S4: EP 4 — Shock to the Conscience

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This is Larry Flick, owner of the Floor Store.

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This is Larry Flick, owner of the Floor Store.

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Hey guys, before we get into the episode, a quick note.

We're looking for new stories of betrayal for our weekly betrayal series, which returns in August.

If you've experienced betrayal and feel ready to share your story, now is a great time to reach out.

Email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.

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at gmail.com.

She starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just got up and started to walk away.

And then, as we were walking out of their house, she's following behind us, and then she says,

I'm going to ruin your fucking lives.

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 4.

Shock to the Conscience.

In our last episode, we saw Joel Kern's double life, a side-by-side comparison of two different realities.

But those two realities were on a collision course because Joel's reckoning day at the Colorado Springs Police Department was rapidly approaching.

This was was the day he'd be forced to answer for his lies.

And this time, it wouldn't be Caroline who was left in disbelief.

It would be Joel's coworkers.

Officers he'd worked closely with for over two decades.

Men he graduated from the police academy with.

Men who'd been close friends and mentors.

In March 2022, Joel was under investigation at the CSPD because a couple came in to file a complaint against him.

The wife confessed to having sex with Joel in his police car.

She was making amends for her actions, and part of that was alerting the department that one of their officers was up to no good.

So the department launched an internal investigation and dug into the claims.

Then they called Joel in for his official interview with Internal Affairs.

He was even able to bring an attorney.

His future hinged on what happened in this meeting.

We've got it all on tape, and we want you to hear it.

Good to see you again.

It's been a while.

Okay, Joel.

Been on the form.

You've been up here, so I'll let you read that.

They start the interview by having Joel sign a Garrity advisement.

It's an acknowledgement that he's under investigation.

It explains the process.

And most importantly, it requires him to answer truthfully.

After he signs this document, a lie could mean termination.

Sir.

Okay, all right, we'll get started.

It's Lieutenant Rafiel Chancellor with the Colorado Springs Police Department Internal Affairs Section.

Today is Monday, March 21st, 2022.

I'm interviewing Lieutenant Joel Kern in regards to Internal Affairs Case 22-023.

Also present are Lieutenant James Sokolik and Lieutenant Kern's attorney,

John Newsome.

Joel, I know you were up here, so before going on the record, where you provided a type Garrity advisement?

I was.

Did you sign that voluntarily?

Yes.

Do you have any questions regarding the Garrity advisement?

No.

Okay.

Will you be answering all of our questions concerning this matter truthfully today?

Yes.

You may remember in episode two, Joel's boss, Commander Stroessner, reported a conversation he had with Joel where Joel denied knowing the couple and was worried that someone was impersonating him or filing a false complaint.

Stroessner believed him.

This is now under Garrity.

This is your opportunity to just let us know what happened.

I don't want you to feel tied to whatever you said to Stroessner, anything that was said there.

Is that good?

Is that fair?

I'll tell you exactly what I told you.

Okay.

Tell us, why do you think those allegations against you were brought forward?

I don't know why specifically these allegations were made, but

I have some ideas.

I think maybe

the

person that's making the allegations got in over their head or something, and I suspect that they catfished me

and whatever communication they were having.

But before they got into that, Chanza wanted to focus on the incident at Joel's house.

The day a stranger showed up accusing Joel of having sex with his wife and his police cruiser.

See, that's my wife out there, the one that you fucked in your cruiser?

What are you talking about?

Joel wasn't aware that the man had secretly recorded the entire encounter.

And Joel didn't know that the man gave the recording to the CSPD.

Chanza gave Joel an opportunity to recount what happened from his point of view.

I was just in shock that someone was standing there saying this to me.

So

I said, I don't know who you are, but I'm not fucking your wife or anybody else's wife.

And

he

looked at me again, and then he said, well, I don't even really know if it's you.

And if it's not you, I'm really sorry.

And I took pause for a second because I'm like,

you're coming to my house, banging on my front door.

And then you drop this bomb on my household.

And then you're going to say that you don't even even know if it's me.

So I said, you need to get the fuck off my property.

I walked onto the sidewalk so I could look in the car just to see who this is.

And when I saw the person, I didn't recognize them at all.

And then she gets out of the car.

And then,

like she's staring at me.

And then she has these huge...

huge sunglasses on like so huge I couldn't even see her face really but they weren't like total blackout, and I could see through the sunglasses that looked like she had like two black eyes.

And she's crying.

It seemed like Joel, in an effort to deflect the attention off of his own actions, was slyly suggesting this man was beating his wife.

And then this guy slams the back of

their car and says, Is that him?

like screaming at her.

And she startles

and she starts to cry even more

and then she like shakes her head yes and then gets right back into the car

and then

he said well the least that you can do is apologize for ruining my family

and then so i started walking away and i said i have nothing to apologize for because i don't know you i don't know your wife i'm not fucking your wife I'm not fucking anybody else.

And then I just started to walk back in my house.

And then they drove away eventually.

So, you had never seen either one of them?

No.

Going back to catfishing, you made a

comment about that at the beginning when we opened up.

What does that have to do with them coming to your front door?

In like two years ago, there was a

potentially like a breakup of friendships with like

four different couples.

It seemed like Joel had come prepared with a backstory.

He says it all started at a dinner party that he and Caroline attended.

It was with a group of couples.

An argument broke out.

The couple hosting got into it with Caroline and Joel.

The wife, in particular, was enraged.

So she starts screaming and yelling at us and we just got up and started to walk away.

And then as we were walking out of their house she's following behind us and then she says i'm gonna ruin your fucking lives the story was over the top ridiculous even then it got even stranger joel said another woman got pulled into the conflict and the two women teamed up to take down the kerns there was another couple who was friends with this lady that said that she's gonna fucking ruin my life or ruin our lives.

And she, when we were all friends, used to brag about how she would make fake social media accounts and then converse with people using the fake account.

Her idea of fun was to impersonate a friend of a person that they already have on Facebook, and then she would start conversing with them on the instant messaging.

Chanza asked more questions about the women Joel believed targeted his family.

But eventually, they got to the heart of the matter.

Have you ever had any kind of sexual contact inside your city-assigned take-home vehicle?

No.

Have you ever had any sexual contact with anyone while on duty?

No.

Okay.

So the allegations that are being brought against you are absolutely not true.

No.

Chanza then showed Joel a photograph of a woman.

It was not the woman who filed the complaint.

It was someone else.

Have you ever met this lady?

No.

No.

Have you ever uploaded WhatsApp on your work cell phone number?

No.

Obviously, you're aware we took your phone, and as you may imagine, we dumped your laptop.

What if I were to tell you that you did communicate with someone, directing them to go to WhatsApp?

Would that refresh your memory?

This is Larry Flick, owner of the Floor Store.

Labor Day is the last sale of the summer, but this one is our biggest sale of the year.

Now through September 2nd, get up to 50% off store-wide on carpet, hardwood, laminate, waterproof flooring, and much more.

Plus two years interest-free financing, and we pay your sales tax.

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Go to floorstores.com to find the nearest of our 10 showrooms from Santa Rosa to San Jose.

The Floor Store, your area flooring authority.

Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime.

My husband comes back outside and he's

shaking and he just looks like he's seen a ghost and he's just in shock.

And he said,

your dad's been killed.

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Liz's mom had just been found shut in a closet, her hands and feet tied up, shouting for help.

I was just completely in shock.

Her dad had been stabbed to death.

It didn't feel real at all.

For more than a decade, Liz has been trying to figure out what happened.

There's a lot of guilt, I think, pushing me.

And I just, I want answers.

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Lieutenant Chanza began to lay out the evidence they'd collected.

Immediately, Joel's tone shifted.

So did his story.

These guys worked with Joel for years.

This was the last situation they wanted to be in.

Obviously, you're aware we took your phone, and as you may imagine, we dumped your laptop.

What if I were to tell you that you did communicate with someone, directing them to go to WhatsApp?

Would that refresh your memory

i don't remember in what context

you said that her name's what

would it help you if um i told you she has a denver number

uh yeah um

uh i met her at a uh brew function

I'm sorry, at a what?

A brewery function, like a beer function.

Can you describe that for

Just met her through there and then we started talking and then

share common interests and became friends.

But I just know her as her first name.

I don't know her last name or anything like that.

But you recognize the picture, right?

Yeah, now I do, yep.

Joel, you know how that's looking, right?

Is this the person making the allegations?

We'll get to that, but I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility and veracity, I'm showing you a picture.

I'm giving you a chance to take a look at it.

You're telling me to my face that you don't recognize him.

Well,

I was mistaken.

I apologize for that.

I recognize her because I just met her at Proof Functions.

But

that's it.

The woman in the photo was the same woman we heard from in an earlier episode.

We're We're not using her name here.

She was the one Joel had sex with in the parking lot of a sporting goods store.

The one Joel was texting when he said, There's been some drama and I deleted everything.

The CSPD had copies of their messages.

You don't have

any kind of other relationship with her?

No.

Have you communicated with her through WhatsApp?

Yes.

Just as friends

talking through that about different things, but that's it.

Do you you have a romantic relationship with her, Joel?

I do not.

Would she say differently?

I don't know.

I don't have a romantic relationship with her.

Have you been intimate with her?

No.

When I say intimate, I'm very brunt and blue, so we don't have any...

Have you been physically intimate or had sex with her?

Before Joel could say anything, Sokolik decided to lay it all out there.

He was done with Joel's denial.

Before you answer that, because we're pausing, what I'm going to say is, I want to make sure it's very clear that the internal affairs detectives are in Denver right now to contact her during this meeting.

So this should be a really easy question, Joel.

We're not here to trick you, Joel.

This is, we're trying to get to the bottom of this.

I mean, do you know both of us?

So, matter of fact, let me stop things for a second here, okay?

I really want to be clear.

I know you're talking about catfishing on this.

That is not the allegation.

The allegation, be very clear, is you had sex with this person.

Not that she talked to you about having sex, that you have had sex with this person in your department vehicle.

That's not a catfishing situation.

It's a very serious allegation.

And it's not like a misunderstanding.

I'm talking to the wrong person online.

This person is identifying that they had sex with you, Joel Kern, in your department car.

And I'll be honest, it doesn't sound like you're being 100% honest here, Joel.

So I'm going to ask you again, real quick, understanding the detectives are out there to talk to her right now.

Have you been physically intimate with this individual?

Yes.

Clinton.

Did you have sex with them?

Yes.

yes did that occur inside an apartment vehicle no did it occur on duty

no

i mean i guess it could have are you familiar with fetlife

i've heard of it but yeah fetlife is a king and fetish social networking website did you meet her through fetlife

i can't remember if i did or not you have a fetlife account no Did you have a FetLife account?

No.

Okay, so in order to go through FetLife, you have to have an account in order to have those conversations back and forth or do DMs and that kind of stuff.

So how would you have met her potentially there if you didn't have an account with Fed Life?

I don't remember how I met her exactly.

It's been a few years.

So we're not going to let you skate on this one.

You just said I might have.

So clearly you have been on Fed Life.

Can we establish that?

I looked at it, yes.

And what Jimmy just said is that you cannot get on there without having an account.

We've tested all this out.

I deleted I had an account and then I deleted it

when I was trying to get my life back on track.

Okay, that's a step in the right direction.

So you had an account, but you don't know if you met her through Fed Life?

I think I did, yeah, but

it wasn't

you're painting it out to be

judgment, Joe.

I'll stop you there.

We're not, we're giving you an opportunity to talk to us.

All we're trying to establish is that you violate policy, and if you did, obviously we have to be held accountable, period.

I mean, that's it.

We're not here to pass judgment.

So

there's periods in my marriage and home life that were bad

and then

you know I met her and talked to her and then we just became fast friends

But to the question of violating policy and all that, no

Okay,

but you said that possibly you met her while you were on duty you were coming back from Denver

When you went to this trip that you're thinking about were you driving your take-home vehicle?

Yes.

Okay

So how does that happen?

How do you meet her?

You said you went to a brewery

It was uh coming back from a training and then she suggested that we meet and then

So we met on the way back

and then coming back we just met at the

I forget the name of the stores, an outdoor store, like around Lincoln and I-25.

Okay.

And then where do you guys go and have intimate relationships?

Well,

she came over into

my car and then we just talked and everything and then

kissed.

Okay.

What part of the car?

The

front passenger seat.

Any other area of the car?

car where she might have been?

And I'm sure you can probably guess where we're going with this.

We obviously took the car, we had the lab

search it and do what they do.

Would there be any chance for her DNA to be in the back of that car?

I'm sure.

I mean, she's in the car, so.

Joel, did you anything besides KISS?

Well,

this is all very embarrassing and humiliating.

But

yeah,

we had sex.

Whereabouts in the cart?

In the back.

Only the one time?

Okay.

Joel admitted to certain details.

But when and only when he realized they already knew it.

So

the picture that we're getting, Joel, Joel, is that there might be more than one person.

So we want you to think about it.

Pause if you need to take a break.

If you need to use the restroom, get some water, and then we can talk about that when we get back.

They took a break, and when they returned, Chanza and Sokolik continued their questioning.

Did you have conversations with Arnfit Life?

I don't know her name

or who she is or anything like that.

but yeah, I think I had conversations or I did have conversations with her on FitLife.

Okay.

Did you arrange for her to download the WhatsApp so you guys could have conversations privately on your phone?

Yes.

Did you arrange to meet her at Memorial Park?

Yes.

Then basically you had sex with her at Memorial Park?

Didn't have sex.

There was no penetration.

So that was oral sex only?

Yes.

Joel is treading carefully here because admitting to having sex in public is not only only admitting to a violation of his duty, but a violation of the law.

During this conversation, she says when you arranged that basically she is submissive and you are dominant.

She said you struck her several times leaving bruises.

I will say before for any further two, she says this was a consensual encounter.

She is not alleging a sexual assault.

And remember, you're within the confines of Garity.

Remember, the Garrity advisement is a warning given to police officers during an internal investigation.

The individual signing this advisement is declaring that they will tell the truth.

This is not having to do anything to do with a criminal investigation.

I'm just trying to lock in her statement.

She said you left bruises, you physically struck her, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

No.

So, obviously, at some point in time after this takes place, you break contact with her.

She leaves?

Yes.

Do you have any further contact with her?

Just hear her there

afterwards, but nothing.

What does hear her there mean?

Just texting a little bit

on the

app, but no physical meetings whatsoever.

So, when her husband showed up, you know what he was talking about.

You know who I am?

Yeah.

See, that's my wife out there, the one that you fucked in your cruiser.

What are you talking about?

Well,

yeah

um

but again I didn't have sex with her

as in

you know sexual intercourse or anything like that.

So

but yeah, I had an idea.

Did you recognize her that day?

Vaguely, yes.

So just to clarify the picture that I'm showing you here, Jillis is the lady that was there that day in front of your house.

Yes.

Then the investigators turn to an important element.

In this case, they have a selfie Joel sent to this woman, a photo where he's wearing his police uniform.

You can clearly see his badge on his chest.

And the investigators needed to know why.

What was Joel's intention?

You sent a picture of yourself

to

the complainant in this case, the person that you met at Memorial Park.

Yes.

Okay.

Were you in uniform?

Can't remember.

Did you identify yourself as a police officer to this person?

After some time, after we were talking, yes.

Why did you do that?

Because she said that she works in law.

And

the intent was

developing friendships and all that and having friendships.

So it's just more of like a getting to know.

The information we received is that she was nervous.

Is that why you sent a picture of yourself, or is that why you identified yourself as a police officer to

just more to make her feel more comfortable?

No, absolutely not.

But you did identify yourself as a police officer.

Yes.

So, Joe, when we started all this,

why didn't you say what happened?

Because it's humiliating, it's embarrassing, it's traumatic, and

you know, all the

demons from my past come to rise.

And I was at a low point,

definitely

in my marriage and in my life, and

trying to save face,

trying to

not get fired,

and

I think maybe

a cry for help.

Is there anything you want to make sure that the person who reads this gets to hear directly from you?

Yeah.

I think I'm salvageable.

I acknowledge that that I've needed help for a long time

and I just throw myself at the mercy of the people reading this and promise that

you know I want I want to do better and I think I need help and I think it would be nice for the department to to help me get there

we pay a lot of lip service about our employees as our family and all that but

I'd like to maybe somehow believe in that and recognize that I've had issues and I've had issues for a long, long time,

and

every day is a struggle, and I want help.

In closing, this investigation is ongoing.

In order to maintain the confidentiality of this case, I'm giving you a direct order not to discuss this case or this interview with anyone other than internal affairs or anyone from whom the discussion would be legally protected and confidential under Colorado statute.

Do you understand this order?

I do.

Okay, this will conclude the interview.

The time now is 1344 hours.

Caroline and I listened to the internal affairs interview together.

I wanted to know what she thought of Joel's performance.

Finally, she could hear what was really going on with Joel while she was still in the dark.

Caroline remembers exactly what she was doing the week of Joel's interview because she was on vacation with her daughter.

They decided to take a trip to Vegas together and soak up the desert sun.

Joel hung back saying he was busy with work.

All the while, he knew he'd been caught.

He was just waiting to find out how bad the consequences would be.

And he picked us up at the airport with our dogs in the car, you know, gets out of the car, kisses me, hugs her.

Missed you guys.

Oh, we missed you.

We're catching up.

We're talking about the food we ate and we're filling him in.

How was work?

Oh my gosh, so busy this week.

I have replayed that over and over and over and over again.

To Caroline, her husband seemed completely normal.

Meanwhile, he has just revealed what is going to be the detriment to our family.

Wow.

I mean, he signs the Garrity,

which is basically saying that he's promising to tell the truth.

And from the very beginning, from question one,

he is lying.

Do you feel like he thought that he could talk his way out of it?

I don't think he just thought he could talk his way out of it.

I think that he truly in his gut believed he would get away with it.

He not only thought that he could have his attorney believe him, but Joel believed that he would be able to have Raphael and Jimmy believe him as well.

And those are the two internal internal affairs investigators we heard questioning him, Raphael Chanza and Jimmy Soklik.

These are two people who both knew you guys personally.

Yes.

The part that disturbs me so much on this is not just that he lied, but the level of personal connection and whom he lied to.

They were promoted on the same day together as lieutenants.

We were at Jimmy Sokolik's wedding.

Wow.

These were people who had been at personal events in our lives.

He's lying to them and not only just lying to them as professionals, colleagues, and friends, but he is lying about the dynamic of our home.

There was not this unhealthy, horrible life at home.

And yet this is what he reverts back to time and time and time again on the times where he has gotten caught.

Yeah, I was going to say he refers to your marriage being in a bad place.

And this isn't the first IA investigation where he cites this experience.

You don't look back at that time feeling like your marriage was in a bad place.

I do not.

Do you even recognize the person on that tape?

So when I hear the investigation,

I see the stranger who I lived with.

I do not know that man.

That man who is on that tape is evil.

I don't know anything about him.

He just didn't think he would get to that point.

That's why he started with the lying, denying, deflecting, and shifting any of the responsibility.

And then when he had to fall on his sword, magically it became, all this was going sideways at home.

I have demons.

I need help.

Yeah.

It turned into a different deflection.

Yeah.

He would make comments about, quote, slaying his demons.

And then he would talk about, I just need to get back to the man I was.

I could be the husband I was.

I could be the dad I was.

But the fact of the matter is,

what were you?

Yeah, who were you ever?

That's a question that the kids and I have grappled with.

Those are the moments where I question things, but I have to remind myself:

the kids and I were living the truth.

He was living the lie.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How long is it taking you to get to that

place?

To be able to say that I do it daily.

I still have to do it daily

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Subject to change.

Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime.

My husband comes back outside and he's shaking and he just looks like he's seen a ghost and he's just in shock.

And he said,

your dad's been killed.

This is Hands Tied, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Melgar.

Liz's mom had just been found shut in a closet, her hands and feet tied up, shouting for help.

I was just completely in shock.

Her dad had been stabbed to death.

It didn't feel real at all.

For more than a decade, Liz has been trying to figure out what happened.

There's a lot of guilt, I think, pushing me, and I just, I want answers.

Listen to Hands Tied on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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So, just to go on the record, today's interview.

About a month after Joel's internal affairs interview, Judgment Day finally came.

Joel had to face his boss, Commander Stroessner, who had believed in him, thought the best of him.

You've heard the date several times now, April 11th, 2022.

And Stroessner got right to it.

I don't want to belabor the point here.

This is

not,

did not expect to have to do this this with you joel really never expected this would have to be the case um

did you get the agenda for the meeting yes sir yes sir okay

stroessner began by laying out the facts of the case about 4 30 to 5 p.m

you informed me that you knew you were under investigation When I asked how you knew that, you proceeded to tell me about the confrontation that occurred on February 5th, professing your innocence and adamantly denying any involvement in the situation.

I had no reason not to believe your innocence in this case, which meant that either the couple was lying and needed to be criminally charged, or that another cop was impersonating you and needed to be fired, and that we would make sure the case was thoroughly investigated.

After being advised and signing the Garrity warning, which included an order to answer questions truthfully, you knowingly lied, providing false false information to the investigators for nearly 40 to 45 minutes.

You initially attempted to blame someone you know is d

for causing you and your wife's problems and somehow causing this complaint by catfishing you online.

You initially denied ever having an account on FetLife and denied knowing either or d.

Only after being confronted with specific facts did you begin to admit to having sex with.

While admitting to having sex with her, you initially denied the encounter occurred in your police car.

You later confessed you might have met her on FetLife and then did admit the sexual encounter did occur in your police vehicle.

After taking a break in the interview, you returned.

Finally, you admit that you arranged a meeting in Memorial Park with.

You stated you did not have sex with her because there was no penetration.

And quite frankly, I think this is quibbling over the details because she did perform oral sex on you in the back of the SUV.

There are discrepancies in the rest of the interview between what

and you describe as having occurred in the back of the SUV.

Quite frankly, those details are irrelevant to proving the overall case.

However, given the false statements you've provided to internal affairs, I have no reason to discount any of her recollection of these events.

That's my overall case summary.

Lieutenant, do you have any comments that you want to make?

I'm extremely remorseful.

I'm extremely ashamed, humiliated, embarrassed, upset.

I'm begging for mercy.

I

literally was not in my right mind.

And I've been going through a hard time for several years.

And I can promise you that nothing like that would ever, ever happen again.

I

initially lied in the IA interview because I was humiliated, embarrassed,

scared.

Did not want to

have this come to fruition and lose everything that I have.

I am on bended knee asking for forgiveness.

I promise you that none of this will ever happen again.

I understand that I've shattered your trust.

And it's something that I want to work hard to get back.

I apologize for any of this happening.

The last three months have been hell, and

I just am begging for your mercy.

I'm going to...

Move to the to the next section here and just talk about my comments and insight regarding this case.

This case is not about the sex or how you met these women.

Honestly, I don't really care what your preferences are unless the PD is somehow brought into the situation as occurred in this case when you sent essentially these strangers a photograph of yourself in police uniform.

and used your work vehicle for your activities.

That's what made this a police issue.

The week the allegation was filed, you didn't need to say anything to me about the case.

And quite honestly, I wish you'd not said anything to me at all.

You literally lied to my face on that Wednesday afternoon proclaiming your innocence and then less than 20 minutes later was texting with

to tell her there was drama and that you deleted everything.

Even on Friday when I tried to reassure you that I had no reason not to believe you and would make sure that this case was thoroughly investigated.

You didn't flinch.

even when I threatened to criminally charge this couple or maybe fire another employee and you later thanked me for believing in you.

To me this is the most disturbing piece of the entire case.

Even in your interview with IA

as a former investigator yourself,

you lied to Jimmy and Raphael trying to pin this on a third person named

You had five and a half weeks to think about your interview and decided to stick with your story and deny that any of this occurred.

The fact that you lied, the fact that you're willing to put this on a third person or possibly even have charges filed against a complainant is absolutely horrific and constitutes a violation of your oath in office.

I also cannot ignore the previous history from the 2019 case.

Stroessner is referring to the case when a reporter contacted the CSPD because Joel was up for the public information officer job.

The reporter alleged that Joel had sexually harassed her and other reporters.

In 2019, Commander Mandel wrote, in regard to that incident, Lieutenant Kern is a valuable member of the department, committed to putting this behind him and being a better person and leader for the organization.

I have full confidence that Lieutenant Kern has learned from his mistakes and he will not place himself or the department in this position again.

I'm hearing some of the same things that were said last time in that case.

Stroessner is right.

Back in 2019, Joel had used some of the exact same language.

Here's Joel in 2019.

I'm ashamed and

I'm embarrassed and I'm humiliated

and

again I take full responsibility for all my actions and I ask for mercy.

Not only did you make put yourself in that same position, you made it worse.

Someone might make that argument that you were initially evasive in the IA interview, but that you rectified it later by telling the truth.

I want to be clear that I do not believe you fully redeemed your credibility or you were completely transparent.

Even near the end of your interview, you were specifically asked by Lieutenant Sokolik whether you deleted the WhatsApp, to which you told him yes.

Later, Lieutenant Chanza asked you, do you still use WhatsApp currently?

and you replied, just to talk to.

I believe the slip-up proves you're still not being completely honest with investigators, that you're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

Now before I present my findings, I want to address something you stated during your interview with Lieutenant Chandzen Soklik.

You said that you believe you need help and it would be nice for the department to help you get there.

And you said, quote, we pay a lot of lip service about our employees as family and I'd like to maybe somehow believe in that and recognize I've had issues.

I want to point out a couple things.

In 2019, you received nothing more than a written reprimand at a time when you might have been able to get more.

And you said you were already seeking the help.

I believe this department has treated you more than fair regarding these previous indiscretions.

I'm not saying that they weren't.

I'm about to go into the findings of the policies.

Did you have anything you wanted to add?

Yeah, that I know that the department has been good to me.

I am sorry that

I

that this kind of stuff happened a second time, but I swear that there is nobody else.

I'm willing to do whatever it takes

to

hold on to my employment and to

to show that I can do better.

And I apologize from the bottom of my heart.

I understand that it looks bad

the way everything's been discussed here.

And again, I'm begging for your mercy.

Stroessner was unmoved.

Okay.

Let's go through each of the policies.

So as I go through these, remember the standard is a preponderance of the evidence.

First one is 906.30.

It's the take-home vehicles policy.

By preponderance of the evidence, your take-home vehicle was inappropriately used.

This allegation is sustained.

400.30.

Another big one.

Conduct unbecoming of a police officer.

It's reasonable to believe that using photographs of yourself in official police uniform to gain the trust of women you have met on FET life and then having sex with them in an official police vehicle has brought disrepute to the police department.

Further, your false statements to me at the onset were unsolicited and used to paint yourself in the most favorable light regarding this investigation.

This allegation is sustained.

Then, Stroessner reached the most egregious of Joel's violations.

And the final allegation is 400.13, employee conduct departing from the truth.

Employees will not willfully or knowingly depart from the truth in giving testimony or in connection with official duties.

You were given a Garrity advisement and signed that advisement, knowing you were being ordered to tell the truth.

By preponderance of the evidence, you gave a false statement for the first approximate 40 minutes of the interview.

Only when confronted with evidence did you finally begin to confess some of your role in this case.

Yet, as I said, I still am not sure that you've told the whole truth.

This is sustained as well.

This whole thing has just been like a shock to my conscience.

It really has.

And

honestly, I think we've been painted into a corner where there's really only one outcome in this case I can recommend.

I have no option but to recommend your termination.

Caroline, it feels like maybe for the first time, someone with authority sees through Joel's facade.

What went through your mind when you heard Joel's boss confront him?

I think it's fascinating to listen to when Stroessner says, and I believe there's more.

There's more women.

I question how many other women will come forward.

And then hearing Joel say, I swear these were the only two.

I swear these were the only two.

And next thing you know, it's all kinds of different names are being revealed and all of these sexual encounters and sexually illicit behavior while he's under the guise of a police officer.

Did you ever talk to Stroessner?

I did.

What can you tell me about that?

There's two people who

a lot of people will be shocked that I'm grateful for.

The first one is the male who came to my front door, the husband of the wife who Joel had an affair with.

And the second one is Jeff Stroessner.

I'm extremely grateful for Jeff Stroessner.

I was at a community event and he was there.

And as we walked out together, I said, hey, Jeff.

And I could tell he was nervous to see me.

And he was like, oh, you know, hey, hey, Caroline.

And I said, I'd like to thank you.

And he looked shocked.

And I said, thank you for not believing him.

Thank you.

for

the due diligence of hearing this one out and not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

You may have saved mine and my kids' lives.

Thank you.

And Jeff's always been a very friendly and a little bit stoic of a man, but his voice started to crack, and you could see the emotion on him.

And he said,

Oh my gosh, thank you for saying that.

I appreciate you saying that.

I have thought about you and the kids so much.

So when I hear Jeff Stroessner's commentary in this interview,

I'm extremely grateful for him.

I know that just hours later is when Joel is going to do his reveal to me and the kids.

So it's an interesting thing to reflect back on it and think

what that day must have been like in his world.

So we know that Stroessner recommended Joel for termination.

But he wasn't fired, was he?

No.

Joel wasn't fired.

And this case only gets more interesting.

We'll explore how he was able to avoid termination on the next episode of Betrayal.

Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4.

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.

That's betrayalpod

at gmail.com.

Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at betrayalpod and me, Andrea H.

Gunning, for all betrayal content, news, and updates.

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Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.

Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman.

Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri.

Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreinchek.

Story editing by Monique Laborde.

Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio.

Editing by Tanner Robbins.

And special thanks to Caroline and her family.

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