Walton Goggins

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Speaker 1 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by Leslie Stahl.

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 She comes up occasionally. Back in the old days, she would pop up a lot.

Speaker 2 That is high praise.

Speaker 1 Very high praise. I love Leslie Stahl.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she's great.

Speaker 1 She's She's a firecracker. Okay, long time coming.
Number one current obsession as an actor going on three years now, probably Walton Goggins.

Speaker 1 Walton Goggins, goggle glasses, Uncle Baby Billy's Bible bonkers.

Speaker 1 This guy's an alliteration wet dream. Yes.
I love Walton Goggins.

Speaker 2 I mean, he's an incredible actor, but he was also a beautiful person.

Speaker 1 Such an interesting,

Speaker 1 colorful person.

Speaker 1 There should be an award for just best across the board actor. It's not on a single project, and it's just, it's like best dramatic, best comedy, whatever.

Speaker 1 There's just best actor, and I think Walton would be the shoe-in. I agree.
Because there's nobody doing comedy better, and there's nobody doing drama better.

Speaker 1 Fallout, justified, righteous gemstones, vice principles, the hateful eight.

Speaker 1 He stole the hateful eight, which is hard to do. That's a hell of a cast.
Season three of the white lotus.

Speaker 1 It wasn't enough he was in my favorite comedy show Righteous Gemson, or that he was in my favorite action show, Fallout. Now he had to join my favorite dramedy, White Lotus.

Speaker 2 He hits all the genres.

Speaker 1 What a dick. Also, Walton Goggins goggle glasses.
Learn more at gogginsgoggles.com.

Speaker 2 You'll hear us in the goggles at the top of the show.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we'll be fully, if you're watching, we're adorned in the

Speaker 1 Goggins goggle glasses. Yeah, we are.
Okay, now, this is a big merch update.

Speaker 2 Yes, huge update.

Speaker 1 So we were unable to do our own merch. We have to do our merch through Amazon Wondry.
We have asked them if we can just do it while we're getting that sorted.

Speaker 1 And we have a one-month window where we've got a bunch of really cool, well-thought-out merch. You can go to www.armchairexpertpod.com.

Speaker 1 Bunch of cool designs, a lot of things that were on the limited edition sweatshirts are now making their way to t-shirts.

Speaker 2 With some additional designs and some sweats. And it's a really cool little collection.

Speaker 1 yes and this is not calculated into a pressure cooker but it will be about a month long that we're allowed to do this i mean there's a chance we might be able to continue it we don't know yet we don't know just letting you guys know it's up we know we have the month so order now there'll be a delay because we have to make it all and ship it so if you need it overnight that's probably not gonna sale it's a pre-sale but go there and order all the stuff you want and then it'll get to you at some time go to www.ivershared iron

Speaker 1 get your merch please enjoy walton Goggins. Cockle glasses.

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Speaker 1 This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So many of us are really impacted by the colder seasons when it gets dark so much earlier and the days feel shorter than ever.

Speaker 2 Yeah, me, me, I'm the one. I feel horrible when it's seasonal affective disorder.

Speaker 1 Yes, you do take a

Speaker 1 hit. I do.
When it gets dark. You know how it goes.
Life gets busy, but that's exactly why shorter days don't have to be so dismal.

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Speaker 1 He's an armchair.

Speaker 1 He's an all-chance.

Speaker 1 Oh, hey, whoa, wait a minute. Whoa, is there a guest? Go ahead.
I think we have the star of the show. I'm just the guest star.

Speaker 1 Monty, you want to slide yours

Speaker 1 in there for you? Yes, I would.

Speaker 1 We could start in them. Oh, my God.
He brought you specifically blue. Honey, sit on the couch for half a second.
You're not even Mike, but pop your picture. Push this product.

Speaker 1 This bitch can move product.

Speaker 3 Pickleball, skydiving, wear it on the boat, scuba diving.

Speaker 1 You ever cut onions in these bad boys?

Speaker 3 Oh, I've cut onions in them. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Nothing, there's no penetration.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Very comfortable.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they're comfortable.

Speaker 1 This feels like we're having an interview on a chairlift on the way up the mountain. Which kind of happens.

Speaker 1 You're sitting on that chairlift for minutes and minutes, and you got them talking about some stuff.

Speaker 2 I feel like this is such a good product for you. You know how sometimes people have brands that feel like I don't get the A to B.
This is an A.

Speaker 1 Why does Tom Cruise have lawn care equipment?

Speaker 2 Exactly. It makes sense.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 But does he have lawn care? Perfect.

Speaker 1 But does he have law? Does he lawn buyer? Yes, not.

Speaker 1 Top gun mower.

Speaker 2 Say the name out loud.

Speaker 3 Walton Goggins goggle glasses.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's as close as you can get to Uncle Baby Baby Billy's Bible bunkers. Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's some similarities there.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's just a nod. Just a little thing.

Speaker 3 It worked out for Baby Billy. Maybe it'll work out for me.

Speaker 3 I'm a good athlete.

Speaker 1 I'm not a great athlete at all.

Speaker 3 But really, the thing that I got out of playing sports more than anything else was I just love the equipment, man. I just love putting on the football pads.

Speaker 1 I love the gloves.

Speaker 3 I mean, I love pep rallies. Let me ask you, wearing them right now,

Speaker 3 do you think that you would go for a pickleball shot that you might otherwise not go for since you have a strap on your head?

Speaker 2 Hunter Pete, I feel very cool in these.

Speaker 1 Honey, if you walk straight out of here and get in my Z-Wagon and drive the stick shift like you're Mario fucking Andretti, because of those, I won't be shocked at all.

Speaker 2 I've never driven a shot.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 3 We live 15 minutes from a ski resort where we are now in the Hudson Valley. This isn't like Aspen, Colorado, but it's got a vibe.
It's a super cool place. And I drop my kid off at school.

Speaker 3 And like any good dad, I'll go skiing.

Speaker 1 Like most American dads.

Speaker 3 Yeah, like 10 runs and then I'll have a beer oh what are you gonna sit outside and there's a fire pit kind of out there and then go home and take a nap and sober up everyone I promise and go pick up my kid but one particular day I was just sitting out and it's cold and I got these goggles on whatever the Oakley cool glasses are just sitting there having a beer I said I never want to take these glasses off Sure.

Speaker 3 Where are we all when it comes to reading glasses? Do you need them? Do you not need them?

Speaker 1 And go.

Speaker 2 A year and a half ago, my eyes died. Yeah.
I don't know what happened, but it was overnight. And now I'm at a one, I guess, is my prescription.

Speaker 2 I don't think they're very strong, but when my kids put them on, they make quite a bit of fun. You get a headache instantly.
I do have to wear them a lot.

Speaker 3 With my wife, who's older than I am. Just a couple of years, baby.
I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 Shout out. I wasn't going to say

Speaker 3 that.

Speaker 1 Two years and two days. November 8th, she's a Scorpio.

Speaker 3 I won't say the year, baby.

Speaker 1 You couldn't even see me wink, can you?

Speaker 3 Because you don't really know what's going on in my thoughts but she said it's coming for you and i said i don't think so and then literally she said it'll happen overnight and it did and then the next night you know blind laid down to read and blind your representatives your publicists i bet in their best case scenario they hoped we would talk about these glasses for 30 seconds yeah i'm guessing

Speaker 1 they're optimistic state they're like i pray they bring them up and i hope they do 30 seconds on them And we've done legit a good 15. We've done 15 minutes on these things.
It's time to talk about it.

Speaker 1 Don't get out of your hair. You guys have time.
It's so good to see you. I want to tell you sincerely, 850 guests.
She's asked to come meet, I think, four people.

Speaker 1 Where she said, what time are you recording? I'm going to make sure I'm not doing anything. I must meet this person.
And you're one of four. Well,

Speaker 1 we've worked together.

Speaker 1 Oops.

Speaker 3 Way to go, Dax.

Speaker 1 Fucking work. Not only do we work together.
So sorry.

Speaker 2 But Dax's point stands, people are in and out of this yard all the time. People that I know, people that I don't know, people that I respect, people that I'm fans of.

Speaker 2 And I've come in to say hi to maybe four or five people, and you are definitely one of them because,

Speaker 2 how do you even say it?

Speaker 1 You're a number one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have the evidence. I have on this show numerous times said you are my number one.

Speaker 1 So far away.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I got to put these all before.

Speaker 1 They're great to mask public crying too. We left that out.

Speaker 1 There isn't anyone I've ever seen that is apex drama and apex comedy the way you are. It seems impossible, to be honest.
To go from righteous to fall out in one year, it's staggering.

Speaker 2 And the fact that you were in that disgusting mask on Fallout and every woman in America was still like, I want that sexy radiation cowboy in my bedroom once a week.

Speaker 1 You got the rhythm. We love you.
I'm glad I got to see you. It's really interesting.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you don't really have the body of a beer drinker. When you said that, I was like, I don't buy it.

Speaker 1 He's one of these guys, though. We're going to get into it.
He's one of these charms. Those are yours.
They're yours. And yours look great as a hairband.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I love it as

Speaker 1 a hairband.

Speaker 2 Very exciting.

Speaker 3 Names. And then we'll just kind of move on to something else.
The white ones are cumulonimbus.

Speaker 1 Which is a cloud formation. Yes, they are.

Speaker 3 I think they're the coolest. It's like, fuck.
He's rocking some white goggle glasses with a red, white, and blue band.

Speaker 2 It's confidence.

Speaker 3 It's very cool. And then we have a noir pair, a black pair called Mama's Skillet, named after my mama's skillet.

Speaker 2 Okay, we're going to pin in Mama's Skillet.

Speaker 3 Yeah. These are tortuga.
You You gotta have a tortoise shell, man.

Speaker 1 So, what does the word tortuga? Where does it come from? It means

Speaker 1 black and brown pattern. Oh, okay.
It's not like

Speaker 1 a turtle. It's a turtle.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 In Spanish. Oh, in Spanish.
Yes.

Speaker 3 And then we have limoncello.

Speaker 1 Ooh, that's nice. Which is yellow.

Speaker 3 And then we have the color that you're wearing. Oh.
Which is guess what?

Speaker 1 Blue.

Speaker 1 Wow. Decided to go real conventional for just one.

Speaker 1 That's so good. Which is comical because if any color deserved an adjective before it, it would be blue.
There's so many kinds, but you're like, no, there's only one blue, and this is it.

Speaker 2 You're thinking differently.

Speaker 1 Oh, he's

Speaker 1 got some questions. Okay, here we go.
We're going to get serious now. Okay, let's get so serious.
So, yeah, you get it. I love you so much.
I have been wanting this to happen for very, very long.

Speaker 1 And I was working with Rob Cordry for a period, who I adore. And then I found out you guys are close and you would vacation together in Europe, which sounds exactly what I'd I'd imagine you do.

Speaker 3 Hey.

Speaker 3 Always.

Speaker 1 So elegant.

Speaker 1 And maybe I want to jump to one thing to then come back to where you're from, because I was watching an interview with you and you were discussing having been offered justified to be in the pilot.

Speaker 1 You were going to die in justified and that was going to be it. You read it and you turned it down twice for a very specific reason.
And I want you to tell me why because I really liked it.

Speaker 3 I'm a huge Elmore Leonard fan for one thing, but I felt that it was so one-dimensional And because I can afford not to do this anymore.

Speaker 1 Yeah, for much of your early career, all of us, we got to play what they offer us.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. I mean, if you're Italian and you're from New York, chances are you're going to shoot somebody.

Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 You're going to be eating some fucking pasta.

Speaker 1 You're going to eat some pasta. You're going to dig a hole in the back.
Absolutely. And you're going to smile while you're doing it.

Speaker 3 But we all look for boxes to kind of fit in when we're starting out. And it just so happened to be at that point in my life that I'd gotten out of a number of those boxes.

Speaker 3 And this was one box that I just felt like I can't perpetuate this stereotype and sell out my culture anymore.

Speaker 3 From an outsider's perspective, like a lot of different cultures in America, they're reducible to one impersonation.

Speaker 3 And it's like, okay, well, if I can speak like this, you know, and I come down here and like I'm from the South, what does that even fucking mean? I mean, the South represents a third of this country.

Speaker 3 Each region and each state and each part of every state is very unique. Like the state of New York.
The state of New York isn't just New Yorkers. I live in the state of New York now.

Speaker 1 Two dramatically different cultures, actually. You live in

Speaker 1 Manhattan and Hudson Valley. That's right.

Speaker 3 But it just felt like I was at a place in my life where I just was unwilling to do that.

Speaker 1 To participate in the perpetuation of this. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I think everybody, you know, at some point, whenever you can kind of step out, you don't need the money. Morally, you just don't think that it's right.

Speaker 3 And you don't want to feel shame whenever you're visiting those places that you're just another part of the problem. This is where the conversation ends.

Speaker 3 And I wanted it to be where the conversation began. And so on the third conversation we had after I had turned it down twice.
And I say that I'm not proud of it.

Speaker 3 There's no ego involved in that whatsoever because I'm such a huge fan of Tim Oliphants and Michael Denner, who was directing it and wrote a good bit of it.

Speaker 3 But Graham Yost, who wrote the pilot, on the third time, I said, okay, I'll do it. Two things.
I'm the smartest person in the room, always.

Speaker 3 After I say this very long speech in the pilot, it was kind of crazy, racist rant. That's right.
That you say this one line, which is, I know you don't believe half the things that you're saying.

Speaker 3 You just need an audience. I just needed a version of that line for him to see through that, which is true.

Speaker 1 It's crazy having watched it, not knowing that story, and how important that weird detail was, because it also built this rapport with you two, which makes it so much more compelling.

Speaker 1 You have a past, and that little line that you were wanting to not perpetuate ends up also being this other layer.

Speaker 3 Well, it also allows the audience to kind of come into the experience. No one has tolerance for intolerance, really.
I don't.

Speaker 3 It just gave the audience the opportunity to experience this person and really to go forward. I asked for those things, not with a six-year contract.
This was just the pilot and die.

Speaker 3 We'll do this thing and just give me that and then I can sleep better at night.

Speaker 1 And you know, it's so fucking incredible after they tested it. Every single person like, well, no, no, he can't die.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it just adds a third dimension to a person.

Speaker 1 We had a guest that so beautifully articulated this. You know, the author, Barbara Kingsolver, by chance? She wrote the Pulitzer Prize winning book last year, Demon Copperhead.
Oh, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 The most beautiful beautiful book. I read it.
My whole family's from Kentucky. She said in that book, she was trying to explain how it feels to be in the South and especially in Appalachia.

Speaker 1 She described it as, we're in the bathroom stall in high school. We hear the popular kids making fun of us.
We get these TV shows. We get these songs.
We can hear you.

Speaker 1 It's so fucking offensive and hurtful. Yeah.
And you don't even care. I just had a whole renewed compassion for one of the great stereotypes that kind of persists.

Speaker 3 In some ways, I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this, but it's permissible in urban culture. Certainly on both coasts.

Speaker 1 It's low-hanging fruit. It's always there.

Speaker 3 You can always go to it and you can always get a laugh from your constituents. And they're part of it.
They're also in the audience. It's hurtful.

Speaker 1 So you were born in Birmingham, Alabama, but you grew up in Georgia, where Monica grew up in Germany. I'm from Georgia.

Speaker 2 Whoa. I know you're talking about Kentucky, but I'm from Georgia.
A little peach.

Speaker 1 That's right. Little peach.

Speaker 2 ATL? Yeah, Duluth. We're in Georgia.

Speaker 3 We lived in a fucking trailer in Birmingham, Alabama. First year of my life.
My mom's sisters lived.

Speaker 1 I think there's like, I don't know, five or six people.

Speaker 3 My parents got divorced pretty early. What age? Three, maybe two and a half.
But my earliest memories are with my mom in Decatur, Georgia, which is right downtown.

Speaker 2 It's very cool now.

Speaker 3 There's so many great places in Atlanta now, like so many cities in America.

Speaker 3 I had this whole new generation is going to come in and give me some third wave coffee and fucking some great sourdough bread.

Speaker 1 What's coming next?

Speaker 3 Ooh, Mediterranean food. Fantastic.

Speaker 1 But Lithia, do you know Lithia?

Speaker 3 Lithia Springs. We moved out, which is Westside.
My mom and I lived in Decatur three years. One of my earliest memories, I couldn't have been more than four.
I have a lot of memories from that.

Speaker 3 house that we lived in, this duplex. But one is one of the scariest memories of my childhood, of my life, really.
My mom's bedroom was in the front. My bedroom was in the back.
She's a young woman.

Speaker 3 She was a beautiful woman. She had a super cool boyfriend, and I slept in my bed alone.

Speaker 1 You were an only child at that point.

Speaker 3 Only child. And I went to sleep.
My little twin bed was right up against the wall. My upper torso was next to the wall.
From my knees down, it was in front of a window.

Speaker 3 Just as I was about to fall asleep, there was a light in the backyard, and I had whatever the fucking house came with, these shades that were kind of pulled down, an opaque shade, so you could see through it.

Speaker 3 And just as I was falling asleep, I saw someone crawl in front of my window because it was a roof right outside. It was two stories.
I don't know if it was a man or a woman. I have no idea.

Speaker 1 I think we can assume it's a man.

Speaker 1 I'm betting on this.

Speaker 2 Or a woman escaping. It was a man.

Speaker 3 He was on his knees and he was just sitting there, like perfectly outlined in my window, his whole body. And I couldn't scream.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 And he had his hands on the window and he was trying to see if it would open. And then eventually he just went past the window.

Speaker 3 And as soon as he was out of sight, I got my voice back and I started screaming.

Speaker 1 Did mom's boyfriend run to the scene?

Speaker 3 I don't know if he was there that night. That's kind of the end of that memory.
I remember my mom coming in or something, but it was terrifying. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And then we moved out to Lithia Springs when I was five years old. We found an 1850s farmhouse, and it was two bedrooms.
You had to walk through my room to get to the bathroom.

Speaker 3 And it was fucking cold in the winter. I was like, well, I'm going to go to sleep with this glass of water on the edge of my bed.
And I know I'm going to wake up and it's going to be frozen.

Speaker 1 Yay!

Speaker 1 Look, there's no more water in my glass, mama. Get me out of here.
What the fuck is wrong with the last one?

Speaker 1 Were there stepdads in the mechs?

Speaker 3 I did not have a stepdad. My mom never got remarried, but she had some boyfriends, and I loved all of them.

Speaker 1 You did?

Speaker 3 Some of them were a little hard, and a couple of them were younger than they probably should have been.

Speaker 1 Good for her.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 We need a picture of your mom.

Speaker 3 My mom's so fucking cool.

Speaker 1 Yeah, who do you get your swagger from? Because I have been lucky enough to see photos of your dad.

Speaker 1 And Monica, I can't wait to describe his father to you, but you showed some pictures on Seth Meyers of him. He is a one-of-a-fuck.

Speaker 3 He texted me a photo yesterday. Dad, if you ever see this, I can't believe you made this fucking coffee mug.

Speaker 3 It was a picture of me in these glasses as part of the campaign. And he made himself a coffee mug.
He's a narcissist, my dad. Yeah, yeah.
Clinical.

Speaker 3 He knows it, don't you, Dad?

Speaker 1 He's listening to me. He literally sent me this thing when he said, congratulations.

Speaker 3 He loves me. And I love him.

Speaker 1 It has this logo fucking all over it.

Speaker 3 The bottom of it. And then at the top that's facing out where people would be seeing it

Speaker 3 is a picture of me in these glasses. And underneath it in big letters, there is no him without me.

Speaker 1 Oh, no, no. That's what it says on the mug.

Speaker 3 On the fucking mug. Yes.

Speaker 1 Perfect. I could almost guess that caption.
My father, and I wonder if you have this. As I got famous, he loved telling people.

Speaker 1 I wanted to take in how proud he was of me and he was deeply proud of me. But I couldn't trust that it wasn't maybe more about him getting attention.

Speaker 2 Of course, man. You're an extension of him.

Speaker 1 Which makes more sense now that I have kids. You're right.
There is a very tiny line between you. But can you relate to that?

Speaker 3 I had a lifetime of that. We're not the only people that have had this kind of experience.
My father was married six times, but one was annulled.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, we'll still count it.
I think we'll still count it.

Speaker 3 A shotgun kind of annulment. The running joke kind of in my household was inevitably everybody has a bumper sticker that says honk if you've ever been married to Sandy Goggins.

Speaker 1 Fucking who hasn't he married.

Speaker 3 But my mom never remarried. She had some wonderful men come through and then we had a cast of characters in my life.
It was kind of this way station for people.

Speaker 3 My mom was the most sane of her three sisters who were and are insane

Speaker 3 clinically, but it was really colorful and I was raised kind of by real steel magnolias.

Speaker 1 You get to meet characters, it sounds like.

Speaker 3 I don't get to meet them. They fucking lived with us.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they raised you.

Speaker 1 Upon reflection, though, are you grateful for it?

Speaker 3 Oh, I'm so grateful for it.

Speaker 3 Whenever you would meet someone, even someone who was relatively authentic, even someone who was just a farmer across the street, Kermit and his wife, everyone in my life was eccentric.

Speaker 3 I mean, except for the Hearst family. My neighbors, Holly and David, were my best friends.
And Ken and Carol were like my mom and dad. They actually fed me regularly.

Speaker 3 They had a bed that I could always sleep in. And they would actually take me to practice, but they would also pick me up.

Speaker 1 They were dependable.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they were about as good as Americans can get. They were just wonderful people.
But God damn, I'm glad that I wasn't raised totally by them. I just absolutely love lunatics.
Yes.

Speaker 3 I love crazy people, but just enough crazy. I don't see enough people seeking out those conversations or taking the time with people like that.
Am I wrong about that?

Speaker 2 You think people dismiss.

Speaker 3 I think that eccentricity, if the conversation can't be had in about three minutes, if you're only checking one of the 10 boxes required for me to have a conversation, I'm not fucking having it.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 3 I mean, because people are busy and there's a phone. Do you think that's true or no?

Speaker 2 Gosh, I think it's complicated because I also think because of social media.

Speaker 2 People also lean deeply into their eccentricity, almost in an inauthentic way.

Speaker 1 In a performative way.

Speaker 2 It's performative. So authenticity has gotten very complicated and public and confusing.

Speaker 3 And you are interfacing with people that have either real or faux eccentricities and you are engaging with them in that platform. I didn't even think about that.

Speaker 1 Well, also, you can get that itch scratch, which is you can go watch someone that's bat shit nuts on Instagram. Whereas when we were kids, Kristen will hear me say this all the time.

Speaker 1 He's like, we're at an airport and I just lock on to somebody and I'll say out loud, got to find out what this guy's up to. And I'll go check.

Speaker 1 People catch my eye all the time and I'm like dying to find out what's cracking.

Speaker 1 What's going on outside of this airport? What kind of kid were you in school?

Speaker 3 I was alone a lot as a kid, single mom, babysitters, houses. I felt like I spent most of my life waiting to be picked up.

Speaker 3 At times, I felt like an inconvenience, even though that wasn't their intention.

Speaker 3 I remember seeing the bridges of Madison County and Burbank whenever that movie came out in the early 90s, and then calling my mom from a payphone in the lobby, walking out, apologizing for being bored.

Speaker 1 Oh, but not just like, so sorry I held you back from doing some of these things.

Speaker 3 And she still had a fucking great life.

Speaker 1 It sounds like it's because I'm younger suitors.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but she was like, no, son, you are the gift. You are it.
But at the time, I didn't feel that. In school, I think I was popular, kind.
I think I could charm people. I always felt different.

Speaker 3 I always knew that I'm not going to be here forever.

Speaker 1 I had a lot of...

Speaker 3 friends, my senior superlative, even though I didn't win it, but I was the first runner-up for most friendliest. I thought it would be best dressed.

Speaker 3 They took that out that year because poor kids, they don't have the same opportunity.

Speaker 1 I'm poor, motherfucker. But I figured it out.
But I figured it out. I got a job.
I wear this rich. I got a $2 scarf with this $3 shirt.
You see this shit?

Speaker 1 Because I bought this shit.

Speaker 3 But I was a great student.

Speaker 1 Oh, no kidding.

Speaker 3 I had no structure in my life. I don't think I slept in the same bed for more than seven days straight until I was like 15.
So I had to generate my own structure. It helped me.

Speaker 3 It served me my entire life because, okay, well, I got to work harder than everybody in this world.

Speaker 1 Well, it makes you a self-starter because no one's going to start it for you.

Speaker 3 That's right. I remember writing a poem that was the class assignment.
And so I picked it about divorce. You know, I came to turn it in and she gave it back to me.
It was like an F. Whoa.

Speaker 3 I said, I'm so sorry. I think this is pretty good.
And she said, it's great, but you didn't write it.

Speaker 3 And I said, what?

Speaker 1 Oh, so it's the ultimate. Yeah.
Yeah. It's like, yes, I did.
I'm like, that guy is from my heart. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I just showed you my heart and you just shit on it. Yeah.
Called me a fraud.

Speaker 3 And then my mom kind of came to school and said, no, no, no, it was him. And it all worked out.

Speaker 1 I've never wanted to read a poem in my entire life until right now I'm tired of reading it do you know it do you know it by heart

Speaker 1 no I remember a couple raps I wrote in high school we'll get to that later okay so you went to southern Georgia University for a year and a half Georgia Southern Georgia Southern did you go to I went to Georgia you went to UGA I did go to Georgia was a great student you from Georgia I know I am I sure am we got in a big fight about it because I went to the Texas game with Dax in Austin well are you a big Texas no he's not I'm a big Austin fan Yeah, I'm a big Austin fan.

Speaker 3 It's a great city.

Speaker 2 Well, they were playing Georgia and I refused to.

Speaker 1 And we were the guests.

Speaker 2 We were guests of some Texas.

Speaker 1 McConaughey. Oh, yeah.
Fucking religion. We got to hook him.
No, we don't.

Speaker 3 Do you wear like a Georgia hat?

Speaker 2 I wore a Bulldog shirt

Speaker 2 and a red sweater.

Speaker 1 Were you on the field?

Speaker 2 No, we were in the box, but surrounded by a bunch of orange. And I was like, absolutely not.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And she was so mad that I wanted the longhorn swing. It put our friendship to the test.

Speaker 3 It really did.

Speaker 1 We barely navigated that one.

Speaker 3 We don't have to talk about it now, but I want to know the history of this friendship.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. It's an odd pairing.

Speaker 1 We're best friends. We fight non-stop.
We think about the world so differently, so often. It works.

Speaker 2 Big time. Circling back a little bit, I do think we are very volatile, and I think that's somewhat of a result of his upbringing.
and potentially mine.

Speaker 2 And we were talking about chaos and relationships. Do you seek that out? I think we subconsciously seek it out.

Speaker 3 You mean conflict with each other, or do you think in your own lives?

Speaker 2 Like, if I'm being honest, I think that's part of the draw. There's something always that could blow up.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's right. And part of the attraction to this.

Speaker 2 I think so.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I crave novelty.
I crave a challenge. I crave being engaged.

Speaker 1 And because she's so smart and has such a strong point of view, and it's so often different from mine, it's very ripe for very engaged, very heartfelt debate. And we love each other.

Speaker 1 So we would like to have the same opinion. So the stakes are high.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now that makes for a great show.
It's been going on for seven years.

Speaker 3 It's been going on a long time.

Speaker 1 We have to really navigate it quite often. But I think that's the best kind of relationship.
I agree with you. I could never be with a fan.
I have friends.

Speaker 1 I know people who are very successful and then they get a very beautiful person who's just along for the ride and they're a fan. I would be so bored out of my mind.
My wife is hard as a motherfucker.

Speaker 1 Yeah, super smart, super talented, very driven, very ambitious, gonna get her way. I need that.

Speaker 3 I have that in my life. My wife is more often than not the smartest person in any room, but I walk in for sure.
She's a fucking intellectual baller.

Speaker 3 She understands the world in a very nuanced, complex way and is able to walk with kings.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and you got to have your shit straight before you enter into a fray with her. Like, she makes you, I'm presuming, the very best version of yourself.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, I don't know, or the worst version, too.

Speaker 3 And the thing that I say often is, I'm Zen 99% of the time. And she says, well, it's the 1% where you should be fucking Zen, man.

Speaker 3 You know, it's the 1% when you're challenged to that place and that's your lesson. I said, or maybe it's fucking not my lesson.

Speaker 3 But that's kind of that thing. I mean, I think I'm cool.
I'm cool. I'm cool to, hey, man, fuck you.
I'm not cool. That level of volatility is present in my work.

Speaker 3 And maybe you feel that way in your work. And that is the same with my wife and all of my friends.
I look for that in other people.

Speaker 1 I need 10% crazy in the mix.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 And Monica's 26% crazy. And I'm 35% crazy.

Speaker 1 Well, I would go up a little bit on that. Is Kristen crazy?

Speaker 2 That's a great question. Less and less.

Speaker 1 Less and less and less. Yeah.
Both of us, by the way, have gotten way milder. It can exist so much easier.
It's 17 years. You're 19 years.

Speaker 3 20. I've been married for that long, but we met on a blind date 20 years ago, January 11th.

Speaker 1 The volume comes down on a lot of stuff.

Speaker 3 It has. And we've gone through a lot and like every relationship, ups and downs and peaks and valleys.
But there's this thing that has eluded us for so long and we see it coming.

Speaker 3 It's like, oh, I fucking know exactly how this is going to go down. And I don't want to, okay, let's step off this train right now.
There's an off-ramp right here, man. You could just turn around.

Speaker 3 Oh, she's not letting you leave. Oh, you're not letting her.

Speaker 1 Oh, oh, hey, you know what? Come in. Now we're doing

Speaker 3 fucking, I'm out, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I went out of here. And a little burst of euphoria comes where you go, oh, I'm going to burn the house down.
Yeah. There we go.
That's right. And it's a little bit intoxicating.

Speaker 3 It is intoxicating. But you know who in my family doesn't have any of that is our child.
He is so calm. and so wise and so measured and extremely passionate.
A deep, deep, deep thinker.

Speaker 1 What could be more fun? Yeah. Okay, here's the limb I wanted to go out on.
Okay, let's go out of it.

Speaker 1 But I was just curious, given the similar background, is it hard for you when someone's in a bad mood? Like my things with my wife are generally, and I have this with Monica too.

Speaker 1 I have this with everyone in my life. If someone's in a really bad mood, I have this unreasonable desire to fix that for them and to regulate them.
And if I can't do it, I'm very uncomfortable.

Speaker 3 Right, because you spent a lifetime doing that, regulating kind of other people's well, that was my guess.

Speaker 1 I'm wondering, single mom, it's like normally dad would be in charge of that. If mom's got an emotional issue.

Speaker 3 She never fit that box, right? She never fit that stereotype. Smoked a lot of weed, had a really good time.

Speaker 3 Very passionate woman, loved to have sex.

Speaker 1 Mine too. My mom's an admitted love addict.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 And started studying Hermanza Yogananda and Joel Goldsmith and the Urantia and the I am and went on this spiritual journey.

Speaker 3 Started when I was about 10 or 11 years old and had me reading all of those texts so much so that I just kind of missed out on the classics because I felt like it was a waste of time.

Speaker 3 If you weren't doing something that was expanding kind of your consciousness, then why would you do it? I didn't realize until I was in a car with some. friends that I had made in L.A.

Speaker 3 when I first moved out here, coming back from San Diego and hearing these people talk about Hemingway and Somerset Mom and Faulkner. And, you know, they had the opportunity to be in school.

Speaker 3 They had a college education. And hearing them cross-reference these authors and how it was applicable to cinema or a song that they were listening to.

Speaker 3 And I just was in the back seat, wasn't saying anything. I was just listening to all of this.
And I just thought, I want that kind of in my life.

Speaker 3 To circle back to what you said, I had to please a lot of people. I had to please my father.
I wasn't around him that much, but when I was, I desperately had to do that. That's not our problem.

Speaker 3 Early in my life, my problem was profound insecurity based on poverty and not having those things to the point where in high school or middle school, girlfriend's parents were coming to pick me up and I would give them an address that wasn't my address.

Speaker 3 And right before they were supposed to get me, I say, okay, mom, I got to go. My mom had no structure, no boundaries,

Speaker 3 no boundaries whatsoever. My mom was like, I trust you.

Speaker 3 And so I would just slip out of the house and I would go to Ken and Carol's house with the nicer home and just hide in the ditch or out by their bushes.

Speaker 3 And I would see the headlights kind of pull in and I would just run out in the driveway.

Speaker 1 And it's like, okay.

Speaker 3 And then the lights would come on. And so is that your, I was like, oh, they're fine.

Speaker 1 Bye, mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

Speaker 1 If you dare.

Speaker 1 This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. The website for Armchair Expert.
I was too afraid to try.

Speaker 1 I didn't want to build it. I didn't think I had the skill set.

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You know what, Monica?

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Speaker 2 Yes. I was literally just thinking about how much I love mine.
I think I've worn them every night since we got them.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. I barely was able to get out of mine to come in today.
So I've always been that guy who just sleeps in whatever, random t-shirt, you know, old shorts.

Speaker 1 These skims jammies, first of all, they're in the pattern I love. They're in the checkered red and black.
Yes. And then the fabric is just snuggling me all night long.

Speaker 2 It's such a good product. And also for the women's ones, the one I have is so cute.
I like after my shower, my routine, to get into a cute pair of pajamas.

Speaker 2 And I feel like like my sleep is improved when I'm wearing cutes.

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Speaker 2 You eventize it. That's right.

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Speaker 1 Poverty is humiliating when you're young like that.

Speaker 3 You just don't fit in. We never filled up our gas tank ever.
I never remember my mom or an aunt or one of these crazy people I was with.

Speaker 3 No one had the money to put more than like three to five bucks in your gas tank. And so I had a lot of that.
It's like a chip on your shoulder, but it's not.

Speaker 3 And then you allow for judging until it gets to a certain point. And then you react.
to that judging. It's like, well, wait a minute, I'm just as good as you.

Speaker 3 I had a lot of that shit early on, especially in relationships. I was left a lot, like a lot of people, abandonment issues, and just thinking everyone leaves, everyone's going to leave.

Speaker 3 So please don't love me or love me and please don't let me go. Yeah.
I think that's a journey for a lot of people in my own journey, in my own spiritual walk, which is a part of this.

Speaker 3 whole experience of the white lotus, falling in love with yourself. God damn, if you can get to that point where you're okay with you, even though once you find it, it will very quickly disappear.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's transient.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. And once you have that realization and once you have a degree of self-love, at least this is what my experience was.
That also came with real boundaries.

Speaker 3 I've gotten better about this is no man's land right now. We're okay, but this is not okay with me.
And I'm not poor anymore, but I don't think that ever fully leaves you.

Speaker 1 I'd wrestle a lot with, I hated rich people. If there were a bad guy in the world, it was rich people because I felt less than around them.
I didn't like how I felt. It was none of their fault.

Speaker 1 I now know that. But, you know, I had this chip on my shoulder.
And then trying to to come to terms with the reality of, oh, I'm one of those people. That's a little discombobulating.

Speaker 3 And there's shame around that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
You feel survivor's guilt. It's complicated.

Speaker 3 The thing that I had, and something you kind of brought up earlier and experiencing it in the back of this car coming up from San Diego, my envy wasn't around the acquisition of things, even though I just wish we had some fucking heat.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Like, like these are just bare minimals.

Speaker 1 The water would stay liquid.

Speaker 3 Yes. I wish we had some some yogurt.

Speaker 1 I wish I didn't have to cut off half of this block of cheese to get to the good cheese.

Speaker 3 That's exactly right. But it was time to think.

Speaker 3 I was jealous and envious of these people went to college and they were fucking in college, even though they worked or whatever, but they had an opportunity to just sit and learn or read and then go talk about things that they had just learned.

Speaker 3 I never had the space to do that. I would have been good at it.
I left school after a year and a half.

Speaker 2 We do forget and we take for granted that going to school and being able to be there and think critically is a privilege.

Speaker 3 It is a privilege.

Speaker 2 Yeah. We just do it.
We think we have to do it. We go.
We try to get through it and it should be rethought of.

Speaker 3 Just like a daily reminder of this is a privilege. It's not a right.
And what do you do with the time that you have at the microphone? What is it that you want to say?

Speaker 3 While I didn't have that in college, I have been able to, even without money, give myself those opportunities through travel and being alone, giving myself permission to be on the road for a very long period of time, understanding culture.

Speaker 3 I've talked about this in other interviews, so this isn't revelatory. But in addition to that, I feel that way about work.

Speaker 3 I feel that way about the time I am now afforded to give myself to live in my imagination in preparation to start a job and to stay in that. world over the course of telling that story.

Speaker 3 So I feel like I have that now.

Speaker 3 Like that's my education and that's time to ask those existential questions or listen to that music this person person would listen to or watch those movies that are applicable to this experience.

Speaker 1 You can indulge your imagination. Yeah, that's right.
You have time and space to fucking indulge this part of your brain. Yeah.
It's so special.

Speaker 3 And I don't take that for granted.

Speaker 1 I'm with you, yeah. I'm never interested in why someone wanted to become an actor, but with you, I am.
How do we go from that tiny town in a year and a half in college?

Speaker 1 When do you go, oh, I'm going to be a performer?

Speaker 3 I feel like I was always a performer. I was raised around some very performative people, interesting, funny people.
They were great storytellers.

Speaker 1 Yeah, if you're going to take up time at the dinner table, it better fucking land. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And even if you couldn't, because there were five stories going at once, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 But more often than not, people would pass the baton in my household and it wasn't a lot of talking over each other. It was depending on the level of inebriation,

Speaker 3 how fucking short or how long the story is. These were very eccentric people.
When it was my turn to talk, you know, it was like little walt. It was the great love of the women and my family.

Speaker 3 I knew that that, again, was a privilege and not a right to be given the microphone around this group of really great storytellers. And I would tell my storytelling ass off.

Speaker 3 I think that was always kind of a part of it, but I really kind of stumbled into it.

Speaker 1 Well, when you moved to L.A., did you move here specifically to try to act?

Speaker 3 I did. I wanted a great experience.
I got an American Express in college my freshman year.

Speaker 1 As soon as I got there, God damn, I got mail. Who knows I'm going to school here? How do you guys know? It's happening.

Speaker 1 I got a mailbox.

Speaker 3 And it was four or five pieces of mail. And the first thing that I opened was an offer to join American Express.

Speaker 3 And with this offer in 1989, were two round-trip tickets for $99 east of the Mississippi or $199 west of the Mississippi.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. Plane tickets were like $1,000 from Atlanta to fucking Los Angeles in 1989.
I mean, they were not cheap. And I just saw it and I thought, this experience is over.

Speaker 3 I'm going to do my year in the school. I'm never going to spend a dollar on this card.
I'll just have it. And then I'm going to use use both of these vouchers.

Speaker 3 And it's exactly what I did a year later.

Speaker 2 And who went with you?

Speaker 3 Nobody. Oh.
I went on my own.

Speaker 1 Because you had two vouchers.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Oh, because I had two.
Yeah, I didn't. No, no, no.
I used both of them. My dad came with me when I drove across country because he wanted to get his eyes on the big city.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Big city. I wish you could have seen this photo.
His dad is adorned head to toe in black leather, turquoise on every single finger. He has photos of himself.

Speaker 1 People do ask him for photos everywhere he goes. He's a very interesting person.
He's visiting Walton in New York and people are asking for photos. And he's, oh, well, I have one signed.

Speaker 1 He has signed photos of himself. He has signed photos of Walton that he has signed.

Speaker 2 Oh, my. You need to make a mug with his picture of that.
And it needs to say, there's no this without me.

Speaker 1 Because that's all so true.

Speaker 1 And that's the end of the interview.

Speaker 1 Tips and chat. Yeah.
The ride really, so I'm going to blow through a couple because I want to get to three things. Okay.
The shield is the first from the outside.

Speaker 1 Seems like you're now in the big leagues. You have a steady paycheck.
You're one of the seasoned regulars.

Speaker 3 Is that the big? Yeah, I think so. I moved here when I was 19.
I had $300 in my pocket and I lived the way that I lived and worked how I worked.

Speaker 3 And then what gave me permission not to feel like I needed to work anymore, even though I did for a little while afterwards, was The Apostle with Robert Duvall. Oh.
And that was the, wow. Okay.

Speaker 3 That's my hero. And so that was really, even though I was working, I think I made $21,000 over three months for the next karate kid.
For me, that was a lot of money.

Speaker 1 Well, clearly, yeah, from 19 to 30, you are when you get on the shield.

Speaker 3 29, yeah.

Speaker 1 29. Yeah, yeah.
You make it work. You're on Beverly Hills 90210.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I did a fair amount of films, but then I thought like Shanghai Noon was going to be the thing. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 I had a pretty big role in Born Identity that ultimately they decided to go with Gabriel Mann instead. And they just offered me another thing.
People didn't know what the fuck to do with me.

Speaker 3 No one was paying paying attention. And I had some extraordinary experiences on location over that first 10 years.

Speaker 3 And then the SHIELD happened, yeah, when I was 29, and nobody knew that it was going to be what it became. 86 episodes or something? 86, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, so I think this is so fascinating. You had auditioned for Eastbound and Down, and you didn't get it.
No. And the feedback was.

Speaker 3 David Gordon Green, who's a friend of mine from the Independent Film Circuit, I just called and said, you know, Danny absolutely loves you, but just it might be a little too dangerous for what we're doing.

Speaker 3 It's a little too chaotic, not even chaotic, it's just a little scary. I said to Danny, look, man, I think you need somebody to go toe-to-toe with you.

Speaker 3 And then we have some friends in common. Leslie Bibb, actually, had a New Year's Eve party, and Danny and David were there.
And I was there. She's one of my best friends with Sam.

Speaker 3 Then that was kind of the beginning of a conversation.

Speaker 1 I remember watching an interview with Todd Phillips, and I thought he said the coolest thing. He said, you know, for me,

Speaker 1 comedy that is good has to be very dangerous. Oh, it's

Speaker 1 not comedy to me. And if you like, look at his work, you're like, oh, yeah, it's kind of high stakes.
Everything's a little scary. You look at, you know, the hangover or any of these, they go wild.

Speaker 1 When they're going to jump a van, they're going to jump a fucking van. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. They're real stakes.

Speaker 1 So then you get to come in and do vice principles.

Speaker 3 They offered it. I was doing the Hateful 8.
We were in Colorado. And I read it.
And he talked about it at this party. And I read it and thought, okay, this I know what to do with.

Speaker 3 And so I just kind of did that. And it was three lines into into it where I think he was like, okay.

Speaker 1 You're outrageously good in that. I couldn't believe the story of Hateful Eight.

Speaker 1 And if you would just indulge me and Monica, I think the audition for Hateful Eight is one of my favorite audition stories I've heard.

Speaker 3 If it's the story that I think you're talking about, that was for Django.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, but you get hateful.
Which led to the Hateful Eight. I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's easy.
I can't believe you know what you fucking know.

Speaker 1 Honestly. But it starts with a call call to Rodriguez.

Speaker 3 I get this script like everybody else in town, and I read it on the plane to New York and staying with a friend. And it's one of the best things I've ever read in my life.

Speaker 3 He's only made nine, you know? So it's the repeat cast. It's the golden ticket.
It's a very small group of people. I just feel that way about Mike White and the White Lotus.

Speaker 3 There are a number of filmmakers that have that stable of actors. And if you can kind of get in that, Christopher Guest, I mean, unbelievable.
But Quentin is probably by far the most in my book.

Speaker 3 But I read it and it's like, I don't have to get this. I just want to fucking read these words in front of this man.

Speaker 3 And so I called Robert Rodriguez, who's a friend of mine, and they're obviously really good friends. And I said, man, I've never asked you for anything.

Speaker 3 Could you please text Quentin for me and just say that I have this guy I would like to read. 10 minutes later, he texted back the text from Quentin, which was, I love Goggins.
I love his work.

Speaker 3 You know, and it's like, fuck. Okay.
Well, then that's it.

Speaker 1 You just print it out and frame it. Unbelievable.
That's enough. It's more than I wanted.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I could ever expect.

Speaker 3 It's always nice to live your your life as if you should be surprised if anyone has seen any fucking thing that you've done.

Speaker 1 But to be seen by a hero just feels really crazy.

Speaker 2 And then liked. Yeah, that's not a good thing.

Speaker 1 Tough to see.

Speaker 2 Liked and appreciated.

Speaker 3 And then it just happened to coincide with a really good friend of Quentin's was one of my wife's dear friends.

Speaker 3 And she called and she said, I just read the script and you got to be in this movie, man. You're in.
You're one of these guys. Yeah.
And she said, let's have a dinner with Quentin.

Speaker 3 I'm the guy that's like, no, no, no, I don't want want to do that i don't ask anyone

Speaker 1 i'm not that gross

Speaker 3 guy had this dinner talk about everything but the script until the very end and i said i think this is what you're saying and how i felt a thousand people have probably said he said well i want you to come in and just pick a few roles and so i did started kind of reading them and there it was and he was like that's great man i'll be speaking to you and i said well i'm not leaving

Speaker 3 i said well i didn't come here just to read these three roles i don't give a fuck if i get this job man i I just want to read your words in front of you. I want to read all of these roles.

Speaker 1 Wow. I want to read Leo.
I want to read Sam. I read Kurt Russell.

Speaker 3 It's like, I just want to read this shit.

Speaker 1 He's like, really?

Speaker 3 And he said, okay, let's do it. And then he read everyone else in the scenes.

Speaker 2 And you do the whole movie, basically.

Speaker 3 We worked for like an hour, hour and a half. We did a lot.

Speaker 1 How fucking big seminal scenes.

Speaker 3 Just the unadulterated enthusiasm and love for what he puts out in the world and his words. And at the end of it, it was like, fucking really good to see you, man.
Can't wait for the next time.

Speaker 1 This will cross my mind on my deathbed. Thank you.
Thank you, man. Oh, how cool.

Speaker 3 And then, yeah, you get the call. A couple of months went by.
It's like, okay, buddy. Come down to New Orleans and play with us.

Speaker 2 What if you're like, I can't. I don't want it.
I just came to just do that one thing. I don't really want to be in the movie.

Speaker 1 It was a camp top. What happened?

Speaker 3 But thanks. I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 I imagine you deal with this. The characters are so fucking different.
I may have seen vice principles, but if I don't follow show business, I don't realize that's the guy from Hateful 8.

Speaker 1 They're so different. And if if I fell in love with Uncle Baby Billy, I'm not putting that together with the shield.

Speaker 1 It's almost probably a bit of an Achilles, which is, I think you deserve to be the biggest star in the world, but I think the work is so unique and different.

Speaker 1 I don't know if people are connecting the dots because now I'm a hyper fan and I didn't even think, oh, right, I got to go and watch. I went and watched Justified.

Speaker 1 I had never seen it, but I'm like, oh, I'll go up for Goggins. God damn, he's great in that again.
But I watched Hateful 8 a couple months ago in a sea of the most talented people.

Speaker 1 That's the performance in the movie. It's incredible.

Speaker 1 I can't believe you went from a smaller role in Django and then got called to the big leagues and did what you did in that movie is fucking nuts, dude. Thank you, man.
Oh my God. It's so impressive.

Speaker 1 I'm so happy for you that you got to go into Tarantino's world and have him trust you with that much.

Speaker 1 And then to fucking score touchdown after touchdown.

Speaker 3 Well, look, maybe you feel this way. A lot of people in this business and outside of this business listen to your podcast.

Speaker 3 And I think for so many of us kind of coming up, I mean, we're from a different generation, but the barriers to entry, the gatekeepers to this experience, it's like every day, you're not even trying to fucking get to base camp one on Mount Everest.

Speaker 3 You're just trying to get up that Nepal

Speaker 1 to the airport hill that you're going to fall.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's right. You're just trying to get a flight to the airport, Nepal.
At that point, it's as far as you could have gone if you feel like I do about Tarantino. It's exactly how I feel.

Speaker 3 But whenever you see someone that's been around for a long time, like Rockwell or Kruda, I mean, even Garrett Dillahunt, all of these fucking people that have been around for a really long time, and we've been around for a long time, and you just see consistently good work over a long time.

Speaker 3 And it's like, oh, wow. I mean, Pedro Pascal has been doing great work for such a long time.
And it's like, wow, okay, there's one for the good guys.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 3 There is no limit on their staying power.

Speaker 1 They're inoculated by talent.

Speaker 3 And wisdom and choices. And so the guys I'm also a fan of, I won't name any names, but we know them.

Speaker 3 The people that if you were an envious person, which I'm really not except other people's careers, I really don't look in other lanes.

Speaker 3 But the people in my 20s for a moment was like, fuck, I wish I could, you know, but I wouldn't trade my walk for those three years. And I think you probably wouldn't either.

Speaker 3 I've been walking the road that I've been walking for a very long time.

Speaker 1 I would argue it's preferred. I agree.
When you're young, if you come out and you drop right into the World Series, it's hard to appreciate. It's hard to conceptualize.
It's hard to integrate.

Speaker 1 And it's It's hard to stay. Yeah.
It's hard to stay. And to kind of just keep walking in the back door.
And then you leave and you're like, who was that guy? That was that.

Speaker 1 You know, it's so preferred for your life story, your own narrative self. It's such the way to do it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 3 You don't remember this, but very first time I met you, it was nothing more of like a hey, but it was really just me across the room silently thinking like, fuck you, fuck this fucking guy.

Speaker 1 Why? What is the true story?

Speaker 3 Because it was for an audition and it was just the two of us in this room. And I walked in and I looked at you and you were sitting behind this desk and it was like a room with chairs.

Speaker 3 He had us kind of waiting in. Maybe it was like a second callback or something.
I don't know. But I walked in and was like, oh, this fucking guy.
I just felt like it ain't my day.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 I don't know this. Well, it was

Speaker 3 no employee of the month.

Speaker 1 Oh, oh my God.

Speaker 3 With Dane.

Speaker 1 Dane.

Speaker 3 And Dane came in. I don't know if you knew him.
I don't remember, but there was some some interaction that it was just like this easy. Oh, these guys.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 that is so funny. It's impossible to believe this story.

Speaker 3 I don't remember where it was, but I remember the room and I remember where you were sitting. No way.
Yeah. And then seeing the movie kind of when it came out, I was like, you know what?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was his.

Speaker 1 For sure.

Speaker 2 That's an ego boost for you.

Speaker 1 Should be. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And yeah, if I were you, I would hate me.

Speaker 1 No. Yes.
I'm like, what this motherfucker was on pipeline. I just felt like

Speaker 3 you kind of walk in one and I was like, oh, well, you know what? I'm still going to have fun.

Speaker 1 And I did. I want to see the version of the movie with you.

Speaker 3 I don't know, man.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. That's crazy.
That just blew my mind. Okay.
Last thing before White Lotus is, of course, Righteous Gemstones. Uncle Baby Billy.
Yeah. Again, I see all your shit out of order.

Speaker 1 So I first saw Righteous and I was like, who the fuck is this guy putting Uncle Baby Billy? And Chris and I are just obsessed with the show.

Speaker 1 I'm writing emails to Danny, who I barely know, but I have to tell him after every episode.

Speaker 1 The pilot of that, I'm like, did Scorsese fucking direct this pilot? This is a comedy. Look at these shots.
Yeah. We fall so in love with you.
Well, he was in vice principals. We learned.
We go back.

Speaker 1 I watch vice principles just because I'm now on Mike Walton Goggins train. And I'm like, oh my God, and he's this and this.
I don't really have a question.

Speaker 3 We just finished the fourth season.

Speaker 1 It's really good.

Speaker 3 I can't tell you anything that it's about, but the first episode of season four. And I'm going to go on record of saying this, as a piece of writing.

Speaker 3 If I had read that in The Atlantic, I think the motherfucker would be nominated for a Pulitzer. Wow.
You know, really, what he's saying at this stage of his exploration in that world.

Speaker 3 And everybody obviously has a great arc and a great story. But Baby Billy will have the summer 2025 fucking hit.
I'm going to tell you right now. Whatever you're wearing right now,

Speaker 3 come June or whatever, when you're a bathing bathing suit, you will be singing this fucking song. I promise.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. It's good, y'all.

Speaker 3 I can't believe it. And it says a lot about a lot.
It's cool.

Speaker 1 I guess my one question about vice principals and righteous is if you had to guess at a percentage,

Speaker 1 what percentage is you guys riffing and what percentage is on the page? It feels impossibly organic.

Speaker 3 98% is on the page.

Speaker 2 No shit. No shit.
That's so brilliant.

Speaker 1 That's some writing.

Speaker 3 Edie Patterson. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 She can let her rip.

Speaker 3 Do fucking anything. Yeah, yeah.
Adam can fucking do that. Michaela Watkins can do that.
Cordry. That's not my thing, but I understand where the story is and I understand.

Speaker 3 Okay, these are five or six tangents that I can go down. Turn yourself over to that and see kind of where that takes you.

Speaker 3 But he realized that about me very early on, that it's the words on the page that is liberating to me.

Speaker 1 Right, right, right, right.

Speaker 3 And then we carried that into Righteous Gemstones. I think I'll work with him for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1 If there was a career to envy, it'd be yours because you're in the Tarantino stuff. But I would say of the television shows, my favorite comedy is definitely Righteous Gemstones.

Speaker 1 I think my favorite big, huge action thing is Fallout. I love that show.
Thanks, man. And then my very favorite, both of ours, kind of social commentary, character-y deliciousness is White Lotus.

Speaker 1 You're in the three shows that are my favorite. The two previous seasons have been so good.
I think we all had so much anxiety when season two two came around because I'm like, how on earth?

Speaker 1 That hotel manager in season one, like, who's going to pick up that slack?

Speaker 2 And then they do deliver

Speaker 1 his social commentary and what he's able to tackle, which I feel like you're not allowed to, and he does perfectly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Just the notion last season, you had these two couples and these two are cheat, they're shitty, and this is the good one.

Speaker 1 And then as you're playing with it, you're like, well, I'm not sure which one I'd rather be a part of. That's right.
Oh, here's the perfect guy who says all the right things.

Speaker 1 Why isn't she horny for him? We got to deal with that. That's a real thing.
It's so brave and awesome.

Speaker 3 It is. And no one writes an existential crisis the way that he does.

Speaker 3 Wealth gives him permission, I think, to parody these people and to make them real simultaneously because these situations do happen to people outside of this very specific economic kind of section of society that he explores.

Speaker 3 This is his words, not mine. If first season was about money, the second season was about sex.
This season is about religion. It was everything that I had hoped it would be.

Speaker 3 And there are so many things that happened over the course of this experience that I'm not at liberty to really talk about. Tough project to promote actually.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it is with a lot of projects, but that one in particular, I think they do actually kill you. Right.

Speaker 1 There's a body floating somewhere.

Speaker 3 But I felt like I had my own apocalypse now, that I was Willard in a boat going upstream to meet Captain Kurtz, which was also me.

Speaker 1 Because of the real life or the story?

Speaker 3 Because of the story that I was telling.

Speaker 3 Does it help that you're in Thailand for six months living at the actual hotel you're working at yeah living at the hotel and sometimes the hotel was completely bought out so it was just us and then other times you know they weren't able to do that yeah so you're literally checking in as an actor next to guests that are actually there on vacation you're like peeking at the hotel pool going like oh wow that's that character yeah it's a weird fourth wall being broken yeah but i've seen two episodes and it's really fucking good oh i can't imagine and it's similar but it's different And I can say that my journey in this world, it's something that hasn't been seen or explored by Mike in other seasons.

Speaker 3 But everyone just kills it.

Speaker 1 Is it hard being there, though, for six months?

Speaker 3 Oh, fuck yeah, man. I mean, I've been home 11 days this year.
In success, it becomes harder, you know, and that's the thing I don't think people realize.

Speaker 1 Because you're having to turn down now really great opportunities.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, you're just away from home for a long time. It's lonely.
Yeah. I don't think people anticipate that.
It's like, oh my God, I'm getting all of these opportunities. And it's incredible.

Speaker 3 But at the end of the day, you go back to a house or your hotel room and you're alone, which I'm good at. And if I'm having a problem with it, I know other people are.

Speaker 3 Everyone went through their own crisis over the course of this experience.

Speaker 2 Which is maybe helpful for the project.

Speaker 3 It's a story that can induce that experience. Exactly.
Certainly for me, the way that I approached this. way of storytelling.
It was a fucking incredible experience. It had everything in it.

Speaker 3 Soup to nuts. And I can't wait for you to see it.
And I can't wait to hear what you think about when you do see it.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 Maybe we'll come back on at the end of this thing.

Speaker 1 When you get the call to join that cast.

Speaker 3 It was interesting because they were doing season two and I didn't know Mike, but we had friends in common, like we all do at this point.

Speaker 3 And I remember my agent saying, well, you should write a letter to Mike. It's like, no, man, I ain't that guy.

Speaker 3 I ain't doing that. They didn't tell me.
that conversations were even happening or that it was getting close. And then it was out here.
We were doing early press for fallout.

Speaker 3 And I went out to dinner with my agents, which I hadn't seen in a while. And they said, listen, congratulations.
I said, for what? And then they said, Mike wants you to do White Lotus Season 3.

Speaker 3 And I just started fucking bawling, started shaking at the table. Really? Because I felt like it's a world I could help him tell his story.

Speaker 1 Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 You really were.

Speaker 3 I suppose I would have felt that way if any other. show or movie you're excited about or filmmaker, but it's when you understand like Quentin, I felt like I know how to tell his story.

Speaker 3 I felt that way with Mike and a few of the filmmakers that I've gotten an opportunity to work with over the course of my career. This is one of them that I walked outside and called my wife.

Speaker 2 That's amazing.

Speaker 1 My last question to land the plane is, I also follow you on Instagram. I also know Cordry goes with you to like Greece or Italy.
You guys will do a proper summer in another country.

Speaker 1 It seems like you're putting as much effort into your actual life being as artistic as your work life.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 And I'd imagine some people might think that just happens, but I imagine you got to actually approach your life just like you do a role. Wow.

Speaker 3 Never had anyone say that. Yeah, I think that it's with intention.
And so this happens to be a very long stretch.

Speaker 3 We sold our home in Los Angeles and we moved across the country and we bid off maybe a little bit more than we could shoot.

Speaker 3 And it's like, okay, I got to go to work, even though I've never really done anything just for the money or that I'm not proud of or that I didn't want to do.

Speaker 3 But I got offered a movie right when the strikes were being talked about. And I had this trip planned and they said, we'll offer you this amount of money.
And I said, thank you, but no, thank you.

Speaker 3 And they said, okay, well, what about this amount of money? And I said, thank you, but no, thank you. They said, what would it take? I said, there is no amount of money.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 And your listeners or other actors may say, fuck that guy. You know what? I hadn't seen my kid in a long time.
And I had seen my friends.

Speaker 3 And that fucking time with my kid, it means more to me than anything. We're going to do that again this year with intention, whatever you can afford.

Speaker 3 My mom did it in Panama City Beach, Florida in a fucking tent. That is time.
And it's far too precious at this stage of the game. And it is something that you can never get back.

Speaker 3 And I have shame and remorse and regret about the time that I have been away. Like anyone does with their children.
It's with intention. And we're going to live the fuck out of life.

Speaker 3 Strap yourself in.

Speaker 1 Strap yourself in. Buckle the fuck up.
Let's all end on this. Strap in.
Let's strap in.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much, GoDaddy Arrow.

Speaker 1 All right, you got a Super Bowl commercial. Let's just ask that.
Hey, man,

Speaker 3 this is going to come out after.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 Go back and watch it on YouTube. Yeah, Oggin's goggles.

Speaker 1 Super Bowl commercial. Well-deserved.
Go Daddy Arrow. And hopefully people will be watching the commercial.
God, you look great. He looks so good.
Everyone looks so cheap.

Speaker 3 You know what? If you can imagine every day just feeling like apre ski.

Speaker 1 I love it.

Speaker 2 I'm going to wear them out.

Speaker 1 What I'm thinking, Monica, is our long-standing debate about whether or not I could fly an airplane if the pilot went down. Sure.
You with those goggles on? You think I'm going to go on?

Speaker 1 I'm not sure who should be flying the airplane, you or me?

Speaker 2 That is quite the compliment.

Speaker 3 You look like a professional in any field with those guys.

Speaker 3 Hey, you know, what an honor, man.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm so glad to find you.

Speaker 2 Yeah. We've been trying to get you in for years.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 3 You're so generous of yourselves and so giving of your time and such great listeners. And thank you.

Speaker 1 What a pleasure, man. Just loving you from afar.
So the fact that we're sitting together is such a blast for me. I adore you, Walton.
This has been my blast. Thank you.

Speaker 3 What a joy. What a joy.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert,

Speaker 1 if you dare.

Speaker 1 We are supported by Audible. You know, I spend a lot of time listening.
It's literally my job. But when I'm not recording the show, I'm constantly consuming audio content.

Speaker 1 And honestly, I can get pretty overwhelmed by all the choices out there. That's why I love when Audible drops their best of the year collection.

Speaker 1 Audible's most anticipated collection, the best of 2025, is here. And let me tell you, these editors know what they're doing.

Speaker 1 They've spent countless hours listening, having heated debates, probably way more heated than Monica and I get, although that's hard to imagine. And they have handpicked this year's must-listens.

Speaker 1 What I really appreciate is that they don't just go for the obvious picks. They found hidden gems alongside the buzziest new releases.

Speaker 1 Whether you're into true crime like Monica, historical biographies like me, or something completely different, this collection has your back.

Speaker 1 I've already started diving into their selection, and honestly, it's like having a really smart friend curate your entire listening experience. Want to finish the year with a sure thing?

Speaker 1 Check out Audible's best of 2025 and discover why there's more to imagine when you listen. Listen now.
Go to audible.com/slash best of the year.

Speaker 1 We are supported by T-Mobile 5G home internet. Like everyone, home internet is our life and there's nothing worse than when it slows down.

Speaker 2 Oh, I know, especially when you're doing something important like editing this show.

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Speaker 2 I want those five hours back.

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Speaker 2 Anyone can do it, even me.

Speaker 1 Hey, we were first in on T-Mobile's home internet. We were using it up in the attic.
Yeah. If you recall.

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Speaker 1 This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. You know what? I've been feeling it lately.
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Speaker 2 I live off of Liquid IV because I notoriously don't drink enough water. And so I have to use it.
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Speaker 1 He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. They got my huck is here.
He's got to let him have the facts.

Speaker 2 Oh, look at our trophy.

Speaker 1 Look at our trophy.

Speaker 1 That's a cool trophy.

Speaker 2 Very space age.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's meant to be hung. Okay.
It has this at the bottom. I guess it looks like a quotation above someone's head.
It does. I'm holding up a square armchair expert with Axe Shepard

Speaker 1 Spotify 500 million streams plaque. We were awarded gold status, I was told.
Gold status. I need to start this fact check by saying my most deepest thank you.

Speaker 1 I've never been more grateful than last night. I was asked to be one of Bill's 10 or 11 stops on his book tour.

Speaker 2 Yeah, awesome.

Speaker 1 And it was at a live event, the

Speaker 3 Carmere, I don't know, some beautiful theater.

Speaker 1 Where?

Speaker 2 In San Francisco. Oh, nice.
Yes. Sorry if you already said that.

Speaker 1 No, I don't think I did. Okay.
For the listener, I didn't say that.

Speaker 1 Okay. It's not our show, right? Yeah.
It's not handheld mics.

Speaker 1 I can't go out

Speaker 1 ahead of time and warm everything up and then bring Bill out. There's like a whole thing, you know, it's their show.
Right.

Speaker 1 And there'll be a video and another woman introduced us for a while and then we sit down. I'm in the wrong side.
Suffice to say, it just wasn't like one of our shows.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 1 So I guess they gave me

Speaker 1 about a ton. I'm not going to exaggerate.
Maybe like 20% nerves.

Speaker 2 Of course. It's different.

Speaker 1 And it's like, I don't know if it's all people there to see Bill Gates and they're learning who I am and they don't understand I'm I'm going to have a sense of humor, whatever. All this to say,

Speaker 1 soon as we sat down, I said, Are there any arm chairs here?

Speaker 1 And Monty,

Speaker 1 I loved it. The whole place was armchairs.

Speaker 1 And I immediately felt so comfortable

Speaker 1 and confident and relaxed.

Speaker 2 That's awesome.

Speaker 1 And I was so grateful. I couldn't believe how grateful I was.
I was like, fucking armchairs

Speaker 1 show up.

Speaker 2 They really do show up.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And you know, I had my whole family.

Speaker 2 Yes. Your original family.
The OF.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 2 Your sister, your brother, and your mom.

Speaker 1 That's right. The original crew.
Yeah. The original four.
Yeah. The fab four.

Speaker 2 Was that lovely?

Speaker 1 It was lovely. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And they got to meet Bill for a while. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 my brother has been obsessed with. Bill since he was a kid.
Really? Oh, yeah. Because my brother is very into computers.
I didn't know that. Yes.

Speaker 2 Oh, how special.

Speaker 1 Obsessed with Bill Gates his whole life. Okay.
Even when I was talking to him before the event, I was saying, like, oh my God, you got to read the book. It's so funny.

Speaker 1 There are so many funny stories in this book about him being 13 and showing up places with a briefcase and business suits on and making products. And the whole thing is so, it sounds like a cartoon.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And he was like, oh, yeah, my favorite thing is that his mom said, what are you doing in here in his bedroom? And he said,

Speaker 1 I'm thinking you should try it.

Speaker 1 And my brother just knew all this stuff I had just learned in the book that he somehow had already known. Of course.
Anywho, they got to chat for quite a long time.

Speaker 1 It was a very special experience for my brother. That's great.
And yeah, it was sweet. And then yesterday, we gave it to San Francisco straight up the Heine.

Speaker 1 We,

Speaker 1 in four hours, we saw that whole city market.

Speaker 2 Nice.

Speaker 1 We saw Alcatraz. We saw the Golden Gate Bridge, the Bay Bridge.
We went through through Chinatown. We went through North Beach.
We went to Lombard Street.

Speaker 1 We got on the trolley and rode the full loop of the trolley. Wow.
Hanging out the side, Monica.

Speaker 2 So is that something you do with your original family? Because I don't think you do that with your

Speaker 1 family. No, my brother had never been to San Francisco, shockingly.
But so, yeah, seeing Alcatraz and all that stuff, the Golden Gate Bridge, all very exciting.

Speaker 1 Trolley, rice-arony, the San Francisco tree.

Speaker 2 Oh, full house, ding, ding, ding, Olson's.

Speaker 1 Lombard Street.

Speaker 1 Do you know Lombard Street? I've heard. I don't know.
It's the one that's really twisty that goes down the extremely steep.

Speaker 1 And when my brother and I were children, there was a show called You Can't Do This on Television. No, that's Nickelodeon.
It was called That's Incredible.

Speaker 1 Doug DeMocus, the Wheelie King, rode a dirt bike, a wheelie, down Lombard Street. Oh.
Never putting it down. Rode over cars on a wheelie.
Oh, that sounds bad.

Speaker 1 It was a very memorable, seminal moment on television for us. And so to be on Lumbar, where our hero Doug DeMokas had done that sweet wheelie.

Speaker 1 And then some arm cherries were in a 1960s VW micro bus coming down Lumbar Street and started hollering out the window.

Speaker 2 Sometimes people shout out the window and they're arm cherries.

Speaker 1 This happens.

Speaker 2 And I just want to say to anyone who does that to me, it just happened a few times. Yeah.
Don't think I'm a bitch.

Speaker 1 If you get shook a little bit.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Or my first reaction is like, really.

Speaker 1 twist eye rolly not eye rolly like don't don't hurt me yeah don't hurt me don't hurt me don't hurt me please i look scared and angry um

Speaker 2 that's just my reaction but then you let them you let it in but then they say like i'm listening or i listen or i'm gonna whatever and then i i i stopped listening

Speaker 1 i don't like it anymore what happened

Speaker 2 yelled up should have never done video yeah recently a guy did that he honked.

Speaker 2 And then he, I looked over with a mean face, and then he pointed. He was listening at that moment.
He like raised the volume.

Speaker 1 And that was exciting. But I got scared when you saw.
Sorry.

Speaker 1 When you just pointed, it looked like he was pointing at his crotch. But it was obvious it was the.
An armchair would never do that. I know we want it.
But I'm saying.

Speaker 1 It was clear that he was pointing to his stereo. Yeah.
Okay, great. Because when you just did it, it wasn't clear.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Anyway, so go on lombard continue in lombard street chinatown

Speaker 1 alcatraz that fucking trolley made us so happy the cable card

Speaker 1 because that's really classic i just said the cable card the cable card it didn't it didn't read you know i just think it's nuts there's a cable running under the street it is that they put in in 1870 that's still going in a circle also had some great meals oh really great meals.

Speaker 2 San Francisco has great cuisine.

Speaker 1 Oh, my goodness. In fact, one of these places, if you're there, I insist you go called Cavalier.
It's done up. It's a bar, restaurant, tavern, and it's done as an English hunting lodge.

Speaker 1 And the decor was.

Speaker 1 Decor really works for me.

Speaker 2 For everyone. There's a reason aesthetics are important.
I guess I should admit something really gross.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 1 Distasteful.

Speaker 2 Yeah, just bad. But since we are honest here,

Speaker 2 when you started your fact check about wanting to say thank you,

Speaker 2 I thought you were saying thank you to me.

Speaker 1 Oh, I can thank you as well.

Speaker 2 Because I thought where the story was going was that.

Speaker 1 It's so much easier together. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, that's true.
That's totally true. I should have said that.
Now I'm sad I didn't say that. No.
Yeah, I always walk out with you. Yeah.
So

Speaker 1 I mean, if if we eat a big turd together, it'll be together. Right.

Speaker 2 I thought maybe that's what was coming. And then I thought, oh, it's not, maybe it's a different thank you.
Um, also to me, because

Speaker 1 because what? Because what was the second reason? I'll probably agree with it too.

Speaker 2 Because, um, because you were gone and you, as you said, you took your sweet sister

Speaker 2 who who runs this household, uh-huh, yeah. Keeps it in check.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 And Kristen was at

Speaker 2 a table read

Speaker 2 yesterday.

Speaker 1 I don't know if I wanted to say that, but I think it came out.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's been announced.

Speaker 1 For the show? Yeah, season two.

Speaker 1 Bill inquired about it.

Speaker 2 Because he's a dad.

Speaker 1 He's a dad. I tried to explain that to him.

Speaker 1 He didn't understand that. Why, that's why he liked it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's hard to explain that to people. But anyway, so she was at a table read.
So she was at Fox. She was far away and Ana was with her.
Yeah. And Lincoln had a tummy ache.

Speaker 1 Oh, no. So did you have to rescue her?

Speaker 2 So I went to pick her up.

Speaker 1 Is that your first time at that school?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And isn't it beautiful?

Speaker 2 First of all, it's beautiful. We won't say what it is.
No. Even though you probably already have on here.
I have. But it's, it's beautiful.
But I was lost. Yep.
There's, it's like big.

Speaker 1 It's like a mini UCLA.

Speaker 2 There's a campus.

Speaker 2 And I was lost. And I kept having to ask like teens.

Speaker 1 But they're so confident.

Speaker 1 So what my, I think the first thing is you're like, wow, there's a really pretty campus. That quickly pales in comparison to how palpable the confidence is of all those gals running around.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 They're they're on they're living out loud.

Speaker 2 But yeah, so I kept having to ask all these teens. One teen really was like,

Speaker 1 the middle school's over there.

Speaker 2 Like she was mad at me.

Speaker 1 Middle school.

Speaker 2 And I was like, I'm cool. Like I have a podcast.
Do you listen to podcasts? I must have stopped three different people and I could not figure it out. But I eventually

Speaker 1 never got her.

Speaker 2 She's still there.

Speaker 1 Did she get home?

Speaker 2 And then, you know, she picked me up.

Speaker 1 She swung by on her motorcycle and grabbed me because I was lost.

Speaker 2 But it was so cute. And she said, oh, I thought you would be in San Francisco or wherever.

Speaker 2 I thought you'd be with dad. And I said, oh, no, it's just dad.
She was like, he

Speaker 2 kicked you out?

Speaker 2 Oh, geez. And I said, no, that's not really how it works.

Speaker 1 No benefit of the doubt. Yeah.
She went straight to it, kicked you out. She did.

Speaker 2 I said, yeah, you should punch him.

Speaker 2 I didn't want to tell her that her appendix might explode, and that's what was

Speaker 2 maybe going on. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 That was your first, though.

Speaker 2 That was my instinct. So I stuck around in case it didn't explode.

Speaker 1 It didn't. It didn't.
Did she have a poop and then feel like

Speaker 1 that? I didn't ask. Yeah, I'll find out tonight.
Okay.

Speaker 1 My first question.

Speaker 1 Do you get that thing out?

Speaker 1 Do you get it? I have one really special moment. Before this show, they said we want to do a viral video with them.
And I was like, of course. So we played this game.
Heads up.

Speaker 1 And then what's funny is it was tests on things from the book. Oh.

Speaker 1 But they put in Catcher in the Rye, which wasn't in the book. Okay.
But he said something and then I got it. I was, it was on my head.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he goes, was that in the book? And I go, I don't think that was in the book. Is that one of your favorite books? And he goes, oh, yeah.
And I go, oh, it's my absolute favorite book.

Speaker 1 And then we're like, we talk for two seconds. And I go,

Speaker 1 is that why you named your daughter Phoebe?

Speaker 1 And he goes, yeah. Oh, cute.
And I go, I, from the second I read that book, I was like, if I have a daughter, it's going to be Phoebe.

Speaker 1 And it felt very connected. I really liked it.
I had had the same exact

Speaker 1 Cadems and I had that bonding moment, too. I think a handful of men have named their daughters Phoebe because they fell in love with that character.

Speaker 2 You know, you didn't do that, right?

Speaker 1 Is that not my firstborn's name?

Speaker 2 So sorry to tell you.

Speaker 2 So sorry. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, that's because we thought we were having a boy, if you recall. Sure.
Now, you know, you have another character. Delta could have ended up being a Phoebe.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she would have been such a good Phoebe.

Speaker 1 Yes, she would have. That name really would have worked for her.
It would. Although Delta really works pretty good for her course, yeah.

Speaker 2 I can't imagine. Yeah.
Maybe if I have one, I'll name it Phoebe. That's a ding, ding, ding.

Speaker 1 People have been pointing out in the comments that my new over-indexing is Delta. Oh, which is

Speaker 1 100% true. Yeah.
Not Delta, my daughter. Oh.
It's the distance between two things.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. When I talk about,

Speaker 1 I'll say Delta and people are really noticing it. And I guilty is charged.
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I love it. It's very, it's very efficient.
It is. Instead of saying the difference between or a gap between.

Speaker 2 Yeah, actually, yeah, I guess you do do that.

Speaker 1 I do it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I really got it from Formula One.

Speaker 1 They use Delta a lot in Formula One. What did you do while I was gone?

Speaker 1 Other than get lost.

Speaker 2 There's just something about being at school.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I like it.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I went to In-N-Out this weekend. You did?

Speaker 1 Yeah. You got animal style fries and a

Speaker 1 what?

Speaker 2 And I got, no, I got.

Speaker 1 I'm going to blow my nose. Okay.
Sorry. That's okay.

Speaker 2 Have you blown to?

Speaker 1 I've lost some progress. Oh, all right.
It hasn't returned to the insanity, but it's also. Okay.

Speaker 2 Did you slip up on your trip?

Speaker 1 With blowing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Probably.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Hotel room.
Well, I bring tissues over to the bed every night to have them ready. And then when they're there, then I kind of got to use them.

Speaker 1 But I can't risk that I will make it without blowing my nose and have to get up. It's

Speaker 1 a lot of stuff to consider. I know.

Speaker 2 Did anything else interesting happen? Oh, my God. Super Bowl.

Speaker 1 Oh, dude.

Speaker 1 That was

Speaker 1 crazy. What was your favorite commercial?

Speaker 2 The Nike women's commercial.

Speaker 1 That was awesome. I love it.
Playing Led Zeppelin.

Speaker 2 Oh, I bought the shirt.

Speaker 1 Oh, God. That was a very cool commercial.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was probably the best. But, man, I love Willem Dafoe.

Speaker 2 I do. I do too.
I mean,

Speaker 2 Catherine O'Hara.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 2 That was a good pairing.

Speaker 1 But he's he's just...

Speaker 2 Go to the pod. Go check out his episode.

Speaker 1 He's so unique. What a gift he is.
He is. He's a blessing.
I love him. Yeah.
I loved that. He's a plastic.
He is.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that was good.

Speaker 1 He's like in a Wes Anderson movie, even if he's in a commercial.

Speaker 2 That was great. I couldn't hear all of them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I didn't see most of them. I started it an hour and a half late.
Oh, you did? I did. Wow.
Yeah. And then fast-forwarded through everything to catch up.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Not needing to catch up as it turned out because nothing changed.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but the only thing I cared about really,

Speaker 2 really delivered, which was the halftime show. Oh, the halftime show.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 I loved it, but I definitely thought his mic was too low. I was having the hardest time hearing him, like the first four songs.

Speaker 2 Well, we couldn't hear, but it was.

Speaker 1 It was a bad mix.

Speaker 2 It was the TV. No, because when I watched it on YouTube, I could hear everything.
Oh, really? Yeah, you should watch it on YouTube.

Speaker 1 I wonder if on YouTube they cleaned that that up. Oh, maybe.
But on the broadcast, I was like,

Speaker 1 his vocals need to be way up. Just barely hearing the words.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I thought it was so good

Speaker 2 and so well done and so smart as he is. All of those things.
I don't know. I just thought it was so powerful.
I loved it. And

Speaker 2 there's all these like hidden things. I love hidden things.

Speaker 1 Okay. What were some of the

Speaker 1 hiding things? Some clues.

Speaker 1 What was in there?

Speaker 2 Well, did you realize you probably,

Speaker 1 these probably aren't clues.

Speaker 2 They're probably obvious, but

Speaker 2 it was a PlayStation because

Speaker 2 the whole thing is like the game. He's like playing this game with Drake.

Speaker 2 Also, when Samuel Jackson is out there, it's kind of like he was incredible. He was incredible, Uncle Sam.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. He was so incredible.
That's a hard lift. He's got to pop in and out.
Perfect timing.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 Finish before he's got a start. That was complicated.
Yeah. And he was great.

Speaker 2 He was perfect. But yeah.

Speaker 1 He's almost more Kendall Lamar than Kendrick Lamar. No, don't say that.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 No. Oh, my God.
No.

Speaker 1 Sam Jackson's like the original Kendrick Lamar. Well, he's.
I'm sure that's why he was there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 He, of course, is iconic.

Speaker 1 But. They have the same vibe and spirit.
Yeah. Yeah.
But the

Speaker 2 just the message is.

Speaker 1 No tap dancing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 We're not playing this game. Yeah, that was great.
Serena.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I didn't, you didn't see that. You have to rewatch that.
Serena Williams. She sang.
She came out and was crip dancing.

Speaker 1 Oh, I didn't see that.

Speaker 2 You got, you know.

Speaker 1 I thought you were saying the female singer was Serena. No, that's Sizza.
She's huge. I was like, I don't think you got close, but I don't think it's Serena.
I know what I'm talking about. No, you do.

Speaker 1 You know more than I do. For sure.

Speaker 1 I didn't see Serena Crip.

Speaker 2 I definitely need to re-watch this. Oh, gosh.

Speaker 1 I had it very loud. And

Speaker 1 I got goosebumps many times, several times.

Speaker 2 When it's the American flag and he's standing in the middle of it, and they're all, all of the dancers in the arrangement are black.

Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 Just so powerful.

Speaker 1 It's really powerful.

Speaker 2 It was.

Speaker 2 It really was. I love him.

Speaker 2 I want him to come on this show so badly.

Speaker 1 Yes, me too. I had to get brought up to speed by Tim Lovestip.

Speaker 2 About the beef.

Speaker 1 About the beef.

Speaker 2 I told you a little bit about the beef.

Speaker 1 I know about the pedophile part. Yeah.
I know about the lawsuits. Yeah.
I didn't know that he called Drake a colonizer. I didn't know that whole aspect.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
And that Drake had called him, he accused him of making slave music. Did you know that part?

Speaker 2 No, but I know Drake. So I guess there was this huge like.

Speaker 1 And Drake is rich, I heard. Drake is rich.
Drake was like, grew up rich, I heard.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, he's from Canada. You know,

Speaker 2 you know, drake

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 i have zero opinion on drake i just want to say that all me too i have zero feelings i have zero feelings about drake except apparently and there's a daily on this oh there is uh-huh okay um drake likes these beefs like he starts them it's part of they're good for business sure yeah but this one really got out from drake uh-huh and kendra

Speaker 2 isn't really ever the type to get involved in these types of things He's kind of like, which Drake also calls out.

Speaker 2 I think you're so

Speaker 2 beefs.

Speaker 1 Kendrick? Yeah. He's also in a beef with Andrew Schultz.
Oh,

Speaker 1 interesting. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Really? And Andrew did not at all cow tout. He just went straight to war with them.

Speaker 1 What is that, Beef?

Speaker 1 We'll have to watch all the videos. He has a line about don't let a white comedian make fun of our women or something.
Oh, and then so and it's believed that he's referencing Andrew.

Speaker 1 And Andrew then comes out and says he's just not terribly worried about Kendrick.

Speaker 1 And oh, you can, then he, his, his attack back is like, oh, here's the dude you've supported who have raped women and who have beaten women. I don't think I'm your dude.
So that was his pushback. And

Speaker 1 yeah,

Speaker 1 got saucy. Well,

Speaker 1 I thought, boy, Andrew, you're pissing off.

Speaker 2 That's so stupid of him.

Speaker 1 Very, very die-hard fan base. But yeah, he's got at least those two going.
But back to Drake.

Speaker 2 Yeah, okay. But in the hip-hop world,

Speaker 2 he doesn't really do this because he kind of is.

Speaker 2 Drake says it too. Like, you put your, you think you're so great.
You think you're this like poet. Yeah, yeah.
Which he is.

Speaker 2 Anywho, Drake

Speaker 2 is rich and very popular and like, you know, blends. He's not straight up, straight up hip-hop.

Speaker 1 Oh, right.

Speaker 2 He's more poppy, mixed with hip-hop.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Club music.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So people think he's a phony.

Speaker 1 I found myself with that tension of loving a good fuck you song and then knowing the better part of myself doesn't like this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, me too. But in this case, I don't know.

Speaker 1 You went for it. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm getting charged up by this.
Yes. And obviously that's not my aim in life is to like be pumped when someone else is telling another person to fuck off.

Speaker 2 Me either. Effectively.
Well, the pro okay, I agree.

Speaker 1 Unless there's a huge class distinction, of course, then I do enjoy it. But regardless.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I am with you. I don't like enjoy

Speaker 2 this track or a beef.

Speaker 2 I've never been into a beef before.

Speaker 1 Right. This is your first beef.

Speaker 2 This is my first, my first foray into

Speaker 1 the world of beefs.

Speaker 2 But now that I listen to The Daily and I know how much.

Speaker 2 So it was like this big weekend, I guess, where they were like back back and forth they were they kept putting out songs in retaliation to one another at the end in the audience after the halftime show it says game over right because he won right and you know he did win that song that his diss track won five Grammys right like

Speaker 2 sorry I feel bad I actually do feel kind of bad for Drake But he did start it.

Speaker 1 I don't even know.

Speaker 2 He started it according to the daily.

Speaker 1 Okay, all right. I'm nervous.
I don't want to be on either side of it. Why?

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 I don't want to join a team when the half the other people hate the team. I don't want to be on a team that's hated by half of people.

Speaker 1 It's not my desire in life.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 If I cared deeply about this feud between Drake and Kendrick,

Speaker 1 I might, but I don't care at all. These are both very rich, talented dudes.
I don't think there's an oppressed version of oppressed.

Speaker 2 Well, I think, yeah. I mean, they did come from very different backgrounds.
Like, I don't, it'd be like you,

Speaker 2 who came from a certain background,

Speaker 2 you probably feel like you have more of an entitlement to talk about that and rap

Speaker 2 about that than somebody who didn't experience it.

Speaker 1 But again, I don't even know enough about Drake. Is he rapping about the hood?

Speaker 2 He raps about Bling.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Oh, since we're talking about pop culture, which we rarely do, and I tend to, for whatever reason, be allergic to.

Speaker 1 Did you know the Kanye thing?

Speaker 1 Yes. So step one was arriving at the Grammys Uninvited with the wife who was then naked.
Okay, that was event number one.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 he paid for his own Super Bowl commercial.

Speaker 2 Yes. Which directed people to go to it.
He said to go to Yeezy.com.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And if you went to Yeezy.com, there was a single item for sale and it was a shirt with a swastika on it. Yep.
I mean, this is

Speaker 1 absolutely mad as conceivable. This whole world.
I'm dying to know.

Speaker 2 It's so bad.

Speaker 1 I'm dying to hear his thought process. I'm just dying to understand

Speaker 1 how he got himself to a point where he paid for a Super Bowl. He hates Jewish people.

Speaker 2 He says it. It's not, we don't have to read through the lines.
The fact that that's not illegal, illegal, I don't like, I don't, although now I guess there's talk about the NFL

Speaker 2 maybe suing him because when he did the commercial, that wasn't up. He had real items on his site until the next day he changed it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I guess there is some conversation about him being sued for that, but I

Speaker 1 don't know. It's

Speaker 2 so embarrassing.

Speaker 1 What I want to know, to be clear, is the same thing I wanted to talk to Roseanne about. He knows this is a very damaging move.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know what's like passing a point of no return.

Speaker 2 It's been like that, though. He keeps doing stuff like this.

Speaker 1 I mean, they're escalating in severity.

Speaker 1 He wasn't previously, to my knowledge, selling swastika shirts.

Speaker 2 No, but he was saying openly he hates Jewish people.

Speaker 1 He's like,

Speaker 1 he's getting close to being a neo-Nazi. Close.

Speaker 1 Okay, right. He is a hundred people.

Speaker 1 He's a black neo-Nazi. Yes, he is.
Now, how does a rational, at one time, seemingly savvy and rational person end up here?

Speaker 1 Other than just the obvious bipolar. Yeah, he is, he's bipolar.

Speaker 2 But yes, as I was reading something today, like that's that for people who are like, well, he's just, he's bipolar, which he is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 95% of bipolar people don't aren't hate-filled. They're not using it to hurt people.

Speaker 1 And if you found out Hitler was bipolar, you wouldn't go like, oh, that makes sense. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I have a whole theory I'm not entitled to have about Roseanne, which is I think

Speaker 1 the racism Messiah was racist. I acknowledge it.

Speaker 1 But that's just one of many historic things she has done at the height of her.

Speaker 1 popularity to really alienate everyone and test whether they love her. Like the famous...

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 that's you deciding and test what, like that's you being very introspective and saying you think it's because deep down she's testing whether.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think like when she sang the national anthem

Speaker 1 intentionally poorly and annoyingly, and she pissed everyone off, and it's like the patriotism flared up and she's brilliant.

Speaker 1 She's too smart to not know that wasn't a good move. So then I wonder what story is she confirming by doing this thing.

Speaker 1 Like, well, how could she, as smart as she was, convince herself that I'm going to do this? And I think it's this:

Speaker 1 you don't believe all these people that love you really love you. And then your brain comes up with this bizarre test of that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 To find out, to confirm you're right, basically, but no one really loves you. They love this fake version of you they see on TV or hear in music.

Speaker 1 I have to believe that's going on with Kanye.

Speaker 2 I don't think so. You don't think so.
i i i appreciate that you really give people and i know

Speaker 1 i don't think you're giving him the benefit of the doubt but like i i think i think a bunch of things have gone terribly wrong in his life that he's the author of no question yeah he's he creates chaos uh-huh and i think

Speaker 2 you and probably many people

Speaker 2 feel

Speaker 2 like

Speaker 2 there's a empathetic reason behind that.

Speaker 1 Well, do you think there's a reason other than that Kanye West was born evil and now we're seeing it and he hid it for 40 years?

Speaker 2 Do you think and but you don't think anyone's born evil and I don't either, but I think people become, I do think there are a, there are people in this world who become irredeemable.

Speaker 1 They become so

Speaker 2 so driven to chaos and destruction. And

Speaker 1 yeah, and I'm not making an argument that he should be redeemed.

Speaker 2 No, I would hope, yeah, no.

Speaker 1 I'm not making an argument that people who have committed crimes should not go sit in prison. But I am working with an assumption that something happened to them that now resulted in this.

Speaker 1 I think there are serial killers, and I think there's narcissists, and I think there's sociopaths who enjoy, and there's

Speaker 1 sadists who like to hurt things. I know those people exist.
Yeah. But

Speaker 1 I think a lot of non-mental pathology people do really weird stuff that I'm quite curious why they would ruin their lives in this way.

Speaker 1 Like, this is a person who's ruined their lives.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. But over and over, like, it's not

Speaker 2 keeps doing it. He keeps causing harm.

Speaker 1 Does it seem like a tragedy to you? Because it seems like a tragedy to me.

Speaker 2 It seems like a waste to me, but I don't. I don't think of it as a tragedy.

Speaker 2 I think what he's doing to people, I think causing this kind of fear and instability and across the board, even when he like goes up and steals a thing from Taylor, it's all, it's all, it's mean, it's bad.

Speaker 2 I'm also of the belief that a lot of that type specifically

Speaker 2 thrives off oxygen. And so I don't, like, I don't really want to give him any ever.
Like, I think he's

Speaker 2 disgusting and I, I, I I don't want to talk about him really. I mean, this is a fine conversation, but you know, everyone's, of course, like posting about it.

Speaker 2 And there was another shirt made in retaliation, which I think is awesome. That is what he wants.
He wants chaos. He wants a reaction.
He wants people to be scared and be angry. And

Speaker 2 I don't want to play.

Speaker 1 Right. Like,

Speaker 2 bye, just go away. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

Speaker 1 If you dare.

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Speaker 1 Do you think he's sold any? I don't know.

Speaker 2 Well, it's gone now. Oh, it is? Yeah, Shopify took it down.

Speaker 1 Okay. Let's just say it's a historic public meltdown for the ages.
I mean, it's one of the most bizarre things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it's not that bizarre because it's been such a long, he's been escalating to this for so long.

Speaker 1 I mean, there was a period where he was just writing incredible music.

Speaker 1 A long time. He came up with some of the greatest Jay-Z songs with him.
Like, there was some period where he was just a volcano of incredible creativity.

Speaker 2 He was. But we also don't know who he was back then.

Speaker 1 No, when I watched the doc about him before he got really crazy, what I saw is a guy who

Speaker 1 had some very deep social challenges his whole life. I think he's been very

Speaker 1 atypical as a person.

Speaker 2 I think so too.

Speaker 1 You know what part of the problem is, I can admit,

Speaker 1 I so can't relate to hating Jewish people. It seems like the dumbest thing to me.
Yeah. And so it's so cuckoo that I wonder, how does one get themselves there?

Speaker 2 I hear you. And that's me too.
I'm like, I don't even understand this.

Speaker 2 But six million of them were killed because someone didn't like them. Yeah.
One person who created such a massive

Speaker 2 revolution that like six million of them were killed. So it's, it sounds cuckoo.
And then that is also the reality.

Speaker 1 There's a huge history of it. Even before they killed them, they weren't allowed to participate in most of the economy.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like they've been

Speaker 1 very poorly treated for hundreds and hundreds of years. Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's an underestimation of making a group the scapegoat of a problem.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 how really bad that can get.

Speaker 1 When you have poor white people living in the same city with poor black people and poor Latinos.

Speaker 1 I see we see the lack of resources and the competition that's definitely going to file into these ingrews. It's kind of quite predictable.

Speaker 1 Like it's a bunch of people in scarcity blaming one another for their scarcity. Makes a lot of sense.
I'm not even sure where you're interacting in that circle.

Speaker 1 Like you're not thinking Jewish people have taken your jobs. You're not thinking like all these other things that perpetuate that kind of inner city poor stereotyping and racism.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's just like they're not going to jail a lot. There's nothing.
I'm not even sure.

Speaker 2 They control the media.

Speaker 2 There's narratives. I mean, they're ridiculous, but there are narratives that get built.
That's why I'm so allergic to any stereotype, whether it's good or bad, because you don't know.

Speaker 1 What the good ones?

Speaker 2 No, because it's a just

Speaker 2 as soon as you start doing massive generalizations,

Speaker 1 Indians have really great hair.

Speaker 2 No, only me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's just, it's, it is,

Speaker 2 I've, I mean, I've been not really paying on purpose too much attention to what has been going on in the world. It does feel

Speaker 2 a little irresponsible like I'm trying to figure out the line of complete ignoring and keeping my sanity.

Speaker 2 I haven't really found it yet. So I'm, I'm sort of not partaking at all.
But yeah, things make your way to you. And it is scary.
I mean, it's just

Speaker 2 that well, that. And then to circle back to a little bit is, oh my God, it's so crazy.
He put this t-shirt up.

Speaker 2 It's not that crazy because

Speaker 2 permission has been granted by

Speaker 2 our most elite in charge to say whatever the fuck you want to say, to do whatever the fuck you want to do. Elon is doing a hail Hitler that was at our United States inauguration.

Speaker 2 So, you know, I'm just saying, like, it's not out of nowhere that someone crazy like that is going to feel like, well, now is the time I can put my t-shirt up. Okay.

Speaker 2 Well, speaking of stereotypes, Walton.

Speaker 1 Walton Coggins.

Speaker 2 Shout out to Georgia Southern.

Speaker 2 A school near where I grew up.

Speaker 1 How far?

Speaker 1 60 miles.

Speaker 2 Ooh, you know, I don't know about miles.

Speaker 1 Probably further, because Atlanta is really in the middle. So if it's called southern, I gotta, it's gotta be closer to Florida, no?

Speaker 2 No, no, it's in

Speaker 1 the Georgia, uh, the Atlanta area.

Speaker 2 Well, it's in Georgia, right?

Speaker 1 But is it in southern Georgia? Yeah, okay, closer to Florida.

Speaker 2 I guess, I would imagine. I guess I've never thought of it as closer to Florida, but yeah.

Speaker 1 It's just to the south of you.

Speaker 2 Let's find out how far it is from my parents' house. Great.
I'm going to use maps for that.

Speaker 1 Okay, good. Okay.

Speaker 2 It's three hours and 28 minutes.

Speaker 1 Okay. Some more than 60 miles.

Speaker 1 150, 160?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's

Speaker 2 231 miles.

Speaker 1 Whoa, that's very far.

Speaker 2 Wow. From my parents.

Speaker 1 From your parents. So it must really be on that border.

Speaker 2 It's here. It's here.
And that's Savannah on the coast there. Okay.

Speaker 1 So it's a bit east and south from Atlanta. But yeah, it's pretty close to Jacksonville, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, not not too far, not too bad, not too far. You could be there for a lunch appointment if you had to.
Oh, wow,

Speaker 1 get some fresh oranges.

Speaker 2 Um, I had a lot of friends who went there.

Speaker 1 Dude, you guys, you guys would drive to Disney World, obviously, right? You're very close. Yeah, we would.
Or we're six hours.

Speaker 1 Okay, at the speed your father drove. It was eight hours.

Speaker 1 Let me put it in

Speaker 1 Disney World.

Speaker 2 Six hours, 55 minutes.

Speaker 2 Okay, 472 miles. Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm sure you guys had to stop. I know what it's like.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we had to stop.

Speaker 1 We couldn't go more than 60 damn miles this summer in Europe.

Speaker 2 Okay, Tortuga. Yes, Spanish word for turtle.

Speaker 1 Well, it's a great word.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 2 His earliest memories are in Decatur. My mom worked at Decatur Federal Bank.

Speaker 2 That was one of her first jobs.

Speaker 1 Okay. How long did she serve? I thank her for her service, too.

Speaker 2 Me too. I don't know.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. An annulment.

Speaker 1 Yes. How does an annulment work? Okay.

Speaker 2 An annulment is a legal ruling that ends a marriage by declaring it invalid. It makes the marriage null and void as if it never happened.
Here are the criteria: fraud.

Speaker 2 If one spouse tricked the other into marriage.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Coercion. If one spouse was forced into the marriage.
Okay. Mental incapacity.
That's really bad. Hard to

Speaker 2 ding, ding, ding.

Speaker 2 Kanye's wife. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 They could get an annulment.

Speaker 2 If one spouse was not mentally capable of marrying, physical inability, if one spouse is unable to consummate the marriage.

Speaker 1 Yeah. This is interesting.
Yeah, you were against this and I was for this.

Speaker 2 I know. I'm against it.

Speaker 1 Because you can't. If someone marries you

Speaker 1 and they can't perform sex with you,

Speaker 1 you needed to say that ahead of time because you can't just surprise someone

Speaker 1 and say, guess what? Sex won't be a part of this marriage. You can go, well, then that's

Speaker 1 obviously the understanding was there would be sex.

Speaker 2 But what if you are married, you're having sex. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then it's been consummated.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it has been consummated. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh, it's consummate just the first time? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 2 so it's not like then in two months, you know.

Speaker 1 So you get married and a year later, you still haven't had sex.

Speaker 2 Well, what if you have sex and then you stop being able to?

Speaker 2 Some men have that issue.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 So then can you annul after like a year?

Speaker 1 It sounds like consummated is a very operative word.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So it sounds like never had sex.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 That's fair. You need to tell someone up front.
about

Speaker 2 what if you don't know what if you've had sex with other people and then for some reason with this person you just can't you should get your marriage annulled and find a partner you can have sex with.

Speaker 1 That's my suggestion there for both parties. What about if somebody fraud there was fraud, fraud was listed in the divorce and the annulment with Kenny Chesney

Speaker 1 and Renee Zellweger. But what happened? I know.
That's the great curiosity. What was fraudulent about what he was promising? Or her.

Speaker 1 I think she cited fraud. Oh.
If memory serves me. Okay.
This has been a very

Speaker 1 gossipy

Speaker 1 inside Hollywood edition. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Incest,

Speaker 2 if the marriage between people who are too closely related by blood. I agree with that one.

Speaker 1 Cousins, though? I agree. Wait, you don't think cousins can get married? No.
Oh, you don't? That one's very loosey-goosey. What? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 We had an expert on that had a whole chapter about incest and has gone through the world. And it's very rare for a culture to have

Speaker 1 forbid cousins to get married. It's very common everywhere.
No.

Speaker 2 Cousins, you mean like second and third and fourth?

Speaker 1 I don't want to marry any of my cousins. Right.

Speaker 1 But I could also imagine never even meeting your cousin.

Speaker 2 I haven't met some of mine, but I don't want to marry them.

Speaker 1 What if you met them and they are, you meet them for the first time at 37

Speaker 1 and they're gorgeous.

Speaker 2 Great.

Speaker 1 Let's get married.

Speaker 2 Great. Meet me at the chat.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, that's so.

Speaker 1 This is a Jonathan I think.

Speaker 2 Cyclopses.

Speaker 1 No, so that's a little exaggerated.

Speaker 1 Not between siblings, but.

Speaker 2 It still can have

Speaker 2 when it's too close, it's not good. Yeah, but that's science.

Speaker 1 This was a part of the

Speaker 1 book you can't remember. I want to say it might have been Paul Bloom the last time I read his thing.
I think it's been a little exaggerated, the genetic risk of cousins.

Speaker 1 I'm not, I don't want to be be with my cousins, but I don't, I don't think I care if other cousins are together. Really? I don't think I do.
I have to make myself care. I don't.

Speaker 2 I guess, I guess people can do what they want.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's very common throughout the world.

Speaker 1 Someone's preferred. No, it's pretty.
Yeah, a lot of places it's preferred. No, it's not.

Speaker 2 Okay, bigamy. If one spouse was already married to someone else, that feels fair.

Speaker 2 Bigamy is the only one we can come together on.

Speaker 1 You and I? Yeah. Whoa.

Speaker 2 No mental incapacity, right? And physical.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we don't. And coercion.
Coercion and coercion. What one don't we? It's just consummation.
Incest.

Speaker 1 Well, and consummation.

Speaker 2 Oh, consummation is physical. Yeah.
I know. I'm on the fence about that.

Speaker 1 I can't believe you're on the fence about that.

Speaker 1 Why get married? Be friends. What if you're in?

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 2 love is not just, love is more than sex and friendship.

Speaker 1 Asexual love is romantic love, and you get married, and then you have friendships that are loving and supportive. You could be roommates.
That's great.

Speaker 1 But entering into the romantic bond of marriage with no attraction to the person or interest in it being sexual with them, I think it's a deal breaker. It's a total deal breaker.
No, hold on.

Speaker 1 I want to be very clear. If you're asexual, I honor that.
And you said to the person, I'm asexual. I don't ever want to have sex.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Great. And that person's like, cool, I don't either.
Go crazy.

Speaker 2 Right. But no, I'm.

Speaker 1 But you really need to declare that. That can't be a surprise.
Okay.

Speaker 2 I want to pivot this a little bit. You put sexual love and romantic love in the same bucket.
You, you call that the same bucket.

Speaker 1 Those are synonymous.

Speaker 2 For you, those are synonyms. Yes.
That's interesting.

Speaker 1 Oh, is it?

Speaker 2 Yeah. You think that's I think there are three buckets.

Speaker 1 I think there's sexual

Speaker 1 attraction,

Speaker 2 romantic love,

Speaker 2 and then friendship love.

Speaker 1 Why would romantic love be different than the sexual bucket?

Speaker 1 Who would you be romantically in love with that you didn't want to have sex with?

Speaker 1 You would just be in friends love with them as a friend.

Speaker 2 No, like, I think maybe this is gendered, but I think for a lot of women.

Speaker 2 Not me, because I'm not married, but I could see this. I could see

Speaker 2 over time

Speaker 2 being less sexually attract. I mean, this happens in every marriage, right? You become like less sexually attracted to your married, marriage partner.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But you're still romantically in love with them. You love them in a way you don't love your friends.

Speaker 1 Yes, but you had a sexual relationship that has slowed down. As opposed to you were never intending to have a sexual relationship and sex was never going to be.

Speaker 2 No, I know this. I guess I'm just saying to me, those are, they're three buckets.
they're not like loving someone romantically or loving a partner uh-huh

Speaker 2 apart from sex is a different kind of love

Speaker 2 and care and and than

Speaker 2 a love for a friend for me for you know this is kind of interesting yeah i think i'm either

Speaker 1 uh I want a romantic love with a woman

Speaker 1 or I want a friendship love with them. There's no third bucket for me.
Considering love,

Speaker 1 sure, there's people I would love to have sex with that I would not want to hang out with, which is kind of gendered, generally speaking.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 yeah, there's no one that I

Speaker 1 would want a romantic relationship with that I wouldn't want to have sex with. Wouldn't happen.
Right. Then they would just be a friend.

Speaker 1 And I wouldn't marry them.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You want to marry a friend? No. And have no sex.
No, I know I didn't. And not justify an annulment if they asked for it.

Speaker 2 I did not say that. I didn't say that.

Speaker 2 I just think romantic love is different than sexual attraction.

Speaker 2 Obviously, you want both in your

Speaker 2 husband's life.

Speaker 1 Like romantic love is wanting to kiss the person's lips.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's the same thing as sexual attraction. But those aren't different things to me.
But over time.

Speaker 1 Like, there's no one I want to kiss really bad, but then don't want to have sex with. If I want to kiss them and I love them.

Speaker 2 But like

Speaker 2 over time in the marriage, not to get too personal,

Speaker 2 but like

Speaker 2 every time you kiss Kristen, you want to have sex with her? Like, no, like that's a, that it's like a message.

Speaker 1 No, but I would like to have sex with Kristen.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right. And if I didn't want to have sex with her, that would be an issue.

Speaker 2 But if you didn't want to have sex, let's say like now after so many years, you stopped really wanting to have sex with her, but you still love her romantically in a way that is different than how you love.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I just, I think comparing something 20 years out and

Speaker 1 week one, no one's getting a marriage annulled after 20 years.

Speaker 1 I'm talking you marry someone as revealed to you. They have no intention to have a sexual relationship with you.
I think you're definitely entitled to get out of that marriage.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I guess I agree.

Speaker 1 It's false advertisement.

Speaker 2 Well, also, it's on you.

Speaker 2 Why haven't you asked about their sexual appetites before you married them?

Speaker 1 Well, I think you have said, I can't wait to be married. I can't wait for our first night.
I can't wait to have a second. No, then that's fraud.

Speaker 1 And then the person didn't go, there's not going to be a first night, just so you know. Because I don't want to have sex with you because I'm not romantically attracted to you.

Speaker 2 What if they want to really bad, bad, but they just can't?

Speaker 1 Meaning, they can't get an erection. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Again, if you are not able to ever get an erection and have sex with your wife, then I think your wife's entitled to be with someone who can. I am sorry.
It's already a bummer for you.

Speaker 1 It shouldn't also be a bummer for that person.

Speaker 2 Okay. What if a couple was waiting to have sex until they got married? Yeah.
And then they both were really horny. He could get it up.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 She could get it in. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, but then on the night of the wedding,

Speaker 2 his dick gets cut off by a stranger. Someone comes, a robber comes in and he starts attacking and the robber cuts his dick off and leaves.

Speaker 1 It's still not fraud because you didn't false advertise. Right.
You just, someone cut your dick off. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That person, someone cuts my dick off. I'm still going to put a lot of energy into making sure Kristen's still having lots of sexual experiences.

Speaker 2 But not

Speaker 2 sexual intercourse.

Speaker 1 With my penis no because it's consummate it's gone that's called consummate okay so it's on the actual day of the wedding yeah i mean that's quite complicated and i don't know if we have a single case of that ever happening okay well but if that happened that would be up to the gal to decide if she wanted to never have sex the rest of her life yeah or if she decided she does want to have sex then what arrangement could they work out where she could still have sex yeah they could still be married most men would allow her to No, most men are very jealous.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 2 That's the thing. They would not allow her to go have sex.
I would for sure.

Speaker 1 I would almost insist on it.

Speaker 1 She probably might

Speaker 1 want to.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. It would probably be a thing.
Yeah. Like, you cannot can't go your whole life.
It's not your fault that my dick got cut off at the ceremony. Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Little did you know she hired that robber.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. Because she was asexual the whole time.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 But again, someone asexual is going to be upset. I'm not judging you.
I'm not talking about you. Two asexual people want to get married and have a non-sex marriage.

Speaker 2 Or an asexual person with the sexual person, if that sexual person decides it's fine. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Good luck to them.

Speaker 2 That's up to them.

Speaker 2 Everyone gets to make their own.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but everyone's got to be honest.

Speaker 2 Unless it's incest.

Speaker 1 And you just got to be honest.

Speaker 2 Everyone has to be honest. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 If you're not honest, I think you're

Speaker 1 you should be able to get out of that.

Speaker 2 Sure. I

Speaker 2 understand that. I also just think it's stupid.
like annulment to me isn't less

Speaker 1 than a divorce just get a divorce well but it is in that there's no splitting of communal property there's no it just never happened there's no bunch of legal fees there's no uh

Speaker 1 but it says the marriage records remain on file yeah but you no longer have to say i was married and divorced because you weren't Now that to me is fraudulent.

Speaker 2 If I married someone and then later and I found out that they had an annulment, they didn't tell me.

Speaker 1 All I'm saying is, you're not a divorcee.

Speaker 1 Who cares?

Speaker 2 It does the same thing.

Speaker 1 If I marry a divorce, I mean, yeah, someone should tell somebody

Speaker 1 if they had an annulment. But I definitely see why

Speaker 1 if someone coerced you into wedding, you shouldn't have to go get a divorce and have that be your ex-husband and all these things. No, I think it should be like it never happened.

Speaker 2 Interesting. You're very religious now.

Speaker 1 I am very, really. In his name, we pray.

Speaker 1 Under his eye.

Speaker 2 Under his eye.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 1 That was it. Yeah, that's okay.
Okay.

Speaker 1 God. I don't want you to get an annulment, but it's very fun.

Speaker 2 Why?

Speaker 1 Well, just because we just talked about it, and there's, I'm wondering, you know, like, I do not have to go through any of this.

Speaker 1 What avenue are you going to pursue?

Speaker 2 That is so mean with you.

Speaker 1 You have a menu of options. Like, I want this annulled.
Which one's?

Speaker 2 Let's hope it's not incest.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 2 so sad.

Speaker 1 All right. Love you.

Speaker 1 Love you.

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