Penn Badgley: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg

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What is up, Daddy Gang?

It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Pen Badgley, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Hello.

I'm so happy you're here.

So, you said this isn't normally what you would wear.

Is this what anyone would normally wear?

No, that's what.

What would you usually be wearing?

I mean, just my clothes.

Yeah, like jeans?

Sweats?

No, no, no.

I mean, no,

I would wear, I would wear.

So, I mean, the real answer, I have like three pairs of pants that I wear on rotation.

Two of them are in all of the TikToks I've ever ever made or in any of my podcasts.

I mean, it's just there's green pants and there's gray pants.

Okay.

Everyone that follows you is like, what are the green pants?

I know the green pants.

So I think I got them right before the pandemic.

This is true.

And then, you know, fatherhood, pandemic, the fact that my job, I'm never wearing my own clothing when I'm working.

I mean,

and you know what they are?

They're J.

Crew.

Unpaid.

I wouldn't ever.

He's a J.

Crew boy.

I'm not a J.

Crew boy at all, but they're just pants, you know?

Okay, I love that for for you.

Your wife is pregnant.

Yes.

With twins.

Yes.

Are you ready?

Who could be?

Yeah, as ready as we could be.

When you found out that you were having twins,

what was the reaction and emotion?

We got to stretch for this coaster here.

I know.

I'm like, I fucked up.

I dressed it.

No, I fucked up.

I fucked up.

It's okay.

It's okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Reaction.

Well, so my wife is a doula.

So, so birth is a big part of our world.

You know, for me,

38-year-old man, I think I'm probably,

you know, I happen to be, birth is just, it's like, it's in my,

you know what I mean?

So, so actually, when we thought we were just going to have one,

and we were close to being like, no, we're good.

You know, we were, we were close.

Then we decided, no, you know what, let's...

Let's try it.

And

I think we thought maybe one would be,

you know,

we know what it is.

We have two.

We're surrounded by children and people who are having children.

That's just kind of, I think it was like we knew, like, yeah, it's going to be a lot.

But it's, it felt like a known quantity.

And then it was just, it was like, oh, oh, this is how it will be very new.

Here we go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Adding two.

Yeah.

You guys are, you guys are going to do incredible, but you're brave.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's as,

it's great.

I mean, actually, to be honest, like when we see the sonograms right now, seeing them together.

So first of all, as an only child,

you know, it's very touching to see them already so together.

They're so together.

They're just like,

there is one shot of them where they look like they were just hanging out in a hot sub because they both were like up like this.

Or at least in the sonogram.

I don't know which direction was north or south here because, you know, it's its own world.

But they looked like they were having a lot of people.

Like they were just, you you know, they were sitting across from each other.

Just like talking shit.

Just sort of like twitching.

You know, I mean, it's, and they're in a different position every time we see them.

What do you think is your best dad quality currently?

What comes to mind is listening and then and then saying, I'm sorry.

You know, those are two things that I think

fathers are not,

you know, when men are getting a lot of

shit.

And these days, when when are they not?

Am I?

But you know,

men can be good people.

They can be great people.

They can be great dads.

Dads can be great.

We should, we, and unfortunately, there are enough of us who have shown us otherwise, right?

But fathers can be great.

And I think,

but what we do not

attribute to a father much, I think, is saying something like, I'm sorry.

And like, really listening and like, you know what I mean?

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's like almost like baseline.

People are like, oh, no, just like go to your mom if you have a mom because like the dad's not going to listen.

So I think it's like nice that you're acknowledging.

I'm trying to be opposite there.

Just in those, at least, I mean, look, there are other things that I do.

It's not like I can only listen and say, I'm sorry.

That would imply I'm just constantly messing up.

I know, I'm like, damn, you're just constantly saying, I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

Through you and I'm sorry.

That's also what you have to do to your wife.

Whenever I'm having a problem with my husband, he'll be like, what was I even thinking?

I'm so sorry.

I love you.

I've learned better.

I like what was I even thinking.

That's a nice.

Okay, your podcast obviously focuses on people's like middle school experiences.

So, I kind of want to go back a little bit today with you.

Yeah, sure.

Let's go back to yours.

How would you have described yourself as a kid?

That's actually, I've thought about this.

I'm not sure exactly how I saw myself.

I think, well, what I can be sure about is that I was in that particular period of 12, 13, 14, I was a bit horrified by like

very, very, very self-conscious, very, extremely self-conscious.

About what?

I mean, probably mostly the way that I looked and then also the way that I sounded.

So those are the two, you know.

How did you sound?

Well, before my voice changed, like anybody, I had a bit of a high and nasally voice.

And so also, I moved to LA to become an actor when I was 12.

So

I was simultaneously pursuing,

you know, this career.

And I mean, I had no idea what I was getting into, but

I think that made me self-conscious.

So, I mean, everybody, I think a lot of people go through this.

And a lot of times it's just, it just is what it is.

I was, I was pretty chubby.

And then there was a period where I was fat, you know.

And

that happened to have a big impact on my, on the way I felt about myself.

It did.

It really did.

Because did you feel that way when you were alone, or was it a lot of people saying things about you?

Because I feel like when you're at that age, it's always like kids are going to make you realize things that you're like, wait, my parents made me think I was great.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, and for me, you know, the truth is,

like,

I was a pretty constitutionally skinny kid, and it was this period where my parents' marriage was falling apart.

We lived, we were really isolated.

We lived in the middle of

a mountain outside of a town called Issaquah in Washington State.

It might be quite developed now, but in the mid-90s it was not.

And

we had moved very suddenly from the East Coast, very far away.

And my cat died on the third day of moving there, just didn't come home.

So I was like eight, I think.

And

I was just, you know, had no social outlet.

The vibe at home was,

yeah, it was, you know, what happens when divorce divorce is like quite needed.

So,

yeah, I was, I was sad as kids can be.

I think as many kids, you know, are as you're kind of coming into your consciousness.

But also, I feel like, because I talk to my mom about this a lot, because she was an only child and her parents didn't have a great relationship.

So, I feel like it makes you grow up pretty quickly because you are like, it's almost like you're one in three adults, it feels like immediately.

Yeah, that's that's that part, definitely, like, which is not normal.

Yeah, well, or I mean, it's normal for you don't know it's not normal.

Yeah.

So being an only child from your experience growing up, like what, how would you have described your relationship with your parents?

That's an interesting question because I, because

from 12 years old on, my memories

feel a bit void of parents, even though my mom was present.

I mean, I moved with my mom to LA.

Like, in fact, when I visit here now, you know, it's just, it's

surreal when I'm in places that I used to be when I was very young, you know?

So you moved and your parents got divorced around the time that you moved here for acting?

And did your dad stay?

Yeah.

And your mom picked up and left with you.

Yeah.

I mean, a lot of actor kids, this is the case.

Because, like, why is a kid going to truly pick up and leave with one parent?

Like, what's you're not leaving like a flourishing family life behind.

So that tended to be the pattern.

Is there like a

core memory that comes to mind when you think about like a moment from your childhood where you remember being like, oh, my parents don't have the healthiest relationship?

I mean, it is so early.

So early.

I don't even know.

When I was 14, I

saw my

parents dance together.

It was long after they've been divorced.

It was at a function for a show I was on.

It's like a,

and they danced together for one song

and they sort of hugged.

But what it was, it demonstrated a closeness that I didn't realize until years later when I was like, why do I remember this and think about it every now and then?

You know, like, and because it made me uncomfortable.

It made, it, it made me feel a type of way that I couldn't identify.

But that is to say, they demonstrated a closeness that I had like, you know, never seen them have.

You know, there are two people who, they came together like

who, you know, their parents and the parents, like, they're a generation where like they didn't have, they had so little

modeling of like

Not only did they not have modeling, they didn't have

like the consciousness that we have now around, you know, relationship dynamics, like

listening and I'm saying, I'm sorry, you know, like

these things didn't exist.

You know, they just, they like, it's amazing that they stayed together long enough to have me and that they were like, yeah, and also let's keep doing that.

Like, I don't, I'm, I, you know, it, oh, it, they don't have a good answer for it.

They, yeah.

That's really interesting about the dancing thing because I feel like I've talked to people before who are like, I literally, because obviously you either either replicate or try to do the opposite of what you watch your parents do from a young age.

So for you to like watch a form of intimacy at 14 years old and be like, what are this is so strange to watch them dance and like hug and be cordial?

Like when you were younger, did you ever have romantic relationships that you felt comfortable being overly affectionate?

Yeah, well, actually, so this is, um,

I think, at least for boys, I don't, I don't know.

I know that it's not just me.

I mean, I actually was because I was starved for

many kinds of intimacy.

The one kind that I

understood,

didn't understand it, was

sexual and romantic intimacy.

So, I mean, I think as soon as those

I was going to try to think of a word other than juices, but you know, those chemicals were flowing.

That's, that's, That's when I just craved that.

I mean, you know, and again, show me a teenager who doesn't really.

I mean, I think

it's, of course, quite typical.

But I think, particularly for people who grow up in homes where there isn't a lot of intimacy, I think what they crave is that.

You know, you crave what you see in the notebook or whatever.

And we didn't have that then, but the Titanic.

You know, I'm not a romantic movie or romantic comedy person at all.

You'll think you are.

But see, but the Titanic, or no, it's Titanic, isn't it?

It's not the Titanic.

Titanic.

So Titanic.

Like, I loved.

And I didn't see it a bunch of everybody did, but I just thought, like,

good Lord, I wanted that.

You know, you want, you,

love comes in so many forms.

So many forms.

And it's actually tragic for us all that we have conflated it so completely with just sex.

But, you know, from a very young age, that's what I wanted.

I think that also makes sense because

you didn't have anything like that at home, then I think once you taste it and you like feel it, okay, where these analogies are.

The juices.

The juices.

You just go ahead and reach over here for my tea and bring it on the long trip around.

Fuck.

But I think then once you probably felt that, you're like going to crave it because it's like, I can't get any of that at home.

Whereas maybe someone like was like, okay, I've seen it.

I know it's out there again.

Where once you feel like I'm going to go right there.

I want that thing.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

Yeah.

now being a father i'm curious if there were any like behaviors that you witnessed as a kid in your house that you are never want your kids to experience yeah well it would be just the it would be the um

the vibe the the there's the

same client coldness i feels a bit unforgiving to my parents it's it's not because it that sounds like there's um

intent behind it, you know, and awareness, but it just, uh, just, uh, there wasn't a lot of life at home.

There wasn't a lot of life.

But I get what you're saying.

I also think it's like, as you get older, I'm sure you've realized like it's weird when you have resentment of your childhood.

And then as you become a parent, so I've heard, it's like, oh, wow, they were

really doing the best that they could.

And it doesn't mean that you didn't experience what you experienced, but it also puts more in perspective.

Like it wasn't so fucking personal.

Sometimes I can't speak for everyone's experience.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's, of course, plenty of nuance in there, but the basic principle you're pointing to is what I was saying.

Like, that's all it is.

It's like, you're constantly, as a parent, you're constantly being brought in touch with, oh,

yeah,

I didn't have that.

I mean, you know, I've said this elsewhere a few times.

But the first time that I needed, that I felt that I needed to say I'm sorry to my now four and a half year old, I think he was

three, maybe freshly three.

It was a minor moment.

He would not get in a car seat, as any parent knows.

And anybody who hasn't has kids is like, oh, shut up about the fucking car seats.

Yeah.

Is it really?

Yeah.

It's like, yeah, it can be hard.

It's about,

and by the way, it's reasonable.

for them to not want to get in a car seat.

They're strapped in.

They can't.

And if they think it's going to be two hours, like to them, that's a lifetime.

That is a lifetime.

You see how many phases a kid, a three-year-old goes through in two hours, and you want them to sit strapped in the entire time?

I mean, so I'm with three-year-olds on this, but I had to get him in

and I and I started to get impatient, you know, go figure.

And, um,

but the key thing to remember were

for me, like

fatherhood, parenthood, until about two and a half, it was like

in terms of losing my patience, like it didn't happen.

It didn't happen.

I'll lose patience with my wife.

Hi, baby.

Sorry.

But I love you so much.

But with the kid, with it, with a child that small, I mean, they're just like,

what are you going to do?

So I noticed that I was losing my patience in a way that was like, I was speaking to him in a way that I'd never spoken to before, which is kind of short, you know?

Like, a little dickish.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, he, let's not talk about his behavior.

Dick of the century.

Okay.

He was being crazy.

But he's allowed to be.

Yeah.

You got to keep it together.

You're the adult.

Yeah.

So I was starting to, like, I was starting to take it like as though he's not three.

And that's what we all do as parents.

Eventually you lose perspective and you're like treating them like somebody who's much older.

And that's not fair.

That's not fair to them at all.

So I was being really impatient with him, getting him into the car seat.

I don't, at this point, I don't remember what.

I think I definitely wasn't being like,

you know, I wasn't doing that.

That's a bit rough, but I was speaking in a way that was just, you know, not as loving dad as you usually are.

And then I, and then I think I realized that as I was doing it, because it was a new thing.

And

I just said,

I'm sorry.

I'm being really impatient with you, aren't I?

And then he just went, went,

Yeah,

and it immediately broke.

And I, and I said, You're right.

I don't like the way I was speaking to you.

Do you still have to go in the car seat?

Yeah, and I was like, but you still got to get in the fucking car seat.

No, no.

Oh, my God.

No, it was really, it was like he relaxed.

So real, though.

Buckled them in.

And you guys went on your journey.

Yeah.

See?

But when this happened, I realized, like, oh,

you know, in terms of my mom, like,

she probably I don't I don't know I'm not sure but certainly in terms of my father I think I

just just their generation the way they parented all of us I was just like oh that was new you know me apologizing to a three-year-old as his father like I was like that's new but you're like I taught myself that while my dad never taught me that right And that was a beautiful moment.

That was like, you know.

That is beautiful because it means you're like changing

generationally what you're gonna now instill in your kid and then if he ever has kids he hopefully will do that yeah

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You though talking about going at 12 years old to Los Angeles with your mom.

I feel like whenever people think about actors,

you sharing, you know, you're like, I was chubby, I was going through it, my voice, like I was insecure.

Then people would be like, so what the fuck are you talking about?

Then you become an actor.

Like people associated with like actors who like

love the way that they look and like to look at themselves.

It's like a lot of vanity.

Sure, yeah.

But then I feel like in a beautiful way,

What are you talking about, Penn?

No, but you know what I'm saying?

And then I think the beauty of having podcasts like this is like you learn things about most people get into the arts because it's a way to like find themselves.

Totally, yeah.

A lot of times people pour themselves into it because they're running from something else.

Absolutely.

So when you go to LA, were you still quite insecure?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Well, the insecurity hadn't even really found its full expression until I moved here because I was 12.

And,

you know,

I hadn't yet started making money

in a livelihood, a practice, a craft that would come to depend more and more on the way that I looked.

How did you even get into acting?

So, when we moved to that mountain outside of Issaquah, having lost my cat, wasn't enrolled in school because it was the end of the school year.

And so, the long summer was ahead of us.

Again, parents, like, not the tightest.

My mom clearly saw, like, oh, this is,

we need something.

You know, we need like neighbors.

Our closest neighbor was a mile away.

Like, our, our, our, um, driveway was like two dirt tracks up the, it was like a real mountain.

That's why the cat died.

There's cougars and bears and all kinds of, yeah, I mean, you're an only child.

You're sitting in a house.

Your parents are basically mid-divorce.

You got no cat.

Yeah.

You're not feeling too good about yourself.

Yes.

Thank you.

So just to remind you.

Thank you.

No, putting it all the time.

It's awful.

And then we need to find Penn something to do for the summer.

So

auditioned.

I don't know what the competition was like.

No memory of that.

I got the role.

Winthrop a music man is a significant role.

He's a boy with a lisp who's very quiet and shy.

I was very quiet and shy.

But he comes out of his shell when he learns to play something in a band.

So I loved just the camaraderie of, and mixed ages too, you know, it's like kids and adults and everybody in between.

And it was, it was just like,

it's not like going to school at all.

It was, it was really, really exciting.

It was,

and on opening night, just getting that feedback, you know.

the excitement of being on stage, you know, it creates stakes and structure, which everybody, I think, needs a bit of of to thrive like

um

i loved it i loved it i actually said that night like i want to do this for the for the rest of my life you know

that little boy was not aware of all the implications or what it would take or that it was even that it was ever feasible that it was actually delusional and like basically not feasible um

but yeah so i and and people very quickly And why they do this, I don't know, but if you're in any town, it's close to like a major city, like a satellite for L.A., like there's Seattle,

there's Florida, like Tampa.

A lot of kids come from Florida.

There's other places, maybe Chicago.

But if you're in a certain town, people will say, you should try going to L.A.

I mean, it's not good advice.

It's just not good advice.

Why?

Are you going to make it?

You did.

Are you going to, yeah,

I mean, it's, I'm not.

You're like, I'm the 1%, Alex.

But this is the thing, though.

It is, to a degree, a fluke.

It just is.

You think?

I'm not saying there's no talent involved.

I'm just saying those of us who make it are something of the exception that proves the rule because the rate of failure in this town is high.

It's high.

It's high.

It's a bit tragically high for people who want to make art and want to do things, want to perform.

And it's like, you know,

it's, to me, it's not just.

It's not a meritocracy.

You know what I mean?

I don't know what industry would be, but.

When do you think you started making money off of that?

I know when I did.

I was 12.

Oh,

you started working that summer.

Off of acting.

Yeah.

Was there a point in your life where you turned into the breadwinner for your family?

Yeah, very early.

How early?

15.

How did that shift?

I mean, so not the whole family.

And I wasn't, I mean, my mom was fully capable of working, but she needed to be present.

So it was like this dynamic.

I mean, I was financially independent by 15.

I wasn't.

always the breadwinner and but but but then you know by the time but like i've always i've always needed to and wanted to uh provide support for my parents since then.

Yeah, that's really nice.

I feel like you then kind of from what I've researched like you went on to really do a lot of like the awkward nice guy roles like pretty consistent has that stopped I guess it hasn't stopped until you became a murderer, but

he's an awkward nice guy.

Okay, that's actually fair.

There's kind of a through line even though he's a fucking psychopath.

But that through line is like pretty consistent, right?

That's fair to say.

Were you looking for those roles or did they naturally just come to you because it's a little bit of who you are?

Wants to be.

No.

Well, so here's the thing.

That's true starting at 20 years old.

So I had eight years of

near financial independence, professional work.

I was working.

I was tired of television by the time Gossip Girl came around.

I famously said, or I don't know famously, but I've said many times, you know, I initially turned the role down and I didn't, and I didn't just like kind of turn it down.

I mean, I said, I said, so

grateful you thought of me.

I wish you well, but no thanks.

And they went on to try and cast the whole thing and cast Dan and

they evidently could cast everybody, but Dan.

But so,

you know, by the time, the point is not about gossip girl.

The point is that by the time I was 20, I was like,

I was...

Feeling real disillusioned and dried up and tired of being in Hollywood, of acting.

I've been doing it my entire, since I was 12.

When you're 20 years old and you've been doing something professionally since you were 12, that's your life.

That's like your whole life.

And I was, I, I was,

yeah, I, I was.

You were done because you didn't like it anymore?

That also, I just was not, you know, I came real close, really close to like a number of great roles in these great independent films, and I wouldn't get them.

And I was like, okay, great, but you know what?

This is not,

I really wanted to try my hand at music.

That had been my passion since, you know, but

the point is, I was real,

I had an

a tiredness about me at 20 that I think is not typical for a 20-year-old because I've been working for so long.

You know, I feel like every time I've talked to like child actors, that's something that

is lost, I think, in

the way that we look at these young kids.

Like, I always look at like Lindsay Lohan.

I'm like,

it's incredible how long she worked while all of us were like picking our noses and like being in school and like doing fucking nothing, essentially, but like just being a child.

And so to have worked your whole youth and then into adolescence and then all of it, like, I'm sure you're like, I never want to work another day in my life.

I'm so exhausted.

When you were supposed to be having fun, you were working.

But then to turn down gossip girl is like, what now we know what a success it was, but at the time, like, were you also uninterested in the role that you were going to play, or was it just because you were like, I'm so fucking tired, I don't want to do this anymore with all due respect, and I mean, I told the creators this at the outset, so it's not, and it's not no shocker.

Like, I was not interested, and and that's you know, that's just, I think that's fair to say.

That's that's fair to say.

Um,

that's what I have to say about that.

Okay, so obviously, you can ask me more, but I don't know.

No, no, no, no, no, you obviously ended up changing your mind, so like, what changed?

Well,

I was

close to broke.

Although, that was not.

I was looking forward to figuring that out.

I'd had a pretty Spartan year behind me.

You know, I was like, I

was enjoying my way of life.

But the future was real unknown.

And I think,

you know,

it's not like I could go live with my parents for

there's the stakes.

The stakes is high.

Right?

So,

and you know, a few people,

I mean, my manager certainly spoke about it in a way that he thought it was a good idea.

A few key people close to me.

And then it was, it was New York City, getting to live in New York City, where I've now lived since, and which is my home, and I'd always wanted to live there.

You know, you also think about a show like that,

it's hard to grow beyond it.

I'm going to be 40 next year.

Wait, I'm 30.

You lose track at some point.

Yeah, where is 30?

Am I 38?

I'm thinking I'm 38.

So I'm going to be 39 this year.

Next year, I will be 40.

I will still be answering questions about this show I decided to do when I was 20.

You know what I mean?

And whatever, that is what it is.

Like, certainly that's fine.

But

it sets you on a certain track that you have to, in a sense, resist.

You have to learn how to work with it, interface with it.

Otherwise, it just sort of takes you on its ride.

So, you know, you're kind kind of playing,

you're taking a huge risk, I think, in a way, actually.

You know, if

it's going to set you up to do only some things and you're going to have to fight to try and do other things,

you know?

I think that's so understandable for people.

Like, I get, I think people in this industry really get that.

And I think people that are consumers don't see that whatsoever.

They're like, there are going to be people that watch this and then are like, Penn, what the fuck are you talking about?

You were on the biggest show in the world, like, I will forever love you.

Like, oh my gosh, that show I re-watch every year.

But to you, I think a lot of actors understandably have that.

We're like, you don't want to be typecast into this like one thing that people think of you as, right?

Because then you want to, you want to keep growing.

Yeah, you, yeah, you want to have some autonomy.

And you sign, so also signing onto a television show, what you do is you have to sign a six-year contract.

There's no other way to do it.

You don't, you know, you haven't seen any of those scripts.

You're just like, all right.

So, you know, yeah, I mean, it's,

yeah, I mean, I chose to do it

because it felt like it could be an exciting new experience.

And, and I'm, yeah, no, I mean, look, I'm grateful for it.

Now, it took, but it took some time because I, because keep in mind, I started in a place where I was like tired, disillusioned.

I was literally compared to the others, like, oddly, I was like a veteran, you know, and I was just kind of like,

here we go.

This fucking show.

I mean, I'd done like four series before that, you know.

Okay.

Something that I love though is I think what we, and this is, goes past acting is like, there are stages in your life where you have to

have time

to step away from it to have any bit of love and respect for what you did at that time.

There are people that look back at what they did in high school and they're like, actually fucking stab me and kill me before you even bring that up.

Please look away.

But then all of a sudden, you look back and you're like, oh, wow.

Yeah.

With now more perspective and time, I like look back and I can see positives from that.

So let's pay a little bit of, you know, respect to Dan.

Yeah, yeah.

We'll go back to the childhood.

I mean, how long have we got childhood?

No, no, no.

We're going to go back to, we're going to get into trauma.

We're going to get into all of it.

Dan's going to be a brute.

Dan is a little crazy.

You're going to be like, let's talk more about Dan Humphrey.

Rufus, okay.

In what ways did you relate at all to Dan Humphrey?

I mean, it's not that hard.

He's like, he's, isn't he kind of?

He's not quiet, is he?

He kind of was, but he's not.

He's TV quiet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The same way he's TV, like, ugly and poor.

He's the quiet, ugly, poor kid.

Like, okay, guys.

Sure, sure, sure.

Talk to me about the sideburns at the time.

Oh, my goodness.

If I could have seen in real life the side of my head, I guarantee you,

I would have never,

never.

now now no no no no no no so not just not just like give Dan his flowers let's give let's give young pen his a little bit of something here too you know

you know in the early 2000s it was like it was like boot cut jeans with the low rise waist

um

there's a there's a look to a sideburn that I always wanted like the second I could grow facial hair which happened to be early you know it was like I wanted them and um

it was just an aesthetic thing that's like you i only see my face from here you know i only see just this little bit of

you know this little bit of little bit of contouring it's like gives me some age right have a baby face always wanted to look older now those sideburns

did why didn't anybody say they were so large and thick and yeah and the width well and by the way i didn't like i didn't i didn't like do that that's the way they are Yeah, yeah, but they were kind of like

pronounced because you didn't have a beard.

Right, but because I had to shave every day on that show, you know, it's like I was never allowed for gradation or

a little bit of growth.

So it's like, look, this is me starting to shave here.

To the point, though, that someone could assume that they were a prop.

Like, you stuck those bad boys on every day.

No, they were so pronounced.

I mean, who allowed that?

So many people allowed that.

It looked amazing.

I definitely focused on it quite often.

And like the first season, that shit was popping.

Oh, my God.

Okay.

So we relate a little bit to him.

How are you different than Dan?

I mean, in every way.

Yeah.

Fuck him.

We love Dan.

Do you?

He went through his phases where I would be like, lonely boy.

Like, I do love you now.

And then I'd be like, Dan, shut the fuck up.

Like,

when he dated Georgina, I was like, you're so done in my eyes.

I hate you.

Can I ask why?

I'm like, it's Georgina.

And meanwhile, you're like, Serena, like, I love her.

She's great.

And I wanted to just,

but then you came back around.

To be honest,

I can barely remember those storylines.

Like, there's a lot of them.

I'll walk you through them.

Don't worry.

We've got a lot here.

There's a lot of them.

Who's worse, Dan or Joe?

Well, that's not, I mean, it's Joe.

I'm sorry.

Was Dan masturbating in the street and strangling women?

I'm sorry to say it so like pronounced but i mean why do why am i everybody was like he needs to chill i'm like no bro bro you watched it it's what he does why why when i say it is it worse than watching it happen

the worst joe did or what's his face dan the worst dan did was

what's his name shut the up

the worst dan did was i mean he did like we know what he did what he did was sociopathic just in terms of being gossip girl.

Sorry, yeah, no, actually, sociopathic.

Can we talk about that?

Yeah, where were you?

What were you wearing?

Where were you sitting?

Or were you standing?

What was the energy in the room when you found out you were gossip girl?

I was in the hair and makeup trailer room.

Don't remember what I was wearing.

JFK was not assassinated on that day.

It was just me being gossip girl.

But I remember just being like,

huh?

Huh.

Okay.

Like,

if I'm trying to, I'm trying to math it, it's tough,

all right,

and we've got a shoot tomorrow.

Cool, okay, you know, I mean, I found out real late, real late.

You have to tell me

who you think should have been gossip girl.

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you have to tell me

who you think should have been gossip girl it wouldn't have made sense for anybody we all wanted it to be doroda without a doubt yeah doroda would have slapped they needed it to be a series regular sorry what about rufus

series regular that literally needed it they needed to be one of the core six otherwise nobody cares oh my god you get to call yourself one of the core six i am i'm sorry.

That's like a badge of honor.

I'm not just the Core Six.

I'm Gossip Girl, baby.

I did it right it.

It's on the wall like that.

You are daddy.

I am Gossip Girl.

These are facts.

Okay?

Facts.

That's just like the promo, right?

Soundbite.

Yeah, I just gave you.

I just gave you everything you wanted.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Okay, wait.

When I interviewed Nate Archibald, aka Chase Crawford, he told me that he and Ed Westwick would like throw these rooftop parties at their apartment.

Did you ever get invited and did you ever go?

Did I get invited?

Of course,

it wasn't like they were sending out invites.

Yeah, I mean, but I didn't go much.

I was not a partier.

Okay, what were you doing during your like rise to fame in New York City?

Sitting at home.

Yeah.

Good question.

I

just had a different friend circle.

Okay.

I did.

What were you doing?

Like, would you go out?

Good question.

I mean, didn't go out as much.

Where did you live?

Gramercy.

You weren't going to One Oak?

I did go to One Oak

way after everybody.

I'd heard about One Oak a lot.

I remember the first time.

Okay,

I remember the first time that I had to pay for a bottle.

And this was years later, years, years, years later.

I took somebody out.

They really wanted to go out.

They're from Thailand, right?

They wanted to party like they saw.

And I was like, okay, we'll go.

I go to some place I don't even remember the name of that I've been to many times.

I bought a bottle and I was like, I'm sorry, come again.

What?

Wait.

Whoa.

You know that meme of the guy being like

in the math?

I was just like, so not only have I been getting free bottles my whole 20s, completely unaware,

again, we're talking about upholding the artifice.

This is, this is, I was just like, People pay for this this much?

And you could go to the grocery store and get a bottle of grain goose for like...

It's criminal.

I was like, yeah, I feel good about not having done this a bunch.

I mean, stunned me.

It stunned me.

I was like, people have to save up to waste it this quickly.

I mean, good lord.

Wait, but did you have people like, as you had from Thailand, did you have people thinking because of your life in New York City, being this it guy, you had this access and this lifestyle that you like weren't living in Gram Mercy?

Yeah, certainly for Gossip Girl.

Certainly because of

the early 2000s celebrity

city thing.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, well, look, you know, and Crime River, it's not a big deal.

I'm, what I say is as a witness to it, not as a complaint.

But I think one of the aspects of celebrity that you deal with constantly is just like, everybody just thinks you're somebody you're not.

And, you know, again,

it so that's so i think that's just always so how long did you do gossip girl um

six years for six years you're living in new york city you're in your early 20s and i feel like a lot of the character that you were being

you were kind of had parallels right you were like living in new york city sure you were also living in new york city at the time for the show.

You were dating Blake Lively.

You were dating Serena on the show.

Did you feel like you were able to separate your actual job from your reality and actually able to grow in your 20s, or did it all feel like it was kind of merged?

I mean, that's a great question because it was the struggle.

You know,

the difference between

there are many differences between film and television.

One of them

is that when you do a film, you do it once,

you know, and you kind of give it your all.

And then you move on, whether you want to or not, you know,

you do.

When you do a television show, you are.

You're doing it constantly.

Because of the nature of that show and because of celebrity culture at that time, especially, it was like, you know, I remember like, you know, suddenly the influx of interviews being asked about.

Like, I remember doing something for you know, Cosmo Girl or something.

That's a thing, right?

It's like Cosmo Paris.

Is it oh, girl, like, it's like the younger version, yeah, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like Teen Vogue had just come out, you know what I mean?

Like, I remember doing interviews for those kinds of publications and being asked about like, you know, dating advice, or like, by the way, like, I think I've been on one date in my life, like, spent most of my time just sort of either in a relationship or not.

Um,

and I remember just

the feeling of

not

knowing.

But it is this, it's this thing, you feel like you're constantly,

even though no one may be actually asking you to do this, you feel like you're constantly needing to prove

yourself in some manner.

Otherwise, what are you doing?

I mean,

you know, what is the space?

This kind of thing has evolved over the course of however long, you know, but we didn't have podcasts like this back then where you could explore things at length and depth.

You know, they were looking for a quick soundbite and it was just like, it was just like, uh-huh.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

Okay.

All right.

Uh-huh.

It's like,

you know, you don't, interfacing in that space.

can actually feel really crazy and you, you, you, you suddenly feel the need to perform and you're just like, why can't I just

say something fucking normal?

You know, like, why can't I?

And so what starts to happen when you're in this one role for a long time,

the aspect of celebrity being a part of it, a huge part of it,

there is not enough separation, I think, for anybody.

You're seen as this person.

You're called their name out on the street.

You also constantly have to be that person at work.

And I was 20, I was 21, 22.

So like, I didn't have the emotional maturity to understand, to how to differentiate myself just in terms of self-worth.

Like what people seemed to think of Dan seemed to be what people thought of me.

And now I had enough sense, enough intelligence, enough self-worth, enough, just, you know, like I wasn't like losing myself, but it bothered me.

Well, and I feel like that makes a lot of sense too, because even as you're saying that, I'm thinking about like very specific

people could look back at their time in

like Hannah, Montana, for example.

That is the biggest mindfuck for Miley, where it's like you're playing yourself, but you're secretly a pop star, and then you actually become a pop star.

Like, you guys were playing these characters that were actually physically living in New York City, and it wasn't like you guys were like superheroes, it was like an actual thing that people could believe.

You're like, excuse me, Dan, again, gossip girl bitch.

But, like, you know what I'm saying?

It's like, people, it's easier to believe the Friday Night Lights characters and the Wentry Hill characters.

Like, those were just normal characters that people could believe you are, as opposed to this, like you're playing a doctor.

I guess even still, Alan Pompeo was like, People went into fucking surgery because of me, but like people merge it too much.

And so when you're walking and you're like, Am I more like this or am I this character?

It can get fucking confusing.

Definitely.

How did you approach your dating life in your 20s?

Okay, so going back to what we said earlier about

that need for intimacy and and really wanting a love that transcends the body, truly.

I mean, that's what we all want.

But

never had an approach.

I've had

a handful of long relationships,

and that's about the extent of it.

You know, I really did not date.

Tried, found it

not,

what's the word?

I don't even know.

I mean, fulfilling, satisfying.

I don't know.

It's just, I was not good at what felt like dating is.

Dating is a bit of a performance, I think, right?

Isn't it?

Like, I mean, it's just, it's initially, like, that's, and I think that just, like, really stressed me out.

Um,

I never had an approach.

So, trying to, like, I, I really

longed for that kind of connection, that kind of intimacy.

Uh,

I think just as anybody else,

you know, kind of something that my show you has been about, which is like the, the, the really really toxic misconceptions we have,

like modern love mythology, the way that a relationship should be, the way that you should feel

like it does to watch Titanic.

You know what I mean?

Like that, like, so I, so I wanted that.

And so

it's, so

I also had a very long and difficult relationship in my teen years.

Um

that marked me.

And I actually remember thinking when I got out of it at 19, I was just like,

that was a way to start it all.

Oof.

I wonder what effects it's going to have on me.

You know, I wonder.

So I,

but then I found myself in my 20s, three different long-term relationships.

The third one was with my wife.

And it's, you know.

Can we talk a little bit about modern dating culture?

Because I know, like you're kind of saying, you have obviously very strong opinions.

I don't know anything.

The truth is, I don't know anything about what it's like, actually,

but I can only speak as a person who hears about it.

Okay.

Casual dating.

Yeah.

What do you feel about that for people?

Here's a platform upon which to skewer yourself.

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Casual dating.

What do you feel about that for people?

Is it ever casual?

show me somebody who really

really

truly

is casual about it

I'll wait

I'll wait

not that they act casual about it that they feel casual about it I'll wait please I would like to see it in the comments I think that some women would ask back to you pen

i wish he didn't feel like it was casual.

I'm telling you that he doesn't understand the ways in which it is not casual for him either.

Because he may just actually be like, oh, I don't like you.

What about that?

That whole thing.

Yeah, that's sorry.

So I, you know,

I am sorry to women on that one.

I can't apologize for men, but I'm just saying, like, that is, that is

the whole like,

what is that too?

Like, he's just not that into you, that whole thing.

That, like, what

Okay, so

if I venture something here,

one of the reasons I didn't like dating was because of what it seemed like,

you know, young men, boys, men need to sort of how they need to behave and act, which always felt real corrosive and toxic and coarse and just

calloused.

At a very young age, if I'm representative of anything that can be generalized, it seemed

that it was important and necessary for me as a man to, like, you know, it's such a dumb old term that so many young people will be like, what did you just say?

But, like, sow your wild oats, you know, that kind of thing.

I don't know what, what would, what, what would you say now?

What would you say?

I sound like an 80-year-old.

What would you say?

Wait,

say that again?

So,

I'm not going to say it again.

You're like, okay, say it one more time for me, please.

And make eye contact with the camera?

Wait, I actually don't know if you said.

Sow your oats.

Your wild oats.

That sounds so dumb.

Sow your wild oats.

When I have to say it's not a woman.

No, no, break it down.

Sow your wild oats.

Like, to have sex with a lot of women.

That's probably how they would say it.

Sure.

To have sex with a lot of women.

With a lot of women.

Yeah.

Like, they're fucking around.

Yes.

Not the oats.

It's more just they fuck around.

Well, we think of it like this.

You're a gardener, and you've got a handful of seed and you're just

casting it out into the wilderness.

Yes.

Okay.

Now, see, this makes more sense.

Maybe someone will start saying that in Gen Z and you're going to trend it back upwards.

Okay.

I might have that power.

Maybe.

Maybe.

Okay, so how do you feel about casual sex?

Not now, obviously.

I know.

Again, again, show me anyone who's able to have it.

Truly.

And I'm saying, I'm not just saying who does it.

Yeah.

Plenty of people do it.

Show me someone who's actually, what about it is casual?

What about it as casual?

Again, I'll wait.

I think it's a great question to pose to the girls listening.

Yeah.

People obviously

always say relationships are hard.

They're hard work.

They're a lot of work.

But what does that tangibly look like to you to work on a relationship?

I feel like you have to always be learning

new

levels of

listening

because

when you get past the you know it's anywhere from the six month to two year mark when the the juices so to speak the chemicals have like sort of run their course you may have had something that could be like wildly intoxicating in some cases that's true in some cases it may be

less or somewhere in between but

you know studies show

about

six to 24 months, that runs its course.

Then you have to

enter into a different kind of relationship.

One that we don't see a lot.

You know, we don't see it modeled a lot, hardly ever.

You know, for reasons that have to do more with like what it takes to tell a good story than reality, you know, in movies and TV and books and stuff.

So then you have to think to yourself, like, well, what is a relationship for?

Not just like, what am I in this for?

What is a relationship for?

That's also a question, I pose.

What is a relationship for?

Not just what is it doing for you?

What are relationships for?

And at some point, I think you just have to realize that

you're developing your own narratives and biases that have to be kind of constantly reshaped,

you have to check in with them.

And so it just means it's just another level of listening.

And then once you get into parenting,

it just adds a level of complexity that's really beautiful and rewarding.

So,

you know, when you're, when you're parenting, actually, sometimes it can be really practical stuff.

Like we have to schedule time for any kind of intimacy we want to have.

Like if we want to go out, that needs to be in that calendar.

And you have to find child care.

It's all this stuff.

It's like it's, it's very real.

And that can actually be a surprising amount of work.

Like, cause I was going to ask, I know, obviously, your wife has a child from a previous relationship.

And when you

were starting to date, that takes another level of commitment and stability.

And like, how did you know that was something you were ready for?

Well, I didn't.

And I mean, I think, so, like, the when we first met, it was kind of

immediate.

And

before we had time to think,

I think we just, we wanted to be together in the deepest way.

And I wanted to be there for her son

in whatever way was best.

His father's always been in his life.

But then the cultural dating laws, which I never abided by, never understood, but you were pressuring me.

I was like, I need to sow my wild oats.

What am I doing with this woman with a child?

But, you know, I was 28, I think, maybe 27, and I really did

think,

is it right for me, you know, to be, to be getting into a relationship with a woman who has a child?

Like,

so the stakes were always significant there.

We both felt that.

And so we both actually, after an immediate, intense connection and, like, not thinking about it, we then sort of like,

you know, we need to think about this more.

And what

I only felt that I was ready once I felt confident to like leave all that, that, all these notions about what it is to be a man, what it is to date, what I needed to do, who I needed to be sexually, once I was able to start really leaving that behind.

That's beautiful.

I also love like just like hearing the way that you talk about your relationship.

It's so nice to hear, again, almost back to the way that you're parenting about like listening and apologizing and doing things that are like not typically what you would think like a man is leading with.

I think it's really refreshing to hear because I know even you've talked about with your wife that you guys like early on in your relationship took breaks.

And I think like so much of what you've shared is quite helpful to people because I know there's people listening who are trying to figure it out.

And I think people obviously look up to you.

So when you're more open, obviously, with what you're comfortable, I think it's nice to hear when you are like willing to share that kind of detail about your relationship.

Because I know that there's people like, holy shit, can I be a good mother or father to another child?

You know what I mean?

Yeah, it's, it's, um,

there's a spiritual component to this, which is

really the thing that allowed it to happen.

So she and I, you know, we happened to sort of become sober around the same time.

We

were picking up meditation and prayer and really trying to live

with a different sort of framework, you know.

independent of one another, but this was happening kind of at the same time.

And I think that was what even created like the opportunity or the conditions for us to be like,

we're dealing with a lot of ways of thinking that are not our own.

Some of those ways of thinking are putting a lot of pressure on us

to conform in a way that we've seen before.

To either be together in a way that we've seen or to not be together in a way that we've seen.

And so, and

I think, I think like maybe the world is ready for a lot of new relationships, like where people are discovering something.

And I think in some way, like we did, we discovered something.

Like if I had advice for young people, and

it risks being simplistic, you could take it a lot of ways, and I guess it could be misused, but like, I think young people now,

we waste a lot of time worrying about relationships rather than like,

being in them and trying.

We waste a lot of time in fear and hesitation and trying to imagine what the other person's thinking.

Like, when is that ever going to happen?

You don't know.

You've never known.

Stop trying to act like you've ever known.

Never once have you read that person's mind.

It's not going to start now.

You know, I mean, like, I don't know, just

the way that relationships function, at least from a pop culture perspective, I think is like so crazy dysfunctional.

You know, and like, so

no, it's a good point.

It's like definitely a,

it's definitely become something that I think people almost like aren't even noticing.

And it's like these games.

And it's like, we, we don't have to do any of that.

And I definitely felt like I did it.

I was a part of the cycle.

I was like in it heavy.

That's how I literally started this show.

It's just like.

You don't say.

Yeah.

Well, the name.

Yeah.

I was like, oh, we're going to flip it on its head and we're going to like do what men do to us.

And then eventually when I met a man, it doesn't make them happy either.

Exactly.

And then I literally met my husband and I was like, oh my God, I'm literally.

I'm going to call him daddy.

Yeah.

No.

But not, sorry, not in that, not in that.

Never.

I will always.

Scratch that from the record.

Strike it.

Strike it.

Take it out.

I want to talk to you about you, though, because I do think there's a lot of themes

in it that are

kind of

like Joe is the embodiment of not realizing any of this.

Before we get to that, is it true you also almost turned this roll down?

Yeah, it's my thing.

Pen,

why did you almost turn this down?

Same reasons, different, different,

You know?

Are you overacting?

Are we done?

Am I overacting?

Is this your retirement podcast?

Am I overacting?

Yeah, I'm

no.

I mean, I think of anything,

I feel like I'm finally coming of age as an actor.

Maybe.

We'll see.

Well, this is the last season.

Yeah, but I'm not done.

You're going to keep going.

Yeah.

Okay, so you eventually were like, yes, I'm going to do it.

You said before that you.

It was not, I should say, it was not such a resolute no.

Okay.

I was interested in the premise far more because it was, yeah, it was a different kind of role.

I mean, people love to draw the similarities, and I'm responsible for drawing some of them between Dan and Joe, but I mean, they're not the same.

Like, I, like, Joe is the show.

He is the lens through which everything happens.

So being in that position is a completely different experience as an actor.

You get to do a whole lot more.

And because of

the depths to which he goes, there's just a lot more of the spectrum to explore as an an actor.

So it was, you know,

I knew it was an incredible opportunity when I saw it.

At the same time, I wasn't sure that I wanted to give expression to this kind of character for an undisclosed period of time.

Had it been a film, be like, all right, three to six months, done.

I do, though, as I was just listening to you say that, though, it just made me realize, like, I, which is incredible for you as an actor, like, I do think this now is like holding a light to gossip girl, where it's like, it does, you now are really known.

You could be on us one side of the street, and someone's going to know you as gossip girl, and then the other side is going to be Dan, like, sorry, you.

And I actually feel like that is the hardest uphill battle to, like we were just saying, to do to have people not just think of you as one character.

So now I just want them to think of me as two.

Now you got two.

We're going three.

Dan and Joe.

Yeah.

Now we need another basic name for the third.

Who's the third?

Gonna be Dan, Joe, and Tim.

Tim.

Jim.

Matt.

Matt.

i said tim but yeah carl no that's not based on that i hate that that's not um okay a huge theme is obviously toxic masculinity how

have you approached

being a character that is like completely toxic i mean beyond toxic yeah is it a weird headspace to be in sometimes no

I mean, at this point, like, you know, I'm done, which is crazy, by the way.

Wow.

It became real easy.

Even early on.

But easy, even the way, like, you know, you might be a marathon runner, but by the end of a marathon, you're like, I'm about to fall over.

You know, that's the way it was easy.

It was,

I mean,

by the end of every season, by the middle of every season, I usually had back problems because all the expression of rage is just like

a lot.

It was like running, yeah, it was like running a marathon.

It was highly athletic every time.

very physical, you know, a lot of

not a lot of speaking on camera, so a lot of just you know, coming into my body,

physicality of performance was really lovely to explore over the years.

And

then the voiceover was interesting too, finding that.

I feel like I really found it in the sixth episode of season one,

where that episode was almost all voiceover and then silent acting.

And I actually had a mask of prosthetics on

because he'd been badly beaten at the end of that of the previous episode.

Okay.

So,

what was your question?

I was just asking, like, is it weird to get into this character that's like really fucked up?

So, actually, I would say, in some ways, it's quite

fun.

There's levels to it.

Day-to-day basis,

kind of fun, kind of taxing, or it can be very taxing.

Really interesting moments of strangeness that are fun to explore.

Overall, it's been

quite an endurance

test in a way,

because of just the level of commitment that it takes.

And then choosing to speak about them in a way publicly, which I think just adds a level of responsibility to the whole thing.

So, you know, it's just, it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a,

it's a lot.

The final season.

Do you think fans are going to be happy with the ending?

I mean, it's not without its, you know, anything is going to be, you cannot land a six season or five, five season series.

You're going to fumble here and there, but I think where it really matters.

Now, unfortunately, here I can't talk about it in a way that's like

more substantive, you know,

because I wouldn't want to spoil it for you either.

Please don't.

But I think it's very satisfying for a lot of meaningful reasons.

Okay, I'm going to end the episode the same way you end some of yours.

Sure.

If you could go back and talk to your 12-year-old self, what would you say?

I would want to give him a really long hug.

I would want to be

the man, the male figure, the role model in his life that he somehow did not seem to have, like

up until way too late.

Um,

I want to hold him first

so that

you know that that lady got guy Bruno Mars song.

It's been stuck in my head so much.

I want to hold you just for a while.

Maybe you're going to bring the band back.

Fuck acting.

I would love to play music, but you know, I got to find the right people for that.

I would hold him just for a while.

And I would have to get back into the time machine, so then I would die with a smile.

I don't know that I could say, you know, what a 12-year-old wants to, what a 12-year-old needs to hear and will actually listen to is not necessarily what we would say.

So I don't know.

You know, I mean, the essence of what everyone always says is basically like, it's going to be okay.

Like, you're going to be okay.

And I would want to communicate that, but I don't know how he would hear it.

So I think I would just hold him and just let him feel like

not only that you're okay, but like this is the point.

If you haven't,

if there's anything you're missing, if there's anything you're feeling a way that you're hurting, this is the point.

You have to learn somehow.

Yeah.

You know?

It's beautiful.

Yeah.

Penn, thank you

so much for coming on Caller Daddy.

That was truly a pleasure.

I appreciate it.

It's really nice podcasting with podcasters.

Yeah, right?

So much easier.

10 out of 10.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

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