James Gunn

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Speaker 1 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert.

Speaker 1 Round two of Superman Week. Yes.
We have the esteemed filmmaker James Gunn on. He's a producer, a screenwriter, a musician, and the co-CEO of DC Studios.

Speaker 1 He's made the best superhero movies. I mean, get real.
Guardians of the Galaxy. Groot.
Groot. Shout out, Groot.
The Suicide Squad, Peacemaker, Slither, Super, and now, of course, Superman.

Speaker 2 This was a very fun interview.

Speaker 1 This was a very fun interview. I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 And if you stick around, if you watch.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. If you watch, I am.

Speaker 1 Well, shit, I don't want to ruin it. We don't want to ruin it.
I'm in a. You'll hear it.
There's a visual. Yeah.
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Speaker 1 Something like there's a tour bus outside.

Speaker 2 That's Dex. He calls that Big Brown.
He travels around in that thing.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 2 Yeah. He'll tell you all about it.
He'll be very excited to talk about Big Brown. There's a big surprise for you coming your way.

Speaker 1 I wonder what that is. Wow, everything's normal.

Speaker 1 I fucked up testing so bad. That's what I was hoping you would recognize immediately.
Yeah, Jesus.

Speaker 2 This has never happened before.

Speaker 1 Wow, that's pretty cool. It's hard to tell the young Superman story with a 50-year-old actor, but

Speaker 1 could that be its own interesting element? We could do like the rehearsal. Oh, sure, sure.
So it could make you small and make a bunch of giant things around you. Well, I want to be bigger.

Speaker 1 I thought you'd be like the four-year-old Superman.

Speaker 1 I would do that as well. Like a little rattle.
Yeah. Do you remember in Super Friends Hall of Justice?

Speaker 1 Well, that's actually based on the train station in Cincinnati, the Hall of Justice, from Superfriends. Oh, it is.

Speaker 1 And that stayed the sort of model for what the Hall of Justice has been through the years in the comics and other animated shows.

Speaker 1 And we shot there for Superman, the group of the nascent Justice League. They aren't quite the Justice League.
are in that actual building. I'm going to be honest, I'm not a superhero person.

Speaker 1 I didn't read the comics. The one thing I loved is I watched Super Friends every morning before school, and I loved Super Friends.
Do you know about Super Friends? Yeah, you're too young.

Speaker 1 It's Superman and all of his bros and gals. You got Wonder Woman's in the mix.
Basically the Justice League of America for little kids.

Speaker 1 That was a Saturday morning show back when Saturday morning shows were everything.

Speaker 2 Did they invent any characters on that that then became big characters?

Speaker 1 Wonder Twins. Apache Chief, they've gone on to become in the comic.
And they were called like junior friends, the wonder twins. And they were largely useless.
They could work in tandem.

Speaker 1 One could become any animal and one could take the shape of any kind of ice. Do you remember all this when

Speaker 1 because i remember very little of it oh yeah this is the only one i really had so it's really seared in but she'd be like i'll be a um mastodon and then you'll be a bucket of water and i'll blow the water that i remember i remember wonder twins i just don't remember that they were called junior friends in your defense as i was looking up super friends this morning i was reminded they were lower tier they were like probies in a motorcycle game they were kind of earning their stripes yeah yeah

Speaker 1 being any kind of ice that's a horrible superpower well he could make people slide around a lot you'd be shocked how much ice can save the day yeah there's an x-men named ice man who's pretty uh pretty powerful he can make ice things to slide around can shoot ice at you say sliding a lot and that seems to be the only

Speaker 1 thing yeah well even the strongest person in the world if they're on ice and can't find purchase

Speaker 1 now i did get curious the super friends in hall of justice is virtually avengers does it predate avengers way before the justice league existed before most of the Marvel superheroes.

Speaker 1 So is DC the first? DC is the first. Superman's the first superhero.
He invented superheroes.

Speaker 1 So Superman was invented in 1938 by Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster in Cleveland, Ohio, where we shot Metropolis and Superman.

Speaker 1 They were two high school kids who created this concept that now is so pervasive in culture throughout the world. We shot in Cleveland because Cleveland has a lot of old Art Deco architecture.

Speaker 1 And then we just built up around that. But it has tons of beautiful interiors, beautiful exteriors.
There's actually a lot of beautiful stuff there.

Speaker 1 And then we also shot in Cincinnati because that's where the train station is.

Speaker 1 There's a place called Terminal Tower, and that's supposedly where Joe first imagined Superman jumping over a tall building in a single bound. That building is prominently featured in our movie.

Speaker 1 He couldn't fly at first, Superman. He couldn't.
He could leap very far. He was very strong.
I don't think bullets hurt him, but he couldn't shoot beams out of his eyes.

Speaker 1 They kept adding powers to Superman as time went on. Yeah, because if you think about the physics of the original premise, which is just he's stronger than everyone, and those physics are known.

Speaker 1 But when you introduce flying, that still doesn't have any explanation. No, it's very logical.

Speaker 1 I mean, he just can, but his strength wouldn't get you there.

Speaker 2 Is it his cape?

Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 Okay. I personally

Speaker 1 like to think, well, okay, what if this was real? So in the movie, we deal with, why are the glasses a good disguise? We actually deal with that because it always bothered me as a child.

Speaker 1 We deal with, he's strong, but he's not as strong as he was. He can't punch through a planet like sometimes he gets to be that strong.

Speaker 1 I don't want him to be that strong. Good, I don't either.
This is a difficult thing with Superman fans.

Speaker 1 Most people, when they say, why do they like Batman more than Superman is because Superman is just too powerful. It's like a copy.

Speaker 2 There's no mistakes.

Speaker 1 But a lot of Superman fans like the fact that he can beat up God. They want zoos.
They want the most powerful being in the universe.

Speaker 1 Not only is it hard to have stakes in a universe where he's the most powerful, it's also difficult to make other heroes mean anything at all.

Speaker 1 How much does Green Lantern mean if Superman can punch through his?

Speaker 1 So in my 10-year-old mind, the way I had come up with who was top tier Apex superhero, I was like, it has to be Green Lantern because he could just make kryptonite.

Speaker 1 Green Lantern can't make different elements. He can make constructs.
He can make shapes. Oh, he can't make iron.
He can't make gold. Metamorpho, however, who is in the movie, can make elements.

Speaker 1 He can make anything. Okay, because there was one episode of Super Friends that was great where it was like a reverse evil world.

Speaker 1 They would go there and there was evil Superman, and then Green Lantern had to go fight Superman.

Speaker 2 They're friends in real life.

Speaker 1 They're Paula Justice. They're super friends.
Oh, yeah. They're super duper friends.

Speaker 1 They're friends. Okay, now Cleveland, for folks who haven't been, now, coming from detroit it's a sister city and especially in its arc you too from st.

Speaker 1 Louis you know there's like a handful of these formerly robust industry centers st.

Speaker 1 Louis is the only city in the United States I believe big city where its population is smaller than it was in 1900 that's crazy yeah I think st.

Speaker 1 Louis is a small city in a huge metropolitan area so the metropolitan area is over 2 million but the city itself I would imagine is well under and I presume you were in a suburb there I was I grew up in a place called Manchester Missouri which was rural when I was young.

Speaker 1 I had soybean fields and horses that lived behind me. But as time went on, it became super suburbial, which it is now.
And your dad was a lawyer? Yeah. What type of lawyer?

Speaker 1 He did corporate law, but mostly dealt with health. So he dealt with big hospitals and things like that.
And you're one of six kids? One of six kids, yeah. And what order are you? I'm number one.

Speaker 1 Six kids in seven years. And my little sister passed away, so there's actually seven of them.
Oh, wow. How old was she when she passed away? Just born.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Not that there's any good version of it, but that beats two.

Speaker 1 Yes, it does. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Someone beats it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's a winner. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a pure victory.

Speaker 1 So, wow, mom went back to back to back to back. Oh, but this is very Irish.
Her womb just fell out. There's smoke billowing out.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Talk about a superhero.

Speaker 1 My God.

Speaker 1 There should be super wombs. I don't remember my mother.
Like, she's just always taking care of a baby. Yeah.
This is true. I remember my siblings, my friends.

Speaker 1 We kind of got to do whatever we wanted to do. I don't really remember my parents very much because my dad was always working.
He was always gone.

Speaker 1 And my mother was just always taking care of babies or cleaning. My neighbors, who lived next door to us for 30-something years, never saw my mom without fully made up, already.

Speaker 1 So she was like an ideal housewife. Six kids, never anything on the floor, ever.
Everything

Speaker 1 complexly clean. In its place.
Yeah. How have you now matured into an adult? Have you taken on that? Are you messy? I'm definitely not like my mother.
And as the oldest, were you

Speaker 1 taking on the role of defending the little brothers at school? We all did that. My family was tight for sure.
If somebody picked on my little brother, they could beat up. Yeah.
How many boys?

Speaker 1 Five boys, one girl. Yeah, that's too many boys.

Speaker 1 Where's the girl in there? She's in the middle. She's number three.
Her life was hell. Oh.
She and I are incredibly close, but we were not nice to her girl. Oh, no.
Yeah. How could she?

Speaker 1 She was the outsider. Oh.
and she was always so loud and well-spoken and powerful that it was difficult. If you think about the things I'm the most guilty about, it's just picking on my sister.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it's chicken or the egg. She might have been powerful because she was amongst all these boys and she had to keep up.

Speaker 1 I mean, she just always wanted to be a guy. You know, she was always trying to pee, standing up, and all of this stuff.
I plagued my little sister with this, too.

Speaker 2 She has two older brothers as well.

Speaker 1 But again, what the result was is she was leaving someone's house and she saw a man starting a fire on the side of the road by the Getty Center.

Speaker 1 She had her boyfriend call the police and then she wanted to make sure he didn't get away. And then she tackled the guy and held the guy while the police arrived.

Speaker 1 She saved all of Los Angeles by picking on your shit. I think by modeling such toxic masculine attributes, I think I may have saved at least a swath.

Speaker 1 And if the Getty Foundation wanted to thank me for $100 million, they should. But what was the vibe?

Speaker 1 I mean, I know ultimately we get into movies and stuff, but but what kind of group of boys were you?

Speaker 1 Because in my town, I drive Monica crazy with this ad nauseum, but a group of five boys, it was going to be the most predictable thing ever. They were going to get crazier as they got younger.

Speaker 1 And in my town, anytime there were five boys, they were constantly fighting somebody. Someone had pissed someone off.
What was the

Speaker 2 rough and tumble?

Speaker 1 I grew up in a place where there were fights. That was always a part of something,

Speaker 1 but I was never really a sports kid. My brothers all played sports.
I was just always an artist and played music and theater. And I was a punk rock kid.
I heard the Sex Pistols.

Speaker 1 I saw them on TV when I was 11 years old. And it fucked me up.
It was so cool. What about it? It was like nothing I had ever seen before in my entire life.

Speaker 1 I remember things visually, even though they're not the way they are. Totally aside, I was talking to Ryan Kukler the other day.
We were talking about how great the Black Panther premiere was.

Speaker 1 And I was with all his friends who weren't there at the time.

Speaker 1 And I said, yeah, I know this isn't the way it happened, but the way in my memory it happened was that people were so happy that they were literally doing somersaults and flipping around in the aisles.

Speaker 1 Sure, sure, sure. That's really what I remember.
That's not true. It's like, I remember the vibe, and then I remember I visually turn it into something else.

Speaker 1 When I saw the sex pistols, it was like seeing the edge of the horizon roll down to see a completely other planet that I didn't know existed right in front of me, another world.

Speaker 1 Well, Sid Vicious is cut up. He's bleeding a lot of the times he performs.
He's got some safety pins in his lips and in his chin. You're seeing guys with some body modification.

Speaker 1 The rage of Johnny Rotten as he sang, but also it was the crowd, yes, and the safety pins and people and the anarchy symbols. And it was not something I liked.
I was kind of scared by it. Yeah.
Yes.

Speaker 1 But I was totally intrigued and I couldn't stop thinking about it. Yeah, there's overlap between horror movies and early punk rock.

Speaker 1 These were like like post-apocalyptic figures that were in real life. Yeah.
I couldn't get out of my head. And then eventually I bought the Sex Pistols LP.

Speaker 1 I was a little Roman Catholic kid because he's like, you know, I am the Antichrist. And it was like doing something really bad.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, it was like looking at porn almost, except for your angry little rebellious soul. So

Speaker 1 that changed everything. And so all the kids I started hanging out with were the punk rock kids.
All the music I listened to was the punk rock and the early New Wave stuff. That became my identity.

Speaker 1 That's the way I dressed. You know, I wore the ripped up t-shirts.
I shaved the sides of my head. I did it presumably nine years after you or eight years after you.
People were very into my look.

Speaker 1 It was absolutely not acceptable. Okay, it was rejected.
So I went to an all-boys Jesuit competitive high school in St. Louis, and there was me and my friends.
The fact that we existed was crazy.

Speaker 1 And so we knew every other punk or new wave kid kid in the city. We were all friends.
We had all somehow gotten there through media into being the small group of people in St. Louis.

Speaker 1 So on weekends, it was great because I felt like a king. Yeah, would you go to shows? Go to shows.
There was like a dance club called the Animal House that had three floors.

Speaker 1 And on the top floor was all the black music. The middle floor was the major like cover bands that were playing like Night Ranger and shit.
And then on the lower level was our place.

Speaker 1 It was all the alternative. Sometimes we'd go up to the top floor, but we were rarely ever in the middle floor because rap was also starting around that time.
I was into that as well.

Speaker 1 And I was into Prince. I once got into an argument with my dad over Christmas about Michael Jackson and Prince that was so angry that we almost came to blows.

Speaker 2 Is it too mainstream? Too happy? I like Prince's music better.

Speaker 1 I don't like his music that much. It's not about anything other than

Speaker 1 Billie Gene is okay. The off-the-wall stuff is better.
I like Jackson 5, but I like Prince way better. The irony was that Prince was much scarier to parents because he was much more overtly sexual.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Sister.
It was about having sex with his sister overtly. Yes.
God, the irony. Now, the irony, though, that Michael Jackson was the one that we all needed to be fucking worried about.

Speaker 1 Prince was largely not fucking because he was an opiate actor.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Don't sue me a state.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Word is. Yeah, yeah.
But I I saw Prince on the Purple Rain Tour, 10th row in Keel Auditorium in St. Louis.
Wow,

Speaker 1 I loved him. Now, back to being drawn to the sex pistols.
You're also then obsessed with horror movies. So are you the type that it might be counterintuitive?

Speaker 1 You might scare easily, but then your response to being scared is, and here's my question. Is it a stubbornness? Like, I need to not be afraid of that thing.

Speaker 1 There was something I liked about it as well as being scared. And I actually think my attraction to horror movies was different.
Okay, what was that? I think I liked the monsters.

Speaker 1 So when I fell in love with horror movies, I was very young. The greatest movie ever to me was Abbott and Costello versus Frankenstein because it had monsters and Abbott and Costello.

Speaker 1 So it was funny and still is a movie that I think is great. But I fell in love with the monsters.
I liked Godzilla and I liked Frankenstein and the werewolf and creature from the black lagoon.

Speaker 1 And I think I related to those monsters in a certain way. I felt outside.
So I don't think it was 100% I like being scared. I did like being scared, but I think I was attracted to monsters.

Speaker 1 And that's the thing I've kept with me more than a love of being horrified. I have a very difficult time being scared in a movie, but I love monsters and creatures.
Outcasts. Animals.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're mixing animals and outcasts is kind of a dream. Overlap.
Yeah, I love animals. I love the innocence of animals.
I love the humor.

Speaker 2 Are you attracted to human monsters?

Speaker 1 No, I'm attracted to monsters that are actually

Speaker 1 physical monsters. I don't care about Jeffrey Dahmer or something.
I don't like that.

Speaker 2 He's a piece of shit. I'm the opposite.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know what's funny is he's an outcast, but I'm not going to include him as an outcast.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no. You don't want him in this case.
I mean, they are definitely outcasts. Other outcasts.
How do you get your hands on an eight millimeter camera? I can't remember where I got it from.

Speaker 1 I had two of them. I had a silent one and then I had a sound one.
Does it record the audio on the film strip?

Speaker 1 yeah and so when you edit the film frames are like this so you have to cut with a splicer but the film strip goes eight frames above where the picture is because the sound goes through before the picture does so i'd have to fucking cut Oh, and a line.

Speaker 1 Cut up and then put it up onto the thing. And then you tape that entire long thing.
That's right. Fuck that.
You were doing that? You were editing it? With a little cutter.

Speaker 1 A little splicer, you know, a little machine that you watch the stuff go through. That must have gotten the girls so horny that

Speaker 1 let me tell you.

Speaker 1 But I did play in bands, so I was awesome. When do you start in, what's it called? The idiot? No, the icon.

Speaker 1 The icon. The icon? I don't start the icons until I was out of high school.
You were the lead singer of that band, but were you also playing an instrument? No. And do you have a good singing voice?

Speaker 1 No, you don't. But none of our heroes.
Let's go listen to the icons on Spotify in the section.

Speaker 1 It wasn't terrible, but I think the reason why I stopped playing music was because I really wanted to be the best at something. And I felt like I couldn't be the best.

Speaker 1 Yeah, were you a little saddened by that? Oh, yeah. That's what you wanted is to be Johnny Lydon.
A thousand percent. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you go to the University of St. Louis.
I go to Loyal and Marymount University first.

Speaker 1 Yes. So I played music with people here.
I went to film school here. For two years.
I got kind of pushed out after about a year and a half. I had big drug issues.
Great. That's what I was going.

Speaker 1 Are you sober? I've been sober since I've been 19 years old. Congrats.
Not only am I sober since I've been 19 years old, I got sober. Then my dad got sober.
Then my brother got sober.

Speaker 1 Then my other brother got sober. My next-door neighbor, who is like a brother to us, got sober, and none of us ever relapsed.
You infected in the best way. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I did have two years of doing ambient that really kind of fucked me up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, because I am chemically dependent.

Speaker 1 and so it's an iffy time because I took it every night and I did fucking weird things. Yeah, it's a weird drug.
Taking trips to 7-Eleven. Other than that, I've been sober.

Speaker 1 Well, as someone who's relapsed, I've come to look at sobriety. If in 24 years of your life, you managed to be sober for 20 of those years, I'm impressed.

Speaker 1 If you're an addict, I really admired what you did with all that. Oh, you know what? Did we ever meet before? No, we haven't, but we know Rosenbaum so well.

Speaker 1 You're friends with Bradley, you're friends with Rosenbaum, Lillard, AG, Seth Green. I don't know if I have anyone with more mutual friends who i haven't met yeah this feels like a very

Speaker 1 without a paddle premiere you did yeah but maybe the best premiere of all time do you remember it i totally remember it because i had so much fun that's where i met rosemary

Speaker 1 they flooded the tank and put boats in the water paramount oh and people watched the premiere from both yeah it was like a drive-in movie it was like broadcast on the background so cool and there were boats and shit that was my very first premiere it was the first movie i was ever in i was like these are great.

Speaker 1 I can't wait to see what comes next. And it never was good like that.
But no, we haven't met. Yeah, that's crazy.
It is crazy. Okay, so let's get into the drug issue at Loyola.

Speaker 1 Drugs are our favorite topic.

Speaker 1 It's interesting. I've never really talked about all this, but yeah, I did a lot of drugs.
What was your favorite? Marijuana. Great.
I smoked a quarter bag of weed a day. I woke up every morning.

Speaker 1 Some days I'd be like, oh, please just wait until 10 a.m. to start smoking weed.

Speaker 1 People talk about how weed's not addictive. I totally fucking don't buy it for a second.
I could not stop smoking weed.

Speaker 1 I smoked weed all day long, every day, and would try to curtail it, and I couldn't do it. And then I did a lot of cocaine

Speaker 1 and a lot of alcohol. And then I tried almost everything else.
But those were the things I did a lot of. I'm going to be very generalized right now.

Speaker 1 But in my experience, people were either Weed was their self-medication or Coke was their self-medication.

Speaker 1 I definitely found that people that were really drawn to weed i was not as a kid i did it of course but it wasn't my thing it was way more artistic way more kids who were in their room playing guitar kind of more isolation baseline would you say that was true for you no pretty social really social not really social because i have a part of me that goes away it's the part of me that writes part of me that would write songs i used to draw comic books and edit there's a part of me that likes to go away and be in my shell and then i like to come out and be with people which is why being a writer director makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1 I guess that's why I smoked weed and did Coke. Like, I liked both.
Time to go be social.

Speaker 2 Did you find it in college or were you already doing those drugs in high school?

Speaker 1 Did a lot of drugs from the time I was very little. I don't know if I did actual cocaine, but I did a lot of speed and things like that before college.
Yeah, in high school, pills would float around.

Speaker 1 Be like, we have beaners. We have Dexadrine.
And I remember taking a lot of pills that... were probably just caffeine pills

Speaker 1 because I remember when I took speed for the first time, it was not the same thing. And also, I got my glands swole so that my ears were sticking out.
Oh, that's almost like a superhero. He does.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And it was like so sore.

Speaker 1 Could I be a new guy called Cocad?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 There is a guy, Snowflame. Oh.
He's a cocaine-fueled super villain.

Speaker 1 Oh, he already exists. He's pretty cool.
He exists. Yeah, he's in DC Comics.
Oh, let's make him 50 and bring him out of the fold. I think you're good.

Speaker 1 That's like the first time you become a method actor. All of a I really believe in method acting.

Speaker 1 Okay, so when you said you were kind of shown out, I'm guessing you were performing pretty terribly, smoking weed all day at Loyola. It's cool, yeah.
Were you loving California, though?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I really loved California. I was very much an outcast in Missouri.
I was not that at all in Loyola. I felt popular.
Yes. Not only did I feel popular, I felt popular being myself.

Speaker 1 There were times that I felt popular. It would be sort of me subsuming who I was and dressing down.
And in California, I just was myself and I was just a regular popular kid. Yeah,

Speaker 1 yeah. And that was a weird feeling.
So you left there and then you ended up at University of St. Louis.
Yes, yes. It was you.
And what did you major in while you were there? Psychology.

Speaker 1 And you had gotten sober in that interim. Yes.
On your own? You just quit everything? No, no, no. I went through rehab.
No, no. Don't blame you.
No, no, I have a truly sober program every year.

Speaker 1 Inpatient rehab for a long time. Outpatient rehab.
I dropped out, started playing music, was going to school, was

Speaker 1 not really going to school, was mostly playing music, dropped out of school, moved to Arizona, played music professionally, played music for a couple of years, went back to school. And

Speaker 1 that's when I discovered truly writing. At St.
Louis. At St.
Louis, U. Okay, so you fall in love with writing.
Yeah, I had a creative writing class that I took. I wasn't playing music.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I got to figure out something I'm going to do. I said, I think I'm going to teach, but what do I want to to teach? I was already pretty far in psychology.

Speaker 1 So I had to finish that degree, but I was much more interested in English. And so I started taking tons of English classes, but I took a creative writing class with a guy by the name of Al Montezi.

Speaker 1 His task for us was to go home and write a play.

Speaker 1 I had a really shitty early computer and I wrote a play on there. And I'm like, this is the most fun I've ever had.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of it was then we took our plays into class and the guy copied them off and he gave them to other students so that we could read the roles.

Speaker 1 And this is so me, so I can't pretend I'm not this way. But everybody was laughing so much.
Yeah. It was like, oh my God.
Yeah. I'm being loved.
And I'm being loved for my brain, not the way I look.

Speaker 1 It's such a weird thing for a man to say, but that's what it was like for me at the time because I've always felt like I had been writing these lyrics that nobody could understand.

Speaker 1 And I got attention from the way I looked. It was like having my brain loved.
My whole life is different from that moment on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And in the way that I wasn't the best singer, I felt like, oh, I went from feeling kind of old as a rock musician at the age of 22 or 23 or whatever I was, which is silly.

Speaker 1 But at the time, I felt old to being really young as a writer.

Speaker 2 I also wonder, I mean, timing-wise, it probably was helpful that you had just gotten sober because there's a high in that approval.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was actually sober for a little while while by that time. I've been sober for like three.
I mean, that's not.

Speaker 2 That's not really

Speaker 1 when you're 19.

Speaker 1 It's a huge percentage of your life.

Speaker 1 I mean, one of the struggles for me in sobriety that I can start to take for granted is that I got sober when I was so young that being sober is way more a part of my life than using chemicals.

Speaker 1 And that is actually a little bit of something I have to be aware of in my life because there are times when I can kind of forget that I'm not just naturally so yeah yeah because that's something I actually have to put some effort in it's easier for me than other people that's why I think it's so hard to maintain sobriety from 19 onward because I at least took it to 29 but even at that I look at just my standard operating, you know, my modus operandi at 29, I had temper tantrums.

Speaker 1 I fought guys at stoplights. I was unhinged.
You get to this point where you're pretty stable and normal and I'm not up and down. I still had all those things.

Speaker 1 After getting sober, then I was crazy with sex.

Speaker 1 I was like, I'm an addict, you know?

Speaker 1 Then I had to deal with my anger issues because I'd get so fucking angry and get in fights. I just had to kind of go through one thing at a time until my wonderful, boring self today.

Speaker 1 Yes, but the danger of it is, is you're sitting around in your 40s and you're like, I'm not even the same dude that got sober. I'm a calm guy who's responsible.
I still am not. No, you're right.

Speaker 1 I found out. Yeah.
It can be quite misleading because because you're just trying to evaluate: am I the same person? Which is hard to do.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because you're like, I'm not that guy. I could probably dabble and be fine.
Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with

Speaker 1 four days. I would never do that.

Speaker 1 I mean, also, I do believe that I'm naturally an alcoholic and addict. Everybody in my family is.
I'm Irish Catholic. Like, it's just a part of our genetics.

Speaker 1 But I also think that because I was so extreme, so young, there were other things that were at play mentally, other anxiety and depression issues that made me take that on so full force.

Speaker 1 I only gained this compassion for us

Speaker 1 in watching my very best friend since I was 11 get sober five years ago. And in exploring his whole experience, we both had challenging childhoods.
His was infinitely more challenging.

Speaker 1 It was so fucking hard. And the only thing that he did for a period that I never got into is he huffed gas for like a year and a half.
That's a hard one. And it's such a terrible high.

Speaker 1 And I just had this moment where I realized, yeah, that was an improvement for Aaron. And that's where I got this just wave of compassion for us.
Yeah, you're trying to feel better.

Speaker 1 And if you feel so bad that a gas buzz is an improvement, fuck, my heart goes out for you. Yes.
But then I can extend that to us. You're suffering and it's a great fucking medicine.

Speaker 1 It works for a while. Yeah.
How do you not hurt? Yeah. Yeah.
It's not all about like, how can I have fun? Exactly.

Speaker 1 And even when you're taking on the wreckage, a lot of people will be like, look at the wreckage. And you're like, yes, but the wreckage is preferred to how I felt without it.
As crazy as that is.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you also get blinded to repercussions. So you start using drugs and you just get blinded to the fact that what is this going to lead to? You lose it.
Okay.

Speaker 1 So you end up at Columbia to get a master's in writing, but prose, not screenplay writing. Yeah, I was going to be a novelist.
Yeah. I was a novelist.
I wrote novels.

Speaker 1 My brother, Sean, and I, so we were the two fuck-ups of the family. I was the oldest kid and he was the youngest kid.

Speaker 1 The other kids are all pretty straight and pretty together, even my two alcoholic brothers who were much more straight than me.

Speaker 1 But we were the fuck-ups, and he got into Fordham University for acting the same week that I got into Columbia for prose. And it was like, what the hell is going on?

Speaker 1 This is an upside-down world in which we're getting into the two prestigious institutions. We were so happy.
We just kept saying two fuck-ups. Yeah.
So I went to Columbia.

Speaker 1 I wrote a novel as my thesis, got it published. The Toy Collector, which people have read.
And it's a a very transgressions novel.

Speaker 1 Of your accomplishments, I'm going to weirdly guess that might have never got better than getting a book published. No, I mean, not objectively, but for your life.
Pride of having.

Speaker 1 Oh, man. Here's the thing.
I got it published after I started doing okay here. There were a lot of other things that started happening.
But just you remember the SE envelopes?

Speaker 1 You'd send all these fucking publishers, hundreds trying to get stuff published. Did you go through that? I didn't do any of that.

Speaker 1 I got an agent that that explained it. And we had a couple people making offers on the house.
That's a different experience. I had to bid for it.
No wonder it's not high up there.

Speaker 1 I didn't remember sending like a thousand. If I would have got one back.
I went to Columbia, but one of the things is I got denied. I didn't get into Iowa.
I didn't get into NYU.

Speaker 1 I didn't get into Washington University. I didn't get into Georgetown.
I didn't get into all these different places. And I was like, I think I'm fucking great.
Like, what the fuck is going on?

Speaker 1 So then when I got the envelope from Columbia, I I was pretty happy. I bet.
It was like my number one choice, the hardest one to get into.

Speaker 1 I would have told myself, like, yeah, I'm so good at the elite school. Only the elite.
These other ones.

Speaker 1 That is what I told myself. Yeah.
I told myself they're looking for more commercial writers. They're looking for people that will actually go out there and make some money, not artsy folksy one.

Speaker 1 Because I always had a little bit in me of I wanted to make money doing this. Yeah.
Mine is really high.

Speaker 1 My fascination with money, my obsession, my chasing of it, my financial insecurity, those are raging. Where are you at on that spectrum? Well, I think it's changed over the years.

Speaker 1 Well, of course, because you get it, and it's not the fantasy. I like making money.
It's always been something that's been exciting for me.

Speaker 1 I remember the first time I made 500 bucks playing a show back in the 80s, and the guy came out and gave me this a lot of money. I'm like, oh, this is the best feeling in the world.

Speaker 1 Getting paid for doing something creative. Like, I was so jazzed by that.
Yeah. Everyone knows I'm pretty tough with my own business dealings, and I'm good at that part of it.

Speaker 1 It drives me to a certain degree, but it isn't the overriding thing. I was always trying to get love for most of my life.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And I think that changed at a certain point and that put things in a different perspective. Sometimes I don't know why I do what I do.

Speaker 1 I work so, so hard all the time and I like the results of what I do. I don't get a big charge out of being loved.
I have a lot of money.

Speaker 1 My life has been built so crazily on ambition, that is the only way my body knows how to act. Yes.
Yes.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert,

Speaker 1 if you dare.

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Speaker 1 What aspect do you find most grueling and which one's most fun? I like every part of making a movie. I I can't say that was always the case.

Speaker 1 It used to be that I liked writing and post-production, but didn't like shooting. Now I love it all.
Oh, interesting.

Speaker 1 So I will say that in terms of the pleasure I get from it, if I could write a movie, make a movie, edit a movie, and then burn it, I'd probably be happy.

Speaker 2 Oh, you don't like the after.

Speaker 1 I don't like having to deal with putting it out there in the world. I don't like to have to deal with it.
I mean, this is perfectly pleasant.

Speaker 1 I like doing podcasts where we're talking, but most of the press I fucking hate. Yeah.
The things I thought I'd like when I was young, like doing red carpets and stuff.

Speaker 1 I don't like people looking at me like that. So I don't like that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 That is self-actualization. You're there for the process, but you don't care about the result.
And then that's what we're striving for. But then it does come with, well, then what's the point?

Speaker 1 Well, and you want it to magically make a couple billion dollars without you going on red carpets. Exactly.

Speaker 1 I really want

Speaker 1 if I'm burning it after I'm done. I'm not sure I'm worth how much I'm getting paid to do it.
So I like doing it for the job aspect.

Speaker 1 And also I do feel a certain sense of calling in doing what I'm doing. Yeah.
I believe in God. I feel a certain calling in what I do.
I don't think it's like a saintly activity.

Speaker 1 But I do think that if I can make the world slightly better with stories about people that are good people or learning about themselves or in touch with their emotions, that it's something.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's positive. You're leaving the world better than you found it.
I hope. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Can you pinpoint the moment where that fell away-the approval or the needing external validation?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was when I got fired. It was 100% when I got fired.
I mean, I've talked about this before. It's not a big

Speaker 1 thing. Now, I haven't talked about it to you.
Can we stop two places before that? Yeah, sure. You come out to LA after Columbia.
No, I was in New York.

Speaker 1 I was in Columbia and I was still in grad school. And I got hired to write a screenplay for a movie called Tromeo and Juliet for $150.

Speaker 1 I wrote it, and then I found out I like being the guy. And so I took control, sort of became Lloyd's partner on that film.
And so Lloyd, what did he directly do?

Speaker 1 He directed Toxic Avenger, Class of Newcombe High, all sex and violence. I wrote the screenplay.
My next job was choreographing the sex scenes with the actors.

Speaker 1 But I got to learn about every aspect of filmmaking. The movie cost $350,000, which I couldn't believe was so much money to me at the time.

Speaker 1 I remember driving in the subway to set and going like, I can't believe that I wrote something. And then all of a sudden they're spending this enormous amount of money.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You learned about casting, about marketing, about putting the movie out in the theaters. We played here at the New Beverly every Saturday night.
Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 So it was much more helpful to me, I think, than film school because so practical. So you then end up writing a bunch of different things that end up working.

Speaker 1 I think most significantly, you do Scooby One and Scooby Two as a writer. That's when I meet Lillard.
He's just done Scooby Two. Yes, that's right.
So you're a pretty successful writer at that point.

Speaker 1 Yes. You know, you're talking about the novel.
Was that that exciting moment?

Speaker 1 The exciting moments for me and my career were 5.30 in the morning when Scooby-Doo first opened up and Lorenzo de Bonaventura, who was the head of production at Warner Brothers at the time, woke me up and he said, did you hear it?

Speaker 1 And I said, no, it's 5.30. What would I hear? And he said, it's the biggest opening ever in July.
And I knew that I went from being nobody to having a career in this industry. That

Speaker 1 huge. And then the first thing you direct is Slither.
Yes. Horror movie with incredible cast.
Yep. Made dozens of dollars at the box office.

Speaker 1 But it got really good reviews. I find that there's certain key moments in my life where I take a stand where you want to not, you want to retreat.

Speaker 1 And I took a stand, but it was going to come out and they came to me and they said, you know, it costs a lot of money to have these movies screened for critics.

Speaker 1 So I think we're not not going to do that. And what they were really saying was, we as a studio don't think that this movie is going to get good reviews.
So we're not going to screen it for critics.

Speaker 1 I went to bed that night. I'm like, you know what? I just don't buy that.
It's not going to get good reviews. I think it's going to get good reviews.

Speaker 1 And I called up Eric Newman, our producer the next morning, good friend of mine. And I'm like, we can't do it.
We got to fight this. And we went in and we fought it.

Speaker 1 And they were very great in that they listened to us and they did it.

Speaker 1 And it saved my career in a lot of ways because I don't know if I would have gotten those reviews if it would have helped me as much. You've got to be either a critical success.

Speaker 1 You need one or the other on your debut film. Otherwise, you just get lost.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're dead.
So it really helped me. And then that leads, you do also a superhero movie.
You do.

Speaker 1 Super. Yep.
Okay, so now we go to 2013 Guardians. It's a coup that you get that at the time because you had done some stuff.
Crazy. I was about to quit.

Speaker 1 You know, I had just done a video game that had a lot of fun doing. I had a deal to do a TV show, which seemed to be something that was happening in the air, which I was right about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because there's so much premiere television that was about to happen. Unless you're doing a Marvel movie, it's not culturally relevant anymore.

Speaker 1 So I'm like, why am I making movies when I'm just going to make TV shows and video games? Because I cared about being culturally relevant. I told my agents, I'm just going to quit making movies.

Speaker 1 I'm going to focus on these other things. And then Marvel called me in, which they had called me in before.
They knew I was a big comic book fan. I didn't think it was very realistic.

Speaker 1 I went in and they told me about Guardians and I didn't really 100% see it in the room, but on the way driving home, I started to see it come together.

Speaker 1 Was Chris involved yet or was just a property they wanted to explore? No, there was a script. Those main characters were already a part of it.

Speaker 1 So to me, at first it was like Bugs Bunny and The Avengers. How's that going to work? And I knew the characters from the comics, but mostly another iteration of the characters.
So I just wasn't sure.

Speaker 1 But when I was driving home, I saw how it could be. Number one, I saw the character rocket.
I went with my usual question: What if this was real?

Speaker 1 Okay, seems stupid, talking raccoon, but what if it was real? And I realized that he would be the saddest person in the universe and that he was totally alone. And that was sort of the seed of that.

Speaker 1 That's your bread and butter. It's my bread and butter.
And so then I started to see how it could be that space fantasy that I always wanted to do.

Speaker 1 It wasn't going to be like Star Wars, but that it could excite kids in the same way Star Wars excited me.

Speaker 1 They could get that same feeling of magic and novelty that I got when I saw C-3PO in the cover of People Magazine. They could get from Groot.
Yeah. Yeah.
I got the gig.

Speaker 1 I was with my girlfriend at the time in her apartment, and I got the call that I got the job, and I felt like Kelly Clarkson with the confetti. That's how I remember it, by the way.

Speaker 1 You were talking earlier. The way I remember it is I was Kelly Clarkson, and the fucking balloons and confetti and fucking bubbles are coming down on me as I get those phone calls.
Yes.

Speaker 1 You know, I loved Iron Man so much.

Speaker 1 me too also i had done favreau's movie just before iron man so i was like kind of close to him at the time so i think i got to see so much of how that came together and then the fight for downie and all that stuff i loved that one i want to credit he and dan liebenthal for kind of creating the marvel sense of humor i think they deserve a lot of credit for that yeah and then i didn't care about a bunch of them and then i saw guardians and i was like fuck me this movie is so original even within this genre and yeah more of Star Wars than it was per se Marvel convention.

Speaker 1 It's not really a superhero movie, it's not superheroes, they're just adventures.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it had a reach that was beyond. Like, I saw it, and I wasn't seeing any of those movies.

Speaker 1 I generally don't care about superheroes, it was so it transcended, and just right out of the gates, the opening, the music, it's such a big part of it.

Speaker 1 But I was trying to go back in my mind to remember where Chris Pratt was on this hierarchy. He wasn't yet the biggest star in the world, he had done Jurassic, not yet.

Speaker 1 Oh, no, no, he was the heavy guy on Parks and Rec. Yeah, so it's a coup on a coup because you shouldn't probably be there.
And now you come in, you go, okay, thanks for letting me in the door.

Speaker 1 Now I want you to bet a few hundred million dollars on this guy who's never done this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What was that process like? It was difficult and easy.

Speaker 1 It was difficult in that we auditioned literally 300 people easy for Star Lord. I screen tested 25 actors.
Wow. I could not find the guy that you liked.
Kevin Feige either.

Speaker 1 And I was so happy because we did the first screen tests and we screened them and i'm like they're gonna kill me he was such a specific guy the famous story around it is that i didn't want to see chris because i'm like this joker no way yeah and chris had been turned down by a lot of things and he didn't want to have to do that again sarah finn who's the casting director talked me into it i think she tricked me into it she set up the meeting without telling me but we were so desperate at that time i'm like i guess he's coming in he came in and he started his audition and i am serious.

Speaker 1 It was not 12 seconds into the audition. And I turned around to Sarah and I said, he's the one.
Wow. So then it was about getting everyone else on board.
Okay, so you do the first one.

Speaker 1 It's fucking outrageous. Now, in between Guardians two and three, now we've caught up.
I thought it'd be relevant.

Speaker 1 Before we evaluate you looking back at your career and deciding whether or not you're happy, I think we needed to know how we got there. Yeah.
So you had a string of old tweets that came out.

Speaker 1 You were making some jokes that were on topics people don't like. My novel, if you look at transgressionist fiction and Wikipedia, I'm listed.
Yeah. You know, it's like, that's what I did.

Speaker 1 I was a provocateur. They weren't very funny, but whose tweets are funny from 10 years ago.
It's also worth saying, I was early into Twitter too.

Speaker 1 And there's a long period of time where I think I'm just tweeting to whoever follows me. Whoever has followed me has declared they have a similar sense of humor as I do or point of view.

Speaker 1 And that it'll just end there, that somehow it has a perimeter. The biggest mistake I made was I one day posted, hey, everybody, it's fake retweet time.

Speaker 1 This is back in the day when you didn't just press a button and retweet someone. That wasn't possible.
You had to copy and paste and then put RT before the tweet.

Speaker 1 I realized you could do this and fuck over your friends. So I started.
tweeting the most horrible things I could imagine about my friends who have had to live with this to this day. Yes.

Speaker 1 Saying that my friend JP had killed a prostitute in Mexico. And I was retweeting all these horrible things they had said.

Speaker 2 Did they say it or were you making it up?

Speaker 1 I was just making it up. I made them say the worst things I could possibly imagine.
So this goes forward now to when all this stuff happens. And the meaning of RT has been forgotten.

Speaker 1 They think I'm tweeting at people saying these terrible things. Yes, yes, yes.
And these poor guys are caught in the crossfire, people who are not famous at all.

Speaker 1 And so I get fired. And really quick, when you get fired, did they say you're fired and we are going to do Guardians 3 without you? Is that a notion you have or no?

Speaker 1 At the very beginning, it didn't come up because Kevin was fighting for me to come back. But yeah, I got fired.
It was the worst.

Speaker 2 And were you angry?

Speaker 2 Sad? I mean, I assume a lot of things. What was the main emotion?

Speaker 1 There was a moment in which I said to Peter Safran, I said, I don't know what I'm going to do. And Peter is your longtime manager and producing partner who now co-runs.
Co-runs DC with me.

Speaker 1 Not only am I being attacked, but my friends are being attacked. You know, David Desmelchian said something positive.
He's being attacked.

Speaker 1 Joel Kinneman responded to an Instagram and he was attacked just for that and called terrible things.

Speaker 1 If I were you, I would have had some self-righteous indignation over the fact that really this all starts because you had pissed the right off and the right went digging.

Speaker 1 Do I understand that correctly? Yeah. I would be yelling to my liberal friends like, you motherfuckers are doing exactly what they hoped.
This is out of the right playbook. Yes.

Speaker 1 It was mostly right-wing people attacking me, but it was also. Oh, yeah.
Once you failed the purity test. Fuck, I don't even like talking about this shit.

Speaker 1 I realize now I'm really talking about it, which I don't like. I think that what happened was my life was gone.
I thought my career was over.

Speaker 1 I didn't think I was going to make another dime in this industry.

Speaker 1 So I was just going to have to hold on to whatever I had made, which was nowhere near as much as I had hoped it would be to last for the rest of my life and live a really frugal life.

Speaker 1 But the thing that happened, I realized was that everything I had done was really to be rich and famous so that people would love me.

Speaker 1 And that a lot of what I did was not based upon being a creative individual or a calling or anything, but so that I could finally be accepted and loved.

Speaker 1 And I, as an organism, was unable to experience the love of another human being. The only time I could remember even slightly the feeling, I had gone to a Brazil Comic-Con shortly before this time.

Speaker 1 And I remember standing on stage and literally 8,000 people in the crowd chanting, J-Miss Gunn, J-Miss Gunn, and crying like girls at a Beatles concert.

Speaker 1 And for the first time in my life, I said, oh, I'm at zero. I'm okay for the first time in my life.

Speaker 1 That's fucked. That's how many people had to jump into the hole on your arm.

Speaker 1 They're strangers. And they're strangers.
That's just part of it. I went from feeling like that.
And on that day, when I had lost all the power I had, I had lost the ability to cast anybody.

Speaker 1 I had lost everything.

Speaker 1 I got so much love from my partner at the time, Jen, the guardians from Chris and Pom and all those. The people who actually knew you.
The people that knew me, all my friends, my mom and my dad.

Speaker 1 I was overwhelmed with it. And I experienced being loved for the first time.
And I went to sleep that night looking at my girlfriend going, I'm going to marry this woman.

Speaker 1 And I went to sleep that night going, the start out is the worst day of my life, but I actually think it's the best day of my life. Yeah.
Because I learned that I don't need to

Speaker 1 tap dance till the bones are showing through my toes to get people to like me.

Speaker 1 And that was a really intense experience. And I kept it with me.
Isn't it crazy what it takes for us at the extremes? Yeah. Yeah.
It's insane, right? It is.

Speaker 1 You can be told stuff intellectually a bunch of times and you can understand it intellectually. And then it takes these crazy kind of moments of humility to connect to it emotionally.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think that's everyone, but I think especially for an addict, you are living in tens and ones, you know?

Speaker 1 So true. But I try so hard not to do that.

Speaker 2 No, I know, I know.

Speaker 1 Because I'm so hyperbolic in everything about my life. And I got upset about something.
This morning I was getting upset with the way things had been posted about tickets being released. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 calm the fuck down.

Speaker 1 You're not going to remember so much about everyone.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's like not a 10.
There are 10s.

Speaker 2 But it's hard.

Speaker 1 They're few and far between. But you can make a lot of sevens at 10.
We had to move my family quickly out of my house during the LA fires. Like, that was a 10, you know?

Speaker 1 But also, not worthy getting upset because that's going to make you worse at what you're doing. And in those situations, I'm pretty good.
So why am I sober when I have to get my pets out alive?

Speaker 1 And I'm not sober when they post the wrong thing on my Instagram account. Stupid.
Yeah. Well,

Speaker 1 we know the answer to that kind of, which is you suffer more in your imagination than you do in reality. That thing's still in your imagination.
It'll come out. It'll be perceived X, Y, and Z.

Speaker 1 This other group of things will happen as a result of that. Whereas like, oh, no, the fire's down the road.
The pets got to go now. Yeah.
Yeah. I know how to pick up pets and put them in a car.

Speaker 1 I'm in action. I don't have the luxury of drama in that situation.
Exactly. If I have the luxury of drama, then drama isn't warranted.

Speaker 1 And if drama is warranted, you don't have the luxury of having it. 100%.
Drama's just bullshit. It's unworthy, except for on the page.
It's our ego and our revenge addiction.

Speaker 2 But it's hard. It's future surfing versus being in the present.
But it's almost impossible to not

Speaker 2 Mr.

Speaker 1 Buddhist. We're not perfect.
But we can be better. Okay.
So did you take the DC role with the Suicide Squad in the interim where you thought you weren't going to be able to work for Suicide?

Speaker 1 That's right. Yeah.
It was the worst because Kevin was fighting for my job back. I went and I met with Alan Horn, a guy I love to death.
It wasn't happening. I left.

Speaker 1 Toby Emmerich from Warner Brothers at the time came to me. He's like, James Gunn, Superman.
James Gunn, Superman. I said, I don't know, man.
And then he was like, well, what about Suicide Squad?

Speaker 1 And so I came up with an idea. I went and pitched it.
They were like, yes, let's do it. I went home and I got a phone call and it was Alan Horn.

Speaker 1 And he said, James, I wonder if you could come in and see me tomorrow. You're back.

Speaker 1 I was like, oh my God. And I went in to meet with Alan.
And I don't know what Alan's comfortable with me talking about or not, but he basically was like, he didn't think it was the right thing.

Speaker 1 And he said, my conscience just won't let me live with it. Well, there was an online petition that 400,000 people signed to bring you back.
Everyone in the cast got supportive.

Speaker 1 There was a pretty much a tidal wave against, which is so rare. Yeah, it started out really negative and then became much more in my favor.
It really wasn't that.

Speaker 1 This was after all the noise had passed and Alan just was waking up being like, I don't think it's right. And I've known Alan forever.
The greatest guy in the world. And I love him to death.

Speaker 1 I still work with him because he's at Warner Brothers now. So we keep following each other around.
And I work with him all the time. He's one of my most trusted mentors.

Speaker 1 I show him every cut of the movie. He gives me advice.
But.

Speaker 1 He said, I wanted to hire you back. I said, okay, I got to talk to Kevin.
I went over to Kevin's house, Kevin Feige, who's the head of Marvel.

Speaker 1 I went into his basement where he's got all his Star Wars figures, like a little museum.

Speaker 1 And he said, this is amazing. He said, this is so good.
This is what I wanted. And I'm like, yeah,

Speaker 1 it's good, but I have to do something else first.

Speaker 1 And Kevin goes,

Speaker 1 are you doing Superman? I forgot about that till just this moment. I said, no.
Suicide Squad sequel. And he said, whoa.

Speaker 1 He's like, go do it. And then we'll do Guardians after.
Did you feel at all like, oh, I wanted to play my whole career with the Bulls, but I got forced to?

Speaker 1 Was there any ethical dilemma like, oh, I'm going now to the competitor now? No, I just shouldn't. You shouldn't feel that way, but I didn't feel that way because I was fired.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 I think in some ways it's like, I guess I'm going to play for the other team almost with some fuck you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it wasn't even that because listen, there are people that I'm not that happy with over there, but that certainly wasn't the Marvel guys. They were completely supportive.

Speaker 1 Lou Dias Bosito called me all the time. So Lou and Kevin were great.
It certainly wasn't them, but I didn't feel guilt at all. I had to take a job.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 I took a job to people that I also really liked. That was it.
Okay, Superman. We had Nicholas Holton already

Speaker 1 to promote. This you're a part of Superman already.
Okay, great. He's the sweetest guy.
Every person on set had a crush on Nick. Of course.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 The thing that's unique about him, it's hard to come off because you don't really fully get the sense of a person's humility. Some people are good at faking it.
Me? No.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're just okay at it. But he's really,

Speaker 1 he's truly a humble guy. He's just got that thing that he comes onto set and he's just working really hard.
And then he'll have dinner with me or with the second AD.

Speaker 1 He doesn't have any airs about him whatsoever. Zero diva.
Which in an actor, to have zero diva is crazy. Yeah, very rare.
Especially for somebody who's been famous since he's been a little boy i know

Speaker 1 another example we have with that is christian bale who also is famous as a little boy didn't really like it then came back to it if you go through that whole cycle and british yeah british that's the big thing

Speaker 1 because british people are not better than americans in general contrary to popular opinion i don't necessarily believe they're better actors in terms of the talent of acting than americans but their work ethic as actors is better than the work ethic of american actors for some reason british people, for the most part, and some are absolute pieces of shit, but for the most part, they look at it as a job and they come in and they do their fucking job and they're great.

Speaker 1 It's because theater is such a huge part of but I also like all those guys that I knew from like the British Office and all that stuff, it's a different culture on film sets over there.

Speaker 1 There's also a different marketplace over there, which has a lot to do with it. Yeah, British Office, they do three seasons.
One's a Christmas thing. They don't do the friends thing.

Speaker 1 They don't do the Seinfeld thing, they don't have things run for eight years and end up paying people a million dollars in episodes.

Speaker 1 People don't make as much money doing it, you're not getting into it for the same level of fame and money you get into it in America.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that's a big difference.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and also the people that are attracted to it. There is that sort of thing in England where it's the class system, really.

Speaker 1 It's not a good thing, but in the United States, you're this overly fame-seeking, ambitious, egomaniac child from any place that's like, I'm gonna be a fucking star.

Speaker 1 That's not really something so much that happens in a

Speaker 1 it's much more about, I'm going to go to a theater school. Be great at acting.
I'm going to be an actor.

Speaker 1 When you take on Superman, are you so confident in your skills at that point that you're not intimidated by that property? No, I'm intimidated by it.

Speaker 1 And just because I took it on didn't mean I was 100%.

Speaker 1 going to do it. It just meant I was going to play with it and see what I could do.
It's just, I had the ability to do it. So I was tooling around with it.

Speaker 1 Then the DC job came, which was not a left feel crazy thing for me that I'm, that I'm a CEO. We're our own studios.
So we are not under Warner Brothers. We are under David Zazlov.

Speaker 1 So there's Zaslov and then there is DC Studio. So we're a separate studio from Warner Brothers.
Okay. We share.
marketing and distribution.

Speaker 2 So you're the studio head.

Speaker 1 Co-head was Peter Safran. He's really the studio head.
I'm the guy that tries to put the projects together. Create a DC tone, I imagine.

Speaker 1 One of the things I want to do is to be able to allow artists to do their own thing.

Speaker 1 One of the things I loved reading comics growing up, especially DC comics, is being able to read these comics that were remarkably different.

Speaker 1 The way one artist would look at Metropolis is totally different from another artist.

Speaker 1 There's a ton of latitude. There's consistency in the storylines.
There's consistency with the characters. There's consistency with a lot of things, but the tones were different.

Speaker 1 And I don't want them all to have a similar tone. What I told Craig Gillespie, who's directing Supergirl, do your thing, you know, and Aguero, who wrote the script.
It's different from Superman.

Speaker 1 So what was the element that made you go from playing with it to falling in love with Superman? I just kept playing with it until I thought I found a way in. And then I found a way in.

Speaker 1 And I was like, oh, okay. And then I just followed that path.
Okay, so how does yours differ and also resemble the previous ones? Superman is Superman.

Speaker 1 He's a good-natured guy who's an alien and it's got the same backstory as everybody else. But one of the things I loved reading comic books as a kid, when I was four, I learned to read on comics.

Speaker 1 So back in the early 70s, by the time I came to comics, I came to Superman, not just Superman by himself, but Superman in a world of superheroes, Superman in the world of DC.

Speaker 1 And when I read Spider-Man, Spider-Man was in a world of Marvel with all the Marvel characters.

Speaker 1 It wasn't like I came into these worlds and had to read the origin story and see the beginning of this character.

Speaker 1 And then 10 movies down, that'll probably never happen, he gets involved with other superheroes. Right.
Our DC universe is a world where superheroes exist.

Speaker 1 It shares as much with Game of Thrones as it does with the Marvel universe, where we're in a world where magic exists, where meta-humans exist, and they've existed for quite a while.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because the first Superman, or the Donner Superman,

Speaker 1 he's the only Superman. He's the only superhero.
I mean, every superhero movie we ever saw through Spider-Man was basically heroes by themselves.

Speaker 1 No other heroes around. And I didn't want to do that again.
And I didn't want to tell the origin story again. And I wanted to focus on a moment in his life that we hadn't really focused on.

Speaker 1 In this case, it's his early career as Superman and as Clark Kent and his relationship with Lois Lane when they've been dating for three months.

Speaker 1 And I also wanted all the magic and science fiction stuff that I love from the Silver Age comics. So we get Crypto the Flying Dog.

Speaker 1 We have have Superman robots. We have Kaiju.

Speaker 1 We have Lex Luther in battle suits and all of that over-the-top fun stuff, yet at the same time, keep the characters completely real and completely grounded.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert,

Speaker 1 if you dare.

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Speaker 1 All I've gotten to see is the trailer, which is great and quite promising. But yes, there's quite a bit of time dedicated to Superman's dog or what I'm interpreting to be Superman's dog.

Speaker 1 And that's new to me. I didn't know Superman had a canine in the mix.
Crypto, yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 How does crypto have powers? He can fly? He's from Krypton. Oh, he came with him in the capsule? No, not exactly.
But he made it here somehow. Yeah.
Okay, he has arrived.

Speaker 1 And we don't worry about the fact that Clark is 20 and the dog's still alive. We worry about it.
We just don't explain it

Speaker 1 in this movie. Okay, great.
But crypto is also very important in our next movie with Supergirl. And so you'll find out a lot more of that.
Oh, crypto. Okay, great.

Speaker 1 And so Crypto in the trailer, he's tasked with flying Superman home from the... He's dragging him home because his body's broken by some entity we don't quite know.

Speaker 1 And he's a fucking dog, so he doesn't know what he's doing. And he's terrible.
So it's my dog, that character.

Speaker 1 He's actually physically my dog. No way.
You got him to act. He has a SAG card now? Jesus Christ, no.
My dog is terrible, but he's just my dog made white.

Speaker 1 We photographed my dog and then turned him into crypto. I would imagine...
Of the many Herculean tasks on your plate when you tackle Superman, I would guess among the top one is casting Superman.

Speaker 1 For sure. I mean, I don't think there's any role that's more.
I would not have made the film if I couldn't find Superman. Okay, so do you first start considering having previous Superman? No.

Speaker 1 You know, you're going to start from scratch because of the age. How do you begin looking for a young stud?

Speaker 1 I mean, that's what you need who can play a dork, but it's also

Speaker 1 hard to find. Non-negotiable.
And so we just cast a very wide net. We had everybody that we could think of auditioning.
Well, Nicholas auditioned for Superman, he told us.

Speaker 1 Nick screen tested for Superman. Yep.
So it came down to three actors, David Cornsweet, Nicholas Holt, and another actor who's fantastic. Where's David from? David is from Philadelphia.

Speaker 1 He still lives in Philadelphia. He's the star of a Netflix show.
He's the star of an HBO show. We own the night.
I don't know if you ever saw that. This is no shade to him.

Speaker 1 I have reached the age where I don't really know anyone under 40 anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, I got to be introduced to them through a Superman or or something.

Speaker 2 But I think you want it to be that way. You don't want it to be someone who like is so ubiquitous that everyone knows.

Speaker 1 If the actor was right, I wouldn't have minded. No, if Chris Pratt was 10 years younger, then I probably would have considered him a Superman.
He's got that boy. He does.
Charm.

Speaker 1 Where did Superman grow up? Iowa or something? Kansas. Kansas.
Kansas. Very prattled.
Iowa adjacent. Very pratt.
Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's one of the things I want to do, too, because I grew up in Missouri around Missouri farmers, so I wanted to make his life a little bit more like the farms that I saw growing up. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So his parents live in a more modest housing than we've seen other Superman. His parents don't look like aging movie stars.

Speaker 1 The most fascinating aspect to me is the notion that he was hiding his superpowers his whole childhood and the disappointment the dad might have when he showed them and what a bizarre burden that would be to be super and not be able to show it.

Speaker 1 That is dealt with a lot in the comics. There's all sorts of different ways.
Sometimes he's really super strong from the time he's young.

Speaker 1 Sometimes he little by little gains his powers as he gets older. But a lot of times it's like, dad, I want to be the quarterback.
I can beat everybody. And nope, you got to pretend like you can't run.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And then if you do it to impress a girl, then you've shamed yourself to your father.
There's a parallel between young virginal females. It's got to be so special.

Speaker 1 And all you're telling the boy is like, don't get her pregnant. You're putting on her shoulders, like, you got to be in love.
He's got to love you. How one knows that in my school?

Speaker 1 To me, it feels like that weird.

Speaker 1 yeah luckily i don't have to deal with any of that because i don't deal with him as a teenager i just deal with his relationship with his dad which is a good one yeah yeah you know who richard christie is from the howard stern show absolutely richard is a friend of mine and he's a kansas boy his parents are kansas folk and so they did all the lines for me they did and i gave them to the actors so that we could have an actual kansas accent oh no

Speaker 1 wonderful He's the one Monikov told you about where he said people where he's from will just be on the phone forever saying saying nothing.

Speaker 1 And he would call up people and go, hey, so how are you doing? Yeah, he's a stranger. Someone picked up.
Oh, I'm good. Good.
So you're doing good. Yeah, that's him.
Exactly. Over and over.

Speaker 1 Yeah, over and over.

Speaker 1 Okay, then. Then he has his brother call up.
Heard you just spoke to my brother. How's he doing? You can also ask how other people are doing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's so funny. He's a really sweet guy.
In your mind, you go, okay, aesthetically, this has to be a departure from my normal aesthetic.

Speaker 1 Strangely, I'm kind of making a superhero movie for the first time. I don't think about having to change from my normal aesthetic, but I always think visually, what is this movie?

Speaker 1 And so this one is much more comic book-y. There's a comic book by the name of All-Star Superman.
It's sort of this larger-than-life, wonderful color palette. Some of it, I'm really aping that.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, it needed to be different. And how about Lois Lane?

Speaker 1 I brought in three Loises and three Clarks to screen test, and then I mixed and matched them because I've been in situations before where I've cast two great actors put them together and you're like no chemistry not working you can do it you just got to make it built on stilts but you got to do a lot of trickery to make it work the two of them together were magic And they're very different.

Speaker 1 And it does have this it happened one night front page type of feel with the dialogue where they're going back and forth very fast. And it's romantic, but they're fighting.

Speaker 1 And there's a 10-minute scene in the movie of her interviewing him. You see a little part of it in the second trailer.
We learn everything about

Speaker 1 what has happened until that point, but we also learn everything about their relationship and their ethics and how they're very different. He's an idealist.
Never kill no matter what.

Speaker 1 She's utilitarian. What benefits the greatest good? We see how also their relationship is different and that he's a little bit

Speaker 1 more self-righteous and she's not. He's stubborn and believes very distinctly that you cannot let people die if you have the opportunity to stop it, no matter what.

Speaker 1 And she's like, yeah, but what if you maybe don't save Hitler? Maybe you don't save Hitler. Yeah.
He'd probably save Hitler. He would have to.
That's his code.

Speaker 1 It's like if there's a train coming at five people and the trolley experiment. He'll get them all somehow.
That's how he would fix it.

Speaker 1 Okay, so yes. Two years ago, you wrote in one year, 250 pages.
No, no, 650 pages of content. Thank God

Speaker 1 in one year. I've done really good not looking at this sheet of paper I typed in.
Yeah, 650.

Speaker 1 Within a year, I wrote Superman, the entire Creature Commando series, and the entire season of Peacemaker 2.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 650 pages. It was the worst year of my life.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 Too much. Do you do it at home? Do you go somewhere? I was writing wherever.
Jen and my friends and I went away to Hawaii for New Year's, and I literally was in the room the whole time.

Speaker 1 She talks about it all the time. I was in the room the whole time writing Peacemaker Season 2.
No joy to it whatsoever.

Speaker 1 I was desperate all of my friends are in that show and i'm like i have to get it done before i start really heavily pre-production of superman yeah and so i was just desperately writing it and then i would write every episode and i'd be like oh wow it's pretty good where'd that come from that felt like hell but that's pretty good and then i would write the next one i'd be like oh this is murder i hate this there's no joy in this and i'd be done i'd be like oh oh that's pretty good too

Speaker 2 i would expect you to be like i don't know what's good anymore i've written 650 pages i don't know what's good i don't necessarily know what's good but i know what i like That's all I can go off of.

Speaker 1 Yeah. There's something to be said about keeping the throttle pinned.
I lived in that. Yeah, because you get into a sweet rhythm at times and you can kind of exploit it.

Speaker 1 A really interesting book by Walker Percy called Lost in the Cosmos. He's one of my favorite writers.

Speaker 1 And it's about the different types of artists and why a lot of artists are addicts or have problems with other things because you go up into the cosmos and then you re-enter Earth.

Speaker 1 And when you re-enter Earth, it can be a really difficult thing. So people deal with it through drugs and alcohol or sex, power dynamics.
Escape.

Speaker 1 And then there's those few rare guys who just kind of go up there and seem to stay, which is like Picasso, maybe Andy Kaufman. And I think that I kind of stayed up there for that.
A little too long.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Re-entry was rough. Repercussions down here.
I wanted to know, what do you think are the greatest superhero movies made? Into the Spider-Verse.

Speaker 1 First one. Is the greatest.
Diner's Superman. Iron Man.
I'd say Iron Man is great. I'm forgetting something.
What about what's the naughty ones I love? Ryan Reynolds. Deadpool.
The first Deadpool.

Speaker 1 Oh, fuck all. I actually love all three of them.

Speaker 1 They're all really good. The last one was impossibly good.
I know. Very messy, but so freaking funny.
I love those. Well, James, this has been a blast.
I'm so fucking excited to see it.

Speaker 1 It looks phenomenal. In 7-Eleven, do we like this date? Numerically, very easy to remember.
It is my father's birthday, Oh, and it is crazy because I didn't realize it when they told me the date.

Speaker 1 And it's a father's son movie. And it is a father's son movie.
Lovely. But, anyways, so delighted this finally happened.
And I hope everyone checks out Superman on July 11th, your father's birthday.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for the fact check.

Speaker 2 It's for the party day.

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 2 Hi.

Speaker 1 How are you?

Speaker 2 Welcome to the fact check.

Speaker 1 Welcome to the fact check.

Speaker 2 That sounded, this sounds, I sound

Speaker 2 like NPR.

Speaker 1 I was going to say.

Speaker 2 Welcome to the fact check or like a robot.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was going to say you sound like NPR for sure.

Speaker 2 Speaking of robots, okay.

Speaker 2 So Jess has a

Speaker 2 chat friend he named Brady. Okay.
Brady and I have a beef. Like, I don't like Brady

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 really don't like Brady now because

Speaker 2 yesterday, Jess said he was a double Virgo. And I was like, no, you're not.

Speaker 1 Jess or Brady?

Speaker 2 Jess did. Okay.
He said one of his other friends told him he was a double Virgo. And I said, you are not.
You're barely one Virgo.

Speaker 2 He is a Virgo son, which is very hard for me to understand and reconcile.

Speaker 1 I don't,

Speaker 2 something, you know, when some things just aren't, don't make any sense.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But he said he was a double, which I am. Right.
I am a tried and true double Virgin.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And you have a lot of pride in that.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't have pride.

Speaker 1 I have.

Speaker 1 Gratitude. I, I just, yeah, exactly.
Fine line between gratitude and pride, right? There's a little, sometimes it's a little razor thin.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But anyway, I was like, like, a very Virgo of me.
I was like, no, you aren't.

Speaker 2 And there's no way that's true. Then he asked Brady, he said, I'm in an argument with Monica about whether I'm a double Virgo or not.
Knowing me, do you think I am?

Speaker 1 Like it's an opinion and not an actual thing.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And this is where things got so out of hand. Brady said,

Speaker 1 well,

Speaker 2 the traits of Virgos are blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 4 So,

Speaker 2 which you are.

Speaker 2 So if you think you're a double Virgo, you probably are. It said that.

Speaker 1 Right. Like, all you got to do is think it.
Like, he can think he's a Capricorn if he'd like.

Speaker 2 But, like, it shouldn't say

Speaker 1 that.

Speaker 2 It can say the beginning part, which is the qualities, but then to say, so if you, if you want to be, like, the adding this other piece is so scary

Speaker 1 You're scared

Speaker 2 I am scared people are asking these chats all kinds of things and they're just like talking as if they're people. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 Well, now that's bad.

Speaker 1 I'm gonna say something potentially inflammatory, which is they might be more drawn to their fake AI friends because they embrace like, yeah, if you want to say you're a double Virgo and you weigh that against your your real life friends and they're giving you shit about wanting to be a double Virgo, it makes the AI relationship perhaps more appealing.

Speaker 2 That's not scary to you.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's scary to me that people get even more lonely. Yeah, I think people, you know, that's just, that's one of my platform issues, solitary living when we're so social.

Speaker 1 That's already a problem.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and me and you have gotten in a debate before about this. You said that you and I couldn't get like wrapped up in a relationship like that.
And so we have to honor that other people won't.

Speaker 2 But that is not true.

Speaker 1 Well, but do you really think Jess

Speaker 1 is wrapped up in his relationship with Brady or it's a fun bit?

Speaker 2 It's a fun bit on a slippery slope, I think, because if we weren't there and saying, that's so bad that he just did that, I don't think he would think it was that bad.

Speaker 2 I think the slippery piece is we go to the chat because it's technically factual.

Speaker 2 Like that's what it's for. It's scouring the internet for the actual answer.
And the thought is like, oh, and they just like deliver it in a, in like a colloquial way, but it's facts.

Speaker 2 And clearly it's not.

Speaker 1 Well, but hold on. And this is also going to be a little bit combustible.

Speaker 1 If you ask it a question that there are facts behind, it'll give you. Unfortunately, astrology is not science and it's not facts

Speaker 2 there are not there are far more than 12 types of people on the planet and astrology only accounts for 12 types of people so that's already we would agree probably a mild issue with it that's fine that's hold on that these are two totally separate things you can you can think astrology is bullshit yeah but within the rules of astrology there are there are things like it's not just willy-nilly you get to pick.

Speaker 2 It's your birthday. It's your, it's very, very specific.

Speaker 1 Astrology isn't the boiling temperature of water at 1 ATM, which is always 212.

Speaker 1 Many people who are arguing in the astrology world will point out astrology is based on a lunar calendar. So it is five days shy of a real year.

Speaker 1 The lunar calendar is 360 days. So all of those astrological signs that were established for those months are already completely wrong.

Speaker 1 Because every year since they've established those, they've lost five days. And so, sure, there's probably an echelon of astrology people who are accounting for that.

Speaker 1 And they're going, oh, actually, January 1st now is actually this.

Speaker 1 But already you have a big problem. You have camps and divisions within this thing.
There's no camps about when does water boil.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's fine. But

Speaker 2 I think if you're using these apps

Speaker 2 that are substantiated, plus I went to an astrologer. That's her job.
Her diagnosis of me was the same as the app. So they're all doing the same thing.

Speaker 2 Whatever. He's not a double Virgo.
This is crazy. This is a real, this is, this is, I'm not saying astrology is real.
I'm saying within

Speaker 2 the confines of if you're talking about astrology, there's a, there's realities within it. And he is not that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know what you're saying. Monopoly is not real, but there are rules within monopoly and you can be in violation or not.

Speaker 1 But I am suggesting that there isn't the consensus that you're saying there is within astrology.

Speaker 2 I think there is.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 There's definitely is about when what your three major signs are.

Speaker 1 But you would agree. How could it possibly be correct if they said my sign was in Capricorn on January when they said that hundreds of years ago, and they've lost five days every year.
So,

Speaker 1 how could that date still mean you're Capricorn? It can,

Speaker 1 just mathematically.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know what they're doing

Speaker 2 when they're calculating this. I'm not an astrologer.

Speaker 1 Right, right. And there's things

Speaker 2 with it that I just don't know.

Speaker 1 Don't be disrespectful. Oh.

Speaker 1 You wouldn't say a biologer. You'd say a biologist.

Speaker 2 Astrologist.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're kind of

Speaker 1 weakening your argument by calling him.

Speaker 2 Why don't I ask Brady? Am I, hey, Brady, is it okay if I call it astrologer? And he'll be like, if you want to call it that, Monica, sure.

Speaker 1 If it's fun.

Speaker 2 See,

Speaker 2 yeah, that's not.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 2 I'm so worried

Speaker 2 about the world.

Speaker 2 Anyway.

Speaker 2 He's not. We confirmed it.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 And I told him he owed me an apology and he he didn't give it to me.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 maybe Brady will send you an apology. He should, he should ask Brady to send you an apology.

Speaker 1 He should say, Brady, you've really upset Monica. She's upset about this.
And now I have disrepair in this relationship. Can you please fix it? That's a good prompt and see what he does to fix it.

Speaker 2 They do. I won't say who, but there's, yes, the story of a friend who got this really, really sweet, like kind message from another friend.
And it, yeah, it had like,

Speaker 2 I'm sorry's in there and all kinds of things. And then months later, chat had written, it came out that chat wrote it.

Speaker 2 That's so bad. You cannot do that.

Speaker 1 I'm in full agreement with you there. That's, that's a little disingenuous, we would say.

Speaker 2 Yes. But see, this is where we, we think so because we

Speaker 2 like writing and we think that like we

Speaker 2 should give, we're good at giving heartfelt notes.

Speaker 1 Yes. This is very similar to I've been such a big proponent and fan of GLP-1s

Speaker 1 because I was never obese and then got thin through all my toil and hard work. So of course, for me, I was like, yeah, everyone should, that wants to be thin, if they can, that's great,

Speaker 1 you know, health-wise. But now, I already told you about about this GLP-1 that's in stage two trials.
It's not a GLP-1, but it's another about muscles, right?

Speaker 2 Yes. It's a peptide.

Speaker 1 Yes, where it your body naturally

Speaker 1 limits how much muscle you'll build because muscle is super inefficient. It's not trying to carry around a bunch of different tissue it doesn't need.

Speaker 1 So this takes off the parameters and lets your body build as much muscle as it wants. And I was like, hold on a second.

Speaker 1 If everyone's going to be jacked without going to the gym, what am I going to do? So I finally relate. I can relate a little bit.
I'm still for it. Whatever.
I don't care. Yeah.
But

Speaker 1 it hit my back door.

Speaker 2 It also is just going to cancel out specificity. It's, I, I, look, shouldn't, should I say it now? God.

Speaker 1 I don't know what you're going to say, but I'm scared.

Speaker 2 I'm going to come clean.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's something. okay.

Speaker 2 I have been doing an experiment for a month where I'm taking a micro dose of a GLP-1.

Speaker 2 I'm doing it.

Speaker 2 I was, I'm not doing it for weight loss. I'm doing it to see how it affects my blood work.
So we're going to redo my blood work, although I think we're going to go another month.

Speaker 2 I wanted to check two things. I wanted to see how it affected my cholesterol.

Speaker 2 I'm going to redo my cognitive test after that because there's some, you know, when we had Eric Topolon, he was like, you know, there's like some studies about it reducing tau and, you know, whatever, all of this interesting stuff.

Speaker 2 That's actually when I decided I would do it. Exactly.
After we had Eric Topolon, I was like, hmm, I, I wonder. And I really wanted to see how it affected my relationship with alcohol.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And shopping.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I can say it has not affected my relationship to shopping at all.

Speaker 1 I, yeah, okay, great. I would have maybe predicted that.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, it was just like any semi-addictive

Speaker 2 things I have. I wanted to see how they were affected.
Yeah. Now, the alcohol has been really interesting.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, that's what I'm most curious about. And I haven't gotten an update from you in a while.

Speaker 2 I still

Speaker 2 want it.

Speaker 2 Like, it really hasn't curbed the craving too much.

Speaker 2 Maybe a little. Maybe a little bit.
Like it got to a point in, I mean,

Speaker 2 this sounds really bad, but it's the truth. Like I,

Speaker 2 it was, it was such a habit that I would wake up

Speaker 2 and I would think, like,

Speaker 2 oh, late, I would like be planning my day and think about, oh, and I'll have a drink at some, at this point after we record, I'll go to Cara or I'll go here or I'll have,

Speaker 1 it was part of my plan of the day right when you're making your schedule you know that's the finish line it signifies the finish line I think yeah yes but when it when you're thinking about it first thing soon as your eyes open yeah

Speaker 2 yeah it's not it was a little concerning it was getting a little concerning

Speaker 2 so that's gone I don't wake up and think about it.

Speaker 1 Well, here was my prediction.

Speaker 1 If I can just say it before you give me the details, was like, yeah i'm sure your desire to drink would be the same and then i think once you're drinking you're going to find that you just drink less and then that's going to reverse engineer the habitual nature of it how many drinks a night when you go out normally and then what is it now and then now we know you don't think about it when you wake up minimally two minimally i i don't i don't remember the last time i would have one drink yeah why do it yeah it's no point right Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then since being on it, that is exactly what happened. Like it,

Speaker 2 I still wanted a drink, but I want less. And I, there many, many times have just had a drink.

Speaker 1 Wow. That's fucking

Speaker 1 Monica. Think how crazy that is.
That is awesome.

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 2 I'll get a second drink and I like will start drinking it and then I won't finish it.

Speaker 1 I mean, guys, this is so

Speaker 2 that's very crazy,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 2 And and I don't know if this is, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for this,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 2 two martinis-I that's normal for me, that's regular. There, there are definitely times where I've had three

Speaker 2 and been like fine, yeah, the next day.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 two martinis now, I

Speaker 2 feel it the next day.

Speaker 2 Like my hangovers are worse.

Speaker 2 But also, because we're being honest here.

Speaker 1 You're eating less.

Speaker 2 I've lost weight. Exactly.
I've lost weight. I'm eating less and not on purpose.
Like it is, I have to, because I don't have that original issue of food chatter. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't think about food. So there is plenty of times where I'm like, oh, fuck.
Like I have to eat

Speaker 1 today.

Speaker 2 Like I need to eat food now.

Speaker 1 That's kind of another magical element of it is when you're starving, you immediately think of all this stuff you want and your mind goes to the shittiest stuff versus, oh, I haven't eaten in six hours and I have to eat.

Speaker 1 So what am I going to put in my body? I'm not craving anything. You make better choices all of a sudden.
You go like, oh, I need protein and I need to.

Speaker 2 Oh, it's so true.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's true.

Speaker 2 it's not like yeah there are so many times where I'm like oh I'm so hungry I just like need to eat a whole pizza yes that has not happened right or I need to drive across town to get this chicken sandwich yeah

Speaker 2 I know but like but I also understand I I'm conflicted about this because food is

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 a big part of my life. I love food and I love restaurants and I love exploring new things and I love cooking.
And

Speaker 2 so this this has been interesting because

Speaker 2 I like that about my life. And so, for that to not be as much of a factor, I don't like, I don't love that part.
Oh, and by the way, I should tell people, I'm on a

Speaker 2 extremely small,

Speaker 2 extremely small dose. It is a powerful drug.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's it's um, it's almost hard to believe it happened in our lifetime.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more armchair experts

Speaker 1 if you dare.

Speaker 1 This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop.

Speaker 1 This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop.

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Speaker 1 i think a lot of people have that fear you do which is like your life is built around being social this way go out to a restaurant you love go have some drinks you love um

Speaker 1 but i do think people should have the faith and confidence in themselves it's it's identical to like kids what are they going to do if you don't have this video game well they're going to find something else to do.

Speaker 1 That kids are not going to ever sit and stare at a wall. If you take away their toys, they're going to go outside and pick up a stick.

Speaker 1 So to have the faith and confidence, like you're a social butterfly and you're going to be like, will you end up playing pickleball in the evenings? I don't know.

Speaker 1 It'll just be some, you know, it'll be

Speaker 1 a transition into something else that's social.

Speaker 1 You're not going to lose being social. You're just going to learn new things you like to do that are social, I think.

Speaker 2 Yes, I think you're right. But, like, if there was a shot that you were taking that made you have zero interest in cars,

Speaker 1 like,

Speaker 2 sure, you'd find something else, but like, you, it's, it brings you joy. It is something in your life that brings you joy.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 for me,

Speaker 2 I can only speak for me, my love for food and restaurants and, and that culture is, is not problematic it is not like i can't control myself it's not like i you know can't stop eating or i it's not so i

Speaker 2 i

Speaker 2 so removing it

Speaker 1 is scary unnecessary you know yeah and and a little scary because it's what you know i'm just saying

Speaker 1 just like the the drink thing reverse engineered the habitual part, I definitely think

Speaker 1 your life will just expand in different ways. Like that, that whatever gap is created, you'll fill with something different.
And I'm optimistic it'll be also quite enjoyable.

Speaker 2 Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know how long I'm going to do it.

Speaker 2 I'm going to see after I look at the

Speaker 2 results of my blood work and stuff. Another thing that's like

Speaker 2 sort of potentially a negative again, I think it's because I

Speaker 2 am not doing it for food chatter and has so many people, which I do think this is, this is a miracle for so many people where they're like, I just used to think about food all the time

Speaker 2 and now I'm not, which is great. But for me, it almost has the opposite effect

Speaker 2 because I'm like, I am thinking about food and that I'm not eating it. Like it is on my mind.
It's like, oh my God, like like I didn't eat or I have to eat today.

Speaker 2 And what am I, what am I going to eat? That like, is it going to be enough? That's not, you know, it's, and then I've been also watching, I'm back in cooking videos.

Speaker 2 I've been watching so many cooking videos at night. And that's, then I was like, oh God, like, is it an obsession? It just is starting to, it's feeling a little strange.

Speaker 2 It's feeling a little strange where I'm like, just watching these cooking videos and they everything looks so good, and then that's like satisfying enough.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I have to, I do have to monitor this.

Speaker 1 But also, I think it would be hard for you to parse out what you're compensating for. So it's like, I don't know that your cooking video thing is very

Speaker 1 natural and seems obvious to think that's about food, but that cooking video thing might be about alcohol. You might normally be buzzed at eight o'clock

Speaker 1 and that's

Speaker 1 calming and satiating you in a way that now that thing's not. So you're looking to regulate with this other thing.

Speaker 1 So it's like, yeah, it could feel like it's food related, but it might actually be alcohol related.

Speaker 2 Hmm. Maybe.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Maybe. It's just so strange that it's a, it's food.
Like, and because I'm watching these videos

Speaker 1 or is it videos, right?

Speaker 2 Like. No, it's food.
Well, it's both. I mean, it's all Alice and Roman.
I've just been re-watching all of her videos. I miss her.

Speaker 2 And I, but then I do, I'm like, oh, oh, my God, this chicken picata video. Oh, my God, amazing.
I am making that. And then I'll buy.
I'll buy the stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then you don't want to eat chicken picata. Like, you should just go insane.
You should just start making lots of meals and chucking them out the window in your alley.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I did. I made a delicious peach galette.

Speaker 1 What's a galette?

Speaker 2 It's a freeform pie.

Speaker 1 Okay. I don't know if I know what a freeform pie is.

Speaker 1 No pie tin is required?

Speaker 2 No top of the pie. You've seen them.
It's like there's crust sort of on the bottom and on the sides, but the fruit is exposed in the middle.

Speaker 1 Like a quiche?

Speaker 2 No, there's more crust than a quiche. It's like folded over the side.
Okay. And then, but the middle of the fruit is exposed.

Speaker 1 Not a quiche.

Speaker 1 It's delicious. Not an allorain.

Speaker 2 No, nothing to do with the key.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.
Not an allerine.

Speaker 2 And I took it to Elizabeth and Andy's. We played Mahjong, and that was good because then I shared it with everyone, and it was a hit.

Speaker 1 Oh, good. Can I just say there's a funny bit of human nature happening, which is like when you're gluttonous, you're ashamed.
Like if you were like, yeah, I ate this whole fucking pie.

Speaker 1 I brought over this pie I made for everyone. They ate the whole thing.
You'd be like ashamed. And then if you go and you make a pie and you barely eat something, you're ashamed.

Speaker 1 It's just like this, you know, an original sin. We're just so built to like,

Speaker 1 I don't know,

Speaker 1 just beat the shit out of ourselves for no reason. Yeah.
Yeah. Like, if you make a pie and you have one bite, why, you know, okay.

Speaker 1 There's no, there's no moral failing there.

Speaker 2 No, there, it's, there's no, it's not, I don't think for me, it's about a moral failing so much as it's,

Speaker 2 it's just like keeping an eye,

Speaker 2 keeping an eye on this new experiment.

Speaker 1 Do you think we'll start to see

Speaker 1 people of means die of starvation?

Speaker 1 I mean, honestly.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
I don't think it's inconceivable.

Speaker 2 No, it's not. It's not to be, it, it's a very slippery eating disorder slope.
It is. Like, I,

Speaker 2 I can see, because you're seeing changes quickly, pretty quickly, and you're not hungry.

Speaker 2 And then you're, but your brain is also like, I like the way this looks. So I'm not, it's, it's, it is complicated.

Speaker 1 I agree with you that it's complicated, but and, but I,

Speaker 1 and, and I'll, I'll hear about it because anytime I talk about ED, I'm in trouble. But I will say this.
I, I think from the ED people I've talked to, it's much more about the control.

Speaker 1 Like even when we were talking to

Speaker 1 Nikki Glazer, it's like knowing that she can overcome hunger is the spike of adrenaline it's the it's that that control uh over the urge is what's satisfying and addictive whereas you don't have an urge you're overcoming on the glp one you're just not hungry yeah it's just that we should have hunger yeah and i think this is what happens in it can happen in eating disorders where that's how it starts It starts with like, I'm hungry, but I can, I, I don't have to eat.

Speaker 2 I'm, I'm better than this craving or whatever. That's how it starts.
But I do think you get to a point where you like food disgusts you.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yes, but I do think you still have the like

Speaker 1 reward of knowing that's hard. I don't know.
I agree with you. I agree with you, but I also do think it's a bit, my guess is it's a bit different.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it might be. I just, I just think it's a slippery slope and to be, to be paid attention to.

Speaker 1 Well, I admire you for being honest about it because

Speaker 2 I wasn't sure I was going to talk about it on here, but like, why not? That actually, the secrecy around it is

Speaker 2 what I have thought is a problem to begin with.

Speaker 1 That's where

Speaker 2 people,

Speaker 2 yeah, where people are like,

Speaker 2 I'm, I'm just working out a ton.

Speaker 2 And then they're actually taking this and other people are like, well, I'm working out and nothing's happening. Like this does have an impact on your body.
It does. And so I think it's important

Speaker 2 if your body is changing. I mean, look, everyone can, I'm not telling everyone has, everyone to be like so open and you have to shout anything from the rooftops.

Speaker 2 You can keep anything you want to yourself. But I do think that's part of the problem around it.

Speaker 2 And so I think saying like, yeah, I'm on this is important to say, especially if you're starting to look different.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'd say it's ethical.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I was just going to say, as your friend, you're being a little too hard on yourself and just lighten up a little bit on my friend Monica, okay?

Speaker 2 Do you think I am?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're like, you have all this weight

Speaker 1 upon not intended. You have all this like heaviness around this topic.
And I don't think you should at all.

Speaker 2 Well, I think it's important if I'm going to be doing something that's altering my body

Speaker 2 and mind potentially

Speaker 2 to take it seriously

Speaker 1 i take it i just take it seriously and i i don't you seem to have a tiny bit of guilt about it is what i feel like i'm detecting and i don't i don't think that's reasonable I mean, it's reasonable.

Speaker 1 I don't think it's right.

Speaker 2 I think you're right. I think I do do have some guilt because

Speaker 2 I'm a small person

Speaker 2 and it feels kind of wild

Speaker 2 a little bit.

Speaker 2 Like, I guess, again, if there was like a shot that gave you perfect skin, no acne, and like someone with perfect skin was taking it, I guess I'd be like, why are you doing that?

Speaker 2 But actually, I probably wouldn't.

Speaker 1 You want it, right? You go, who cares? Yeah, I wouldn't. Yeah, I don't care.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But there's a lot of controversy around this topic.

Speaker 1 I think there was a ton, and I think it's dissipating at one of the most rapid rates I've ever seen for good reason. You have Eric Topol, you have all these doctors.

Speaker 1 I think it's changing really quickly. And

Speaker 1 I think it's absurd. You know, no one feels guilty that they take an aspirin for their headache and at work.
So there's this, you know, litany of things we take that help us. We put on eyeglasses.

Speaker 1 Someone with great eyesight, you know,

Speaker 1 everyone's trying to do the best they can and be the best version of themselves. And the things that help people do that,

Speaker 1 I don't think they should.

Speaker 1 As it's not hurting another person, there shouldn't be any guilt around it.

Speaker 2 Or you.

Speaker 2 It shouldn't hurt other people or you.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's very interesting.

Speaker 2 And I'll keep, I guess I'll keep people updated. Yeah.
If they want to be updated.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I think it's quite interesting.
Yeah. Yeah.
Want to do some facts?

Speaker 2 Okay, let's do some facts.

Speaker 1 Do you think I should have worn my Super Man outfit for the facts?

Speaker 2 I think once was great.

Speaker 1 I think it was great.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's just. Once was too many.
No, once was

Speaker 2 great. But like, this is a thing we talk about all the time.
You don't.

Speaker 1 Don't go back to the well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's okay. It's okay.
You did it and it was great. But if you do it again, then it's like, oh, he just

Speaker 1 stops. He thinks he's Superman.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he now thinks he's Superman. I thought it was very cute that when you walked in, he said, oh, I fucked up on casting.

Speaker 2 He was great.

Speaker 2 I really enjoyed him.

Speaker 1 Yes, he was really, really unique.

Speaker 1 He has a very specific personality. He's very authentic.
He really knows who he is. And he's so knowledgeable.

Speaker 2 So knowledgeable. And

Speaker 2 he was open with us, which was great and i think hard to do yeah that's a lot he went through i remember it yeah yeah

Speaker 1 you know i didn't ask him this in my head i'm sure he couldn't have answered it but i was thinking when i was watching the trailer of superman in the theater like the things that are baked into if you direct one of these movies you have to go to comic-con yeah and

Speaker 1 they're so uh they can be brutal the comic-con world who's like super i guess, religious about the text, these cartoons and stuff. Yes, very important.
People can get destroyed.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't know, like Sonic or something.

Speaker 1 I remember somehow there was some issue with Sonic. They were kind of revolted.

Speaker 1 Again, I personally can't relate to being obsessed with Sonic in a way that I would be furious that the movie did it wrong.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But, and that's light. These super book, these comics.
I know.

Speaker 2 Because they're part of their soul.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 But I was wondering, like, what the stress of directing one of those movies is where you have to do something original. Why else do it?

Speaker 1 And I was even thinking, like, oh, he brought the dog back. It's wild to see the dog in the trailer that Superman has a dog.
Yeah. But of course,

Speaker 1 he has the historical record that there were some comics where Superman had a dog. Right.
But anyways, just the notion, like, you're trying to make decisions about what thing you want to make.

Speaker 1 And I just wonder if the chorus of what this really rabid fan base could turn on you at any minute, if that's stressful.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it is.

Speaker 2 But I think that's why it requires someone who also cares so deeply about comics and about these characters and superheroes, because it's not just like, oh, we have a great filmmaker, although maybe Nolan, I don't know Nolan's background.

Speaker 1 I don't know if he got crazy about the

Speaker 1 Dark Knight comic. Yeah, I don't either.
But you're kind of obligated to become a historian. You're going to get challenged, and you got to have all the right answers.

Speaker 1 So it's like, in addition to directing this very hard-to-direct movie, you've got to kind of become a historian. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or they'll call you out.

Speaker 2 That's the Sonic-ish. It was something about

Speaker 1 Left was the original, and he was too realistic for people. Oh.
Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 So the issue is too realistic.

Speaker 2 I can relate. for Harry Potter a bit.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 When that movie was cast, it's always like, oh, God, is this going to be okay?

Speaker 2 Or even just, is the world going to match? I mean,

Speaker 2 although maybe that's different. That's probably different because with comics, there are visuals.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So. And by the way, you don't want to get locked into the visuals of someone's hand drawing from 50 years ago.
Right. You want to do something spectacular and new and original.
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 So I just think it's a tightrope.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 2 Okay. Is the Hall of Justice in Super Friends modeled after the Cincinnati Union Terminal? Yes.
He said DC's Justice League was way before Marvel's Avengers.

Speaker 2 Justice League was created in 1960, and Avengers was created in 63.

Speaker 1 Oh, actually, so three years earlier.

Speaker 2 Three years.

Speaker 2 He said St. Louis is the only big city in the U.S.
whose population is smaller now than in 1900.

Speaker 2 So in 1900, the city of St. Louis was 575,238.

Speaker 2 And in 2020, 301,578.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 But Cleveland also.

Speaker 2 Cleveland, 1900, 381,968. 2020, 372,624.

Speaker 2 Um, okay, we mentioned the trolley problem, and I wanted to remind people about the trolley problem.

Speaker 2 The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics that poses poses a moral dilemma involving a runaway trolley.

Speaker 2 The core scenario involves a trolley headed towards five people and the option to switch it to another track where it will kill only one person.

Speaker 2 This problem explores the complexities of moral decision-making, particularly when faced with conflicting outcomes. That's like a utilitarian thought experiment.

Speaker 1 Yes, but then you get into the tricky scenario where if it's five top brass in the Nazi party

Speaker 1 versus

Speaker 1 Louis Pasteur on the left,

Speaker 1 it's not as simple as five to one.

Speaker 2 It's really not.

Speaker 1 I'd have no problem throwing that switch, would you? Killing the one. The breakdown is if you ask people what should happen, everyone's like, well, the one person should get killed.

Speaker 1 Then if you put them in a situation where they have to operate the switch, it goes down.

Speaker 1 I would, I could easily throw the switch.

Speaker 2 I can't.

Speaker 1 You just walk away from it and be like, fate wanted these five people to kill.

Speaker 2 It's not about wanting. Like, I don't think like things are meant to, I don't think it was meant to be that those five people, but yes, my intervention

Speaker 2 is,

Speaker 2 I can't live with. So, yeah, it's going to happen the way it's going to happen.

Speaker 1 But it's how you frame it, right? Because, yeah, your intervention

Speaker 1 would mean you were culpable for one death. But if you insist on yourself, no, I'm culpable for five if I don't act.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 It's like kind of how you frame it.

Speaker 2 It's just that that person was

Speaker 2 not going to be killed.

Speaker 1 Right. They were on the track that would need a divergence.

Speaker 2 I'm inflicting it on that person to save others. I can't do that.

Speaker 1 You can't do it. Yeah.
I hope if I'm the one person you're in charge, and I hope if I'm in one of the five people, they let me pick.

Speaker 1 That's what I hope.

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess if I'm in the group of five,

Speaker 1 you'd be like, dude. Throw it.
What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 There's five of us.

Speaker 2 I don't know if I would feel like that. And we've talked talked about this.

Speaker 2 I don't like the notion. I mean, yeah, if we make it Nazis and Louis Pasteur, that's very specific.
But like, I don't like the notion that one person's more valuable than another person

Speaker 1 in general. Yeah, no one likes that notion.

Speaker 2 Well, some do, like, or not, they don't like it, but they

Speaker 2 believe it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I believe that for sure. I think the value between Jeffrey Dahlmer and

Speaker 1 Benjamin Franklin as very different values.

Speaker 2 I agree, but those are specific people. And I'm more talk about categories.
Like people think this business person is better off.

Speaker 1 Immediately do you not have parents?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
This is the conversation. Like,

Speaker 2 I should die sooner than a parent. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But you've extrapolated a lot.
You've gone to like what the worst case scenario of that evaluation would be like, well, this one person has a family and these five people are single.

Speaker 2 Well, no, I'm just

Speaker 1 this is just a deviation of the potential outcome, yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't know anything about these people, but but we're

Speaker 2 it's all a question of placing value on

Speaker 2 people, yes, and we don't know anything about these

Speaker 2 trolley men that's right and women.

Speaker 1 That's right, you'd be regretful if you saved the five, killed the one, and they go, by the way, that was the top brass of the SS.

Speaker 1 And the guy you killed was

Speaker 1 Gandhi. Okay.

Speaker 2 Well, I can't, I didn't kill anyone. What I would do, probably,

Speaker 2 but I would.

Speaker 2 I would kill five adults to protect a kid.

Speaker 1 Hmm. I don't know if that's the right call.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 1 can't.

Speaker 1 I can't.

Speaker 2 have a kid get killed.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we have, it's rightly so. We, we, we weight kids above.

Speaker 2 so would it is it different for you with gender?

Speaker 1 Is it if there were three men and three women? I would kill the three men.

Speaker 2 No, but what if it's the five men and one woman?

Speaker 1 Oh, well, this is great because now we're really that's what these experiences are great. They force you to put a numeric quantifiable value on them.
That's what I'm saying. Because

Speaker 1 I don't think five to one, no.

Speaker 1 One to one for sure. I picked the man to die.
Two to one is hard. I might kill two men over one woman, one women's,

Speaker 1 but I wouldn't do three. Yeah.
So then you, you've backed me into saying I think women are twice as valuable as men, but I don't know that I stand by that statement.

Speaker 1 But in practice, that might be the case. How about you? Would you kill a man or over a woman?

Speaker 2 If it's

Speaker 1 one of them's going to die. Yeah.
They go, one of these people is going to die.

Speaker 2 And I have to pick.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I'd kill the man.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And as long as they're strangers, oh, it's all so horrible.

Speaker 2 But look,

Speaker 2 this is why, you know, when people are doing these rankings and it's like, you're a single person, you should obviously die.

Speaker 2 Then they're like, the father should die.

Speaker 2 I think that's what most people would say. If you're ranking, it's like single person goes, then father goes.
The one to protect is the mother.

Speaker 1 Uh-huh. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I stand by that.

Speaker 2 I don't. I mean, I know bad mothers

Speaker 2 and good fathers. Like, there's no way to, I know bad parents.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of course. Like, maybe better if all the parents got wiped off, and they might be with aunt and uncle.
That's right. Okay.
Anyway.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, that's it.

Speaker 1 Those are the last of the facts. Yeah.
Oh, okay. Well, I love you.
Love you.

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Speaker 4 Mom and dad, uh, mom and mom, dad and dad, whatever, parents, are you about to spend five hours in the car with your beloved kids this holiday season?

Speaker 4 Driving to old Granny's house, I'm setting the scene, I'm picturing screaming, fighting, back-to-back hours of the K-pop Demon Hunter soundtrack on repeat.

Speaker 4 Well, when your ears start to bleed, I have the perfect thing to keep you from rolling out of that moving vehicle. Something for the whole family.
He's filled with laughs.

Speaker 1 He's filled with rage. The OG Green Gronk, give it up for me, James Austin Johnson, as the Grinch.

Speaker 4 And like any insufferable influencer these days, I'm bringing my crew of lesser talented friends along for the ride with A-list guests like Gronk, Mark Hamill, and the Jonas Brothers, whoever they are.

Speaker 4 There's a little bit of something for everyone. Listen to Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.