Armchair Anonymous: Dated a Criminal

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Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous.
I'm Dak Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman. And we're here today to learn about people who have dated criminals.
There's criminals out there, you guys. Spoiler alert.
It's all women who dated male criminals. And I didn't say it.
You did. I said it.
And then I went on to say I was delighted to see that one of the arsonists here in the city was a female. You love seeing bad women.
I do. I do.
I do. We got to take what little we can get.
I know. We got such a bad scorecard.

I know.

You know, anything that right sizes the.

Look, everyone's capable of all things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Women just do different kind of weird stuff.

Normally.

Yeah.

Statistically speaking.

Yeah, statistically.

Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So this is, you know, this ranges from comedic to insane to absolutely terrifying to bozo town with the whole gamut. So please enjoy dating a criminal.
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Take them slow. My life, I had them old.

But one thing you gotta know, I'm gonna keep on shining.

Hi.

Hi, can you hear us?

Oh my gosh, I can hear you.

Where are you at?

So I am in Ontario, Canada.

The story takes place in London, Ontario.

I've heard you speak of London before.

Halfway between Detroit and Toronto, home of McAdams.

That's right. Before we start, I did want to say something to the two of you that I thought was kind of cool.
So a few years ago, I bought a manifestation journal. And the very first thing that I wrote in that journal was that I wanted to meet Monica Padman, Dax Shepard, and Kristen Bell.
Oh, you got two out of three. You're 66% of the way there.
That's so fun. I believe in manifesting.
Oh, I do now. Okay, so you dated a criminal.
I did. Oh my God.
Please walk us through it. To set the scene, I was fresh out of college for social services.
I thought I was going to save the world. And I was also fresh out of a long-term relationship.
I was only 21. It was the tail end of high school through the first bit of college.
So I didn't know much about dating either. So I was fresh-faced all around.
And I decided to try online dating. I saw this picture pop up.
This dude, tattoos, cute eyes, really nice. His name was Dan.
I will use his real name. I'll tell you why after.
Okay, great. So pretty quickly, I realized he had some issues around substances and addictions.
So I thought, okay, I can save him, right? I mean, I took the class. Can we also add, you're in Canada.
You're no stranger to people drinking. For sure.
Yeah. So he would disappear a few days at a time, and then he would come back sometimes.
And he would be hungry and tired and promise it wouldn't happen again, and then he would disappear again. Do we know what his drug of choice was? It was crack and cocaine.
Yeah, okay. So he shows up at my door one day.
He is disheveled. Shirt was ripped.
He's sweating. He's pale.
He's looking out my window. I lived on a third story of a building.
He's darting back and forth going, Dan, what is the problem? What's happening here? And he's like, nothing, nothing. I said, no, something's going on.
Why are you looking out my window? He says, listen, last night I did a smash and grab at the hardware store. So he threw a brick or a rock or something into the window,

grabbed the quickest thing he could, a vacuum cleaner.

Oh, boy.

Good luck getting some money out of that.

Right.

And it's heavy.

So he runs with this vacuum cleaner.

He ended up selling it for drug money.

So now he's at my house.

No sooner does he finish telling me this story that there is a pounding on my door. They're like, police open up.
And Dan's saying, don't open the door. Don't open the door.
They must have heard him. They bust through three police officers.
They kicked the door down. I don't think it was locked.
They just came in. They use the door handle.
Okay. Yeah, they were nice.
So Dan takes off down the hallway towards my bedroom and three officers quick after him. Next thing I hear is one of the officers go, he jumped.
Third story. Three officers back quick the other way and out my door.
So I run to my bedroom window and look down expecting to see him down there because that's a big jump. But he's collapsed in front of the next building.

The police caught up with him.

I found out that adrenaline must have just kept him running, but he did injure his back.

The building I live in at the time is not very big.

Everybody knows each other.

I go outside.

Everyone's standing outside.

It's a big scene.

Police have to call an ambulance.

Ambulance almost hits him, backing up. Oh, oopsies.

So, let's go. each other.
I go outside. Everyone's standing outside.
It's a big scene. Police have to call an ambulance.
Ambulance almost hits him backing up. Oopsies.
So I didn't break up with him. I visited him in the hospital while he was recovering.
I stayed with him during his little stint in jail for his various crimes. What was the extent of his injuries while he was in the hospital? He injured his back and his ankle, but it was about three days he was in the hospital and then he was okay.
So I'm not even entirely sure what it was, but he had a police officer 24 seven in the room in the hospital with him until they took him to jail. And you stayed with him while he was in jail? I did.
Tell me about his redeemable qualities. She said cute eyes.
Tattoos everywhere. Actually, one of the tattoos, he came over one day and said, look at this and shows me he's got my name tattooed across his neck.
He was a hopeless romantic. An addict, yeah.
Shut up, Monica. I just adored him.
So fast forward to he's in jail. It's now a few days later.
And I'm noticing that everybody in the building, no one's talking to me. I go to check the mail and people are staring.
The only person that would talk to me was the man who lived directly below me. So I go knock on his door, sitting in his living room and I'm venting.
I'm like, no one's talking to me. I'm getting dirty looks.
What is going on here? He says, rumor has it you pushed Dan. Oh, hold up.
That's not where my, my mind went to, he had been stealing from everyone in the apartment. They thought you pushed your boyfriend out the window.
I'm trying to start my career. I'm like, no.
Then this man finishes telling me and his boyfriend walks to the room, looks me up and down with, oh my God, murderer. Oh, Jesus.
Oh, wow. So I had to move.
Oh, no. And did you stay with him? Two years I stayed with him.
So why I'm using his real name is because unfortunately he did pass away. From his addiction? He actually got clean.
He met a girl, had some kids. He was doing really well, but he got cancer.
And within a few weeks of the diagnosis had passed away. Wow.
Oh, that's so sad. It was, but today would have been our anniversary.
So I figure that's a little wink from him being like, go ahead and tell my craziness. I put you through hell, but let me give you two of your three on your list.
Manifestations. Yeah.
Oh, Monica, on behalf of all addicts, I'm sorry. It was wild, but great.
I'm sure you learned a ton. Did he go to treatment? How did he end up getting clean? We lost touch for a bit.
I believe he did go to treatment. Then we got back into touch when he was doing well.
And he had some kids and he was happy.

Did he ever give you an amends?

He did.

He told me about a few things he had stolen from me that I never found out about.

And he did apologize.

God, man.

Sweetest guy.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

Well, I'm sorry you went through that.

Me too.

Also, shame on you for pushing him out the window.

I might have helped get him sober, though. Yeah.
I'm just surprised he made it as far as he did with his injuries. He used to say, if they want me, they have to catch me.
Wow. And they sure did.
Yeah. Oh, well, Monica, I'm sorry you went through that.
But also, you know, if you're laying on your deathbed in 80 years and you have literally nothing of excitement to look back on, I don't know that that's a win either. So you got a chapter in your life that was harrowing.
Is that a positive spin? I think that's perfect. Well, it's lovely meeting you.
I want you to stay warm in this. What are they calling this one? It's some kind of cold snap.
You know this, Monica? Whole middle of the country's in some crazy. Yeah, I heard that.
Maybe even, is Georgia cold? It wasn't when I was there, and I haven't heard anything. So hopefully not.
All right. Well, Monica, happy new year.
We're wishing you all the best. Yeah, thank you.
Okay. Bye.
Bye. 40 degrees in Georgia.
It was a snow on Friday. Oh my God, snow? Get your skis out, Nermy.
How fun. 40 is the high.
Ooh, 26 is the low. Ooh, 26.
That is chilly. Hi.
Hi, how are you? I'm great, how are you? Good, is this Phoenicia? This is Phoenicia. Where are you? I am in Phoenix, Arizona.
Oh. You're not too far away from us.
Well, let me just list the things I love about Arizona. Of course, home of Flaky Jakes.
If you listen to the show, you know that's my obsession. But also, you can drive a dune buggy down the highway there.
Yeah, and on the main roads, there's like tractors and stuff. Yeah.
Love it. Okay, so you dated a criminal, which is very exciting.
So exciting. So exciting.
Please walk us through it. I'm single.
And like most singles, I go on dating apps. And I had a match with this guy.
I will say I was so taken back by his good looks that all logic went out the window. It's powerful, right? It sure is, especially with the blue eyes.
We matched. We started talking.
And we quickly moved the conversation to text. And he's like, I'll just call you.
And I was like, okay, cool. He calls me, we're on the phone and he's like, Hey, how do you pronounce your name? And I said, Phoenicia.
And he's like, Phoenicia, Phoenicia. I like how that rolls off my tongue.
And I was like, okay. It kind of came off as a little weird, but I, again, didn't think anything of it.
And so we start talking about where we should go out for our first date. And he's like, well, I want to take you bike riding at night near a canal.
And I was like, I don't think that's appropriate for a first date. What? Oh, my God.
Hold on. I want to take you bike riding at night by a canal? Yeah.
It's so specific. That's one step away from I want to take you on a date next to a six-foot hole I dug.
Hi, I want to murder you. Yeah.
So I was like, no, that's not appropriate for a first date. Let's just meet during the day in public.
So we agreed to meet for lunch the next day. Lunch goes well.
He's super good looking in person too. After the date, he walks me to my car and he's like, I've had a good time.
I want to see you again. And he kind of has me like up against my car because he walked me to my car and he's leaning forward.
He's like, we really need to go on that bike ride. And I was like, I don't want to go.
He's like, I think we really should go. I was like, I don't even have a bike.
He's like, I have a bike for you. We can go.
I know of a great spot. You can see the stars.
And I was like, I don't think so. Well, first of all, I just want to applaud your boundaries.
I think a lot of people when meeting someone that's gorgeous, they're trying to go along with anything just to keep everything moving forward. And so I'm already pretty impressed.
Although I also hope you end up on this bike ride so we know what happens on it. I don't think I would be here if I ended up on that bike ride.
Yeah, exactly. I'm glad you did not do that.
So he's like, I'll call you later. I'm like, okay.
So I'm driving home and I'm like, oh, crap. I did not ask him the one question I asked guys before I meet them.
Have you ever been arrested? Ooh. And I also looked him up before I go out with them because better safe than sorry.
But again, being so googly eyed about his good looks, I didn't think about it. And so I text him.
I'm like, hey, have you ever been to jail? And he's like, no. I was like, have you ever been arrested? He's like, no.
I'm like, OK. So later that night, he calls me and we're just catching up about our day.
And he brings up the bike ride again. Oh, boy.
He's like, you have to go. It's so nice.
At this point, I was getting really turned off. Yeah.
And just didn't understand why he was being so pushy and not respecting my boundaries. So I was like, we ended the conversation.
I got home. I looked him up online.
And to my shock, that previous month, he had been arrested for assault and battery, kidnapping, disorderly conduct. Oh my God.
And I was like, what the hell? Really quick. How do you find that info out? I think people might benefit from knowing how you discovered that.
You can find out a lot about a person with their phone number, which is kind of the scary part. So I had his phone number.
I went on one of the websites, just typed it in. His first name, last name came up.
Did they match who he had said he was? Yes, that did match. And the age too.
And then you take that information and depending on where you live, for us, it's Maricopa County. So like the Maricopa County Superior Court website, that's where you would go.
And then you click on criminal and you would just fill in their name.

And if they have anything for criminal or even legal or family, it comes right up.

Oh, wow.

Someone smart should put that in a one-step app.

A new app.

Yeah, safety screener.

And then you can type in someone's name.

And then it does all that stuff for you and just gives you a laundry list of what they've done.

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Okay, so when you read that stuff, you're like, holy smokes, what do you do next? So I text him, of course, because I'm curious. I want to push the limits a little.
And I was like, so one more time, have you ever been arrested? Have you ever been to jail? And he's like, no. And I was like, okay.
So I blocked him and I didn't talk to him again. Wow.
Did it cross your mind to alert law enforcement? Like, hey, this dude is trying to get people to go on this bike ride. He's clearly courting a victim.
Oh, I don't mean to make you feel guilty. No, I don't think it would work.
I didn't. I didn't want to toy with that and open a whole pot of worms that I probably wasn't equipped to carry.
But I was just like, what the hell? We also know from the stalking episodes, they can't do anything unless it's already happened, unfortunately. And because I didn't go on the bike ride, I don't have anything to report.
But for the longest time, when I would drive by a canal, I would just look at it and get like this e this eerie feeling and then for a while there were bodies that were being found in the canal have you looked him up how long ago was this this was about a year ago yes i did look him up after i made the submission and he pleaded guilty to some of the charges oh he did so he's likely in jail currently i would hope i don't think he is because i did see him on the app last week oh my god how can you admit to kidnapping and not be in jail good looks good lawyer i have no clue oh yeah he's on the apps that's bad oh yeah oh my god okay so ladies and dudes do a double check once you get that number, run it through Phoenicia's system and make sure they have no record of kidnapping. Yikes.
Before I got in a relationship last year, my friend did like an extensive background check on the guy. I will say I'm very diligent now and I don't get blindsided by the good looks anymore.
Yeah. Well, you did the right thing the whole time, it sounds like.
You kept yourself safe. You know, dudes weaponize those good looks.
You look at a lot of these serial killers and they're quite handsome. It can be captivating.
Because if a gargoyle invites you on a bike ride, it's easy to say no thank you. That is true.
Yeah, I always joke that if I did get kidnapped, it's because he had a good car. He was good looking or a puppy.
That's how he lured me in. Jax, okay, so I have been freaking out all week.
To say that I love you would be an understatement of the year. You've been one of my first crushes.
And as I've gotten older and learn more about you, I just fall more in love with you. Oh, you're playing a very cool.
Thank you. Well, I think it's great the work that you're doing and how you've been vulnerable and sharing your struggles with other people.
I used to work as a substance abuse counselor. Although I don't have experience firsthand with addiction, I have seen what it does to people and how it's hard for them to overcome it.
So I just love that you're vulnerable enough to share that with people. Thank you.
And if I could give one shout out to my kids, please. Yes, do.
We listen to your your show all the time i vet the episodes and then once i know they're kid friendly we listen to them but i just want to give out shout out to brody and liam my youngest was a little bum that he couldn't be here today he said little kids have stories to share too oh we should start a kid's version of armchair anonymous that would be hilarious i think you should but thank you guys so much love you too monica thank you all right take care bye hello hello can you hear us hey guys yes i can hear you look at this screen that is a freeze frame on punked oh Oh. 2003.
2003, yes.

I thought it'd be a nice little homage to you because it kind of reminded me a little bit about the story I'm going to share today.

Oh, wonderful.

Where are you?

I would like to use a fake name, but I am in the P&W.

We're going to go with Ariana for this story.

Ariana Grande.

Timely.

Kind of a little bit of a VPR connection because I'm going to call the criminal boyfriend Tom here. Okay, wait, what's VPR? I don't know.
Vanderpump Rules. Oh, I should have known that.
You know all about Vanderpump Rules? I don't know all about, but I know enough that I should have gotten that and I'm embarrassed and I'm going to cut it out. Okay, so Tom and Ariana, somewhere in the vague Pacific Northwest.
So I'm up here now, but the story actually takes place down in your region, San Fernando Valley. I'm a SoCal native, but I've been up here since a little bit after this story.
This story takes place between 2012 and 2013. I was about 22 at the time.
I'd been in a really serious relationship. It ended after six years and I was single for the first time.
And it'd been a tumultuous year for me. My mom was really sick with cancer.
I'd been taking care of my grandpa that passed away. And I just was kind of deep in the trenches of life and just trying to figure out what adulthood was going to look like for me.
I was single living alone. And I had also right after that long relationship ended, transitioned into a new job where I was an apartment manager and I was managing a pretty large multifamily, low income complex in the Valley.
I was in way over my head. I had a manager's unit that came with my salary.
And so I had a detached little four bedroom townhouse unit in the complex. And I had gotten two roommates at the time.
And so the three of us were living there. And what do you do when you're single and young in the valley and you don't know how to date? I started a couple online dating profiles.
2012, not a really familiar thing. I guess I should have known more about the red flags at many points in the story, but I didn't.
And so that's what led me to meet Tom. So he invited me and one of my roommates over one night, just come over and hang out.
We'll have some drinks. Can I ask really quick on on the dating profile what was it that caught your attention he definitely had like a bit of a bad boy element and like the pictures and his correspondence was he the opposite of the six-year-long boyfriend he was the opposite so we went over there had a little night of fun just hanging out pretty casual.
I do remember like his house was really gross and he was also living with his grandpa,

which I just remember catching the grandpa in a hospital bed in one of the rooms of the house.

We kept it casual for a few months.

I was still dating around.

It wasn't like anything exclusive.

But then one weekend he called me and said, hey, I need a favor.

My grandpa wrote me this check and I lost my wallet and I need your help. Can I sign it over to you? And you just put it in your bank account.
Like when the money clears, I'll give you a little bit as a kickback. A thank you for helping me out.
I was really young and naive and didn't realize that I was clearly about to commit some check fraud and I did it. Do you remember how much it was for? I think it was for $800, somewhere in that range.
Maybe he told me he'd give me like $200 out of it or something. But of course, my bank account ended up overdrawn.
My account was flagged for fraud. And I remember sorting through it and just letting it go and feeling this is like a bad guy in my life.
But I just continue to talk to him for no really great reason at this point. I just kind of kept getting sucked in.
Oh, I have a great reason. Your grandfather just died.
Your mother's super sick. You're in over her hair.
You need comfort. Any little burp of comfort you're going to seek.
That's impossible to resist in a moment like that. Yeah.
Thanks, guys. It's a big part of my life that I'm not super proud of, but kind of put a pin in that situation of the check.
And fast forward, the next probably six months are just utter chaos with this guy. He weasels his way into living in my apartment, says, oh, I could be another roommate.
You have a third room still available and just takes over every facet of my life, destroys the apartment, ultimately chases my roommates out. You know, I was doing a lot of shady stuff, but I also am not fully aware of what's going on and still kind of having like a blind eye to some of it.
There was a lot of introduction to some recreational harder drugs at the time and everything was just kind of a big, messy blur. And I was going down the road of fuck around and find out but just was enjoying the ride I guess as I was going along with it so fast forward again to close to my birthday later the next year in 2013 we had gone out to dinner to go visit my parents and we're driving home and the apartment complex is gated and I go through the gate and my unit is attached just to the left.
And as I'm pulling in, it's nighttime and it's dark, but there's streetlights in the parking lot. I can see what looks like people going in and out of my apartment, not roommates.
And I get a little bit closer and I can see what's going on is my apartment is being robbed all out in the open. Oh my God.
I see a couple of pickup trucks and a handful of guys carrying lamps. I see like an end table being brought out.
I can't imagine your possessions at 22 were all that valuable. They were not all that valuable.
It's like robbing goodwill at this point. Exactly.
As I'm looking at the situation unfold, I can see these guys are not strangers. I recognize them as a trio of kind of motorcycle gang slash Russian mobster vibe folks that my ex-boyfriend Tom at the time had introduced to me as friends a few weeks earlier.
When I met them, it was a very uncomfortable vibe as most of the company that he was keeping were, but they weren't friendly enough. There was a leader of the pack.
We'll call him Mishka. And Mishka, at one point when I had met him, had told me how he had a deep passion for martial arts.
He was wondering if he could teach class to the underprivileged children in my community that I was managing. Oh boy.
It was a really oddly specific request that stuck out a lot. And you know, I thought, okay, well maybe these guys aren't so bad, but also maybe they're not great.
And also within that timeframe, after meeting him, my ex-boyfriend had brought home like a felony amount of weed. There was at least a few big bags that I had seen and feeling way in over my head, but not realizing the level of criminal activity of the partner that I was in the trenches with.
You know, I saw the weed and then a couple days later, I didn't see it and I just didn't really ask any questions. I knew that he had sourced it from these guys and that's kind of where I left it.
So I assumed that whatever was going on had something to do with drug deal gone bad, some retaliation here of robbing my apartment. Although he was living there, it was filled with my stuff, of course, because he was not contributing a lot to the situation.
And so I see these guys and I'm like, what in the world is going on? And he tells me, go over to your manager's office unit, which was on the other side of the parking lot. Like lock the doors, close the windows.
I'll take care of it. Just don't call the police.
I go over there and I also have security cameras in there. So I can see everything that's going on in the unit.
And it was close enough that I could also kind of see through the window a little bit. I'm just watching for what feels like probably like a half an hour or so.
Wow. And I'm just seeing Tom just flailing his arms, yelling, trying to slow them down.
And they're not trying to like attack him or take him out or anything, but they're just continuing to like one by one take everything out into a handful of pickup trucks that they had brought in their motorcycles. And then the strangest thing occurred and I'm watching and all of a sudden Tom and Mishka just embrace in this like big bear hug.
I'm looking at the camera and it looks like there could be tears falling. I am not sure what's going on.
And then all of a sudden, like it's a flip of the switch. These guys just start systematically unloading everything back into my apartment.
Oh, what? Tom is helping them unload everything. I saw them embracing like another hug at the end.
And that was it. What if you came to find out they were just there to execute a deep clean? They're like, we got to get everything out to shampoo these carpets.
Check for something. Maybe they were looking for the weed.
Who knows? Tom just said it was a misunderstanding and kind of swept it under the rug. And of course, I knew that this was a building block to something not good brewing.
And these guys are in my home, in my place of work. Did you have a sense that if you asked Tom to leave, he wasn't going to comply? Like, did you feel like you had lost even the ability to get rid of him? Absolutely.
I narrowed this down for kind of a more humorous and entertaining aspect, but it was a pretty bad and dark period of time. Yeah, yeah.
And isn't it crazy we take on

the shame of having not advocated for ourself yet where it's so clearly the victim, but it's hard

to not feel some weird shame. I think that's why criminality can persist in the way it does.

Yes. Things didn't end so well for him either, which also circles back to those feelings of

Thank you. not feel some weird shame.
I think that's why criminality can persist in the way it does. Yes.
Things didn't end so well for him either, which also circles back to those feelings of a lot of guilt and shame. But I'll loop back to where this all ties together.
So I swept it under the rug, wanted to believe that was it. Spoiler, it wasn't.
So about another month passed by. And at this point, our relationship is really falling apart, which is good.
He was not staying in the apartment with me anymore it was a saturday night and i'm just blowing off some steam partying a bit with some friends and another kind of romantic partner that i had who was a close friend kind of the person i really wanted to be without the time but i was hindered by this leash from the villain in the story and in any case we're part, we're doing a little Molly. I hadn't talked to the other guy friend in the story since then.
And I called him last night in preparation and said, Hey, do you remember this crazy night 12 years ago? And he was like, Oh my God, you know, I got a bad memory, but I remember that like it was yesterday. Like, let me tell you, it was not cool.
So he helped me fine tune the details. And there was him and two friends and rolling balls in the trenches at this point.
He reminded me we were doing like a little massage train on the ground. We have the lights, the music.
And then all of a sudden, the front door swings open. And in comes this Mishka mobster.
Oh, my God. He prances right in and is like, hey, what are you guys doing?

You having a party?

Where's Tom?

And we're obviously deep in an altered state, hence why my door wasn't locked.

And I was just incoherent to the situation, but also trying to figure out, is this guy going to shoot us?

What is going on here?

What is he looking for? Two others of the pact were just hanging out by the door outside. So it was not a great setup, quite uncomfortable.
I'm sure it would have been a lot worse if I was in a sober mind state. But my friend recalled that he came and just like sat at the table, was like, we've been looking for Tom for quite a while.
I know he's got to be here. I mean, I see his dog here.
We had a dog at the time that we had got during our relationship and he had left the dog with me and fled to San Diego. And so I had the dog and it's like, I don't know where he is.
Look around. He's not here.
I don't have anything to do with whatever is going on with you guys, but you need to go. And he really was hung up on the dog aspect.
Like there's no way this guy's going to leave his dog behind. He loves his dog.
He's like a genius detective all of a sudden. He thinks he's really figured something out.
My friend also recalled that he definitely saw that they were armed and that he had a gun on him. I blocked out a lot of elements of this, but I'm sure that had something to do with the level of interrogation.
It was such a creepy demeanor. Like, he was friendly, but obviously he was not there to hang out.
And he ultimately was like, all right, well, make sure you let him know we're looking for him. He did ask on the way out.
And remember, I'm really serious about that martial arts class for the kids in the community. Oh my God.
Please give me a call to talk about it. It's so weird.
It's like a Guy Ritchie movie. The guy also really wants to teach someone martial arts.
Yeah, he was not letting that part go. So he left.
We were okay. And shortly after, things were quickly unraveling.
And obviously, I was trying to desperately get out of this relationship. And I was lamenting to a mutual friend.
I just feel so stupid. I shouldn't.
No, not that first red flag of the check fraud incident. When we were first dating to kick this guy to the curb.
And she laughed and said, you know, he's done this before.

Don't you know his Judge Judy story?

Oh, God.

And I said, no.

I got on the computer that night, did a little Google search.

And there he was as a defendant on Judge Judy for scamming a very innocent foreign exchange

student that he had met at Six Flags Magic Mountain. Oh, my God.
For check fraud. Guys, this is so bizarre.
It was not great. So it was a pretty full circle moment and pretty embarrassing, but also like, well, this is what it is.
But I was ultimately able to break free from him after a couple more months of turmoil. And I decided pretty quickly after the second interrogation incident in my apartment that I just needed to get away.
I was in way over my head with a very active criminal. So I ended up moving up here to the PNW and it was the best decision of my life.
I met my husband a year or so after I moved up here and we have a great blended family and a beautiful five-year-old daughter. She just celebrated her fifth birthday, actually, two days after your big birthday, Dax.
Oh. You guys are almost birthday twins.
Did you ever find out through the grapevine what happened to Tom? He couldn't have been long for this world and freedom. I did.
After we split up and I came up here, he moved, I think, to live with family in Indiana, presumably on the run. God only knows how many other activities were going on and people were looking for him.
But I did learn from a mutual friend a few years after he'd been here that he ultimately committed suicide. He did.
Even though he brought so much misery and chaos and just destruction to my life and to his, there were obviously parts of him that were redeeming. And it's hard when you go through such a dark period of time with somebody and have a lot of remorse and resentment.
But I felt like when that happened, it helped me understand that a lot of his actions towards me were coming from something that I could not comprehend. You're not generally choosing that life path because things are going well and you're feeling good.
Kind of an AA thing, but it's often helpful to remember that the people that you resent and have harmed you, they're the ones that will live with their mistakes. You don't live with their mistakes.
You live with your mistakes and people live with their own mistakes. And the bill comes due.
No one really gets away with anything. Maybe they don't go to jail.
Maybe they don't die. But the suffering is going to be there.
You can't avoid that. That's very good insight.
It's been a long time. I really put a lot of this behind me and I'm really happy and have made a lot of good choices since then.
But it's a tough part of my story overall, but it was also the defining moment and action that really changed everything. And, you know, I fantasized about telling you guys some portion of this story for a long time.
It's a real dream come true. Well, we're really grateful you shared it.
Yeah, that's a wild one. I remember hearing in an episode a couple of weeks ago, you guys were like, oh, we need to do like a time you were dating a drug dealer or dating a criminal.
And then here it is. Here we are.
It's going to be my time to shine. Somebody's listening.
They're like, I know they're going to have a, if you've been trampled by an elephant prompt someday. Just rest assured.
Every prompt will come. A lot of crazy things that I told them just this little part but it was a doozy it branched

out into a lot of other crazy shit yeah i'm glad you lived through it and it made you who you are

stronger thank you all right thanks guys

you Hi. Hello.
Sorry, I was just polishing off my pre-workout drink. How are you? I'm good.
How are you guys? Wonderful. It looks like you're in a yurt.
Did you make a fort? Well, my cousin and my best friend made a fort for me.

Oh, that was nice of them.

It's like every blanket in my house.

And I think there are brooms stuck to chairs.

It's pretty impressive.

People get really innovative.

Let's pray there's not a structural collapse mid-story.

One of them's a contractor, so I have faith.

You're in good hands.

There's integrity in that fort. Yeah, exactly.
Brittany, where are you in the world? I'm outside of Portland, Oregon in Beaverton, Oregon. The home of my brother.
Beaverton's lovely. It's wonderful.
Okay, so you dated a criminal. I did.
This was in 2012. I was 18, almost 19 in college, away from home for the first time.
Where were you at? Down in Southern Oregon. I went to go visit a friend who went to a different school about three hours away.
He was having a party, lived in this big house with a bunch of roommates. And I meet, sorry, there's a cat intruding on me.
I meet this guy at the party and we just instantly clicked. Super handsome.
We talked the whole night. He said that he wasn't a student.
He was actually an assistant professor at the school, but he was close to our age, just a little bit older. And yeah, I had a great time with him.
And when I leave and go back home, we keep texting and talking constantly. And a week or so goes by.
I knew so much about him. He was really close with his family.
His grandparents took him in when he was little because his mom died really tragically. He told me about his ex who was a liar and a cheater and just awful.
Anyways, I decided to go back up and meet him for a weekend. I was really looking forward to it.
I get there and we're walking up to his room and he just mentions something as we're walking in. He's like, oh yeah, I just vacuumed for you.
And we get in there and the floor is disgusting. I don't know why he would lie about that, but it was obviously a lie.
Don't really think anything else of it. I stay the night and I had to go home the next day.
But as I'm getting ready to go, I get a Facebook message and it's from someone I don't know, but I recognize the name and it's his ex-girlfriend. Oh, okay.
The lying, cheating bitch. Yep.
And I read it and he's staring at me and it says, I want you to be aware of D. I wish someone would have warned me.
He ruined my life. And I just stop and look up at him.
And I literally was like, oh my God, she is such a bitch. She's crazy.
You lied about the floor, but you were right about the ex i know it's so ridiculous i go back to my school life goes on we keep talking he says that he wants to come visit me next and his car is in the shop or something so he gets on a greyhound bus to come see me i pick him up from the bus station and he gets off he has like a giant suitcase a duffel bag and a backpack backpack. Oh boy.
And he's just going to stay one night with me. Oh no.
Whatever. Who cares? Maybe it's full of presents for me.
I don't know. And we go back to my apartment, have a great time.
Things seem normal. That was a Friday or a Saturday on Sunday.
I'm like, Hey, what time do we need to go back to the Greyhound station? And he just kind of like, well, I have a surprise for you. I took some time off work and fall break is coming up soon.
So I don't have to go back. I get to stay.
Oh, God. Now, really quick, from Friday till Sunday, is your attraction to him staying completely consistent and strong? Is it growing or is it dissipating? Are there other things where you're like, he's not as great as I thought.
That would happen here and there, but then he would do something that made me feel so special. Yeah, love bombs.
So him telling me like, I'm not leaving was the first time I remember really feeling off about him though. But again, whatever, I'm 19 and don't yet know how to stand up for myself.
And he stays, he doesn't have a car there. So he is driving me in my car to school every day while he just sits at my house.
One day I remember coming home and I had had $200 sitting on the counter and I'm like, Hey, where did that money go? Well, what money? Oh, the money that was right here. No one else has been here.
What do you mean? Oh yeah. Oh, that money.
Well, um, I remember how you said that you wanted to stop spending so much. Oh, I hid it from you.
Oh, yeah. Oh, that money.
Well, I remember how you said that you wanted to stop spending so much.

Oh, I hid it from you.

Oh, God.

Yeah, thanks, Dad.

Also, what a dumb excuse.

I get pissed. I'm like, where is it? Give it back.

Well, I put it in the TV speaker.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, I said we. I.

My apartment. My life.
Say it on repeat. Right? It's been a long time.
It's still a problem, apparently. You remember those big screen TVs, but they were boob tubes and they had the speakers on the bottom and they sat on those.
He's like, I pushed it through there. So if you really want it, I can get it out.
But I'll have to take the whole TV apart. My cash stayed in the TV.
I don't know. I sort of believed it.
I wasn't fully there, but I also kind of believed it, which is terrible. Also, how would he get it in if he couldn't get it out? Well, in addition to being an associate professor, he's also a master mechanic.
But he said he couldn't get it out without taking apart the TV. He said he folded it up and like shoved it in there.
Okay. Okay.
A while later, I don't remember exactly how long, but probably a month or so. And weird things happen in between.
He's still there. He's still there a month later.
Yep. I am going to visit my mom who lives in Hawaii and I'm going to go for like a week or 10 days or something.
So he drives me and of course he's going to stay at my apartment and take care of my dog. Really quick.
And this is not to try to shame you for not poking holes, just a genuine curiosity. Once it had gone beyond two weeks, which was the initial concept, which is spring break or whatever the break was, what was his explanation for why he wasn't returning? That he wanted to be with me and he was going to find his own place down here.
Also, I was just at a point in my life where I had very low self-esteem. And the fact that this boy was showing interest in me and making me feel special, it was like, I got to hold on to it.
Yeah. So he drives me to the airport and drops me off in my car, kiss him goodbye.
He drives away and little do I know that's going to be the last time I ever see him. So get on the six-ish hour flight, land, turn my phone back on.
And I have 37 missed calls. Oh my God.
And so I'm panicking. And there are a lot from my dad and there are some from one unknown number.
And so I listened to the first voicemail and it's my dad. And he's just like, B, in the past few hours, over $5,000 has been racked up on my credit card that you have for emergencies.
And you better hope it wasn't you because cops are involved. And I'm just like, what the fuck? And I rip open my wallet and there it is in the back, never touched.
I have it. Right.
And I listened to another voicemail and the other number turns out to be a detective. Find out, my dad reported this.
Detective goes to my apartment, finds my front door wide open. My dog was gone.
I guess a neighbor had found my dog running around the parking lot and scooped him up. Detective said that he doesn't know what I had in there, but it looks like things might not be right.
There's nothing with the TV. The TV is huge, but there's no back then like DVD player and cable box.
All of that's gone. And my car, of course, is not there.
Oh, my God. Just a nightmare.
Brittany, can I ask you a quick question? Please. Yeah.
You got a little emotional at that part. And I'm curious, when dad enters the equation, are you so ashamed he knows this? Is that why? I didn't even first go to it's him.
Okay, okay, okay, okay. I was confused and angry that my dad could think I did this.
And then feeling like I'm going to have to defend myself because I have the card. It's not like I lost it.
I never even touched it. It's for emergencies.
But then when my car is not there, my dad, of course, owns my car, just an old Camry, but he reports it's stolen. And Dee and I were texting a little bit.
My dad was like, it's got to be him. And the detective said to just act normal if I can.
Don't talk to him about this. And so we didn't talk on the phone.

I remember saying I had bad service and I'm there with my mom. She's helping me.
So a few days go by and the detective calls me again. And he says, we followed up with some of the stores that the purchases were made.
One of them was the Walmart right next to my house. And there were physical purchases in the store while I'm on the plane.
And he goes, we have the video of who did it. And he emails it to me and I pull it up and it's loading and it's grainy and it's black and white.
And I'm watching it like stops on the purchase and it's not him. It's not D.
Oh, it's not. Is it the girlfriend? Plot twist.
It's a woman, but she's older.

It wasn't the ex-girlfriend.

But so now in my mind, I'm like, oh, thank God it's not D.

He's still wonderful-ish.

Wonderful-ish.

I'm not dating a terrible person.

You feel validated in your own choices in life.

It's like, oh, I didn't pick this horrible person.

That's what the relief really is.

My judgment isn't this bad. Yeah.

And so if you more days go on. I get another

call from the detective and he says, we found your car. D was driving it.
They pulled him over.

I guess he instantly confessed to everything. Oh, really? He had somehow made a copy of the

credit card. He had been making purchases before this with it, but they were spread out and not major.
He said, I'm going to return all of it. I was just borrowing it.
They arrest him, of course, take him to the little jail in my tiny town. And the detective then tells me, you need to know the phone call that he made while we had, past tense, had him in custody.
I don't remember if he played the recording for me or if he told me, but the woman answers and he says, Mom, they caught us. Oh, they caught us.
Oh, my God. This is wild.
I did not see Mom entering the chat. Me either.
Mom is supposed to be dead. Oh, I forgot that part.
Oh, my God. A mother-son con team.
So she's like kind of Munchausen-sy, I guess, a little bit. He sucks, but she probably sort of infected him.
What more did we find out? They released him. His arraignment is going to be two days later.
Of course he doesn't show up. It was over 20 charges and they issue a warrant for his arrest and time goes by.
And meanwhile, I am trying to find him. I'm doing my own investigating and I get, I would say, close to obsessed with investigations and criminology.
And they never found him until two years ago, 2022. Oh my God.
He got pulled over. No.
They arrested him, released

him again. Oh god.

The system. And he

didn't show up again but

in the end my interest

in investigating and criminology

and all these things led to

I am now a licensed private

investigator. Wow.

Wow. Oh my god.

There are a lot of plot twists

in this thing. A lot of these stories

are people making lemonade out of

Thank you. investigator.
Wow. Oh my God.
There are a lot of plot twists in this thing. A lot of these stories are people making lemonade out of bad rotten lemons.
There were a lot of other things between Ben and when I got licensed about a year ago that kept pushing me in this direction, but I love it. And I'm working on murder cases.
Did you ever reach out to the ex-girlfriend who warned you to find out what she had gone through? I didn't. I would be very curious to know how similar her experience was.
Yeah. I don't know why I haven't really thought about that.
You should tell her it was the mom. Well, maybe she knew.
Well, don't you think she would straight up say in the message, look, he's a con man with his mom. It's a mother and son con operation.
I know it sounds crazy, but it's real. Just ask him.
Well, you would have gone, mom's dad. Boy, she's a bitch and she's nuts.
And now I'm the crazy new ex-girlfriend. I just learned about the 2022 arrest because I am a PI and I was able to pull all these documents.
And I was just going over it last night. And was he arrested just from the skipping bail on the previous thing or were there new charges? I just looked based on the case number from my case back in 2012, but there probably are more.
Yeah. I mean, he's probably had 12 more years of being a scoundrel.
That's so long. Yeah.
And then the fact that they just let him go again have you learned nothing right wow that's really something yeah mom they caught us oh that's chilling you're right though monica if we want to attempt to be as generous as possible how fucked up was his childhood that his mother has enlisted him in her criminal pursuit? I mean, what kind of chance do you have if your mom is bringing you in? And I wonder how much of the other things, because obviously most of what he told me was a lie, but I especially think about his family because he would talk about, he's so close with his family and his grandparents and his aunt and tell me all of these stories like is that still happening no while this is happening i think they're not real all just made up in his head oh who knows i think that's the most gruesome part of these experiences is like trying to parse out what was real and what wasn't real and then ultimately you're trying to answer, did he actually like me or love me? Somehow you're trying to hold on to building a case for that. So you need him to have been truthful about some portion of it so that the other thing, you're just forced into that position.
And it really fucked with my head for a long time to already have that low self-worth and then to think that I found somebody who loves me for me.

And then it's like, oh, no, I was just a target.

It changes your worldview a bit, right?

And it scares you about your own ability to protect yourself.

It makes you feel more vulnerable in the world.

It also confirms the wrong view you have of yourself. Like, oh, yeah, this thing I thought I was unlovable.

I guess I am because this was the proof. it's cruel yeah it took until 2020 for me to i think fully snap out of what happened there was a marriage a divorce and to be like okay no i am worthy i'm a badass yeah yeah you are we already know that i'm the lead character motherfuckers exactly so here we are, man.
I do think this kind of experience does ruin a lot of people. So I'm happy for you.
You're tough. Thank you.
Well, Brittany, this has been a delight. And what a series of twists and turns.
What a story. Thanks for sharing.
And now I have somebody if I need to investigate anyone in the Pacific Northwest. Absolutely.
I got you. If you ever start investigating Dave Shepard for something, just do me a solid and overlook it all.
Don't take any cases against my family members up there. I promise I won't.
Self-employed. I get to choose.
That's a deal. All right.
Well, wonderful meeting you, Brittany. Thanks for telling us that.
You guys too. Thank you so much.
All right. Take care.
There's a couple patterns here, patterns here right we saw right away there's something about a long-term breakup and then the rebound that seems to be a little fertile for something almost all of them had just gotten out of a long relationship in high school it's like they had their first kind of really innocent relationship and then the next swan you're a little vulnerable for whatever reason. Very.
Again, this sense of, am I worth loving? Probably not because this other relationship didn't work. So you're just looking for confirmation.
I only speak for myself. When you're young and you're in these long relationships and it follows that pattern that relationships follow, which is like the good chemicals have worn off.
the excitement has worn off. And now it's just that here and now chemicals.
And you're a little bored with the person. And I can imagine your natural response to that is like, I need someone more exciting.
The problem was not that that's the pattern of relationships. It's that, oh, I need someone a little more exciting next time.
Maybe. Although with Phoenicia, he was just handsome.
It's just sad that people. Pry on other people? Yeah.
Yeah. That's a bummer.
You know, I met someone at the Golden Globes of all places. A woman who said, hey, I want to thank you for that narcissist episode.
It helped me realize that my mother is a narcissist and answered a lot of things. So I guess my only hope for this would be if you're in a situation that is mirroring any of these details, the quicker you pull the plug, the better.
And it's not a reflection of you. No.
It's really hard to see that in the moment. It is.
Well I love you, and I'm really glad that no criminal has ever preyed on you, Monty. Not yet.
Fingers crossed. Yeah.
Is that a New Year's resolution to not ask me to knock on wood? Because that was a knock on wood moment, if there ever was one. You're right.
It wasn't a resolution. In fact, I think I knocked on wood yesterday.
Okay. You did.
There was a moment. But maybe I'm cutting back.
All right. I love you.
Love you. Do you want to sing a tune or something? We don't have a theme song.
No. Okay, great.
We don't have a theme song for this new show, so here I go, go, go. We're're gonna ask some random questions and with the help of arm cherries we'll get some suggestions on the flyer rindish on the flyer rindish enjoy follow armchair expert on the wondry app amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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