RuPaul: Blocking Out the Bullshit (FBF)

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Speaker 1 What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Speaker 1 Okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 2 RuPaul, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thanks.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much for being here. I am very, very excited to talk to you.
I think my fans are going to freak out. I think this collab is going to be very fun.
When are you your most confident?

Speaker 2 When I'm alone.

Speaker 2 People freak me out, man. People freak.
People are freaky.

Speaker 2 Most people think of confidence as power or as having stuff or doing things but it's that's not I feel most confident when I'm not distracted by other people's bullshit period would you consider yourself high or low maintenance oh I am so low maintenance

Speaker 2 I am so low maintenance you would not believe it

Speaker 2 how yes I can take care of myself and you know what uh

Speaker 1 I open my own door I take care of myself being alone with yourself, being good with yourself, and relying on yourself, it's kind of all you fucking need.

Speaker 2 It really is.

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Speaker 1 Okay, let's talk about your memoir. Congratulations.
The House of Hidden Meanings. I think that this book is incredible because you offer like a very personal look into your childhood.

Speaker 1 You offer a personal look into early relationships and just some of the biggest struggles that you've been through in your life. So let's get into it.
As a little boy, did you want to be famous?

Speaker 1 Like would anyone have been surprised that you became famous in your life?

Speaker 2 No one would have been surprised that I became famous. And

Speaker 2 did I want to become famous? It wasn't even about did I want to. I knew it was my destiny.
I felt that people had pointed me out from a very early age. It's just, hey, who are you? What are you doing?

Speaker 2 Who are you? You know, I was always,

Speaker 2 different is the wrong term. It was someone that people noticed, right?

Speaker 2 So I knew that somehow my destiny involved being out front. And the truth is, I am an introvert masquerading as an extrovert.
And I can do it. I can do the thing like, hey, how you doing? What's up?

Speaker 2 Hey, you know what? Is that cashmere? Oh my God, I love cashmere. Cashmere, not the word cashmere, you know, where I just go on and just look like I'm being open, open, open.

Speaker 2 I know how to do it, but the truth is, my real sense is, you know, I'm. Just being chill.
Just being chill.

Speaker 1 Do you get exhausted?

Speaker 2 It can exhaust me.

Speaker 2 You know, if I'm not working, I like to spend time alone to recharge my battery. But it can be exhausting.

Speaker 2 Now, I usually keep that hidden, tucked away, and I pretend like, oh my God, is that cashmere? And I'll do the thing. But the truth is, I don't give a fuck about cashmere.

Speaker 2 But I do that to

Speaker 2 get through life and to maintain and to, you know, to get endorsement deals and to get

Speaker 2 people to like me on social and do all the stuff.

Speaker 1 First of all, thank you for just being honest because I think a lot of people actually will completely relate to what you're saying of like...

Speaker 1 It's fucking exhausting trying to walk into work, walk into rooms and having to put on a facade because at the end of the day, none of us are going to be completely the same when we walk into a room with other people than we are when we're alone.

Speaker 1 But there is a world of social currency that you need to somewhat engage in, especially if this is your career. It's like, you're right, you got to sit across from me right now.

Speaker 1 And I'm sorry, but I'm going to ask you questions about this memoir.

Speaker 2 Listen, I do enjoy cashmere from time to time. You know, I can do the thing, but what most people don't know about me is that

Speaker 2 base-level thing, which is

Speaker 2 don't take any of this too seriously. Otherwise, you get yourself caught up in trouble and

Speaker 2 wars and

Speaker 2 getting your feelings hurt. I mean, it's...
It's a lot. It's a lot.

Speaker 1 In the book, you talk a lot about your family dynamics. Can you kind of paint the picture of what your relationship was like with your mother growing up?

Speaker 2 I loved my mother. I love the fact that she, too, she didn't believe the bullshit.
She just didn't. And unfortunately for her, I think most of that came out of world weariness.

Speaker 2 And I think she didn't talk about her childhood very much,

Speaker 2 or at all. But I have a feeling some really awful things happened to her as a little girl.
And

Speaker 2 so she was very world-weary. So she didn't put up the pretense, you know, like I can do the cashmere speak.
She did not at

Speaker 2 all.

Speaker 2 at all.

Speaker 2 And she would cuss someone out. We could cuss in the house.
We could, you know, and, you know, I felt growing up my role was to sort of lift her up. And I did.

Speaker 2 And I would do my impersonations for her, you know, of Tina Turner or Geraldine from the Flip Wilson show. But she was, she had a dark, dark cloud over her.
And I related to that.

Speaker 2 And I understood it very well because

Speaker 2 If you look at the world with x-ray eyes, there is so much darkness and sadness. So I choose joy.
Now, that doesn't mean that I don't recognize

Speaker 2 the darkness or the pain, but,

Speaker 2 and I do. I look at the darkness, but I don't stare at it.

Speaker 2 I'm going to say that again so you motherfuckers can get it.

Speaker 2 I look at the darkness, but I don't stare because it will suck you in. And you are a powerful witch.
You are powerful. You can create whatever life you want.
Life asks,

Speaker 2 what do you want me to be?

Speaker 2 Okay, I'll be that.

Speaker 1 I also was just thinking, I may be butchering this.

Speaker 1 I remember there was this one line that you wrote about her basically saying something about, like, if I'm not paying their fucking taxes, why the fuck do I give a shit what they're doing?

Speaker 2 If they ain't paying your bills, pay them bitches, no mine. That was my mother.
And it's true. And

Speaker 2 it's sort of,

Speaker 2 you know, the same.

Speaker 2 philosophy as

Speaker 2 what other people think of me is none of my business.

Speaker 1 I'm curious though, when you talk about your mother in the book, as, you know, strong as she was, like there, as a child, it seemed like there wasn't a lot of this like affection and like coming to you with love.

Speaker 1 Like, how do you think you internalized that as a child?

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, first of all, I put her first and I understood what her pain was. So I guess I justified her not being that affectionate or that

Speaker 2 sort of idea of mothering that we all think of. She was not that.

Speaker 2 In adulthood, I understood that, oh, she probably could have been more loving, but at the time, I felt empathy for her because I knew that she was in so much pain.

Speaker 2 I mean, she was always, the whole time of my childhood, she was at war with my father, you know, and it made me feel like a diplomat.

Speaker 2 And it taught me how to read the room and figure out what people needed.

Speaker 2 I knew what I could say around my father and what I could say around my mother, these warring factors, factors, and to not incriminate one or the other, I knew how to

Speaker 2 give them what they wanted

Speaker 2 without telling, giving too much information about my mother to my father and vice versa.

Speaker 1 You talk about this big moment where your mom finds out that your dad was cheating on her in the book. Can you kind of like talk to me about that day? Because it was a pretty intense day.

Speaker 2 Well, he was, he had always

Speaker 2 been,

Speaker 2 you know, out seeing other women. But this one, I guess, this time it just rubbed her the wrong way.
And

Speaker 2 we will circle back around to the whole idea of cheating, too, because,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 x-ray eyes on a situation.

Speaker 2 Is cheating really a thing? I mean, come on. People do things.

Speaker 2 Men want to spread it around. It's just the animal that they are.
Now, if someone promises you that all of this area here is going to be only for them

Speaker 2 they're lying you think oh no not think darling

Speaker 2 not think

Speaker 2 real that it's and I know that for women they're like oh no um he's gonna be mine forever it's like um who the fuck are you fooling that's what everyone's cheating it's not it's not cheating

Speaker 2 if you say you're gonna save all of this area for one person, you are cheating on yourself.

Speaker 2 You are cheating on yourself.

Speaker 1 Should I not get married? I'm I'm engaged.

Speaker 2 You get married, do whatever you want, but why would you, to the person you love the most, why would you put restrictions on them?

Speaker 2 And your best friend in the whole wide world, who you love more than anyone else, why would you say, okay, if you're presented with a situation that is so fabulous and so lovely, I don't want you to do it?

Speaker 1 That is like the, that is such an interesting way to look at it, and I love it.

Speaker 2 You can get mad at me all you want with this philosophy. I didn't come up with it.
It's just my observation and it's it's true.

Speaker 2 And I grew up, you know, I'm around men and men who are listening to this are going, yeah. They're like,

Speaker 2 he's right. Look away.
Look away. No, it's true.
It's true. So yeah, what happened with my mother and father, two people who should have never been together, you know,

Speaker 2 he parked the car in the garage of our house and she poured gasoline all over the car and said, motherfucker,

Speaker 2 I will will light this bitch up.

Speaker 2 And I'm five years old. My sisters, Rosie is four.
Renee and Renette are seven years older than me. We're across the street from the house looking at this scene.
And

Speaker 2 the whole neighborhood is out there watching. And she's like, I will,

Speaker 2 and Irving is, my father is saying,

Speaker 2 Tony, please, please, don't, don't.

Speaker 2 And she's got a pack of matches in her hand saying, I will do it. I'll do it.

Speaker 2 Eventually, Sister Harris from her church comes and talks her out of it, and everything is the fire trucks are there, everything. But when I think back on this scene, I'm not in my body.

Speaker 2 I'm actually like a camera on a dolly or a jib, looking at the whole scene, moving around the scene. like a camera outside of my body.

Speaker 2 And what happens with young people, and we all do this, is we disassociate. And so that the trauma of what's going on doesn't affect us on an emotional level, we separate from our bodies.

Speaker 2 We separate from our bodies. And so I don't remember coming back into my body until I got sober,

Speaker 2 which was when I, right

Speaker 2 before I turned 40. I was outside of my body the whole time because it wasn't safe enough to be in there with those feelings.

Speaker 1 When you look back at that moment, what does it make you feel for your younger self?

Speaker 2 I feel sad for my younger self. I absolutely do.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about your relationship with your father, because

Speaker 1 I know that you wrote that you felt very abandoned by him in moments in your life.

Speaker 1 And I'm wondering if you can kind of just like paint the picture of that dynamic and if there are specific memories that come up.

Speaker 2 At the time, I felt abandoned by him, but through years and years and years. and years of therapy, I realized he had abandoned himself.
It wasn't personal.

Speaker 2 It's like reading the comments on YouTube or whatever about yourself. It has nothing to do with me.
It had everything to do with him. I think I'm talking too fast.
I need to say that all of that.

Speaker 2 Nope. This is good.
One more time.

Speaker 1 So you want or we can go super slow.

Speaker 2 People really need to understand what I just said, which is that it had nothing to do with me. Of course, as a child, I thought he just doesn't like me.
He doesn't. No, he didn't like himself, baby.

Speaker 2 It had nothing to do with you. Now, my ego wanted to make it about me, but no, no.

Speaker 2 He,

Speaker 2 I saw a psychic 30 years ago who said, well, your father, you and your father shared past lives together. So

Speaker 2 when you came into this life together,

Speaker 2 you were like, hey, buddy, it's you. Let's party.
Let's boogie. Hey,

Speaker 2 we're going to rule the school. But he could not see me.
And I spent so much time saying, wait, you need joy. I'll give you some of my joy.

Speaker 2 You need a reminder. Let me remind you of who you are.
Could not see it. And through therapy, I realized, well, he couldn't see it because

Speaker 2 for a person to become present in this moment, and this is true of every human on this planet, to be present in this moment

Speaker 2 would invite you to recognize how much pain you're in right now. So we distract ourselves with whatever we can get our hands on to not experience the depth of pain that we are in.

Speaker 2 But to move forward in this life, you have to walk through that fire. You have to walk through that pain to get to the other side.
There's no other way.

Speaker 1 There isn't. And I think it can take people

Speaker 1 a lifetime. Some people never get to that point.
Some people engage in therapy and then they're like, oh, fuck, I don't want to do this.

Speaker 1 But it's like, you have to open it up to actually see what's in there, to then get through it, to get on the other side. You're right.

Speaker 1 and i think about the this this moment that you write about in the book where you would sit outside your house on the steps and you're waiting for your dad and you're waiting for your dad and i think you're so right where so many people can relate probably that are listening to like yearning for from like their parents for something that they want and you're so right like it had nothing to fucking do with you he wasn't not showing up because he's like god i hate rude i don't want to see his face when i pull up to the house

Speaker 1 but you're sitting there being like he didn't come home because of me and it's like it literally had nothing to do with you. That's right.
But that's hard to understand at such a young age.

Speaker 1 So you just internalize it. Like, damn, my dad fucking hates me.
He's abandoned me. I'm nothing.
Like, what's wrong with me? That's right. How did your relationship with your father inform the

Speaker 1 romantic relationships and men you ended up pursuing and choosing?

Speaker 2 Well, obviously,

Speaker 2 I never got that

Speaker 2 validation from my father. So of course, playing the role of Rue's father today is so-and-so.
And it was be the, it's like, it's like the exact replica,

Speaker 2 charming, charismatic, good-looking, but not available. So I would replay this thing over and over, relationship after relationship, until I ultimately met George, who was someone who chased me.

Speaker 2 Chased me and I didn't know what to do with it. I said, you know, okay, so let me, okay, what's that gonna look like? I'm so used to being the chaser.

Speaker 2 So to

Speaker 2 allow

Speaker 2 someone

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 chase me,

Speaker 2 it changed everything. It changed everything.

Speaker 2 And of course,

Speaker 2 I had to

Speaker 2 get in touch with my ability to love myself.

Speaker 1 Even just to accept it, like even you saying, like, which we're going to get to, like when you met your husband, it must have been such a strange feeling to accept a love that you had never experienced.

Speaker 1 Your mother being distant, your father not showing up for you, to then have someone pursuing you. You're like, what the fuck is going on? Like, this feels good, but what's off?

Speaker 1 And so in a strange way, a lot of the times

Speaker 1 the thing we're used to, that is what we gravitate towards because it's the norm, even if it's fucking toxic. And even if it's unhealthy.
And it's like, what the fuck?

Speaker 2 Preach, bitch.

Speaker 1 Right? Preach. It's fucked.

Speaker 1 You're like, I I love this. And it's like, but you watched your father abuse your mother.
You watched it. So as fucked up as it is, well, you never saw a healthy relationship.

Speaker 1 So how would you know, like, not to be scared when someone is just being loving, being nice, coming to you, pursuing you? You're not begging for attention and affection and love.

Speaker 1 You're like, the fuck is going on? Run. Something must be off.
Did I do, is it disingenuine? Is he lying? Is he using me? What is like,

Speaker 1 you spiral and then you run back to what you're used to. And you're like, how do we end the cycle? Which you eventually did, but let's pause.

Speaker 1 We need to stay in the 20s we need to stay in the 20s then we'll get to the husband

Speaker 2 what but what you're describing is an abused child who's taken away from abusive home leaves there and longs to go back home because that is what they know and oppressed people take on the characteristic of their oppressor.

Speaker 2 And how do you break that cycle?

Speaker 2 You have to hit some type of rock bottom to get to that place. And it is the most difficult thing thing you will ever do in your entire life.

Speaker 1 When you talk about these early relationships that you went through before you found your husband, you say it felt like you would absorb your parents' toxic behaviors and patterns. Fucking relatable.

Speaker 1 I understand you would like go for people that weren't available, but like take me to a moment in a room with someone, like, what were you putting up with?

Speaker 1 And then you would pause and be like, Am I literally replicating what my fucking parents did? Like, how am I here?

Speaker 2 Well, what the biggest offense is not trusting your instinct and your intuition about something.

Speaker 2 This is something they don't tell you about what getting old gives you, is that you learn to trust your intuition about a situation, a person. And, you know, when you are

Speaker 2 somewhat hypnotized by a person,

Speaker 2 like I was

Speaker 2 early...

Speaker 2 20s, all of that intuition, you push it to the side because you think this is exactly what I need. This is what I need.
It looks like

Speaker 2 validation

Speaker 2 and love I was supposed to get from my father or from my mother. But

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 never works. And in fact,

Speaker 2 the only

Speaker 2 validation you ever need, really,

Speaker 2 is from your adult self to your child.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's just, It's so fucking hard to break the cycle. And I want to talk about your 20s.
You became this well-known performer in the club scene.

Speaker 1 And I know you referenced like, I was dissociating most of my life until I got sober. And so let's talk about when you weren't sober, taking the partying too far,

Speaker 1 indulging so heavily in these moments. Can you talk to me about your club life back then?

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, listen, I have no regret. I used for 30 years.
I have no regret. The first 20 were a blast.
I had a great time. It was those last 10 that were pure hell.
It had a blast.

Speaker 2 It had a blast until it didn't work anymore. And it, and you know what? Thank God for the drugs and alcohol because it saved my life.

Speaker 2 It gave me a layaway plan, a deferment plan, until I was strong enough to deal with what was going on. And thankfully, I found.

Speaker 2 I found a 12-step program that really, really, really helped me so much that I am in love with. And so

Speaker 2 I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that. I would not be here if it wasn't for the success I have today.
I wouldn't have that if it weren't for this 12-step program because it

Speaker 2 takes you through a process of walking back to the scene of the crime and forgiving yourself

Speaker 2 and giving you the tools, the processing tools.

Speaker 2 to deal with all of the trauma

Speaker 2 of what life is. You know, we all live with so much trauma.
And, you know, I feel that not just America, I think the whole world

Speaker 2 needs to hit rock bottom before we can pull ourselves up because we, you know, there are two ways to learn. You can learn intellectually or you can learn by hitting your head

Speaker 2 on the corner of the thing. Mama said, Rue, don't touch that stove.
Now, if I were smart, I would have thought, well, mama's been around for a while. She

Speaker 2 probably knows the right thing.

Speaker 2 I'm going to touch the stove. That's who we are.
Of course. We touch the stuff.

Speaker 1 We are bashing our heads against everything. And I agree with you.
I think there's going to have to be a rebuild moment.

Speaker 1 I appreciate the way you just explained, though, like the drugs and the alcohol and what they were for you.

Speaker 1 Because I think people that haven't had hardship in their life are the people that are like, why don't you just leave the abusive relationship? Why don't you just leave? Just stop. And it's like

Speaker 1 the pain that you're describing and the pain that people go through when they do dissociate, there is like a level where like you actually can't re-engage with your reality until you're fucking ready.

Speaker 1 It's like how I always talk with friends who have been through certain things. They're like, Should I get into therapy? I'm like, when you're ready.
Not because I'm saying like, you really need it.

Speaker 1 Of course, you know you need it. But when are you ready to actually accept it instead of everyone shoving you in the door? Go to rehab, go get help.
No, no, when do you know you're ready?

Speaker 1 Everyone has a different threshold.

Speaker 1 Everyone needs to go at a different pace, but the judgment around people that aren't ready, I think we need to have some fucking grace because it is not that fucking linear and simple.

Speaker 2 It's just not. It's not.

Speaker 1 And people are just fucking assholes about it. I'm curious, like, when you look back at that time in your life, as fun as it was, did you have any like self-sabotaging tendencies back then at all?

Speaker 2 Well, the only so I mean,

Speaker 2 obviously,

Speaker 2 drugs and alcohol put you in situations that

Speaker 2 could be highly dangerous.

Speaker 2 And I was in those situations, really mostly, aside from the drugs, that was with people that I was attracted to and trying to relive the situation with my father.

Speaker 2 And I guess really with my mother too, you know, trying to find a situation that would feed my soul. I was looking for soul food.
And I was looking for

Speaker 2 a way to fill that void when ultimately that void had to be filled by me.

Speaker 1 You talk about how you for a while were like quite uncomfortable with the idea of being wanted, being desired. What types of things were you doing to avoid being seen sexually?

Speaker 2 Oh, listen, I didn't have to do anything to not be seen sexually.

Speaker 2 Here's the thing. You know, I've always been an oddball.
I don't fit into anyone's

Speaker 2 description of what sexual, in the sexual hierarchy, right?

Speaker 2 The sexual hierarchy is, oh,

Speaker 2 he's a daddy. Oh, you're a twink.
And there's a whole list of those things. I never fit into any of those things until the first time I got into drag, people,

Speaker 2 men or straight men went, oh, you're that.

Speaker 2 And it scared me. It shocked me because I'd never experienced that kind of

Speaker 2 What's the word where you're being

Speaker 2 objectified?

Speaker 2 Objectification.

Speaker 2 I'd never experienced that before. Interesting.
Because I'd never fit into the sexual hierarchy of voila.

Speaker 2 So when I got into drag, just as a fluke, my band was doing this thing and we got in, let's get into drag, okay.

Speaker 2 I couldn't believe the attention that I got. And I wasn't doing high glam drag.
I was doing, I didn't shave my legs, my hairy chest.

Speaker 2 I smeared lipstick and just, it was like punk rock, you know, drag. But

Speaker 2 I noticed a difference in the energy I was getting.

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Speaker 1 Treat yourself, upgrade your eyewear, and honestly, consider it self-care. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by T-Mobile.

Speaker 1 Here's the thing, Daddy Gang. You know, I love the outdoors.
I love it.

Speaker 2 I love it.

Speaker 1 And I love it until I don't have service. Okay.
I'm like, ooh, this hike is so gorgeous, Matt. My dogs are so hot.
Wait a second. Daddy Gang, I'm here to tell you.
We are going to be fine.

Speaker 1 Now, even if you wander into the middle of nowhere, T-Mobile has us connected because they have T-Satellite. Yes, you heard that right.

Speaker 1 Like, picture a random trail, zero bars, but still texting the group chat. Like, yeah, I survive.
Send wine. Like, everything's good.
Woo. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The new Google Pixel 10 automatically connects to T satellite when you're off the grid and has early access to T-Satellite ready apps like Google Maps, Google Messages, and even Find Hub so you can stay connected in places you didn't think possible.

Speaker 1 Be the girl in your friend group that actually has the service, okay? That is why I love T-Mobile, and that is why I am T-Mobile till the end. I got Matt and I on that plan, and boom, we're thriving.

Speaker 1 You've heard before that you won't. believe what you get with magenta status, but now you won't believe where you are with it either.
Check it out at t-mobile.com/slash magenta status.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about George because it almost made me tear up when you teared up at the very beginning of this interview. You just mentioned his name and you got teary-eyed.

Speaker 1 And I don't know like what comes up for you when you're even just saying he's lovely.

Speaker 2 He's a lovely person. He can be, he's grumpy, he's he's angry, he's all of those things, but he's lovely.
He really is. He's a lovely person.
And I like him more than anybody else.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think that's great too because you obviously love being alone. So someone who loves being alone so much, I'm very similar.
I sit here and I perform all day and I need to get the fuck home.

Speaker 1 Don't fucking talk to me. Don't look at me and my fiancé just knows like let her be alone.
But I do appreciate his company which makes me know, oh, I actually fucking like him.

Speaker 1 I actually like you. What was it about him when you met him that you remember being like, this man is different other than him pursuing you?

Speaker 2 Well, it was the fact that he was kind and that I trusted him. I trusted him with my feelings.

Speaker 2 Because, you know, growing up with in between two warring factors, my parents were so obsessed with their own psychodramas that it wasn't it wasn't a safe place for me to feel

Speaker 2 nurtured. You know, like you mentioned that my father's weekends with the with my sister and I,

Speaker 2 he was meant to pick us up

Speaker 2 that morning and we'd sit on the porch and wait for him all day. And when I mean, when I say all day, I mean sitting on that porch all day he would never show up, waiting for him.

Speaker 2 And we'd say, Rosie and I would say, next car is going to be daddy. Next car is going to be daddy.
We'd do that all day long.

Speaker 2 And so I didn't trust my parents with my feelings. You know, I would, you know, I would sort of mother my mother with, you know, joy and bring her up and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 So when I met George, I could tell from the moment I met him that he was lovely and kind

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 I could trust him with my feelings, that he wouldn't hurt my feelings. He has never hurt my feelings.
Never. And my mother, when I was,

Speaker 2 my mother said to me, Rue, you're too goddamn sensitive. I was five years old at the time.
Five. She said, she also said, Rue, you reminisce too much.
And I was five. I had five years of reminiscing.

Speaker 2 But, you know,

Speaker 2 it was insight into her because years later as an adult, I learned that she was actually trying to warn me to not do what she did.

Speaker 2 And it was very telling about her that she was too sensitive and that she reminisced too much.

Speaker 2 Interesting. So, and that didn't occur to me.
I only got that probably 10 years ago, where I went, oh, right. That's what that was.
So, anyway, George was

Speaker 2 so open and

Speaker 2 not

Speaker 2 secretive. He was just open.
In fact, I tell this story at one point when we first started dating, he asked me, Hey, can I floss your teeth?

Speaker 2 Fuck no, you can't floss my teeth.

Speaker 2 What can I? I never heard of it. Why? Why did he want to floss your teeth? Because he wanted to be that intimate with me.
He was, it was, you know, and I never forgot that because it just, it,

Speaker 2 that someone would want,

Speaker 2 what?

Speaker 1 But now when you look back on and saying that, like, how does that make you feel when you reflect on him saying that to you?

Speaker 2 It makes me feel like he wanted to be, he wanted to not only be inside me, but he wanted to be

Speaker 2 a part of me.

Speaker 2 That level of intimacy I had never experienced before.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it allowed, it was a signal to the child who lives inside of me that

Speaker 2 it's okay.

Speaker 2 You can relax with him. You can relax with him.
He's not going anywhere. In fact, we split up.
When we got sober together, we split up. Still couldn't shake him.
Couldn't,

Speaker 2 we still called three times a day.

Speaker 2 And ultimately we did get back together again and, you know, eventually got married.

Speaker 1 I want to go through that too because it's a very

Speaker 1 breaking up with someone that you then end up with is rare. I feel like it takes a really special bond.
But just going back to what you just said,

Speaker 1 it's so inspiring to see like

Speaker 1 the trauma you went through and the partners you would choose that were replicating just what you watched with your mother and father.

Speaker 1 Then finding George, it's interesting to see like even the way you just spoke, like you got calmer. It got more still.
You could be yourself.

Speaker 1 Like in what ways once you started to engage in a healthy relationship, how long did it take you to actually

Speaker 1 trust and be yourself? Because I'm sure there are people listening to be like, Rue, I fucking hope to God one day get to where you're at.

Speaker 1 Like how long did it actually take once you met him to be like, trust, don't bring up my old shit. Like don't put on him what I've done in other relationships.
Like that's a lot of fucking work.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, and look, don't trust me. I, you know, I, the, the, the beast still came out, you know, in our relationship and my distrust.
But soon enough, you know, he would put me at ease. And,

Speaker 2 you know, it takes time. And, you know, even the time that we were apart,

Speaker 2 we both realized that there's no one I

Speaker 2 like more. And the chances of me meeting someone who I felt that comfortable with and that

Speaker 2 much myself with

Speaker 2 is very rare. very rare you know when we're young we think oh I've got all the choices in the world and when you look back I'm 63 you look back and you go

Speaker 2 there were very few few situations where where people had their had all their shit together not shit together you know bank accounts and all that kind of stuff I'm not talking about that but knew enough about themselves to not

Speaker 2 hurt you and and project their own hurt out at you you know which is I think what

Speaker 2 my parents did. And, you know, and I can forgive them now.
There's a book called

Speaker 2 Toxic Parents that really helped me a lot by Dr. Susan Forward

Speaker 2 that really

Speaker 2 walked me through the steps of

Speaker 2 overcoming the trauma of my parents.

Speaker 1 I think it's also incredible because sometimes like we run away from things that make us feel good, depending on again our trauma of like, this can't be this good.

Speaker 1 And I think with George, it's so clear that, like, although you were both going through things, which I do want to talk about, with addiction, like, you knew at the core how you felt around this human being.

Speaker 1 And that is something that lasts forever. How someone makes you feel, you never shake that.
And you did break up. Can we talk about that just a little bit of like, how did you decide?

Speaker 1 Because it was mainly you, right, that did decide, like, we need to put this on pause?

Speaker 2 Well, it was it was mutual. What happened was

Speaker 2 we had this condo in Florida, in Miami, that George was redoing, and I learned that he had been addicted to crystal meth, which is

Speaker 2 the devil. So

Speaker 2 I put him into rehab and then brought him to a 12-step program. And I went with him to support him in this 12-step program only to realize this was for me.
I need this.

Speaker 2 And I realized too that I had been living my

Speaker 2 fame and fortune through George, vicariously through George. So I realized that if I am living through him and he's in this much trouble, that's how much trouble I'm in.

Speaker 1 You were living your fame through George. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 at five, when I had dissociated and separated, became

Speaker 2 a camera on a jib, I realized I had not come back into my body. So because it was not safe, it didn't feel comfortable for me to feel my feelings

Speaker 2 firsthand. Got it.
I could feel my feelings through him.

Speaker 2 You know, we, you know, we'd be flying to Dusseldorf on Elton John's private jet, and he'd be like, oh my god, this is great.

Speaker 2 So I'd be happy because I informed me,

Speaker 2 this is great, this is great. But I could not feel my feelings firsthand.

Speaker 1 Right, you're like looking for the outside validation of like, what is going on here? Like, oh, this is great, great, this is great. Sure, for sure, George.
What, like, interesting.

Speaker 2 Yes, and it wasn't until I got sober that I was able to bring my feelings and my camera in through my own eyes.

Speaker 1 But when you looked at George and you recognized he was addicted to Crestal Meth, that is also when you said, well, I also have an addiction problem.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'd always used it.
I'd use, I started using when I was 10 years old. I started smoking weed when I was 10 years old.
Listen, Alex, it was a different time.

Speaker 2 Imagine it was San Diego, California.

Speaker 2 It's a different thing. It's not like the way people think of it today.

Speaker 1 Do you remember when you tried your first hard drug?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 I was

Speaker 2 probably

Speaker 2 13,

Speaker 2 and back then there was something called Red Devils,

Speaker 2 and I took a Red Devil pill. I don't know where I got it.
I don't know, but

Speaker 1 what was it? Like what is the effects?

Speaker 2 I don't know if, I don't remember if it was an upper or a downer. I really do not remember.
But I do remember it was around that time. But I wasn't afraid of drugs.

Speaker 2 I never, I never shot up or anything. But, you know.
But also,

Speaker 2 the big thing was that I never had any money. So I was at the mercy of whoever I was around.
Right. You know.

Speaker 2 And then in my 20s,

Speaker 2 this is, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to. In my 20s,

Speaker 2 every,

Speaker 2 I dropped acid every weekend

Speaker 2 throughout my 20s. Every weekend, like four hits of acid every weekend.
Have you ever dropped acid?

Speaker 1 I have never done it. What does it feel like?

Speaker 2 Well, I'll tell you. Okay.

Speaker 2 It's...

Speaker 2 Well, we're going to, listen, you're an adult. We're like, don't do ACH.
Yeah, yeah, whatever. It's fucking incredible.

Speaker 2 It's incredible because

Speaker 2 it was

Speaker 2 the proof I had

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 this world is an illusion. That everything you think you know about solid objects or what people are is.
a lie. And

Speaker 2 I had that suspicion before I dropped acid. So when I dropped acid, it was like, yes, this is exactly.
And the people who freak out, and

Speaker 2 I used to drop it, and some people would freak out, you know what that means. They're like, oh my God,

Speaker 2 those are the people who

Speaker 2 it never occurred to them that this is an illusion. From the day I was born, I thought, this is an illusion.

Speaker 1 So the minute you dropped acid, you were like, damn right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It lifts the veil of the illusion, the fantasy that we're all, we collectively agree to in our lives.

Speaker 1 Did you, like when you got so famous and you're in New York and people know who you are, like, were you at all ever paranoid that people were going to be like, RuPaul is like fucked up or there's something, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 I do. I was downtown famous in my 20s, but I didn't get world famous until I was 32, 32.
And I had stopped doing chemicals.

Speaker 2 I was just smoking weed then. And then in my late 30s, I was doing a little bit of Coke, a little bit too much Coke,

Speaker 2 but really in private with friends. But so I would never be, I would be stoned.
I was always stoned from, you know, I was awake in Baker.

Speaker 1 I'm curious, like,

Speaker 1 you're so famous. And

Speaker 1 how does that make you feel? Like,

Speaker 2 you know, it's,

Speaker 2 you know, it doesn't feel any different from when I was five years old and the kids in the neighborhood said, oh, you're a sissy.

Speaker 2 I was always pointed out. I was always singled out and said, huh,

Speaker 2 you're something different.

Speaker 2 I didn't know what the connotation. I didn't know that was sexual.
It didn't have a sexual. I thought, oh, okay, at five years old.

Speaker 2 So, but my point is that I always felt singled out that there was was something going on with me. And I had to learn to accept that.
So does it feel any different from back then? No, it doesn't.

Speaker 2 It feels like I have

Speaker 2 a purpose that I came here to do, and it's part of it.

Speaker 1 Because I just am curious, because knowing...

Speaker 1 That a lot of performers, I think, are introverts that become extroverts on stage when they're performing.

Speaker 1 Like I know a lot of musicians that are like, oh my God, bitch, when I get on fucking stage, it's a complete alter ego. Like, that's not me.

Speaker 1 I go home and I'm like in my PJs and makeup off and not focused on like that persona.

Speaker 1 But do you ever have moments or have you ever had a moment in your career where you've resented the persona you've built?

Speaker 2 No, no, because I take that shit off.

Speaker 2 It's a

Speaker 2 part of me, but it's not. It's not who I am.

Speaker 2 And thankfully, you know, you know, drag is so brilliant because

Speaker 2 it's like a wink, wink, nudge, nudge at the facade that we were talking about where we're you know that that

Speaker 2 you know being on tripping you know breaks through that drag is an extension of that wink wink nudge nudge and so it's not really to be taken seriously it's paint powder but i never once thought that's who i am right yeah it's supposed to be fun you're supposed to enjoy it absolutely people take shit too fucking seriously they take stuff too seriously read into it too much like it's not that deep it's not that deep

Speaker 2 It's really not. You know?

Speaker 1 I want to circle back just to conclude that conversation about George. Like, the book kind of ends like

Speaker 1 you're not really together. And I thought that was such an interesting, stylistic choice: like, why,

Speaker 1 how did you decide to end it like that?

Speaker 2 Because it was the

Speaker 2 real, the death of my old self.

Speaker 2 And this has been the rebirth of

Speaker 2 my life.

Speaker 2 This is a whole other book, this part. You know, in this business, if you get seven years in this business, you've done great.

Speaker 2 Fabulous. Great.
But

Speaker 2 for me to have the opportunity to have another bite of the apple

Speaker 2 because I got my shit together.

Speaker 2 Amazing. So that's a whole other story.
So, you know,

Speaker 2 ending it at my getting sober

Speaker 2 felt like the natural place.

Speaker 1 And I feel like from what I've read and looked up, like you and George are pretty like notoriously private people together with your relationship.

Speaker 1 Like how did you decide and did you talk to him about that you were going to write about these like pretty intimate details of your lives?

Speaker 2 He doesn't give a shit. It's like, bitch, just go.
Just write. No,

Speaker 2 they were going on this book tour and the people were saying, hey, we've got some seats set aside for George. Do you want?

Speaker 2 He doesn't want to go to that. He doesn't care about that.
Stop. I love it.
He doesn't know who any pop stars are. He doesn't.
He doesn't care. He don't care.
So refreshing, though. He does not care.

Speaker 1 But that must be nice for your life.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Right. To come home to someone that's literally like, I don't care.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, he doesn't give a shit about you.

Speaker 1 You're like, babe, guess what I did today? He's like, I care what you did, but I don't actually care who was in the room. You're like, Beyonce was there.

Speaker 2 He's like, huh?

Speaker 2 No, he might know who Beyonce is. He knows who she is.
He would care. Let's see.

Speaker 2 Who would he care about?

Speaker 2 He loves Aretha Franklin. Of course, she's dead.

Speaker 2 She can't walk in the room, but. Actually, he went with me.

Speaker 2 Thank God he was with me. In 1995, he went with me to Detroit.
I performed at Aretha Franklin's birthday party.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 we were in the room, and her assistant came in with the check for me that she had written for my payment. Oh, my God.
This is before I went on stage. And the check was written out to Ruth Paul.

Speaker 2 Signed Aretha Franklin, Ruth Paul. And of course, I couldn't keep it.

Speaker 2 I wanted to keep it, but thank God George was there with me so he could see it so that it wasn't, I didn't dream this up, it's really real.

Speaker 2 They took the check back and wrote it out to Ruth Paul, but um

Speaker 1 oh my god. But so he met her.
Yes. So he hasn't been stunned since 1995.

Speaker 2 Like, fuck. George hasn't lived since 1995.
He hasn't felt something. I know.
I'm trying to think who he would be starstruck by. He wouldn't be starstruck by any.
He, you know, this sounds weird.

Speaker 2 Like I'm trying to gain him points, but he is more starstruck by animals. And he knows the name of every flower.

Speaker 2 And he knows the name of every animal, like what they are. He knows the breed of every dog.
So he, and, you know, he, children gravitate toward it. He's that person.

Speaker 1 Why do we give a fuck about celebrities anymore? I want to know dogs, animals, the flowers, the insects. Let's go, George.

Speaker 2 Well, don't get me wrong. Azion, he's got his faults.
He's got his faults.

Speaker 1 Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Aura Frames. Okay, so Matt and I recently got this for Matt's grandmother, who is 102 years old.
We are constantly on the go. We're traveling.

Speaker 1 We're doing all these things.

Speaker 1 And we always feel so guilty in the past that we weren't able to show her all of these pictures unless we went over, we got them all organized in our photos and it just became too much.

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Speaker 1 Call Her Daddy is brought to you by T-Mobile.

Speaker 1 Here's the thing, Daddy Gang. You know, I love the outdoors.
I love it.

Speaker 2 I love it.

Speaker 1 And I love it until I don't have service. Okay.
I'm like, ooh, this hike is so gorgeous, Matt. My dogs are so hot.
Wait a second. Daddy Gang, I'm here to tell you, we are gonna be fine.

Speaker 1 Now, even if you wander into the middle of nowhere, T-Mobile has us connected because they have T-Satellite. Yes, you heard that right.

Speaker 1 Like, picture a random trail, zero bars, but still texting the group chat. Like, yeah, I survive.
Send wine. Like, everything's good.
Woo!

Speaker 1 Yeah, the new Google Pixel 10 automatically connects to T satellite when you're off the grid and has early access to T satellite ready apps like Google Maps, Google Messages, and even Find Hub so you can stay connected in places you didn't think possible.

Speaker 1 Be the girl in your friend group that actually has the service, okay? That is why I love T-Mobile, and that is why I am T-Mobile till the end. I got Matt and I on that plan, and boom, we're thriving.

Speaker 1 You've heard before that you won't believe what you get with Magenta Status, but now you won't believe where you are with it either. Check it out at t-mobile.com/slash magentastatus.

Speaker 1 You mentioned drag, and it's just it is so incredible to have a show on its 16th season.

Speaker 1 That's kind of unheard of. Like, there's very few shows in the world that go that long.
Do you remember the beginning days? I do.

Speaker 1 Like, what does it make you think to, like, look at this empire that you've built? Like, you just must be so proud.

Speaker 2 I am very proud. I'm most, most proud of

Speaker 2 the contestants who have come through there who are so lovely and so courageous to allow their stories to be told and to share those stories of courage with people around the world.

Speaker 1 What do you think is the biggest misconception about drag?

Speaker 2 Oh, I don't know. You know, I stop trying to figure out what people think or try to make put any credence on what other people think.
People are

Speaker 2 crazy. People are weird.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I remember you said that in the beginning of this interview and I'm like, that feels like that's the episode title.

Speaker 2 People are weird. Well, you know, when you free yourself from that, when, you know, my mother said, if they ain't paying your bills, pay them bitches, no mind.

Speaker 2 Or, you know, what other people think of me is none of my business. When you free yourself of that, it leaves so much room for your own frequency to

Speaker 2 resonate and transmit through you. Because that kind of thinking of what other people think of you takes up so much space.
It's exhausting. It's exhausting.
We don't have time. There's no time.

Speaker 2 And, you know, when I hit 30, I realized the biggest lesson I got when I turned 30 was I don't have to like everyone and everyone doesn't have to like me.

Speaker 1 Amen.

Speaker 1 Like we're so fucked. Some people are so pressed being like, they don't understand.
They don't like, who fucking cares? Do you know you? Do you understand you?

Speaker 1 Does your family, friends, or whoever the fuck you give a shit about know you? Done. There you go.
You're going to exhaust yourself.

Speaker 1 You're not even going to know who you are by the end if you're trying to appease every fucking person, especially with the internet. You got bitches in fucking Kansas saying you're a fucking loser.

Speaker 2 Who cares? Yeah. Yeah.
And if you had x-ray eyes to see where that bitch in Kansas was, that bitch is in a basement

Speaker 2 with a big internet, but in a basement nonetheless.

Speaker 1 They've got one.

Speaker 2 Their mother's basement.

Speaker 1 Right. Their mother's basement, the mother's Wi-Fi, and they're in keyword warrior, like, you're a fucking loser.
Shut up, bitch in Kansas.

Speaker 2 God,

Speaker 1 we're done with you.

Speaker 2 Fuck.

Speaker 1 You can't take these bitches.

Speaker 1 Okay, you write in your book, book you're born naked and the rest is drag what do you mean by that so you are born naked so

Speaker 2 that concept allows you to create yeah uh whatever life you want you are a co-creator with whatever the source is i mean some people say god some people say whatever whatever you choose to be the source you are a co-creator with that that's a lot of responsibility it is a lot

Speaker 1 but it's also it is exciting if you look at it in the right way. Like we do have,

Speaker 1 for the most part, autonomy over ourselves.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Sort of.
Sort of.

Speaker 1 You don't need to get into the laws going on right now. Fuck yourselves.
But, you know, it is exciting to know you can control yourself.

Speaker 1 And I think sometimes we get a little in the clouds and we start to look around us too much where it's like, why are you trying to be like that person, that person, that person?

Speaker 1 Why are you trying to pee?

Speaker 1 What do you want? And I don't think we ask ourselves that enough because I don't think we're taught it.

Speaker 1 Like you said in the middle of this interview, you were like, my mom told me, like, stop being emotional, Ruin, stop doing this. But it was all, again, projection from your mother.

Speaker 1 It's like, well, maybe the most beautiful part of you is that you're emotional. Sure.
Maybe you should lean into that. What do you want? And I think we can take from this especially, just like...

Speaker 1 Live the way that you want to live and block out as much noise as you possibly can. It's hard, but when you do it, there is some peace and quiet that you can find within yourself.

Speaker 2 It is hard. And of course, all roads roads lead to: are you willing to

Speaker 2 be in this moment with yourself, which is a tall order because the first thing you would recognize if you did that was how much pain you're in.

Speaker 2 So again, you have to walk through that fire, which is painful,

Speaker 2 to get to your true self. Because a lot of us, we sweep the emotions.
In my case, I disassociate it with myself. We sweep a lot of our feelings under the rug.

Speaker 2 I did that with drugs and alcohol. Until I had to pay the bill.
And when you look at the bill, you're like, what?

Speaker 1 Fuck, it's big and long.

Speaker 2 Wait, who ordered the Pellegrino?

Speaker 1 What does the Pellegrino stand for in your life, Rue?

Speaker 1 What does it symbolize?

Speaker 2 You know, and you, so you have to,

Speaker 2 you literally have to go through all of the stuff that you put away before you can move forward. So that's why most people don't accept the challenge of creating the life they were meant to have.

Speaker 2 Most people, you know, go with plan A or plan B. And a lot of times I think because

Speaker 2 plan A or plan B doesn't really fit your needs, you will use drugs and alcohol to numb the pain. That's what we're all, I mean, we're a culture of addicts.
We're all addicted to something.

Speaker 2 But imagine if we were taught how to process those feelings.

Speaker 2 I use drugs and alcohols to process, to deal with feelings I didn't know how to process until eventually I did learn how to process those feelings.

Speaker 2 Imagine a world, a culture of people who could do that.

Speaker 1 When we're able to do that, I think the amount of like peace

Speaker 1 and unity that will come from all different walks of life and all different backgrounds, we're so fucking far from that. But you're so right.

Speaker 1 It's like we're not taught to process, so we're angry and we're miserable and we're anxious and we're insecure and we are lost.

Speaker 1 And I appreciate you coming on today and just talking talking through this because I do, I think it's so inspiring for people listening.

Speaker 1 The way you talk about your memoir being almost like this other part of you that now is put to bed, and there's now a complete new book basically that's being created right now as you're sitting here and the way you're living your life.

Speaker 1 I think we need to start to look at ourselves that way: of like, you can have been many different people in your life, and it doesn't define you, it's part of you.

Speaker 1 But I think every new chapter is on you to decide how it's going to be written. So I hope this was fun.

Speaker 2 It was fun. Did it get better? No, it's actually a lot of fun.
And I love what you're saying there because the truth is, it's about the

Speaker 2 crucifixion and the resurrection. And once you're able to be reborn into your higher self, that's when the party really begins.

Speaker 2 And that's why I feel like this, the party for me, you know, when I got sober, really started, you know, and I needed to put that first part to bet, and that's what the House of Hidden Meanings is about.

Speaker 1 It's incredible. Everyone, please go read it.
And congratulations to you because it is so cool to see. Like, I love that you did a memoir where it stops at 1999, basically.

Speaker 2 So, like 2007.

Speaker 1 And now it's like, what's next?

Speaker 2 Love it.

Speaker 1 RuPaul, thank you so much for coming in, Colorado. It truly was a pleasure.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you.

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