Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle: Intimacy, Cheating & Starting Over

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Speaker 1 What is up, Daddy Gang?

Speaker 2 It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Speaker 1 Abby Wombach and Glennon Doyle, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 2 We made it.

Speaker 1 I'm like thinking about your daughter right now. And we're like, yeah, they made it.
Yeah, they made it. Okay, so she's a fan.

Speaker 3 She is freaking out today. This is the best day.
She thinks we're finally cool. She said, moms, you know that that's where cool people go.
She said, just tell them that you'll be their aunties.

Speaker 3 That's what that is.

Speaker 1 She said, yes. I love it.
Well, I'm happy you're here. I was going to say, like, to anyone watching, we've virtually met because you guys obviously came on my Paris Olympics show virtually.

Speaker 1 So this is the first time we're meeting in person and I'm honored to have you guys here. How are you doing today?

Speaker 2 How are you? I'm great. I'm having a good day.
I didn't have to work other work because this is the work.

Speaker 2 And so that, this is the best kind of work where you don't have to sit in a computer and make calls and get on meetings. So I'm so happy to to be here.
You know,

Speaker 2 being not just a fan of you, but like watching you kind of blossom and grow and you began from the soccer world, it's just, I don't know, you're doing incredible stuff.

Speaker 2 And I just want to acknowledge that

Speaker 2 Unwell, the sponsor of the NWSL, were owners of the, of the Angel City team. So just good job.
You're doing great.

Speaker 1 I really appreciate that. I think like it was almost like a part of my life that I never really got to bring forward when I got into media because it didn't make sense.

Speaker 1 Like, the Call Her Daddy girl, when I was talking about sex and relationships, like, also played soccer and was like a competitive athlete.

Speaker 1 I'm like, those aren't making sense, but I knew at one point I would be able to bring that part of my life forward because the honest truth is, I did that way longer than I did Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 1 Like, since I was so young playing soccer, you know how it goes. And so, it's a part of your identity that feels weird.

Speaker 1 I'm willing to get to, but like, when you retire and when you're away from it, you're like, who am I without this thing? So, it's been incredible to get back into it.

Speaker 1 And I feel, like, I literally called my mom. I was like, I feel like a part of me is back.
Like, I feel like I'm alive again. And it's just, it's amazing.

Speaker 1 And to be sitting with you, I mean, Abby, like, no, your kids think I'm cool. Growing up, are you fucking kidding me? Sorry for my language.
I just wanted to be you.

Speaker 1 And you are so fucking talented in all the things. And so, yes, bow down to you, soccer, fucking God.

Speaker 2 That's sweet. Thank you.

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Speaker 1 Um, you guys, your book, first of all, congratulations. I know obviously you've written numerous books, but like we can do hard things doing it together.
Congratulations.

Speaker 1 What inspired you guys to do this?

Speaker 3 We had a doozy of a year. Within the year, Abby lost her brother, Peter.
I was diagnosed with anorexia, which I've been dealing with eating disorder since I was 10. So this was just the latest round.

Speaker 3 And my sister, who does the podcast with us, was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I think we just, we depend on each other so much, the three of us.

Speaker 3 And you know how when you have a small group, you usually, one of you keeps your shit together when the other two are losing it. Right.

Speaker 3 Like you have somebody who has a clue, but we just all lost it at the same time.

Speaker 3 And to survive, we started sending each other like little clips of things or little quotes.

Speaker 3 And then we started keeping them in files. And they just became like these really helpful anchoring places.
And we sent it to a friend.

Speaker 3 And she wrote back and said, can you make this sort of file for every category of life for me? And we were like, huh.

Speaker 3 Cause it feels like sometimes the harder life gets, the more you forget everything you know. Like it's a really bad system.
Like you should remember then.

Speaker 3 But there's a little bit of dissociation that comes with trauma.

Speaker 1 and i think that's what we figured out one i'm so sorry two beautiful because i feel like the hardest moments in life is really when you have to look inward and like you said you lose your way you're like what am i doing and what is happening but there's a recalibration that happens because you have to go so deep inner strength And then you know who's the closest person to you.

Speaker 1 You're like, oh, wow, I really know I'm in love or I really know this person, my sister, my family, whoever it be that's there for you.

Speaker 1 If they really stand up, you're like, that is such an incredible support system that I've built for myself. And some people then come to realize, like, well, fuck, I don't need this person in my life.

Speaker 1 They weren't there for me in a moment where I really needed them.

Speaker 1 So much of the wisdom you poured into this, I think, is so applicable to my audience. So I kind of want to just like go through it all.
Yes.

Speaker 1 Let's go back to the beginning, though, because I want to get to know you guys better. And through that, we're going to obviously get the wisdom.

Speaker 1 Abby, growing up, you were the youngest of seven kids. Can you describe your personality as a kid when you were younger?

Speaker 2 Great question.

Speaker 2 So being the youngest of a big family, for me, I had seven,

Speaker 2 six older brothers and sisters who all were very sports-centric. My two oldest sisters played all the sports.
My brothers played all the sports. And so I grew up like watching, like observing them.

Speaker 1 I was a pretty athletic kid.

Speaker 2 I was like jumping off the diving board at like two and I scored 27 goals in my first three soccer games.

Speaker 2 And it's because I was competing against like older people my whole life, you know, like I was playing against my brothers, playing against my, my sisters, and they never like just let me win.

Speaker 2 They were just like always like blocking the ball for me and like being their age, not just like bowing down to the little kid.

Speaker 2 And I think that part of like what made me so good

Speaker 2 is this desire, this like insatiable desire to win, to prove myself that I was like one of them.

Speaker 2 And with that also came a lot of probably not healthy behaviors.

Speaker 2 But I do think that there was a part of me that as a kid, I was just like pretty risk-taking. I was fearless.
Like they would call it Abby alert. I would just like run away.
I would like hide.

Speaker 2 I didn't like have a ton of fear that troubled me. So, and then I had athleticism.

Speaker 2 My brothers and sisters even now tell me like you were ripped. Like you had triceps and quads and stuff at two.
And I'm like, is that possible? And they're like, yes.

Speaker 2 So I guess I was just like this rambunctious, this rambunctious kid who,

Speaker 2 and now after much therapy and looking back, was just really vying for the attention of my mom.

Speaker 2 Really like seven people were vying for that attention. Not possible.
I mean, I'm glad they had seven kids because I wouldn't be here otherwise, but it was hard.

Speaker 2 It was hard emotionally for, I think, a more sensitive kid than I think I was allowed to be.

Speaker 2 Would you say that that, I know you don't, you didn't know me then, but you know enough.

Speaker 3 I dissociated after you said, I did not have a lot of fear that troubled me.

Speaker 2 I cannot understand that.

Speaker 1 Someone's like, honey,

Speaker 2 what the hell? What that must must be like.

Speaker 2 I only have fear that troubles me.

Speaker 1 Gwennen, we're getting to you.

Speaker 2 Hold on. Gwenny.
Go back. Go back.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry. Carry on.
I think that's beautiful.

Speaker 1 You're like, oh my God, it's so beautiful. I hate you.
What? Give me some of that.

Speaker 1 No, that's so, because I was thinking, even when you're saying that, two things.

Speaker 1 One, I think whenever we just have these, like, I have these memories of you on the field and these like just iconic historic moments of you pushing through where so many people must just have been like, how the fuck is she still standing and alive on this field and still going and still bringing it.

Speaker 1 And then getting that backstory of you being like, oh, I've literally been doing this since I opened my eyes and could walk and breathe.

Speaker 1 And I'm the youngest and I think about, I only have two above me.

Speaker 1 I'm like, thinking about you being the youngest, that's what I was going to ask you is like, how much of what you were doing was you just trying to get attention from your parents because a huge family and being the youngest, you're kind of just like getting tagged along a lot of the times, and you're never getting the first backpack, you're getting the hand-me-downs, and you're not, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 So, there's a lot of you're just kind of having to go with the flow.

Speaker 1 Do you think that that has impacted your personality as an adult?

Speaker 2 Yes, and um,

Speaker 2 it's it's actually, I've called myself a recovering professional athlete for the last 10 years. Granted, I'm also sober, so as a recovering alcoholic as well,

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 having the experience that I had in my childhood, it gave me, I think, an edge in a way, being a professional athlete. But I think it was, it was like a maladaptive way of living as a normal person.

Speaker 2 And the way that I've been thinking about it recently

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 I thought being extraordinary was the way, was the path to getting the quote unquote mother's love and attention that I think I was seeking.

Speaker 2 And with that approach, I was able to win gold medals and I was able to win world championships for our country.

Speaker 2 But I got to the top of that mountain and there was no there there.

Speaker 2 There was no more, like, I could get no more attention for what I was doing. Literal.

Speaker 2 And maybe you have experience with this: that, oh, I was seeking this extraordinary life, this extraordinary effort, gold, Olympics.

Speaker 2 And honestly, like, I gave myself the anthem to value it,

Speaker 2 that however long it takes for the national anthem to play. And the gold medal was just put around my neck, and I would step off the podium.
And my first thought was, like, I want to do that again.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 there is the repetitive nature of professional sport and the new season and the next thing that wasn't conducive to true peace.

Speaker 2 And I think that when I met Glennon and I got three kids,

Speaker 2 the drive towards the ordinary has allowed me to actually experience extraordinary coming into my life

Speaker 2 because it's being the extraordinary is coming in in a foundation that's built on true ordinary.

Speaker 2 That's incredible. Yeah.
And I think, and I, and I, I assume that you probably have a lot of

Speaker 2 relatability to this, given where you're at in your life and in your career. It's just something to explore.
Like, what am I actually driving toward?

Speaker 2 And, and when I get there, assuming you've gotten there, Alex. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Will I, like, am I asking myself the right questions to live a life that I really want? Like, what's the end game here? And that's something that Glennon was really good at helping me craft.

Speaker 2 Like, what is enough? What are we doing here? And in and of itself, like this book that we've made asks ourselves,

Speaker 2 it's written in 20 different questions and 20 different chapters so that you can start asking yourselves these questions, like, what am I doing? Like, what is the whole point? Why are we here?

Speaker 2 All of it.

Speaker 1 Everything you just said, I relate to. Yes, you're right.
You're like seeing right through me. I'm like, we just met, but I can, I feel it out.
I, I so relate to so many things you're saying.

Speaker 1 And I agree with the athlete thing of like, there's an identity crisis, but it you're also made to feel as though if you are going for something so big and so valued and so many people are going to look at you in this high regard and you just keep doing it and you just keep winning and it's so addictive, like it is, it's an addictive thing.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 That then when you are sitting at home and really what you learn is it's actually kind of more beautiful when you have just people around you and it's longevity and love and care and kindness and all that in the house.

Speaker 1 But you're like, why is it quiet? Why is this boring? What's wrong? Like I'm a loser now. I'm just sitting here and all my athletic ability.

Speaker 1 And then it's like, no, no, no, no. This is actually peace and this is beautiful.
And it's not normal to every waking day, be like, I have to one up with myself. I have to one up myself.

Speaker 1 I have to keep doing it. That can drive you insane and can also drive you to be depressed because then you're like, where I need that high.
Like, where is it? Where is it?

Speaker 1 And then you start to look for it elsewhere. Pausing on us, Glennon, then I'm thinking about you.
Like, how was your family dynamic growing up different than what Abby is describing hers was?

Speaker 3 Oh, I mean, we were a small family. It was just my sister and I and my parents.
How was it different? There was a lot less going on. We were like kind of a little island.

Speaker 3 I was raised by a football coach, though. So I do know more about sports than I let on.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. But my sister and I were just, I mean, sometimes when I go to Abby's house, it's actually quite hard for me because I don't, it's, it's,

Speaker 3 I'll say to Abby, I talk to everyone, but I didn't get to know anyone better at all. And I don't understand.
We're just like saying things to each other, but we're not like learning about each other.

Speaker 2 It's so chaotic.

Speaker 3 So I just feel like I go in and then it's a swirling and then I leave.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Welcome to a big family. You're like, what am I doing? Your head is spinning and you're like, this is normal.
Abby's like, what are you talking about? We got so deep.

Speaker 1 We got to know that this one's dating this one.

Speaker 2 Like, what?

Speaker 1 Like, you all you're like, but we didn't get into like the mental, like emotional. We didn't sit on the couch and talk for an hour and get deep.
Like, I get it. I get it.

Speaker 1 What insecurities, I know you kind of mentioned, obviously, this past year that you recognized that you were diagnosed with anorexia, but back when you were in high school, can you talk to me about the insecurities that you struggled with?

Speaker 3 I don't know. I just remember feeling completely exposed and confused in high school.
Like I didn't know who to sit with or how to be. And I actually ended up,

Speaker 3 I became bulimic when I was 10. By the time I was a senior in high school, I ended up leaving school to actually go spend time in a residential treatment center.

Speaker 3 Now they have excellent eating disorder clinics, but back then it was like you just are in sort of a mental hospital.

Speaker 3 And I really felt like the mental hospital was much saner than high school.

Speaker 3 I did. I felt like bear, you know, I felt like, oh, this is where we're able allowed to tell the truth.

Speaker 3 And we do art and we talk about feelings and we're all, there's rules about how to be kind to each other. Actually, very much like 12-step meetings now.
I love a 12-step meeting.

Speaker 3 I need a 12-step meeting.

Speaker 3 I need like a moment of truth where everyone's telling the truth about how hard and messy life is before I go out into the world and like adult and act like everything's fine.

Speaker 1 I know you were so young, but do you remember the first time you remember feeling like uncomfortable with your body? Yes.

Speaker 3 I, oh, I've my whole life I've spent uncomfortable with my body. I, I, when Abby and I first got married, I would get dressed to go out and I would say, do I look comfortable?

Speaker 3 And she would say,

Speaker 3 I think that's something people have to answer for themselves.

Speaker 3 But really, I think I have spent a lot of time dissociated, like not in my own body. I live in my mind a lot.

Speaker 3 And this last eating disorder recovery has been a lot about living in my body, which sounds so weird, but has been an interesting process for me. I know.

Speaker 2 Sometimes I'll walk into the bedroom and she'll be like in bed and she'll be in like the most uncomfortable position that a body can be in. And I'm like, are you comfortable?

Speaker 3 She's like, I don't know so she walks over and like arranges all the pillows

Speaker 3 she's like oh yeah that feels much better yeah and you're changing your clothes like 15 times just to feel more i do that yourself yeah i do that like 10 times a day it's very interesting i don't know when you're able to look back at like dissociating and obviously the blemia and everything like do you have you recognized the through line of what was going on in your life at that young age yeah so i think the difference between between this round of eating disorder recovery and all the lo so many other ones I've been part of is that I think I kept my recovery in my head, which means that I said, obviously, it's culture, it's misogyny, it's this world we live in.

Speaker 3 And I kept it very intellectual. And I think for the first time, I'm actually doing like family of origin work this time.

Speaker 3 And I think that

Speaker 3 there was just a lot of anxiety and anger in my home that manifested in very controlling, angry energy that for a sensitive kid like me,

Speaker 3 I think my body in my environment wasn't a safe place to be. And so I just decided that my mind was a safer place to live.

Speaker 2 Wow, this is what happens.

Speaker 3 If you can send me this recording, I'm going to get it right to my therapist. I feel like we're nailing it, Alex.
We are.

Speaker 2 We're nailing it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think that's what happened. And so my mind, not here, is my safe place.
That's why I can't tell when I'm not comfortable or I, you know, so

Speaker 3 reminding myself that I am safe now.

Speaker 3 Like, I think half of being a grown-up is just reminding your nervous system that you're in a different environment now and you are safe and you've created a life for yourself where there's safe people around you and you can just relax.

Speaker 3 And that's what, I mean, honestly, that's what my marriage to Abby has been.

Speaker 3 It's been the opposite of everything that I learned when I was little. It's just like absolute peace and safety.

Speaker 1 That's so beautiful, though, because so many people are not even fortunate to say that to be like a lot of times we repeat patterns.

Speaker 1 And there are so many people like, oh my God, I did marry my dad. Fuck.
Like, got to redo this one now. Like, that's, this is not working.

Speaker 1 And you being able to recognize like there was this feeling in your home that was unsafe and it made you not want to be in your body.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of people, like, obviously with eating disorders, I have a lot of people in my life, like a lot of it stems from control. And that was the one thing you could control.

Speaker 1 And so, now that you're able to explore this, I think it's beautiful. And having a partner that's sitting next to you, that's like, I'm going to be there every step of the way for you.

Speaker 1 So you feel safe because going through therapy and uncovering things from childhood is, I don't even have a word for it.

Speaker 1 It's like you're re-watching for some people like a nightmare that you don't want to open up.

Speaker 1 And for you to have someone that's just like there to guide you and even as cute as is, you'd walk in and be like, Are you comfortable? Can I adjust the pillows?

Speaker 1 It's no, it's, it's, you need someone like that. You can't, no one can go through this shit alone.
And that's what's so beautiful about this.

Speaker 1 Did you, though, Abby, when, you know, I'm talking about it with you, Glenn, and like, I'm thinking about being an athlete, and there's such a fixation on our bodies as athletes and at every different stage, whether it's the early days to then obviously when you get like later on.

Speaker 1 Did you struggle when you were younger at all with your body?

Speaker 2 I never had like,

Speaker 2 I ate too much. That was my problem,

Speaker 2 which I know is a form of an eating disorder.

Speaker 2 I have a healthy case of body dysmorphia though, in that I'm sad that my body doesn't look like it used to all the time.

Speaker 2 So I do, you know,

Speaker 2 I have to, I have to very, be very careful on what I eat and work out and walk because I can no longer run because my ankles are all messed up.

Speaker 2 So I've never really, I haven't experienced what Glennon experiences on a daily basis. And I think it's important that

Speaker 2 like what you said around her having

Speaker 2 an environment where she feels safe to explore this stuff.

Speaker 2 And I think one of the things that a lot of us really run into almost all the time when we think about going back to our childhood is that now if we go back to our childhood,

Speaker 2 now I'm deeming my parents awful people, people that are unlovable. And it's just not true.

Speaker 2 Like you can love your parents and appreciate for them trying their best because I do believe that there's a lot of our parents out there, mine included, that they did their best and it was just maybe not enough.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 they are people too. And they had parents that might not have had the education or understanding that we have now.
And so don't let that

Speaker 2 fear of

Speaker 2 blaming or pointing towards a childhood

Speaker 2 prevent you.

Speaker 2 from exploring that part of yourself.

Speaker 1 It's so real because I'm like, oh, I don't have kids yet, but I can imagine you guys feel this way. You're like, oh, I can't wait to find out how we fucked them up.
Like, they're going to come.

Speaker 1 No one's life is perfect. Everyone feels.
And again, it's, I love that you're saying that because there are some parents where it's like, whoa, this is like objectively you fucked these people.

Speaker 1 But then there's also parents where it's like, yeah, you did your best. And I still have things from my childhood that really affected me as a human being that I can say that out loud.

Speaker 1 And it doesn't mean that you are this horrible human being. I, yeah, both things can be true.

Speaker 1 Did you, though, Abby, like in your high school days, like, did you have any insecurities that you were dealing with that you felt like you weren't able to be open about with people?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I was a queer kid.

Speaker 2 I wore backward, backwards hats, flannels. I went to an all-girls Catholic high school and played sports.

Speaker 2 So, but I was straight. I had a boyfriend in high school.

Speaker 2 Really, really scared. I grew up in like a smaller town in Rochester, New York.
And,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 yeah, it was, I was really struggling because I had sat so many days of my life in the church pews.

Speaker 2 And my mom is, she's a very big church person. I was born and raised Catholic.
And I was just like soaking up all of this

Speaker 2 energy towards what I knew that I i couldn't say out loud and i spent a lot of my time in the closet not only for my family but for myself

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 and i think it's it's

Speaker 2 almost laughable now because when i look back at my teenage high school self i was like the most butch lesbian you've ever known oh god i mean if i could i could tell i have no guitar yeah if i could have had this haircut then i would have

Speaker 2 but no no, I had like the long ponytail and, you know, only ward in a ponytail, slick back ponytail all the time.

Speaker 2 And then another thing ended up happening where we have,

Speaker 2 we have queer kids and one of them came out to us.

Speaker 2 And it was like the most special thing that ever happened to me in my whole life because instantly what happened is I got scared. And I had this panic.
this fear inside of me.

Speaker 2 And it made, we talked ad nauseum about this, Glennon and I, like, oh, it made me understand that my mom wasn't afraid of me.

Speaker 2 She was afraid for me because the world, especially in like the late 90s, was not what it is today. Queerness was not cool, especially being a queer lesbian was not cool.

Speaker 2 It was like this underground, mysterious place that you had to like go find.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 now I understand, like, oh, as a parent, we want our kids to have a good life and not, not feel afraid of things. And, and think that,

Speaker 2 and now I've gotten over that fear because like our kids are just happy and they are proving that acceptance is truth and acceptance is the way forward.

Speaker 1 I, the Catholic Church, I agree. There's like,

Speaker 1 there is growing up when you're so young and you're watching something and you're hearing something.

Speaker 1 Like I remember like hearing about sex as I'm sitting in those pews being like, okay, so I'll basically die if I do this before marriage. Got it.

Speaker 2 Like, whoa.

Speaker 1 And then like after I did it, I was like, am I going to die? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm alive.

Speaker 2 Whoa.

Speaker 1 This is great. Yeah.
God.

Speaker 1 Can we talk about, you guys both kind of talked about it earlier, but you both talked about like using alcohol to cope in ways.

Speaker 1 When did you realize, oh, I think I have a different relationship to alcohol than my peers and my friends around me?

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Speaker 1 You both talked about like using alcohol to cope in ways. When did you realize, oh, I think I have a different relationship to alcohol than my peers and my friends around me?

Speaker 3 I always had that thing in me that it was never enough. Never am I, I remember seeing people leave a beer, a half beer or a half glass of wine and like, what is wrong with that? Like, how is that?

Speaker 3 How is that humanly possible? And then I just, you know, they say about you, it's not how much you drink, it's like how you drink.

Speaker 3 Like, I just had a situation where every time I drank, which was all every night, my whole life fell apart.

Speaker 3 Like I would, I remember just sitting in my dorm room, just waiting for someone to call to return my keys, my wallet, my, just every day it was like, it was how I drank.

Speaker 3 Like I noticed that my friends didn't,

Speaker 3 their lives didn't fall apart. They didn't do crazy things.
They didn't lose everything. It was a way of being around alcohol that I knew in the back of my mind, this isn't right.

Speaker 1 Abby, what was the moment for you that you knew you needed to get sober?

Speaker 2 Well, I had many.

Speaker 2 Being a professional athlete, I had a, I had like a kind of a secret personal life that not many people knew about. And this was totally a part of it.

Speaker 2 And I think being an athlete too, I just took on that persona that I just, I, I went hard all the time in every aspect of my life except school.

Speaker 2 I was the athlete. I went to parties.
That's what I did. I went to college.
And then i became a soccer player and started playing on the national team and so then i started to like

Speaker 2 create these time periods where i could do it like my times off so i would never really drink in in in camp but when i'd have the weekend off or a week off i would i would rage for five five of those seven days And throughout a whole career of doing this, 15, 20 years, it starts to take its toll.

Speaker 2 And then I start getting getting more injured, getting older, starting to use prescription meds. Those get kind of out of control.

Speaker 2 I'm leaning towards my retirement from sport. And then I get the DUI.
And that was the

Speaker 2 most

Speaker 2 important thing that ever happened to me.

Speaker 2 I get a DUI.

Speaker 2 My mug shot is on the ESPN ticker for like seven straight days. And it was like the thing that like woke me up.
And I was like, whoa, my my life is way worse because of alcohol.

Speaker 2 And for a lot of my life, it was what I was telling myself, it was way better. I was having all this fun and doing all these fun things and hanging out with all these amazing people.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I have not had a drink since that night I got arrested. And it's one of the things I've been sober for almost for nine years now.
I just hit nine years. And

Speaker 2 everything

Speaker 2 really powerfully good in my life has happened in my sobriety. And I won gold medals as a high functioning alcoholic.

Speaker 2 And a lot of professional athletes struggle with this stuff and they don't do it publicly. And I get that.

Speaker 2 And there's more support for and mental health support for pro athletes now than there was when I was going through.

Speaker 2 But I was just, you know, I was just really kind of suffering, not knowing if I was doing life right.

Speaker 2 Like there was that, like, I didn't know, I thought that that that was like, that was the only way. And, and I didn't literally know a single sober person until I met Glennon.

Speaker 2 Like, I didn't know a single person that was sober in my life until I met her. And now I think,

Speaker 2 wow, I'm so proud that our kids will never, ever see me intoxicated. I'm so proud that I have built a life that feels not boring.
My biggest concern was like, it's going to be so boring.

Speaker 2 What the fuck am I going to do?

Speaker 2 And the truth is, when you have three children, there is a lot to do all the time every day. I think you're.

Speaker 2 And so, and then we're both full-time working people. And so there's a lot that I wouldn't be able to have the life that I have now had it not been for me getting sober.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't, I would have probably missed Glennon.

Speaker 2 This whole thing would never, you know, so it's like, when I look back, it's like my life just got exponentially better

Speaker 2 being sober.

Speaker 1 I think that's also really helpful to hear when you say like, you didn't know anyone that was sober. I think there's a lot of people that

Speaker 1 probably are having the same exact experience as you in terms of struggling with alcohol, but like that fun factor, they genuinely believe life won't be fun.

Speaker 1 And am I going to be like the odd man out where people are going to look at me and I'm the only one that doesn't drink?

Speaker 1 And I feel like, yes, that is fair to think, but once you start living it, like your your testimony being like, wait, you guys, it's literally great. Like, I'm totally fine.
And of course, it's hard.

Speaker 1 It doesn't mean it's not hard when you're going through this, but the social element, I also think people are way more

Speaker 1 loving and

Speaker 1 giving in moments where we think we're going to get judged. Also, depending on who you're hanging out with, there can be assholes that are pressuring you.

Speaker 1 But for the most part, if you're around people that are good people, people just want the best for you. People are going to meet you where you're at if you're around the right people.

Speaker 2 And I'll I'll just say this, like, first of all, you spend so much less money.

Speaker 2 I couldn't believe how much a dinner was without alcohol. It was insane.
I was like, this is great. Big bonus.

Speaker 2 And then I think too, like, just go home a little bit earlier. Like, once your friends start to get, louder and they repeat their first story, that's your Irish goodbye moment.

Speaker 2 Like, bye-bye, get out of there. They'll never remember and they'll be like, where's so-and-so? Oh, whatever.

Speaker 2 And then repeat that story that they had just repeated to you that made you want to walk out. So real.
They won't care. They won't care.

Speaker 1 Do you feel like any of your teammates were kind of catching on? Because I know that there's a big secrecy element, but it only can last for so long.

Speaker 1 Like, how do you think it impacted your relationships?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I definitely know that my teammates were worried about me.

Speaker 2 One of them got the phone call that I got arrested from a friend and or a text, did you hear about Abby? And they thought that I died.

Speaker 2 Oh, I didn't know. Yeah, and they, that was their first thought that Abby got in an accident or something happened.
She's dead.

Speaker 2 And I wasn't far off. Like, I wasn't far off from that happening.
It's actually super, I'm very, I feel very lucky that I'm still here.

Speaker 2 I think that they all, and this is the problem of being a veteran and being the person that I was, is I was kind of a senior captain.

Speaker 2 I think that there was this element of Abby's going to be fine. She'll take care of it.

Speaker 2 And yeah, like it has, it definitely has changed a lot of my relationships and friendships from that time.

Speaker 2 I had to create a whole different life for myself.

Speaker 2 I had to save my life. I had to leave a lot of that behind.

Speaker 2 But it's really awesome that when I get to reconnect with some of my teammates who I'll be friends with for life,

Speaker 2 they get to see this different, more grounded, present,

Speaker 2 not always thinking about, what are we going to, like, how are we going to, what are we going to do? Like, let's go, let's party. Like, I was like that person that they kind of knew.

Speaker 2 And they have to kind of get more acquainted with the new me,

Speaker 2 which is a little bit more quiet, a little bit more subdued. I still like to tell a good story.

Speaker 2 In fact, one of my former teammates, we got together. It was one of our 40th, one of our former teammates' 40th birthday.

Speaker 2 And we were at dinner and she just looked at me and she's like, I like this version of you.

Speaker 2 And it meant so much to me. Like I kind of got emotional at the table because like, that's a fear.
Like when you change your life so dramatically.

Speaker 2 you you change your relationships because of it. If you change yourself so dramatically, your relationships shift.
Of course they do. do and you wonder like will they like me as this person

Speaker 2 and so it was nice to get that affirmation from her and at the end of the day like

Speaker 2 we've built a life as a family together that

Speaker 2 you know if you were to have children one day like your family and your kids become your your source of everything and so yes your friends and their opinions of you like it matters on some level but like also

Speaker 2 like the things that matter the most is like, what am I, what does my wife think? Like, am I doing, am I doing okay? I think I'm, am I doing okay?

Speaker 2 I'm doing great, too.

Speaker 1 In speaking about your wife, can we talk about how the two of you met? Because

Speaker 1 when I was doing my research, I was like, wait, this is like a fucking epic story, you guys. No, this is like

Speaker 1 it's hot and cute, and I am obsessed. Okay, so

Speaker 1 you release a book,

Speaker 1 Miss Glennon. You release a book and this book is about your husband at the time, he had cheated, and you write about finding out he cheated and you're going to stay.
Yes. And you go to a book event.

Speaker 1 Tell me the story. What happens?

Speaker 2 So, yeah, so I am,

Speaker 2 I have just gotten sober. I'm also releasing my first book, my memoir.
And this is

Speaker 2 a librarians convention event. And essentially what happens, and people might not know this, I did not know this.

Speaker 2 Librarians come together in a convention every year. And then authors come up and kind of pitch their books to sell their books to all the libraries of the United States.

Speaker 2 And so that's what this event was. So I walk in and I'm a little bit late, which never happens.
And so I'm like a little bit flustered.

Speaker 2 And I walk into the back room of this convention where the rest of the librarians or the authors were eating dinner.

Speaker 2 And I walk into this room and on the way to the event, I should say, I checked out who the other authors were going to be so I could like know their names.

Speaker 2 And, you know, and I saw Glennon and I knew nothing about Glennon. And I just read her like little blurb and it was like sober,

Speaker 2 you know, mother of three. The book was about the redemption of her marriage through infidelity, et cetera.
And I was like, oh, perfect. Like she's sober.
Maybe she'll know how to do sobriety.

Speaker 2 No pressure. I've never met a sober person, literally.
And so I walk in this room

Speaker 2 and all of a sudden I look up and Glennon is standing. Everybody else is sitting.
She has stand, got to her feet and stretched her arms like this.

Speaker 2 She's all the way across the room. And I'm like, okay, well, that's Glennon, the one I want to meet.
This is great. Like she knows me.
She thinks I'm cool. So we'll get to have a conversation.

Speaker 2 But I like, she's around the table.

Speaker 3 And it was weird. It was weird.

Speaker 2 Everyone was like, why is she standing up?

Speaker 3 It was really weird.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was a bizarre. Well, then I

Speaker 2 and then, yeah.

Speaker 3 I didn't know what to do because now I'm stuck up here.

Speaker 1 So let me, let me just, you're standing here to hug her?

Speaker 3 We're at a long table full of authors, and I stood up like this.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 2 and then she's awkward, and she goes.

Speaker 3 I thought maybe if I bow, people will think I just bow when people walk in rooms. I lost control of my Glennon.

Speaker 1 Glennon, wait, Abby, she's basically standing up like the fucking lion king. And then she's bowing.
What are you thinking? And what are you thinking in this moment? And what are you doing?

Speaker 2 Yeah. It was.
What? It was something.

Speaker 3 I think it was one of the weirdest moments of my life, but I think it was a moment where it was in my body.

Speaker 3 Like I really do. I've thought of this a million different ways because it's so weird.
And there was a lot of writers at the table who still talk about it and try to get me to explain what happened.

Speaker 3 I didn't didn't know Abby. Of course, I did not follow the soccer.
I did not,

Speaker 3 but she walked in the room and I was like, holy shit, like something just took over my body.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I called it at the moment, love at first sight, but I don't think that's what it was. I think it was desire.

Speaker 3 And I think for somebody who lives in their head, I had never, I just had relationships with people who I thought made sense to have relationships with.

Speaker 3 Like, that seems like a good, like, I just never felt it in my body. And so it was the, the best way I can explain it, it was that it was just a moment where my body was like, there she is.

Speaker 3 You better get your ass up. This is an important moment.

Speaker 1 In your body, was it at all romantic way?

Speaker 3 Like, I just never was like a very sexual being because I just felt like I used to think of sex as something you do, like, like how you have to get the oil changed.

Speaker 3 Like you just, you just do it so the car doesn't break down and people don't start to say, why aren't you having sex with me? And like, you just have to do it to like keep things running smoothly.

Speaker 3 I know. So I didn't before that moment even know what it felt like to be like sexually

Speaker 2 alive.

Speaker 3 So I think it was a moment, my first moment of sexual aliveness, although I would not have had a librarian's title.

Speaker 1 I know I'm like, damn, Glennon, you're like, I'm getting turned on at the convention.

Speaker 2 It wasn't anything. All these librarians were like, what the fuck is she doing? I've never kissed a girl.

Speaker 3 I'd never had a relationship with a woman or kissed a girl. I'd never, you didn't know any sober people.
I didn't know any gay people. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Right? Yeah, basically.

Speaker 3 I was a Christian. I was a Sunday school teacher.

Speaker 2 And it was so interesting because this moment happens

Speaker 2 and I have to go over to hug her because she's standing. It makes it so awkward.
And I'm like, bowing. Okay.

Speaker 2 So I hug and then I have to go sit in my seat, which is like, around the table, not next to her. And I'm just like, there's something happening

Speaker 2 that I can't fully explain because I keep looking at her and I'm like, huh, like, that's something is happening here. And then we get seated next to each other on the dais

Speaker 2 on the platform. What is it called? Yeah.
The dais. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the woman who was working for me at the time, I have to sign some autographs after the event.

Speaker 2 She unbeknownst to me because the whole time when Glennon got up to speak, I was like, I can speak in front of a crowd of people, no problem. And I was like fumbling my words.
I was like nervous.

Speaker 2 I was like, oh my gosh, get me out of here. And Glennon gets up and she speaks and she's like so eloquent and perfect.

Speaker 2 And I was just like looking at her like the whole time. And so after the event, I'm like meeting with some booksellers.
And my assistant at the time went up to Glennon.

Speaker 2 and said, I don't know why I'm saying this. And I don't know what is going on, but Abby needs you in her life.

Speaker 3 I was like, got it. I'm in.

Speaker 3 I'm not hard to get.

Speaker 1 You're like, I have been sexually awoken. Put me in.
First of all, did you feel at all like at this point she's married to a man? Are you like

Speaker 1 wondering at all? Like, could this even be? Like, would she even be interested? Or are you not even thinking romantic yet?

Speaker 2 I am curious. Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. and as a uh a lesbian woman who grew up in the 90s 80s and 90s where

Speaker 2 a lot of the people that i have been with in my life were previously straight and then went back to being straight it's just the way it goes for some of us

Speaker 2 i was i was side eyeing her around like what's going on here Something was happening. I felt it.
And so then I went back into my hotel room that night and I read her book.

Speaker 2 And I got to the end of that fucking book. And I was like,

Speaker 2 you fucking stay together?

Speaker 2 That can't be. I was like, heartbroken.
I was like, oh, and I, by the way, I'm the slowest reader in the whole world. I read from like 10 p.m.
till 3 a.m.

Speaker 2 to try to figure out what was going to happen with this.

Speaker 2 And I was like, devastated. I was like, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 And then a few days later, she emails me.

Speaker 1 What does this email say? Give me the gist.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I think, so

Speaker 3 on the dais, Abby had told me

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 her people wanted her to write her memoir as like a Captain America story, like shiny, no problems. Here I'm Abby Wombach.

Speaker 2 I hadn't finished it yet.

Speaker 2 Right. Yep.

Speaker 3 And then she said, but I feel like maybe I want to tell the real truth.

Speaker 2 About the DUI and the drinking and the prescription drugs yeah

Speaker 3 and she was so upset like she she felt like her drinking was like this big dark secret that no one could know but she's from like shiny sports world and i'm a writer and an artist i'm like i

Speaker 3 so what everyone is an alcoholic you know like that's not and i remember i said you're you're leaving that world and you're entering the real world and in the real world we like real people

Speaker 3 so of course you

Speaker 3 you show people who you are.

Speaker 2 And great advice, by the way.

Speaker 3 So the email that I sent, I think I was like pretending that I just would be your like

Speaker 3 spiritual guide. I was just like, you need some help? Like, hey, I'm the one you met from the library.

Speaker 3 Although I do remember that when we reread the first sentence of the email, it said, I don't know much about you.

Speaker 2 I do know a little bit about men's soccer because my husband is a fan but i do feel like i'm over men in general so that was not hiding that was not subtle god right remember how much i i just like scoured all of those emails looking for clues for clues she trying to say here right you say you're over men as you're like married to this man abby's like huh i know interesting so when throughout this email process do you think each of you recognize this is turning romantic good question well it's weird because at the time she was going on her book.

Speaker 2 She was about to go on like this, the whole giant book tour. Oprah just picked it for a book club pick as like the marriage redemption story.

Speaker 3 That's how it was being sold all over the place.

Speaker 2 And I guess we went from email to like started texting. And honestly, like

Speaker 2 instantly when we started texting, then we had like a phone call. And I think this, like, honestly, and this is the God's honest truth, the second we felt like

Speaker 3 that we had communicated that there were real feelings happening she said i gotta talk to craig we this i can't do this well first i went to a therapist my therapist i sat down with my therapist and told her the whole thing i said i i think i'm in love with this woman i i she had been with me through the marriage i said i cannot

Speaker 3 i cannot have sex with

Speaker 3 my husband again. Like I can't, something about my body, like we hadn't even been in the same room together besides that, but I just couldn't do it.
And she said,

Speaker 3 I understand what you're saying about not being able to have sex with him anymore. Have you considered just doing giving blowjobs? Because many women find that to be less intimate.

Speaker 3 My therapist said that to me. And Alex,

Speaker 3 that was the moment I was like, as God is my witness, I will never give a blowjob again.

Speaker 3 I don't know much, but I freaking know that much.

Speaker 3 And so it was something about that woman looking at me and saying, squash this. It's not real.
Just give blowjobs the rest of your life where I was like, oh, no, thank you.

Speaker 3 No, no, no.

Speaker 2 But then right after that,

Speaker 2 you were like, I have to talk to Craig.

Speaker 1 Yes. Okay, yes.
What did you say?

Speaker 3 I just said, I mean, we had been through so much and this man is an amazing father and we married each other because it was the right thing to do, not because we were right for each other.

Speaker 3 And we both knew that. And in retrospect, when I think about

Speaker 3 how we got married, I really railroaded it. Like I was scared.
I was freshly sober. I was pregnant.
And I thought, we got to do this. Like we need to become a family.

Speaker 3 And I ignored every terrified look in his eyes. Like I can, we weren't ready, but he did the best he could.
And I, and there was infidelity and it was messy.

Speaker 3 But I just remember thinking, I don't owe this man the rest of my life, but I do owe him the truth about now.

Speaker 3 So I just said, I am in love with a woman.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 3 there was a lot of silence. And then a week later, we told the kids.
And we had not even tested, we had not been together except for that one night. We blew it all up.

Speaker 2 Just talking.

Speaker 1 Just like you had never even kissed.

Speaker 2 You had never, okay, hold on. She blew up her whole life.

Speaker 1 Did that freak you out a little?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 No. Yeah.
You were like, let's go.

Speaker 2 You were waiting for a girl a straight girl to blow up her whole life and choose you i was and not go back yes i was waiting for it but like here's the thing

Speaker 2 everything

Speaker 2 about this story

Speaker 2 a sane person would be like this is this is not correct you should probably slow down this is you should do this a different way

Speaker 2 and i totally get that but there was everything in my total body and knowing.

Speaker 2 And I think it was true for you, Glennon, too, that it was like, this is where I'm supposed to be. This is the person that I'm supposed to build a life with.

Speaker 1 How did your family react to you being like, I'm with a woman now?

Speaker 3 So I remember texting my sister, who is my person, my, we are inseparable, um, from a dressing room at the mall.

Speaker 3 And I just said, I am in love with Abby Wombach.

Speaker 2 I just kept dropping sentences. Funny text.

Speaker 3 That's so good. It's like hard to, there's no lead-in that's going to make it better.
so just

Speaker 1 and then she's like yeah we all are yeah we all are like join the club i'm just kidding i'm just kidding but like if i got that text i'd be like oh yeah like you're getting into soccer right cool like it's about time like like no finally

Speaker 3 yeah

Speaker 3 and i said i'm in love with abby wombach and i will never be able to be with her and i am brokenhearted

Speaker 3 And she wrote back and it was like, you know, when you're like staring at the dots, like what is coming? And she said, well, you have spent too much of your life brokenhearted.

Speaker 3 And it was just like her immediate way of saying, all right, let's go.

Speaker 3 No, we're not going to land on just brokenhearted. Like, let's, that's hard.
Let's choose the other heart.

Speaker 3 So she was just, there was a lot to work through,

Speaker 3 but she was just immediately like, let's do this.

Speaker 1 Can you share with me once you guys got into this relationship? Everyone brings a little bit of baggage from their past, obviously, and you haven't gotten cheated on.

Speaker 1 How did that impact your guys' relationship with?

Speaker 1 Okay, I hit the mother load. You're like, okay,

Speaker 1 how did it impact your guys' relationship with trust?

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Speaker 1 Here's the thing, Daddy Gang. You know, I love the outdoors.
I love love it. I love it.

Speaker 1 And I love it until I don't have service. Okay.
I'm like, ooh, this hike is so gorgeous, Matt. My dogs are so hot.
Wait a second. Daddy Gang, I'm here to tell you.
We are going to be fine.

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Speaker 1 Everyone brings a little bit of baggage from their past, obviously, and you having gotten cheated on. How did it impact your guys' relationship with trust?

Speaker 3 So I have never been in a relationship that I wasn't cheated on.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 Every single one of them, all of them. And I never know.
I never know until I know.

Speaker 3 So I went into this relationship having part of myself know that it was going to happen again.

Speaker 3 And I, I don't think I would have been able to explain this at the time, but I think I felt like, okay, well, I can't control whether it's going to happen, but I can control whether I'm just totally annihilated by it.

Speaker 3 Like I can control whether I'm surprised by it. I don't, I just won't be surprised by it.
Because that's the part I can't handle.

Speaker 3 So a lot of things happened, but one day Abby was in the shower and she got out too fast, like faster than her normal shower.

Speaker 1 She got out too fast or too fast for you.

Speaker 3 And she opened our door and I was on her phone, in bed, on her phone, looking through her phone.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I really like having the moral high ground. Like I don't, I don't know what to do in that exact sort of situation.
I wanted to die. And we just both stared at each other for a second.

Speaker 3 And then she says,

Speaker 3 she says,

Speaker 3 oh, honey, what else do you need? Do you, do you need my email passwords? Like, what,

Speaker 3 what else do you need to feel safe?

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 I've also been cheated on. And so,

Speaker 2 like,

Speaker 2 It was this moment that I was like, huh.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 This is not about me. I know what I'm doing.
and I'm not doing anything weird. I'm like this, the most boring person in the whole wide world.

Speaker 1 I can confirm that based on my soup, you're like, what the fuck?

Speaker 2 No,

Speaker 1 it's boring. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Come on.

Speaker 2 And I think, like,

Speaker 2 I don't know. I just think that it's really in that moment, it's really, she's trying to soothe something, a fear that's happening.
And I recognize that immediately.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 of course, you have that fear. I can't be mad at you for

Speaker 2 being scared.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I was really scared.

Speaker 2 That's something that has happened in your life. And one of the vows that we have made, especially since we've gotten married, because we did actually make vows, is like, we don't want to use

Speaker 2 each other's weaknesses against each other.

Speaker 3 Like that's a...

Speaker 2 That's something that is a tender spot. And it's a tender spot to me, too.
So like when these things kind of come up, we can't use it against each other.

Speaker 2 Cause like I could have, and I know I've not been like this in my life. This is probably sobriety really helping me be like, what the fuck? Like when you're not sober, you're keeping secrets.

Speaker 2 Like they might not be cheating secrets, but you're keeping secrets. Like that's how you stay alcoholic.
Like it's the secrets that take you down.

Speaker 2 So in my sobriety, I was just like, yeah, like, what do you want? You want my email passwords?

Speaker 3 Luckily, I can never remember passwords. So that wouldn't have helped me.
And And I didn't need all of that. It was just that moment of like

Speaker 3 such kindness and such,

Speaker 3 I think it got just better after that, did it?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I don't know.
Have you been looking at my phone?

Speaker 1 Not since Tuesday.

Speaker 2 But now, but now we have each other's passwords to everything. Like, like.
I can open her computer with my fingerprint, like the whole thing.

Speaker 1 I also love what you guys talked about with the phone and the trust thing because I have had so many people come come on and it hasn't been the reaction that you've given, Abby, which I can imagine there is a level of anger for sure someone has where it's like, you don't trust me.

Speaker 1 Why are you going through my stuff? But to be met

Speaker 1 with such grace and love, that makes now sense why, Glenn, then you're like, oh, and then I never need to do it again.

Speaker 1 Because when they also blow up, it does give you even more pause as the person looking through being like, well, what are you freaking out about? And what is there to hide?

Speaker 1 Not that there's always something to hide, but that moment, I do think is a defining moment for a lot of relationships based off of here, have everything.

Speaker 1 Not that you need to give them everything, but it's a nice gesture to be like, I have not, I go on my Candy Crush account. Like there is literally nothing on my phone that I feel like I need to hide.

Speaker 2 Well, you have to think about it because like there's, there's the defensiveness that shows up, right? And what is underneath the defensiveness? It's like, okay, they don't trust me.

Speaker 2 That, then that's like the next level. And then you have to go deeper than that.
It's like, why don't they trust me? And then it has literally probably nothing to do with you. That's right.

Speaker 2 So it's like, if you can do that equation and process that really quickly, look, I have, I have been the one that's like, what? You don't trust me? And I'm defensive.

Speaker 2 And I, and I'm like standing in the trust part of it. It's like, actually go one step deeper and honesty, like being honest with yourself.

Speaker 2 Because if you have, if you have untrustworthy behavior, that would kind of propel somebody or make them want to look through your stuff in a way to like figure out where you are or like find my whatever.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 of course that

Speaker 2 you will,

Speaker 2 yeah, it's just important to do that process and to realize it's not necessarily a lot of stuff in relationship isn't about you.

Speaker 3 No, I was thinking I can't trust myself to make a good decision. That's what I thought.
right that's all the research and whatever like i cannot trust myself to know if something's going on yeah

Speaker 1 i think i do trust that now i think that is like what what getting back in your body is about too it's like starting to pay attention and not gaslight yourself it's a great point because i think a lot of people listening and specifically women like we're always kind of taught to question ourselves like we're not supposed to be confident and know what we want it's like question yourself and don't be so confident and you talking about being in your body and how your life is changing by starting to be more like cognizant of like where you are and who you are in your relationships Like again, then having a beautiful relationship that you guys are building together, it makes it easier, but it still is going to show up.

Speaker 1 And then it's about how you guys handle those moments that then, if anything, they get you even closer. Like that moment, like you just said, we've never had something like that.

Speaker 1 except for last Tuesday.

Speaker 2 I'm just kidding. You're like Tuesday.

Speaker 1 But those moments make it so much easier to be light and free and in your body when you feel that safe where you're like, oh, I don't even care about your email. Don't give me the password.

Speaker 1 I'm too busy.

Speaker 1 Can we talk about intimacy?

Speaker 1 Because I think a lot of people, when they think about relationships, and kind of like how you described it, Glennon,

Speaker 1 sex for you, you were just like, oh, I thought it was something you did. Oils change, boom, bye, we're done.
And I think a lot of people think about sex and intimacy as like

Speaker 1 the way to equate how good our relationship is is how much we're having sex.

Speaker 1 Like if someone is craving more intimacy in their relationship currently, like what advice do you have for them listening and watching?

Speaker 3 I guess just even

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 is a good start.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that

Speaker 2 something that works for us is to like know what makes each other feel like that intimacy connection is there because we've been together for 10 years-ish.

Speaker 2 Is that right? Almost. Yeah, we're almost like we're in our ninth year.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 And we've gone through ups and downs of not just like the actual act of like sex, but like like we've gone through ups and downs of feeling really connected and so in line and so on the same page.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, stuff happens, people die, diagnoses happen and it, it forces you kind of away from like this homeostasis line in a way.

Speaker 2 And it's not my dream to be living at the high, high, high of the in-loveness, because I don't think that that number one, chemically, is just not sustainable.

Speaker 2 Like you, that happens for the first couple of years and you're just like infatuated with each other and you can't keep your hands off each other.

Speaker 2 But then you fall into a sense of loving, of complete partnership and intimacy. And you're kind of like here.
Like we, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, that was so scary for me.

Speaker 2 Remember? I was terrified because she had never been in love before.

Speaker 2 And I had been in love before. And so I know that when you fall off that love train, you're like, I want to go back there.
And so you find somebody new. And then, so that's what I did my whole life.

Speaker 2 I just wanted the love,

Speaker 2 the love chemicals, the love chemicals.

Speaker 3 Same as, it's like same as the success. Yeah.
Striving for success. Yes.
It's the same. It's the whole conversation.
It's same as booze. Yes.
It's the same as the falling in love part.

Speaker 3 They're all like these fake versions of the thing. Yes.
But they're easier to access because they give you the adrenaline. And then there's like these real versions of the thing, right?

Speaker 3 That are harder. It's like you're sitting around with your friends and you're like, is this boring? Or you're like with your wife on the couch year seven and you're like, is this boring?

Speaker 3 Because the drugs are gone.

Speaker 3 But I mean, I remember you saying, you telling me that it was going to change. Like when we were in the obsessive, just obliteration of early love.
And you saying, this is going to end.

Speaker 3 And I said to you, I feel like you're saying we're not going to love each other as much. And you said, I'm telling you, we're going to have to love each other more because

Speaker 3 the drug of it is gone. And then you land, it's like the falling in love.
And then you land and you're like two people again.

Speaker 2 And you're like, what? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Like, we're just two people. Yeah.
You know? Yeah.

Speaker 3 So I think that's intimacy. The falling in love is not intimacy.
Like that can happen to any fool, right? Full, the full in love.

Speaker 3 That's just something that happens to you, but then you have to happen to each other, which I think that's intimacy. It's like, it's not not a we thing.
It's like, here I am.

Speaker 3 And you're like, here I am.

Speaker 3 And then the more intimate you can be with yourself, I think it's our therapy. It's our work we do individually that makes us able to connect deeply as two people.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's like,

Speaker 2 it's like when you're falling in love, you're trying to enmesh, you're trying to become what you are one. You believe that you are the ones that.

Speaker 3 that have it. Remember, we used to walk around and be like, look at all these normal people.

Speaker 2 And that have it forever, right? It's only you and this other person. It's me and Glennon and nobody else knows what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 We were insufferable.

Speaker 2 But then when you start landing in love, you become two individuals again that hopefully are along the exact same path.

Speaker 2 And, you know, like things happen where the path goes a little bit further away from that center line, but you, our goals in our life, at least mine, is to get as close to that center line as possible so that we're like, you're, you see this?

Speaker 2 This is crazy. This is amazing.
Like, okay, cool, cool. And we're, we're headed in the right direction.
And the work that we do,

Speaker 2 the therapy and the, even our podcast is like a therapeutic thing because we have to like do a lot of research and thinking and feeling and talking about really hard things.

Speaker 2 And it's such an important like.

Speaker 2 avenue for us to not only be intimate with each other, but to explore our own intimacy with ourself and that, that, that deep desire for the two of us that we both have to want to know ourselves more.

Speaker 2 And then we get to have like beginner's mind with each other. We get to be new people every day.
And it's so fun and also exhausting at times, but fun for the most part.

Speaker 1 I can tell you too. It's just

Speaker 1 you are talking so much. Like the way you're like, oh, wait, the remember the other night that we were up late talking, like, I think that it every time you hear people give advice, like communicate.

Speaker 1 It's like, shut up. But it actually, when you start to really dissect what does communicating in a relationship look like, it is literally after the in love portion and you come down and it's reality.

Speaker 1 Are we compatible in what we want in life? And so many people, there's usually one person in the relationship that's kind of vying for the other person's attention, being like, do you like this?

Speaker 1 And then the person's like, no, I don't know. And then like, okay.
And then they kind of mold to that person because the person that cares least in the relationship has all the power. That's right.

Speaker 1 And so you're caught, it's like this uneven thing that when all of a sudden you find that person that feels like you're genuine equal

Speaker 1 and you are compatible, doesn't mean you're not going to disagree on things, but it's just this like one step forward each time and you're in lockstep.

Speaker 1 And there's nothing more beautiful than having a partner like that, but

Speaker 1 it's rare to find. I feel like you can both now, like you've, having been in previous relationships, me too.
It's so rare to find.

Speaker 1 And that's why I want for all the women listening, like if you're not sure, if you don't have that feeling, it's probably that's your answer. It's not there.

Speaker 1 Because, like, what you guys are describing, yes, maybe you're not going to meet someone that stands up and gravitates in the air towards you.

Speaker 1 But that feeling of like, no, that I want to do the hard work with this person, that I feel like if it's missing, if it's not there, you kind of know it's not the right person.

Speaker 1 Cause it, when it's right,

Speaker 1 you fucking know it's so right.

Speaker 4 And I think you know it's right because of how you feel. Like, it's not even when sometimes, you know, that moment of there she is, looking at Abby, like for so long I thought that was about Abby.

Speaker 4 But I think that there she is was internal. Like, I loved who I was in that moment.
Like, she brought something out of me, but I was in my body. I was weird.
I was arms open.

Speaker 4 I'm like, not making sense. I'm that I like who I am with Abby.
I sometimes feel like

Speaker 4 the way that you know if a person's compatible with for you is how you feel about you

Speaker 4 when you're with that person.

Speaker 4 It's not necessarily that person because so much of love, the way we've been taught, especially for women, is like we have to disappear or get small or mirror or become whatever that person wants us to be.

Speaker 4 So we don't even know who we are. So like there's a version of love that doesn't make you disappear, but makes you expand.

Speaker 3 Appear.

Speaker 2 Appear. Yeah.

Speaker 4 In a way, that's what you get, you fall in love with is like

Speaker 4 this version of me that I get to be on the earth because this person allows me to be that space.

Speaker 1 No, and like everyone watching this right now, because I have so many people that write in every day and they're like, Is this the right person?

Speaker 1 That's it. How do you feel when you're with this person? And if you don't feel like your best version of yourself, you probably have the answer.
Okay, wait, I want to play a quick game.

Speaker 2 Yay.

Speaker 1 Because now that you said that you're getting to like 10 years,

Speaker 1 we need to play a little who's more likely to. Okay.

Speaker 1 Who is more likely to start a deep, personal, intimate, emotional conversation at 11 p.m. at night?

Speaker 3 We've never been awake at 11 p.m.

Speaker 2 No, no. Okay, late 7 p.m.

Speaker 1 7 p.m.

Speaker 2 So 8 o'clock p.m. would be very, very

Speaker 1 7 p.m.

Speaker 2 That's a bonus of being sober. You don't sleep early.
Who do you think?

Speaker 3 This is a tough one for us.

Speaker 2 I think it would be me.

Speaker 2 I think it would be me.

Speaker 3 You, I do too.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Because at 6 p.m., she starts to power down

Speaker 1 there. And you're like, honey, one thought I had.
She's like, go to bed. Go to bed.
Okay. Who's more likely to send a steamy text during during a work meeting?

Speaker 2 That's so good.

Speaker 3 I feel sad. I never send you steamy texts.
Yeah, it would be me.

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry.

Speaker 3 It's you.

Speaker 2 I'm going to do it.

Speaker 3 I'm going to do it tomorrow.

Speaker 1 Do it tomorrow. Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 This is so fun. Thank you, Alex.
So good.

Speaker 1 Okay. Who's more likely to get a spontaneous tattoo?

Speaker 2 Her.

Speaker 3 Really? I love a tattoo. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Believe it or not, I don't have a single one.
You don't? No. And it's only because I was terrified as a child and we were told that if you got a a tattoo, you would be kicked out.

Speaker 2 That still lives in me. And I think the day after I would want something different.

Speaker 3 So far. That's what it's for.
It's for regret. Regret is fun.

Speaker 3 Regret is proof you did something wild at some point. Like you were wild and crazy.

Speaker 2 It's like those are your spontaneous texts, honey.

Speaker 1 Okay. Who's more likely to get too competitive at board games? Me.

Speaker 1 I knew that one. Who's more likely to suggest skinny dipping on vacation?

Speaker 2 Ooh, for sure. It would be me.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Who's more likely to to turn a small moment into a metaphor for life?

Speaker 2 I mean, my jam, Alex.

Speaker 3 Only understand metaphors.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. Wait, can you think of one that you've been like saying recently?

Speaker 3 Well, right now I'm thinking this really feels like a bubble of love. And I was going to talk to you about it in the car, but I'm glad we got to bring it up now.

Speaker 1 It does. Wait, tell me.
What do you think?

Speaker 3 It just feels really good in here. Like, you are wonderful.
And this conversation has been great. And I don't know.
It just feels really good.

Speaker 2 It's good vibes. A bubble of love.
Bubble of love.

Speaker 1 I love this bubble of love. Okay, love.
Who's more likely to get on stage at karaoke?

Speaker 2 Well, we have a story around this. My wife is.

Speaker 1 Look at your face, Glenn.

Speaker 2 We do

Speaker 2 Girls Just Want a Weekend. It's a weekend that Brandy Carlisle puts on, a music festival weekend.

Speaker 2 And because we're friends with Brandy,

Speaker 2 she allows Glennon to go on stage and perform a song.

Speaker 3 I performed Share If I Can Turn Back Time, very seriously, Alex, I was not joking. Okay, it was not a joke.

Speaker 3 It was not a joke. I wore a full wig and hat and fishnets and a G string.

Speaker 2 My kids were, our kids were like,

Speaker 3 are you sure, Mom? If I could turn back time.

Speaker 2 Yo, and she doesn't sing. No.
She's not a singer.

Speaker 1 And got in front of 5,000 people and performed the song, made me be a sailor.

Speaker 3 In my body, Alex, in my body.

Speaker 2 You were in your your body yes you were in that g string yes we what were you thinking when she was on stage abby well i went out there as like i was like um a sailor well i was she got me this sailor outfit because it's part of the music video that chair put out but nobody knows that so it just looked like abby was literally like i was it was sailor outfit it was bizarre but i was out there as like her comfort like support person

Speaker 2 because she's got to go do this thing and we go out there and brandy is also on stage singing back back up to make sure that glennon can get through the song.

Speaker 2 Well, instantly, we realize Glennon doesn't need any backup. She's crushing it.
And now I'm just like

Speaker 2 loitering.

Speaker 2 I'm like, what am I doing up here? This is, I look ridiculous. Glennon is like all over the stage and sliding on her knees.
And the crowd is going wild.

Speaker 2 I was like, I was laughing with Brandy in the back part of the stage. And then all of a sudden, Glennon comes and jumps into my arms.
And I grab her. My hands are on her ass, total ass, fishnet ass.

Speaker 2 And she goes, take me off stage.

Speaker 3 I got scared. I got scared like three minutes in.
I went back in my body and was like, oh, this isn't a good idea. And so I just said, get me out of here.

Speaker 2 Get me out of here.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it was the best. I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 That takes confidence. Yeah.
And I can only imagine, Abby, as you're saying that being like. That's my wife.

Speaker 2 It was amazing. And she had a little bit of like a vulnerability hangover that night.
And then we got to the airport the next morning because that was the day we were leaving.

Speaker 2 And all of the concert goers were coming up to her like, you were amazing. That was the most, it was amazing.

Speaker 1 That's the thing. I'm not just saying it.
But you got that feedback because I get what you mean when you're laying there. You're like, wait, was I like being kind of cringe? Like, did it, was it okay?

Speaker 1 Like, did I sound okay? And then everyone's like, babe, you crushed.

Speaker 3 Alex, I was in the fetal position in the bed in the hotel going, did I humiliate? Was that the best moment of my life or the worst moment?

Speaker 2 It was

Speaker 2 fun. Yeah.
It was amazing.

Speaker 1 Okay. Who's more likely to sleep past noon on a a weekend?

Speaker 2 I would sleep longer.

Speaker 1 Who's more likely to start a hobby and forget it two weeks later?

Speaker 2 Me. Okay.

Speaker 1 It's okay. It's okay.

Speaker 3 But you first have to buy all the gear for it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yes.
Oh, I'm a gear person.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm the same way. Like, I will go and buy things and be like, I'm doing this.
And then I'm like, oh.

Speaker 1 And then Matt loves to be like, remember when you said you were going to get into Pilates and I bought you a Pilates machine and you've used it two times? And I'm like, please, this is enough.

Speaker 1 He's like, remember when you tried tennis? And I was like,

Speaker 1 shut up. Okay.
I'm going to get back to it at some point.

Speaker 1 Who's more likely to suggest staying in instead of going out?

Speaker 2 Ooh, both of us.

Speaker 1 Okay. Love that.
Same. Who's more likely to say, I have a new idea for a book/slash podcast slash project?

Speaker 4 That's all we say.

Speaker 2 That's all we talk about. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I've had 12 ideas just during this conversation.

Speaker 2 We can't wait to go download.

Speaker 2 We're doing work.

Speaker 1 We're working today, ladies. We're putting in work.
Okay, who's more likely to give the other unsolicited advice?

Speaker 3 Oh, I recently learned that unsolicited advice is criticism and I should stop. So I go to Al-Anon now.

Speaker 3 I go to Al-Anon five times a week so I can stop giving advice.

Speaker 1 Do you feel the difference?

Speaker 2 Yes. Oh, that's good.

Speaker 3 Yep, for sure. I'll report back to my meeting.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, it's great. You guys, I

Speaker 1 had the best time with you. I like don't want this to end.

Speaker 1 I think something that is like my favorite part of my job is when I get to sit down with people that I obviously like see on social media or I'm a fan of, fan of, and then getting to actually speak to you guys like we are in my living room and we're just talking about things that we clearly talk about in real life it was such a pleasure to get to hang out with you guys because seeing your relationship up close and personal it's so beautiful and inspiring and i hope so many people take from this like the work you both have done from childhood all the things you guys have gone through to get to this point and then to make this beautiful marriage work and it is work but it's fun work and it's good work like i just thank you guys for opening up to me today because I know we got a little deep in moments, but it was really fun and it was a pleasure.

Speaker 1 So, thank you.

Speaker 2 Love, bubble. Love, bubble.

Speaker 2 We love you. Thank you.

Speaker 1 I love you guys. You guys are the best.

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