S4: EP 4 — Shock to the Conscience

Transcript

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Speaker 26 Hey guys, before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're looking for new stories of betrayal for our weekly betrayal series, which returns in August.

Speaker 26 If you've experienced betrayal and feel ready to share your story, now is a great time to reach out. Email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
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Speaker 29 She starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just got up and started to walk away.

Speaker 30 And then, as we were walking out of their house, she's following behind us, and then she says,

Speaker 30 I'm going to ruin your fucking lives.

Speaker 26 I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 4. Shock to the Conscience.

Speaker 26 In our last episode, we saw Joel Kern's double life, a side-by-side comparison of two different realities.

Speaker 26 But those two realities were on a collision course because Joel's reckoning day at the Colorado Springs Police Department was rapidly approaching.

Speaker 26 This was the day he'd be forced to answer for his lies. And this time it wouldn't be Caroline who was left in disbelief.
It would be Joel's co-workers.

Speaker 26 Officers he'd worked closely with for over two decades.

Speaker 26 Men he graduated from the police academy with.

Speaker 26 Men who'd been close friends and mentors.

Speaker 26 In March 2022, Joel was under investigation at the CSPD because a couple came in to file a complaint against him. The wife confessed to having sex with Joel in his police car.

Speaker 26 She was making amends for her actions, and part of that was alerting the department that one of their officers was up to no good.

Speaker 26 So the department launched an internal investigation and dug into the claims. Then they called Joel in for his official interview with Internal Affairs.
He was even able to bring an attorney.

Speaker 26 His future hinged on what happened in this meeting.

Speaker 26 We've got it all on tape, and we want you to hear it.

Speaker 25 Good to see you again.

Speaker 31 It's been a while.

Speaker 31 Okay, Joel.

Speaker 31 Be knowing the form.

Speaker 32 You've been up here, so I'll let you read that.

Speaker 26 They start the interview by having Joel sign a Garrity advisement. It's an acknowledgement that he's under investigation.

Speaker 26 It explains the process, and most importantly, it requires him to answer truthfully. After he signs this document, a lie could mean termination.
Sir.

Speaker 31 Okay, all right, we'll get started. It's Lieutenant Raphael Chancellor with the Colorado Springs Police Department Internal Affairs Section.
Today is Monday, March 21st, 2022.

Speaker 31 I'm interviewing Lieutenant Joel Kern in regards to Internal Affairs Case 22-023.

Speaker 31 Also present are Lieutenant James Sokolik and Lieutenant Kern's attorney Joan John Newsom.

Speaker 31 Joel, I know you were up here, so before going on the record, where you provided a type Garrity advisement?

Speaker 28 I was.

Speaker 31 Did you sign that voluntarily?

Speaker 33 Yes.

Speaker 31 Do you have any questions regarding the Garrity advisement? No. Okay.

Speaker 31 Will you be answering all of our questions concerning this matter truthfully today?

Speaker 33 Yes.

Speaker 26 You may remember in episode two, Joel's boss, Commander Stroessner, reported a conversation he had with Joel where Joel denied knowing the couple and was worried that someone was impersonating him or filing a false complaint.

Speaker 26 Stroessner believed him.

Speaker 31 This is now under Garrity. This is your opportunity to just let us know what happened.
I don't want you to feel tied to whatever you said to Stroessner, anything that was said there.

Speaker 31 Is that good? Is that fair?

Speaker 33 I'll tell you exactly what I told you.

Speaker 33 Okay.

Speaker 31 Tell us, why do you think those allegations against you were brought forward?

Speaker 34 I don't know why specifically these allegations were made, but

Speaker 36 I have some ideas.

Speaker 35 I think maybe the

Speaker 35 persons making the allegations got in over their head or something, and I suspect that they're catfished me.

Speaker 38 in whatever communication they were having.

Speaker 26 But before they got into that, Chanza wanted to focus on the incident at Joel's house.

Speaker 26 The day a stranger showed up accusing Joel of having sex with his wife and his police cruiser.

Speaker 39 See, that's my wife out there, the one that you fucked in your cruiser?

Speaker 40 What are you talking about?

Speaker 26 Joel wasn't aware that the man had secretly recorded the entire encounter. And Joel didn't know that the man gave the recording to the CSPD.

Speaker 26 Chanza gave Joel an opportunity to recount what happened from his point of view.

Speaker 34 I was just in shock that someone was standing there saying this to me.

Speaker 28 So

Speaker 35 I said, I don't know who you are, but I'm not fucking your wife or anybody else's wife.

Speaker 28 And

Speaker 28 he

Speaker 38 looked at me again and then he said, well, I don't even really know if it's you.

Speaker 36 And if it's not you, I'm really sorry.

Speaker 36 And I took pause for a second because I'm like, you're coming to my house, banging on my front door, and then you drop this bomb on my household, and then you're going to say that you don't even know if it's me.

Speaker 34 So I said, you need to get the fuck off my property.

Speaker 34 I walked onto the sidewalk so I could look in the car just to see who this is.

Speaker 35 And when I saw the person, I didn't recognize them at all.

Speaker 28 And then.

Speaker 34 She gets out of the car and then

Speaker 38 like she's staring at me and then she has these huge,

Speaker 32 huge sunglasses on, like, so huge I couldn't even see her face really.

Speaker 36 But they weren't like total blackout, and I could see through the sunglasses that looked like she had like two black eyes.

Speaker 30 And she's crying.

Speaker 26 It seemed like Joel, in an effort to deflect the attention off of his own actions, was slyly suggesting this man was beating his wife.

Speaker 42 And then this guy slams the back of

Speaker 28 their car and says, is that him?

Speaker 38 Like screaming at her. And she startles

Speaker 28 and she starts to cry even more.

Speaker 32 And then she like shakes her head yes and then gets right back into the car.

Speaker 28 And then

Speaker 32 he said, well, the least that you can do is apologize for ruining my family.

Speaker 38 And then so I started walking away and I said, I have nothing to apologize for because I don't know you.

Speaker 28 I don't know your wife.

Speaker 35 I'm not fucking your wife.

Speaker 36 I'm not fucking anybody else.

Speaker 38 And then I just started to walk back in my house.

Speaker 32 And then they drove away eventually.

Speaker 31 So you have never seen either one of them?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 31 Going back to catfishing, you made a

Speaker 31 comment about that at the beginning when we opened up.

Speaker 31 What does that have to do with them coming to your front door?

Speaker 32 Like two years ago, there was a

Speaker 42 potentially like a breakup of friendships with like

Speaker 34 four different couples.

Speaker 26 It seemed like Joel had come prepared with a backstory. He says it all started at a dinner party that he and Caroline attended.
It was with a group of couples. An argument broke out.

Speaker 26 The couple hosting got into it with Caroline and Joel. The wife, in particular, was enraged.

Speaker 29 So she started screaming and yelling at us, and we just got up and started to walk away.

Speaker 30 And then as we were walking out of their house, she's following behind us, and then she says, I'm going to ruin your fucking lives.

Speaker 26 The story was over the top. Ridiculous, even.
Then it got even stranger. Joel said another woman got pulled into the conflict.
And the two women teamed up to take down the Kerns.

Speaker 36 There was another couple who was friends with this lady that said that she's going to fucking ruin my life or ruin our lives.

Speaker 28 And she, when we were all friends, used to brag about how she would make fake social media accounts and then converse with people using the fake account.

Speaker 42 Her idea of fun was to impersonate a friend of a person that they already have on Facebook.

Speaker 38 And then she would start conversing with them on the instant messaging.

Speaker 26 Chanza asked more questions about the women Joel believed targeted his family, but eventually they got to the heart of the matter.

Speaker 31 Have you ever had any kind of sexual contact inside your city-assigned take-home vehicle?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 31 Have you ever had any sexual contact with anyone while on duty?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 44 Okay.

Speaker 31 So the allegations that are being brought against you are absolutely not true.

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 26 Chanza then showed Joel a photograph of a woman. It was not the the woman who filed the complaint.
It was someone else.

Speaker 31 Have you ever met this lady?

Speaker 41 No.

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 31 Have you ever uploaded WhatsApp on your work cell phone number? No.

Speaker 31 Obviously, you're aware we took your phone, and as you may imagine, we dumped your laptop.

Speaker 31 What if I were to tell you that you did communicate with someone directing them to go to WhatsApp?

Speaker 31 Would that refresh your memory?

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Speaker 26 lieutenant chanza began to lay out the evidence they'd collected immediately joel's tone shifted so did his story

Speaker 31 these guys worked with joel for years this was the last situation they wanted to be in obviously you're aware we took your phone and as you may imagine we dumped your laptop.

Speaker 31 What if I were to tell you that you did communicate with someone directing them to go to WhatsApp? Would that refresh your memory?

Speaker 28 I don't remember in what context.

Speaker 38 You said that her name's what?

Speaker 31 Would it help you if I told you she has a Denver number?

Speaker 28 Yeah.

Speaker 28 I met her at a brew function.

Speaker 31 I'm sorry, at a what?

Speaker 36 A brewery function, like a beer function.

Speaker 31 Can you describe that for us?

Speaker 36 Just met her through there, and then

Speaker 37 we started talking and then

Speaker 36 share common interests and became friends.

Speaker 38 But I just know her as her first name.

Speaker 35 I don't know her last name or anything like that.

Speaker 31 But you recognize the pictures, right?

Speaker 36 Yeah, now I do, yep.

Speaker 31 Joel, you know how that's looking, right?

Speaker 36 Is this the person making the allegations?

Speaker 31 We'll get to that, but I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility and veracity, I'm showing you a picture, I'm giving you a chance to take a look at it.

Speaker 31 You're telling me to my face that you don't recognize him.

Speaker 28 Well,

Speaker 42 I was mistaken.

Speaker 37 I apologize for that.

Speaker 36 I recognize her because I just met her at proof functions.

Speaker 28 But

Speaker 29 that's it.

Speaker 26 The woman in the photo was the same woman we heard from in an earlier episode. We're not using her name here.
She was the one Joel had sex with in the parking lot of a sporting goods store.

Speaker 26 The one Joel was texting when he said, there's been some drama and I deleted everything.

Speaker 26 The CSPD had copies of their messages.

Speaker 31 You don't have

Speaker 31 any kind of other relationship with her?

Speaker 41 No.

Speaker 31 Have you communicated with her through WhatsApp?

Speaker 28 Yes.

Speaker 41 Just as friends talking through that about different things, but that's it.

Speaker 25 Do you have a romantic relationship with her, Joel?

Speaker 35 I do not.

Speaker 25 Would she say differently?

Speaker 25 I don't know.

Speaker 38 I don't have a romantic relationship with her.

Speaker 25 Have you been intimate with her?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 25 When I say intimate, I'm going to be very brunt and blue, so we don't have any... Have you been physically intimate or had sex with her?

Speaker 26 Before Joel could say anything, Sokolik decided to lay it all out there. He was done with Joel's denial.

Speaker 25 Before you answer that, because we're pausing, what I'm going to say is, I want to make sure it's very clear that the internal affairs detectives are in Denver right now to contact her during this meeting.

Speaker 25 So this should be a really easy question, Joel.

Speaker 31 We're not here to trick you, Joel. This is, we're trying to get to the bottom of this.
I mean, do you know both of us?

Speaker 28 So, matter of fact, let me stop things for a second here, okay?

Speaker 25 I really want to be clear. I know you're talking about catfishing on this.
That is not the allegation.

Speaker 25 The allegation, be very clear, is you had sex with this person, Not that she talked to you about having sex, that you've had sex with this person in your department vehicle.

Speaker 25 That's not a catfishing situation. It's a very serious allegation.

Speaker 25 And it's not like a misunderstanding. I'm talking to the wrong person online.
This person is identifying that they had sex with you, Joel Kern, in your department car.

Speaker 25 And I'll be honest, it doesn't sound like you're being 100% honest here, Joel.

Speaker 25 So I'm going to ask you again, real quick, understanding the detectives are out there to talk to her right now.

Speaker 25 Have you been physically intimate with this individual?

Speaker 28 Yes. Couldn't.

Speaker 25 Did you have sex with them?

Speaker 28 Yes.

Speaker 25 Did that occur inside an apartment vehicle?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 25 Did it occur on duty?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 36 I mean, I guess it could have.

Speaker 25 Are you familiar with FetLife?

Speaker 28 I've heard of it, but yeah.

Speaker 26 FetLife is a kink and fetish social networking website.

Speaker 25 Did you meet her through FetLife?

Speaker 36 I can't remember if I did or not.

Speaker 25 You have a FetLife account?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 25 Did you have a FetLife account?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 28 Okay.

Speaker 25 So, in order to go through FetLife, you have to have an account in order to have those conversations back and forth, the DMs, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 25 So, how would you have met her potentially there if you didn't have an account with Fed Life?

Speaker 28 I don't remember how I met her exactly.

Speaker 35 It's been a few years.

Speaker 31 So, we're not going to let you skate on this one.

Speaker 31 You just said I might have. So, clearly, you have been on Fed Life.
Can we establish that?

Speaker 28 I looked at it, yes.

Speaker 31 And what Jimmy just said is that you cannot get on there without having an account.

Speaker 31 We've tested all this out.

Speaker 33 I deleted...

Speaker 36 I had an account and then I deleted it

Speaker 36 when I was trying to get my life back on track.

Speaker 31 Okay, that's a step in the right direction. So you had an account, but you don't know if you met her through FedLife?

Speaker 28 I think I did, yeah.

Speaker 28 But

Speaker 34 it wasn't

Speaker 35 you're painting it out to be

Speaker 31 not passing judgment, Joe. I'll stop you there.
We're not, we're giving you an opportunity to talk to us.

Speaker 31 All we're trying to establish is that you violate policy, and if you did, obviously, we have to be held accountable, period. I mean, that's it.
We're not here to pass judgment.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 30 there's periods in my marriage and home life that were bad

Speaker 22 and then

Speaker 46 you know I met her and talked to her and then we just became fast friends.

Speaker 46 But to the question of violating policy and all that, no.

Speaker 29 Okay.

Speaker 31 But you said that possibly you met her while you were on duty. You were coming back from Denver

Speaker 31 when you went to this trip that you're thinking about, where you're driving your take-home vehicle.

Speaker 25 Yes.

Speaker 22 Okay.

Speaker 31 So, how does that happen?

Speaker 22 How do you meet her?

Speaker 31 You said you went to a brewery.

Speaker 27 It was coming back from a training, and then she suggested that we meet.

Speaker 22 And then

Speaker 5 so we met on the way back.

Speaker 30 And then coming back, we just met at the

Speaker 29 I forget the name of the store, it's an outdoor store, like around Lincoln and I-25.

Speaker 22 Okay.

Speaker 31 And then where do you guys go and have intimate relationships?

Speaker 27 Well, she she came over into

Speaker 27 my car and then we just talked and and everything and then um kissed.

Speaker 31 Okay.

Speaker 31 What part of the car?

Speaker 27 The front p front passenger seat.

Speaker 31 Any other area of the car where she might have been?

Speaker 31 And I'm sure you can probably guess where we're going with this. We obviously took the car.
We had the lab

Speaker 31 search it and do what they do.

Speaker 31 Would there be any chance for her DNA to be in the back of that car?

Speaker 46 Oh, sure.

Speaker 27 She's in the car, so.

Speaker 25 Joel, did you have anything besides KISS?

Speaker 22 um

Speaker 30 well this is all very embarrassing and humiliating

Speaker 28 but uh yeah um we had sex

Speaker 28 whereabouts in the car in the in the back

Speaker 31 only the one time

Speaker 28 okay

Speaker 26 joel admitted to certain details But when and only when he realized they already knew it.

Speaker 31 So

Speaker 31 the picture that we're getting, Joel, is that there might be more than one person.

Speaker 31 So we want you to think about it. Pause if you need to take a break.
If you need to use the restroom, get some water, and we can talk about that when we get back.

Speaker 26 They took a break, and when they returned, Chanza and Sokolik continued their questioning.

Speaker 25 Did you have conversation with her in Pet Life?

Speaker 35 I don't know her name

Speaker 38 or who she is or anything like that. But yeah, I think I had conversations or I did have conversations with her on Fit Life.

Speaker 25 Did you arrange for her to download the WhatsApp so you guys could have conversations privately on your phone?

Speaker 28 Yes.

Speaker 25 Did you arrange to meet her at Memorial Park?

Speaker 28 Yes.

Speaker 25 Then basically you had sex with her at Memorial Park?

Speaker 36 Didn't have sex.

Speaker 38 There was no penetration.

Speaker 25 So that was oral sex only?

Speaker 28 Yes.

Speaker 26 Joel is treading carefully here because because admitting to having sex in public is not only admitting to a violation of his duty, but a violation of the law.

Speaker 25 During this conversation, she says when you arranged that basically she is submissive and you are dominant.

Speaker 25 She said you struck her several times leaving bruises. I will say before for any further two, she says this was a consensual encounter.

Speaker 25 She is not alleging a sexual assault.

Speaker 31 And remember, you're within the confines of Garrity.

Speaker 26 Remember, the Garrity advisement is a warning given to police officers during an internal investigation. The individual signing this advisement is declaring that they will tell the truth.

Speaker 25 This is not having to do anything to do with a criminal investigation. I'm just trying to lock in her statement.

Speaker 25 She said you left bruises, you physically struck her, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

Speaker 5 No.

Speaker 25 So obviously at some point in time after this takes place, you break contact with her.

Speaker 25 She leaves?

Speaker 33 Yes.

Speaker 25 Do you have any further contact with her?

Speaker 24 Just hear her there

Speaker 42 afterwards, but nothing.

Speaker 25 What does hear or there mean?

Speaker 30 Just texting a little bit on the

Speaker 43 app, but no physical meetings whatsoever.

Speaker 25 So when her husband showed up, you knew what he was talking about.

Speaker 28 You know who I am? No.

Speaker 39 See, that's my wife out there, the one that you fucking your cruiser. What are you talking about?

Speaker 33 Um,

Speaker 33 Well,

Speaker 28 yeah.

Speaker 38 But again, I didn't have sex with her,

Speaker 34 as in,

Speaker 34 you know, sexual intercourse or anything like that.

Speaker 43 So,

Speaker 43 but yeah, I had an idea.

Speaker 25 Did you recognize her that day?

Speaker 43 Vaguely, yes.

Speaker 31 So just to clarify, the picture that I'm showing you here, Jill, is this the lady that was there day in front of your house.

Speaker 28 Yes.

Speaker 26 Then the investigators turned to an important element. In this case, they have a selfie Joel sent to this woman, a photo where he's wearing his police uniform.

Speaker 26 You can clearly see his badge on his chest. And the investigators needed to know why.
What was Joel's intention?

Speaker 31 You sent a picture of yourself

Speaker 28 to

Speaker 31 the complainant in this case, the person that you met at Memorial Park?

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 31 Okay. Were you in uniform?

Speaker 43 Can't remember.

Speaker 31 Did you identify yourself as a police officer to this person?

Speaker 38 After some time, after we were talking, yes.

Speaker 31 Why did you do that?

Speaker 38 Because she said that she works in law

Speaker 28 and

Speaker 42 the intent was

Speaker 38 developing friendships and all that and having friendships. So it was just more of like a getting to know.

Speaker 31 The information we received is that she was nervous. Is that why you sent a picture of yourself, or is that why you identified yourself as a police officer to

Speaker 31 make her feel more comfortable?

Speaker 43 No, absolutely not.

Speaker 31 But you did identify yourself as a police officer.

Speaker 28 Yes.

Speaker 25 So, Joe, when we started all this,

Speaker 25 why didn't you say what happened?

Speaker 32 Because it's humiliating, it's embarrassing, it's traumatic, and

Speaker 43 you know, all the

Speaker 43 demons from my past come to rise, and

Speaker 41 I was at a low point,

Speaker 46 definitely

Speaker 43 in my marriage and in my life, and

Speaker 42 trying to save face,

Speaker 30 trying to

Speaker 46 not get fired,

Speaker 28 and

Speaker 43 I think maybe

Speaker 32 a cry for help.

Speaker 25 Is there anything you want to make sure that the person who reads this gets to hear directly from you?

Speaker 28 Yeah.

Speaker 41 I think

Speaker 38 I think I'm salvageable.

Speaker 28 I acknowledge that I've needed help for a long time

Speaker 28 and I just throw myself at the mercy of the people reading this and promise that

Speaker 35 you know I want I want to do better and I think I need help and I think it would be nice for the department to help me get there

Speaker 41 we pay a lot of lip service about our employees as our family and all that, but I'd like to maybe somehow believe in that and recognize that I've had issues and I've had issues for a long, long time,

Speaker 28 and

Speaker 28 every day is a struggle, and I want help.

Speaker 31 In closing, this investigation is ongoing.

Speaker 31 In order to maintain the confidentiality of this case, I'm giving you a direct order not to discuss this case or this interview with anyone other than internal affairs or anyone from whom the discussion would be legally protected and confidential under Colorado statute.

Speaker 31 Do you understand this order?

Speaker 25 I do.

Speaker 31 Okay, this will conclude the interview. The time now is 1344 hours.

Speaker 26 Caroline and I listened to the internal affairs interview together. I wanted to know what she thought of Joel's performance.

Speaker 26 Finally, she could hear what was really going on with Joel while she was still in the dark.

Speaker 26 Caroline remembers exactly what she was doing the week of Joel's interview because she was on vacation with her daughter. They decided to take a trip to Vegas together and soak up the desert sun.

Speaker 26 Joel hung back, saying he was busy with work. All the while, he knew he'd been caught.
He was just waiting to find out how bad the consequences would be.

Speaker 6 And he picked us up at the airport with our dogs in the car, you know, gets out of the car, kisses me, hugs her. Missed you guys.
Oh, we missed you. We're catching up.

Speaker 6 We're talking about the food we ate and we're filling him in. How was work? Oh my gosh, so busy this week.
I have replayed that over and over and over and over again.

Speaker 26 To Caroline, her husband seemed completely normal.

Speaker 6 Meanwhile, he has just revealed what is going to be the detriment to our family.

Speaker 47 Wow.

Speaker 26 I mean, he signs the Garrity,

Speaker 26 which is basically saying that he's promising to tell the truth. And from the very beginning, from question one, he is

Speaker 26 lying. Do you feel like he thought that he could talk his way out of it?

Speaker 6 I don't think he just thought he could talk his way out of it. I think that he truly, in his gut, believed he would get away with it.

Speaker 6 He not only thought that he could have his attorney believe him, but Joel believed that he would be able to have Raphael and Jimmy believe him as well.

Speaker 26 And those are the two internal affairs investigators we heard questioning him, Rafael Chanza and Jimmy Soklik. These are two people who both knew you guys personally.

Speaker 6 Yes. The part that disturbs me so much on this is not just that he lied, but the level of personal connection and whom he lied to.
They were promoted on the same day together as lieutenants.

Speaker 6 We were at Jimmy Sokolik's wedding.

Speaker 47 Wow.

Speaker 6 These were people who had been at personal events in our lives.

Speaker 6 He's lying to them and not only just lying to them as professionals, colleagues, and friends, but he is lying about the dynamic of our home.

Speaker 6 There was not this unhealthy, horrible life at home. And yet this is what he reverts back to.
time and time and time again on the times where he has gotten caught.

Speaker 26 Yeah, I was going to say he refers to your marriage being in a bad place. And this isn't the first IAA investigation where he cites this experience.

Speaker 26 You don't look back at that time feeling like your marriage was in a bad place.

Speaker 6 I do not.

Speaker 26 Do you even recognize the person on that tape?

Speaker 6 So when I hear the investigation,

Speaker 6 I see. the stranger who I lived with.

Speaker 6 I do not know that man. That man who is on that tape tape is evil.

Speaker 6 I don't know anything about him.

Speaker 6 He just didn't think he would get to that point. That's why he started with the lying, denying, deflecting, and shifting any of the responsibility.

Speaker 6 And then when he had to fall on his sword, magically it became, all this was going sideways at home. I have demons.

Speaker 26 I need help.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 It turned into a different deflection.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 6 He would make comments about, quote, slaying his demons. And then he would talk about, I just need to get back to the man I was.
I could be the husband I was. I could be the dad I was.

Speaker 6 But the fact of the matter is,

Speaker 6 what were you?

Speaker 26 Yeah, who were you ever?

Speaker 6 That's a question that the kids and I have grappled with. Those are the moments where I question things, but I have to remind myself: the kids and I were living the truth.
He was living the lie.

Speaker 48 Yeah.

Speaker 28 Yeah.

Speaker 26 How long has it taken you to get to that place?

Speaker 26 To be able to say that I do it daily.

Speaker 6 I still have to do it daily.

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Speaker 26 So, just to go on the record, today's about a month after Joel's internal affairs interview, judgment day finally came.

Speaker 26 Joel had to face his boss, Commander Stroessner, who had believed in him, thought the best of him.

Speaker 26 You've heard the date several times now, April 11th, 2022. And Stroessner got right to it.

Speaker 25 I don't want to belabor the point here.

Speaker 47 This is

Speaker 35 not...

Speaker 47 Did not expect to have to do this with you, Joel. I really never expected this would have to be the case.

Speaker 47 Did you get the agenda for the meeting? Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Speaker 28 Okay.

Speaker 26 Stroessner began by laying out the facts of the case.

Speaker 47 About 4.30 to 5 p.m.,

Speaker 47 you informed me that you knew you were under investigation.

Speaker 47 When I asked how you knew that, you proceeded to tell me about the confrontation that occurred on February 5th, professing your innocence and adamantly denying any involvement in the situation.

Speaker 47 I had no reason not to believe your innocence in this case, which meant that either the couple was lying and needed to be criminally charged, or that another cop was impersonating you and needed to be fired.

Speaker 47 And that we would make sure the case was thoroughly investigated.

Speaker 47 After being advised and signing the Garrity warning which included an order to answer questions truthfully, you knowingly lied providing false information to the investigators for nearly 40 to 45 minutes.

Speaker 47 You initially attempted to blame someone you know is

Speaker 47 for causing you and your wife's problems and somehow causing this complaint by catfishing you online. You initially denied ever having an account on FetLife and denied knowing either

Speaker 47 only only after being confronted with specific facts did you begin to admit to having sex with

Speaker 47 while admitting to having sex with her you initially denied the encounter occurred in your police car you later confessed you might have met her on fet life and then did admit the sexual encounter did occur in your police vehicle after taking a break in the interview you returned Finally, you admit that you arranged a meeting in Memorial Park with

Speaker 47 you stated you did not have sex with her because there was no penetration and quite frankly I think this is quibbling over the details because she did perform oral sex on you in the back of the SUV

Speaker 47 there are discrepancies in the rest of the interview between what

Speaker 47 and you describe as having occurred in the back of the SUV quite frankly those details are irrelevant to proving the overall case However, given the false statements you've provided to internal affairs, I have no reason to discount any of her recollection of these events.

Speaker 47 That's my overall case summary.

Speaker 47 Lieutenant do you have any comments that you want to make?

Speaker 49 I'm extremely remorseful. I'm extremely ashamed, humiliated, embarrassed, upset.

Speaker 49 I'm begging for mercy.

Speaker 44 I

Speaker 49 literally was not in my right mind.

Speaker 49 And I've been going through a hard time for several years.

Speaker 49 and I can promise you that nothing like that would ever, ever happen again.

Speaker 49 I

Speaker 49 initially lied in the IA interview because I was humiliated, embarrassed,

Speaker 49 scared.

Speaker 49 Did not want to

Speaker 49 have this come to fruition and lose everything that I have.

Speaker 49 I am on bended knee asking for forgiveness.

Speaker 49 I promise you that none of this will ever happen again. I understand that I've shattered your trust.

Speaker 49 It's something that I want to work hard to get back.

Speaker 49 I apologize for any of this happening.

Speaker 49 The last three months have been hell, and

Speaker 49 I just am begging for your mercy.

Speaker 47 I'm gonna move to the to the next section here and just talk about my comments and insight regarding this case.

Speaker 47 This case is not about the sex or how you met these women.

Speaker 47 Honestly, I don't really care what your preferences are unless the PD is somehow brought into the situation.

Speaker 47 as occurred in this case when you sent essentially these strangers a photograph of yourself in police uniform and used your work vehicle for your activities. That's what made this a police issue.

Speaker 47 The week the allegation was filed, you didn't need to say anything to me about the case. And quite honestly, I wish you'd not said anything to me at all.

Speaker 47 You literally lied to my face on that Wednesday afternoon proclaiming your innocence and then less than 20 minutes later was texting with

Speaker 47 to tell her there was drama and that you deleted everything.

Speaker 47 Even on Friday, when I tried to reassure you that I had no reason not to believe you and would make sure that this case was thoroughly investigated,

Speaker 51 you didn't flinch,

Speaker 51 even when I threatened to criminally charge this couple or maybe fire another employee, and you later thanked me for believing in you.

Speaker 51 To me, this is the most disturbing piece of the entire case.

Speaker 51 Even in your interview with IA,

Speaker 51 as a former investigator yourself,

Speaker 51 you lied to Jimmy and Raphael trying to pin this on a third person named.

Speaker 51 You had five and a half weeks to think about your interview and decided to stick with your story and deny that any of this occurred.

Speaker 51 The fact that you lied, the fact that you're willing to put this on a third person or possibly even have charges filed against a complainant is absolutely horrific and constitutes a violation of your oath in office.

Speaker 51 I also cannot ignore the previous history from the 2019 case.

Speaker 26 Stroessner is referring to the case when a reporter contacted the CSPD because Joel was up for the public information officer job.

Speaker 26 The reporter alleged that Joel had sexually harassed her and other reporters.

Speaker 47 In 2019, Commander Mandel wrote, in regard to that incident, Lieutenant Kern is a valuable member of the department.

Speaker 47 He's committed to putting this behind him and being a better person and leader for the organization.

Speaker 47 I have full confidence that Lieutenant Kern has learned from his mistakes and he will not place himself himself or the department in this position again.

Speaker 47 I'm hearing some of the same things that were said last time in that case.

Speaker 26 Stroessner is right. Back in 2019, Joel had used some of the exact same language.
Here's Joel in 2019.

Speaker 50 I'm ashamed and I'm embarrassed and I'm humiliated.

Speaker 50 And

Speaker 52 again, I take full responsibility for all my actions and I ask for mercy.

Speaker 47 Not only did you put yourself in that same position, you made it worse.

Speaker 47 Someone might make that argument that you were initially evasive in the IA interview, but that you rectified it later by telling the truth.

Speaker 47 I want to be clear that I do not believe you fully redeemed your credibility or you were completely transparent.

Speaker 47 Even near the end of your interview, you were specifically asked by Lieutenant Sokolik whether you deleted the WhatsApp, to which you told him yes.

Speaker 47 Later, Lieutenant Chanza asked you, do you still use WhatsApp currently? And you replied, just to talk to WhatsApp.

Speaker 47 I believe the slip-up proves you're still not being completely honest with investigators, that you're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

Speaker 47 Now, before I present my findings, I want to address something you stated during your interview with Lieutenant Chanza and Sokolik.

Speaker 47 You said that you believe you need help and it would be nice for the department to help you get there.

Speaker 47 And you said, We pay a lot of lip service about our employees as family, and I'd like to maybe somehow believe in that and recognize they've had issues. I want to point out a couple things.

Speaker 47 In 2019, you received nothing more than a written reprimand at a time when you might have been able to get more.

Speaker 47 And you said you were already seeking the help.

Speaker 47 I believe this department has treated you more than fair regarding these previous indiscretions.

Speaker 49 I'm not saying that they weren't.

Speaker 47 I'm about to go into the findings of the policies. Did you have anything you wanted to add?

Speaker 49 Yeah, that I know that the department has been good to me.

Speaker 36 I am sorry that

Speaker 47 I

Speaker 49 that this kind of stuff happened a second time, but I swear that there is nobody else. I'm willing to do whatever it takes

Speaker 49 to

Speaker 49 hold on to my employment and to

Speaker 49 to show that I can do better. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart.

Speaker 49 I understand that it looks bad

Speaker 49 the way everything's been discussed here.

Speaker 49 And again, I'm begging for your mercy.

Speaker 26 Stroessner? was unmoved. Okay.

Speaker 47 Let's go through each of the the policies.

Speaker 47 So as I go through these, remember the standard is a preponderance of the evidence.

Speaker 47 First one is 906.30. It's the take-home vehicles policy.

Speaker 47 By a preponderance of the evidence, your take-home vehicle was inappropriately used. This allegation is sustained.

Speaker 47 400.30

Speaker 26 conduct unbecoming of a police officer.

Speaker 47 It's reasonable to believe that using photographs of yourself in official police uniform to gain the trust of women you have met on FET Life and then having sex with them in an official police vehicle has brought disrepute to the police department.

Speaker 47 Further, your false statements to me at the onset were unsolicited and used to paint yourself in the most favorable light regarding this investigation. This allegation is sustained.

Speaker 26 Then, Stroessner reached the most egregious of Joel's violations.

Speaker 47 And the final allegation is 400.13, employee conduct departing from the truth.

Speaker 47 Employees will not willfully or knowingly depart from the truth in giving testimony or in connection with official duties.

Speaker 47 You were given a Garrity advisement and signed that advisement knowing you were being ordered to tell the truth.

Speaker 47 By preponderance of the evidence, you gave a false statement for the first approximate 40 minutes of the interview.

Speaker 47 Only when confronted with evidence did you finally begin to confess some of your role in this case.

Speaker 51 Yet, as I said, I still am not sure that you've told the whole truth.

Speaker 47 This is sustained as well.

Speaker 47 This whole thing has just been like a shock to my conscience. It really has.

Speaker 28 And

Speaker 47 honestly, I think we've been painted into a corner where there's really only one outcome in this case I can recommend.

Speaker 47 I have no option but to recommend your termination.

Speaker 26 Caroline, it feels like maybe for the first time, someone with authority sees through Joel's facade.

Speaker 26 What went through your mind when you heard Joel's boss confront him?

Speaker 6 I think it's fascinating to listen to when Stroessner says, and I believe there's more. There's more women.
I question how many other women will come forward.

Speaker 6 And then hearing Joel say, I swear these were the only two. I swear these were the only two.

Speaker 6 And next thing you know, it's all kinds of different names are being revealed and all of these sexual encounters and sexually illicit behavior while he's under the guise of a police officer.

Speaker 26 Did you ever talk to Stroessner?

Speaker 6 I did.

Speaker 26 What can you tell me about that?

Speaker 6 There's two people who

Speaker 6 A lot of people will be shocked that I'm grateful for. The first one is the male who came to my front door, the husband of the the wife who Joel had an affair with.

Speaker 6 And the second one is Jeff Stroessner. I'm extremely grateful for Jeff Stroessner.

Speaker 6 I was at a community event and he was there. And as we walked out together, I said, Hey, Jeff, and I could tell he was nervous to see me.

Speaker 26 And he was like, Oh, you know, hey, hey, Caroline.

Speaker 6 And I said, I'd like to thank you.

Speaker 6 And he looked shocked.

Speaker 6 And I said,

Speaker 6 Thank you for

Speaker 6 not believing him.

Speaker 6 Thank you for

Speaker 6 the due diligence of hearing this one out and not giving him the benefit of the doubt. You may have saved mine and my kids' lives.

Speaker 33 Thank you.

Speaker 6 And Jeff's always been a very friendly and a little bit stoic of a man, but his voice started to crack and you could see the emotion on him.

Speaker 6 And he said,

Speaker 6 oh my gosh thank you for saying that i appreciate you saying that i have thought about you and the kids so much

Speaker 6 so when i hear jeff stroessner's commentary in this interview i'm extremely grateful for him i know that just hours later is when joel's going to do his reveal to me and the kids.

Speaker 6 So it's an interesting thing to to reflect back on it and think

Speaker 6 what that day must have been like in his world.

Speaker 26 So we know that Stroessner recommended Joel for termination, but he wasn't fired, was he?

Speaker 6 No.

Speaker 26 Joel wasn't fired, and this case only gets more interesting.

Speaker 26 We'll explore how he was able to avoid termination on the next episode of Betrayal.

Speaker 26 Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
That's betrayalpod

Speaker 26 at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at betrayalpod and me, Andrea H.
Gunning, for all betrayal content, news, and updates.

Speaker 26 One way to support the series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal.
Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do.

Speaker 26 Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.

Speaker 26 Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri.

Speaker 26 Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreinchek.

Speaker 26 Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio.
Editing by Tanner Robbins. And special thanks to Caroline and her family.
Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.

Speaker 26 Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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