Jon Bernthal

Speaker 1 Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard.
I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Speaker 2 Hi.

Speaker 1 Today we have one of my favorite actors on. I've been slowly becoming obsessed with him.
I got a handful that I follow that I'm really intrigued by, and this is one of them, John Bernthal.

Speaker 2 I'll be honest, honest, because that's what we do here. When I first saw him, I was like, oh, I don't know who that is.
And then, as soon as I saw his face, I was like, oh, I do. He's in everything.

Speaker 1 He's in absolutely everything. I think so many, most people will probably know The Walking Dead because it was such an annoying shit.

Speaker 2 And he was in King Richard.

Speaker 1 Yeah, King Richard, The Punisher. He is The Punisher.
The Accountant with Your Boyfriend.

Speaker 1 Daredevil, Fury, and he has a new movie in theaters now, The Accountant to also with my boyfriend. With your boyfriend.

Speaker 1 But one thing we didn't get to in the interview, which I really wanted to we ran out of time we had him for so long is um he has a really cool project in ojai called ironbound and it runs from may 9th to may 11th and may 16th to may 18th and he will star alongside actress marin ireland and this and an immigrant blue collar story and uh he has put his whole life and passion into this theater project in ohi and i hope people will go check it out um May 9th through the 11th and 16th through the 18th.

Speaker 2 Once you hear this interview and you hear his acting background, you're going to want to see that.

Speaker 1 Oh, he's a monster.

Speaker 2 Oh my God. What a story.
His story has felt like a movie.

Speaker 1 Yes, 1,000%.

Speaker 1 Please enjoy John Bernthal.

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Speaker 1 My wife is disgusted by beards. I just got off of this movie.
I just got back from Africa.

Speaker 1 And now we got kind of word that not the next thing I'm doing but the one after that they want to keep the beard and I think the beard's gonna play in it so like this beard ain't going nowhere yes everyone's gonna get comfortable make peace with the beard and that's like not happening in your family in your personal life she's like truly disgusted you had a great mustache and it was like a comedy no it wasn't king richard yes tennis guy big bushy yes long yeah it's impressive big it's disgusting and then this thing just accentuates it so you know it's funny man i come from a family like my whole family sort of reminds me.

Speaker 1 My brothers are really good looking. My nose has been broken a ton of times.
I was born with these giant ears. I like hate the way that I look.
Yeah, me too.

Speaker 1 But I look at you and I'm like, you're gorgeous.

Speaker 1 What are you worried about?

Speaker 1 I don't know, man.

Speaker 2 Similar.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess we've got like the biggest.
Well, let me ask you. I made a decision where I'm like, this isn't the face I wanted.
So I guess we're going tough.

Speaker 1 Like, I'm going to embrace me.

Speaker 2 Are your brothers pretty?

Speaker 1 Listen, we got to get into his brothers. They're like the Romney family.
No, not.

Speaker 1 Romney Malik? No, no, Romney Malik. Romney's brothers are

Speaker 1 like Romney's brother. The Emanuels.
Oh, the Emmanuels, oh boy. Yeah, my brothers are.
They're the Emmanuels of D.C. I'm the middle, but my parents took in a bunch of foster kids.

Speaker 1 And my parents were sort of the parents in D.C. They all had their own specific and unique and separate and private relationships with friends.
So if you were in trouble, you go to my dad.

Speaker 1 It was really a lawyer that became the board of directors of the humane society. Humane society, yes, sir.

Speaker 1 I'm presuming a nice gentleman that would take on on that work i think my dad is really nice he's a rougher he's very direct where's he enormously smart he's from syracuse new york son of immigrants russian polish but i don't know that people would lead with nice oh great when you get to know him 100 right fiercely loyal a great guy to have in your corner what kind of law did he practice so he started off his three cousins that were his best friends and like his brothers growing up one of them specifically but they were sort of involved with a pretty major bank robbery in Connecticut.

Speaker 1 And my dad went into law, I think. To defend his friends.
Yeah. But then he got into representing radio stations and TV stations.
And I will probably completely mess this up.

Speaker 1 One of my other brothers would do this much better, but legend has it that there was a few young businessmen that he became extraordinarily close with.

Speaker 1 And he was with them from a very, very young age, helping them build their businesses, sort of being their right-hand man.

Speaker 1 When you ask me about my dad, the first thing I would say is fiercely, fiercely loyal. He is the guy you want in your corner.
He's been in my corner. I've seen him be in other people's corners.

Speaker 1 No matter what happens, that guy's got your back. Huge lesson for me as a father.
Was he a tough father? Definitely. And I think I was wildly disappointing as a son.

Speaker 1 You know, when you talk about my brothers. Yeah, let's hit it.
So Nick is an orthopedic surgeon and professor at UCLA. He's done his son.
He's the head of oncology and orthopedics at UCLA.

Speaker 1 Went to Princeton, all-American football player.

Speaker 1 That's a bummer of an older brother to have. That's my little brother, bro.

Speaker 1 That's my little brother. That's even literally.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, but listen, listen the older brother was working in the clinton administration and comms in the white house is that a miss a little bit okay let's straighten it out

Speaker 1 don't give him that one dude bro it's hard enough he was

Speaker 1 i believe he was the youngest producer for the nightly news ever he won like five emmys by the time he was 25.

Speaker 1 he's got more emmys than you he sure does i mean the joke in my house getting back to the ugly thing is that if i had my brother's looks i'd have five oscars right now

Speaker 1 you know when you first start out, and I've said it before, you're just facing sort of like this avalanche of rejection. I think the first thing we go to as human beings is, oh, I'm disgusting.

Speaker 1 It's because my ears are bigger. And I do remember palpably walking into rooms where the casting director looked up and was sort of like, oh, God, you know, but I think of you, no, no, no, for sure.

Speaker 1 But I do also think it's because, look, in the beginning, I'm trying to be on soap operas. I would be in the waiting rooms and see these beautiful men.

Speaker 1 Just be like, this ain't going to happen for you, bro.

Speaker 1 But there was never a part of me like, oh, you just wait. When I get my hands on some media, it was always, I suck, this isn't gonna work for me.
It's your gross.

Speaker 1 But what a blessing in the long run, because I do think that there is a thing for folks that I've seen.

Speaker 1 And I don't know that it necessarily means because of their looks, but I have sort of come up with people where I thought, wow, they've really got this whole thing kind of licked.

Speaker 1 And they play beautiful young men.

Speaker 1 But then when it comes time to play a father or to play a soldier or to play a cop or to play somebody who's really worked with their hands, honestly, whether they've done that or not, I think it really can become a hindrance.

Speaker 2 They don't look like a real person.

Speaker 1 I think so. Yeah, I meet a lot of dudes at the gas station that look like some of the folks.
Yeah, this is probably right.

Speaker 1 And then when they're playing the guy at the gas station, why isn't that guy in fucking Hollywood? Because he's gorgeous. Why is he wasting his time in Pennsylvania at this gas station?

Speaker 1 So you had a brother ahead of you who went through school and clearly he must have been brilliant. This school you went to, friendly, something?

Speaker 1 Well, friends, it's really coming full circle right now because I'm trying to decide what we're doing with our kids next year. And, you know, I don't know if.
We have 10 and 12. Do you have babies?

Speaker 2 All that school stuff is scary.

Speaker 1 The whole thing for me being a dad, I love things that you're never going to lick, that you're going to fail at constantly, that you just want so bad that you can pour every bit of your heart into and that you just keep running into walls.

Speaker 1 And my God, do you just fail over and over again as a parent? You admit it and you show up.

Speaker 1 And so trying to figure it out now, I don't know if you could say the same thing, but I'm tremendously grateful for how I grew up, where I grew up, even with all of the walls that I ran into.

Speaker 1 And there is a huge pressure on me for my kids to learn what I've learned. Unfortunately, I don't think they're going to be able to learn it the way that I learned it.
No, no. Nor should they.

Speaker 1 Nor should they, but I think it really could have gone and did go bad a lot of different times. And, you know, my brother was definitely not a brilliant student.

Speaker 1 No, not at all. He really got bullied a lot.
I think D.C. at that time, no matter where you were in that city, was a rough city.
And it was rough on him.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of the decisions that I made, how I was going to conduct my life and how I was going to carry myself was really in reaction to that. In a very similar way.

Speaker 1 I think my little brother made those same decisions of what not to do based on what I was doing. Sure.
It was a pendulum swinging in your family.

Speaker 1 I think so, but I think the thing that was steady all the way through with my folks, because yes, both of my brothers are really wildly successful guys.

Speaker 1 And I think more than just that, they've had unbelievably satisfying careers, they're deeply kind and good people who put helping people and being there for other people before anything else.

Speaker 1 They're family first people. They have wonderful friendships.
They have wonderful marriages. They have wonderful children that they love.
I hate them. I hate both these guys.

Speaker 1 No rehabs or anything? Nah, man. I mean, look, man, we have that.
Believe you, me, we have anything that you could possibly have within a family.

Speaker 1 But with our immediate family, I was doing an interview the other day for this movie I have coming out, and they asked Ben Affleck and me, like, what is your superpower? I mean, it was just so clear.

Speaker 1 I really do think it's them. It's my family.
There's never been resentment among each other. There's not been jealousy.
There's been total support. I did get in trouble a lot when I was young.

Speaker 1 What brand of trouble did you find yourself in? Got locked up a bunch of times. And it was mostly I had problems with violence.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Got into martial arts and boxing when I was young and probably learned from some of the wrong people and a lot of questions with my own manhood and fear.

Speaker 1 And I feel like so much of that stuff comes from shame anyway.

Speaker 1 And again, when I talk about teaching my kids, I really believe every person has to have their own fluency and relationship with violence.

Speaker 1 I find specifically as a man, I think you have to be able to have a healthy relationship with it to sort of understand it.

Speaker 1 Because I think when it's super far away from you and you've never delved in those waters, it can be enormously toxic.

Speaker 1 And so to try to teach my kids that, my boys and my girls, but teach that to them in a place shrouded in honor and respect and kindness and justice and under the umbrella of safety has been a real focus of mine.

Speaker 1 And man, I wish I had that. I mean, it's just super basic.
It kind of goes for everything with these kids and with us.

Speaker 1 And I try to remind myself all the time, try to not let your feelings be the boss of you. Try to not do anything out of anger, out of resentment, out of fear.
Try to be your own master in that way.

Speaker 1 You're never going to have that licked. You're never going to fully have that down, but you can aim towards it.

Speaker 1 You know, you can try going to this unbelievably prestigious and lauded school that I went to, I still, you know, by the time I was 11, I was taking the subway in the bus school. I gotta jumped.

Speaker 1 I gotta mugged. That's not gonna happen to my kids in Ohio.
No, no, no. That is not gonna happen.
They have better odds of coming face-to-face with a cougar. For sure.
For sure.

Speaker 1 Let's teach them that.

Speaker 1 In both this business and in life, I've come across so many people who clearly walk down the street and walk into a room and have no situational awareness and didn't grow up the way that you grew up and aren't thinking about those things.

Speaker 1 And it's not that, oh gosh, they're a sitting duck or oh, they're vulnerable or oh, this is going to be bad for them. It's just that who knows? And

Speaker 1 these things could become enormously valuable at a certain time. And when it does, what you don't want to do is sit in the corner and say, oh my gosh, make it end.

Speaker 1 I think you want to be able to be in a situation where you can protect your family, protect your friends, stand up to somebody who's getting it bad, no matter what that is, but to never fall to the base inclination and desires that push you to say, oh, I feel bad about myself.

Speaker 1 I'm going to go bully that guy. I know what I can do right now.
I feel a little bit ashamed. I'm going to be the loudest talker in the room.
Rather, hey, you've been there. You've been on the mat.

Speaker 1 You've been in the ring. All that stuff, you recognize it for what it is.
It's noise. And to give you a sense of confidence that's curated by really, really spiritually strong people.

Speaker 1 And what a gift I think you can give. And for me, because I had my boys first.
So you have two boys and a girl? I have two boys and a girl. And then we just took in my niece, who's three.

Speaker 1 So she's been with us for almost a year and a half. So you got four little kids.
Little less. She's little.
How old's your oldest son? 13. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 It's my daughter's 12th birthday today. Oh, happy birthday.
Yeah, we're going to Disneyland tonight. Let's go.

Speaker 1 Let's go. You'll go tonight and spend the day tomorrow.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 It's probably so good for a 13-year-old boy to have a little three-year-old girl around.

Speaker 1 My niece's dad, he's in prison in Florida. He's not going to get out.
And my wife's sister, who's wonderful, is six months sober now, but really been fighting her whole life. Good for her.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she's really, really fighting the fight. This little girl, she's seen a lot.
She's been through a lot and was going into the foster system. And we were able to get down there and get her to us.

Speaker 1 Oh, good. And the gift has been so profound for my kids.
One of the things I'm sure you wrestle with like I do, which is like, what reality do they know? They've had a swimming pool their whole life.

Speaker 1 That's bizarre to me. But I think having a little girl around who's really in it is a good perspective giver.

Speaker 1 for your kids who i'm presuming your house is pretty nice and ohi for sure for sure for sure but also it's funny when i talk about that people are always sort of coming to me or coming to my wife because it's really my wife but saying wow that's so great and i just totally see it as it's a gift to us it's a gift to our kids.

Speaker 1 Oh, I believe that. Everyone's winning.
Both are true. Both can be true.
This school, though, looks so idyllic just from the photo I saw. It's like a Henry Ford Museum in Detroit.

Speaker 1 It's a Quaker school. There are Quaker values that are enormously.
beautiful. There are no real Quakers that go to that school the way that sort of DC was in the 80s and 90s.

Speaker 1 DC is a city that's not part of a state and the public schools were in pretty rough shape here.

Speaker 1 Because it's really a lesson in hypocrisy, that city, because you have this Sterling city on the hill in the middle of the city, which is all these monuments and all these government buildings, but that's protected by the park police and the Secret Service.

Speaker 1 There's no litter. Nobody from D.C.
lives there. And then you go like two blocks in any direction and there's a different kind of music, a different kind of vernacular, a different kind of folks.

Speaker 1 It's definitely not what it used to be, but it is that. And you see that.
growing up. No matter where you go, it's a loss of innocence.
You sort of start to figure things out.

Speaker 1 For us, I think specifically that school just had a history. I was really brought up with the idea of Quakerism Quakerism that there is that of God in everyone, the way that Quakers pray.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you guys have ever attended a Quaker meeting.

Speaker 1 But I have a friend who's an atheist who attends a Quaker church. I mean, the way that Quaker meeting works is everybody sits around in silence.

Speaker 1 So at that school, for instance, once a week, everybody, every coach, every security guard, every buildings and grounds member, every teacher, every student sits in silence.

Speaker 1 And there's no leaders, no followers, there's no priests, there's no rabbis.

Speaker 1 And if that of God moves you, anyone, you get up and you address the congregation and you speak from the God that's within you.

Speaker 1 So it's really steeped in conflict resolution and equality and diversity. How cool, right? Very cool.
The school that I sort of came up with was vast, vast majority scholarship students.

Speaker 1 It really put a real onus on all kinds of diversity. There were kids that weren't allowed to go to the public schools that were allowed to come to our school.

Speaker 1 And what I saw was this really sort of utopian, beautiful thing where kids that were, in some cases, involved in things out of school that were genuinely dangerous.

Speaker 1 Kids were lost to gun violence, were on school grounds, really a part of this community where they felt respected and safe. And even when things would flare up.

Speaker 1 There was a way of dealing with them where there was no principal saying, you're suspended, you're kicked out. It was a group of your peers and we would try to get to the bottom.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, why are you doing what you're doing? And let's see if we can bring you guys together. And maybe you need to go spend a night in his neighborhood.

Speaker 1 and maybe you need to go to her house and see what that's like for me it really worked and man do i believe it if you had asked me then i would have been this is a bunch of bullshit but now i'm like those Quaker values are beautiful.

Speaker 1 I love the school and I'm so grateful to the school and the people who are my best friends who I played on my undefeated high school football team with are still my best friends.

Speaker 1 Well, they play football. That's a little bit of a.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's true. What?

Speaker 1 Conflict resolution, God, and then you have a football team with me. I like it.
We were a really sort of violent group of guys.

Speaker 1 And there is really that element there, this dichotomy, but supported anyway. Truthfully, what I'm most grateful for is it really was a place and a city that was diverse.

Speaker 1 People throw that word around, but the kind of folks that I got to grow up with were from all walks of life and in that city. And at that time, I'm just so grateful for it.

Speaker 1 And I think where DC is is such an interesting thing because you cross one river and you're Virginia and then you go out this way, you're in Maryland, and there's the Eastern Shore.

Speaker 1 It's such a wildly different culture. Okay, so you go to Skidmore, but you're there for how long? I gotten in trouble in high school.

Speaker 1 So I had this sort of thing looming over me while I was in college. Trial coming your way? Yeah.
I went to Skidmore to play baseball, and it was at Skidmore where I started acting.

Speaker 1 You go to Moscow on the advice of one of your acting teachers? Yeah, this woman, Alma Becker, I have her name tattooed right here. She was my first acting teacher.
I've told this story before.

Speaker 1 I've never heard it. Okay, sorry.
I know. Isn't that the worst though, man?

Speaker 1 Anyway, I boxed my whole life and so my head's a little and my biggest fear is that I'm telling the same story over and over again. And someone's sitting there being like, fuck this story again.

Speaker 1 In every boxing gym, there's somebody who does that. And I'm so upset.
We just had a CT.

Speaker 2 I know, now I'm scared for you because you just said that because we just had CTE.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm scared for me about that too, to be honest with you. You're going to beep just fine.
Yeah, yeah. Anyway.

Speaker 1 I took this class to fulfill a requirement. I was a total shitbag.
I was there just to play baseball. What position did you you play? I played catcher.
Oh, how are your knees? I'm okay now.

Speaker 1 I mean, but from boxing and catching, and I play a lot of outdoor basketball, they were bad. I've had a bunch of surgeries, but hey, my little brother.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 When I've sat in that position, I'm like, how do those catchers sit like this for two hours? Yeah, it was bad for a while, but I played all through high school and college. I played some baseball.

Speaker 1 Oh, we got to get to that. Yeah, yeah.
Oh, boy. But there was an intro to theater class.

Speaker 1 that all the athletes took and you would sit in the auditorium and I heard you could just sort of take acid and sit in the back and watch movies. So I was like, wow, that was for me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that sounds great. I ended up, because I'm a total shitbag, in the intro to acting class, which was a serious acting student class.
And I had never seen anything like this before.

Speaker 1 And the first assignment was to bring in something

Speaker 1 that you really cared about to share it with the class. Everybody was sitting on the floor, which I thought was the weirdest fucking thing in the world.
Like, why are we sitting on the floor?

Speaker 1 And they were going around person by person, theater people sharing. Yeah, yeah.
And they were taking it so seriously, really emoting. And it just dawned on me.
I totally didn't bring anything.

Speaker 1 Because you didn't love anything or because you didn't. Just like I never thought to bring in an assignment like that.

Speaker 1 Anyhow, it was slowly but surely working its way to me. And the only thing I thought to do was to get my catcher's glove because I was going to fall practice right afterwards.

Speaker 1 And I kind of launched into this story about how my mother had given me this glove on her deathbed. And my mom's like alive in my life.
Oh my god, you look at it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I just thought that was sort of acting.
And I just told this story. And I'm like, you know, and then me and my brother, you know, we just have a catch and talk about my.

Speaker 1 So it's kind of like an ABC after school special almost. For real.
And like everyone's crying their eyes out. I am like crying my eyes out.
I checked in with myself. I really went to this crazy place.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, whoa, guys, I'm just doing the acting here.
Like, chill out.

Speaker 1 And this woman, Alma, who's this magical woman from the San Francisco theater in the 60s and the 70s, was in original Sam Shepard shows. It's just great, fierce woman, made everybody leave.

Speaker 1 And she just ripped me the fuck apart. And then she said, but you're auditioning for the play.
Learn this monologue, come back tonight and audition. I did.

Speaker 1 And I have no idea why I did, but I remember walking back to the house with the baseball players where I lived. And I remember reading the words and something was happening to me.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, what the fuck is this? The same thing that was happening in that room. And I got in the play.
Can I make a guess or a suggestion? Sure, man.

Speaker 1 When one embarks on boxing and fighting and defending, weirdly, I don't want to get hurt. And I want everyone to know, pick someone else.
There's an easier thing for you.

Speaker 1 Cause I'm protecting this sweet boy. That's really in me.
That's it. You get in there and you're like, wait, you can be a sweet boy?

Speaker 1 People will be happy about that? And no one here is going to fucking call me gay because I just said I like my brother and miss my mom. All these layers of wait, a world like this exists?

Speaker 1 I can definitely identify with that. What I'll tell you for me more specifically was the guy who was getting in fights on the street, that guy was fake.
That guy was scared.

Speaker 1 But what I found out, and still to this day, man, if I can tap into

Speaker 1 like real,

Speaker 1 genuine chaos and danger, I loved my friends so much. And I sort of went from the guy in the back talking the smack, like, let's all go do this to, you know, the shame.

Speaker 1 I got to be the guy in the front. Okay, now I got to be the guy to do it one-on-one.
Okay, now I got to be the one to like prove to myself that I can do it. This stupid, toxic, awful game.

Speaker 1 But what I found was that intoxicating energy, if I could tap into that this way, I could do it in such a positive way that brought me closer to people.

Speaker 1 Both pursuits are full of fear for sure. And I think in both cases, what I've really responded to is that it's a group effort and it's a collaborative effort.

Speaker 1 And you get so close with, I know it probably sounds cheese dick and hokey, but like the soldiers that you're with next to you.

Speaker 1 The reason why I was getting in street fights is I didn't know how to tell my friends how much I loved you. That's exactly.
That was all it was. I love those guys.

Speaker 1 I didn't know how to do it any other way.

Speaker 1 And I wanted them to feel so safe and protected that they would love me so much. For sure.
And I thought my wife would like that. Yeah, which is like, oh, she's like, no.
Yeah, like, bro.

Speaker 1 And my wife comes from a genuinely tough family. Her uncle is a WWE.
He won the gold medal for American Wrestling. Yeah.
Kurt won the gold medal in 96, and Eric. They were teammates? Best of friends.

Speaker 1 Mark trained him. Oh, really? Yeah.
He was that Fox Catcher with him. Was he on Fox Catcher? And he left to go train with my wife.
You pumped him for those stories? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 For sure, yeah, for sure. But I mean, my wife's dad's got even better stories.
Oh, yeah, okay, wow, wow. Okay.
They're serious. But they're the real serious family.
So, yeah.

Speaker 1 I loved my friends so much. I wanted them to love me so much, and I would jump on fire for them to show that.
And I found out you can do it in acting and comedy.

Speaker 2 You can also just say it, but sometimes you can't.

Speaker 1 Sometimes you can't.

Speaker 1 If your group of friends come from a group of adults who say I love you and then act in an opposite fashion, if that's like your core group, everyone there is divorce kids.

Speaker 1 No, saying it really doesn't mean anything. Yeah.
And the truth is, I don't want to sell these guys short because they're not mongoloids. They're not simple.

Speaker 1 They're beautiful people with successful families and beautiful careers. The sad thing is you get older is you go, oh, everyone on the other side was also in the same situation.

Speaker 1 That was one of the biggest things for me. I remember there was this one time in DC when we were at a bar and there was some little stupid altercation.

Speaker 1 I think my little brother had gotten into it with some guy and I was fiercely protective because, you know, then you go to therapy and you start working on your anger.

Speaker 1 And it's still crazy that we're even talking about this. But, you know, I really like keeping an anger journal and really whittling it down and doing the work.
Like, what are the things?

Speaker 1 And one of the things for me are my brothers.

Speaker 1 i just knew from a young age my job was to protect my brothers so going into certain situations playing pick up basketball with them on the street going out drinking with it like if my brothers are around i am that guy and i still to this day you're their security a little bit and i just do remember my brother got into it this guy was giving him a hard time and this other guy stepped in and i just got up and i remember i hit this guy and i knocked his teeth out i had this theory that you only got hurt in fights when it's your fault.

Speaker 1 Somehow, that was my scientific

Speaker 1 complete bullshit.

Speaker 1 But, you know, I remember I got this huge infection on my hand, and it was Christmas Eve, and I just woke up that next morning in this state of like absolute horror that this guy has to wake up on Christmas morning without his teeth.

Speaker 1 All I want for Christmas is my tube, bro. Bro, you got to at least sing that.
You got to laugh. Actually, how funny is that? I never even thought of that.
Literally don't tube front teeth.

Speaker 1 But I just remember being in D.C. and like crying my eyes out thinking about this guy.
And that was at least the beginning of, yo, stop this shit. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 I always talk about this with my kids like the steps of behavior there's unconscious incompetence where you're just doing dumb shit you have no idea you're doing it and then that super incredible and vital point where you're like oh conscious incompetence i am doing something wrong why am i doing this and then that next step of conscious competence where you're like if i tell myself every day here comes don't do that i can plan for it i can do a million different things to keep myself from doing that and then maybe you can get to that spot of unconscious competence where you don't even have to think about it.

Speaker 1 You just do that. And for the most part, because I don't ever believe you're good.
I don't believe that this is gone from you or me or whatever.

Speaker 1 But I just do want to say, I think with my brothers and my friends. The one thing that was always present is we only wanted each other to be okay and to be safe and to grow out of our bullshit.

Speaker 1 And whether we were able to say that to each other at the time or not, no. But that was clear, is clear.
And I'm so grateful for that.

Speaker 1 Okay, Russia. Yes, sir.
Somehow, this teacher says, you know what you might want to think about doing is going and studying in Moscow. Yeah, I didn't know, man.

Speaker 1 I knew that this is what I wanted to do. Once I started acting, it was baseball and acting.
Is this like 96? I went to Russia in 98, and then I was there from 98 to 2001. Wow.
Three years?

Speaker 1 Yeah, two years. I first went for a year, and that was to be in the Russian school.
And she had hooked it up, got me an audition. And can I ask what the value of that is?

Speaker 1 Is that school where like Stanislaw

Speaker 1 school and check off? Yeah, the Moscow Art Theater. Yeah.

Speaker 1 and i was just dealing with this case i was in real trouble and having to deal with parole boards and not being able to continue school and i went to her and i just said look how do you do this i thought it was like being a plumber like what are the steps that i need to do this is what i want to do i wanted to be a regional theater actor and that was it and she said look there's no rhyme or reason to this thing there's no one way but she said you know if i were you I would audition for the Moscow Art Theater.

Speaker 1 Americans haven't done this before. And I think what she knew, one, she needed to get me out of my environment.

Speaker 1 And I think two, there was a level of training over there and an environment over there that was so beyond humbling. Moscow was wild in the late 90s.

Speaker 1 It was completely run by the mob, shootouts in the Duma. I had guns pulled on me multiple times within my first few days there.

Speaker 1 You know, it was a really flawless place. And for a guy who's like, I'm a tough DC guy.
Like Barrel, like you are not tough. Like you are a little bit more.
These motherfuckers

Speaker 1 bit the old lady on the streets, right? Like the babushka will fuck you up.

Speaker 1 Straight up. And also I hadn't done international travel to go to a place to be a Russian actor, to be a Russian singer, that meant every bit as much as to be an American.

Speaker 1 You know, to be an artist there was, for lack of a better word, at this time of my life, it was this enormously masculine thing to do. You learn how to do ballet.
You learn how to do acrobatics.

Speaker 1 You learn how to fight. Super rigorous and unbelievably cut throat.
If you get into these schools, it's so hard to get in. You know, out of 10,000 kids, they'll take 100.

Speaker 1 And then every semester, they'll cut you in half. That last year, those 10 kids, you're doing 10 plays in repertory.

Speaker 1 And when you show up to the theater, you're told which of those 10 plays you're doing and which role you're playing, both male and female. The level of discipline was so unlike anything I'd ever seen.

Speaker 1 What's going on with the language? Is it in English? So when I first got there, no, no, definitely not, man. Nobody was speaking English at all.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 How on earth are you dealing with that? It was hard. I lived in a place called Parkulturi, which is a Gorky Park and not a great area in Moscow then.

Speaker 1 The deal is if you got into school, they provide a translator. So I had this guy who was with me all the time.

Speaker 1 But the cool thing was, is honestly in your first 12, 13 months there, it's training your attention and your concentration.

Speaker 1 A common exercise would be if there was 12 of us, it's like ensemble building at the same time with no leaders or followers, we'd all stand up at the same time.

Speaker 1 And then at the same time, we'd all pick up our our chairs. And at the same time, we'd all start moving around the room.

Speaker 1 And you would have a newspaper article and you would have to read a paragraph from that newspaper article. While we're walking around the room, it's starting to get confusing, right?

Speaker 1 While we start walking around the room, I'm saying, Dax, what color is your underwear today? Right. And you would say, red, right? Or whatever.
Or I'm not wearing

Speaker 1 green and blue. And then you would say, John, what'd you have for breakfast? Strawberries and eggs.
And we'd go around the room. The teacher, meanwhile, is snapping, coughing, and clapping.

Speaker 1 Then at one point, the teacher says, stop.

Speaker 1 Everybody stops. And at the same time, everybody makes a semicircle with their chairs.
The same time everybody puts their chairs down. Same time, everybody goes and sits down.

Speaker 1 And you had to know what did Dax ask John? What was the answer?

Speaker 1 How many claps? How many coughs? How many snaps?

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 You're doing your own thing. You're reading your thing.
And then you need to know every answer. And you need to be able to recite.
That sounds perfect for you. It was perfect for me.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Especially coming from the sports background. It was more rigorous than boxing.
It was more rigorous than football.

Speaker 1 It was more rigorous than anything i had ever done and i think in russia to be an acting teacher is the highest acclaim that you can get so my teachers were the biggest stars and not just that they were famous but they were the most respected oleg tabakov is like the robert de niro of russia he's a teacher so if you're anywhere in moscow and a moscow art theater teacher comes into the place that you're in you have to stand up and you can't sit down until they sit down Those guys all lived through communist times.

Speaker 1 So, you know, public gatherings were outlawed. So if you were to do theater, it was always state-sponsored theater.
Probably propaganda to some level. Propaganda to some level.

Speaker 1 But then, if they said, okay, you guys are doing a play and this is a state-sponsored play, but because my arbitrary look on it, if I'm a state person, you know, I think that there's actually an anti-state message.

Speaker 1 Yeah. They'll come to your house and kill you.

Speaker 1 Meyerhold was one of the biggest Russian directors in the Moscow art theater, assassinated in his apartment. Teachers,

Speaker 1 according to that, and like, who knows? You know, it's corrupt as hell. This is where they came up in.
And my three main acting teachers, these three men, their best friends, I love these guys.

Speaker 1 And they did this play called Chinzano about these three best friends who one of their mothers die and they sit in an apartment and drink a bottle of Chinzano and talk about it.

Speaker 1 They did it all through the 80s, performing in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings, putting signs up through the city. If anyone had been caught.
Dead.

Speaker 1 I don't know if they'd be dead, but they'd definitely go to prison.

Speaker 1 They'd definitely be in trouble. And they performed it anyway.
So there was just this level

Speaker 1 of vitality to it that I think I really responded to. How lonely were you? No internet.
I didn't have an email account. I didn't have a cell phone.
So there's no calls home. Are you a romantic though?

Speaker 1 Are you telling the story of your life and you're like, look at me, man. I'm in fucking a little bit.
Yeah. That would be what would sustain me.
Things were not looking good for me.

Speaker 1 Like I do feel every day I am in church, man. I am walking the walk.
It's just for me, my mind was blown every single day, spiritually, physically, and just being in such a different environment.

Speaker 1 And I don't know if that's even possible now. I had had one phone call on Christmas.
I called my mom and my dad. I called my best friend, Greg Zumas.
And I remember how awkward it was.

Speaker 1 And I didn't know how to talk to them. And my dad was like, do you know how much this is costing? Are you sure?

Speaker 1 I'm like, pop. What are we talking about, bro?

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

Speaker 1 If you dare.

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Speaker 1 You also end up playing professional baseball while you're there. How does that happen? While I was there to make a little bit of money, Moscow had just gotten a team.

Speaker 1 It was interesting there because all these new sort of American things were popping out. You really had very different rushes and very different Moscow.

Speaker 1 The Moscow that all the kids that I went to school with, you know, they were coming in their whole families from the Ural Mountains, eating off a hot plate, really destitute.

Speaker 1 At night, it was drinking vodka, singing, rapping, playing theater games. No one had any money.
So it was like you scrounged together what you had. That was the Russia that I knew.

Speaker 1 But there was this other thing with the mafia and it was this fascination with American culture and these sort of American restaurants and McDonald's. And one of the things was baseball.

Speaker 1 So there was this new thing in Russia where these mafia guys would go with their model girlfriends and go watch baseball games. I went in 2000.
to Russia. I was there then.
Yeah, I went to St.

Speaker 1 Petersburg and it was like, oh, communism's dead, but there's no stores. There's no bars.
There's no restaurants. The downtown is just like, dudes are drunk at nine in the morning.

Speaker 1 There's really nothing to do. Real, real, real drinking.
Not surprising to see dead guys on the subway on the way to school. There are certain cultural rules on the street.

Speaker 1 Like if somebody falls down and cracks their head open, you do not touch that person. You don't help them.
You don't call anybody.

Speaker 2 What's behind that?

Speaker 1 I think they've seen so much fucking suffering. is my guess through those many years.
I mean, fuck from Stalin on. So much suffering, food scarcity.

Speaker 2 They've just seen it. It's just like, take care of yourself and get through it.

Speaker 1 I could tell you stories all day, like really brutal, dark stories that happen there. But for every single one of those, I've got one that is so profoundly beautiful.

Speaker 1 Of course. Both of those things exist at the same time there.

Speaker 2 Sounds like they're carrying so much duality there. Like even the fact that there's this mafia thing and it's...
all regimented, but then an art professor comes in and everyone has to stand up.

Speaker 2 Like that's already blowing my mind that they revere it.

Speaker 1 And on every corner, there's a statue of a playwright or a poet or an actor to find somebody like a street guy. He'll know what's playing at the Bolshoi.

Speaker 1 He'll be able to name all the members of the Moscow Art Theater. And when you go, there's no idea of this sort of like subscription-based, gentry, exclusive theater.
The theater is religion.

Speaker 1 Every theater is packed every night. People are sitting in the rows.
It's cheap. You take your family to the theater.
You go and you see theater.

Speaker 1 It's like something that you do and not in any kind of like, do you know who's going to be in this? Like, right. And also just the way that these plays are even put on.

Speaker 1 There's no such thing as, okay, we're going to rehearse and then we've rented this theater, so we're going to go up in June. You rehearse a play until the director says it's ready.

Speaker 1 It could be three years.

Speaker 1 Once you have a role, like if you're playing Hamlet and you're playing Desdemona, those are your roles. And you might get a call next week.
Every night, there's a bill of what shows.

Speaker 1 It's not like this show is playing here. You're going to

Speaker 1 see Dax and Hamlet tonight. And then tomorrow they're doing Othello and you're playing Desdemona.
So you have your parts. There's plays that have been running there for 35 years.

Speaker 1 And they're just, oh, they're going to do it at the Taganka tonight. And you got to see this production.
It's like a rock bam. Yeah, it's really cool.
What were you making playing baseball?

Speaker 1 What could someone make? It was in rubles, but I think at the time it was close to probably 25 bucks a game. Okay.
Yeah. But that went a long way.
Okay. Congratulations.

Speaker 1 For me at that time, 25 rubles, which was approximately five bucks, if I'm doing this right, not in the western places, but the three of us could go out to a Georgian restaurant eat hat chapuri split a bottle of vodka get a couple chickens maybe a thing of beans the best bread you've ever had and we'd sit there and get completely fucking hammered and eat do you guys know what hot chipuri is no

Speaker 1 georgian food it centers around this thing called hachapuri which is basically like this bread with these three kinds of georgian cheeses sort of like fried into it with an egg fried over the top

Speaker 1 like then you can put these russian beans on it i mean it's bonkers good

Speaker 1 For five bucks, three, four people eat and drink as much as you want. So for 25 bucks.

Speaker 2 Yeah, not bad.

Speaker 1 You know, because I was 20 years old. My buddies were all Russian teenagers and people in their young 20s.
And so to be like the big span, like, come on, I got you.

Speaker 1 Like, it was so, so crazy to be able to do that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. So you get back from Russia.
You move to New York. You do 30-op plays.

Speaker 1 You do

Speaker 1 some like guest stars on all the shows everyone in New York does guest roles on. You get Tina and Tony's wedding.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that brings you to LA in 2004.
Yes, sir.

Speaker 1 So you're just scrabbling for those however many years that would have been, just kind of cobbling together. Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of years.
When I was in Russia, Harvard has a graduate school.

Speaker 1 Sorry, that's really relevant. Yeah.
No, I don't know if it's relevant, but they would bring their MFA students there. They saw me in a show.
They're like, what the hell are you doing here?

Speaker 1 They offered me a spot. I was like, Harvard? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, look at that. To go to graduate school.

Speaker 1 To go to graduate school, even though I never went to college. I didn't even know one could do that.
Me neither.

Speaker 1 But then you go back to Russia, but this time as a Harvard student, which is a totally different thing. And that was an extraordinary thing too.
But they do these showcases and stuff.

Speaker 1 And I got an agent. So you have a master's from Harvard.
Yeah. So cool.
That's hilarious. Look at the arc.
Given basically you flood the country.

Speaker 1 If I could bring in like a group of people that could tell you stories of how big of a fuck, like a colossal fuck up.

Speaker 2 Your story is a movie. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.
You're Will Hunting. I know.
My best friends were from South Boston. My friend John Davis Sparky just passed to Siri OD, the fucking greatest guy.

Speaker 1 I played baseball with him. But this group from South he took me to Harvard to audition.
They're all waiting outside. They're like ripping lines in the car.
The craziest group of them ever

Speaker 1 in the spots. You know, he's like, wait, he's like, did you get in? I go in there and I do this audition.
They told me in the room. They saw me in Russia.
They're like, come back.

Speaker 1 This really is Goodwill Honey. He's like a janitor.
My favorite movie of all time.

Speaker 1 I remember exactly where I was calling my mom on Sparky's phone. She couldn't believe it.
But I met my, I met my wife right when you were. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you met her at Harvard?

Speaker 1 No, she was an ICU trauma nurse in D.C. I met her the day I got home from Russia.
What a story.

Speaker 1 Wow. Okay.
This is so wild. Okay, so you come to LA 2004.
You get yourself on a show. You're a regular for a season.
It gets canceled. That's 2005.
You get another show for a year.

Speaker 1 You're in this nebulous, I'm imagining. You're like, is it starting or not starting? Is it starting? Were you feeling that feeling here in LA?

Speaker 1 For a few years in the beginning, there was definitely the whole ugly thing that I was telling you about, where I was like, okay, this is not going to happen. Well, the first one was a sitcom, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, with like Jesse Tyler Ferguson and Lizzie Kaplan, and it was the people that had done friends. And it was supposed to be the one.
Jimmy Burrow took us on the private jet.

Speaker 1 Wasn't it called like the class or something?

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember it was Chris Klein and James Vanderbeek, I think, going into rooms to test with those guys.
It was like, this is a total fucking joke.

Speaker 1 Look at you, you fucking charlatan, you ugly little joke. In the beginning, it was really hard.
It was just no, no, no, no, no, for years, nothing. Couldn't make money.
I was like selling weed.

Speaker 1 I was bouncing. I was doing whatever the fuck I could.
But I'd come home feeling sorry for myself.

Speaker 1 And my wife was working at these major trauma centers around the country being like, pull it, never saying it. Right.

Speaker 2 But she's like, do you know what I saw today?

Speaker 1 Yeah, dog. And she would never say that, but she could just do it by like, come here i got you and i'm like i'm crying on her chest what did you do today

Speaker 1 yeah you know like you soft yeah so several gallons of blood dumped bro today right and like literally like an angel i'm upset about this bullshit yeah but i will say man through that time it was really genuinely total gratitude.

Speaker 1 It was an influx of positivity. It was like you're getting really close and there was no end game.
Also, you haven't been arrested in a while.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I got in trouble one more time pretty bad in 2009. That's when everything kind of shifted for me.
Oh, wow. After you've been working.
That's when I was five. Stop drinking.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you don't drink? I do not.
For how long? Since 2009. 2009.
Congratulations.

Speaker 1 That was a long time. Wow.
Meanings or anything or no? No, it was raining.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Therapy, you said.

Speaker 1 That event more than anything else. Like, yes, I was working.
It was a really bad thing happened in Venice. And I think more than anything else, there's an issue sort of with one of my dogs.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I tried to take my dog. There's a bunch of them.
I ended up hitting a guy, and he got knocked out and hit his head on the ground.

Speaker 1 Being down in jail in LA and not knowing whether this guy was going to wake up. And it was literally as profound and clear a moment as I've ever had.
Wow. Okay.

Speaker 1 If you're going this way, this is your life now. There's no more acting.
There's no more girlfriend. There's no more any of this.
You got to go be the devil. You're going that way.
He's not waking up.

Speaker 1 This is your life now. You just ruined your entire life.
For me, it was way more active than that. It was like, okay, if we're going in that direction, I'm going to let you into my life.

Speaker 1 I will be the worst version of myself. I will fully give over to whatever energy that is.
And I see with so many people, violent criminals, folks that we call monsters.

Speaker 1 I know that they've been in the same spot. And I was ready, man.
It's not a tough guy bullshit. It's like, I am ready for whatever the fuck comes my way and I will meet it with whatever comes my way.

Speaker 1 And then the next thought was like, but.

Speaker 1 If just this one time, please, I swear I'm dumb. I will devote myself to this thing.
I will devote myself to this woman. I will serve in every way that I can.

Speaker 1 I will really do your work, whatever that is. I promise you.
Literally in that moment, he woke up. That was July 3rd, 2009, July 3rd, 2010.

Speaker 1 I was in Atlanta starting The Walking Dead, engaged to my wife, a year sober. Year later, my first son, Henry, was born.
I'm like blown away with gratitude. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And at any point, including now, if it all goes away. Have you read the Pat Tillman book, the John Krakauer book, where Men Win Glory? Sure.
I love that book. He had that moment.

Speaker 1 That exact same moment. Yeah.
He really hurt a a guy right before college and he was almost done.

Speaker 2 It gives you a lot of empathy, as you said, when you hear about these stories of people. It's so easy to say, like, yeah, they're just bad.

Speaker 1 You know, when I go into prisons and I get to know these people, and there's some folks that we've been a part of reducing their sentences and getting them out, the biggest thing that I'm aware of when I talk about my life, there's shame in it.

Speaker 1 Because the truth is, man, I had every opportunity. I went to grade school.
I had good parents who loved me and I hit these walls over and over and over and over. So many chances.

Speaker 1 This wasn't the worst thing that I had ever like, Dave, what are you doing? But the thing that I find is the only reason that I got these second chances is because of that privilege.

Speaker 1 Honestly, it's the only reason. And there are so many folks who just don't have that or who made that same deal with whatever and it didn't work out for them.
And they're no better than me.

Speaker 1 They're no worse than me. Do you have an explanation for what was driving this side of you?

Speaker 1 For me, it's always, again, been like, I have these pillars of brothers who never fucked up, just got it all fucking figured out. And by the way, always made me feel like I had real worth.

Speaker 1 In a bond, you go to John, you really want to talk about something emotional, you really want to have an honest conversation. I know they come to me.
They'll always come to me.

Speaker 1 And I was always that guy. That being said, I know it all came from shame.

Speaker 1 It all came from the times I was beat up, the times that I was jumped and I didn't do anything about it, the times that I was really scared. I can explain all this by one event.

Speaker 1 I let a kid beat me up in sixth grade. And for years, I laid in bed at night going, oh my fucking God, why didn't you fight back?

Speaker 1 Do you you know how much violence has happened because of young men laying in bed at night, hating themselves because they couldn't make their hands move? I've never been more mad at myself.

Speaker 1 And it's funny because we interviewed Conor McGregor and I was like, how do you guys? Oh, I saw a boxing gym. I'm like, there's got to be more to it than that.

Speaker 1 Oh, well, they got jumped by these guys that were older than me. Okay.
And then I go, well, I didn't fight back.

Speaker 1 He's like, yeah, yeah, I didn't really. I'm like, yeah, that produced Conor McGregor.
That's right. God, it's fucking powerful.
The amount of shame. I'm 50.
It's all worked out. I'll be in bed.

Speaker 1 I'll just occasionally. I can be on the couch watching the kid punch me in the face for a long time.
I know how toxic that road is, that shame and that I'm really a wimp. I'm really a coward.

Speaker 1 If these guys find me out, you know, so I'm going to talk a little bit. Like all those things are just such horrible roads to walk down.
And it is crazy that.

Speaker 1 A lot of the things that I get to do is portray these uber tough strong.

Speaker 1 And the thing that I find such a gift is that I'm really aware of each one of their, not just deep vulnerabilities and sensitivities, but their shame.

Speaker 1 I just don't think there's any such thing as like violence without pain and shame. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're crying inside.

Speaker 1 You go into prison and you hang out among folks who have had real, real time to sit with this.

Speaker 1 You go into prisons and you find folks who are, in my opinion, some of the most ethical and innovative and deep and spiritually sound because they've just had so much time to sit and really work a lot of this stuff out.

Speaker 1 And when you find folks like that, it's such a gift, you know, fully evolved, like fully figured it out. There are people who never get to be around their kids because they're behind walls.

Speaker 1 And I think they're some of the best parents on earth. The way that they breathe is in full consideration of their children, of their offspring, of their spiritual connection.
And I'm so in awe of it.

Speaker 1 You've done a bunch of great shit. I'm going to jump right to one thing because I saw you in Walking Dead.
And to be honest, I was like, if

Speaker 1 I know this guy, I would be fighting this guy at the bar.

Speaker 1 And I couldn't enjoy it. Like, he was that visceral for me.
The actor? The actor. Oh, shame.
He's a dick. And I was like, oh, I just, I couldn't really enjoy it.

Speaker 3 I was like, yeah, this dude and I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 Are at a bar. It's a good show.
I wish I didn't do that for you, dude. Can you watch him just fast forward through my stuff?

Speaker 1 I think this is great, though, because I'm like, oh, this guy and I would get into it so bad.

Speaker 2 Because you're the same. Exactly.
Yeah, that's what happened.

Speaker 1 And you just know.

Speaker 1 Can I say one thing about that yeah the guy who 2009 got knocked out hit his head 2010 july 3rd i wrote him a letter and i said to him i realized that when i hit you i saw you in me and i wanted to smash it that's what it was yeah sorry i just

Speaker 1 thousand percent then you start popping up on other stuff and i'm like oh this guy's pretty

Speaker 1 hate this guy's pretty

Speaker 1 bad this guy's pretty good and then for me we own the city I was like, I'm prepared to bow down. Oh, man.

Speaker 1 Holy. What a gift that was.
Fuck, are you good in that show?

Speaker 1 Man, that's a Gandalfini level. Oh, my God.
Thanks, man. I cannot believe that show wasn't enormous.
Yeah, I feel so bad for David and George because they're so great, you know, it's the wire.

Speaker 1 But that show was, I think, at that time, especially in a subject matter that I'm so curious about, fascinated by, deplored by race and policing. It's like so at the center.

Speaker 1 Because of that show, I got this unbelievable front row ticket and access point in this fucking city that is like right at the tip of the spear of these fucking issues.

Speaker 1 And to really get to understand policing and for three months, going out every single night on the east side with the gun squad and then on the west side of Baltimore with Nagovich and them and on SWAT raids and like really getting to know these guys really, really well.

Speaker 1 And then at the same time, understanding it through the systemic lens that George and David kind of singularly can do, then getting to know the real guy and understanding it for all its complexities.

Speaker 1 It was just such such a fucking gift. Both The Wire and We Own the City is as close as you can get to narrative being a documentary.
I mean, it's just so enjoyably specific.

Speaker 1 There's not one line of exposition that someone thought they know how it works. They know how it works.

Speaker 1 When you're dealing with David and George, they're not interested in making the scene the funniest. It is journalistic integrity.

Speaker 1 It's like we're shooting this with as many of the real people as we can. Not in an offensive way.
It's almost a reenactment. It is.

Speaker 1 But to play this like wildly colorful guy that everyone said, like the dude's fucking larger than life in this tapestry, we're like 90% of the people I'm working with are not actors.

Speaker 1 What a fucking gift.

Speaker 1 And in that world, at that time, after Freddy, to be able to go into Baltimore in Baltimore, the wire is like required watching for every cop, like, you know, for every gangster, for every community member.

Speaker 1 Yeah, dude. And so like when you're saying, hey, I'm here with that, they open up to you.
You make these unbelievable friends. But the experiences I had getting to play that role.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm just so grateful for it. I am so happy for you that you had that.
Oh, thanks, man. Me too.
Wow, you're incredible.

Speaker 1 I know we're here to promote other stuff, but everyone needs to go watch We Own the City.

Speaker 2 I know we're in career mode, but I do have a question because based on this whole interview, I wonder what your opinion is on this. Have you seen Adolescents yet?

Speaker 1 I have not. I saw his movie.
I cannot wait to see this show.

Speaker 2 It's fantastic. It is exploring the plight of young boys and violence and incel culture and how all this happens.
And I was like, how do we fix this?

Speaker 2 And I don't know that you have the answer, but you've experienced a lot of this stuff. And I wonder, do you have an opinion on that?

Speaker 1 My two oldest, they're your part. Man, it's like everything.
How do I raise kind, empathetic, sturdy. protective young men, protectors who take accountability.

Speaker 1 And there are things that I really feel my wife and I have gotten right. Yeah.
And there are things that I really feel like we haven't. And that is the rub.

Speaker 1 There are things that are unquestionably good. I think jiu-jitsu is unquestionably good.

Speaker 1 A martial art that doesn't require you to strike somebody, which causes the other person to get angry and scared and strike you back, or that is such violent with striking that they could fall down and hurt themselves.

Speaker 1 But it's a martial art of getting close. You hearing them breathe and say, hey, I'm right here and this needs to stop now.
I got you. I'm with you.

Speaker 1 To teach that to kids and to get them to have a facility in that and to be able to walk into a room and know that, that is an unquestionable good thing.

Speaker 1 Really having respect for nature, like getting outside, learning how to be outside, loving outside, doubling down on things that no one can take away from you. No one can take nature away from you.

Speaker 1 No one can take reading away from you. No one can take music away from you.
Giving them these solid touchstones to really see value in those things as kids. freaking huge.
And then everyone says it.

Speaker 1 And maybe I'll be proven wrong. It's sad, but the phone and the screen is the enemy.
But I was raised, the kids that were told, don't ever touch beer, don't ever touch sugar.

Speaker 1 Those are the kids like the second they got the shot, they're like,

Speaker 1 right? Like, how do you do it? But I think what you can do is you can clown the fuck out of people who are always on their phones. That's what I do with my kids.
I'm like, look at that family.

Speaker 1 That motherfucker has not gone off. Like, how sad is that? Maybe that's not the best way, but it's a way.
And look, it's like they'll point out like, dad, that guy has not gotten off his phone.

Speaker 1 But I do think that there are sort of undeniable things, art and food and skills and travel.

Speaker 2 Confidence, I guess. That's how you get it.

Speaker 1 Yes, because then you don't have to prove it in other ways. I guess so.
Let's talk about what's coming out. You have so much coming out.
First of all, you won an Emmy last year for Bear. Last year?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Congrats.
Thanks, man. So you're on the Bear.
You're going to be in the new season of The Bear. You have the amateur coming out, April 11th.
That's with Lawrence Fishburne and Rami Malik.

Speaker 1 So the accountant two, I saw accountant one. Seemingly from the trailer, this one's a two-hander.
More so, yeah. That's really exciting.

Speaker 1 Again, not to be a cheese dick, but I do believe the greatest part of this thing is the people that you get to meet along the way. And in the first one, Ben and I really didn't get much time together.

Speaker 1 My character was sort of mysterious. You didn't know that they were brothers, and they come together at the end.
This one is the two of them together.

Speaker 1 And it's Gavin O'Connor and Bill Debuque, same writer and director.

Speaker 1 I don't know about for you guys, but as I'm getting older and older, I am just constantly looking for models models of people that have really got it going. And Gavin's a guy that I really look at.

Speaker 1 He's been through it. He's been in those valleys and I don't think you can be up in the mountaintops unless you've been in the valleys.

Speaker 1 But he is just like a family first guy who takes his art super seriously. And I love him.
And I've really found that with Ben. I just got done working with Matt on the Nolan film.

Speaker 1 Wait, you're in a Nolan movie, you son of a bitch? That's why I have this haircut. Congratulations.
Thanks, man.

Speaker 2 That is really talking about being anointed.

Speaker 1 Oh, boy. You know, I knew Matt from Ford Ferrari, but I just think that what they're doing together with this company is so beyond beautiful and what we need.

Speaker 1 And I think, in a way, it's going to save this whole thing. They're artist-first guys, but Ben is brilliant.
Yeah, intimidatingly so. Yeah.
Almost. Yeah, he really is.
Such an incredible filmmaker.

Speaker 1 And what I loved is on this film, he's the studio head and he's the lead actor, but he's not the director. He's like Bill Russell.
He's the coach and a player.

Speaker 1 And it's such an interesting thing to sort of navigate, especially in that role.

Speaker 1 Through personal things in his life, he's really got a deeper connection to the role and you can see it and you can feel it.

Speaker 1 I think he's brilliant in the movie and we really had this awesome thing together. You guys are exploring in a fun way.

Speaker 1 He's autistic and you're not and you're brothers and you have a relationship and you're trying to understand what's happening with him. Does he love you? Does he care about you?

Speaker 1 Does he think about you? His behavior is very hard to read. That's all happening in this.
That's a cool storyline. Really cool.

Speaker 1 And I think it's really personal personal to everybody who made it, which is the most important. Bill Debuque wrote it and created Ozark.
He's wonderful. He wrote The Judge.
I was in that. Yeah, man.

Speaker 1 That's right. He was a headhunter in St.
Louis or something right before The Judge. It's a great story.
It does come from a really personal place. And I think that he writes family.

Speaker 1 And when you think about Gavin and the movies that he makes and sort of uncovering father issues and brother issues and masculinity, and these guys are all sort of like deep dive type guys because of the first film, you do get sort of a sense through these flashbacks of how these boys were raised in this really, really unique, violent way by their father.

Speaker 1 I wanted Brax, the character that I played, he had to be equally, I didn't want it like one guy's got the affliction and the other guy's got it figured out. It's like, no, he is every bit.

Speaker 1 Here's one side of the coin. Here's the other side of the coin.
That's it. They're equally dependent on each other.
They're equally in awe of each other.

Speaker 1 They're equally fucking frustrated with each other.

Speaker 1 I find with everybody, I don't know if you guys think this with the relationships in your life that are the most important, but I'm constantly blown away by the things that i love about people so much are such a close cousin to what i cannot fucking stand about them like it's like the same

Speaker 1 thing and it can be something totally positive my wife will never tell a lie she will never exaggerate her integrity is so insane but it's like dude if we just say he's sick you know what i mean like we can like barrel like we can get through this but oh my god i'm so in awe and so i think you really feel that in this movie, the things that these guys love each other for are exactly what also drives them crazy.

Speaker 1 And I think it's really honest. Okay, do you like this term method actor or do you hate it? Do you have objections? I don't know that, like, I hate it.

Speaker 1 Look, being from the Moscow art theater and all that, I do think it's bastardized and it has nothing to do with what that method was.

Speaker 1 I think the colloquial understanding of method is you don't break character ever. Which is not.
what Stanislavski's method was at all. With that said, you played a mute in a movie.
Oh, fuck.

Speaker 1 Fucking Holland. Did Tom tell you this? I just read it.
Fuck. And you didn't talk to anybody for months.
Yeah. How does that work? Well, it didn't work, dude.
I mean, like,

Speaker 1 it didn't work. Fucking Tom's on this Nolan movie too, man.
And he was just clowning me. Yes, I was playing a fucking mute.

Speaker 1 And embarrassingly, we were in this tiny little village in Ireland. And it was one of these deals where we're all living together at the same little resort.
There's nowhere to go.

Speaker 1 So every meal, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, we're together.

Speaker 1 So we're not not just together on set we're together which is great i love these guys you wouldn't want it any other way except i come up with this idea is i'm going to be silent the entire time so now they've been dealing with this asshole what if you saw someone was on fire bro

Speaker 1 but like the way it all came to an end which is so embarrassing is not only do they have to deal with me on set but we would sit there at dinner what do you want for dinner and i'd be like you know

Speaker 1 this is so lame

Speaker 1 you kind of boxed yourself in a corner bro it was so bad and then there was salmon for every meal. And I'm obsessed with lemon for my salmon.

Speaker 1 So I wrote on this little notepad to Tom Holland, who was like 17 at the time. I'm like, hey, dude, can you get me some lemon for my thing? I write that down.
He's like, of course.

Speaker 1 Can we have some lemon? And the guy comes over and drops the lemon in my soda. And I'm like, fuck, I'm done.
I'm done. I can't do it anymore.

Speaker 1 That was the breaking point. That was the breaking point.
That was one of the breaking points. And I think the thing that is frustrating to people, and certain people are definitely guilty of it.

Speaker 1 And I really try to catch myself because there is this thing that we want to show everybody how hard we're working. Some of it is performative.

Speaker 1 And I have seen people where I've been like, oh, this motherfucker, like we all know how hard you're working, dude. Like, great, good for you.

Speaker 1 But I've also been unbelievably surprised by that, where I thought that and I was like, oh no, I will tell you Shia on Fury.

Speaker 1 When I first saw him get back from real boot camp in full fatigue, show up at Brad Pitt's house, be like, I just got back from boot camp, G. And I was like, dude.

Speaker 1 And then eight months later, this motherfucker has not stopped for one second, being all the way dialed in. And he's laying down shit that no one else is laying down.

Speaker 1 He's proving once again to perform on a level that other people can't do.

Speaker 1 Other people can't do it. And that is his thing.
I really do try to give people the benefit of the doubt and say, God bless you, man. Like, if that's what you need to do.
I think it's cool.

Speaker 1 I think everyone gets to skin the cat how they want to. Yeah.
Yeah. And then the last thing, you have a really popular podcast.
You have a podcast that's adored and loved.

Speaker 1 And so you're a peer in this space. The real ones.
You have firefighters, first responders, drug dealers, convicts. You have the whole spectrum.
How do you find folks?

Speaker 1 To be honest with you, over 90% of the people that I have on are just friends of mine from life that I've just been like lucky enough to get to know a lot of the cops in Baltimore.

Speaker 1 I have a real weird relationship with it. I've always really felt the need to shy away from getting too much of me out there.
That's an old actor trope, though. It is.
I totally get it.

Speaker 1 I also think that for me, we don't make money off the show. I don't monetize it in any way.
The genesis of it was really after George Floyd.

Speaker 1 I found myself watching that and knowing that I had to be part of the resistance. It would make me so angry and so disgusted and that I had to do something.

Speaker 1 And I would turn on the TV and I would go down there and then I would see people throwing bottles at cops. And I looked at each one of those cops and I was like, I know these people.

Speaker 1 They're brothers, their sisters, their fathers, their daughters. And then I would go down to Newton Division where a bunch of my really good friends work and I would go make sure they were good.

Speaker 1 I just was so sort of disgusted with the national discourse on subjects like that, but especially that where I felt like the folks that they were being the loudest.

Speaker 1 were the people at the opposite poles waving their flags as hard as they could because they were filled with fear and shame because they'd never experienced anything in the middle.

Speaker 1 They had never been down in that valley where they've actually come face to face with a cop or they've come face to face with somebody from one of those communities.

Speaker 1 And then I just looked at my life and I was like, wow, the one thing that I know is the guys that I know who run gangs and guys who I know who have been in that life and are real community-minded community activists, the real ones.

Speaker 1 They can look among their own community and they can tell you who's real and who's not. They'll tell you which one of these guys, yeah, he stands for this set, but he's not.

Speaker 1 Like that guy ain't the real thing. That dude right there, he's down for it.
Like he'll help the lady cross or he's down for this community.

Speaker 1 And they can look across the divide and say that cop over there, he's real. He shows up.
There's a kid in our community that has cancer since he's five years old. He shows up.

Speaker 1 And I've also saw it on the other side with the cops that they can look over and say, that guy's standing.

Speaker 1 And then I was like, wait a second, what would happen if I put those guys together?

Speaker 1 Because in this moment where everyone's an expert, but no one is actually walking the walk, what would happen if you put those two guys together?

Speaker 1 And those are the people ultimately that I want my kids to learn from.

Speaker 1 And so that's what the first shows were, where basically it was cops that I was buddies with and gangsters that I was buddies with. But then it kind of evolved.

Speaker 1 And it was, yeah, special forces soldiers, surgeons, teachers, activists, actors. But I'm a fan of your guys' show.
You guys are actually really great at this. I am not.
I disagree with that.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, I'm really not. The point that I'm saying is that my show is never.
It's not about you. It's definitely not.

Speaker 1 And the one thing that we hear over and over about my show is he doesn't say anything. You're a facilitator.
That's great. I hope so.

Speaker 1 As I get older in both fatherhood and this career, I really keep coming back to intention. Intentions are everything.
Like, what are your fucking intentions?

Speaker 1 And every time that I've done one of those shows where I can get behind my intentions, forgive me, but when I used to play baseball, I had this coach in college who used to say, you're in the batter's box and all of a sudden you start spiraling.

Speaker 1 You're like, fuck, I can't hit this ball. Fuck, fuck, dude.
He's got, look at his curveball. What is it? And you start to spiral out of control.

Speaker 1 And this guy said that in those moments, you got to step the fuck out and remind yourself, yourself, why do you do this in the first place? Take yourself back. It's like, what are you doing this for?

Speaker 1 And if that is really clear and solid in the podcast thing for me, when I've had people on where I believe in this person, one day I want my son, Lil Bill Bernthal, to listen to this guy and be like, yeah, dad fucks with this guy.

Speaker 1 Dad says, watch this guy. It's not about who they voted for.
It's not about their politics. This motherfucker has integrity.
This motherfucker is about it.

Speaker 1 And the majority of the people that we have on our show, they've never been on camera before. And you guys do that too.
Like they've never done this.

Speaker 1 And I recognize that I'm asking them to do something that they're really not that comfortable with.

Speaker 1 And I do have a very weird relationship with it because, look, you guys, I'm sure people are just lining up to be. I mean, like, look at the people you guys have on.

Speaker 1 Like on our show, it's a little different. It's like, oh shit, that's right.
I remember my friend from DC. It's more that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 I'm sort of have to sell them on the fact that, hey, you know me.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to fuck with you. Anything you don't want in here, take it out.
You know, like you're good.

Speaker 1 And then in the same way, I know you're either a really good friend of mine or you're a friend of a friend's who say, this dude, there's no bullshit here. There's no bravado.
There's no bluster.

Speaker 1 This person, this woman, this man is the real thing. It's awesome.
I think people should check it out. The real ones with John Bernthal.
Watch the amateur. Watch.
the accountant to

Speaker 1 watch daredevil watch the bear my fucking goodness awesome i don't know how you have the endurance for it all

Speaker 2 watch the new Nolan.

Speaker 1 This was awesome. Thank you.
I really appreciate you guys having me. Yeah, you guys are.
I loved it.

Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you, brother.
Very much.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

Speaker 1 If you dare.

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Speaker 1 I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

Speaker 2 Hi.

Speaker 1 I'm really trying to figure out what, how that happened.

Speaker 2 You're late for the listener.

Speaker 2 23 minutes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would say more than just late. So I got back from dropping Delta off.
I was like, I got to work out.

Speaker 1 Then record.

Speaker 1 That was the plan for the day. That was the plan.
Then edit.

Speaker 1 And then I was like,

Speaker 1 I'm very tired. I'm going to take a 20-minute nap.
So it must have been 9.45. Okay.

Speaker 1 And I set my alarm for

Speaker 1 10.15.

Speaker 2 30-minute nap.

Speaker 1 But that's not, I now know that's not what I did. I was like, oh, I set it for 10-15.
Then I'll have a 40 minutes to work out. And then I'll be able to still do all the things.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Then I'm taking this nap. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And do you ever do this when you're taking a nap and you're like, you're kind of waking up a little bit? And I'm like, oh, God, this is so much longer than I thought. Like, am I going to,

Speaker 1 the alarm's going to go off any second.

Speaker 1 And then I'm like, okay, who cares? Right. And then I go back.
Okay. So I was weirdly conscious of how long.

Speaker 1 the nap was. And then I thought that was part of my dream.
Sure.

Speaker 1 Like, oh my God, this feels so long. Anyways, my alarm goes off.
Oh, okay, great. Then I look at the wall clock and I'm like, 11:15.
I'm like, 11:15.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You said it wrong.

Speaker 1 I did. It's more than that.
I knew I was setting it at 11:15, but for some reason.

Speaker 2 You knew you were setting it at 11:15?

Speaker 1 For some reason, that was 10:15. I was still going to have, I was sitting at 11.15 and I was going to have 45 minutes to work out, which makes no sense.
That's what I'm struggling with.

Speaker 2 And we started at 11:15. 11.

Speaker 1 I know. Okay.

Speaker 1 I just confused.

Speaker 2 You just got out of whack.

Speaker 1 I confused 11.15 for 10.15 is what happened.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that happens. I'm jealous.

Speaker 1 Yeah, were you sleepy? You would have liked to have slept longer. Big instead, you got over here on time.
And then I'm mostly.

Speaker 2 Actually, I was five minutes late and I was stressed.

Speaker 2 And then I'm running in stressed. And then you're not here.

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 1 Why were you late? Did you just have a long time?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 No, I was working. We had a call.

Speaker 1 This is a shameful fact check.

Speaker 2 We had a merch call, Easter egg.

Speaker 2 And then after that, I only had 30 minutes to take my shower and put on my makeup and get here. Okay.
Turns out.

Speaker 1 You had 40 minutes.

Speaker 2 35.

Speaker 1 Fuck, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 That's all right. Did you listen to the podcast I sent you yet?

Speaker 1 No, because you sent it to me late last night. Well, not late last night, but like nine o'clock at at night.
Yeah, probably. And so I couldn't listen to it then.
And this is another part of the thing.

Speaker 1 I was the full intention.

Speaker 2 8:27.

Speaker 1 I'm an hour fucked up. I'm not ready.

Speaker 1 No, my full intention was like, I'm going to listen to that while I work out. And then you and I are going to talk about it in the fact check.
I didn't make it to that workout.

Speaker 2 Easter egg again. There's so many Easter eggs already.

Speaker 1 This is all kind of, I think, reflective of what my updates would be. Okay.
Let's hear them. Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm going to hit you with the headline. I think this is miraculous.
Okay.

Speaker 1 And I think people will

Speaker 1 be scrutinizing of this. They'll be skeptical of these numbers, but I swear these are numbers.
I weigh myself every day.

Speaker 1 Preem, post

Speaker 1 duty.

Speaker 1 Wednesday, when we left for New York, I was 194 pounds

Speaker 1 in the morning, almost on the dot. Then when we got home on Sunday, I weighed myself 208.8 pounds.
Okay. So I gained 14.8 pounds

Speaker 1 in three days. That's cool.

Speaker 2 Well, you were in New York. You were probably eating.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, was I eating?

Speaker 2 You know what it might mean?

Speaker 1 Tell me.

Speaker 2 It might mean that that's what your body really wants to be at. And you're kind of always like

Speaker 2 a little under what your body wants.

Speaker 2 I think I feel like that a little bit. Like, if I just don't hold the reins.

Speaker 2 Yeah, if I'm not like actively like thinking about sort of what I'm eating and doing my farmer's caries and my wogs and all this, if I'm just like being.

Speaker 1 I want you to write a fitness manual as well.

Speaker 1 Wogs and farmer carries.

Speaker 2 Then I think my body at this stage in life wants to be at a certain number. And I'm like active at keeping it a little bit under that.
Yes, yes. But I think that's what it really naturally just wants.

Speaker 2 Should I just give it what it wants?

Speaker 1 You got to give your body what it wants.

Speaker 1 Mine is just eating so fast and so much. And just, I overate.
What'd you eat? Oh my God. Infinite hamburgers.
But a new thing that I'm here to give a testimonial for. Okay.

Speaker 1 I urge you to do on your next trip to New York. Have you ever been to Mercado, Little Spain? That's Jose Andres

Speaker 1 Market in Chelsea. Oh,

Speaker 2 then maybe.

Speaker 1 Oh, Monica, you're going to die. Wow.

Speaker 1 I'll add, I walk in and it kind of looks like a food court a little bit, right?

Speaker 2 The Chelsea market. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but it's not. It's so, so elevated and hand-built and everything's so good.
And the meat has been flown in from Spain and they have a cool little market.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so my intention was to go and get the hamburger there because remember, Jose was like, I make the best burger. Yes.
When we interviewed him.

Speaker 1 and so I go in there with the intention of getting that burger I invite Dr. Mike nice we got a really cool tour of the whole thing um I'm gonna cut to some of the things that came my way

Speaker 1 they take olives they press them then they gather the oil and whatever else came out of it and then they put it in some kind of calcium or do something to it it comes out on a spoon monica and it's an egg yolk

Speaker 1 have you had this

Speaker 2 no but that sounds like something they do at a michelin restaurant.

Speaker 1 Yes, it's um, it's got a now skin over it, but all it is is the olive oil, right? And it's a yolk, and you take the spoon and you put it, and then it pops in your mouth.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the taste, I couldn't believe how good this was. Best artichokes ever.
Then the big daddy burger then also recommended this more street burger.

Speaker 1 And it was, he's right. He had, it is, oh, yeah, Emily Burger's got some major competition.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 truthful? No.

Speaker 2 You're just honest.

Speaker 1 Now, don't let that break your heart. Okay.
I also ate at Emily Burger three times. Okay, good.
Yes. Good.
And Corner Bistro.

Speaker 2 Oh, I haven't been there in a while.

Speaker 1 Yes. So it was a good spot.

Speaker 2 It's a classic.

Speaker 1 Tour. Nice.

Speaker 2 Oh, this is a ding ding ding. Tell me.
This is a ding, ding, ding to a story I've been wanting to tell for a minute. David Chang.

Speaker 1 Oh, yes. Yes.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Because when I went to Napa with Callie,

Speaker 2 we got to the airport, Burbank Airport.

Speaker 2 Dream of all dreams, if you live in LA, to fly out of the Burbank airport.

Speaker 1 I don't want you to tell people about it, but yes.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 It's a blessing.

Speaker 2 You're in and out so fast, especially because I carried on. Can you imagine?

Speaker 1 I can't.

Speaker 2 And anyway, it was so exciting. We get to the airport.
We get to the vestibule. What's it called?

Speaker 1 Baggage claim? No. Terminal?

Speaker 2 Terminal, thank you. Okay.

Speaker 1 Vestibule. Vestibule 3.
You're flying out of vestibule.

Speaker 2 Sometimes you just have to put in a word.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I agree. I agree.
And it had similar amount of syllables.

Speaker 2 I think it could count. Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, we got to the terminal. Vestibule.
Terminal sounds

Speaker 1 methyl.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Just gate. What? Gate.

Speaker 1 Gate. Gate.
But then for the Bill Gates conspiracy theorist, that's a problem too.

Speaker 2 Okay, we get there and Callie's like, oh, I think that's

Speaker 2 that fancy chef. And I was like, oh, it's David Chang.

Speaker 2 Now we've interviewed David Chang.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Additionally, we've also like been in Spotify events with him. Like we've seen him over time.
It's not, but I, but I knew, I was like, he is not going to know me out of context.

Speaker 2 So I'm going to like not say anything to him.

Speaker 1 Okay, you decide I'm not going to.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But I, you know, I was kind of like, well, but I really don't want to get near him because I don't want this to be an awkward or like if he's like, oh, I kind of do recognize her, but

Speaker 2 I got kind of anxious.

Speaker 1 You overthought it, maybe a little bit. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, we got called up. So we went, but so something happened.
And we got sent up there, but it was the wrong gate. So everyone was like in line and it was the wrong thing.

Speaker 2 And Callie and I were first. So the

Speaker 2 woman told us it was wrong. And so then I was like, oh, and I like look over behind to kind of telegram.
And it's, and he's there. Okay.
Right there.

Speaker 1 Right in your face.

Speaker 2 So then I had, I was, I, I felt I had to at that point

Speaker 2 kind of say, so I was like,

Speaker 1 hey, oh, oh,

Speaker 1 so uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 And he was like, hey, and I could tell, again, I knew, I was like, I knew this is going to happen. He's going to kind of know he should know that I'm not like a stranger who's saying, hey.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Well, even that tone of hey, you told him I know you.
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 But, and he was like, hey, how are you? And I was like, oh, I'm good. And then I just left.
Or no, I said, how are you? He said, good. And I said, and then I just left.
Or Callie was like, let's go.

Speaker 2 You know, she got me out of there.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 she cut me out. She whisked me away.

Speaker 2 She had to step in. But like, I know.
I don't know what happened. Clearly, I should have just been like, Monica from Armchair X.

Speaker 1 Oh, I know. It's just so easy to do that.

Speaker 2 but it felt

Speaker 1 impossible

Speaker 2 i was so befuddled at the vestibule

Speaker 2 and and then i just we just stood on the side like idiots because also now you're now you're really

Speaker 2 flogging yourself yeah yeah and then we get to the airport leak going home and i was and and she said what if david chang is here i was like he no he probably already i'm sure he came here for like to cook.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. And then left.
It's fine.

Speaker 2 And then we're sitting at the terminal gate and she's like, he's here. She's so excited.

Speaker 1 Of course. Oh, my God.
She wants round two of this. Thrilled.
Uh-huh. And I was like, oh, no.

Speaker 2 So again, again, avoiding. And I managed to avoid this time completely until, so Callie's sitting at the window.
I'm sitting at the aisle. All of a sudden, she just looks at me with this face.

Speaker 2 And I look over and guess who's sitting in your row?

Speaker 1 In my single banger? Correct. Oh, wow.
Now what?

Speaker 2 Ignore the whole time. Oh,

Speaker 2 I had to ignore him the entire time. And he was like

Speaker 2 kind of having an issue with the bat. Well, his, he was holding a thing we think is bread.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 And I wanted to know where the bread was from.

Speaker 1 Sure, sure, sure, sure.

Speaker 2 But I didn't, I just, I just like looked like to the right the whole flight.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 that's intense it was so upsetting and then

Speaker 2 she was like do you want to switch seats i was like well no that's really weird still think you thought he smelled yeah and or his bread smelled

Speaker 1 i did

Speaker 1 smell the bread of bread well i don't know what it was i don't know what it was

Speaker 2 okay but i did want to know

Speaker 2 and i guess and we made a plan that if for some reason there was another a third interaction if there was another interaction that i had i I could ask, oh, what you got in there?

Speaker 2 That was my blind reason.

Speaker 1 You're really flailing.

Speaker 1 Is it red?

Speaker 2 Where'd you get it? We can't talk to him again. It's funny.

Speaker 2 Sorry, Rob. None of us can eat at any of these restaurants or do any of this.

Speaker 1 Do you want me to text him?

Speaker 2 Guys, stop it.

Speaker 2 Why do all of you have this deep relationship with him and he doesn't even recognize me at the airport?

Speaker 1 He's in Idaho every year. I see my food stuff often, too.

Speaker 2 It really humbled me.

Speaker 1 Oh, man, I'm sorry you had that.

Speaker 1 I feel like it brought you back to seventh grade or something.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like in the lunch

Speaker 1 with Callie. Yeah,

Speaker 1 like it feels, I'm sure

Speaker 1 a lot of old muscle memory was triggered.

Speaker 2 It did feel like we were in the

Speaker 1 quarterback or something, or we were at the mall. You gave him nothing, just familiarity, and then potentially a false curiosity about his bag.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. He said that like a little monster.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Hello, David.

Speaker 2 Even after I decided, God, it would have just been so easy for me to say Monica from Armchair Expert. I didn't, I had the opportunity.
I didn't do it again.

Speaker 1 I will say in his defense, he was on Zoom. That was a Zoom interview.

Speaker 2 We saw him at the Spotify dinner.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen him multiple times.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Obviously, not as many times as the two of you have seen him.

Speaker 1 Right. I'm on Zoom.

Speaker 2 Or I'm just not memorable, which is probably true.

Speaker 1 Not true.

Speaker 2 It's out of context. It's very true.
I wasn't with you. It was awful.
And I really want to know what the bread was.

Speaker 1 Oh, can you ask?

Speaker 2 I'll ask.

Speaker 1 I'll ask. Hey, my friend Monica was on a flight with you up to Napa.

Speaker 1 Opposite experience. My kids made fun of me for the first three days in Hawaii.

Speaker 1 I don't ever talk to anyone on an airplane. I just want to watch my...
shows I've brought on my iPACs, and that's my goal.

Speaker 2 Oh, you mean like the people you're with?

Speaker 1 If I'm seated next to somebody, I'm not striking up a conversation. Oh, oh, yeah, no.
Yeah, I'm trying to watch all this content I downloaded on my iPAX. Yeah, I've got it so mapped out.

Speaker 1 Like, I'm going to watch this many episodes of this.

Speaker 1 But I got sent a video of a dude that was filming riding behind me on a motorcycle at Circuit of America's in Austin, the racetrack.

Speaker 1 Before takeoff, it was just like I had enough signal to download this video and watch a lap. And I'm watching it.

Speaker 1 And then I hear the guy next to me says, uh oh is that coda and because he immediately knew it was coda from like two turns i go oh yeah it's coda do you do you have you been there and he goes oh yeah i do a lot of track days there and his name was boyd

Speaker 1 and monica entire trip to hawaii five and a half hours we talked like two schoolgirls wow

Speaker 1 boyd what a stud he's a builder who lives on maui and is so into cars and everything and my kids just couldn't get over it. They'd never seen me.

Speaker 1 Oh, they'd get up and go, or I'd have to take Delta to the bathroom. She'd go, wow, you're really talking to that guy, huh? There's like, does he need a break?

Speaker 2 Yeah, you were talking to Zera.

Speaker 2 Well, I guess we have strengths and weaknesses. You talk a lot and I don't talk at all.
Nope.

Speaker 1 That's, that was in no reference to your story other than it reminded me I had. a real ideal seatmate, which never happens.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't talk either.

Speaker 1 It was such a fun and good conversation. It felt kind of crazy to not exchange numbers at the end.
I can see how people fall in love on airplanes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, meet cutes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I told him where I was staying and I kept hoping he'd pop around. I kept at dinner, I would like to look at him.
I'm like, I wonder if he'll just

Speaker 2 like a love interest.

Speaker 2 And what happens is you're talking to the kids at the restaurant and you're chit-chatting, and then you just see like out in the distance, there's Boyd, and he's standing there, and he does a little wave, and then you get up and you beeline, and then you make out.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 all but the make out.

Speaker 2 That's how it goes.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more armchair expert

Speaker 1 if you dare.

Speaker 1 We are supported by Quince. So I'm standing in my closet the other day and I realize I'm reaching for the same three things over and over again.

Speaker 1 And they're all coming from Quince, which got me thinking, when did I become that guy who actually cares about where his clothes come from? I'll tell you when, when I discovered Quince.

Speaker 2 Exactly. I was at a happy hour a couple of days ago with a very cool woman named Marco, very chic.
And I was like, ooh, I love your pants. I love your sweater.
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Speaker 2 And I was like, I should have known.

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Speaker 1 That's q-u-in-n-ce-e.com/slash dax. Free shipping and 365-day returns.
Quince.com/slash dax.

Speaker 1 I have one more update from the trip. Okay.
Okay. So we went because Kristen is, again, Time 100 most influential people.
Yeah. We did not.
I did not. And one, I know she didn't either.

Speaker 1 She, we didn't, she didn't know. We didn't look at the list.
We didn't know who was who was nominated other than her. I guess not now.
You're not nominated. You're declared.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So my joke the two days leading up to it is,

Speaker 1 you know, I bet the first 40, it's so obvious, right? They're the committee. Oh, yeah, that person, that person.
And then 40 through 85

Speaker 1 is probably a little, takes more time. Okay.
My hunch is 85, the last 15, I bet is like a month of them in a room.

Speaker 1 What is that? So I never even heard of that, but what? No, they can't be on the list. Like, I just imagine it gets harder and harder to make a case.

Speaker 1 It's a lot of people to say. Sure.
Anyways, go to the event. And to our excitement, Adam and Naomi Scott are there.

Speaker 2 Adam was selected for them.

Speaker 1 Adam's one.

Speaker 2 So like, oh, shoot. That's fun.
Very fun. Friend of the pod.

Speaker 1 Friend of the pod. Just a friend, good friend.
I have an update.

Speaker 2 You texted him?

Speaker 1 Rob.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow. This is like Lionel Ritchie.

Speaker 1 Uh-oh. Haha.
I did say hi when we left Burbank for nap, but I didn't get a response. So I wasn't sure if it was actually her, or maybe she did, and I didn't hear, or maybe I'm just caslighting myself.

Speaker 1 I thought it was her. So it was pretty strange when I returned on the same flight sitting next to her.

Speaker 1 If I had doubled down and said hi again, it would have seemed very odd, especially if it wasn't her. This was really a curb your enthusiasm moment.

Speaker 1 I did bring home all this bread that my kids never ate.

Speaker 1 Good job, Rob. That's a great

Speaker 2 update. Leave it up.

Speaker 1 Leave it up.

Speaker 2 That goes to show, you know, we both were thinking. I said hi, though.
I said hi.

Speaker 2 And then he said hi.

Speaker 1 It really demonstrates just how

Speaker 1 mean a human being is.

Speaker 1 It was like, is that her?

Speaker 1 Well, if it was her, she would have been a little more engaging. No, no.
Then she fucking iced me out on the flight, would never look at me. You owe him an apology.

Speaker 1 How dare you?

Speaker 2 How dare you twist this into that?

Speaker 2 It was, I recognized him.

Speaker 1 i said hi you should send him a loaf of bread or something he should send me one why why am i you're in trouble why am i in trouble i slept till 1 p.m

Speaker 1 this is great this is great we were both hold on i gotta take a picture of that and send it to cal yeah that's really funny stuff ha ha he really wrote a long look at that he gave you a paragraph what did rob what did you say i just said that you brought it up on the fact check that you saw him on the way to napa and that could be from Natalie.

Speaker 1 I mean, we don't know the providence of this.

Speaker 2 Rob, are you being harassed?

Speaker 1 It's 100% him.

Speaker 1 But it's how hard to trust Rob.

Speaker 2 I can't believe you can text him like that. I can't even talk to him in real life.

Speaker 1 Oh, he'll just be like, hey, Dick, what the fuck's up? Monica shit, the shitter slacks around you.

Speaker 2 Why didn't you talk to Monica?

Speaker 1 Yeah, rat.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, it's hard to be a person.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it just, I think it demonstrates how awkward everyone feels at all times.

Speaker 1 Even if you're both successful in your own right, you're still walking around like you're in seventh grade and you're not sure the person knows who you are.

Speaker 2 Ah, seventh grade lunchroom.

Speaker 1 Okay, back to time 100.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 The event is, and I know I'm going to get myself excluded right now from ever being nominated. I'm looking around the room.
Immediately, I'm so excited, you guys.

Speaker 1 As everyone knows, I want to be around Simone Biles so badly. Me too.
She was there.

Speaker 1 I went up to her mom and told her mom how much I love her and I wanted to know if everyone asked her to do her hair now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that was cute.

Speaker 1 And then there's a bunch of people I don't recognize because they've done something heroic around the globe that year. Yeah.
And so the thing kicks off, and it's like Snoop Dogg is emceeing.

Speaker 1 What a party. Snoop Dogg.
He's right there. That's so exciting.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, how is this dude a better host than everybody? Like, he's reading off the prompter like all people, but it feels so good and natural. He's just an ace.
Yeah. That's a blast.
Woo!

Speaker 1 Let's go now to this honoree. Immediately, a microphone.
And this woman has been freed like 68 days earlier from Hamas.

Speaker 1 And she tells this long story, this absolutely one of the worst stories you've ever heard in your life.

Speaker 1 And then begging for her husband, who's still there

Speaker 1 in tunnels to be released.

Speaker 2 This is horrible.

Speaker 1 And you're like, you went from like Snoop Dogg cheering. So it goes from that.
And now you're just kind of like, oh, man, fuck. I feel bad that I was having a good time.
Sure.

Speaker 1 And then back to Snoop like, bring out this great pop country star. And this guy gets out and he starts rocking on a guitar.
And he's like, everybody on your feet.

Speaker 1 And now we're all standing up and we're dancing. And then it goes to immediately,

Speaker 2 you know, like a climate change.

Speaker 1 Oh, yes. It was just like this.
Woo, woo. You didn't know what it was on TV.
You can see where you would be, you'd have the wrong look on your face.

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 1 You just couldn't settle into a fucking mood or a tone. or if we were there to have fun and celebrate, or if we were there to really cry and be fucking heartbroken and bummed.

Speaker 2 Isn't that life?

Speaker 1 Ah, it was a very accelerated version of life. Wow.

Speaker 2 Speaking of New York City, when I didn't go to New York, something really, this was really the opposite of Sim and the opposite of a me cute. Okay.

Speaker 2 So I was supposed to go, as we know, I didn't go because of Buddhism. Yeah.
And

Speaker 2 i don't know if i should say i won't say who there is a person in this industry not not the podcasting industry the entertainment industry who i

Speaker 2 love

Speaker 2 i'm it's not ben and matt this isn't a i think potentially an available person oh wow

Speaker 2 very

Speaker 2 extremely attractive

Speaker 2 I love him.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 So I was supposed to go to SNL when I was there. Yes.
John Hamm Hamm was hosting. So I was supposed to go to SNL with my friend Sally.

Speaker 2 And I didn't go, obviously, because I didn't go to New York. And she texted me the next day.

Speaker 2 She said,

Speaker 2 I met your boyfriend last night. And I was like, oh, Ben or Matt.
And I was still upset about that, obviously. And she said, no,

Speaker 2 this person.

Speaker 1 The new Ben and Matt.

Speaker 2 And he was backstage

Speaker 2 with her, like with where I would have been.

Speaker 1 Oh, no, with Sally.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and

Speaker 2 at the after party, and she talked about the after party because she said he's like, he looked kind of alone.

Speaker 1 Oh, you love when someone's alone. Unless it's David Chang.

Speaker 2 I know. Maybe it actually, maybe.

Speaker 1 You could have had the most regrettable experience of your life, given this. I'm glad you.
I'm glad you had a trial run with David Chang because that wasn't even, there's no stakes.

Speaker 2 No, that's what made it hard.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't know what happened.
I think it would have been great.

Speaker 1 Can I play a role in this?

Speaker 1 Do I have access to this person?

Speaker 2 Well, we could maybe have this person on. There's a project.

Speaker 2 There's a project coming up that I think we could potentially have this person on the show. Now, we will not say who it is when it happens.
Oh, boy.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Anyway, so I missed a huge meet-cute opportunity. Yeah.
And I, it like kind of, like, I think about it every other day

Speaker 2 while I masturbate it.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, that was a joke. That was a joke.

Speaker 2 That was a joke. But for real, it was sad.

Speaker 1 That's sad. I know.
I'm sorry. The opposite of Boyd and I.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 2 It's the opposite. I'm having a lot of opposites of you and Boyd.

Speaker 2 It's really unfortunate.

Speaker 2 Really unfortunate. Anywho.

Speaker 1 So I had a fucking time of my life dinner with Vincent. Oh, Vincent,

Speaker 1 friend of the pod. Oh, man.
What a boy. I love him so much.
Can I say one more thing? Yeah. We had as much fun with Naomi and Adam as when I used to go to New York like in my 30s.

Speaker 2 Fun.

Speaker 1 We ended up in a back elevator, like a service elevator to get out of there. And as we got in there, there was a room service tray, someone's room service tray.

Speaker 1 And there was a half-dranking cup of coffee. And I said to Adam, How much would you pay me to drink this cup of coffee? Would you get five dollars? And as I was saying, would you pay me five dollars?

Speaker 1 I just drank this cup of coffee.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 well, okay, you didn't like that story. It was so funny.
It felt like I was in seventh grade, and he was so, he's putting hand sanitizer on, and I just drank a random person's half cup of coffee.

Speaker 1 And then I picked up the tray, and then what was the item in there? And then I took a scoop of it. It was an old dessert.
Yeah, yeah, it was like that.

Speaker 1 I was acting like I was back when Aaron and I were

Speaker 1 causing too much trouble. I couldn't believe how much fun I had out on the town.
Like, I was in my 30s. And then I've been tired for two days.
Oh,

Speaker 2 you know how I haven't been able to finish a book? Yeah. And I've had like.

Speaker 1 Did you finish all fours? You did, right? Yeah, all fours. Was that the last book I finished?

Speaker 2 And I've been reading Intermezzo.

Speaker 2 Ding, ding, ding, hats,

Speaker 2 hat riddle that we'll do later. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I've been reading that since December, and I have like a hundred pages left and I just can't do it. Like I can't do it.
I stare at it on the nightstand and it has like, it has like

Speaker 2 squiggles coming out of it, like deep, like brown squiggles. And I don't want to touch it.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So, you know, I have this block about reading and then my friend Maddie, who's in town, she recommended a book. So I went to Skylight and I bought it.

Speaker 2 And then on the way out, there was another book there

Speaker 2 that I grabbed last minute because it looked fun. I judged a book by its cover.

Speaker 1 Okay, good.

Speaker 2 And I've read 130 pages in two days.

Speaker 1 Oh, really? Yeah. And I

Speaker 2 have high hopes that I'm going to finish it this week. Oh, good.
And I love it. What is it? I think you would like it.
Although it's fiction, you don't read too much fiction. That's right.

Speaker 2 But it's called

Speaker 2 Atavists.

Speaker 1 Atavists?

Speaker 2 Atavists. Something.

Speaker 1 Show me the cover because I want to see what grabbed your attention.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a word I don't know. I've never heard of, and there's cute little foxes and bunnies on it.
And then the name, Millet, is that the author's name? Yeah, Lydia Millett. That's a cool name.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and let me tell you. What won the poets are finalists.
Finalist.

Speaker 2 The word atavism, coined by a botanist and popularized by a criminologist, refers to the resurfacing of a primitive evolutionary trait or urge in a modern being.

Speaker 2 And it's all these short stories, but they're all connected. All the people are connected.

Speaker 2 And it's such a funny and interesting exploration of human behavior oh i would like that yeah you would like naughty human behavior yeah i mean no some some naughty some fringe some

Speaker 2 some horrifying some

Speaker 2 the beautiful the gambit gambit

Speaker 1 you say gambit you really hit that b I say the gamut oh no am I wrong no I think it is a gam the queen's gambit I think it's with a B I just, I don't hit that B. You really nail it.
Gambit. Gambit.

Speaker 1 The whole gamut is what I say. Gamut's also a word, too.
Is it the same word? A complete range or scope of something?

Speaker 2 That's it.

Speaker 1 Oh, so you've been using the wrong word.

Speaker 1 Gambit, strategic move, or often in a gamer situation. So I think it is the Queen's Gambit.
Oh, no. Okay, so it's the whole gamut.

Speaker 1 That's okay. This is great.
Real-time learning. We claim to love learning, but now we're going to

Speaker 1 enjoy that learn.

Speaker 2 Strategic move, often involving some kind of sacrifice, intending to gain a future advantage.

Speaker 1 So then you could say, like, he was running a gambit,

Speaker 1 meaning some kind of strategy against me.

Speaker 2 Chess, politics, business, and even social interactions.

Speaker 1 And people don't watch you on the fact that they are missing out on 99% of the ride.

Speaker 1 That look.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. Anyway, that was...
You don't think I've been beat down enough today?

Speaker 2 But it's all all right.

Speaker 2 It's the truth. I don't know words.

Speaker 1 No, you know,

Speaker 1 you have an incredible vocabulary.

Speaker 2 Anyway, gamut. Gamut.
Runs the gamut.

Speaker 1 That's helpful because I was like, could I really be dropping the bee that much? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, okay, some facts.
This is for John Bernthal.

Speaker 1 Oh, wonderful.

Speaker 2 Quaker values. Quaker values, often summarized by the acronym SPICES, are centered around simplicity, peace, integrity, community, equality, service, and stewardship.

Speaker 2 These principles guide Quakers' lives and their interactions with the world, emphasizing direct spiritual experience, inclusivity, and a commitment to social justice.

Speaker 1 All right, say on them again and let's say what we think our worst two qualities are of that list. Okay.
So simplicity.

Speaker 2 Peace. Peace.
Integrity. Integrity.
Community. Equality.
Service, and stewardship. Something's happening when I'm saying S's recently.
Are you hearing it?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 What happened? I'm getting kind of anxious that I'm having.

Speaker 1 Do you have a lisp?

Speaker 2 Like, something is going on, yeah.

Speaker 2 Mr. Dax, Mr.
Diagnostics. Maybe it's inflamed.

Speaker 1 Spices.

Speaker 2 Spices. Okay.

Speaker 1 Simplicity. Oh, I would say simplicity is my weak.
That's weak, right?

Speaker 2 Well, I guess depending on how...

Speaker 1 What aspect of your life are you looking at? Right, right.

Speaker 1 But I don't think I make things simple per se i think i tend to have a lot of balls in the air all at just the same time trying to do too many things go too many places have too many vehicles sure trying to live 10 different lives at once not good at simplicity okay it wouldn't work for me either i don't even aspire to that one no you should quaker values i don't have to live all of them do i can just like haul a cart

Speaker 1 and then integrity i i think i'm mid-level there that's good simplicity peace integrity community equality service and stewardship i go peace probably

Speaker 2 yeah how about you those are really linked i would say yeah simplicity and peace um i think my worst spices

Speaker 1 are

Speaker 2 service okay

Speaker 2 and maybe stewardship like you said stewardship's kind of like what is it again I don't really get it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So it's like, you're the steward of your flock.
You're the steward of your wealth. You're the steward of your objects.
Do you maintain them? Do you cherish them?

Speaker 1 Do you take good care of everything that you were kind of gifted? And are you responsible with all the stuff that you were gifted?

Speaker 2 Well, not objects.

Speaker 1 Not objects.

Speaker 2 But if we're talking about, if we're getting more abstract about it, yes, I think I am a good steward of like people.

Speaker 2 Yes, yes. But I don't think of objects.
But so, okay, maybe I won't pick that. Maybe simplicity for me too.
Yeah. I don't live a very simple life.
Right.

Speaker 1 I don't want to live.

Speaker 1 That feels akin to boring.

Speaker 2 No, there are times, especially since I've become Buddhist, that I've like

Speaker 2 had thoughts

Speaker 2 of like, yeah, what is all this? What is all this? Like, we're just in so much noise and distraction. And

Speaker 2 it could just be simple.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But I think if you know about yourself, and I've had therapists tell me this, and I've had other kind of clinicians tell me this, like, Like, I am an arousal personality type.

Speaker 1 Like, that is, I love being aroused.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 I think it would be, I see the value in it, but I also don't think that's my path. Yeah.
You know, that works. That

Speaker 2 makes sense. Yeah.
You're just not going to be a Quaker.

Speaker 1 No, but I like it a lot. If I, well, it'd be up there if I'm forced to join

Speaker 1 some kind of religion. Yeah.
This is good. This is when my friend Christine joined.
She's very, very intelligent. Okay.

Speaker 2 Who was on the class?

Speaker 1 Well, that sounds vaguely like stoicism to me, by the way.

Speaker 2 It also sounds like Buddhism.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's all these things are real.

Speaker 2 All the good ones are the same.

Speaker 1 Did you watch Heretic, that movie? Yes.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 I've been meaning to bring it up to you.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 Great.

Speaker 1 I watched it on the airplane.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I liked it.

Speaker 1 Me too.

Speaker 2 I love him. Me too.
Hugh Grant.

Speaker 1 Hugh Grant is so skilled.

Speaker 2 He really is.

Speaker 1 He's so charming. It's absolutely bonkers.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 1 he's beautifully. He's still so good looking.
Yeah, it's a great movie.

Speaker 2 Great movie about religion.

Speaker 1 Iterations.

Speaker 1 I keep thinking of the word iterations everywhere I go. I took a long bike ride yesterday and I was just like thinking on iterations.
That's a big thing and theme of the movie.

Speaker 2 It's

Speaker 1 points out how many religions had all these same tenets prior to the Judeo-Christian ones. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But it is a horror movie.

Speaker 1 It is a horror movie. The girls are like.
I like it, though. It's my kind of horror movie.
It's just creepy and suspenseful. It's not like machetes and chainsaws and ghouls.

Speaker 2 And it's, you know, a kind of a crazy person, but his theories

Speaker 2 aren't that crazy. I mean, it's, it's.

Speaker 1 This is consistent with all these things. It's like Naxium's really good until a line in the sand.

Speaker 1 But also that movie hinges on him as an actor because he keeps getting them to stay and quiet their fears. And if it's not Hugh Grant, yeah, like he, they that was really cast-dependent.

Speaker 2 It was

Speaker 2 the girls, there, so it's two girls and him in the whole movie,

Speaker 1 and they turn out to be way smarter than you think, which I like.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 they were great too. That it was, I highly recommend that, yeah, me too.
Okay, the cast of the class is

Speaker 2 Andrea Anders, John, Lizzie Kaplan, Friend of the Pod, Jesse Tyler Ferguson,

Speaker 2 Friend of the Pod, Heather Goldenhirsh, we haven't met her yet. No, Sean Maguire, not quite yet, Jason Ritter, friend of the pod.

Speaker 2 First live show.

Speaker 2 Those are first live show. Those are the regulars that I see.
Well, Lucy punches in 13 episodes, but it looks like the rest are 19.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 What a cast. Great cast.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 The current rubles to American dollars, one Russian ruble equals 0.012 US dollar. 100 U.S.
dollars is 8,403.38 rubles.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so 84

Speaker 1 ruples per buck.

Speaker 2 Okay, the price of Bitcoin today

Speaker 1 is this is a random Bitcoin update.

Speaker 2 94,180.77 down 123.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but that's up. Last time he did it, it was 88.

Speaker 2 Okay, so maybe it went on the rebound. Well, no, because today it's down negative 123.02.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 So it must have rebounded and then

Speaker 1 this cryptocurrency ride.

Speaker 2 It really is.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and the stock market.

Speaker 2 And we're tracking it.

Speaker 1 Stock market's very wild ride, too.

Speaker 1 A lot of wildness out there.

Speaker 2 There is. I just wanted to shout out his wife who works in a ER trauma center.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, that's so cool.

Speaker 2 It's so cool. It's very ER.
It's very the pit. Uh-huh.
And I think that's admirable. Very admirable.
Me too.

Speaker 2 And she's probably living simplicity, peace, integrity, community, equality, service, and stewardship, all the spices.

Speaker 1 Probably.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And that's it.

Speaker 1 Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1 Love you. Love you.

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