S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart Podcast.

Speaker 2 Shh, you won't believe what my new friend just told me about dinosaurs.

Speaker 3 Is your child having conversations you never imagined? Are they learning without realizing it? It's not a tablet. It's not a toy.

Speaker 3 It's Miko Mini Plus, the AI-powered companion that turns curiosity into endless learning. Hear the future of playtime.
Meet the extraordinary Miko Mini Plus, only at Costco.

Speaker 4 There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anibay sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price.

Speaker 4 Anibay has designed the only fully machine-washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

Speaker 4 Perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy-to-clean, spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style.

Speaker 4 Whether you need a single chair, love seat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Anabay has you covered. Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your home.

Speaker 4 Sofas start at just $699 and right now, get early access to Black Friday savings, up to 60% off store-wide, with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Shop now at washablesofas.com.

Speaker 5 Add a little

Speaker 4 to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 6 When your alarm goes off in the morning, do you feel energized or are you tempted by the snooze button again and again?

Speaker 10 If you're dragging yourself out of bed, fighting brain fog and fatigue, I've been there too.

Speaker 13 Then I found Early Birds Morning Cocktail.

Speaker 14 It's formulated with clinically studied ingredients like clean caffeine, electrolytes, antioxidants, and adaptogens.

Speaker 17 It's a simple morning cocktail that fits seamlessly into my wake-up routine.

Speaker 12 It starts working immediately to combat grogginess, fatigue, and mental blocks.

Speaker 20 One drink, and the brain fog clears. The fatigue lifts.

Speaker 21 I'm in control of my day again.

Speaker 13 Take back your mornings.

Speaker 22 Visit clubearlybird.com and use code BETRAIL for 20% off. That's clubearlybird.com.

Speaker 25 This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture Resist with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 26 This is Bowen Yang from Los Culture Resist with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 25 What if you could boost your Wi-Fi to one of your devices when you need it most? Because Xfinity Wi-Fi can. Like when you need to upload upload 200 photos of your cat in a Santa hat to post online.

Speaker 25 We've all been there.

Speaker 26 And what if your Wi-Fi could proactively fix issues before they even happen?

Speaker 25 Xfinity Wi-Fi does that too.

Speaker 27 It's like having a little holiday helper.

Speaker 26 And what if your Wi-Fi had parental instincts built right in? So your kids are always protected online.

Speaker 25 It's Wi-Fi that's not just smart, it's brilliant. And during the holidays, that's a gift we all could use.

Speaker 26 Xfinity, imagine that.

Speaker 29 Hey guys, before we dive into the episode, we have exciting news.

Speaker 30 Betrayal is coming to Substack, which is an online community.

Speaker 34 We're calling our Substack Beyond Betrayal, a place where we dive deeper into the stories you hear on this show.

Speaker 37 Please consider joining our community to gain access to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal.

Speaker 29 Just head to betrayal.substack.

Speaker 37 That's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K.

Speaker 33 Or just go to substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.

Speaker 39 I'm embarrassed. I'm humiliated.
I'm ashamed. I know what I did was wrong.

Speaker 39 I'm very sorry for it.

Speaker 39 Again, I take full responsibility for all my actions, and I ask for mercy.

Speaker 34 I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 2.

Speaker 40 Cat and Mouse.

Speaker 42 In the last episode, we met Caroline Berega and learned about her husband, former Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Joel Kern.

Speaker 18 On the outside, they were the perfect American family.

Speaker 43 Then, on April 11, 2022, Joel detonated a bomb on his life-a A bomb that would destroy his family.

Speaker 38 It started with a text he sent to his wife that read,

Speaker 47 I was caught receiving oral sex from two women in my cop car.

Speaker 50 I lied about it during an internal affairs investigation.

Speaker 48 I am now pending termination.

Speaker 51 April 11th is now called D-Day by Caroline and her kids.

Speaker 29 Here's Caroline and Joel's daughter, Nicole.

Speaker 52 That evening, I had a lacrosse game, and so I started kind of getting ready for my lacrosse game.

Speaker 41 It started as a normal day, but it soon would become an inflection point.

Speaker 52 My mom called me to follow her into the bathroom, and I don't even remember what she was doing, maybe taking down her hair from her updo.

Speaker 52 She just was acting off, and so I said, what's wrong?

Speaker 53 And

Speaker 52 she didn't respond she was scared something

Speaker 54 was wrong

Speaker 54 did something happen

Speaker 52 and then I said is daddy okay

Speaker 56 Caroline was at a loss for words they all lived with the fear that one day Joel wouldn't come home from work

Speaker 57 but Joel wasn't injured or killed in the line of duty

Speaker 32 Still nothing was okay.

Speaker 34 Caroline and Joel's son was a freshman in college, far from home.

Speaker 58 I get a call from my sister, and so I send it to voicemail. I get another call, and then I hit the text to reply.
I say, I'm about to walk into a chemistry medterm. Can I call you after?

Speaker 58 And

Speaker 58 she texted back, No, it's an emergency. So I pick up the phone and I call her.

Speaker 58 And

Speaker 59 I remember my mom and my sister

Speaker 58 shaking up in tears.

Speaker 32 The family met in the living room.

Speaker 41 Nicole and Caroline sat on the couch.

Speaker 34 Caroline and Joel's son was on speakerphone, and Joel stood in front of the fireplace.

Speaker 32 It was the most bizarre family meeting you could imagine.

Speaker 15 It felt like someone else's life, but no, it was happening in their home.

Speaker 49 Our daughter's sitting right next to me. Our son's on the phone, and the three of us are just in hysterics.
You can hear our son hysterically crying, our daughter's hysterically crying.

Speaker 63 And I said, you need to tell the kids what's going on.

Speaker 19 What was going on?

Speaker 34 Well, to understand the events of April 11th, 2022, we need to go back a few months prior to February 5th.

Speaker 55 That day, a stranger showed up on Caroline and Joel's doorstep.

Speaker 22 Joel was home and answered the door.

Speaker 65 The whole interaction happened to be recorded.

Speaker 57 The sound isn't great, but you'll get the gist of it.

Speaker 31 And we've distorted the stranger's voice to protect his privacy.

Speaker 31 Hey, hey, Alex.

Speaker 31 Nice dogs, man.

Speaker 66 Oh, came as your wife home by chance? What's it? Do you know who I am? No. See, that's my wife out there, the one that you fucked in your cruiser.
What are you talking about?

Speaker 66 I'm not here to harass you. What I'm saying, Joel? Yeah, I'm talking about you.
Okay, my wife.

Speaker 66 Okay, my wife is there. Dave, I wouldn't want to know if you know her.
I have no idea who you're talking about. And if that's the case, then I owe you an apology.

Speaker 66 I'm not, like I said, I'm not here if I was wrong. Do you want me to leave? Then why are you here? So if you don't know my property.
I'll look at your property.

Speaker 66 Dave, like I said, I'm not here to harass you. I will...
That's not what I'm trying to do. I just wanted to know if you know my wife.
No, I don't.

Speaker 66 I know you're a cop and all that stuff, man. I know that.
But that's not cool.

Speaker 66 That's not cool. I just want you to stay away from my wife.
You can't even look me in the face and tell me you made a mistake.

Speaker 66 I don't know who she is. I don't even know who she is.
So leave. I thought you had to be able to look at me man-to-man and say, yeah, I did fuck your wife.
I'm sorry for ruining your marriage.

Speaker 66 No, I'm not. You need to check your wife out because I'm not doing anything.

Speaker 62 And with that, the couple took off, and Joel was left alone to contemplate what just happened.

Speaker 30 This man managed to find his house and came right to his front door.

Speaker 62 Caroline had been out on a run and missed the whole confrontation by minutes.

Speaker 40 But Joel wasn't home alone.

Speaker 37 Nicole was in the basement just doing her homework.

Speaker 52 Usually, I would have went up and just saw who was at the door with him.

Speaker 52 But for whatever reason, I just continued to do my homework.

Speaker 53 And so

Speaker 52 later on, I asked him, you know, who was at the door. And then then he just said, like,

Speaker 52 some solicitor.

Speaker 1 Joel carried on as if nothing happened.

Speaker 33 In fact, later that night, Joel and Caroline went to a party.

Speaker 30 He also never mentioned the confrontation to his family.

Speaker 70 It was a Yellowstone-themed party, and I'm throwing on a blonde wig, pretending to be Beth, and got him a beard to be ripped.

Speaker 72 We left, and we were going to a friend's house who we had been to their home hundreds of times.

Speaker 47 And he pulled up to the wrong house.

Speaker 63 And I said, what are you doing?

Speaker 69 And so he was like, what do you mean?

Speaker 70 And I said, you pulled up to the wrong house.

Speaker 45 He said, oh,

Speaker 5 I didn't know that.

Speaker 50 And so, you know, we back out, go to the right house.

Speaker 68 Okay.

Speaker 40 Caroline laughed it off in the moment.

Speaker 37 Looking back now, she sees that Joel's mind was somewhere else that night.

Speaker 75 But there was bad news for Joel.

Speaker 61 The stranger who came to his door made another stop that day.

Speaker 29 After he pulled out of Joel's driveway, he and his wife drove straight to the Colorado Springs Police Department, or CSPD, and filed an official complaint against Joel.

Speaker 40 After all, an officer having sex in his police car while on duty would be a major professional violation.

Speaker 37 We filed an open records request so we could get those investigation records. Over the past year, we received hundreds of pages from CSPD, all relating to Joel Kern.

Speaker 15 We were also given actual audio recordings from the investigation.

Speaker 60 What you're about to hear is from one of those recordings.

Speaker 31 It's Joel's boss, Commander Stroessner, being interviewed by Internal Affairs about Joel's alleged misconduct.

Speaker 76 How did you become aware of this investigation?

Speaker 78 Can you kind of walk me through that?

Speaker 79 About February 7th, I got a call just advising me that there was internal, a complaint that was filed over the weekend regarding Lieutenant Kern possibly having sex in the back of his vehicle.

Speaker 32 Stroessner was one of the first people Joel went to when he heard about the complaint.

Speaker 79 He adamantly denies anything happened. He goes, I don't even know these people.
I don't know what they're talking about. I haven't seen them before.
There's no way I would do that

Speaker 79 in a police car. He goes,

Speaker 79 made the statement of, I didn't have sex in the back of my car when I was in high school or college. I'm sure is the heck not going to do that now kind of thing.

Speaker 79 Very visibly upset, almost in tears, and just really angry about how somebody could file a false complaint and turn his entire world upside down and his family upside down.

Speaker 79 So he was really upset and really pissed off.

Speaker 29 But was his rage really directed at the couple for making the complaint?

Speaker 43 Or was it directed at the Internal Affairs Department for taking the complaint seriously? Joel was an experienced, respected police lieutenant.

Speaker 29 This investigation threatened to take all that away.

Speaker 79 He goes, I just don't understand why this couldn't have been a preliminary inquiry. I tell you no and this thing will be closed.

Speaker 34 A preliminary inquiry is like an initial check to see if there's any valid reason to suspect that the officer has done something wrong.

Speaker 57 Internal affairs can then decide to move forward with the investigation or close the matter.

Speaker 79 I said, Look, Joel, do you know why it couldn't have been a preliminary inquiry? They got to go through the process.

Speaker 15 Let's be clear: what the complaint was alleging was no ordinary affair.

Speaker 28 They were claiming police misconduct, an officer abusing his badge, having sex in a taxpayer-funded vehicle, on the public's time, and in public.

Speaker 22 Remember, Joel had worked in internal affairs years earlier.

Speaker 15 He understood how it operated.

Speaker 65 Ironically, he had worked in the department with Commander Stroessner.

Speaker 79 I said, we have to do a thorough job. And he's like, yeah, I get it.
But he was very angry.

Speaker 65 But Stroessner also gave Joel some reassurance.

Speaker 79 I said, look, I have no reason not to believe anything that you're telling me.

Speaker 79 Because if you didn't do this, as you're saying, either one of two things, they're completely lying and they need to be charged with false reporting, or somebody's impersonating you and we need to get to the end of that.

Speaker 79 And so we got to do this thoroughly. And I'm going to make sure I stay in contact with internal affairs to make sure it's a complete and thorough investigation.

Speaker 31 Stroessner could tell that Joel was distraught.

Speaker 43 This was a serious matter.

Speaker 22 Someone could be filing a false report or impersonating him.

Speaker 37 Stroessner assured Joel that if someone was victimizing him, they would be held accountable. To complete the investigation, the CSPD took Joel's police vehicle and his department-issued phone.

Speaker 79 If it was me in his shoes, and as he's saying all of it is fabricated, I would be incredibly upset and angry. And to me, it seemed very genuine and authentic.

Speaker 79 I mean, I got no reason to doubt what he's saying.

Speaker 32 This was recorded in February 2022. The investigation into Joel had been going on for two months.

Speaker 34 Two months where he knew his life was on the brink of collapse.

Speaker 43 Meanwhile, Caroline was completely in the dark.

Speaker 29 Joel didn't tell her about the man on their doorstep or the misconduct investigation.

Speaker 37 It seemed like Joel thought that with his rank and years of service, he would be able to talk his way out of this.

Speaker 61 But the CSPD was taking it seriously.

Speaker 34 They went ahead and looked for any evidence that would support the couple's claim.

Speaker 15 And that included interviewing the man and his wife.

Speaker 73 Yes, the couple who showed up at Joel's door agreed to cooperate.

Speaker 12 So internal affairs sat with the woman Joel adamantly denied ever seeing before.

Speaker 24 Here are some of that interview.

Speaker 76 Okay, this is Lieutenant Ronfield Chansai with the Colorado Springs Police Department Internal Affairs section. Today is February 17th, 2022.

Speaker 58 Also present is Internal Affairs Sergeant Drew Jeltis.

Speaker 36 Lieutenant Chanza asked the woman about how she met Joel.

Speaker 34 She explained it was on a Fetish and King social network called FetLife.com.

Speaker 34 And as a note, we've altered the voices of all the civilians interviewed by CSPD to protect their privacy.

Speaker 76 What was it that initially drew your attention to the person we're talking about today?

Speaker 81 He contacted me just like Facebook has messenger.

Speaker 81 There's a messenger within it.

Speaker 37 Joel had suggested that they meet at a public park.

Speaker 81 I drove in my vehicle to go meet him. When I got to the location, which was Memorial Park,

Speaker 81 he was in what looked like an unmarked police car.

Speaker 81 I imagine the first question would be, how would I know that? I've got a number of officers in my family who I've seen their unmarked vehicles, I do know what they look like.

Speaker 81 He could see I was nervous, I was shaken, and at that point it probably should have stopped.

Speaker 84 Did the two of you have anything in common, any fetishes as you described them,

Speaker 84 that kind of

Speaker 76 made you kind of continue the conversation?

Speaker 81 Yes, he was into domination and I was into submission. He told me that he would enjoy spanking me and

Speaker 81 fisting me and

Speaker 81 choking me and pulling my hair.

Speaker 76 So what leads you to believe that this person was a police officer?

Speaker 81 He did it. He was.

Speaker 76 Can you tell us a little more about that?

Speaker 81 He eventually told me his name and

Speaker 81 You know, eventually told me that he was a police officer with Springs Police. Told me he did traffic investigations.

Speaker 82 So

Speaker 76 when he told you his name, what name did he give you?

Speaker 27 Joel Kern.

Speaker 76 Were you physically harmed in any way? I know you said bruised.

Speaker 76 Were you harmed in any way during this encounter?

Speaker 81 I mean, I was bruised and that's about the extent of it.

Speaker 81 The damage I'll suffer is on me.

Speaker 26 Was there any aspect of this meeting that was non-consensual from your perspective?

Speaker 26 No.

Speaker 81 This isn't about digging into his life and trying

Speaker 81 to harm him. It is simply about, as an officer, he should not be using his vehicle to have what I imagine is probably not the first rendezvous.

Speaker 77 What makes you you say that, that this, that you believe this wasn't his first?

Speaker 81 Because he discussed enjoying having meetups such as this.

Speaker 1 This woman had come to regret her actions and confessed to her husband.

Speaker 22 She gave her husband access to her computer and all her passwords.

Speaker 17 She was remorseful about the encounter.

Speaker 22 and took responsibility for her part in it.

Speaker 34 The woman fully disclosed her actions to her husband and agreed to accompany him to Joel's house.

Speaker 15 However, as you heard, things didn't go as planned.

Speaker 34 They, of course, reported him.

Speaker 20 The woman's story was credible.

Speaker 34 And when police searched Joel's phone and computer, they found evidence supporting her story.

Speaker 36 And then they identified another woman Joel had met up with.

Speaker 62 He planned this one on his work phone.

Speaker 37 But it seemed like he forgot to delete a few messages from the exchange.

Speaker 34 This woman had also met Joel on FetLife.

Speaker 37 Although she was cooperative, she seemed less eager to discuss the encounter.

Speaker 40 An internal affairs sergeant contacted her by phone.

Speaker 39 So you started talking, you think, online in August 2021. You spoke on the phone.
He would call you and you spoke through WhatsApp.

Speaker 39 When's the first time you said you met? When's the first time you actually met in person?

Speaker 82 I believe it was he was at conference in Denver and we just met briefly when he was on his way back. Like the last day that he was going back to the springs.

Speaker 31 The woman and Joel had talked and texted for several weeks.

Speaker 29 He had attended a work conference in Denver.

Speaker 40 After talking online and on the phone, there was an opening to meet up on the way back from the conference.

Speaker 60 They met in the parking lot of a sporting goods store.

Speaker 18 But here was the information Internal Affairs was really after.

Speaker 28 Had Joel used his police car to have sex with her, and was it while he was on duty?

Speaker 39 Was there anything in that vehicle that made you think that it was probably not his personal vehicle?

Speaker 82 The radio,

Speaker 82 a police radio, scanner, whatever you call them.

Speaker 39 You got into a silver SUV. You don't remember the maker model, but it you believe is a police vehicle because it has a radio in it.

Speaker 77 Uh-huh.

Speaker 39 Maybe there for 20 to 30 minutes, and you engaged in vaginal sex in the backseat of that vehicle. Yeah.

Speaker 59 And

Speaker 39 other than that, there was no other meetings. You've still talked as friends, but no

Speaker 39 sex.

Speaker 77 No. No.

Speaker 39 And let me ask this.

Speaker 39 I was reading through some text messages between you and Joel, and one of them says, like, something about there's been some drama and I've deleted everything not to worry about it.

Speaker 39 Do you remember that text thread?

Speaker 82 Yes, I do.

Speaker 39 What was that about?

Speaker 82 I mean,

Speaker 82 he told me that

Speaker 82 there was something going on.

Speaker 82 He didn't really go into detail.

Speaker 82 But I guess I wasn't surprised when I got your message yesterday.

Speaker 87 Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean.

Speaker 83 Where did that story come from?

Speaker 68 Book?

Speaker 3 Dream? Nope, it came from a conversation. Meet Miko Mini Plus, the AI companion that co-creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time.

Speaker 88 What color was the hamster's cape? And what did he pack for lunch?

Speaker 3 Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini Plus and the magic of AI exclusively at Costco.

Speaker 38 Traditional security systems respond after someone breaks in.

Speaker 10 Simply Safe is different because it can stop crimes before they happen with its Active Guard outdoor protection.

Speaker 38 I've been using Simply Safe for the past two years and I keep finding reasons to recommend it to my friends and family.

Speaker 38 With Simply Safe's 24-7 Proactive Protection, I have never felt safer in my own home. I love that indoor cameras allow me to check in on my pets during the day or while I'm traveling for work.

Speaker 38 Also, Simply Safe's AI-powered cameras detect threats while they're still outside your home and alert real security agents.

Speaker 18 The agents can confront the intruder, letting them know they're being watched on camera and that police are on their way and even sounding a loud siren and triggering a spotlight if needed.

Speaker 20 This is how you stop a crime before it starts.

Speaker 15 There are no long-term contracts or hidden fees and you can cancel anytime.

Speaker 38 And Simply Safe has been named best home security systems by U.S.

Speaker 43 News and World Report for five years running.

Speaker 38 There's a 60-day money-back guarantee, so you can try it and see the difference for yourself. Don't miss out on SimplySafe's biggest sale of the year, 60% off.

Speaker 38 Right now, our listeners can save 60% off on SimplySafe home security system at simplysafe.com slash betrayal.

Speaker 51 That's simplysafe.com slash betrayal.

Speaker 38 There's no safe like SimplySafe.

Speaker 4 There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anibay sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price.

Speaker 4 Anibay has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

Speaker 4 Perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy-to-clean, spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style.

Speaker 4 Whether you need a single chair, love seat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Anibay has you covered. Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your home.

Speaker 4 Sofas started just $699 and right now, get early access to Black Friday savings, up to 60% off store-wide, with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Shop now at washablesofas.com.

Speaker 5 Add a little

Speaker 4 to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 6 When your alarm goes off in the morning, do you feel energized?

Speaker 8 Or are you tempted by the snooze button again and again?

Speaker 10 If you're dragging yourself out of bed, fighting brain fog and fatigue, I've been there too.

Speaker 13 Then I found Early Bird's Morning Cocktail.

Speaker 14 It's formulated with clinically studied ingredients like clean caffeine, electrolytes, antioxidants, and adaptogens.

Speaker 17 It's a simple morning cocktail that fits seamlessly into my wake-up routine.

Speaker 12 It starts working immediately to combat grogginess, fatigue, and mental blocks.

Speaker 20 One drink, and the brain fog clears. The fatigue lifts.

Speaker 21 I'm in control of my day again.

Speaker 13 Take back your mornings.

Speaker 22 Visit clubearlybird.com and use code BETRAYAL for 20% off. That's clubearlybird.com.

Speaker 10 Despite Joel's adamant denials, it appeared he had, in fact, had sex in his police vehicle during work hours.

Speaker 37 CSPD conducted a full investigation.

Speaker 18 Internal affairs even ordered a forensic analysis of the car's interior.

Speaker 65 They determined that the complaint was true.

Speaker 36 Joel had been having sex with women in his police car in public on company time.

Speaker 65 On April 11th, Joel was summoned to a meeting with his commander, and you'll hear that meeting in a later episode.

Speaker 34 And it was on that day that he could no longer hide the investigation from Caroline and their kids.

Speaker 11 In the early evening on April 11th, 2022, Joel was home with his family.

Speaker 34 Caroline and Nicole sat huddled together on the living room sofa.

Speaker 30 There were tears, accusations, and grief.

Speaker 33 Their son was on speakerphone from college, alternating between anguish and disgust.

Speaker 47 As he sat in our home, he swore up and down to the kids. It was only two times.
It was only these two people. That's it.
It was only these two people.

Speaker 37 He was only admitting to what the CSPD had already uncovered.

Speaker 31 Meanwhile, he told his family a tearful story about what happened.

Speaker 48 He said, I started going down a rabbit hole online when I worked at night, and I would see these different websites.

Speaker 50 And out of curiosity, I started corresponding with different people on different websites.

Speaker 47 And that's how I met these two people. It was only these two times.
It was only these two times.

Speaker 52 I was just astonished that he could do this to our family.

Speaker 58 All I could keep saying was, how could you do this to my mom and my sister? How could you do this?

Speaker 63 You know, it's one thing to try to digest that when you have just been betrayed by your spouse.

Speaker 50 But sitting here and watch your kids

Speaker 47 is just a completely different level.

Speaker 36 Joel insisted that he only had been unfaithful with two people.

Speaker 16 But Caroline wasn't naive.

Speaker 33 She knew there had to be more.

Speaker 63 You know, I had enough sense to say, if I secure a divorce attorney and they were to do an open records request act, What else would they find in your file?

Speaker 73 And he looked terrified.

Speaker 18 With Caroline's words still hanging in the air, Joel dropped another bombshell.

Speaker 34 Back in episode one, we learned he'd been tapped for one of the department's most sought-after roles: the public information officer. He'd be the face of the department, the media liaison, the voice.

Speaker 75 He'd already done the job temporarily.

Speaker 75 Then, out of nowhere, the offer vanished.

Speaker 71 He said,

Speaker 27 I had a falling out with the chief.

Speaker 71 And I said, you had a falling out with the chief of police.

Speaker 48 And he said, I had a falling out with him.

Speaker 50 And he's taken away my opportunity to be the public information officer.

Speaker 12 But that had been a lie.

Speaker 65 There hadn't been an issue with the chief.

Speaker 64 The issue had been with Joel.

Speaker 50 He did not get the public information officer position because of sexual harassment.

Speaker 34 While Joel served as temporary public information officer in 2016, he asked female reporters to use an encrypted app to communicate with him.

Speaker 56 And what he said there unnerved the reporters.

Speaker 32 When one reporter heard Joel Kern was going to be appointed the permanent public information officer in 2019,

Speaker 40 she was alarmed and wrote a letter.

Speaker 43 Here's how it began.

Speaker 54 To the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'm writing to voice my concerns about naming Lieutenant Joel Kern the next PIO.

Speaker 18 To accuse anyone of inappropriate behavior is a risk.

Speaker 34 But to accuse an officer, especially one that controls which media members get information and how fast, could be career suicide.

Speaker 15 But that is what most emboldened me to voice my concerns now.

Speaker 37 This letter led to Joel Kern's first internal affairs investigation for sexually harassing female news reporters.

Speaker 55 The CSPD started by interviewing the reporter that wrote the letter.

Speaker 91 This is Commander Tish Oszewski with Color Springs Police Department Internal Affairs Section. Today is February 7th, 2019.

Speaker 42 Internal Affairs asked the reporter about the app Joel asked her to download.

Speaker 92 He encouraged me to get the WhatsApp.

Speaker 92 so that we could communicate in a way that his phone would be more secure from the police department as in if he was giving me tips of some sort,

Speaker 92 so that it would be encrypted and it would be on his personal phone and it couldn't be taken, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 92 He never explicitly said,

Speaker 92 Do you want to do anything with me? or like he never explicitly asked me out or

Speaker 92 you know things like that nature. It was all very sneaky and about interpretation.

Speaker 94 What do you mean by sneaky?

Speaker 92 Sneaky as in,

Speaker 92 he would use words that would be suggestive or language that would be suggestive, and it felt to me like a test to see how I took it. He brought up sexual relations with his wife.

Speaker 92 And again, I don't remember exactly what was said, but I remember that he was on vacation or at his son's base or not baseball, but some kind of sporting event away.

Speaker 92 And he had mentioned like something along the lines of you know maybe i'll get lucky or

Speaker 92 when you have kids the only time you have sex is when you're away or something like that um that obviously was inappropriate and kind of opened the door if i wanted to talk about sexual relations you you had uh wrote that this became obvious that the friendlier i was the more beneficial it could be so tell me about this so what do you mean by friendlier

Speaker 92 If I would have accepted his advances or been sexual in return or,

Speaker 92 you know, when I explained I felt like he was open the door to talk about my sexual life, if I would have done that kind of stuff, like just given that green light that I'm okay with this behavior.

Speaker 91 Okay. So what was the benefit?

Speaker 92 The benefit was the whole point in

Speaker 92 telling me to get WhatsApp was, you know, this was a way for him to give us tips.

Speaker 92 So the benefit was if we're friendly, if we have this good relationship, then he would give us good scoops and tips about things going on in the police department.

Speaker 31 The reporter knew of other women who felt the same way, but they either decided it was too risky to complain or felt it didn't rise to the level of needing to report.

Speaker 43 So without any other complaints, the investigation was relatively thin, and it looked like Joel was going to talk his way out of this one.

Speaker 16 We actually received the recording of Joel doing exactly that.

Speaker 91 This is Commander Tish Oszzewski with Carl Springs Police Department Professional Standards Division. Today is February 11th, 2019.

Speaker 91 I am interviewing Lieutenant Joel Kern in regards to Internal Affairs Case 19-030.

Speaker 34 Oszewski asked Joel to explain why he had urged reporters to download WhatsApp, WhatsApp, an encrypted app that his supervisors couldn't monitor.

Speaker 34 This was a violation of department rules, and Joel knew it.

Speaker 39 At the time, there was like this big thing in the media about, you know, stories being leaked and released, and then there were different apps that people would communicate to reporters about to be

Speaker 39 like a safe method of communication with the reporters or whatever. Safe, meaning like secure.

Speaker 34 At first, Joel said it was for security. But the IA officer wasn't buying that.

Speaker 91 I guess I don't understand if you're worried about stories leaking.

Speaker 95 Why was it only these two women?

Speaker 39 Well, I mean, I see where you're going with that.

Speaker 39 And again,

Speaker 39 it's because I was communicating with them the most, like, the one that was always asking the questions the most.

Speaker 39 I don't think it was anything that would be like a targeting thing or anything like that.

Speaker 95 Were you trying to just target? And when you say target, I mean

Speaker 95 get more friendlier with those two, maybe hoping it might go somewhere.

Speaker 39 I think if I was honest with myself, then I would say, yeah, that would be an accurate statement.

Speaker 95 Are they young? Are they old? Or

Speaker 39 middle-aged, I guess. Late 20s, early 30s.

Speaker 91 Okay, middle-aged, Joel.

Speaker 95 It's like 50, okay?

Speaker 91 Are they attractive? Are they not?

Speaker 39 Okay.

Speaker 93 So

Speaker 95 you were saying that you were singling those two out for the WhatsApp?

Speaker 39 That sounds bad, but yeah.

Speaker 39 I think that would, if I'm honest with myself, that would be a fair statement.

Speaker 39 You know, they're very smart and, like I say, witty, and they're just fun to

Speaker 39 talk to.

Speaker 39 And then, so I think then that's where the flirtation came in and then the sexual innuendo.

Speaker 39 It wouldn't be something that I'd want my wife or kids reading, obviously.

Speaker 92 So, Joel, when you're talking about the flirtation, was that on your part?

Speaker 91 Or whose part was that on?

Speaker 39 I think it was...

Speaker 39 I think it was like mutual flirtation. And then,

Speaker 39 oh.

Speaker 39 Things weren't good at home.

Speaker 31 Right as the conversation gets to the heart of the issue, his abuse of power, Joel pivots.

Speaker 34 He wells up with tears and changes the subject to what he's been going through recently.

Speaker 91 Why did you have these conversations with them? The sexual innuendo conversation.

Speaker 39 I was in a bad place

Speaker 39 with my marriage at the time and emotionally. And then

Speaker 39 I think I got

Speaker 39 maybe just like sucked into a trap.

Speaker 39 or reading things into things that were being said that were not really there.

Speaker 31 Caroline had no idea her marriage was in a bad place in 2019.

Speaker 31 If you remember from episode one, Caroline shared Joel had a few breakdowns and ultimately started therapy.

Speaker 37 He had mentioned witnessing the carnage from fatal accident scenes and his fear about their kids starting to drive.

Speaker 34 But she'd been there for him, and they worked through it as a couple.

Speaker 37 As the interview continued, Joel read the room.

Speaker 1 He realized his best strategy would be to fall on the sword.

Speaker 39 I'm embarrassed. I'm humiliated.
I'm ashamed. I know what I did was wrong.
I'm very sorry for it.

Speaker 39 And

Speaker 39 I've

Speaker 39 taken proactive steps to help myself get better. Again, I take full responsibility for all my actions.
You know, I asked for mercy.

Speaker 34 Joel had been on the record pleading for mercy three years before his official suspension, which was on April 11th, 2022.

Speaker 60 And on April 11th, the truth was finally being laid bare in their living room.

Speaker 44 Caroline and their daughter were on the couch, and their son was on speakerphone.

Speaker 55 They listened to Joel confess that he'd been lying and covering his tracks for years.

Speaker 45 And then he went on a tirade of continuing to blame me and said that he didn't think we had sex enough.

Speaker 89 And then he started making crass comments about his sexual needs.

Speaker 50 Our daughter was just wailing and crying.

Speaker 73 And our son hung up.

Speaker 49 He never removed his wedding ring.

Speaker 50 He always kept it on.

Speaker 44 But then?

Speaker 73 He struggled for a long time, but finally gets his ring off

Speaker 73 inside of it.

Speaker 68 I had engraved forever and ever.

Speaker 49 Sets it down on the fireplace,

Speaker 49 walks over and fills up his yeti cup,

Speaker 72 and just walked out the door.

Speaker 87 Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean.

Speaker 83 Where did that story come from?

Speaker 68 Book?

Speaker 3 Dream? Nope, it came from a conversation. Meet Miko Mini Plus, the AI companion that co-creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time.

Speaker 88 What color was the hamster's cape? And what did he pack for lunch?

Speaker 3 Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini Plus and the magic of AI exclusively at Costco.

Speaker 4 Life gets messy. Spills, stains, and kid chaos.
But with Anibay, cleaning up is easy. Our sofas are fully machine washable, inside and out, so you never have to stress about messes again.

Speaker 4 Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Speaker 4 Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Speaker 4 Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth-friendly and built to last.
That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch.

Speaker 4 Get early access to Black Friday pricing right now. Sofas started just $699.

Speaker 4 Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com.
Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 6 When your alarm goes off in the morning, do you feel energized or are you tempted by the snooze button again and again?

Speaker 10 If you're dragging yourself out of bed, fighting brain fog and fatigue, I've been there too.

Speaker 13 Then I found Early Bird's Morning Cocktail.

Speaker 14 It's formulated with clinically studied ingredients like clean caffeine, electrolytes, antioxidants, and adaptogens.

Speaker 17 It's a simple morning cocktail that fits seamlessly into my wake-up routine.

Speaker 12 It starts working immediately to combat grogginess, fatigue, and mental blocks.

Speaker 20 One drink, and the brain fog clears. The fatigue lifts.

Speaker 21 I'm in control of my day again.

Speaker 13 Take back your mornings.

Speaker 22 Visit clubearlybird.com and use code BETRAYAL for 20% off. That's clubearlybird.com.

Speaker 98 Scams are everywhere. On your phone, in your inbox, even on your television screen.

Speaker 35 Looking at you, Tinder Swindler. What is it about scams that has pop culture so obsessed? Maybe it's because it could happen to anyone.

Speaker 96 Or maybe it's because we're all so deeply fascinated by the psyche of someone who can lie with ease, cheat with no guilt, and convince the world that they are who they say they are, even when they're not.

Speaker 35 Scamfluencers is a weekly podcast that takes you into the world of deception, sharing the stories of today's most notorious scams.

Speaker 96 Like the recent episode of Natalie Cochran, the pharmacist femme fatale. It seemed like she had it all.
A good job, loving husband, and two kids.

Speaker 96 But behind the scenes, Natalie was scamming friends and family using fake contracts, fake government emails, and she even faked cancer.

Speaker 96 But when the walls start closing in, she'll do anything to keep the lie alive until someone ends up dead.

Speaker 98 Listen to Scamfluencers Now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 54 Caroline's entire world had come apart in a single afternoon.

Speaker 34 Immediately, she reached out to a close friend who would soon take on a greater role in her life.

Speaker 99 My name is Don,

Speaker 99 and I'm a family law attorney.

Speaker 15 Dawn was a good friend to both Caroline and Joel.

Speaker 99 I was shocked, absolutely shocked when I heard the news. For me to not even have an inkling of his other side, I guess, bothered me because I usually have a pretty good gut feeling about people.

Speaker 29 Dawn normally made it policy not to represent her friends in a divorce, but she made an exception this time.

Speaker 41 Not so much for Caroline, but for the kids.

Speaker 99 The children are very proud of their parents' accomplishments. They really appreciated and respected what they did.

Speaker 99 That was part of their identity is that their parents were so great.

Speaker 99 So when

Speaker 99 this all happened,

Speaker 99 my inkling for the children was

Speaker 99 everything that they know, everything that they thought was good and pure or whatever, real,

Speaker 99 is not.

Speaker 31 The kids had to find a way to keep going.

Speaker 33 Their son wanted to come home from college, but Caroline wouldn't allow it.

Speaker 5 And their daughter?

Speaker 52 Everything happened on a Monday and that Wednesday I took my SATs.

Speaker 52 I had a plan, like I still needed to go to college. So, you know, she kind of ingrained, I guess, a sort of motivation where you need to do something, you just get it done.

Speaker 62 As for Caroline, she was on autopilot.

Speaker 31 Her friends came to her with some unsettling but important advice.

Speaker 47 You know, they let me know you really should set a doctor's appointment to make sure that I don't have anything and have a full STI, STD screen.

Speaker 47 And so I called this facility, humiliated, asked if I could schedule an appointment specifically for this. They said yes.

Speaker 56 And when I walked in, I tried to keep myself together.

Speaker 100 And then I sat in the exam room and this nurse practitioner who I had seen dozens of times for my kids' sports physicals, she walked in the room and I just immediately lost it.

Speaker 69 I'm in this exam room.

Speaker 68 I'm crying.

Speaker 50 I'm telling her these very personal details of what's just been revealed.

Speaker 63 And so

Speaker 63 she does a full exam and she leaves the room. And when she came back in, she just had this horrible, fearful look on her face.

Speaker 63 And I just was sobbing.

Speaker 47 And I said, you can tell I have something, can't you?

Speaker 63 You can already tell I have something.

Speaker 63 And she shook her head and she said, no.

Speaker 63 She was debating on telling me that

Speaker 69 Joel had essentially been blacklisted from seeing her because he had come in

Speaker 73 for different appointments before and had been

Speaker 50 inappropriate with his commentary and very sexualized with his commentary toward her.

Speaker 50 And I was mortified.

Speaker 63 And she said, given what I was going through, if she was in my shoes, she'd want to know.

Speaker 22 Caroline had asked Joel repeatedly, what else?

Speaker 37 What else have you done?

Speaker 22 She didn't want any more surprises.

Speaker 65 There had to be more than just two affairs.

Speaker 1 And this experience was confirmation that her instincts were dead on.

Speaker 73 I was just humiliated hearing from another female that

Speaker 90 my husband had approached them in a manner that made them feel so uncomfortable that they could not even professionally see him.

Speaker 68 It was humiliating.

Speaker 45 Absolutely humiliating.

Speaker 5 I got to the parking lot and I called him and he answered.

Speaker 47 And I said to him, This is what was just told to me.

Speaker 45 And he was very calm.

Speaker 47 And he said, I'm sorry.

Speaker 45 And I said,

Speaker 49 you knew this?

Speaker 45 And he said, yes.

Speaker 48 They let me know.

Speaker 68 And I knew how I behaved.

Speaker 90 And I'm embarrassed.

Speaker 73 And he was just so matter of fact about it.

Speaker 69 And I was infuriated, absolutely infuriated.

Speaker 45 And I saw his location and I drove to the campsite where he was at at the RV park.

Speaker 18 Joel was staying in their family RV at a campground.

Speaker 50 And I just started banging on the door.

Speaker 71 and he opened the door and I told him, do not lie to me. Do not lie to me.

Speaker 48 I want to know what you have done.

Speaker 69 You are someone who I don't even know and I want to know the secret life that you have lived behind our backs.

Speaker 34 Nicole was at school when she noticed Caroline's location on their Family Life 360 app.

Speaker 52 I don't really want to have my mom alone with my dad because

Speaker 101 I was really scared of my dad because I thought like he did all this stuff without us knowing. I don't know what he's capable of.

Speaker 69 Next thing you know, there's banging at the door of our RV.

Speaker 73 She just got up and left her classroom at the high school and drove to where we were at.

Speaker 50 And as we were sitting there, she walked calmly over to a laptop he had taken from our home.

Speaker 65 Nicole grabbed Joel's computer and started looking through it, logging onto various websites and reading his emails and text messages.

Speaker 75 They were there for the truth.

Speaker 29 All those long nights on duty, what else had Joel been up to?

Speaker 31 How far did his misconduct go?

Speaker 49 Suddenly, through our daughter's forensic reveal of his computer,

Speaker 47 the number of people he had sex with just started growing dramatically.

Speaker 29 Nicole dialed in her older brother.

Speaker 31 She wanted him to hear everything.

Speaker 43 So it became the next family meeting.

Speaker 61 And then Nicole started recording on her phone.

Speaker 62 She wanted documentation.

Speaker 42 She and her mom were running on adrenaline.

Speaker 34 Cat and mouse, cat and mouse, cat and mouse, you just have to keep being caught.

Speaker 50 Why can't you just spell it all out?

Speaker 59 Because I can't remember everything.

Speaker 31 Because you had so many people?

Speaker 34 How many people did you talk to?

Speaker 5 50?

Speaker 98 100? What's the range?

Speaker 39 50 sounds good.

Speaker 34 How many times did you actually physically meet someone?

Speaker 39 This is what I'm telling you, like

Speaker 39 around

Speaker 39 7 to 10.

Speaker 9 And then...

Speaker 52 Another thought I had today.

Speaker 52 I cannot drive around the city without questioning. I wonder if my dad received oral sex in this parking lot.

Speaker 52 Remember that day we went to Memorial Park? We looked at the

Speaker 52 police memorial and all that?

Speaker 72 He wanted us to see the police memorial.

Speaker 52 We ran races over by Memorial Park.

Speaker 56 Memorial Park was where Joel met the first woman to have sex in his cop car.

Speaker 32 At first, he denied he was working when they met up.

Speaker 21 But then.

Speaker 79 I know I had told you

Speaker 80 after work earlier, but

Speaker 80 I'm pretty sure it was like mid-morning or lunchtime or whatever and then went back to work and

Speaker 80 then

Speaker 39 worked out and took a shower and all that.

Speaker 73 So you left work, went and had sex with someone on the city's dime?

Speaker 8 Everyone thought Joel was one of the good ones.

Speaker 5 An honorable cop.

Speaker 28 They had sacrificed so much for his career.

Speaker 34 She didn't recognize this man.

Speaker 62 In fact, she didn't recognize her life at all.

Speaker 34 Her life was now split into two.

Speaker 15 Two realities running parallel tracks.

Speaker 29 There were her memories.

Speaker 31 And then there was everything Joel was doing behind her back.

Speaker 34 All of those late nights, the missed sports games, the holidays.

Speaker 54 Where was he?

Speaker 75 Her brain never went there.

Speaker 33 She didn't know what was real anymore. It was a sad and terrifying feeling.

Speaker 73 The kids and I thought

Speaker 27 we were

Speaker 27 living this life of love and a family

Speaker 27 and purity.

Speaker 27 Were things perfect? Of course not.

Speaker 74 Did we argue about taking trash out and who was going to pick up from dinner?

Speaker 63 yup.

Speaker 27 But never did I think that anything like this was going on behind our backs, ever.

Speaker 31 So was this finally the full picture?

Speaker 34 Were all of Joel's secrets out in the open?

Speaker 6 No,

Speaker 40 not even close.

Speaker 29 Here's Caroline and Joel's son.

Speaker 58 I'm not naive to the fact that all of us are human and everybody makes mistakes and everybody has their shortcomings and everybody has flaws and demons that they cope with.

Speaker 58 But to me, there's a clear line here between being a fallible person

Speaker 58 and monstrosity.

Speaker 1 On the next episode of Betrayal, Caroline comes to the realization that Joel has been gaslighting her for years.

Speaker 63 I'm literally watching the phone where I can see him speeding to our house.

Speaker 45 He's not at another accident. He's not at the hospital.

Speaker 50 He's coming from somewhere.

Speaker 70 And so when he got home, I said, are you lying to me?

Speaker 36 And more revelations about his double life are exposed.

Speaker 31 Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4.

Speaker 34 If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.

Speaker 23 That's betrayal, P-O-D, at gmail.com.

Speaker 22 Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at betrayalpod and me, Andrea H.

Speaker 1 Gunning, for all betrayal content, news, and updates.

Speaker 34 One way to support the series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 65 Please rate and review Betrayal.

Speaker 23 Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do.

Speaker 46 Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

Speaker 34 The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.

Speaker 34 Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning.

Speaker 22 Written and produced by Carrie Hartman.

Speaker 15 Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri.

Speaker 34 Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Krinchek.

Speaker 33 Story editing by Monique Laborde.

Speaker 57 Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio.

Speaker 34 Editing by Tanner Robbins.

Speaker 18 And special thanks to Caroline and her family.

Speaker 65 Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.

Speaker 21 Music library provided by MyMusic.

Speaker 46 And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 87 Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean.

Speaker 83 Where did that story come from?

Speaker 68 Book?

Speaker 3 Dream? Nope, it came from a conversation. Meet Miko Mini Plus, the AI companion that co-creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time.

Speaker 88 What color was the hamster's cape? And what did he pack for lunch?

Speaker 3 Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini Plus and the magic of AI exclusively at Costco.

Speaker 34 You know that feeling when your alarm goes off and your first thought is, why do I feel so awful?

Speaker 22 It's like being betrayed by your own body.

Speaker 51 But here's the plot twist. It's not your fault.

Speaker 12 Dehydration and brain fog are sabotaging you beneath the surface.

Speaker 22 When I found Early Bird's morning cocktail, I felt the shift immediately.

Speaker 34 It's this blood-orange mimosa drink that you mix the night before and you keep on your nightstand.

Speaker 14 When the alarm goes off, you drink and it's like flipping a switch.

Speaker 11 Clean energy, no brain fog, no crash.

Speaker 21 I'm in control of my day again.

Speaker 18 Early Bird is clinically engineered to target morning fatigue from all angles.

Speaker 12 There's clean, natural caffeine, mood-lifting nootropics, and a supercharged electrolyte blend to combat dehydration.

Speaker 38 This is more than just a morning drink.

Speaker 8 It's a science-backed tool to help you take control of your mornings and own your potential.

Speaker 38 It gives me the energy to show up as the best, most accomplished version of myself.

Speaker 34 Discover how good it feels to rise and grind on your own terms.

Speaker 22 Visit clubearlybird.com and use code BETRAL for 20% off.

Speaker 29 That's clubearlybird.com.

Speaker 94 This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity?

Speaker 94 They may be happening to you without you knowing.

Speaker 94 If anyone has ever said you snored loudly or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability, and concentration issues, it may be due to OSA.

Speaker 94 OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleeponosa.com.

Speaker 94 This information is provided provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

Speaker 84 Hey, Ron Reynolds here, wishing you a very happy half-off holiday because right now, Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service.

Speaker 84 Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

Speaker 97 So that means a half day.

Speaker 84 Yeah? Give it a try at mintmobile.com/slash switch.

Speaker 97 Upfront payment $45 for three month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only.
Speed flow out of 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra.

Speaker 5 See MintMobile.com.

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart Podcast.