfunctional mitochondria, as they start to break down and stop working and have damage, may actually be a key driver for many diseases that we experience as humans, including many cancers, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, ALS, features of autism, muscle tissues being weak, et cetera.

Speaker 6 So as the cells get older and the mitochondria stop working, we make new mitochondria, but over time, the DNA degrades and the mitochondria become less effective and there are fewer functional mitochondria per cell.

Speaker 6 The cell stops working right.

Speaker 10 Can I assume that?

Speaker 6 And eventually the organism stops working right.

Speaker 10 Have you learned anything about the connection of creatine to mitochondrial health?

Speaker 6 It's part of some of the processes, but there's some separate research on this, but it's definitely worth spending time on.

Speaker 6 We can talk about

Speaker 1 getting five grams or 10 grams of creatine.

Speaker 10 It's becoming like a trend. Yeah, I think it's low.
Yeah, no, five grams. Yeah, something like that.

Speaker 1 It's trending on Twitter. I think it's kind of like a meme or a joke in addition to being.

Speaker 10 I don't think it's a joke. Is it, is it, but it does it,

Speaker 10 is there any science that backs that up or not really for mitochondria?

Speaker 6 There are questions on this, like, do you want to focus on things that are increasing biogenesis, which is creation of new mitochondria? Does that create a better benefit?

Speaker 6 On the creatine work, I've read some of these papers. I actually tried it for a while.

Speaker 6 I personally had an allergy to it, which is kind of rare but happens but anyway we can talk about it further so so one of the key things was um there are three papers that i wanted to just highlight that kind of follow an interesting theme the first one was from 2023 from wash you in st louis and this paper nick if you could just pull up that image of

Speaker 6 mitochondria being transferred These folks identified and demonstrated that mitochondria can actually transfer from one cell to another.

Speaker 6 So if you've got a a cell that's got damaged or dysfunctional mitochondria, they've identified three mechanisms by which mitochondria can move into a cell that needs more mitochondria that are working and are more functional.

Speaker 6 That's something that's been theorized for a long time. People have said, oh, well, we think mitochondria transfer, but there wasn't really evidence of this.

Speaker 6 So, as of two years ago, these guys provided very good evidence of mitochondria that we can now put into cells. If it's floating around, it can make its way into another cell.

Speaker 6 And as a result, it can rejuvenate or provide energy to a dysfunctional cell, which might improve dysfunctional tissue or improve disease.

Speaker 6 The second paper was done last month out of Columbia University, and this was the first mapping of the mitochondria in the human brain.

Speaker 6 And so these folks created 703 tiny cubes of brain from a person that passed away, a 54-year-old donor.

Speaker 6 And then they analyzed the mitochondria in each of those cubes, and they used that to make a map of mitochondria in the brain.

Speaker 6 And what it showed was that different parts of the brain, different cells, had different amounts of mitochondria and different mitochondrial function, which actually starts to highlight how that difference in energy production in different cells and different parts of the brain may actually cause some of the things like memory loss or speech impairment, or as we age, the fact that we end up being, you know, kind of forgetful or start to lose some of our capacity, that the mitochondrial dysfunction in the brain might actually be the key driver of that aging symptomology.

Speaker 6 The third paper, which just came out, came out of a team at Shejiang University in China.

Speaker 6 So, what these guys did, which was really incredible, is they took stem cells, so stem cells that they got out of human blood, and they took those stem cells and they figured out a way to treat the stem cells so that those stem cells would start to make an excess amount of mitochondria than they normally would make.

Speaker 6 In fact, they were able to get those stem cells to make 854 times the number of mitochondria that those cells would normally make.

Speaker 6 And those mitochondria were on average 5.7 times more efficient at making energy, ATP. So they created highly energetic mitochondria and they made a lot of them.

Speaker 6 And the idea that we can put mitochondria into our body or into tissue in our body to heal it or repair it has been something that folks have been trying to do research around for a long time.

Speaker 6 But the limiting factor is access to enough mitochondria.

Speaker 6 So this mechanism that they developed where they could take stem cells, make copies of the stem cells, make lots of mitochondria, and then they isolate that mitochondria and use it as a therapeutic tool.

Speaker 6 And they did it in cartilage that was damaged and they were able to heal that cartilage. So this is a group that does bone and

Speaker 6 tissue repair studies, but they applied the mitochondria directly into the area. where there was damage to the bone and the bone grew back and it actually impacted the healing in an incredible way.

Speaker 6 So this opens up the door to this whole whole new therapeutic modality, a new type of therapy called mitotherapy or mitochondrial therapy that based on the series of papers that we're seeing coming out recently, I believe could end up becoming a really incredible

Speaker 6 new therapy that may ultimately lead to the treatment for many diseases that we're kind of dealing with right now.

Speaker 1 So I just wanted to kind of like, would this be immediately applicable to, say, people with sports injuries, you know, meniscus, knees, ankles, you start to think about those bone spurs, chips that basketball players, football players go through.

Speaker 1 Would this be like the low-hanging fruit for this technology?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, what they did this in, and I think this was published in a research magazine called Bone or something, Bone and Tissue or something. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But they did it in the middle of the map.

Speaker 1 I let my subscription lapse. I got to

Speaker 2 remind you.

Speaker 6 They did it in a model, a mouse model of osteoarthritis, and it repaired this osteoarthritis. But that's exactly right.

Speaker 6 And so that's tissue where you can, using a microscope, you can actually see the healing happening.

Speaker 6 Or you could see this being applied, for example, to cerebrospinal fluid, where you could basically increase the mitochondrial, the energetic mitochondrial production that finds its way into maybe neuronal cells, into neurons in your brain, and improve

Speaker 6 your brain function. Or you could put it into damaged hearts after heart attacks and improve heart function.
So there's all these theories about how you could use mitotherapy.

Speaker 6 as this becomes possible to now produce lots of mitochondria and use it as a therapy that can then be applied to lots of diseases.

Speaker 6 So I think there's going to be a bit of a blossoming of research in this area.

Speaker 1 Shama, if they could take this, if they can get this going in the next two years or so, they could get this and Biden could actually compete with Trump for his third term if they could get this to Biden in time.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 2 microphone on?

Speaker 10 That's exceptionally neat. And I think that that's just a junk.

Speaker 1 Oh, now all of a sudden you're defending.

Speaker 10 By the way,

Speaker 10 did you guys see George Clooney?

Speaker 10 What do you guys think of his new haircut, his hair color?

Speaker 10 I noticed he was, he's dying his hair he said he was gray and now he must be it must be a for an acting job because his hit his hair i haven't seen this this is crazy he looks it looks like his face is melting oh my god he looks like he did a um i don't know like what do they call that hair coloring for men like you put it in the shower it looks very weird well he just did an interview explaining his whole op-ed on biden but it's in it's in that clip where he looks very different what did he say on biden I thought he looked really he said he felt compelled to act and that it was a civic duty, although the dates don't match match up, but nobody ever questioned him about that.

Speaker 10 But he looked good.

Speaker 2 He did not get a call from a salt and pepper hair.

Speaker 3 Salt and pepper works 100%.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I mean, Clooney's a very handsome guy, but in that, in that interview, he did, I don't think he looked pretty.

Speaker 1 You guys watched The White Lotus, by the way?

Speaker 2 Did you guys watch The White Lotus?

Speaker 1 What do we think?

Speaker 10 Okay, so I don't know what it was, but I had heard from a bunch of you guys in the group chat that the show was not good. So Nat and I ignored it.
Then we started it. We watched one episode.

Speaker 10 Phenomenal. Oh, you loved it.
Well, we're one episode in, but it was great. And we were like, this is really good.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, I don't think it's terrible. And the kid, Schwarzenegger, Patrick Schwarzenegger, is a fan of All In, apparently.

Speaker 10 So Patrick Schwarzenegger. I can tell that that guy has one of the most interesting

Speaker 10 roles in that series. I'm really looking forward to him.

Speaker 10 Who else was really good?

Speaker 6 We DMed the other day.

Speaker 1 We're following each other, I saw, and he said, great pod. He DM'd me and said, great pod.
And I said, great job.

Speaker 10 And then I mentioned, you know, Patrick Schwarzenegger is your friend.

Speaker 1 I, well, I guess it's like, what does it mean, like micro-celebrity DM friends?

Speaker 6 I don't know. You could be on Celebrity Jeopardy, Jacob.

Speaker 1 I could literally be on Celebrity Jeopardy. I think, I think I would prefer to do Hollywood Squares.
I feel like Hollywood Squares, I could shine because you get a little one-liners in.

Speaker 1 Like, the jokes are kind of built into it. A lot more fun.
But I think we should do Family Feud versus another podcast squad.

Speaker 2 So, like, us versus.

Speaker 10 Why do you aim so high always?

Speaker 6 Oh, I think Family Feud's funny.

Speaker 2 I think it's funny. All right, everybody.
This has been another

Speaker 6 fun would be a lot of fun. That's a good idea.

Speaker 6 We should do it with Schultz and his crew, the four of them and the four of us.

Speaker 3 People would watch.

Speaker 2 No, you're incorrect. No, no, no, no.
People would love it.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. This is definitely something for John forgetting on.

Speaker 10 If we're done sniffing our own butts, let's go. We've got to go.
I love you guys.

Speaker 1 For the number one podcast in the world, Jumath Palihapatia, your chairman dictator, David Freeberg, your Sultan of Science, Tim Dylan.

Speaker 1 Great job today. And we will see you.

Speaker 10 And David Sox. Don't forget to.

Speaker 1 And I'm sorry, the czar. The czar.

Speaker 3 Huzzah to the czar, who apparently is back.

Speaker 1 Ken, it was

Speaker 1 back. Love you, boys.
All-in summit, September 7th to 9.

Speaker 10 Bye-bye.

Speaker 1 All-in fan meetups are happening. Episode 225, Saturday, April 26th.
Go to allin.com slash meetups to join and meet and host a meetup with other all-in fans in your town. We'll see you all next time.

Speaker 1 Bye-bye.

Speaker 1 We'll let your winners ride.

Speaker 1 Rainman David Sachs.

Speaker 1 And it says, We open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it.

Speaker 1 I'm queen of Kinwa.

Speaker 1 Let your winners ride.

Speaker 1 Let your winners ride.

Speaker 1 Festies are

Speaker 1 cold thirteen.

Speaker 1 That is my dog taking a notice in your driveway sex.

Speaker 1 Oh, man. My habitasher will meet me at what.

Speaker 1 We should all just get a room and just have one big, huge Orbie because they're all just useless. It's like this sexual tension that they just need to release somehow.

Speaker 2 We need to get Murphy's Ark.

Speaker 2 I'm going going all in.