Alison Wood Brooks (on the science of conversation)

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Speaker 1 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.
Hi. Today we have Dr.
Allison Wood Brooks.

Speaker 1 She is a behavioral research scientist and professor at Harvard.

Speaker 2 At Harvard. That's a very fancy school.

Speaker 1 Yes, Harvard Business School.

Speaker 2 That's right. HBS.

Speaker 1 HBS. She has a new book out right now called Talk, The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves.
She is an incredibly good guest.

Speaker 2 So fun. And I do think we take for granted conversation.
We think we're just going to show up and be able to do it.

Speaker 2 I really, really like this in the context, I mean, in general, but dating, which we talk about a fair amount, and why a lot of these are not very successful.

Speaker 1 You actually put no time into planning how you're going to converse.

Speaker 2 There's like real tricks for conversation.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's not disingenuous to use them. Yeah.
Also, she's an identical twin. Yeah.
So we had a lot of fun twin chatter.

Speaker 2 That part is very cool.

Speaker 1 And further imploring us to get a twin.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we really want that. Yeah.
She's one of the guests that we have that is a teacher at a fancy school, and their class is like so

Speaker 1 active.

Speaker 1 People really want it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's one of these favorite classes.

Speaker 2 Do you know, I often, I have a recurring dream

Speaker 2 that I am

Speaker 2 not fin, like everyone's finished with their classes.

Speaker 2 It's the last semester and I forgot. to like do my put my classes in correctly and now I'm behind and I'm gonna have to take all these extra classes to graduate.
Yep.

Speaker 2 And then I'm also looking at the classes and I really want this specific class because it's like the fun class that everyone wants to take.

Speaker 2 I have this dream a lot.

Speaker 1 I have half of that. I don't ever have the class I'm trying to take.
Okay. I have the like, what happened? We're mid-semester.
Have I gone to any classes? Yeah. There's a final.

Speaker 1 I wake up on set a lot where I'm directing something I haven't read. Right.
I'm like, oh my God.

Speaker 1 It's ill-prepared.

Speaker 2 Anxiety. But her class would be

Speaker 2 one in my dream.

Speaker 1 You should add it. Yeah.
You should incorporate it. Yeah.
Please enjoy Allison Wood Brooks.

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Speaker 1 He's an object.

Speaker 1 He's an object.

Speaker 1 Most people who love Diet Coke will acknowledge it does seem to be a bit of an addiction. Yeah, because it's a stimulant, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 We cut through so many cases of Diet Coke at HBF, at Harvard, because so many of the faculty are ADHD and they're self-medicating and tiny doses. Makes sense.
Yeah. It's their over-the-counter ridley.

Speaker 1 Yeah. In addition to their real rid list.

Speaker 2 Although Diet Pepsi is becoming more of a thing, I don't know if you guys heard about the new trends. Say it.
There's a song out called Diet Pepsi and Diet Pepsi sales are skyrocketing. Come on.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's real.

Speaker 1 I want to see the song.

Speaker 2 She's got big poppies.

Speaker 1 I want to see a link to the data.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's real.
Some people have converted from Diet Coke to Diet Pepsi.

Speaker 1 I wanted you to say that it was Britney Spears because she had that like amazing. Remember the ad back in the day? She was so hot.
She was so gorgeous. I would love to see a resurgence.

Speaker 1 Get back in it. Britney Spears with the Diet Pepsi.
She's the one bringing it back. That's what I want.
Right.

Speaker 2 Addison Ray.

Speaker 1 Addison Rae. Kind of a new gen, Britney Spears.
Exactly. As if we're being real.

Speaker 1 I don't know that. Is that the case?

Speaker 1 It's funny you'd say that because you have a reference in the book. You chose an artist, and I was like, that's a young artist.
Ariana Grande? Yes. You talk about her video to describe context.
Yes.

Speaker 1 Look at you with your memory. Holy moly.

Speaker 1 Michelle is like, wow, you have three children. I don't know your age.
I'm turning 40 next month. Congratulations.
I am at a major inflection point in my life. You're hitting me at the right time.

Speaker 1 You're young. Where are you from, Allison? I grew up in upstate New York in the Finger Lakes area.
Very rust belty.

Speaker 1 When I was growing up there, not fancy. Since I've moved away and become an adult, it's a beautiful place.
And I think the world is more onto it now.

Speaker 1 Okay, so what's really exciting, and it comes up quite often, this topic, and in fact, we are in search of a great twins expert.

Speaker 1 Am I the expert? Maybe. I think I might be the expert.
I think you're too close to it to be an expert. That's a good point.

Speaker 1 Won't be as objective. I'm a lived expert.
Sarah is your identical twin.

Speaker 1 I don't think I ever really considered this. It's adjacent to self-awareness.

Speaker 1 We all strive to have a good deal of self-awareness, but you articulate it in the book, and I wouldn't have considered this as you also have like an external version of self-awareness where you get to watch her move through the world and try things and see how they react.

Speaker 1 That's very peculiar, isn't it? In an interesting way.

Speaker 2 Seeing if being more outspoken, like you can't say, well, it's because they look like this. All the factors are the same.
So that is very interesting.

Speaker 1 And we all have multiple selves, but as a twin, you get to see one of your sort of selves outside of your body. It's an amazing, lucky life.

Speaker 1 I don't know anything else, but it's really quite something. Are you mere twins? Is one of you left-handed and one right? No.
Oh, bummers. See, that's one of the things I need to answer.

Speaker 1 How many people are like that? You're right. I'm not an expert.
I don't know those answers. But you're identical.
We're identical. We didn't know we were identical until high school.
What?

Speaker 1 AP biology class was like, hey, can we test you and figure it out? Oh, wow. And they did.
And then you lay the results side by side. This was way before 23 and me.
And they were identical.

Speaker 1 I mean, looked like the same person.

Speaker 1 Wow. My parents didn't know they were having twins until I was out.
It sounds like the dark ages. Would you feel like an internal embarrassment when she would embarrass herself? Of course.

Speaker 1 In the same way that you do if you're hanging out with your sibling or you're a very close friend and they do something, there's always a vicarious embarrassment.

Speaker 1 But this is amplified even more because it's a reflection of you. You're watching yourself do an embarrassing thing as it unfolds live.
And you have this normal sibling thing where you're like, stop.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you said there's like a combination of things that were helpful. One was being able to see how you seemed in public, but then also you guys had constant unfiltered feedback.
Two things.

Speaker 1 You're sort of watching a version of yourself interact in the world. So that's a passive version of feedback where you're seeing how the world reacts to this version of you.

Speaker 1 But then you're also directly talking to each other in the way that very close siblings do. And you feel even more empowered to be sort of brutal to each other, right? Like, what the hell was that?

Speaker 1 Ew, gross. Don't do that.
Relentless. We are still that way.
She lives a mile down the road from me. She does.
She also has three kids, two boys, and a little girl. No.
Swear to God.

Speaker 1 And is she a professor? She's not a professor. She's a cool twin.
She runs a non-profit. It's amazing.
It's called Prime Coalition. I never thought of that either.

Speaker 1 You could only give so many compliments to your identical twin before.

Speaker 1 It would sound indulgent and narcissistic. You're like, she's beautiful.
Well, beautiful. She's stunning.
Yeah. She's the daddy.
She's the best person I've ever met.

Speaker 2 Yeah, who looks as pretty as her.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you got to be careful. Exactly.
Like a weird self-toast. Yeah.
But honestly, I admire admire her so much. She's done really amazing things.
So your hair is naturally curly. Big time.

Speaker 1 And you chose to straighten your hair. So you were doing things to try to carve out some individual.

Speaker 1 The whole existence, my whole existence anyway, is every moment you're making these choices of who am I going to be? How are we similar? How are we going to differentiate?

Speaker 1 When are we going to cooperate and work together and collaborate? When are we going to compete? She's going to play the flute. I'm going to play the oboe, but we're both going to be in the orchestra.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And you're a three-point shooter, and she was a mid-range shooter.
She's a three-point shooter. Vice versa.
I got that Brooks mid-range.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you both played basketball. It must have been so fun when you guys came to schools in junior high, and people are like, there's twins on this team.
We're not quiet, drinking violet.

Speaker 1 One of me would have already been a lot. Yeah.
There is this added layer of like, you like a boy. If he likes you, I don't know.
Conceivably, he'd also like. Was there anything tricky there?

Speaker 1 Of course. I think we only dated the same guy once.
What if he's like a dad? Wow, but you did do that.

Speaker 1 Maybe when you're young, one year we held hands for a week and then four years later they went on a date. I think that's kind of the extent of it.

Speaker 1 Because that would be really weird. And are your current husbands similar? They are similar in some ways, but quite different.
She's always had different tastes than me, actually. And suitors.

Speaker 1 And in the ways that complement how she and I are different from each other. And you saw this a little bit in the book.
I was so hard on her about who she was dating.

Speaker 1 My expectations for who she would end up with were even higher than for myself, which are already so high. Did you ever feel inferior to her or superior or both?

Speaker 1 Both, because it's like having a mirror.

Speaker 1 You actually get a better sense of what you're good at and not good at because you have this example of someone who is actually slightly better or slightly worse than you at certain times.

Speaker 1 As a psychologist now, for a long time, I would have loved to believe that everything is malleable. Everything is trainable and learnable and you can change so much about yourself.

Speaker 1 But I think being an identical twin does highlight how many things are outside your control and genetic. Our hands, if you laid them side by side, I could not tell them apart.

Speaker 1 Our feet, our voices. I still should this day answer the phone.
Hello, says Allison, because I can't even tell the difference in our voices just on the phone.

Speaker 1 There are things about our bodies and about your mind that you don't have control over. And then I had my own kids.
They each come out so different. And you're like, holy cow, nature's really a thing.

Speaker 1 It's fascinating. It is so fascinating.

Speaker 1 So, you went to Princeton for undergrad, and then you went to Wharton for graduate school. What was the undergrad degree in?

Speaker 1 Psychology was my major, and I got a minor, they called a certificate there in finance.

Speaker 1 Not because I was interested in finance per se, but because I was really interested in economics and this judgment and decision-making behavioral science stuff, behavioral economics.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Wait, sorry, I have one more twin thing.
I know

Speaker 2 we're past twins. I have to know if you have the thing that they all have where you can sort of read each other's minds.

Speaker 1 In this book and in my course and in conversation in general, there's so much mind reading that you have to do of all people. Like we're constantly trying to figure out what are they thinking about?

Speaker 1 How are they feeling? Are they interested in this right now? Are they bored? There's this tremendous level of mind reading. I think twins get better at that with each other.
This is a hypothesis.

Speaker 1 This has not been studied, but possibly they get better at it with other people as well because because they just had more practice doing it their whole development, their whole childhood.

Speaker 1 But I think that's where the stereotype comes from with twins is that they can read each other's minds. They've spent a lot of time together.

Speaker 1 They know each other really, really well and their brains work similarly. True.
See, we got into a little bit of a chat about the validity of these telepathy tapes thing that's going around.

Speaker 1 We were using ourselves as examples because we're both quite good at predicting what the other. I'm more inclined to think it's just pattern recognition.

Speaker 1 And I also think if if you A observed your sister her whole life, so God, you've seen her react to every way. And then intuitively, you kind of know how you would react.

Speaker 1 You know, input A is going to equal this stimulus is going to equal this output. I tend to believe it's that.
Totally.

Speaker 1 And what it has shown me is even though we're so good at predicting what the other person will do, we have this tight-knit, which psychologists would call shared reality.

Speaker 1 You're better at predicting what your twin's going to do than probably anyone else in the world. And I still don't know exactly what she's thinking and feeling.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It just shows you, even when you have so much in common, you have the same upbringing, the same genes, so many shared experiences, you still can't read people's.

Speaker 2 There's still a mystery element.

Speaker 1 You can get close.

Speaker 1 The more you interact with somebody, the more you actually care and are good at pattern recognition and pick up on patterns in their behavior and how they think, you can get better at it, especially within specific relationships.

Speaker 1 But you still don't know perfectly what Monica's thinking all the time. I think what's interesting and worth following up on that thought is: I actually think you probably could always predict,

Speaker 1 but you're often missing a lot of the context. Yes.
You don't know what happened. This is the first example that we get to in your book.

Speaker 1 You know your sister really well, but you don't know if when she stopped at the gas station, someone called her a whore.

Speaker 1 You know everything else you've observed, but that thing is still floating around. So I do think if you did know all the details, you would be in still the high 90s.

Speaker 1 It's just we don't really know all the details. Exactly right.
Okay, so in graduate school, you start focusing on negotiation

Speaker 1 and emotions. Yeah, why people's behaviors impacted by their feelings.
Yeah. So what caught your attention?

Speaker 1 I realized that there was a lot of research in clinical psychology about anxiety and the sort of high-level anxiety that requires medication or therapy. And I was like, you know what, though?

Speaker 1 Everybody's feeling anxious a lot of the time. And it's influencing how they're walking through the world, all of the decisions they're making, all of these choices, how they talk to other people.

Speaker 1 I wonder if there's a way that we can study anxiety in that way. That's sort of outside the sphere of clinical psych as a pathology that needs diagnosis, which is obviously so important.

Speaker 1 But what about the sort of lower grade normal anxiety that most people are feeling a lot of the time?

Speaker 1 Let's figure out how that's influencing the choices that they're making as they go through their day. Negotiation was one of the places that we looked, but we also looked at advice.

Speaker 1 When do you seek advice? When do you take advice? Who do you seek it from? Who do you seek it from? Do you feel like you have to listen to it?

Speaker 2 Dax doesn't seek advice from anyone. No, I do.

Speaker 1 But remember, I said I seek the advice that I think I'm going to give.

Speaker 2 Oh, right.

Speaker 1 We did talk about confirming. If I want to indulge in this bad behavior, I call a person I know who regularly indulges in that and is not going to say, you know, better.

Speaker 1 And then when I actually want to change, I call Tom Hans.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you end up at Harvard teaching negotiation and you start doing a lot of clinical work and experiments. Yes.
And it definitely expands out. I have a list of fun things.

Speaker 1 And negotiation has been this course that's been taught at every business school and law school for a long time now. It's a great course.

Speaker 1 The students show up, they take on these roles and they pretend to be, you know, the manager of a factory and you have to negotiate all this stuff. It's informative.
It's great.

Speaker 1 As I was teaching it, though, a couple things occurred to me. One, our students at Harvard are already very strategic people.

Speaker 1 And I was like, do I need to be teaching people who are already quite strategic to be even more hard driving? Does that align with my values? That's question number one.

Speaker 1 Number two, so many of the exercises were like, well, you have to negotiate for a car or you're going to go buy a house or you're going to negotiate a merger or a really big deal at work.

Speaker 1 I was like, I'm not grown up and I don't really have those conversations very often. Maybe once every two months.

Speaker 1 But you know what I do all the time is talk to people in conversations that on their surface should be easy. And then at moments, I'm like, ooh, this is maybe not as easy or as fun as it should be.

Speaker 1 So, my sort of aperture of what I was getting curious about and thinking about how to help people was sort of widening.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you did experiments on speed dating, parole hearings, doctor-patient interactions, negotiations, sales calls, instant messaging, face-to-face chin wags between strangers.

Speaker 2 What's that?

Speaker 1 I love that word. Chin wag is literally your chin just.

Speaker 1 It's a synonym for talking. Oh,

Speaker 1 I got your chin wagon.

Speaker 1 That's what you do here.

Speaker 1 True. You could put all of those under the umbrella of negotiating, right? True.

Speaker 1 And I think the things that would be normally studied or you'd be drawn to is all the things you listed are quantifiable. Like I want this amount.
They're offering this amount.

Speaker 1 The outcome's measurable. But in a romantic relationship, you get into these gradients of leverage and control and power.
Those are not easy to quantify and measure the outcome of.

Speaker 1 I remember very vividly back when I was teaching the negotiation course, I had a student raise her hand one day and she was like, so is this just about like solving a math problem?

Speaker 1 Because in the way that those exercises were set up and the way that we think about negotiating, it sort of is because it's all these things that are quantifiable.

Speaker 1 You put numbers on what you care about and then you try and sort of trade on differences to expand the size of the pie and then claim the largest part of it.

Speaker 1 And as a psychologist, it made me deeply uncomfortable. Not everything is quantifiable.
So much about life and about how we feel towards each other is emotional and trust and fun and love.

Speaker 1 And I want to keep this private and just felt like we were missing a big piece.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I wrote down, you said, while strategic and technical skills can help people get ahead in many ways, being a successful person is about relationships and relationships are about talking.

Speaker 1 And I guess I wonder, did you kind of feel like the previous work in communication and negotiation felt maybe a little too calculated or manipulative?

Speaker 1 Even when I have people on that will be like, how to talk to the right or how to talk to the left?

Speaker 1 I'm like, the underbelly still feels like the ultimate goal is to get someone to believe the things you do, which I think fundamentally I'm against.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and missing a huge part of what it means to be the most human we can be. And we love each other and want to have fun together.
And it's like not about just sort of transactional.

Speaker 1 How can I get as much information out of you? How can I tell you the most amount of information? Even now, a lot of economists focus very narrowly on information exchange.

Speaker 1 Are we exchanging accurate information? But so much of the social world is not about information exchange at all. We're just looking to fill time.

Speaker 1 We're looking to conceal information and maintain privacy. We just don't want to feel awkward around other people.
We want to have fun. We want to learn from each other.

Speaker 1 I felt like that whole bit needed more of a focus. So you took all these conclusions and then you wove it into a class you called Talk, How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life.

Speaker 1 I don't know where you got that but what a stroke of genius that is how to talk gooder in business and life but it became hugely popular it's a heavily impacted class at Harvard and you've taught a thousand students over the last four years you were invited to be a consultant to the Celtics wow

Speaker 1 dang girl mid-range jump shots now

Speaker 1 circles back yeah talk is a practical guide to having better conversations in a variety of settings. Work, parenting, dating, trying to make connection.

Speaker 1 And so, my first question is: do you think we underestimate the complexity of conversations? I think we all just are like, yeah, conversations, I know how to have them. I'm having them all day long.

Speaker 1 Kinwack. I might underestimate actually what an abstract and complicated thing a conversation is, just on the surface.
I mean, we start learning to talk to each other when we're one, one and a half.

Speaker 1 You're a toddler. You do it every day of your life with an enormous number of people, very diverse range of conversation partners.

Speaker 1 So by the time you get to be a teenager and then an adult, it's second nature to you. It feels like you should be an expert and maybe you are an expert.

Speaker 1 You see other people who are seemingly amazing at it and you're like, wow. And then you feel bad if you feel like you're not.
It also has the illusion of being innate, which it's not. Right.

Speaker 1 It's like reading. It's this very abstract thing.
thing. I'm making a bunch of noises to transfer the thoughts I have inside of my brain internally, into your your brain internally.

Speaker 1 And you're going to respond in a way that you'll transfer your thoughts. That is highly complicated.
When you look under the hood of what's going on during conversation, it is remarkably complex.

Speaker 1 You get to this point of acceptance where you're like, of course, there's going to be moments of awkwardness.

Speaker 1 Of course, we're going to forget to say stuff that we meant to say or say things that we regret or interrupt people or have all these little collisions because it's not second nature.

Speaker 1 And watching children learn to do it, reading or talking opens your eyes to how this is not natural.

Speaker 1 This is not innate it's hard to learn to read it takes years to really get good at reading it takes even longer to learn how to be a good conversationalist and we get to adulthood and we're still not that great right so i guess in just thinking it's innate you might not think that it's something that you could approach mindfully with a tactic i like that you say people will put 20 minutes into planning their outfit to go meet someone.

Speaker 1 Everybody. And they'll put zero thought into when I arrive.
What will I talk about? What topics do I bring up? You don't give it any thought.

Speaker 1 Think about how much time you spend picking out your outfit, making a reservation at the restaurant, buying your makeup, getting your hair done.

Speaker 1 And literally during all of that, you could be thinking, what are two things we could talk about once we're together? But most people don't do that. Right.

Speaker 1 You just take for granted, it'll just happen. It'll flow.
And then the day

Speaker 1 will suck.

Speaker 2 Right. Well, yes.
But also, do you think people might feel like that's contrived?

Speaker 1 I know people think it's contrived. So we've asked people, there's tremendous aversion to this idea of forethought,

Speaker 1 particularly for people that you know really well. And it goes back to this assumption or this hope that it's second nature.
You have this feeling that conversation should feel natural.

Speaker 1 You say it's the myth of naturalness. It's the myth of naturalness.

Speaker 1 It should feel spontaneous and invented on the spot and a little bit magical that you just land on topics that are fun to talk about and there's never going to be a lull and you're going to just know where to go.

Speaker 1 And we feel that way even more with people that we know really well and love.

Speaker 1 We're like, oh, it'll just come, which is maybe true a little bit more when you know somebody well compared to like your work colleague that you don't like.

Speaker 1 But in all of the cases, whether you're reverse or not, when you actually have people plan topics ahead of time, their conversations are measurably better.

Speaker 1 Well, I love that you're contrasting it with the other amounts of effort you put in. No one's thinking like, well, I'll just naturally look good.
And if I don't naturally look good, it's not a fit.

Speaker 1 Or I'll naturally arrive there. No, none of these things are going to happen.
So, would you give me a little historical context for conversation, how we thought of conversation, how it's evolved?

Speaker 1 I was kind of fascinated with the power dynamic of a monarchy and how that affected things. How has our idea of a conversation evolved?

Speaker 1 We actually know very little about when humans evolve the ability to have dialogue and talk to each other. Estimates vary quite widely.
There are signs in the archaeological record.

Speaker 1 The fossil of jewelry is a sign that they must have learned to talk by this point because they had to pass that knowledge down across generations in order for it to be trapped in the archaeological record.

Speaker 1 Or they even do these super fascinating things.

Speaker 1 Well, yes, they'll find a necklace of fox teeth and then they'll do the actual math of how long it would take to procure that many teeth and then string it and all the work that would be involved.

Speaker 1 And what you have to acknowledge about this necklace is that it was a group effort. Exactly.

Speaker 1 And then they make hypotheses about, well, would they have been able to collaborate on this if they hadn't yet learned to actually talk to each other, communicate and stuff?

Speaker 1 You have to be able to tell them, here's what we're making and we're gathering teeth because we're going to make this.

Speaker 1 Here's the project. Yeah.
Yeah. Someone have to lay out a game plan.
That's how we're trying to figure out when did humans evolve this ability. Then you fast forward.

Speaker 1 The book starts in the 1700s when there were all of these monarchies in Europe whose kings and queens told people how to talk to each other.

Speaker 1 Here are the people who are allowed to talk to each other at these times, and these are the topics, and here are all the compliments you have to say about me. Yeah.
Right? That was it.

Speaker 1 And then around the French Revolution and right after in the Enlightenment and during what was called the Age of Conversation, people started to realize, oh, we can get together and talk about what we want to talk about.

Speaker 1 And it was in these fancy salons in Paris and it was happening all over Europe. And so the book zooms in on Immanuel Kant, who is this famous philosopher.
Yes, we love Kant.

Speaker 1 And he lived a very fascinating, very regimented life. Most of his life, he would get up and he would go for his walk at a specific time.
He would sit down and do his work at a specific time.

Speaker 1 They called him the Koenigsberg clock.

Speaker 1 Very regimented guy. He was not wealthy until late in his life when he was finally able to afford a home of his own.
He couldn't even get a professorship, blew my mind.

Speaker 1 He lived at boarding houses and he was like a sub-teacher, basically. He's sub-teacher and he would have dinner in these rowdy pubs at night.

Speaker 1 And as this fancy, very smart philosopher, he he would get really annoyed. He's like, this is boring.
I want to talk to smart people about my smart ideas.

Speaker 1 So finally, when he was able to get his own house, he started hosting these dinner parties, which became very well known. They were highly coveted invitations to Kant's house for these dinner parties.

Speaker 1 What I found so fascinating to read about and Lauren is that his dinner parties had all these rules of conversation. So he almost was kind of acting like this little king.
in his kingdom.

Speaker 1 And his rules were, we're going to talk about specific topics at the beginning, we're going to talk about specific topics in the middle. Then we're gonna joke at the end.

Speaker 1 We're gonna have food and wine that mirrors each of the phases of the meal. I want to go to this.

Speaker 1 He curated the guest list, so you wouldn't have five physicians. You'd have a physician.
You'd have a clergyman. Yeah.
So it was going to be an eclectic group.

Speaker 1 There were some grounders, like no interrupting, no monologuing. No arguing.
So surprisingly, he didn't like debate.

Speaker 1 He didn't really like when people argued about stuff, especially about the French Revolution.

Speaker 1 He was like, this is for us to have fun and learn from each other and it should feel delightful the whole time. Take the ideas or leave the ideas.
You don't have to defeat them. Exactly.

Speaker 1 And so that was sort of the beginning of it. During the age of conversation, this idea was cropping up all over Europe.

Speaker 1 There were all these philosophers who were pontificating about what it meant to have good, sparkling conversation.

Speaker 1 It was sort of subversive because it was the first time that they weren't just doing what the king or queen told them to do.

Speaker 1 And then the Industrial Revolution happened and people started mixing a lot more. We're not just talking about highfalutin philosophers getting their fancy friends together.

Speaker 1 People are going everywhere all the time. You never know who you're going to run into in all classes and all status.
So we need to now figure out what are we talking about? How are we talking?

Speaker 1 What are the new rules of conversation? Well, what you're first describing is that mixing in the class is hugely impacted by the move from rural life to city life.

Speaker 1 You live within a stone's throw of the rich person. And you're going to see them on the road as you're walking past, and you're allowed to greet each other.
If you say hi, what are you going to say?

Speaker 1 Can you even tell who's who anymore? Right. Yeah.
And I love that. The boundaries really fell apart.
So your...

Speaker 1 framing of this is to think of conversation in terms of a coordinated game, which you take from game theory. Tell me what a coordinated game is.
Yes.

Speaker 1 So fast forward, so all of this mixing is happening. The big experiment in democracy is happening in America.
All the Europeans think that Americans are no good at conversation.

Speaker 1 We're talking about ourselves all the time. We spit while they're talking.
I mean, there's all kinds of stereotypes developing.

Speaker 1 Fast forward a bit more in the mid-1900s, middle of the 20th century, game theory appears. So these are economists and game theorists like John Nash from A Beautiful Mind, the movie.

Speaker 1 Janush von Neumann. Yes, Morgan Stern, Thomas Schelling.
Now, they studied what they called coordination games, which were really simple, but at the time they were really hot and flashy.

Speaker 1 So it would be be like the game of chicken is a coordination game. Any choice two or more people are making independently that they can't talk to each other.

Speaker 1 So like in a game of chicken, you're coming towards each other. You both have to choose, am I going to go right? Am I going to go left? But you can't talk about it.

Speaker 1 If you coordinate, you pass successfully. Motorcycles or sit-doos or whatever you're on.
You're horses with jowls. Yes, exactly.
If you miscoordinate, you collide. That's a simple one.

Speaker 1 There are non-cooperative coordination games like the Prisoner's Dilemma. Do you know the Prisoner's Dilemma? The Stanford Prison? No.
No, that's different.

Speaker 1 That's the Stanford Prison Experiment where they had Milgram.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, I did it.

Speaker 1 Wow, you're good. I've been trying to remember who did the Stanford Prison experiment.
And I told her I don't care.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I said I'm going to commit this to memory, and I did it.

Speaker 1 You did it. I thought you just had an electric shock just now.

Speaker 1 Milgram. That's how I react to the name, too.
Yes, Milgram did the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Shocks. No.
No.

Speaker 1 The shock we just learned about is different. That was in England.
That was a different guy. I thought Milgram did shocks, or is it Milgram that did shocks? Yeah, yeah, Philip Zimbardo did.

Speaker 1 Zimbardo did this.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh my god.
You flipped him.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh my god, hoisted by your own patchati.
And you were celebrating, and I congratulated you. This is wonderful.

Speaker 1 What a horrible conversation. You arrived.
Okay, so Zimbarno did

Speaker 1 Milgram is like the shock. Milgram.
Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm never going to meet. I'm going to quiz you at the end.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

Speaker 1 If you dare,

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Speaker 1 We are supported by Audible. You know, I spend a lot of time listening.
It's literally my job. But when I'm not recording the show, I'm constantly consuming audio content.

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Speaker 1 Okay, sorry. So, yours is separate from all of us.
Different. Forget about Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment.
Forget about the shocks.

Speaker 1 So the prisoner's dilemma is a coordination game that people were thinking about.

Speaker 1 You imagine there's two people being questioned in separate rooms, interrogated about a crime, and they both face a choice and they can't talk to each other about it to either stay quiet or snitch.

Speaker 1 Okay. If they both stay quiet, they're going to go to jail, but not for very long.
If they both snitch, they both go to jail for much longer.

Speaker 1 So it seems simple that you should stay quiet, except if you snitch and the other guy stays quiet, you walk free. Yeah, this is great.
Everybody is tempted to betray.

Speaker 1 And so this is a non-cooperative coordination game because you're incentivized to not cooperate.

Speaker 2 Oh, interesting.

Speaker 1 You are also incentivized to cooperate. That's what makes it hard.

Speaker 2 The biggest reward is to walk free.

Speaker 1 I'm trying to measure it in a utilitarian way. I feel like both people with a reduced sentence is still

Speaker 1 better.

Speaker 1 In theory logically but if you're the person you start to get the sense why these games are interesting to people because then you can change all kinds of stuff who are you imagining in the other room what's your relationship with them what do you know about the person if you did this game 10 times in a row based on their prior behavior what are you doing the last russians have a weird outcome in this game tell me i wish i could remember the source because it'll just sound like xenophobia but yet one of these many books that has talked about the prison experiment talked about how russians asymmetrically will punish even when it costs them.

Speaker 1 These games have been studied so much that I'm sure there are lots of cross-cultural findings about how Germans play and how everyone plays.

Speaker 1 So economists and game theorists were kind of obsessed with these coordination games.

Speaker 1 Now fast forward to now, we have whole fields that have been studying social psychology, communication, all of this stuff.

Speaker 1 And what I realized is even though we have these whole fields that are about interpersonal interaction, not a lot of people had gone to the trouble of actually recording real people talking to real people at very large scale.

Speaker 1 The reason they hadn't is because we needed new technology to do it. Right.
You couldn't have film cameras running, although your hometown would love it. Quite would still be thriving.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we needed a digital revolution. We needed natural language processing and machine learning to help us analyze tons of transcripts at once.
We just weren't ready to do it until very recently.

Speaker 1 But as we were sort of like, oh, we should do that. We should record tons of conversations and analyze them.
I also realized

Speaker 1 is just like those coordination games that the game theorists were studying back in the 1950s, like Thomas Schelling.

Speaker 1 He has a famous one where he asked people, if you had to meet up with people at noon tomorrow in New York City, where would you go? I know what the answer to this is.

Speaker 2 Is it a riddle or is it just a factor?

Speaker 1 It's just a coordination game.

Speaker 1 You can't talk about it. And everybody writes down their answer.
I unfortunately know too much about it. Let's pick LA.
Let's do it. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 So if you had to meet up with Monica tomorrow, somewhere in LA at noon, think in your mind where you would go.

Speaker 1 Don't stop here. It can't be here.
Right. Monica, what's your answer? Cara.
Yeah, same. Oh, the bar at Cara? Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's exactly what I thought.

Speaker 2 Is that just because we know

Speaker 1 the New York one, a lot of people will say the Empire State Building. It's a landmark.
Let's say the Brooklyn Bridge. But there is a right answer.

Speaker 1 The most frequent one that people say is Grand Central Central Station. Everyone will be arriving.
Yeah, so there is a kind of a high probability. Why? That's kind of a riddle.

Speaker 1 It's kind of a riddle that Thomas Schelling called them focal points. It's because it's stuff that your mind goes to quickly that you think other people are going to do.
Yeah, high probability.

Speaker 1 The first thing you think of when you think of New York, I'll go there. Yeah.
Or here. That's a focal point for you in your shared reality and your relationship that helps you coordinate.

Speaker 1 So what we realized about conversation is it's just like these coordination games, except every little moment is like a coordination game when you're trying to decide what are we going to talk about next how are we going to talk about it what are they excited for me to ask where should we go next requires this level of shared reality these focal points and this mind reading but it's so much more than just one choice do you stay quiet or snitch It's like, and now and now and now and now.

Speaker 1 And you have to make those choices relentlessly. It's almost incredible we can communicate.
I agree. It is incredible.
That's what linguists will tell you.

Speaker 1 Almost everyone can relate to some social anxiety, the fear of small talk, being in an elevator. And that is all present.
But in general, it goes shockingly well.

Speaker 1 It's the anomaly you hear two people screaming at each other on the sidewalk. And even when they're screaming at each other, they're taking turns.
They're listening to each other.

Speaker 1 There is some information being exchanged that they may get the opportunity to rehash later. Yeah, exactly.
Still amazing that we are able to do this.

Speaker 1 And when you look at actual transcripts between real people, whether they're shouting at each other or not, you start to realize, oh, it is a train wreck. We're interrupting each other all the time.

Speaker 1 We're not actually listening. We're having half-finished thoughts.
We get excited about a thing and then we get excited about another thing. You said 24%

Speaker 1 of the time your mind is wandering.

Speaker 1 And I think that's an underestimate because as a proud member of the recent legion of middle-aged people who have been diagnosed with ADHD, so this was my research and it really hit home.

Speaker 1 It was very validating. So there was previous research showing that our brains are not built to focus on one thing.
Our resting state is mind wandering outside of conversation.

Speaker 1 In our research, we looked at it in conversation. So we interrupted people every five minutes and we were like, were you just listening to your partner? Were you just listening to your partner?

Speaker 1 Asking them to self-report. Which is going to be, I think, skewed low.
It is way skewed low because people know that it's not polite to say I wasn't listening.

Speaker 1 Or they're not sure if they were listening because they weren't listening.

Speaker 2 They probably thought, oh, of course I was listening, but not really. They probably couldn't repeat.

Speaker 1 Or you think you're doing both things. Yeah, I'm listening and I'm wandering.
Which is often true.

Speaker 1 So I think this 24% number, one, is staggeringly high and comforting to realize. And two, probably a huge underestimate of what's really happening.

Speaker 1 This is why Yuval was saying that an AI companion might actually be wonderful because they actually won't be thinking about anything but you and they have no agenda to promote their own.

Speaker 1 I'm so curious and excited to see what happens with it, but you just put your finger on exactly the thing that as a teacher, coach, scholar of conversation, this is what's been on my mind about it, which is what makes someone a good conversationalist is relentlessly trying to focus on the other person and what the other person needs.

Speaker 1 And AI, if you're talking to a chat bot, they don't have any of their own sincere needs. They are only there to serve your needs.

Speaker 1 And what I worry about is that the more we interact with an entity like that, a non-human entity that's just there to serve you, and it's so good at serving you. Right.
It's amazing at serving you.

Speaker 1 A narcissist machine. Exactly.

Speaker 1 is training us to when we turn to an actual human forget that the mission is the complete opposite really so true yeah i think A, it's bad muscle memory for future conversations, but I actually don't even think it'll be appealing.

Speaker 1 Now, it will be appealing to people who are objectly lonely. Yeah.
The reward of conversation is the

Speaker 1 primate social interaction and the approval and the status and the connection and all the web of what being a social primate is.

Speaker 1 So having it within and out of an object doesn't really get you what you're after. I'm so curious to start studying who is this appealing to? Who is enjoying it and why?

Speaker 2 There will be no stakes in that conversation with an AI. There's always stakes between any real one-on-one relationship that come up.

Speaker 1 You're going on a journey through someone else's mind. Yes.

Speaker 1 I was just telling Monica when I'm using the AI to make an image, I actually had to break myself of all my habits I have when dealing with people.

Speaker 1 And when I was dealing with the AI, the first time it would generate the image, I would go, great. Literally, take the time to say this to the AI.
Great job. Really good start.

Speaker 1 I think where we could do better, and I did this four or five times. I was like, oh, I don't have to do any of this.
I can treat it like a fucking slave.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but then what if you lost that skill?

Speaker 1 I know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's like, how often am I doing that? Where then I talk to a human like that? Yeah. Just as obviously my muscle memory made me talk to a computer like that, which is insane if you think about it.

Speaker 1 It's lovely. Good job, little guys.

Speaker 1 You're a good boy. They want to be real boys anyway.

Speaker 2 This is a ding, ding, ding, because I was just talking about this with one of our friends. She has somebody in her life who doesn't have a lot of friends and struggles with that.

Speaker 2 And I was like, well, it would be great if there was a robot friend.

Speaker 2 This person has other outlets and is not fully reliant on her and can go to dinner with this robot and you can program it to have the type of conversation you want.

Speaker 2 And yes, it sounds scary, but it's unfair because we're good at making friends.

Speaker 1 Yes, I was going to say, I'm saying that, and that's a luxury because I have real people in my life and I'm not terribly lonely. And I think it'll be more appealing.

Speaker 1 My prediction for what'll make it work is they're actually going to have to build in tension. It has to care about things.
That's what's going to help it simulate a real person.

Speaker 1 Those desires will never be sincere, but you can tell it to pretend to care about it. It needs the ability to get pissed off at you and be cold to you for it to get complicated.

Speaker 1 And I mean, ideally not give you what you need all the time. It's like when they talk about building the sim as a hedonic treadmill, it won't work.

Speaker 1 Like if you have a simulation for humans to live in, just getting everything they want all day long will be a failed simulation.

Speaker 1 What I worry about is people who are already lonely probably don't love conversation. Maybe they're not as good at it, or maybe they're just more shy.
And then they do find AI particularly rewarding.

Speaker 1 There are so many underserved populations or vulnerable populations why that would be the case.

Speaker 1 It's like a little bit of a downward spiral, then, where it's actually then ruining your muscle memory for how to actually engage with real people.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you lay out an architecture in the book to improve conversation. I do.
And it's conveniently got an acronym, which is talk.

Speaker 1 So we have topics.

Speaker 2 Did you backronym that?

Speaker 1 What does that mean? We just learned that. Oh my gosh,

Speaker 1 no, I am. Each means this is like Milgram.

Speaker 1 Does it mean you back into it? Yes. You're out past your skis a lot.

Speaker 1 I feel really bald.

Speaker 1 Milgram.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But okay, did you have talk and then you're like, I'm going to figure out.

Speaker 1 I honestly don't really remember the deductive versus inductive process of it.

Speaker 1 What I do remember are the things that struck me as the most helpful and surprising as we were learning them from our research.

Speaker 1 And then I was able to craft them into a very logical item framework that builds in complexity over time.

Speaker 1 focuses on the informational transactional things we need to do in conversation and the emotional relational stuff.

Speaker 1 It's in a way quite ambitious because it's trying to encapsulate the full landscape of what we're trying to do in the social world. But talk does stand for topics, asking, levity, kindness.

Speaker 1 So let's start with topics. You claim small talk isn't the enemy and I have to push back on that.
I talk for a living. I enjoy it so much, but having to talk about the weather.
Fucking weather.

Speaker 1 But this is the thing. You don't do small talk.
You move past it immediately. That's why people like listening to you.
It's why people like talking to you is you don't get trapped in small talk world.

Speaker 1 So tell me why it's not bad. Why should we embrace it? So many things about the way that we talk to each other are deeply ingrained social rituals.
Small talk among them.

Speaker 1 you have to start at small talk. If you are meeting someone for the very first time, we have to start somewhere.
And it has to be a topic that anybody could talk about easily.

Speaker 1 It's this well-worn place that you're searching, ideally move away from towards something more personalized, more interesting, more exciting. The goal would be to chase the energy away from it.

Speaker 1 The problem isn't with the small talk itself, but people get trapped there too long. Yeah, they linger and it starts to feel dutiful and awful and meaningless and shallow.

Speaker 1 And that's what everybody dreads. And this is where we get into what we talked about, having a bit of a game plan before you end up.
Places.

Speaker 1 In fact, you talk about the outcome of dates for a second date is kind of measurable if you go in with a bit of a game plan. So one of the techniques is switching topics frequently.

Speaker 1 You got to come with some in the holster, I guess. Actually, we saw this in the dating data.
One of the killers of conversation, dating or otherwise, are long pauses.

Speaker 1 Long pauses happen when you've stayed too long on something that you don't have anything left to say. Wow.

Speaker 1 People start repeating things they've already said about it. They start laughing uncomfortably.
The pauses get longer. You got to go somewhere else.
Yeah. By the way, just can we take a second?

Speaker 1 Like, that's one of the worst feelings.

Speaker 1 Just even you describing it. Mira neuron.
And I think we all do, and that's why people are like, fuck it, I'll just be longly. It's this little panicky feeling.

Speaker 1 Some people feel a great sense of responsibility in those moments to be the one to come up with the next thing. I think a lot of introverts are sort of like, it's not my job, but I'm hating this.

Speaker 1 Right. I'm not going to fix it, but I feel it.
This is the worst. Just having this mindset shift of before you even get to that panicky lull type of thing, move.

Speaker 1 Be more assertive about going to somewhere else. Don't be afraid to just drop a non-sequitur.
Oh, yeah. People go right with you.
That's preferred to this long pause. Of course.

Speaker 1 I watched this amazing movie last night on the airplane. Which one? It was called We Live in Time.
That sounds familiar. It's with Florence Pugh and Andrew Barb.
Does that feel right?

Speaker 2 Isn't it supposed to be so sad?

Speaker 1 I sobbed the whole way here. But you know, there's been social science work on this on an airplane.

Speaker 2 It's worse.

Speaker 1 You have a heightened sense of vulnerability. I was alone and my husband wasn't there.
The whole thing. Your kids were going to miss you.

Speaker 2 Also, this movie is supposed to be so sad.

Speaker 1 It was amazing.

Speaker 1 I love this movie. We're going to get back to the movie, but the reason I raise it is because I did the thing we were talking about.
I was.

Speaker 2 I was about to say, I think you're doing it.

Speaker 1 I did the thing where you just start talking about something else and everybody goes with you, you guys. It's fun.
Wow, you knew that? Monica knew. She was like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 You've been saying you know a lot of stuff that you don't actually know. So I feel like this is continuing the pattern you've already.
Hi, Warl.

Speaker 1 I knew it. I knew it.
Then why'd you participate? Because I thought it'd be rude not to, because I'm a good conversationalist.

Speaker 1 But if you just start talking about something else. I feel betrayed.

Speaker 1 Yeah, be careful who you're talking about. I'm feeling manipulative.
Now I don't trust you. Then I'm scared.
Now I'm going to be dominant.

Speaker 1 But back to the movie for real. It's so good.

Speaker 1 It's so good. I sob so much.
Okay, asking questions. This makes sense.
I just want to give a personal anecdote. And there's a big shout out to Scotty Johnson.

Speaker 1 So I met this boy early into LA, and everywhere we went, every single girl was in love with him. A, he was objectively cuter than all of us, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 But it was happening with guys and with girls and everyone. At first, I just chalked it up to he's magic.
You can't really strive for that. You're magic or you're not.

Speaker 1 But at some point, I was like, this guy asks more questions than anyone I've ever met in my life. And I really made a mental note.

Speaker 1 Oh, I want to move through the world a lot more like Scotty, and I've got to really up my game on asking questions. It's so powerful.
Let me ask about Scotty. Now, I know you just did that.

Speaker 1 No, I didn't even do it on purpose.

Speaker 2 That one wasn't.

Speaker 1 And I knew it.

Speaker 1 Monica's with me.

Speaker 1 Did he ask particularly good questions or was he just asking really anything? He had this ability to seem crazy interested in anything. And he probably was.
Yeah, by the way, this is an AA thing.

Speaker 1 Acting your way into thinking different versus thinking your way into acting different.

Speaker 1 Something could feel fraudulent to you on the surface, but you might be shocked with repetition how genuine it gets.

Speaker 1 This is a debate that we have in my class all the time because these students are coming to this class on conversation.

Speaker 1 I'm teaching them about the types of behaviors that tend to work, and then they try them with intentionality. And of course, through the whole thing, they're thinking, but isn't this manipulative?

Speaker 1 If I do this with intentionality and knowing that I'm doing it, doesn't that make it by definition inauthentic in some way? Right.

Speaker 1 What's unique about conversation is maybe for a fleeting second and you think to yourself, I should ask a question now, and then you do. In that moment, you're sort of nudging yourself to do it.

Speaker 1 But everything that comes after that is sincere. I'll also add it's a reward center activity in that what'll shock you is people are more interesting than you thought they were.

Speaker 1 You can only discover that through asking them questions because they themselves aren't great at remembering the most exciting detail of their life to share with you at that moment, but you could inadvertently lead them.

Speaker 1 Yes, at first you're doing it in a way that maybe is calculated, but then you're rewarded for it. And questions have that beautiful power.

Speaker 1 You get that reward almost instantly because they're going to tell you stuff. You're going to see what is interesting in their answer and then you can keep asking more.

Speaker 1 In my class, we do an exercise called Neverending Follow-ups. Ooh.
It would be a pair like you. One person is the never-ending question asker.
The other person's just answering.

Speaker 1 And every time Monica talks, she has to end by asking a follow-up question. Oh, wow.
And it sounds so extreme, but the experience of it is like Scotty. The experience of it is magic.

Speaker 1 You immediately move away from small talk. You start learning so much about the other person.

Speaker 1 It's funny what a nugget of wisdom improv artists stumbled upon, because you even reference it in your book. Using the improv rule of yes and, not no.
Should we play this game? I feel like we should.

Speaker 1 I'm nervous.

Speaker 1 I'll be the, do you want to play?

Speaker 2 Yeah, can you? Yeah. So you're going to ask me questions.

Speaker 1 Where did you get that sweatshirt?

Speaker 2 Oh, I got it at Sarah Henler's studio. It's vintage.
Do you go there a lot? The first time I've ever been was yes, should I play?

Speaker 1 Oh, what took you so long to check it out?

Speaker 2 I guess I'm just busy. I'm busy.

Speaker 1 What are you busy doing?

Speaker 2 I work a lot. I have a busy job.

Speaker 1 What do you do?

Speaker 2 Have you heard a podcast? Oh, Oh, I'm not supposed to.

Speaker 1 That's where it ends.

Speaker 1 I got to go.

Speaker 1 Fuck this. You're on your own, Toots.

Speaker 1 I don't like that sweater. Hey!

Speaker 2 Yeah, you did a good job.

Speaker 1 Thank you. But I felt scared.
Do you want to try it?

Speaker 1 You guys, what are you doing?

Speaker 1 He started playing a character. You started asking questions you already knew the answer to.

Speaker 1 So part of this that matters is that you should do it as yourself. Well, I knew the answers to what she did for, but I didn't know that was her first time.

Speaker 2 You didn't know where I got my sweater.

Speaker 1 And I don't know why it took you so long. I would have thought you've been there a dozen times.
You learned a lot very quickly. That's true.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I guess you didn't learn that I was busy, but

Speaker 2 because you already know that.

Speaker 1 We got to reverse it. I'm so scared.
Okay, what should I ask?

Speaker 2 Well, I want to ask a serious question. Okay.

Speaker 1 Can I? Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're working on a personal project. It's been taxing, and I want to know how you're doing.

Speaker 1 I'm still in the middle of it, so I don't know how I'm doing.

Speaker 2 If you do a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most relief and one being agony, that's a weird scale.

Speaker 1 I would say four.

Speaker 2 And are you doing anything to help balance it out? Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm cutting my hair compulsively and I'm exercising compulsively and I'm trying not to blow my nose, which is new.

Speaker 2 Can you tell me more about

Speaker 2 why you stopped blowing your nose?

Speaker 1 I got convinced that I don't actually have allergies, that I've just injured my nose from blowing it so hard, and then it's sending white blood cells to repair it.

Speaker 1 And then that is snot that I have to then blow really hard to get out. And then I'm just caught in this endless pattern of damaging and repairing.
And I feel like I just have to stop for it to end.

Speaker 2 Are you an addict?

Speaker 1 Oh, like a motherfucker.

Speaker 1 That tracks.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 But I did know some of the ants.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's hard.

Speaker 2 We talk a lot.

Speaker 1 Where did you get your pants? I got these at a local store near where I live. Okay.
Do you notice what all the other moms are doing?

Speaker 1 And do you feel like you pick up on like, I'm not sure what pants I'm supposed to be wearing, but somehow everyone knows. How do you pay attention to that? I love fashion.

Speaker 1 I actually talk about this with some of my mom friends.

Speaker 1 As like a fashionista gets older, you get fewer and fewer touch points with people who are actually fashionable, which is alarming because you're like, oh no, I feel myself getting out of touch.

Speaker 1 And do you have to factor in your age? Yes. So I have hundreds of students who are in their 20s.
So I get to observe that.

Speaker 1 I have fancy colleagues who are all ages and flavors of style. I then have all my community friends, cool parents, and then they're social media.

Speaker 1 So I'm like, am I following the right influencer accounts? Am I getting the right ads? Calculus for women deciding what to wear in different contexts they find themselves in is so complicated.

Speaker 1 Okay, so here's a calculated question I would ask. And I realize how I operate in thinking of this question, which is, I would go if you taking too big of a swing.
Oh, I try not to.

Speaker 1 So, this is part of one of my goals. I used to go much harder when I was in my 20s.
I wanted to get noticed. I wanted to be different.
I wanted to be the one sort of setting the trend.

Speaker 1 As I've gotten older, I think it's more about not taking too big of a swing. I don't like that feeling.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you haven't like arrived at a restaurant and been like, oh boy, I went too young with this.

Speaker 1 No, I played a little safer, I would say. Even today, I was going to wear like a hot pink sweater.
And at the last second, what if they're cute? Black. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Wait, you said you were afraid to ask that?

Speaker 1 No, no, no. So I know that the kind of questions I ask, I want to get to a time you got embarrassed.
Oh,

Speaker 1 because that's vulnerable. Well, you were doing it.

Speaker 1 I didn't even realize it. You weren't doing it to me.
You thought this was a random conversation. You were just asking me.
That's so fun.

Speaker 1 But I want to get to the point, because I think what's very bonding in a fast pass is as soon as we can get vulnerable. So if I can get to the point where you went too far.

Speaker 1 This is something I am always working on in myself about conversation is more quickly revealing my vulnerability, my mistakes, my failures, my moments of embarrassment and shame.

Speaker 1 I'm so hungry to get it out of other people

Speaker 1 and probably too slow to share it with others. To me, it's such a fast pass like, oh, great.
We're both now laughing at the time I tried to wear combat boots and you tried to wear this.

Speaker 1 We've just broken through a layer and now I can kind of live.

Speaker 2 I have that too, but sometimes it can backfire in a dating. I mean, even the question I asked you was immediately vulnerable.

Speaker 2 I do tend to do that even on early dates because I want to know for myself what's going on with this person. How introspective are they? How interesting are they?

Speaker 2 And so I'm like, tell me about your trauma.

Speaker 1 And what do you think?

Speaker 1 How do they respond that you think that's not good? They're guarded. They feel threatened.

Speaker 2 They often do it. And that's lovely.
But then if I then don't want to go on another date,

Speaker 1 I know the guilty

Speaker 2 because I've now put them in a position to be very vulnerable and maybe to make them feel worse because you actually know them. Well, that's another bad thing, but I feel sort of manipulative.

Speaker 2 I put you in a position to be vulnerable. You were.

Speaker 1 You trusted me and then I deserved it. And then I'm like with your heart and I stomped on it.
The reframe of that is that you actually gave it a chance.

Speaker 1 Nobody needs to waste their time small talking with people.

Speaker 1 We're getting so off topic, but this is really interesting. I think when I have to do my own sexual inventory, as you have to do in AA, and I think about times I've been irresponsible or not.

Speaker 1 I think what I underestimated sometimes is it came very easy and natural for me to have those kind of conversations with women. And for a lot of those women, it was such a unique thing.

Speaker 1 They had only experienced with someone they were deeply in love with.

Speaker 1 And I do think it was quite misleading at times to women, which I fear in their reflection felt like manipulation or something, but it's just kind of how I am. You're a sharer.

Speaker 1 Yes, and I think it fast forwarded. It's kind of like this thing we learned about in England where the GIs got all these English girls pregnant.
Americans kiss really quick.

Speaker 1 English don't kiss for a long time. They jumped ahead 10 seconds.
This is verbal kissing. This is you sharing something vulnerable.

Speaker 1 A lot of people will associate that with a very unique kind of relationship they've only had once and it was love.

Speaker 1 There are people though, every relationship in their life is like this and they want nothing else, myself included.

Speaker 1 I have a colleague at Harvard named Leslie John who's writing a book called Reveal. And it's all about this conundrum of the spectrum from full opacity where you share nothing to full transparency.

Speaker 1 If you could download the full contents of your brain and give it to somebody else as a gift, we're making these choices constantly of how much do we share of ourselves and what consequences come from it.

Speaker 1 Closeness and skipping ahead and accelerating a relationship development is one of the pros. One of the downsides is it really does make you more vulnerable to heartbreak or exploitation, essentially.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I have this in malfriendships a lot too.

Speaker 1 And this runs the risk of sounding arrogant, but I have observed it and it's real, which is a lot of guys are comfortable telling me things they generally won't tell other guys, which is an incredible privilege and it's beautiful.

Speaker 1 But I may be the only person they do that with. And so I'm kind of their best friend.
And then maybe they could feel hurt because I don't have a capacity for 150 best friends.

Speaker 1 I think think about this all the time.

Speaker 1 One of the downsides of getting really good at conversation is that you don't actually have the bandwidth to be the best friend, the best boss, the best colleague to

Speaker 1 a thousand people. And it's such a first world problem.

Speaker 1 If you really work on this skill and people are willing to trust you and share with you and love being with you, the problem then becomes that person actually doesn't have the time and energy to fulfill that role all the time to that many people.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't don't see the future solution being I'm less connected and a safe place to chat. It's that I think there's more options for those people to have that experience with multiple people.

Speaker 1 That's the positive future is that there's a lot more dudes that are willing to chat about veterans. Send them my book.
I'm going to send them your bullet.

Speaker 1 Okay, so asking questions, we got that, but I do want to ask what a boomer ask is. Wow, myself, I'm shriveling with embarrassment.
It is not about boomers. Let me say that, first of all.

Speaker 1 It is about humans of all ages, and and it's named after a boomerang. So it's when I ask you a question.
So if I say to you, Monica, how was your weekend? It was relaxing. How was yours?

Speaker 1 Let me tell you about my weekend.

Speaker 1 You're asking so that you can talk. It can be even more grotesque in Iraq.
You can go like, have you ever been to Tibet? Exactly. Very specific.
Have you ever been in a fight at Franklin in Highland?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm clearly. Very specific.
Yeah. So this is boomer asking because it's like a boomerang.
You're throwing out the boomerang.

Speaker 1 You let them answer and then you bring it right back to yourself immediately. Yeah.
People do it all the time. I do it.

Speaker 1 God, I hate that I do it.

Speaker 2 Do you do it, Monty? Yeah, I think probably everyone does it in certain circumstances. I did it today on the fact check, but that's a little tricky.

Speaker 1 It's a product.

Speaker 2 It's a product. And so weirdly, it's a mix of these.

Speaker 1 And then our feelings get hurt. Well, no, no, no.
Navigating.

Speaker 2 We've all come in sometimes knowing I'm going to tell this story, knowing it will lead to a real conversation. I, this morning, was like, oh, my hand looks different.

Speaker 2 Oh, I'm going going to bring that up on the fact check.

Speaker 1 Your hand looks different? Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's a huge development.

Speaker 2 Maybe you get a cut and then it scars and then you're looking at your hand, like, whose hand is this?

Speaker 1 You have very lovely hand. Thank you very much.
You were better.

Speaker 2 Thank you. But anyway, so I sat down and I said, have you ever had this experience? To start the conversation.

Speaker 1 You're open to hearing I've had a similar. Yeah, I did want to know the answer, but also I was like, we're going to talk about this now.
It's all about the timing.

Speaker 1 So if you really want to hear about Dax's hand car experiences,

Speaker 1 and he shares with you very openly, the important thing is follow up on his thing first. Yes.
So, it feels like you actually care because you do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Before we get back to your hand changing into a new hand.

Speaker 2 Luckily, he did not understand what I was talking about.

Speaker 1 Understandably.

Speaker 1 You wonder what's better. Come out and tell the story you want to tell.
So, we study that exactly. Oh, tell me.

Speaker 1 So, we randomly assign people to either start with a question, let someone answer, and then tell a story, or just tell the story. Just telling the story is better.

Speaker 1 Whether you're bragging, whether you're complaining, or whether you're just saying something weird and neutral. Yeah.
Like, oh, I think my hand morphed into a different hand.

Speaker 1 It's better to just share it, which then may trigger reciprocity. That's the hope.
Yeah. You don't have control over that.

Speaker 1 But you're going to get the satisfaction of sharing whatever this thing you're dying to share.

Speaker 1 And you hope that the person you're talking to is actually interested and ask about it or share about themselves. Yeah, interesting.
What's a gotcha question?

Speaker 1 That's almost a gotcha question unto itself.

Speaker 1 It's not a question.

Speaker 1 It's not a case. A gotcha question is really in the eye of the receiver.
If the person feels like you're testing them. Or leading them.

Speaker 1 Leading them, making them feel like you want to prove how incompetent they are, that they're a liar, expose them as a fraud. So if I were to say, Dax, you said that you were an actor.

Speaker 1 Are you acting in anything right now?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, what the hell? You could do it for fun. If we're best friends and I want to tease you, that's a really funny way to do it.
If we're not, and that's a legitimate question, what an asshole. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's a really quick way to make someone feel really bad.

Speaker 1 Allison, you can't imagine how many people who only know me from acting will see me at the airport and they'll go, what do you got coming out?

Speaker 1 And then I go, I have a podcast and they don't have any sense that it's successful. And they feel so

Speaker 1 acting, though. I feel so bad.
The nice thing is kind of gotcha. What they're really saying is I like watching you.

Speaker 1 I want to to keep my eyes out for something else.

Speaker 1 But when I say I'm busy doing a podcast instead of acting, they get upset. I think they feel really bad for me.

Speaker 1 No, I'm reading you as you're asking me this to embarrass me, to exploit me, to make me look bad. That's a gotcha question.
The same question

Speaker 1 lobbed from someone who doesn't actually know the answer and really cares about you. Yeah, just wants to know.
Great. The importance is like sort of caring intention.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more armchair experts

Speaker 1 if you dare.

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That's A-D-D-Y-I.com.

Speaker 1 This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So many of us are really impacted by the colder seasons seasons when it gets dark so much earlier and the days feel shorter than ever.

Speaker 2 Yeah, me, me, I'm the one. I feel horrible when it seasonal affective disorder.

Speaker 1 Yes, you do take a,

Speaker 1 take a hit. I do.
When it gets dark. You know how it goes.
Life gets busy, but that's exactly why shorter days don't have to be so dismal.

Speaker 1 It's time to reach out and check in with those you care about and to remind ourselves that we're not alone. And you know what? Every time I finally do, I think, why didn't I do this sooner?

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Speaker 1 This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. The website for Armchair Expert.
I was too afraid to try.

Speaker 1 I didn't want to build it. I didn't think I had the skill set.
But Rob got on there. He made the most beautiful website for us and he said it was incredibly easy.
You do not have to be tech savvy.

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Speaker 1 And when you're ready to launch, use code DAX to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain. We are supported by Skims.
You know what, Monica?

Speaker 1 I have to talk to you about these Skims pajamas they sent us.

Speaker 2 Yes. I was literally just thinking about how much I love mine.
I think I've worn them every night since we got them.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, I barely was able to get out of mine to come in today. So I've always been that guy who just sleeps in whatever, random t-shirt, you know, old shorts.

Speaker 1 These skims jammies, first of all, they're in the pattern I love. They're in the checkered red and black.
Yes. And then the fabric is just snuggling me all night long.

Speaker 2 It's such a good product. And also for the women's ones, the one I have is so cute.
I like after my shower, my routine, to get into a cute pair of pajamas.

Speaker 2 And I feel like my sleep is improved when I'm wearing cute.

Speaker 1 Eventize it.

Speaker 2 You eventize it. That's right.

Speaker 1 And honestly, I feel more put together wearing matching pajamas instead of my usual mismatch situation.

Speaker 2 The timing couldn't be better either because it's holiday season. And honestly, these would make incredible gifts.
They have options for women, men, kids, and even pets. That's so cute.

Speaker 2 Who doesn't want to feel this comfortable sleeping?

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Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop-down menu that follows.

Speaker 1 And if you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.

Speaker 1 Okay, let's get to levity, probably my favorite part. I could see where people wouldn't prioritize levity.
Can I give you guys a compliment? Oh, please. Which is a levity move.
Oh, she's doing it.

Speaker 1 Really, I think the reason that this podcast and you guys are so great is because you're so good at balancing gravity and levity.

Speaker 1 It's almost the whole mission of the conversations you have is you want to have stuff you take seriously and you take learning seriously, you take issues and topics seriously.

Speaker 1 And all the way along, you want it to be fun.

Speaker 2 Very nice compliment.

Speaker 1 Yeah, thank you. You accomplished the mission.

Speaker 2 I agree that that's the mission.

Speaker 1 Do you disagree that that's the mission? No, I was trying to do a really thorough and honest assessment of the motive behind that. My motive? Mine.
Oh, let's assess. Why?

Speaker 1 I think the thing that might be truest under all of it is it is my

Speaker 1 tool

Speaker 1 to both let go of power and maintain power by being vulnerable and honest i'm giving away my power and i'm scared but i always have the skill set

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 steer the reaction if necessary i do think it's my way of controlling how vulnerable i'll be so we've done research on the relationship between humor and power wow even one joke or one moment where you make other people laugh in a conversation means you're much much more likely to be voted as the leader of the group.

Speaker 1 So I think often when we think of levity or humor, we have a tendency to think of it as like this bonus, this extra sparkly thing that might happen sometimes. And that's nice.

Speaker 1 When you actually study the psychology of humor and levity in conversation and its relationship with status and power, the core determinant of the status hierarchy.

Speaker 1 So I think your sense of I'm doing this to reclaim power and control is legitimate. Yeah, because when I tell you something that's very revealing, I get immediately scared, as I think most people do.

Speaker 1 And it's broader than this room. So my mind can't help but imagine however a million people take the thing I just said.
And then I can take the legs out from it if I want to at any moment.

Speaker 1 And it's this little micro moment of power because you're like, I know I'm going to say this thing and I'm pretty sure you're going to laugh.

Speaker 1 Just even that power over somebody to evoke that emotional response in that moment is tremendous.

Speaker 1 And it signals something about you that you have the competence, the wherewithal, the dominance to make that happen again in the future. And people read that as a very core competency.

Speaker 1 It's really interesting. I also think it enables you to take big swings because you can neutralize it.
I think of Jess. Jess is very, very funny.
He's also very, very provocative.

Speaker 1 So he's saying really provocative things. And if they go sideways, he's great at acknowledging they went sideways to then release the pressure.
A lot of funny people do this, this recovery thing.

Speaker 1 I'll be here all night. That was the joke.
Right. Right.
The recovery of like, well, at least I tried.

Speaker 1 So in this same research where we're studying humor and power, what we found is even when jokes totally flop, people don't laugh, they think they're inappropriate, they don't think they're funny, you still get a boost in how people perceive your confidence because you are at least confident enough to try.

Speaker 1 Yes. And even that is admirable.
Okay, kindness. And this is where we really get into listening.
I feel like this overlaps a bit with asking questions, but why does it deserve its own category?

Speaker 1 Moment to moment, when people are talking to each other, when they're walking through the world, what are kind people thinking about and what are they saying to other people?

Speaker 1 I was as a psychologist so curious to try and figure that out.

Speaker 1 And I think we've come up with some pretty concrete answers of what people who are prioritizing other people's needs more frequently than others, these are kind people

Speaker 1 and they do some predictable things during conversation. More respectful language that makes people feel worthy and seen and known and understood.
Could you give me an example of respectful language?

Speaker 1 Using people's names is a good start. I think you're worthy of even knowing who you are.
Just as a starting place. Think of how many conversations you've had where you didn't know someone's name.

Speaker 1 It's a very uneasy feeling. Yut.
Because you can't give them that respect. How can I show you that I care about you and respect you if I don't even know your name? That's a weird feeling.

Speaker 1 Let's lap on name tags, guys. Right.
Just as a start, that's such a basic thing. But every little linguistic choice you make is an opportunity to show respect or not.

Speaker 1 Positive language is more respectful than negative. It shows people that you like being with them.
Literally things like, great, good, awesome, cool, love that.

Speaker 1 As opposed to negative language that's like, no, uh-uh, hmm, that sucks. That makes you feel like you're not enjoying being with me.

Speaker 1 And then making people feel like they're worthy of your time and attention, which then ties into listening.

Speaker 1 So when we think about listening, there's decades of work on active listening, which is mostly nonverbal cue, like nodding, smiling, leaning forward.

Speaker 1 In our more recent research on listening, what we we find is great conversationalists use their words to show people that they've heard them. Those can't be faked.

Speaker 1 So if you're sitting on Zoom, you can be like smiling and nodding, but you're off to the side, making a grocery list or texting your friends.

Speaker 1 What you can't fake are things like follow-up questions, callbacks, which is your ding ding ding, I think. Right? Love a ding, ding, ding.

Speaker 1 You can't fake a ding ding ding if you didn't hear it the first time. Paraphrasing what other people have said.
repeating back to them what they've said, my understanding you right.

Speaker 1 There's another piece of kindness that we haven't talked about yet, which is receptiveness to opposing viewpoints.

Speaker 1 So when you confront a moment of difficulty where you really disagree, many of these same skills, the listening with your words and validating people, that's when it becomes especially important and especially hard to do.

Speaker 1 Imagine you hate people who had affairs. And in that moment, your friend's like, I'm having an affair.

Speaker 1 And in that moment, what a good conversationalist would do would be like, I hear that you're saying you had an affair. It makes so much sense that you're feeling upset about that.

Speaker 1 Let's consider for a second why this is a bad decision. So before you go on to disagree with them, you have to do that hard work of validating them.
And almost everyone's kids.

Speaker 1 My son was like, totally. You're not a terrible, flawed person.
You're not broken. You did something a lot of people do.
And we got to make sure you wake up with your family for the rest of your life.

Speaker 1 How do we get there? Exactly.

Speaker 2 It's so interesting, this whole topic, because I feel like we think about it a lot.

Speaker 2 I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, but for people who are neurodivergent, like the show Everyone's going to be a little bit more.

Speaker 1 I love the spectrum. Yes, I love that show.

Speaker 2 I didn't watch it. Everyone loved it.
There was a lot of this teaching how to have conversations and active listening, all these tools.

Speaker 1 Eye contact.

Speaker 2 Yes, it's so lovely to see that in practice, but it's also kind of arrogant of neurotypical people who are watching and they're like, yeah, they don't know how to do that.

Speaker 1 Nobody's doing it.

Speaker 2 No one's doing it right.

Speaker 1 I love watching that show.

Speaker 1 Actually, one of the tactics most helpful on that show, they have these really lovely coaches who come in before their dates and they have them brainstorm topics ahead of time.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, yeah, everybody needs to be doing that. Neurotypical neurodivergent is a false dichotomy in and of itself.
This binary notion.

Speaker 1 We're all on this weird spectrum with varying degrees of adeptness. In all different vectors.
In all different directions.

Speaker 1 There are people who are not neurodivergent who are very uncomfortable with eye contact. I talk to them all the time.
There are any number of things that they might be struggling with.

Speaker 1 They don't go to fucking dates with topics. They're just going to let their neurotypicalness take over.

Speaker 1 Correct. Okay, now when you get into a group conversation, it gets more complicated.

Speaker 1 That seems pretty obvious, but I did want to talk specifically about the status hierarchy effect of a group chat and how it changes within conversations.

Speaker 1 I think to some people, it's not obvious how much more difficult groups are than dyads, than one-on-one, because it feels like you're doing the same task.

Speaker 1 You're talking, you're listening, you're with other people. It's clear that it's harder to coordinate, but I don't think we realize how much harder.

Speaker 1 Even here, this whole time, I'm toggling my eye gaze between both of you. Monica's so patient.
She's such a good listener.

Speaker 1 And we're all doing this calculus that's quite a bit different than if it were just me and Monica or just me and Dax together.

Speaker 1 As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, everything changes. Someone can sit there, be part of the conversation, and never talk.

Speaker 1 That's different than one-on-one, where you have to go back and forth.

Speaker 1 And so I think people don't realize that as group size grows, the coordination challenges of all conversations grow exponentially.

Speaker 1 Every person in the group has a unique shared reality, a unique relationship. What's boring to Dax might be really exciting to me and Monica.

Speaker 1 So all of those little micro-decisions get even more fraught. And one of the things that we have to navigate is status differences as people get thrown into the mix.

Speaker 1 Every group has an inherent status hierarchy. So the status hierarchy is determined by all kinds of things.

Speaker 1 Sometimes it's a formal hierarchy, like at an organization, there's a boss or on an army battalion, there's the

Speaker 1 sometimes it's age, sometimes it's level of wealth, sometimes it's expertise, but it's other things, gender, it's race, it's all of these things that our minds are doing, this calculation of who has the most power here, who has the most liking and respect, who's the most influential.

Speaker 1 And we do this internal sort of ranking in a group. And it affects all the ways that people behave.
We tend to look at people who have high status when they're speaking. They speak more.

Speaker 1 So you look at them, but also when they're not speaking, we look to see their emotional reactions because they determine the norms like are they surprised by this are they pissed about this should i be pissed about this which makes lower status group members feel invisible you're literally not looking at them as much they feel less welcome to contribute the revelation that we've sort of realized by studying conversations at the topic level as you move from one thing to another the status hierarchy shifts from one topic to the next.

Speaker 2 Oh, interesting.

Speaker 1 We start talking about fashion.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 All of a sudden, I am not going to be looking at Dax Dax as much. I'm going to be deferring to Monica, who's the circle.
Oh, yeah, I forgot to give you my gift. She'll come in a little bit.

Speaker 1 If you're good. If you're good.
If you behave yourself. But if we switch to a new topic on which I have the most expertise, things are going to change.

Speaker 1 Imagine there's five other people here who have all different expertise and levels of status. So it's shifting dynamically as we move from one topic to the next.

Speaker 1 It's not like you go to a work meeting and the boss guy is always top dog. Imagine you land on a topic where all of a sudden, low woman on the totem pole has all the value to add.

Speaker 1 She better feel safe and included enough and welcome to speak when you get to that topic. You probably don't want to be ensnared in this, but I can't resist right now.

Speaker 1 I constantly talk about this. I think status is

Speaker 1 what we are most conscious of at all times. I think it is driving so much of everything.
I think it's just baked into being a social primate. I don't think it's escapable.

Speaker 1 I think there's a lot of young people who think the solution to this is the eradication of status. You can.
It's how our brains are.

Speaker 1 Even these movements, I see like main character energy versus supporting Kazakh. All the movement is to get rid of status.

Speaker 1 And to me, it's just like saying, let's get rid of being bipedal and walk on all fours. We have to acknowledge it's there, accept that it's there, and figure out how to navigate it best.

Speaker 1 But the notion of obliterating status. Eradication is not the right goal.

Speaker 1 The goal instead, the sort of reframe is when you are in that high status position, what can you you do to lift other people up?

Speaker 1 When you're in the low status role and you're marginalized, what can you possibly do to cope with a very difficult position that you're in? It sucks. It sucks.

Speaker 1 You have a narrower range of things that you're allowed to say that will be seen as appropriate or as a value add. So then you're less likely to speak.

Speaker 1 And if you never speak, you're not actually bringing value. Nobody ever gets to know you and what you can do.
It's this crazy double vibe.

Speaker 1 Our job is to try and learn as much as we can about each other, regardless of status, but you can't eradicate it. It's what we're built to do.
And status striving, right?

Speaker 1 We all want to ascend and maintain. Whether we're conscious of it, it means more food and safety.
Yeah, food and safety and attraction and reproduction. Yeah.
Okay. I'm going to jump to apologies.

Speaker 1 And I got to give credit to AA. There's a few things that it forced me to do.
I had to embrace the dogma. My favorite thing is the four-step.

Speaker 1 I've talked about here before, learning to actually take an inventory of how you feel and what fears are being triggered. That's been so incredible to understand.

Speaker 1 But being forced to say apologies, make amends, and then getting the experience of delivering some of those and finding out the reaction is not at all what you're afraid it'll be.

Speaker 1 I don't know how anyone else learns that unless they're in a program that demands it. But as the 10-step, we have to do that daily.
It's not just, oh, what you accumulated as an addict.

Speaker 1 It's like daily, how is my behavior maybe impacted someone negatively? And I have an obligation to clean that up.

Speaker 1 Cause if I don't clean that up, I will have low self-esteem and hate myself, and I will use.

Speaker 1 So it's imperative. And through practicing this for 20 years, a few truths have emerged.
One is it never goes bad like you think it's going to.

Speaker 1 And then what you realize immediately is like, oh, no one's getting apologized to. Yeah.
Because the reaction to most people I make amends to or apologize to is shock.

Speaker 1 When you say that people's reactions are sometimes not what you expect, in what direction are the reactions surprising or have been surprising?

Speaker 1 Almost unanimously understanding, comforting, and touch that you did care.

Speaker 1 I think what people want to know is that you acknowledge that was hurtful and that you're not someone that is disposable, that they don't worry, that they've upset.

Speaker 1 Can I tell you who I talked to about this? Please. Orna.

Speaker 1 You hang out with me. Orna Giralmik from Couple Therapy.
We are upset. So this chapter on apologies opens with the story from Couples Therapy, one of the couples on the show.

Speaker 1 Which one? Tashira and Drew. They're from, I think, season one or two.

Speaker 1 They're amazing. She got pregnant and they started living together.
They were in a really rocky place. Yes.
I think it was in the pandemic phase of the show-ish.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And he would bounce back to moms a lot. Yes.
And they didn't sleep in the same room, which is fine. For those of you who don't go sleep, it's fine.
But they were in a really rocky place.

Speaker 1 I thought that they were not going to end up together. And then you follow them through their therapy.
And by the end, one of the things that they got so good at is apologizing to each other.

Speaker 1 They're not sniffing at each other anymore. They're not like chewing on their resentments.

Speaker 1 And so I talked to Orna about it, what she thinks of apologies broadly and in the context of this couple in particular.

Speaker 1 And she was like, here's what apologies do. Two things.
One, they show someone that you understand them, that you understand that there was harm to you.

Speaker 1 And maybe it was at your hands, maybe it wasn't, but it shows that you understand them and that you are taking some responsibility, that you care that they've been harmed and that you want to be part of the solution.

Speaker 1 That if you can show those two things, that you understand someone and you're taking accountability, if you can do that without apologizing, you don't have to apologize.

Speaker 1 However, apologies are the best shortcut that we have to do those two things in a sincere and really meaningful way.

Speaker 1 I really think they're the most powerful thing we have in our conversational toolkit. My kids are great at it.
Maybe the thing I'm most proud of my children. I said the same thing in the book.

Speaker 1 I wrote a little story about my oldest, Kevin. It was honestly like the most rewarding moment, I think, ever as a parent.
What did he apologize about? Oh, it's a doozy.

Speaker 1 He was a heck of a toddler. He was like a biter hitter.
Okay. He's a headbutt.
He has all these big ideas and he was a late talker. He was so frustrated.
He couldn't express them.

Speaker 1 Because boys are dumb. Yeah.
So dumb. He can't communicate.
So he was having a tantrum and I picked him up and he flung his head back and he broke my nose.

Speaker 1 You can see it's like a little crooked. It's okay.
I know I still look great. It's a little crooked.
It's fine. You're finally different from Sarah.
You're finally different.

Speaker 1 You're welcome, not an apology.

Speaker 1 He had to be maybe three at the time. It was so enraging for all the reasons.
But I still hadn't taught him to be the kind of person who wouldn't hurt someone like that.

Speaker 1 He also was three, so he didn't really care. A hard, mothering face.
Fast forward, he's now nine, turning 10. Maybe it was around when he was seven.
He was reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid.

Speaker 1 And the main character, Greg Hefley, we were reading together and Greg Hefley apologized to Rowley, which is his best friend, which was rare. He's kind of usually like a jerk to his best friend.

Speaker 1 And Kevin paused and in that moment turned to me and he was like, Mom, remember when I broke your nose when I was like a toddler? And I said, yeah,

Speaker 1 it wasn't great. I won't ever forget it, Kevin.
I will never forget. Thank you for the reminder.
And then I was staring back at me in the mirror every day.

Speaker 1 He looked in my eyes and he goes, I'm so sorry. Oh.

Speaker 1 It was so beautiful. I couldn't believe that occurred to him.
It's more powerful than I love you, but I love you. It is more powerful because it's harder to do, harder to say.

Speaker 1 It is the action of loving someone, not just the words. You're right.
You are doing an action by apologizing that is harder and more vulnerable to do.

Speaker 1 It is the action of love rather than just saying it. I know how hard it is for me, and they just did that.
They fucking love me.

Speaker 1 They're also saying in that moment, I'm saying this to you because I want to have a relationship with you in the future.

Speaker 1 Because I want you to see me as the kind of person that deserves being in a relationship with and I want to be with you. And my standards for us are high.
Let's get back there. It's fucking awesome.

Speaker 1 It's so hard. And I wish people could just practice.
Monica will tell you, I've gone too far. This is one of my favorite stories.
This house has been worked on for seven years, right?

Speaker 1 That's how long it took. And we lived here through lots of the construction.
And I had all my car chargers plugged into this one extension cord. And I came out and guys were working.

Speaker 1 They were sawing and all my chargers were unplugged. And I was late to bring the girls to school.
There are a bunch bunch of things had piled up. And my reaction was, don't fucking unplug my shit.

Speaker 1 I'm fucking, there's an extent. Like, I really lost it.

Speaker 1 And I dropped the girls off at school. And I'm like, oh, I feel terrible about this.
These guys are working their asses off. I'm an entitled rich person.
How ugly of me. I've got to say sorry.

Speaker 1 Come back.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, guys, guys, there's like nine or ten guys working. I just want to say I'm really sorry about how I talked to you guys.
None of you deserve that.

Speaker 1 I know you're working really hard and I'm so sorry. And what was funny is this apology went on long enough that I did recognize, oh, this is more painful than the shouting ones.

Speaker 1 This like mail-on-mail vulnerability is actually making them want to throw off more than the yelling.

Speaker 1 So then I was like, I gotta make sure my apologies are serving the people I'm trying to. But this is the crux of kindness always is figuring out what other people need.

Speaker 1 Do they need to hear the apology? Most of the time the answer is yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And every once in a while, if you're apologizing like nine times for the same thing, you're going to start just reminding the person of the thing that happened that wasn't good.

Speaker 1 There is a tipping point where it becomes too much.

Speaker 2 Or you just start feeling like, well, that means nothing. Yeah.
Because I've been hearing this all the time and nothing's changing.

Speaker 1 There's not a single study of live conversation that shows that refusing to apologize or neglecting to apologize is better than apologizing.

Speaker 1 But the sort of tipping point is when your partner doesn't feel like it's sincere. Right.
You're not doing it well. You're saying, like, I'm so sorry you feel that way.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of ways to give a bad apology. So you need to apologize frequently, but do it well.
And really curb your behavior. Don't just promise to change.
Actually change.

Speaker 1 I was going to say that's one upside of having to do a 10 step as well is that I'm sometimes on the verge of blowing it. Blowing sobriety or blowing relational.
Yelling at somebody.

Speaker 1 And as I'm about to let it fly, I go, I'll be apologizing for this. So weirdly can curb your behavior too if you're in a real habit of doing it.

Speaker 1 Because it's part of the healthy suite of skills that is going to help you do the right thing to begin with.

Speaker 1 If you're able to anticipate, it's going to be super hard for me to stonewall for a while, take space, come back, apologize, give them time, then they forgive me, then we move on.

Speaker 1 That process can be circumvented by not yelling in the first place. Yeah.
But we're human. We're all going to mess up.
We're all going to yell at people sometimes if they break your nose.

Speaker 1 You just hope you don't get physical when someone breaks your nose. That's about the best you can do.
His name's Kevin, so I was like the mom from home alone. They're like, hi.

Speaker 1 I like plopped him down and ran away to look in the mirror.

Speaker 1 Well, Allison, this has been a blast. I hope everyone checks out Talk, the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves.
And I'm really jealous of everyone that gets to take your class.

Speaker 1 Oh, we do. How fun.
You guys, thank you so much for having me. Oh, you guys.
You're so fun.

Speaker 2 So helpful for so many people, I think.

Speaker 1 I want to interview Sarah now. You should.

Speaker 1 I want to see her. You want to call her.
You want to call her? She is.

Speaker 1 This is very. I want them to both come in with the goal of tricking us.

Speaker 2 Are you Sarah?

Speaker 1 Maybe I am.

Speaker 1 It would be like a sociopath we interviewed. I never know what's what.
Exactly. We did a twin trick in my class the first year I ever taught.
I didn't tell anyone I had a twin.

Speaker 1 Saved it till the end of the semester. It was our day on deception.
And we dressed the same. And I went in and I did the normal milling with the students before.

Speaker 1 Then you go out to close the door, but Sarah came back in and she started the class and she just opened her arms and she was like, deception. What do we think?

Speaker 1 And she got the class having a discussion. They went on for like five minutes.
Wow. And at some point, a student raised his hand and he goes, I think we're being deceived right now.

Speaker 1 Imonica of the room. Immonica of the room.
The free cock of the room. I was like, I think we're being deceived.
And so I ran in and it was like a standing ovation.

Speaker 1 This is my favorite movie.

Speaker 1 The Nolan movie. Yes.
Prestige. I want to rewatch it.

Speaker 2 I want to re-watch it.

Speaker 1 And it was a twin thing, wasn't it? In the end, that was the ultimate trick, it was a twin thing. Yeah, you got to live the routine.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Any like loved one girl before.

Speaker 1 All right. Allison, this has been a blast.
I hope everyone checks out Talk. Please come again when you write another book.
Thank you so much, you guys. You're awesome.

Speaker 1 Hi there. This is Hermione Permium.
If you like that, you're going to love the the fact-checker. Miss Monica.

Speaker 1 Oh, guess what? This is from Hot Goss. Okay, great.
Kristen was at the doctor today, and there's an anesthesiologist there. And the last time she met him, right before he gave her the local,

Speaker 1 he was behind her and she was face down. And he said, welcome, welcome, welcome.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So then this time she's like, oh, I'll bring him a sweatshirt or a t-shirt or something.
So she brought him something today.

Speaker 1 And he said, I need you to know that I was eliminated in the second round of taking Monica on a date. Wait, what? Do you remember when you guys put out like a...

Speaker 2 For Monica and Just Season 2? I guess. That's the only time we put anything out, but we didn't even get that far.

Speaker 1 Well, he submitted.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. I know.
An anesthesiologist? They're very wealthy. They are.
That's supposed to be the highest starting salary in 1993 when I was in high school and looked looked it up.

Speaker 2 Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2 I feel sorry.

Speaker 1 You feel flattered and then you feel guilty that you feel flattered.

Speaker 2 Well, I feel guilty that someone felt eliminated. We need to have her say, we need to have her clear things up.

Speaker 1 Yeah. She needs to start fake an injury.
Bring

Speaker 2 a new item like a mug and say, And people will be so concerned.

Speaker 1 Her shoulder hurts. Just that's nuts.
She doesn't have any issue. I think when they hear Anastasia, people will be off to the races.
I find find that flattering. Don't you think?

Speaker 1 Do you think most people would be flattered to hear a doctor has hots for them? We do that, right?

Speaker 2 I'm attracted to that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, right. I'm susceptible to that.

Speaker 2 I feel flustered.

Speaker 1 Okay, because there's this hot anesthesia.

Speaker 2 Is he married now? Because that was a while ago.

Speaker 1 Married and divorced. Oh, annulled? Great.
Annuled, yeah.

Speaker 1 Fraud. Oh, and consummation.
That's bad.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's good.

Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes, yes. We should put out as an a prompt annulments.

Speaker 2 Great idea.

Speaker 1 Robbie, write it down.

Speaker 2 Write it down.

Speaker 1 Yeah, annulments.

Speaker 2 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 2 Maybe he's a vulneraboy.

Speaker 1 He's certainly a vulnerable boy. You wouldn't listen to this if you were a boy.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 And if you were not a vulneraby. Unless you're a cookie boy.

Speaker 1 Cookie boy.

Speaker 2 Speaking of.

Speaker 1 Oh, let's talk.

Speaker 2 We have big news. I mean, we've already discussed this before.
We have new march out. Yes.
And it's fun. It is.

Speaker 1 You want to hear something crazy? Yeah. So one of, I was, I was thinking, and I just want to continue to thank the Arm Sherries who showed up in San Francisco.
It really made the whole show.

Speaker 1 When I was leaving the theater, I took pictures with folks and a woman had our new t-shirt on.

Speaker 2 Which one?

Speaker 1 The crow, the mouse, and the cherries. Oh,

Speaker 1 and I go, oh, my God. I got so confused.
I thought, are they already out? And she bought one. And I go, oh, my God, you have one of the t-shirts.
And she goes, it's, I know, it's pirated.

Speaker 1 and I go oh that's okay we're actually weirdly making that t-shirt now yeah so I saw it as like it was a really good idea because here this person went on their own and made okay great yeah yeah we have all of our limited sweatshirt designs on t-shirts on t-shirts available we have our own shop popping up.

Speaker 2 We have a pop-up. We have a pop-up merch shop that will be up until we have official merch with Wonder.

Speaker 2 and Amazon. And that's probably going to be at the end of March-ish.
So until then, we have our pop-up merch that we made into our own.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 And so get on there. There's, I'm really proud of a lot of the designs.
I think they're really cute. So we have those T's.
Right. And then we have.

Speaker 1 So we have Welcome, the Robot. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Welcome, Matt. And then we have Ball Sat Cowboy.

Speaker 2 Yep. We have the

Speaker 2 cowboy on the mic. On the microphone.

Speaker 1 We have have DuckDuck Goose. Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 And we have

Speaker 1 Crow, Cherries, and Mouse.

Speaker 2 They're on teas now. And we have two new tees.
We have a Cookie Boy Tea.

Speaker 1 Cookie Boy Time.

Speaker 2 And a Reverse Back Tea.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's only for the pervious Arm Cherries out there because I think you are inviting some sexual attention if you're wearing a reverse back shirt. You might want that.
I would.

Speaker 1 I will be wearing one. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's really cool looking and chic and sleek. And we have a sweatsuit, two sweatsuits.
Same design, but one is a hoodie, one is not.

Speaker 1 What's on the sweatsuit?

Speaker 2 It says AE. It has a crow on top of it and a cherry in its mouth and some cherries falling down the sleeve.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, very cool.

Speaker 1 I'm going to wear that sweatsuit too.

Speaker 2 I know me too. I'm really excited for the sweatsuit.

Speaker 2 I'm going to go crew neck. That's my aesthetic.
I'm not going to go hoodie. But yeah, that's...

Speaker 1 You have too much hair for a hoodie. Is that what we're going to do?

Speaker 2 Maybe that's part of it. It gets caught up in there.
Yeah. Although apparently hoodies are the most selling item.

Speaker 1 I love a hoodie, but I don't have long hair.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So just to be clear,

Speaker 1 we have brokered this deal with Amazon, begged them to let us sell our own merch for a month, which means our turnaround is really quick. So go on order.

Speaker 1 There's going to be a little bit of delay, but we have this window to sell for a month, basically.

Speaker 1 And it's cute. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So get on that. That's a good fun update.
Yes, and

Speaker 2 um everyone's happy, but Carl we give one to my new maybe boyfriend who's married and an old, yes, for sure.

Speaker 2 And I wonder what what do you think suspicion?

Speaker 1 Reverse that,

Speaker 2 but cookie boy's so fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he had the confidence to wear a cookie boy. Do you think it's it's I wouldn't wear a cookie boy shirt, really?

Speaker 1 No, it sounds to me like I'm advertising like eating out power bottom, like a cake boy.

Speaker 2 I would expect you to wear it.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 2 I would have thought you would have worn it.

Speaker 2 Confident man will wear it.

Speaker 1 What if?

Speaker 1 Hold on a second. This isn't fair.
I think it is. What about a shirt that says cake boy? That's like it feels like false advertising.
Like I shouldn't wear a shirt that says cake boy.

Speaker 2 What is a cookie boy?

Speaker 1 Ask the computer what cake boy.

Speaker 2 No, a cookie boy.

Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't know.
It's not.

Speaker 1 Rob, am I insane?

Speaker 1 I don't know what cake Kickboy means, but

Speaker 1 Cookie Boy, yeah, I probably wouldn't wear a Cookie Boy shirt either. Yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, I thought everyone said we wanted that as a shirt.
Yes, because I want...

Speaker 1 70% of the people. Did you find out what Kickboy means? Cake Boy is someone light and fluffy, effeminate,

Speaker 1 not meaty.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's what Urban Dictionary says.

Speaker 2 Doesn't mean gay. That could mean baby girl.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Baby girls are.
It's just always used in reference to gay guys. Okay.
It's saying metrosexual. Okay.

Speaker 1 My gay. A feminine male.
Yeah. A feminine male.

Speaker 2 A feminine male isn't gay necessarily. Like Timothy Chalamet is not gay.
He's dating. He's not like he's feminine.

Speaker 1 Oh, this urban dictionary says a soft, feminine, heterosexual male. And the quote is, Jerome ain't gay.
He's a motherfucking cake boy. Okay, so Jerome's not gay.
He's a motherfucking cake boy.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 Anyway.

Speaker 1 Hold on a second. I don't want to be, I don't want there to be any upsetness or hurt feelings about this.

Speaker 2 Well, there's not. You invented cookie boy.

Speaker 1 For you, yeah. This says a cake boy is someone who's confused for being gay, but it's really straight.
Okay. Okay, well.

Speaker 2 I think we have had enough.

Speaker 1 Do you think in general girls want to be described as masculine? No. Because that's a one-to-one.

Speaker 1 Do boys want to be described as feminine? I think not.

Speaker 2 Now I'm like, should we change up the color of the shirt?

Speaker 1 I think it's more the phrase cookie boy than the color.

Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying if girls are going to buy it,

Speaker 1 just make it straight.

Speaker 2 Change it to like pink.

Speaker 1 Listen, don't worry.

Speaker 2 Just leave it. Just leave everything.
Listen. Oh, my God.
I hate this new collection.

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 1 Don't buy it.

Speaker 2 Don't buy it. I'm just kidding.
It's fine. It's great.
I'm excited to wear it.

Speaker 1 I'll wear it. Okay.
Anywho.

Speaker 1 I forgot what we were talking about. Let's reset.
Let's remerge. We're having a very good time.

Speaker 2 Merch is

Speaker 1 on.

Speaker 2 It's not.

Speaker 1 All because this is.

Speaker 2 I've been fighting the rain so hard.

Speaker 1 No, Cookie Boy is not anything worth unraveling over. I thought it was cute.
I think it's great. Okay.

Speaker 2 There's a kind of masculine shirt on there, too, that I designed for you.

Speaker 1 It's okay. The vast majority of the people who order our stuff is women.
I don't mind at all that we have a shirt that's skewing towards women. I'd probably even wear a cookie boy on this show.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 On camera, yeah. I think you should wear it on Kimmel.

Speaker 1 Yeah, do it. Be the man.

Speaker 1 You are.

Speaker 2 You are. You are a cookie boy.

Speaker 1 Hold on.

Speaker 1 Hold on a second, man. I'm a lot of things.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 I don't have to be like, I don't, I can.

Speaker 2 You are, though. You're, uh, you're, you're confident.

Speaker 1 But that doesn't mean I have to declare myself a cake boy.

Speaker 2 Don't make that the same thing.

Speaker 1 I think they are very similar. A cookie boy and a cake boy.

Speaker 2 Cookie boy. Cookie boy is.
We invented that. That's a boy who loves cookies.

Speaker 1 No, it's a girl who loves cookies. It's you.

Speaker 1 That's what a cookie boy is.

Speaker 2 I think Aaron, it started with Aaron or something.

Speaker 1 I forget how this started. You're the original.
You're the OC, original Cookie Boy.

Speaker 1 Okay, I'm a lake boy.

Speaker 2 That is not a cool shirt.

Speaker 1 Probably not.

Speaker 2 I would be so attracted to a muscly, tall

Speaker 1 anesthesiologist.

Speaker 2 Anesthesiologist wearing a cookie boy shirt. That boy is confident, and I like it.

Speaker 1 Look, I wear pink and stuff with

Speaker 1 a lot of confidence. I'm trying to think what boy.
Yeah. Anywho.

Speaker 2 You wore that Gucci.

Speaker 1 That's

Speaker 1 wild. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Flamboyant.

Speaker 1 It's flamboyant for sure. absolutely it's totally flamboyant and my pink is very feminine yeah and it's funny you like that mix messages but would i wear a shirt that says bottom

Speaker 1 i hold don't dismiss me so much i'm not dismissing you i'm just telling you that's not what cookie boy means

Speaker 1 I don't know that anyone knows what Cookie Boy means.

Speaker 2 Including us.

Speaker 1 Including us. Most importantly, us.

Speaker 1 And so I think a lot of people are going to be wondering what that person's declaring about themselves.

Speaker 2 And you don't think that about reverse back, which is interesting, because that reverse back could easily be

Speaker 2 anal. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I hope, you know.

Speaker 1 I think it's just its proximity to Cake Boy. All right.
And Cake Boy is just a very known saying.

Speaker 1 I, okay.

Speaker 1 I know you know. I didn't know it.
I didn't know it either. Rob didn't know it either, but the internet knew it.

Speaker 2 I think the millennials don't know it.

Speaker 1 They don't know Cake Boy.

Speaker 2 I guess Gen X will probably not be Gen X men will probably not be buying it

Speaker 2 in boomers.

Speaker 1 Unless, again, like if I were a bottom, I would totally wear a shirt that said bottom or power bottom or

Speaker 1 because that's what I am. I can't wear a shirt that says queer on it.
No. It would be wrong of me.
I'm not. queer and I can't claim that.
Correct. And now we're just, we're on this continuum.

Speaker 1 I can't wear a shirt that says queer. I can't wear a shirt that says bottom.
I shouldn't wear a shirt that says cake boy.

Speaker 2 I think you could, now that we know the definition, it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean you're declaring that you're gay when you're not and being a hypocrite. And the other one, what was after queer?

Speaker 2 Bottom. You could, and that would be interesting for people.
Yeah. Because maybe you are a bottom, even in your heterosexual sex.

Speaker 1 Meaning, Kristen pegs me.

Speaker 2 Or you're on your back and she's on top.

Speaker 1 I don't think that would constitute a bottom.

Speaker 2 I mean, look, definitions.

Speaker 1 Because the top is often on bottom and the bottom's on top. The top is on top.
Riding. Bottoms usually receive penetration.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 I know that.

Speaker 2 In the

Speaker 1 homosexual community. Yeah, they can receive that penetration on top or bottom.

Speaker 2 You're still.

Speaker 1 No, I'm saying I can't really be a bottom bottom in Kristen and I's relationship. Whether I'm in time and space on top or bottom, it would have to involve some penetration.

Speaker 2 He's technically on top, you're saying. Yes.

Speaker 1 Physically in the top on bottom.

Speaker 2 But he is a bottom because he's getting penetrated.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So we could do a shirt

Speaker 1 that explains all this because maybe a lot of people are confused. No, thanks.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Now.

Speaker 1 We could call it top bottom. And it's a bottom on top.

Speaker 2 Well, our, okay, look, not to make this even more complicated, but the masculine shirt is cherry on top.

Speaker 1 Which kind of looks like a butt.

Speaker 2 So that also could be seen as sexual.

Speaker 1 Cherry on top sounds good sexually, though.

Speaker 2 There's also. So change it to cherry on bottom.

Speaker 1 There's also a cowboy riding a penis on one of them. Yeah, our curbside.
That's straight as hell, though.

Speaker 1 That's straight as hell. A cowboy riding an enormous penis.

Speaker 2 Anyone who wants to...

Speaker 2 Oh, I see. You're making a joke.
I'm making a joke. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 I'm pointing out the hypocrisy.

Speaker 2 I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 But I think people who are straight don't want to declare that they're gay. And I think gay people don't want to declare they're straight.

Speaker 1 And I don't think men who identify as men want to declare they're women.

Speaker 2 I don't think anyone needs to declare anything. It's a cutesy shirt with a little mouse on it.

Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. It is.
It's an adorable shirt. I really like it.

Speaker 2 I think the deeper problem is we've decided that Cookie Boy means something that it doesn't.

Speaker 1 Again, I blame Cake Boy.

Speaker 2 Right. I mean,

Speaker 2 I don't know what to say. A cookie boy has nothing to do with sexual appetite.

Speaker 1 Well, let me ask you this.

Speaker 2 It has to do with loving cookies.

Speaker 1 Right. So what if I made a shirt that said Tim Boy? Timboy.
What do you think of? Be honest.

Speaker 2 A man named Tim?

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 What does it mean?

Speaker 1 I would think Tomboy. Oh, I'm thinking, oh, it's some other now version of Tomboy, but now we're saying Tim Boy.

Speaker 2 Oh, no, I'm not thinking that. That's a Gen X.

Speaker 1 Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 Gen X is really upset about words.

Speaker 2 I think millennials aren't thinking like this.

Speaker 2 Gen Z and COVID, COVID gen, they're definitely not thinking of that.

Speaker 1 Do they have their own acronym now?

Speaker 1 I think they have. COVID.
Gen C.

Speaker 2 I heard that once, but I think it's called maybe Gen Alpha or something.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Something like that.

Speaker 1 Also, my beef with gen's now.

Speaker 1 I may have already aired this. Okay.
It used to be like Gen X covers from 1968 to 1983 or something. It's like this 20-year window virtually.

Speaker 1 And there's been seven gens since

Speaker 2 Gen X.

Speaker 1 It's like you entitled, all you entitled millennials wanted your own generation every year. Millennials,

Speaker 1 you know what I'm saying? Yeah. But yeah, it's this increased uniqueness where they need their own gen every year they were born.

Speaker 2 I know, but I actually think theirs makes more sense because millennials have such, yeah, we have

Speaker 2 my brother's in my gen that we are not in the same, we shouldn't be in the same gen.

Speaker 1 You don't think so?

Speaker 2 No, he grew up with internet and phones

Speaker 2 and stuff.

Speaker 2 I got one in college or late high school.

Speaker 1 You know, it's so maybe there's, maybe, um, maybe there's legitimate reason for breaking it up more. Yeah, because every two years the world's completely different.
I think so. All right.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm learning a lot in this episode.

Speaker 2 Well, I guess I sort of have an update here, sort of. Okay.

Speaker 1 This is The Matchmaker.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So I think I dropped.
I dropped an album that The Matchmaker entered my life again.

Speaker 1 With an option that you can see.

Speaker 2 With an option that was intriguing to me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 we texted, we texted a little bit to

Speaker 2 make a time, you know, make a date.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And you and the candidate.
Yes. Not the matchmaker.
Correct.

Speaker 2 And so, but it was very just like logistics. There was like one, one cute exchange, and then it was on to logistics.

Speaker 1 Right. We got some both type A.
He's got the funds to get a matchmaker.

Speaker 2 I guess so. Yeah.
So this was Saturday. And

Speaker 2 he said,

Speaker 2 I have a really busy week. What about next weekend? And I said, yeah, that should work.
And he said, you're in blank, right? Well, it's feels. And

Speaker 1 if I started getting very protective, I know.

Speaker 2 And I was like, yeah, and you're on the west side. And then he never responded.

Speaker 1 Again. He said he was on the west side?

Speaker 2 I said, I asked the question, and you're on the west side question mark. Ah, and that was Saturday.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 He didn't respond. Oh, my gosh.
And so I was like, he's been killed? Well, no, I was like, what happened? But

Speaker 2 okay, whatever.

Speaker 1 Who cares? Right.

Speaker 2 And then on Friday, he texted.

Speaker 1 Six days later. Uh-huh.
Six days later. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Seven days. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And he said, hey, sorry this got away from me.

Speaker 2 Are you still good for this weekend? And I was like,

Speaker 2 no.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, good.

Speaker 1 Yeah, good for you. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 Then I felt like, oh, am I just being

Speaker 1 like

Speaker 2 doing a normal, like, this is an actual

Speaker 2 way out? I can't do that.

Speaker 1 Well, two things could be happening. Yeah.
Some of it could be that.

Speaker 1 What I like about no is I'm not going to be playing along with this role as you as the boss and you can call me in six days when you remembered. So I won't, I won't participate in that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Go see me for six days, checking in, going, we still good.

Speaker 2 Exactly. It's not for me.

Speaker 1 That's a no. I would, if a, let's just say if a woman did that to me, yeah.
I don't even know if I'd respond to the follow-up in seven days.

Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 But I do like that you said no. I said, and I, at first, I was, I was like, gonna be pretty harsh.

Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, and then I backed off and I just said, what did I say exactly? Let's see what I said.

Speaker 1 You left room for him to apologize.

Speaker 2 Kind of. I wanted to see how he would respond.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I said, you're on the west side.
He said, hey, sorry, I lost track of this. Yeah, I'm on the west side a week later.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Are you still good with tomorrow? I said, hey, no problem. I made plans this weekend, but happy to try to schedule something again.

Speaker 2 And then he said, oh, okay, bummer. Well, we can try another time.

Speaker 2 That was it. Yeah.
And I said, yeah, for sure. I said, next week nights are pretty open for me other than this.

Speaker 1 and i didn't hear anything back so it was interesting because i so first of all that was much nicer than i was expecting and i even nicer than i think he deserves that's yeah i might have been really direct no you can't ghost me for six days and then ask are we still on tomorrow that's not for me that's and then allow him to mount a real apology because he owes you an apology not hey i lost track of this right i agree i agree and that it was my instinct but then i thought well maybe whatever.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't know him.

Speaker 1 Maybe he was in surgery for six days straight.

Speaker 2 I was just like, I don't,

Speaker 2 maybe I should give it another, like, offer up some other option.

Speaker 1 But I'm impressed.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Well, for me, I kind of thought, oh, this person is used to that being fine.

Speaker 1 Sure. Yeah, that's one.
That could also be it. But that would be like the least generous version, right?

Speaker 2 Well, I think it's kind of generous. It's like for him, women are happy to just go out with him when he's ready to go out with him.
She said he's really hot and tall.

Speaker 2 So like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 All the more reason you gotta say that. Well, I agree.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 good for you if this has worked out for you in the past, but that is not.

Speaker 1 I would just want it to be a little more clear than it's not that you just made plans.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 It's a no because you can't.

Speaker 2 You can't do that.

Speaker 2 You can't go seven days and then check in to see if we're still good for tomorrow i know that's not how i operate yeah but then i'm not even hurt feelings needy just right like that's a that's a i just didn't want to get into that right then it's like oh sorry or whatever he's gonna i don't want to really have that interaction with someone i don't really know although i did that was my instinct and i did ask for advice and i guess it was i got bad advice well i don't think there's good or bad this is aversion i don't know but he didn't respond again so like i'm not seeing him obviously um

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 1 and that's

Speaker 2 two strikes

Speaker 1 that's two strikes yeah with the matchmaker yeah ah

Speaker 1 yeah it's hard for me to not i have to really fight being judgmental of someone that would be using a matchmaker.

Speaker 1 Well, I am. No, the man.
Well.

Speaker 1 Because... Yeah, why do I want to be job?

Speaker 1 I want to say you can't farm out that activity. Like, you can't just pay your way into that.
It feels like a call girl service a little bit.

Speaker 2 You don't think that about the apps, but I guess you're the one scrolling.

Speaker 1 Me and you are just both mutually looking around and hoping to find somebody, I guess. But there's something about

Speaker 1 farming that out to somebody. Yeah.
It feels a little entitled. Like, I'm a busy person and I'm just going to have them go fine.
I like this, this, and this.

Speaker 1 I'm acknowledging that I'm trying to fight through that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because I can't.

Speaker 1 I'm sure there's a lot of versions that are not that.

Speaker 2 I don't think it's that dissimilar from telling all your friends, like, hey, I am single and I want you to keep your eye out for me. This is what I like.

Speaker 1 Yes, you know what it feels like if you were at the Four Seasons and you called the concierge and said, I need a date tonight. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like calling the concierge to get you a date is a little little bit the when I want to be judgmental of it is what it feels like. Yeah,

Speaker 2 I understand that.

Speaker 1 I understand. And they don't deserve you anyone that would call a concierge to get you.
Okay. Can I just say that?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But again, I can in my, I can, I can imagine Bill Gates, who I worship, going, I need help. I always get help from experts when I don't know what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 So why wouldn't I go see an expert to help me find love? Yeah. When I paint it that way and I make it a real person, then I'm right, I'm sympathetic to it and I'm supportive of it.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

Speaker 1 If you dare,

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Speaker 2 But I agree with you. I don't think in all these cases, it's not necessarily,

Speaker 2 I don't know how. I do think a lot of it is like, make this easier for me, but it is hard to date.
So I do think, you know, make this easier for me is a, is a real thing to want and pursue.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, of course, my ego also, when he, even when he said, I'm busy, I was like, bitch,

Speaker 2 I'm busy too.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're not the only. And I do think, like, I mean, I don't know what he knows about me.
Right. If he knows my last name, I don't know if he's, I don't know.

Speaker 2 It's kind of what you've talked about before of

Speaker 2 like the really, really, really gross part of being so insecure, but also

Speaker 2 like knowing your worth or like having like a

Speaker 2 strong ego too.

Speaker 1 Zero self-esteem and megalomaniacal thinking. That's, that's me.

Speaker 2 I know, but and I but I don't I don't think I'm megalomaniacal.

Speaker 1 You're not as extreme on either ends of the spectrum.

Speaker 2 Right. Exactly.
Yes. But I do think there are moments, and I guess it depends on who I'm interacting with.
But in this case,

Speaker 2 when he when he says, like,

Speaker 2 I'm so busy with no other question, you know, it's not like I'm so busy. What do you, you do? What do you, you know, it's just like, this is this is my life.
I'm busy.

Speaker 1 If you can work your way into my life, we've got a deal. That's that.
That's what's being triggered for me.

Speaker 2 Yes. And then what happens for me, which is equally gross,

Speaker 2 is you have to work your way into my life. This is not going to work because I'm you.

Speaker 1 Yes. I think I could create the statement that would perfectly sum you up.
Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm scared. Indulge me.
Okay. I'm very unattractive and I'm a hell of a catch.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 this is your story about yourself. I think you think you're unattractive, and I think you think you're a hell of a catch, which is the thing we're talking about.

Speaker 2 No, I don't think, no. Okay.
I don't think it's, I, I'm not, I don't think I'm unattractive.

Speaker 1 Okay, great. That's better than I was expecting you to say.
What?

Speaker 1 Ugly is always.

Speaker 2 Okay, yes, but I, I do think, I think I'm ugly, but that I, there is something

Speaker 1 overall.

Speaker 1 Yeah, overall, it's all right. So now I don't even feel bad.
Yours was worse. I'm ugly, but I'm a fucking catch.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess.

Speaker 2 Although when you say it out loud, it's like, no, I'm if I'm ugly.

Speaker 1 That's kind of what mine is. That's what mine's been since I was like 15.
Like, yeah, I'm not much to look at, but I'm a fucking catch.

Speaker 2 I hate myself. I need to read an upcoming guest book.

Speaker 1 But I really don't.

Speaker 2 I don't hate myself. I mean, that's, I don't.

Speaker 2 I do.

Speaker 1 You're a catch.

Speaker 2 And you know it.

Speaker 2 I do know it. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 If you could get the first end of that thing addressed,

Speaker 1 you.

Speaker 2 I don't know if it would help me to know that because I think it's, I actually

Speaker 1 like, really?

Speaker 1 Yes, because.

Speaker 1 You're also right in your honesty that you're also carrying a lot of baggage of

Speaker 1 insecurity. Yeah, I am.
And you're looking for reasons to save yourself the embarrassment of not being chosen.

Speaker 2 Yes, I am.

Speaker 1 So that's really happening. Yeah.
And it's strong.

Speaker 1 And I think if you felt hot

Speaker 1 and you knew you, I mean, you know, you've got a great career. You know, you're super smart.
You know, you're personable. You know you're good in a crowd.
Like, you know, all the other things.

Speaker 1 You're not insecure about any of those things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 So if you just added that I'm hot, I don't think your mind would let you go to a place that you're not going to get picked.

Speaker 1 Even if something didn't work out, you would would go like someone with great self-esteem. Right.
It wasn't a match.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's.

Speaker 1 It's not that I wasn't picked or I wasn't good enough. It's like the audition where it's like, yeah, you are a better actor than so-and-so, but they're fucking Chinese and I need a Chinese guy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess so.

Speaker 2 But I wonder if I just had like 100% self-esteem, no insecurities. I felt so good.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't know that I would ever find someone. I mean, I already am never finding someone.
So I guess what would be the difference, but yeah, you're in a zero risk.

Speaker 2 I guess that's true. Yeah.
But I think I would say that.

Speaker 1 And I don't say that to be mean. I say that to be, that's a really good part of your counter narrative CBT training, which is like

Speaker 1 there's, I'm not risking anything.

Speaker 1 But I think if you had those other components, I think you would, because there's also this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, which is like, you're not actively going out there and spotting someone and making it fucking happen.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm not. So you're in the incoming call business.
And guess what? You don't love the incoming calls. And then also you didn't select them.

Speaker 1 And there's all, but if you had those other things, it wouldn't be about like who's going to knock on your door one day.

Speaker 1 You're like, every time you saw someone that interested you at all, you'd be like, oh, I'm going to go make that fucking happen right now. What's up? What are you doing? Do you like coffee?

Speaker 1 Do you like bagels? Here's the things I like. And I cook.
You would hit them.

Speaker 1 And they, and you would, and if they didn't respond, you wouldn't give a fuck because you're like, I'm hot and I got a great career and I'm everything.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 yeah, I don't, I don't do that. I don't know how to do it.
I don't know what that's like. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 And I think most people don't.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and I think

Speaker 1 a lot of people are afraid to go pursue someone they want.

Speaker 2 It's scary.

Speaker 1 I think my success in life has solely been as I wasn't afraid or I overcame my fear to go say hi to everyone at the bar that I liked.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I just got in there and these other guys that they probably would have rather been with just never came up and said hi to them. And they were stuck with me.
But I'll take it.

Speaker 2 It worked out.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But okay, I have a bad question.
Do you think

Speaker 2 my stomach rounds?

Speaker 2 Also, this is kind of a ding-ding-ding because this is for Allison: conversations, dating, talk, talking. Yeah, so this is very relevant.

Speaker 1 It is accidentally.

Speaker 2 You do recognize, right, that, like, or am I wrong?

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 do you ever get to the face? Ah,

Speaker 1 Tiltas, Aror.

Speaker 2 Not everyone's physically beautiful. Or am I wrong about that?

Speaker 1 I think you're a bit wrong about that. Look, I'm not one that would deny there are things happening on a primitive level, which is like symmetry.

Speaker 1 We know these things are real. Yes.
We know fertility is somehow deduced by looking at, like things are happening that I will not be a denier of.

Speaker 1 In fact, I find it annoying when people pretend that some people aren't going to 98% of people are going to find Brad Pitt. Exactly.
We can acknowledge that that's the truth.

Speaker 2 Physically, just by looking,

Speaker 2 no personality. Right.
But Kristen, like, I think 100% of people will see, just see her face.

Speaker 1 Yes. But I can can think of, and I'm not going to name them out loud because I don't want it to run the risk of sounding mean.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But there are, I know many women who decided they were hot as fuck and sexy, and they are.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 And a lot, and they have made it in show business, some of them.

Speaker 2 Right. And you don't think.

Speaker 1 And you can do that.

Speaker 2 But you don't think on face. I mean, you can do.
I mean, I think confident, but that doesn't do anything to their, or you, you think it like morphs their face?

Speaker 1 It 100% morphs their face. yeah because they're carrying themselves like they're hot yeah you're like fuck they must they know they're hot yeah you then go what am i missing

Speaker 1 yeah and you go like oh yeah her hair is awesome yeah and then that's oh what a smile yeah look at her eyes or this and you go like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah

Speaker 1 but if they walk in like this like

Speaker 1 You're like, oh God, they're fucking

Speaker 1 They've been told they're a mess their whole life. This it it does, it does.
No, it does. You're right.

Speaker 2 You're right.

Speaker 1 But even and I just know because I'm speaking. I am the beneficiary of that.
That has been my angle

Speaker 1 for a long, long time.

Speaker 1 And it hasn't worked all the time. Yeah.
And Lagos are like, no, buddy, you're not fucking, you're presenting yourself as some 10. You're not.
That certainly has happened. No.

Speaker 1 Yes, no, it's happened a bunch of times. Well, but

Speaker 1 it's also worked a bunch. I think you

Speaker 2 potentially like personality

Speaker 2 more than your average person.

Speaker 1 I think you're right. And I think it weirdly is a sign of my confidence, which is I don't need a trophy woman.
I don't need to be seen with a woman that's hot.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I need to be with the coolest woman in the room.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 For sure. So sure, there will be men who don't prioritize that.
And what a blessing you've weeded them out. Yeah, but I'm like, there's no one left.

Speaker 2 No, there are a lot of I kind of think there's no one left. It's like the guys with the, with, who, who respect a woman's personality and like is attracted to that and like that,

Speaker 1 they're gone. They're taken.

Speaker 2 Like those people are

Speaker 2 for women, that is the most attractive thing.

Speaker 1 I think that is overly pessimistic. Okay.
Well, there's numerous reasons why great people find themselves single all the time. Annulment.

Speaker 1 Annulment's one of them. But But their partner didn't grow with them.
Right, right. You know, that's true.
Whoa.

Speaker 1 Okay. We're lost.

Speaker 2 We are lost indeed.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 But my thing about you shaving your sides has always been about that.

Speaker 2 I know, but that, I know, but it's not me.

Speaker 1 You don't know what me, like,

Speaker 1 you can't say because you've filled in what that means from something else you've seen.

Speaker 2 No, no. I,

Speaker 2 and then this is the other swing that I'm talking about. I know me.
Yeah, yeah. I am not unclear about

Speaker 2 me. Like I know

Speaker 2 who I am and I like that person. So I am not

Speaker 2 going to be like, I guess maybe I'll change up this whole me in order to be broadcast. Attract, exactly, to broadcast or be more like overtly attractive to people.

Speaker 1 I'm like, see, I think you were assessing that whole suggestion

Speaker 1 on aesthetic. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And my story about you is actually you had been a chameleon your whole life.

Speaker 1 And in this show, I had, we had friends who go, oh my God, I didn't know that side of Monica. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 You have become more and more yourself. Yeah, that's true.
And just with age, and you are unique on a level that shave shavesides make sense.

Speaker 1 You're thinking of it in this like really ironclad aesthetic and punk rock, but you're missing the point that I'm making.

Speaker 1 I know the point you're doing. Actually, I'm one of the most unique people here.
I'm one of the most original people here. And I'm different.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 And this thing is a visual cue that I am.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 2 I know what you're saying, but

Speaker 2 you might not be hearing what I'm saying, which is I get that. That's not who you are.
I am not someone who, and I like this about me. I am not someone who is like, look at me.

Speaker 2 I'm so unique. I'm so special.
For me, I'm like, you get to know me and you have that. You make your opinion.
And

Speaker 2 hopefully you come to that conclusion.

Speaker 2 But I am not here to, yeah, to like throw that in your face. And I like that about me.
I don't, I don't love when people need to do that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're like, I want want people to find out I have a great body.

Speaker 1 Literally.

Speaker 1 Well, that is. And I want people to find out I am like this very unique person.
Yeah. I hope everyone was like, you know,

Speaker 1 willing to be presented with one thing and then have to climb through some layers to find out all that. But that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 That's why I'm ugly. Like, if you have to get over the hump of my face, oh my God.

Speaker 1 Then

Speaker 1 I was warned about this, but

Speaker 1 you're right now.

Speaker 2 Okay, let's do it. We have to wrap it up.

Speaker 1 We gotta wrap up. Yeah, we really do.
Suzanne's almost here. Oh, my God.
Okay, great. We are resuming.
We had to break to interview, and I have since been out in the rain. Is it obvious?

Speaker 2 I see some spittle.

Speaker 1 I feel something on my forehead.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 I put my hair up. I would hate for.
Well, if we were completely up. I went to a white shirt, I think, too.
Oh, geez. That's a real.
Yeah. Okay.
Wow, wow. Well, the listener won't give a fuck.

Speaker 2 Okay, so some facts for Allison.

Speaker 1 Okay, great.

Speaker 2 I loved this episode. I thought she

Speaker 2 was really interesting. Just the most basic topic possible.
We really do take for granted. I've thought about it a few times in conversation.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the thing that stuck with me that I really liked is this like fallacy of naturalness, that everyone thinks that everything should happen organically, or that means it's not a good fit.

Speaker 2 Yes, exactly. And even just like boomerang questions, I've noticed from people.

Speaker 2 Even me, I think about ending on a question. You know, I've just been more aware, which has been interesting.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm such a boomerang question.

Speaker 1 So embarrassing.

Speaker 2 Group hierarchies in conversation. That's really fascinating to watch.
Yeah. Yeah.
I loved it.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 I'm going to play a tiny bit of Diet Pepsi, a song by Addison Ray

Speaker 2 that comes up in the episode.

Speaker 1 She's my kind of gal.

Speaker 1 It makes me rethink Diakov.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you might need to.

Speaker 1 I have to weigh her against my affinity for Bill Gates and Diakov.

Speaker 2 Oh, God, that's a lot to balance.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know what I like about that?

Speaker 1 That she likes that her boyfriend's got a Costco chain on. Oh.

Speaker 1 That says a lot.

Speaker 2 This is like Cookie Boy.

Speaker 1 This is like... I respect her.
She's not like trying to have some dude in Gucci. She's like, her man looks good in this Costco chain.
She's like a real chick. I'm going to have a diapsi.

Speaker 1 Do you like those things? Costco chain. Yeah.
I think that's a cool detail of it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean.

Speaker 1 Okay, go ahead. No, it's great.

Speaker 2 But it's exactly what I said about Cookie Boy.

Speaker 1 How so? Tell me, explain the connective tissue.

Speaker 2 Confidence.

Speaker 1 Cookie Boy. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's exactly the same. It's the same.

Speaker 2 Okay. How many people are mirror twins? About 25% of identical twins are mirror twins.

Speaker 1 That's not good enough. You want 90.
I got to stop saying it. I thought the majority of twins did this.

Speaker 2 I know, but you can still ask because maybe you'll find one of the 25 people.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 One in every four people I ask will say yes.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Okay, so we talked about coordination games, game theory for a little bit, which was interesting.

Speaker 2 And there's some classic ones. Prisoner's Dilemma, which we spoke about.

Speaker 2 The Battle of the Sexes. Okay, I'm going to read about that for a second.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 The game involves two players, boy and girl, deciding either going to a football game or going to an opera for their date, which respectively represent boys and girls' preferred activity, i.e.

Speaker 2 boy prefers football game and girl prefers opera. This example is a two-person, non-cooperative, non-zero-sum.
That's called a TNNC

Speaker 2 game with opposite payoffs or conflicting preferences.

Speaker 1 I don't know why it's zero sum because whoever wins is going to win everything and the other person's going to get nothing of what they wanted. That feels like the definition of zero sum.

Speaker 1 Okay, we'll keep going.

Speaker 2 Because there are two Nash equilibria.

Speaker 2 This case is a pure coordination problem with no possibility of refinement or selection.

Speaker 2 Thus, the two players will try to maximize their own payoff or to sacrifice for the other and yet non-zero sum for you if you lose. I guess.

Speaker 1 Zero sum is chess. You can't kind of win.
You can't win halfway. Right.
You either win or you lose. Yeah, exactly.
Poker, you could come with $200 and leave with $300. Right.

Speaker 1 Other people could also have $400. Someone could be down.
You know, there's varying degrees of success. Yeah.
But this feels like it's all or nothing. It would be zero sum.
It does feel zero sum.

Speaker 1 I see. You're either going to get to go see your thing you wanted or you're not.
You're going to be stuck at the opera. Right.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Thus, the two players will try to maximize their own payoff or to sacrifice for the other.

Speaker 2 And yet the strategy without coordination will lead to two outcomes with even worse payoffs for both if they have disagreement on what to do on their date.

Speaker 1 Okay. Which is all, they'll have to go to a prison cell or something as the third option if they don't agree.
It's got to be something worse than the football game for her and the opera for him.

Speaker 2 That's all it says.

Speaker 1 Okay. That's pretty good.
I like it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that gives you a lot of fun. It has a chart, but I don't get it.
But really quick, yes, if there's a third option that they are penalized with for not agreeing, then yes, it's not zero-sum.

Speaker 2 Sure. Maybe all of them have that element.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Now there's a matching pennies game.

Speaker 1 Ooh.

Speaker 2 This game is a two-person zero-sum game. In order to play this game, both players will each need to be given a fair two-sided penny.

Speaker 2 To start the game, both players will each choose to either flip their penny to heads or tails.

Speaker 2 This action is to be done in secrecy and there should be no attempt at investigating the choice of the other player. Let's keep it honest.

Speaker 2 After both players have confirmed their decisions, they will simultaneously reveal their choices. This concludes the actions taken by the players to determine the outcome.

Speaker 2 The win condition for this game is different for both players. For simplicity and explanation, let's denote the players as player one and player two.

Speaker 2 In order for player one to win, the faces of the pennies must match. Okay.
This means they must be heads.

Speaker 2 In order for player two to win, the faces of the pennies must be different.

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 2 The payoff/slash prize of this game is receiving the loser's penny in addition to your own.

Speaker 1 Okay. Two pennies.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Kind of outdated.

Speaker 2 Well, you'd keep playing and playing.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Looking at this matrix, we can conclude a few basic observations.
One, for all scenarios, there will be a winner and a loser.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Two, this is a zero-sum game where the payout to the winner is equal to the loss of the loser.

Speaker 1 Like it.

Speaker 2 Three, there is no pure strategy Nash equilibrium. We didn't, we don't know what that is.

Speaker 1 Right. Okay.
That would be a third.

Speaker 1 That has to be a third option that's less bad than the

Speaker 1 worst outcome and not as good as the ideal outcome.

Speaker 2 Non-cooperative games are generally analyzed through the non-cooperative game theory framework, which attempts to predict players' individual strategies and payoffs and in order to find the Nash equilibria.

Speaker 2 I love this.

Speaker 1 This is a wordage.

Speaker 2 This is so fancy and hard.

Speaker 2 I'm going to become an expert in game theory.

Speaker 1 Oh, I hope you do.

Speaker 2 I'm not smart enough for that, but I want to be. So maybe I will.
Okay, that's that. Kant's dinner party rules.
Conversation structure.

Speaker 1 We need to know these if we're going to host a Kant dinner party.

Speaker 2 I know, and I want to. Conversation structure: Dinner conversation should have three stages: narration, argumentation, jesting, light-hearted plays of wit.

Speaker 2 Code of secrecy, dinner party conversations should not be discussed with anyone outside of the dinner party.

Speaker 1 Ooh.

Speaker 2 Purpose.

Speaker 1 The goal of that one's going to be hard for me. If I hear something great at the dinner party, I will keep the anonymity of the speaker, but I might want to get the message out.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm going to violate that one. Okay.
I just want you to know up front. Not invented.
Okay. Purpose.

Speaker 2 The goal of Kant's dinner parties was to encourage civility and listening to others. Kant believed that participants would hear each other and feel heard.
Other dinner party etiquette tips.

Speaker 2 RSVP, arrive on time, be respectful of the host practices, beliefs, and environment.

Speaker 2 That's bad for you.

Speaker 1 You won't eat the gluten bread. Okay.

Speaker 2 Be a good conversationalist.

Speaker 1 You're not going to smoke cigarettes.

Speaker 2 Be a good conversationalist. Bring a gift or something for the party to enjoy.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 Parties should be limited to nine people and no fewer than three to avoid side conversations.

Speaker 1 Yeah, side conversations.

Speaker 1 I was just with my whole family and there was some side conversing.

Speaker 2 There was, and it was driving you a little.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a little.

Speaker 2 All right, that's it.

Speaker 1 That was everything. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, wonderful.

Speaker 1 Love you. Love you.

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