Shonda Rhimes: Women Need To Brag More

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What is up, Daddy Gang?

It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

We're ready.

All right.

Everybody is so excited that I'm doing it.

Like, I've never had a reaction like this.

Stop.

No.

I'm telling people I'm doing it.

The reaction that I've gotten has been like, nobody gives a crap about anybody else.

It's fascinating.

Well, I feel the same way about you.

So the vibes are great, Shonda.

The fact that you're like, everyone's excited for me to be on Call Her Daddy.

I'm like, well, my whole team is so excited for you to be here.

So it's a perfect mashup.

Thank you for being here.

Shonda Rhimes, welcome to Caller Daddy.

Excited to be here.

Okay.

How are you doing this morning?

I'm good.

I'm good.

Yeah.

You're here for?

I'm here for, you know, I'm here for my book, Year of Yes, the 10th Anniversary Edition, but I'm also here because today is the 450th celebration for the 450th episode of Grey's Anatomy.

Can you believe that?

No.

Like 450 episodes feels insane to me.

It feels insane, but also it feels right.

It's just so strange because now it's been, it's been so many years.

Like it's such a part of my life, like the fabric of my life.

Whereas it made such a huge difference.

Like, like I still think about the times like when we first started.

Like I'm still there in my head.

I'm still there.

I think we're all still there.

I'm still at season one.

Like I'm at the L Vadwire.

I'm at, I'm at George's death.

Like I'm still in that.

In the early,

initial intern era.

We're going to get to all that.

We have so much to get through.

Also, you moved to Connecticut, right?

Yes, I did.

During the pandemic.

Yeah.

How are you feeling being back in LA versus Connecticut life?

How do we feel?

You know what?

I love living in Connecticut.

And it's really interesting.

Like I lived in LA for almost 30 years, right?

From the very beginning of my career from film school on.

I do not miss it at all.

It's fair.

Like, and I'm shocked by it.

I miss my friends.

I miss, but I do not miss it.

You've made friends in Connecticut, though?

I've made friends in Connecticut.

It's just a very different vibe.

nobody's in the business nobody cares so you can like go to the grocery store and people are like

i cry like i i i went to costco and i got a costco card and i cried in the parking lot why because it's like the first time i was ever able to do anything that felt like that normal oh my god you're fully going to costco every day being like does anyone notice me nope perfect check in la i can give everybody a job like it's not just that people knew who i was but i'm a person who could hire an actor, an executive, a director.

Like I could give anybody a job.

So it felt like everybody knew who I was and wanted wanted something, not in a mean way, but you know what I mean.

No, everyone wanted something from you.

And in Connecticut, they're like,

we like your shows, but they don't know.

You know what I mean?

They're like, Lou, I'm trying to get to the eggs.

Exactly, exactly.

Oh, that's so interesting.

You kind of now have this reprieve since getting away.

This crazy freedom, which, you know, I like talking to Ellen Pompeo, it's different for her.

Like in LA, she gets to be like more invisible because everyone's used to actors.

When she goes out into the world, it's totally different.

Oh, that's so interesting.

I didn't even think about that.

You're right, though, because when you see an actor at a restaurant, you're like, oh, that's cool.

But you see Shonda Rhimes, you're like,

I'm about to pitch my life.

Somebody comes and says, there's a lot of that.

And there's a lot of waiters who are like, I'm an actor.

You know what?

And I love, bless their hearts.

You know what I mean?

But I was like, I can't.

You're like, I'm just trying to eat the bread.

I started to become a recluse.

Like, I stopped leaving my home.

Okay, that's not healthy.

Yeah, it was not healthy.

You need to go to Costco.

Yeah, exactly.

I am so excited to sit down with you because obviously so many of your shows are my favorite shows, but you are the most influential showrunner in Hollywood.

It is such an honor to sit with you.

You have some of the biggest television shows that will go down in history as the best forever.

I will rewatch them forever.

They're timeless.

But when I was starting to research you, I didn't realize that you wrote one of my favorite movies, which is The Princess Diaries 2.

Yeah.

Can you tell me just a little bit about what it was like working on that script and that project?

It was so much fun.

I mean, I had written like, I had written like very few things at that point.

I think I had written

The Halle Berry introducing Dorothy Dandridge and I'd done, I think, I think I'd done Crossroads before that.

I can't remember which one came first.

Wait, you did Crossroads?

I wrote Crossroads starring Britney Spears.

Shonda.

I had the epic experience on that because I was there for the whole filming of it and everything.

It was a great experience.

I'm like, what haven't you done?

Also, the range of like Crossroads, then Greys, then Princess Diaries.

Oh, wow.

So this was after Crossroads.

I think it was right after Crossroads.

And it was an amazing experience.

It was, it was my first big like studio film.

Um, the producer was a woman, you know, like that.

It was just this really great vibe of we're making this thing.

I got to write lines that Julie Andrews got to say, which feels very full circle now now that we're Bridgerton.

It's really cool.

You know, it was really cool.

The mattress scene of the sleepover.

Yes.

People talk about that so much.

Because I think, I know, I'm like, why do you, I think it's because the way that

brought a girl's sleepover, not only to life, but then you had this element that was like, I want to try this.

Like, I tried it in my house.

Did you?

And my mom was like, you have to stop.

Like, the mattress isn't going to fit down the basement stairs.

It's not going to do it.

Yeah.

No, for me, it was Gary Marshall, who was the director, was, like, he brought me into his office and he's like.

epic.

I mean, the man's done everything.

He brought me to his office and he was like, we need a sleepover party.

Like, that was what he said, Shawnee, we need a sleepover party.

And I was like, what?

And he was like, we need this.

And I had the greatest time writing it, but I've been like, what the heck is this dude talking about?

He was so right, though.

How did you even come up with the mattress idea?

Had you done that yourself before?

No, no, it just sounds fun and really great.

Yeah.

It is really fun.

Okay.

I want to play a little game.

Okay.

We're going to do Chandelan Rapid Fire.

Okay.

Which character would you switch lives with for a day?

Christina Yang.

Wait, but who is she dating at that point?

Oh, I don't even care who she's dating.

But can I ask you, Burke or

Owen?

Neither.

Isn't that interesting?

I mean, she ended up alone for a reason.

I know.

Like, neither.

Yeah.

But do you think Burke loved her so much that he knew that Christina couldn't fully be herself with him?

So he let her go.

Yes.

I mean, the beauty of Burke and like having him get to come back and like give her that whole facility with the heart printing machines.

Yeah.

Crazy.

It's beautiful.

Okay.

If you are in the middle of a crisis, who would you call first?

Olivia Pope.

Oh, without question.

Well, I was going to to say, either Meredith Gray.

Let's say you're in the middle of a forest.

Okay.

You are bleeding to death and you accidentally killed someone.

Are we calling Olivia Pope?

Are we calling Annalise Keating?

Are we calling Meredith?

I'm calling Olivia Pope.

Okay.

Me too.

Because Olivia Pope knows how to get to everybody else.

That's true.

Someone will fix you up and you'll be fine.

Okay, great.

What is your favorite line of dialogue you've ever written?

I don't have a favorite line of dialogue.

I mean, I've written so much dialogue and it's so interesting to hear it come back to me that I know what's big for other people, but I don't know that I have a particular favorite line of dialogue.

Like when you write something like pick me, choose me, love me, did you have any idea?

Or you're just like writing one day and you're like, huh.

You have to remember, like for me, Grey's Anatomy was my very first television show.

I was learning to write TV while writing that show.

So I wasn't thinking like this is going to be an iconic moment.

I literally was just writing something I really wanted to watch.

Shonda, I am obsessed with you being like, it was like my first go at it.

Meanwhile, it's like, wait, it's perfection to a T, which I love that you respond to that.

You crashed it.

Okay, what's been the most romantic Bridgerton moment, in your opinion?

Oh, wow.

I burn for you.

Season one, The Duke.

So good.

Yeah.

Would you rather intern at Seattle Grace or Olivia Pope and Associates?

Seattle Grace.

Okay, good answer.

What is an illness you were convinced you had after writing about it for Grace?

Oh my gosh.

There's so many.

There's literally so many.

Did you become a little bit of a hypochondriac?

You become a terrible hypochondriac.

Worse than that, I became somebody who became convinced that I could like solve people's medical emergencies.

Okay.

I was like, there were pregnant women in my writer's room and I'd be like, if you need a C-section, I got you.

Could you put you on the table?

We got it done.

People are like, stop it.

You're like, I am a doctor.

I still believe I can do an appendectomy beginning to end.

Still believe that right now.

I think we all kind of, though, thought that we were doctors by the end.

I was like, I kind of know what's going on.

That's really interesting.

I didn't even think about that.

Wait, the hiccups also.

Yes.

Shonda, you fucked me up.

When that happened, I was like, she died from hiccups.

And then every time I hiccup now, I think of you.

I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's the truth.

Okay, what is something you took from one of the sets?

Oh, wow.

I might get in trouble for this.

It's okay.

But I took

the resolute desk that, like the John F.

Kennedy resolute desk that Fitz has.

I have that.

I've taken a lot of things.

Wait, wait, Wait.

How did you get a desk out of there with no one noticing?

You're just like carrying it.

I took a lot of things.

Yeah.

Wait, that's

iconic.

There's a lot of things I've taken, and I'm sure I've like one day someone's going to be upset about it, but I could probably have a museum.

I've taken stuff that means something to me.

Wait, do you use the desk or it's just in storage?

No, that's in storage.

For a long time, I really wanted to use it.

And everyone's like, Chanda, like, not quite.

So it's in storage.

Oh, man, maybe you'll pull it out one day and like write there.

This is going to give me some inspo.

Okay, which actor are you the closest friends with today?

Oh, that's interesting.

Scott Foley, who plays Jake Ballard.

Interesting.

And the reason is, is because

he and I and his wife are like great friends.

We live in the same town now.

Like I moved to Connecticut and I kind of moved to the town they moved to, which is a stalker move, but wasn't on purpose.

He's like, Shonda.

Yeah.

He's like, you want to put me in another show?

So our kids are friends.

We're friends.

Marika and I are like golf buddies.

We learned how to golf together.

So Jake Ballard.

Yeah.

So yeah.

He was like supposed like it made sense and it didn't make sense with Olivia.

It was always Fitz.

Yeah.

But he wanted her and it makes me sad.

But Fitz and her would just

the fact that you had us rooting for an affair.

I'm very proud of that.

I mean, in a terrible way, I'm proud of it.

Because that's what you wanted.

I wanted people to go on the journey that Olivia went on.

I would be smiling, then I'm like, stop it.

What am I doing?

This is wrong.

Poor Melly, meanwhile.

Yeah.

They weren't meant to be together anyways.

Fitz and Melly were not right.

No.

Okay.

When you were younger, let's go all the way back.

Okay.

Did you know you wanted to be a writer?

Was there anything else you were passionate about overwriting?

I don't know that I knew I wanted to be a writer, but like from the time I was little, I was making up stories into a tape recorder and then trying to get my mom to type them up.

But I thought like, like for a long time, I was like, I want to be a doctor.

I want to be a lawyer.

I want to be, you know what I mean?

Like, I wanted to be all these things, but really, I didn't want to be them.

I just wanted to research them and then pretend.

Right.

And then you wrote these characters of like who maybe you would have been one day.

So I get to pretend to be all these things.

But really, like I just, in my mind, I was going to spend my whole time like in a big giant library, like reading all the books I could.

Like that was my idea of like a perfect life.

Do you remember one of the first stories you ever wrote?

Oh, wow.

No, I don't.

I don't remember like ones I wrote when I was little.

No, but you were constantly writing.

I was constantly making up stories.

I wouldn't say I was constantly, I think I started like writing in earnest when I was maybe like eight.

And where do you think that came from of creating stories?

Were you like escaping your reality?

Were you liking the creation?

I had like a really amazing childhood.

I'm the youngest of six kids and my parents are like these like very intellectual, interesting people.

And so I grew up in this house of like, there was always something going on.

And I was the quiet one.

I was the shy one.

I was the weird one.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like I was an odd kid.

And I just, I don't know.

I grew up, I would say I grew up in books.

Yeah, one of six is interesting because it's like, I feel like the youngest can either be the loudest or the most introverted.

And there's kind of no in between there's no like the middle child can kind of go back and forth on the day to day the youngest is set in stone and that's okay that's interesting because i know i read um you would go into your pantry yeah and you would write all of these stories it wasn't even that i would write i would sit in the pantry i'd play in there from the time i was like three or something like really young and i would have all these stories and worlds going on the pantry was like a kingdom to me my mom would open the pantry door and be like i need to make dinner and i'd be like who gets to die like the cans of tomato paste which were like the peasants they got to die today.

I think a lot of people would love to be in your brain for a day because I feel like there are so many things going on and so many brilliant stories, which thankfully you've led us into a little bit.

Okay, so fast forward, you went to Dartmouth.

When you graduated, what were you picturing for yourself?

I was so miserable when I graduated.

Like, and I say this all the time to people who are graduating.

I laid on the floor of my dorm room and sobbed while my mother packed my room because I was like, I'm not leaving.

I don't know what to do.

Like I was so lost.

Was it more that you loved college life or you didn't know what was next?

I loved college life.

I was thriving there, but I also had no idea what was next.

Like I didn't have a job coming out.

I didn't know what I wanted to do.

I knew like, I kept telling people like, I want to be Toni Morrison, but you can't just be Toni Morrison.

And so I was lost.

That's so interesting because

A lot of the questions I have today, I think, will hopefully allow young women watching to feel how

relatable your story can be for them of not knowing where you were at that point.

And it's so relatable to like, it's so annoying when you have that friend that's like, I've got the job out of college.

Bye, guys.

You know exactly what I'm doing.

I have nothing.

I was the same way.

I was so lost.

I was like, I don't even know what to do.

And then I took a job that I didn't love because I was like, I need to pay the bills and I need to pay rent.

Like, what else am I going to do?

Which is important.

It's what you're supposed to do, really.

Like, I always say do something until you can do something else.

Like, I moved and I lived in my sister's basement in the suburbs of San Francisco.

And what did you do?

And I got a job working at an advertising agency.

How did that go?

I was the receptionist and then I was like a little account person who was like billing people for the ads.

And then there was one day when they asked everybody at the company, they were doing like a test commercial for Barbie and they asked everybody to write like an experience of Barbie and share it with them if they had one.

And I wrote this essay about my Barbie and how Ken was useless and she used to stuff her shoes in Ken's head and like she traveled everywhere and lived the best life.

And they picked my essay and they made it the test commercial.

They didn't get the account, but they, but like I got to go and like do the voiceover of this test commercial that they made based on an essay I wrote.

And that was the moment I was like, okay, I can do this.

I got to get out of here.

Yeah.

No more advertising.

No more advertising.

That's pretty incredible that you were in a job that maybe you weren't as fulfilled in, but then there was a sliver of your passion that you were able to grab on to.

And then it reminded you, like, oh, I got to go for it.

And it's important to have those moments because, you know, when you're working in those jobs and you're doing like the grunt thing, you're invisible.

Like, nobody's thinking that you're smart.

Nobody wants to hear your ideas.

Nobody's looking to you.

Like, you're invisible.

That's a good point.

And it's a really soul-crushing feeling.

I remember that being like a soul-crushing feeling, but you have to remember that like your time is coming.

It's so true.

And it's also like paying your dues of everyone's, most people are going to have those jobs that you're like, why am I here?

Why am I here?

Why am I here?

But most of it leads you to then having.

even more strength to be like, I have to find what I love because I can't do this forever.

And it almost propels you forward in a way that maybe had you gotten something that was kind of cool and you kind of liked, you would have just been like, this is pretty cool.

So if you're in the shitter right now, trust us, it's going to go up forever.

It's going to get better.

But I agree with you.

Like I feel like I, then I went to film school and I got out of film school and I got a job like working at a place for the mentally ill and housed.

It was a terrible job for me.

Like I was not fit for the job.

But what it meant was that every night I went home and I was like, if I don't write, then I'm not doing anything.

So I wrote like crazy and sort of wrote my way out of that situation.

Can you just kind of to summarize that, because I do think this is such a big theme for people is like

a lot of people feel lost, what we were talking about with their careers.

Do you have to pinpoint that?

Like any advice for someone who is literally listening to this right now, being like, Shonda, I am going through it in my 20s.

I can't find myself.

What do I do?

Any advice?

You know what I always feel like is now is the time.

If there's something you've always wanted to try to do, there's some dream you have, that is the time to do it.

Like I always tell people, like, you're never going to be as willing to be as broke and poor as you are right now.

So like 10 years from now, when you've been working in that like human resources job, you're not going to go, like, I'm going to dump all this and now go be broke.

Cause now I have like a bigger rent to pay.

Maybe I have a kid.

Like do it then when you can be broke and it's just you trying to make your dream come true.

Everyone after this episode quits their job.

They're like, whoa, Shonda told me.

It's really good advice, though.

You're right.

There is no going back after that.

So just do it now.

It never gets easier.

It never gets easier.

So just jump.

Okay.

You mentioned Gray's was like really the first thing you worked on, which is

insane and incredible.

You're in your early 30s when this happens.

Okay, talk to me about how you came up with the idea, all the pieces that got you there.

So I want to say to people, like, it wasn't the very first thing I ever did.

It's not like I'd written some movies.

Yes.

And so I'd been working in the industry, but in like a very like journeyman kind of way.

And I became a mom.

And so Harper, who is as old as the show, was born.

And I realized like I was, I did that thing where I had a kid way before anybody else did.

9-11 made me go, like, I really want to be a mom.

So nine months and two days after 9-11, Harper was born.

Yeah.

So

I had this kid at 32 and none of my friends had kids.

And you never leave the house again once you have a baby, obviously.

But that's, I started watching television.

And like, I was watching like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and 24 and all these shows and going, that's where the real character development is.

You know, like you could follow a character and like really grow them and change them and make them interesting.

Whereas in a movie, you got two hours, that's it.

Right.

And so I got excited about that.

And I remember saying to my agents, like, I want to write TV and them being a little bit horrified because at that point, TV was not considered sexy

at all.

So I was like determined and I went and did it.

And the year that Grace came out, it was the same year Lost and Desperate Housewives came out, which is when television sort of exploded.

And the idea for Grace, talk to me about how that came to be.

So the first, I, I wrote a pilot one year, like the very first year, I made the effort to like go through the, like, it's called television development season.

I went through development season and I wrote a show about war correspondence, which was like four women who were like super competitive and covered wars.

And I was like, I loved it, but we were kind of at war and it was considered in poor taste, which was fine.

So the next year, they were like, well, do you want to try another development season again?

And I was like, I was at ABC and I was like, what does Bob Iger want?

He was the chairman of the company.

I was like, what does he want?

They're like, He wants a medical show.

And I was like one of those people who could watch like surgeries on like those like channels, the discovery channels, where they'd show you like removing a tumor.

Like, I thought that stuff was amazing.

Oh my God.

Okay.

And by the way, when I had been like thinking about leaving Hollywood, I was going to go and do a post-baccalaureate year to then go to medical school.

So, like, I was like, this is made for me.

Oh, you're like, put me in.

Yeah.

If this doesn't work out, I'm going to actually become a doctor.

So, why not write about it first?

So, you have no real true like experience that much in TV.

This is your first big moment.

Take me to day one writer's room.

What do you remember feeling?

You know, it was so exciting to me.

Like, I mean, even like, so you write this pilot.

They say they're going to shoot this pilot.

They get ready to shoot the pilot.

You've written like interior operating room day.

And then you go to a stage where they have built you an operating room.

Like they literally built me this two-story operating room with a gallery up top that everybody remembers from Grace.

Gorgeous.

I played in that thing for like a whole day, like yelling like clear and like pretending to do surgeries.

Like I played the whole day because it's like the most amazing playground.

So to me, it didn't feel like work.

It was really fun.

I was terrified because what happens in television is the writer is in charge.

So I'm this very shy person who's very introverted, who probably could never even been on your podcast back then, who suddenly had like 300 people looking at me and being like, what do we do, boss?

What is the biggest lesson that you learned early on?

Oh my gosh.

You know what?

For me, the biggest lesson I learned early on, and I think this is a lesson that everybody should know, it's don't pretend you know something that you don't know.

People do that all the time.

They like try, because they don't know what they're doing, they try to act like they know.

And then they're like very secretive or like closed off.

And they, can I say fuck it up?

They fuck it up really badly.

You can say fuck it up here, Shonda.

That's actually one of the nicer things people have said in that chair.

That's good.

That's good.

Oh, that's so, that's such good advice.

So when you don't know something, say like, I have no idea what that is.

Can someone explain it to me?

Or I don't know what that is.

Let's figure that that out.

Versus pretending that you know.

Because did you have that a couple of times where you were like, I'm, I'm this.

I was completely lost.

I knew nothing, like, nothing.

I'd never been on a soundstage before except to like watch something else be filmed.

And now I was like in charge of like the editors and the music.

And I didn't know anything.

And so instead of pretending that I did and like making huge mistakes, I just was like, this is like another college.

I'm going to learn everything I can.

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talk to me about the casting process of how involved were you very involved okay who was the first person like big main cast that you casted

I'm not sure who was the first person.

I remember like everybody coming in to read.

And I remember T.R.

Knight being like one of the very first people to come in to read for a role and us being like, we love him immediately.

Like I remember that really, really clearly.

Do you remember Meredith Gray moment?

Oh, well, so that was even better.

Meredith, Ellen never came in to read.

Oh.

And I don't think we ever read any, any Ellen Meredith Grays.

I remember saying to people, she had done this movie called Moonlight Mile.

And I remember saying to people, like, I'm looking for somebody who feels like that girl in Moonlight Mile.

I want somebody who feels like that girl.

And I kept saying it.

And finally, someone was like, I think you might be able to have that girl from Moonlight Mile.

You're like, what a concept.

And I was like, oh.

So then Ellen and I had like lunch at like Barney's, I think it was.

And we like hit it off.

It was kind of perfect.

I was like, I get her.

She gets me.

And you just knew.

Yeah.

And it was easy.

Talk to me about Sandra.

Oh.

Sandra was really interesting because Sandra came in to read for the part of Dr.

Bailey.

Yeah.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, she came in to read for the part of Dr.

Bailey.

Whoa.

And, you know, she had, you know, established actor.

She had done, but hadn't, we hadn't seen,

oh, the movie about the wine.

I know what you're talking about, but you know.

She had done a bunch of movies and stuff.

So Sandra came in and read the part of Dr.

Bailey, like blew it out of the water, like did like that like first monologue that Dr.

Bailey does.

And we were all like, oh my God.

And everybody was like, okay, she's Dr.

Bailey.

And I was like, no, she's Christina.

And I just knew it.

Like, I don't know how I knew it, but I knew it.

And you obviously love that character so much as we all do.

I think something about Christina Yang that changed, I think, a lot of our, I mean, it changed my life in terms of watching a woman be so intense about her craft

and

also be really

rigid, but loving, but it's, she's so complicated and she's so fierce, but she's so soft, like the moments she cries.

And I wonder, like, was she one of the hardest ones to write for or the easiest?

No, I related to that character so much.

And here's what's crazy about Grays.

That for those first couple of seasons, it did not feel hard at all.

Nothing about it felt hard.

I love, like, I was, I'd made up a world and I was getting to play in it every week.

And so I would be like acting on all the parts in my office, like being really loud and crying when the characters cried and all that stuff.

But I was having the time of my life.

Like it was, it wasn't hard to write them.

They were there.

They were.

Okay, what storyline was the hardest emotionally for you to write?

Denny Duquette, killing Denny.

And only because there were other ones that were just as hard later, like when George died.

Of course.

But because that was the first real emotional one, like I remember like he died on set, like we'd filmed the scene and I went back to the writer's room and sobbed like a baby for like an hour.

It was too, like I'd made that show like so much of my my life.

It was like too real for me.

I think I lost a part of my life when that happened, the L VAT, and we're all crying.

And I was like, it was one of the most beautiful moments in television and the saddest moments.

And I just, and then that was the season finale, right?

I think that was the season.

Yeah, it was the season finale.

Because then Meredith is standing there and

Derek and Finn.

Yeah, was it Finn?

Oh my God.

And she had just slept with him and the whole thing.

Oh my God.

And they're all in the gowns.

Shonda, you took us for a ride there.

Yeah, I love that.

What storyline pissed the audience off the most, do you think?

Oh, that's interesting.

What storyline on Grey's?

Wow.

Maybe Dead Denny coming back to life.

We got to talk.

Yeah, I think that upset a lot of people.

What were you thinking?

I think I was grieving.

I was just grieving, Denny.

I just wanted to see him on our screen.

I loved him so much, and I loved working with him.

I think I was just grieving.

Well, to be fair, the scene's obviously when she goes back because Meredith is dying and then she goes back and she's seeing her mother in that moment and then denny shows up in the bomb squad guy and you're like what's happening yeah okay i did love that episode though because the whole thing okay which character's death hit you the hardest oh wow

probably george's i mean george was really

That character is so beloved.

Tiar is such a lovely guy.

That was such a hard thing to do.

He was so, Tiara was so amazing because there was no, he like, he didn't need to lay on that table, but he he was like, I'm going to do the role, even though you're never going to see my face the whole nine years.

He was wonderful.

007 in the palm.

007 in the palm.

You really wanted us to actually like have like snot coming out of our noses.

I mean, it, it broke me.

So I knew that the audience would respond to it, but I really loved it.

And yeah.

I also think one that kind of always left me a little unsettled was

Mixteemi and Lexi.

I just felt like they had,

I don't know, I want, I was like, oh my God, after that plane crash, you're like, I actually feel like they would have worked weirdly.

Like towards the end, I was rooting for them and they were actually getting really cute.

And then they were gone.

Thanks, Shonda.

I have to say, like, I recently, because like, I haven't watched the show.

You have to think about the fact that I haven't really watched the show.

So I recently went back and I started like watching select pieces of episodes.

I watched that episode.

And I was horrified.

I was like, oh my God, this is like a freaking snuff film.

Like, what the heck?

I know, thanks.

But in it, but during the time when I'm doing it, like, I'm, I'm inside the story.

And I always think my job is to be keeper of the story, not keeper of the actors, not keeper of the show, not keeper of the fans.

Like, my whole job is to just be true to the story.

That was the story.

But I watch it back now and I was like, I can't believe that that actually happened and that people survived watching that.

That was horrifying.

We didn't.

We're still there.

We're still at the plane.

Okay.

You have said that you cannot be what you cannot see.

Yes.

How have you embodied this through your shows?

Oh, that's a really wonderful question.

I mean, I feel like we really show a vast array of different kinds of women, different kinds of people, different kinds of viewpoints.

And it's not like a very purposeful thing where I'm like, we're going to check this box or check this box.

I like to explore all these things.

And I do think that as somebody who grew up maybe not ever really seeing herself,

It's just never occurred to me that like we're going to make a show that doesn't include me, that doesn't include, you know,

a perspective that maybe might be considered an outside perspective.

Can you talk a little bit more about that of like not seeing yourself when you were younger?

I mean, when you grow up and you're watching television, I mean, the default and not just the default for women of color, but the default for women was like characters played either, they were either like sort of the vampy slutty character or they were like the mom, the very, or they were like the sidekick, like the smart, quirky like secretary.

Yeah, there was such a lack of complexity to women,

film and TV that,

I mean, I think you now hear all these young girls talk about like Disney and what it taught us as like, you find the guy and then life is good.

And it's like, now we've said that a lot of times, but when you really get underneath the ethos of that, it's like, there is such a core

established feeling from a young age where you're watching these magical things, but that one storyline, you're kind of telling yourself that needs to be for you.

Right.

So the characters you've you've brought to life, like that's why I love Christina Yang so much, because I also relate to her where I'm like, I'm such a workaholic.

I love my job.

I'm intense.

I'm all the things.

Interesting.

Can we talk about Olivia Pope, who, I mean,

one of the most iconic characters of all time?

Talk to me about your inspiration behind her.

Well, first of all, you know, there's a woman named Judy Smith who literally was a DC fixer.

She worked with Monica Lewinsky.

She worked with lots of different people.

She worked in the Bush, the first Bush White House.

And she is this DC fixer.

And Betsy Beers, who's my producing partner, brought her to meet me.

And I remember thinking, like, I already have two shows.

I'm super busy.

I don't have time for this.

And Judy Smith and I sat down to talk about like what she did for a living.

Like, that's basically it.

And four hours later, I was like, oh my God, I can write hundreds of episodes of this show.

Wow.

So it is truly based on a real woman.

It's based on a real woman's job.

Like, Olivia Pope is not Judy Smith, obviously.

Of course, the president, all all that.

Of course.

But it was based on a real woman's job.

And that job was so appealing to me.

You know, like after like, we had a lot of drama on Greys and a lot, you know, behind the scenes drama on Greys, like the idea of somebody who knew how to fix things like that, who knew how to manage crises and solve problems like that.

We were fascinated by her.

Oh, and it's so

intense and sexy and fun, but gut-wrenching.

And her confidence, the way that woman walks into a scene.

I mean, also, it's crazy.

did you know that all a lot of the shows that you are known for these leading women have these iconic walks how is that funny

um obviously meredith gray walking in um and then we have yeah olivia olivia these walks yeah it's funny like i don't know what that's about but yeah it's kind of iconic um Was there ever a time where the network did push back on one of the stories that you were writing for these women?

Oh, wow.

They pushed back on Olivia Pope having an abortion.

Big time.

And they didn't push back when

Christina?

So here's what's interesting.

I think when

the first time Christina Yang becomes pregnant on the show, which I think is at the end of season one

near that place,

that was supposed to be Christina Yang getting an abortion.

And the network didn't tell me I couldn't do it, but they did come to me with like all of their concerns.

And I got scared.

And so she had an ectopic pregnancy instead.

Isn't that interesting?

And then when I was like when we were doing Olivia Pope, I knew what I was doing.

And I was like, this feels so right for this character.

It's not even a question for me.

That's, I mean, again, you're writing things that women are living and breathing every day and the complexity of these choices that women have to make for themselves and their bodies.

And then it is so crazy that then you're in the position where you're like answering to networks where it's like, I mean, how do you think writing about olivia pope's abortion what did that effect have on people i mean i think one of the things that we did was i wanted it to be that somebody you knew admired loved because when you spend an hour a week with my characters a lot of times you're spending more time with those people than you are with people in your own lives in a more intimate way I wanted people that somebody knew and loved to be going through this and for it not to be like the abortion episode.

Do you know what I mean?

That's a good point.

Right.

It's like that was the Christmas episode, actually.

Wait, I forgot.

It's the Christmas episode.

The juxtaposition.

Yeah, it's a very interesting episode.

But the network, and probably, well, I can't get in trouble now, but the network had like a problem with it.

They were like, you can't, they wanted to edit it down and they wanted to be like, you can't show it.

But I had learned something earlier, which, which I learned with the sex scenes was, you know, they would say to me, like, we're worried about this Fitz and Olivia sex scene.

And I'd be like, but I shot it shot for shot, like the Meredith and Derek sex scene from Grays.

So it's not the, it's not the scene.

It's the people having the sex.

And then we did it again with Haddog of Murder.

It'd be like two men and they'd have a problem.

I'm like, but we shot it shot for shot.

So it's not the scene, it's the people.

So when we did the abortion, if you know, notice, earlier in like two seasons earlier, three seasons earlier, Olivia stands with a soldier while she has her abortion.

She holds her hand while she has an abortion.

It's the same scene.

And the network was like, you can't show this, blah, blah.

And I was like, but we already did.

Like, here it is right here.

That's so interesting that it's all character-based.

It really is.

And when you think about it, it is.

It's emotional.

Like, they're not like what they're wanting to say is that technically it's this or this or this, but it's not really that.

It's, it's how they feel the audience is going to react to that particular person or that particular couple.

It's like, no, we've already had one of these on the show.

And they're like, wait, where?

But with all the same sounds, with all the same equipment.

Like, they wanted us to remove like some of the sound from the abortion machine.

They like all of these things.

And meanwhile, it was like one of the most real, honest scenes that you could have given to women.

And what I thought was important was that people kept being like, it's going to be like a big deal when Fitz finds out about it.

I was like, that is not the story.

That is not like, this is not about him.

Period.

Yeah.

You said for the first 10 years of Grays, you were worried it was all going to go away one day.

Oh, yeah.

Talk to me about how you overcame that fear.

Oh, my God.

I don't know.

I feel like, and I talk about this in the new chapter of the book.

I don't think I ever felt, and I know this, I did not feel like my career was settled or like that I could relax until the day that I was sitting in this theater being inducted into the Television Academy Hall of Fame by Oprah Winfrey, which sounds crazy.

That was like 2016 or something.

And in that moment, I remember like holding my daughter's hand and looking at her and going like, we made it.

Like, and really for the first time feeling like that.

Like up until then, I was like, they could take this away at any time.

I could be fired at any time.

The audience could turn their back at any time.

Like, I could be a has-been at any minute.

Damn.

Yeah.

Isn't that crazy, though, when you look back at that?

Like, what do you wish you could have told yourself?

Because obviously, although they could have,

the success was, the writing was on the wall.

It was undeniable.

You know what?

For now, now I look back and I almost don't want to tell myself anything.

I do wish I had enjoyed all the moments more, like reveled in them.

But if I had, like, would there have been a private practice?

Would there have been a scandal?

Would I have been like, I want to own an entire night of television?

I was so busy like being like, I got to get a second job just in case the first job goes away that it never occurred to me.

That's a good point.

I agree.

I,

there's almost sometimes you look back and you're like, what would I would have, what should I have told myself?

But the grit and the tenacity and you pushing yourself to the extreme, maybe there was a beautiful element of that instability that you felt that actually kind of didn't exist, but you felt it.

But it it pushed me like, would Greys have gone past three or four seasons?

Because every year I was like, we have to reinvent this show from the ground up.

It's got to be original.

The stories have to be the best stories we've ever told.

Every season I was pushing that way, not because I just loved it, but because I was like, if this ends, like I'm qualified for nothing other than making stuff up.

Shonda.

Yeah, for making stuff up.

Stop it.

Stop it.

You just referenced 2014, you became responsible for an entire lineup of prime time TV.

Okay,

talk to me about the pressure you were under when you got that slot.

Like, what do you remember feeling at that time?

Oh, wow.

I remember most them talking about the lineup, but I remember what I remember most is like sitting in a hotel room before the television upfronts.

They were still negotiating my contract that I was supposed to go on stage like the next day.

And there were like guys standing outside the room with like papers.

And like, I remember feeling like, this feels crazy.

And so it was all about like this this like contract deal that I wasn't, um, that I wasn't bending on and my team was really great on, but I wasn't really feeling like what was happening.

And then we have this moment where like I walk out on stage with Viola Davis and it's like in slow motion in my head.

And inside that moment, because that's what happens to me.

It's never like I realize it's happening beforehand.

Inside that moment, as it's happening, I was like, holy crap.

Like we have all of Thursday night.

Like it happened in that moment.

That's also crazy too, because it's the things that obviously the consumers and the viewers don't get to see.

You're like, I'm so happy.

You're all excited for Thursday.

My contract's not even done.

Like, what?

It was like, I'm not walking out on stage until it's done.

So that was what was going on.

It was great.

I mean,

I learned a lot about being a businesswoman, like doing this job in a way that I don't think I ever expected.

Oh, I can't even imagine.

I mean, going from being a writer, starting on movies, going to TV, creating your own production company, owning this, the biggest night in television.

It's like, it forces you.

And I think as a woman, I've had experiences where I'm finding that most people don't kind of want you to learn the ropes as much because then it's easier to navigate around you.

Like you are this creative talent.

But also, if you continue to learn more about the industry, you're kind of a threat because then you can push your weight around.

Exactly.

And people don't like that.

Well, I think the thing that's most important is what they don't want you to realize is how much power you have.

I always say power is not power if you don't know you have it.

And I've known lots of women who I'm like, you have so much power, but you believe that you're powerless.

So like everybody else is controlling you.

The minute you realize that, like, I was like, oh, they can't actually make these shows without me.

I mean, even with Grays, I was naive enough to be like, I'm the only person who knows what happens.

So they can't fire me.

So I acted like someone who couldn't be fired.

But I think those things are important, like to understand that.

It is so important.

And it's like educating yourself in the moments of, and I'm sure you've had this, where you are so good at something, but you can become better at that thing when you start to really listen to people around you and observing and you're seeing.

Like, again, starting a production company, you're like, that wasn't your full background.

But I'm assuming, and I probably know, but like, it has helped you so much then continue to have autonomy and control in huge moments that when you're doing these negotiations, you're like, and my production company is is going to be the one that is working on the show and I'm going to write it.

And so you have more control.

Right.

You learn and grow.

And by the way, like, I always think people are like, oh, you know, you're this leader.

I was terrible at being a leader when I started, but you have to look at it like, I mean, I was shy and confused and didn't understand, but you have to look at it like from the point of view of this is a skill I need to learn in order to keep doing what I'm doing and to get better at it.

So instead of just approaching it like, well, this is how I lead, I was like, so now I've got to figure out how to be really great at this.

That's

really good advice.

I'm taking that because I feel like when I started, I was just a creative.

And then I started a production company in my company.

And I was, I would always share with people, like, I know that I'm so creative and I want to just put my head into the creative that I'm, oh, I have to tell people what they're doing every day and leading.

And it wasn't natural to me.

It's not natural, right?

Right.

It was very like, wait, can someone else do this?

And I'm like, no, because I know where I want to head the direction, but it kind of felt foreign for a while.

But then you just get the reps and you acknowledge, I know I'm not the best at this.

Once again, you say what you don't know how to do and then you make an effort to like learn as much as you can and to surround yourself with people who really know what they're doing.

And I think people respect that though, probably, Shonda, of you being like in those beginning days, recognizing your strengths and your weaknesses.

I think the worst thing is when a leader is just like blindly saying, like, I'm leading the path.

And you're like, everyone's like, wait, we actually have a better idea.

Can you listen to us?

And people don't respect you.

I think that's very clear.

People can see that, that, A, that you're, you know, the emperor has no clothes and they don't respect you.

Like be honest and say, like, I don't know enough about this.

It's not going to take your power away.

Not if you're good at what you do.

And again, I think as a woman, sometimes we can think that it's better to fake it because it's like, oh my God, I'm just happy to even be here.

But again, grounding yourself in, no, no, no, no, you're there for a reason.

Everyone knows your strengths.

It's okay if you show some of your weaknesses because then people are going to want to rise to the occasion for you in that way.

And I want the caution though to be, because you know, usually they say like men will say they can do any job and take it and women will be like, I'm not qualified.

It's not that.

It's not that you're not qualified.

I think you need to be very comfortable with like who you are and your power, but also be enough of a leader to say, like, I can lead this, I can handle this, but I need someone to explain to me what this piece is versus like, I'm not qualified.

So maybe somebody else should take over.

That's not the point.

No, I'm going to do it.

Just help me get there.

Yeah.

When you are at the top of your industry, people obviously expect perfection.

How does that

and how did that impact your creative process?

That's interesting.

I think in the beginning, I was really, I mean, I was really lucky.

Like we were just, you know, it was hit after hit after hit.

And so that was great.

When we started moving into producing shows that other people wrote, it wasn't as simple as that.

You know what I mean?

Like our shows.

didn't necessarily all take off the way, you know, how to go with murder, which was created by Pete Nowock and we produced, took off.

It wasn't like that.

I was still really comfortable with, and I was so I have like this basketball player's arrogance.

I was always really comfortable with the shows that I created being fine and taking off and being good.

But you want the other shows that you're doing to do as well.

And you want to be able to give other people that opportunity.

So to me, it's really just, it was about like figuring out how to sustain that and get better at it and be supportive about it.

So every time something didn't work, we really tried, my producer partner Betsy and I, we really tried to learn like why and what was going on with that and how to make it better.

I want to know a a little bit more about your creative writing process.

Where do you typically start?

In terms of story?

Yeah.

Oh, that's true.

Or does, does story come first or does character come first?

Sometimes it's a line of dialogue.

Like sometimes I'll have like a line of dialogue in my head.

Like give me an example.

Oh, God.

It's like it's handled.

Like it's handled was in my head before I knew what the show really was.

You know, like it's those kinds of things for scandal.

So sometimes it's that.

Sometimes, and you know yes i'll met somebody i'll have an idea in an area but you can say like i want to write a medical show and that's 15 000 different kinds of shows for sure so it's what makes this the specific show that you're writing so sometimes it's a line of dialogue sometimes it's a character for me there was something about

the intern life of like meredith gray and those guys being brand new at what they were doing and also being women in a field that was dominated by men that felt really interesting to me.

And I remember like what sealed the show for me was I met a medical resident who told told me that it's really hard to shave your legs in the bathrooms that they have, the showers that they have at the hospital.

And for some reason, that like made a whole picture in my head of like what a woman's life was like trying to be a surgeon and trying to have a personal life at the same time.

Oh, it's so true.

And you, oh my God, the scenes that you.

were able to capture of the women getting ready for a date and they're like, Christina's throwing her hair up and she's putting on her bra and she's like, I'm going out.

And then it's like, get back in the office.

And you're like, oh, shit.

Like, it was so messy, but clearly so accurate.

Yeah.

It's really interesting.

And right now, currently in your life, where do you pull creative inspiration from?

Oh my gosh.

You know, it's interesting.

Like I was saying to somebody the other night, like literally, I think just last night, like I'm in like a build phase, which happens.

I'm either in a phase where like I'm in the middle of a story and I'm writing it and then I almost can't talk to anybody.

Or I've just finished and we're about to shoot something.

I'm like in that super excited phase.

I'm in the build phase where I'm like gathering ideas.

Like I have ideas for maybe, I think, three different shows in my head right now.

And that's generally how it always is that I'm very excited about.

And I'm juggling, trying to figure out which one's going to like emerge to the surface as the, as the forefront one, the first, you know, the one to do first.

And are you writing all these things down?

Are they just concepts in your head right now?

So my creative process is, is different than a lot of people's, which is I never, like,

I almost never put pen to paper.

until I'm ready to write the draft.

What if you forget?

No, it's a lot of thinking.

It's a lot of thinking.

And then like, I'll spend a year thinking about something and then like two days writing a script.

Versus some people I know who like the script is the thing that they're working on all the way through.

For me, it's the world and the idea and the getting like all the pieces in place mentally first.

So you,

I was about to say, because writer's block, you don't have writer's block.

I don't believe in writer's block.

Because you don't really write until you're, you don't believe in writer's block.

Talk to me about that.

I feel like people talk about writer's block and it's one of those things that the minute you talk about it, it becomes real, right?

Like I have writer's block and now it's like a thing.

I'm like, no, there are days when you have stuff to say and there are days when you don't.

You know what I mean?

And maybe there are days when you're working out problems and you're not, but I don't believe in like writer's block.

Like you just can't write at all.

Right.

It's like you're clearly stuck on something that you're trying to figure out.

But you, girl, you're a year in.

You've got this like math equation in your head.

And then two days you're writing the whole thing.

Yeah.

And then like when I am stuck, I was always lucky because I would be working on Graze.

And if I got stuck on Greys, I would turn around and I'd go work on scandal.

So like the engine, the machine, the muscle was always being exercised at all times.

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In 2018, you were TV's highest paid showrunner.

What did that milestone mean to you?

You know, it was, it was a crazy moment because I remember, like, I was giving, supposed to be giving the speech for L women in Hollywood.

And I remember my lawyer, like, telling me that fact and me thinking, like, I should talk about that in my speech because Ellen had sort of said she was the highest paid woman in television drama and people kind of gave it was a little bit of backlash about that

and i remember thinking like i should talk about this in my speech and being really nervous like calling my lawyer like

10 to 15 times being like is this true like is this really true like are you sure it's true and him being like what is wrong with you And me being like, I just, I don't know that I believe it.

And then it was really hard for me to say it when I gave the speech.

But I remember feeling like that was a time when I worked really hard to settle myself in this idea that, okay, now I have, I have real power.

So if I have this real power, what am I going to do with it?

That's so

relatable.

Cause I was going to say crazy.

I'm like, no, it's not.

It's like you sitting there being like, are you sure?

No, come on.

And it's like, Shonda, I don't know how many times to break it to you.

And yet you couldn't.

Was it because you couldn't believe it?

Was it imposter syndrome?

Was it you don't want to look like a fool on stage owning something that what do you think it was?

I don't feel like it was imposter syndrome.

It's that,

you know what happens when all your dreams come true?

Absolutely nothing.

Like everything stays the same, right?

So you're still you.

Like I'm still the person clipping coupons and like thinking like maybe I should get that on sale and maybe I shouldn't like.

get too comfortable like with these shows.

I'm still that same person, but now suddenly I'm surrounded by these different trappings.

It's about getting used to the trappings of power and what that means and being able to utilize them.

I really do think that's what it is.

It's a good point.

It's, you just said it the best

I've ever heard anyone say it because

all the time people are like, oh my God, have you had your I made it moment?

And I'm like,

sure, but not really.

It's more just like the living of it.

I know I feel like I've made what my dream was, but I'm not complacent now and just like

because nothing changed.

I'm still Alex from pennsylvania that like loves to create and i'm a nerd with that and whatever it be still looking at new ideas and getting excited about things like it's not the trappings change you don't change i feel like sometimes success makes you more of who you were and that might be about it you know people who are anxious get more anxious people who are not so nice get less nice but people

makes you more of who you are It's a good point because when you're grinding so hard for your dream, you're going to tackle your way to get there and you're going to run through the door and you're going to do whatever.

And then once you've really got it, you're like, okay, I did it.

Here I am.

You're present.

You're sitting.

You're like, now I do feel probably the most connected to that little girl.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

It's interesting.

Okay, this is something we've kind of been talking about, which I love.

You once said, and this quote is so good, men brag and women hide.

Yes.

Why do you think women have such a hard time celebrating their accomplishments?

It's really interesting to be in a room full of women or to sit and talk to other women and even giving compliments.

Women can't take compliments.

I've worked really hard at that, but it's really, women cannot take compliments.

Someone will say to you, like, you're the most powerful podcaster out there right now.

And look at the look on your face.

Like, you don't want to go like, thank you.

Right.

You, you think to yourself, like, oh, well, you know, right?

And you try to make it okay for other people because you're afraid that if like who you are, if you, if you like yourself too much, people are going to think ill of you, which is such, so interesting.

It's like almost like

the fear is like, will people think I'm arrogant?

Right.

It's who does she think she is?

And it's like, well, who do you think you are?

You should think you're the most powerful woman in podcasting right now.

That's not, that's not an insult.

That's not a problem.

That's not something to be ashamed of.

You're like, yeah, I accomplished that.

Like, that's okay.

Women have a really hard time with it.

Men do not.

Men who have accomplished almost nothing are still bragging about stuff that isn't even an accomplishment.

It's true.

It happens all the time.

It's so true.

It's like, and I think it's hard because

I don't know if you've experienced this, but I feel like a lot of times, which makes me sad, is like when one woman is having such success, and if she leans in at all, at least now with the day and age of social media, like there is a lot of tearing down from other women of like,

that's not true, blah, blah, blah.

And I don't know if it's because

there is an insecurity and there's projection going on, whatever it be, but it's like, it sucks.

I have this theory that inherently, and this is,

I'm scared.

I feel like women have been raised to really hate themselves.

We've been raised to sort of be like, you need to be nicer.

You need to be quieter.

You need to be sweeter.

You need to be, you need to adjust yourself so that other people will want to accept you.

So women have been raised to like hate themselves.

And it's really hard to watch another woman.

be completely comfortable in that skin.

You're like, well, wait a minute, that that doesn't feel right.

And I don't think it's malicious.

And I don't think that anybody said to themselves, we're gonna like put our foot on the neck of girls.

But I do think women have been raised in a world in which society has all of these rules that make you feel like,

how dare you?

You know?

It's so true.

It's so true.

It's like, it's uncomfortable for other women to see another woman confident because what it really is is, fuck, I wanna get there.

Well, you're uncomfortable.

And it's uncomfortable to be that confident woman.

Like it really is.

Like you have to really reach a place where you're like, I really don't care what other people think.

What is a time in your career where you downplayed your own success to try to make people feel comfortable?

Oh, wow.

I will say that I am really lucky.

Like I was raised in a family where like the girl, the four girls, we kind of got in trouble if we were ever like, oh, no, not me, poor me.

My mother would be like, what's wrong with you?

My dad would be like, what are you thinking?

So we were raised really in a way that I find a lot of women weren't.

However, I still found myself being in a room thinking like, well, I want everybody to like me.

Like I don't want anybody to think that like I think that I think so well of myself.

Like it's interesting.

Like you, it's hard to take a compliment.

Yeah, I can imagine for you, it's like you're, you are having such success.

You're so talented.

You're now running these rooms.

People, like you said, there's hundreds of people in a room waiting for your commands of like, all right, we're about to make the show.

We're doing this thing.

And then, again, a man probably wouldn't feel this way with you.

You're like, okay, wait, but I don't want to come off like I'm too bossy or this.

Like, I do want people to look at me and like me.

And there's just a double standard for women.

So we have to kind of placate the

power dynamics and the boundaries and all the things to make people be like, no, but she's really nice.

Like that, you know, if you walked in, you're like, this is what we're doing today.

Everyone needs to be on the top of their game and let's get this thing done.

What a bitch.

What a bitch.

Well, okay, so I watched your documentary and you literally say in there, like, I don't want anybody to think I'm, I'm a being a bitch.

If I say, and I'm like,

let's all just be the bitch.

Like, be the bitch, because the reality of it is, is everybody's going to have their opinion of you anyway.

And if you are not being cruel to other people, and if you are like, I'm always like, how do I make this a warm, welcoming place for other women to feel like they can come up and be somebody?

Then in order for that to happen, I have to make a way in this world in order for those opportunities to exist.

So be the bitch.

Be the bitch because if there's 10 people in the room, what I've found recently as I'm leaning into not being an actual bitch, but being more of that, like I'm just going to say it how it is because why can my husband say the same thing and everyone's like, I'm excited to work for him?

And if I say it, people are like, oh my God, is she in a bad mood today?

Me mom like, I just said to do your job, right?

Right.

What I found though is a lot of people in the room will actually start to respect you more.

And there's going to be a couple of the stragglers that are like, she's being a bitch because it's projection and they're taking something wrong, whatever it is.

But people like someone that is direct and honest and gives you the role that you need to do your job with.

Or people respond to that because it's not this amorphous thing where they're trying to figure out what you meant.

And here's my thing.

Never be cruel, never be mean, never be rude, never belittle, but be direct and be like strong about what you're saying and mean it.

Like there's no reason to apologize for being good at your job.

For me, that's like a big deal.

Shonda, this is like the pep talk we needed today.

The girls are literally taking notes, watching this.

They're at work right now, being like, I'm going to go get that raise for my boss, or I'm going to go advocate for myself.

And that I think is like so healthy to remind women, like, you can speak up for yourself, and that does not make you a bad person at all.

Okay, let's talk about your book.

Okay.

The year of yes, 10th anniversary.

First of all, congratulations.

That's really incredible.

Can you tell anyone who's not familiar, like, how did this initially come to be?

Okay, so I, in 2014, I decided that I was going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scared me.

Why?

And if, well, if you knew me before 2014, I was wildly shy, like to the point of like full anxiety attack, like couldn't speak in public.

I was very closed off and shut down.

I went almost nowhere.

I did almost nothing.

I had this incredible success of these television shows.

My characters were living these like amazing, full, like rich, exciting lives.

And I was not.

I was at home, like living in my imagination.

And so one day one of my sisters said to me, you never say yes to anything.

Like I'd been given all these invitations and I would say no.

So I was like, okay, I'm going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scares me.

And I did.

And I ended up writing a memoir about it called Year of Yes.

And so now 10 years later,

I sort of went back and looked and said, like, how has like, how has my life changed?

Cause it's completely different than it was 10 years ago.

Like I'm such a different person.

I think I almost might be unrecognizable in every way.

And so I really wanted to look at it 10 years later to see like, who am I now?

What have my yeses been lately?

What has like fallen off?

What's better?

What's worse?

You know, how does this keep going?

It's really inspiring because I think that's a very relatable thing.

Like you're, you're the one holding yourself back from experiencing these beautiful big moments that you could enjoy.

And yet you're almost, you're hurting yourself by being your worst enemy.

How, though, once you got through this year of yes, obviously, that's so fun, but for someone listening, like what kept you going with the yes, though?

Because I'm assuming a lot of moments were uncomfortable.

Yeah, talk to me about like a yes you said that you were uncomfortable to, and then you left, and you're like, Oh, that actually wasn't as bad.

I mean, it was almost everything.

Like, I, the first thing I did was give a commencement speech.

That was my first yes.

I was going to give a commencement speech for 10 to 10,000 people.

So, there are yeses like that that are just like moments, but then there was like the yes that I said to my body.

Like, I was like, I want to say like 150 pounds heavier when I wrote this book.

And it was because I had been like, my, my, my body is just a container for my brain.

I'm not thinking of myself in this physical way at all.

I had sort of shut myself off from the world.

And I was like, okay, now I need to say yes to like taking care of myself.

I feel terrible all the time.

So it was like about that.

It was saying yes to difficult conversations.

Like I was a person who like would run from any difficult conversation as far as I possibly could.

And now I'm a person who's like, let's just plow right in.

Cause like the road to peace is like through there.

And it's so

real to be like, once you start practicing something, it's going to first feel so uncomfortable.

And you're going to be like, I don't want to do this.

And then slowly the second time you do it again, it gets a little easier.

And then again, and again.

And so I think that's great advice for young women listening is like.

The hardest part is just jumping into it.

The very act of doing the thing that you're afraid of undoes the fear.

And that is such a freeing feeling to realize.

Like the worst thing that can happen is, is that it doesn't go well, but then it's already happened and that's the worst thing.

So you'll handle it.

Yeah, and you'll handle it.

In your book, you say unhappy people do not like it when a fellow unhappy person becomes happy.

Yes.

How did your relationship start to change once you did this?

Yes.

That was really profound because you don't expect to shed people.

You know what I mean?

I was not a person who ever thought like, like I'm very loyal, like the people in my life are are the people in my life.

I did not expect to shed people.

But when you begin to fundamentally change who you are, your idea of yourself, like how you want to live, anything, even when you begin to have the whisper of the idea that like, I might be valuable, you know what I mean?

Like even that little thought,

people who are not used to that feeling, people who are comfortable with you and the role that you were in have a really hard time with it.

And a lot of times, you know, there's an adjustment in general, even for the people who are happy for you, but the people who like, they're very invested in the world that they're in, right?

We're all invested in like the world sucks, you know, this is like this.

I'll never get this.

I'm bitter about this.

Let's talk trash about these people.

When you stop being able to do that with them, it's really threatening and really upsetting.

And I understand it because I'd watched it happen to other people I know.

And I've been like, fuck them.

How dare they?

But when you start to change, you realize how

many people are not interested in you having a different definition of yourself.

Yeah,

I feel like that's very relatable.

And I feel like it can also then become for a period of time a little alienating, right?

Yes, because you've created your ecosystem, you have your habits, like you said, whether you're like gossiping or talking shit or you're not feeling good about yourself.

Someone close to me recently just went through this where she started to have a more positive outlook and a friend was basically couldn't be there for her when she just had a successful moment.

And you're like, we, but we've been, we've both been down and I finally got something.

Aren't you excited?

And it's like, no, no I want you to stay down with me I have friends who were amazing when things were terrible Terrible like they were right there and I was like these people will be with me the rest of my life when things were not terrible Those people were pissed and it was it was startling to discover that and also really really painful, you know, because you're losing people that you love and I was not intending to lose a single person from my life So the idea that people would fall away of their own accord because they weren't interested or because you finally had to say like this isn't working.

It's really hard to break up with a friend.

It's excruciating, but also I'm sure once you got a little bit farther away from it, then in hindsight, you start to realize the ecosystem in which you were living.

And you're like, oh, that's how toxic it was.

And I was so immersed in it that I was incapable of fully recognizing like how negative it was.

You never can recognize.

You're like down in the muck and like, that's all you know.

And that feels really comfortable.

And like to peek your head up out of that is dangerous almost.

And I think just for people listening, if you're in that situation where you're like, my friends can never be happy for me and I do want to kind of change, whether it's jobs or relationships, whatever it be, in the moment, as isolating as it can feel, I feel like what we're talking about here is like the

short-term discomfort, long-term, you are going to be happier with yourself that although you lost friends, there are new people in your life that you can meet that can meet you where you're at, which is in a positive capacity and not so negative.

And give your original friends who are having a a hard time, give them some grace for a while because you are becoming a whole different person that they don't know.

So, for some friends, I like, you know, there was a space and time when they were like, What the hell's happening?

But then our friendships became even stronger.

But there were some people who just like, it wasn't, they weren't ready.

They weren't ready for me to be different and they weren't ready to look at the world in a different way.

Something I also loved about your book was how you wrote that sometimes saying yes to opportunities means saying yes to failures.

Yes.

What is the biggest lesson that you've learned from your failures throughout your career?

I mean, I always try to look at failures not as like total failures, but like lessons learned in a great way.

But I also feel like there's nothing wrong with like letting a failure happen if it's a failure.

Like

the shame that people seem to want to feel, like they don't want to, you know, I don't want anybody to know that this happened or I don't want to ever tell that story.

Like the failures that you have are the failures that you had.

And they basically are part of what made me where I am right now.

So I try to embrace them and know that like I really can like live through them.

Like they happened.

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One thing that you have been clear, you're not interested in saying yes to is the idea of marriage.

When did you first realize this?

And I don't know if that's true anymore.

Isn't that interesting?

I don't know if that's true anymore.

Talk to me.

So I've never been a person who thought about getting married.

Like I was a person who, like, I always knew I was going to be a mom.

Like, I've always known that.

Like, that was always part of my plan.

Marriage never really entered into it.

And my parents have like this amazing, romantic, beautiful marriage.

They've been married forever.

And so, like, I have this great example of what a great marriage is.

But I was always like, meh, yeah.

I really value being independent.

I really value like being on my own.

I, I.

tried the whole getting engaged thing and like almost killed myself like trying to pretend that I was somebody who wanted to get married.

And it just wasn't me.

Like I was like, this is not, like, I feel suffocated.

I think that is an extremely relatable feeling that maybe people don't talk about.

I remember I had shared that where I grew up, I had a similar situation with the

image of my parents and what they represented.

I was like, I've never seen two people so good and as a partnership and in love.

So what's wrong with me that I don't crave that at all?

And I had zero interest in getting married.

I was like, I am an independent.

I'm all these things, which I think is beautiful to know within yourself and not put pressure on.

Yeah.

But then what changed?

So now you're kind of like,

well, so now I feel like, you know, I have these girls who are much older, you know, like my youngest daughter is 12 at this point, you know?

So

what really got me the first time was, so you get engaged and everybody is so happy for you.

People were more happy for me that I had a man who wanted to marry me than they were about my career, my shows, my children, like combined.

Stop.

Combined.

I was like, I have a freaking Peabody Award.

Nobody cared.

They're like, you have a man who wants to marry you.

You're like, you guys, no.

It felt really threatening.

I think about this now.

It felt really threatening to my whole identity that like, that's where people were going to see my value.

And now, like, I think I'm, that's because I wasn't necessarily comfortable in my own skin, probably.

I very much know who I am now.

Like, I know who I am.

I'm very comfortable in my skin.

I'm very comfortable with like what I've accomplished, what I haven't accomplished, like who I am as a woman.

Like now I'm completely comfortable with the idea that like I could meet somebody and spend the rest of my life with somebody and marry them because I'm not worried that like who I am is going to be taken away from me or that I'm going to have to let like compromise pieces of of my career or what I've accomplished or what I want it to be.

That's also beautiful because what a concept that women can change their minds.

Yes.

And we should be let them.

And it's okay if one moment you say you you don't want something and now you could potentially want it.

Yeah.

And I'm not saying like, oh, I want to get married, but I'm, but I'm not, I'm no longer saying like, I never want to get married.

Right.

Like, I'm open.

Have you struggled in previous relationships with men being intimidated by your success?

Yes.

That's like, that's the whole thing.

That's the whole thing.

That's the name of the game.

That's the whole game.

It is.

And then it's really hard to stay.

One, obviously, like

the surface level is just like being attracted to someone that's like intimidated by your success.

But the the deeper thing, again, is the independence being threatened, but also

what's the point of having a partner in your life that's not an actual partner that's not rooting for you and wanting you to succeed.

And you're downplaying yourself.

You're coming home and you're not sharing certain things because you're like, oh, he'll feel insecure.

But also, like, you're actively in a space where they're not in the headspace of feeling good about themselves.

So you feel like you're actively diminishing somebody else.

Like, I'm not interested in actively making a man feel diminished by who I am and by who he is.

And then by you then also being aware of that, you're also diminishing yourself.

You're making yourself smaller.

It's that Christina Yang thing of like letting go of pieces of yourself so that somebody else can feel good about who they are.

It all comes back to Christina.

It does, doesn't it?

It really does.

One of the quotes from your book was, the wedding was right there.

The amazing guy was right there.

The happy was right there.

And I didn't want it.

Once you broke off this engagement, how did you feel?

The terrible thing is, and I say this in the book, I felt so good.

I felt so relieved.

I felt like this huge weight had been lifted from me, which is awful because

A, another person gets hurt, but B, you know, it was a what, it should have been a wonderful thing.

But what tells you that it wasn't was how free I felt and how, like, I was like, I think I was really afraid of what this was going to be on top of everything else.

Like, I was approached this with some level of like dread of what I was going to be letting go of and giving up to be in this relationship.

And then you felt free once you ended it.

I felt so good.

Let's talk about your family.

Yes.

You have three daughters.

Yes.

What is a typical night at home like for you guys?

Oh, wow.

So I have a 23-year-old who lives in London.

So she's living her best London life right now.

I'm so jealous.

I know.

Do you visit her often or no?

I do because, you know, that's where Bridgeton is.

So I get to go over.

Love, which is wonderful.

But for me, like a typical night at home, it's like me and my daughters we have dinner we hang out we go and watch let the dogs run around um do they watch your shows um

no my 23 year old i don't think has ever watched any of my shows not even grey's because she was no she watched tidy girl with murder because i didn't make that

my second daughter who's 13 um

i know i feel like everyone comes here and is like you have no idea how much your kids will humble you i don't have kids and i'm like you're just not impressed at all they don't give a crap they're not like impressed so my 13 year old she started watching Gray's Anatomy and I was like, oh my God, this is happening.

And I had been like, you can't watch it.

My mom was like, yes, she can.

So I was like, your grandma said you can watch it.

She watched like eight or nine episodes.

And then Christina had nectopic pregnancy.

And she was like furious.

She was like, she was like, I didn't understand this was coming.

I didn't see this was coming.

I think this is too old for me.

And she turned it off.

Not her being able to walk down, knock on the door and be like, hey, mom, fuck is this?

Why did you write this?

And you're like, listen, sweetie.

And she's like, I'm done with you.

She was like, no, no.

And then my, my youngest daughter, you know, because the entry age for Grey's, like, it's like 11 or 12 years old.

Like, I know when young kids have started watching Grey's, because I can see their faces look at me differently.

Like, they know who I am.

So my youngest daughter, she and her little seventh grade friends have, and this is so insulting, but also so great, have made a pact that none of them are ever going to watch Grey's Anatomy because nobody wants to know what Beckett's mother has to say about life, love, or anything else.

Shonda.

Oh my God.

I know.

Oh, they literally have a pact.

Like, none of us are going to watch it.

And I was like, fine, like, you little haters, but it's also fantastic.

Like, I feel like my children's self-esteem is like clearly intact when they are not depressed.

They're good.

That's so funny because I remember when I interviewed Ellen, her daughter came because she was a fan of the show.

Yes.

And Stella was like, I was like, so did you watch, you know, and she goes, yeah.

But I'll be honest, I kind of stopped after McDreamy was gone.

And I was like, okay, okay.

And Ellen's literally like, my life, like kids will just be like, let me humble you right now, mom.

Harper would always be like, so do you think that that's like a great show?

Like, and I'd be like,

my favorite thing about Harper was when she was younger, she would be like, you know, Julie Pleck, who does the vampire.

She'd be like, Julie Pleck is amazing, mom.

Like Julie Pleck is ever.

And I was like, so basically like, my whole life is if only my daughter thought about me the way she thinks about Julie Pleck.

You know what you need to do?

You need to to go under an alias for the first season of something and be like, did you hear about this new show?

Your daughters sit down.

They're like, this is the best show ever.

And then you're like,

that was me.

That was me.

That's amazing.

What is something that your daughters have taught you?

Oh, wow.

Incredible amounts of patience.

Incredible amounts of patience.

I think that that is very true.

But also like, you meet people where they are for real.

Like they do not come out and then you mold them.

They really come out as the people they are.

And your job is to make them more of that person, a better version of that person.

And that is really hard as a mom and as a perfectionist and as a person who like is very type A.

Like it's really about like, okay, so she's this kind of kid.

How do I like embrace that and then help her be that kind of kid?

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

It's probably really good for you, right?

It's really good.

I need to embrace it's so freaking hard.

No one else could have done it to you.

Yeah.

But your children.

Exactly.

I think a lot of women will, I appreciate this conversation of like, you chose to start a family.

You didn't have a partner, obviously.

How did you decide?

Three kids?

Okay, this is interesting because I've talked to other women about this.

I, you know, 9-11 happened and I was like, this was really like a turning point for me.

I was like, the world's going to end and I will have never have done the, like, the one thing I wanted to do, which is to have a kid.

So I became a mom at the same time that Gray's Anatomy came out.

And that was like, as a working mother, that was like the hardest, most devastating, most amazing situation to be in the middle of my daughter grew up thinking I worked in a hospital um she did because that's where she was all the time and so then like 10 years on I thought like okay so I've had one daughter and 37 actors but she doesn't have any siblings and so then I was it was middle of scandal and I was like I'm gonna have two more kids and that was a plan like I was like if I'm gonna have more kids I'm not gonna have kids who are like another only you know in that sense of like 10 year gap I'm gonna have two kids in close succession to one another so that they have each other it's beautiful.

It is, except they're so different from each other, it doesn't even matter.

Like they're so different from one another.

The plan actually backfired because like it's very, very different.

They're all in their own worlds.

You, I know you, you've kind of said that your family is very traditional

and they had a lot of questions about this to you.

What conversations did you need to have with them about this decision?

You know what's wonderful is like my, my parents are very get on board, but like they had a lot of questions about adoption.

They had a lot of questions about like what that was going to mean and how that was going to be.

Although in my family, it sort of never mattered like how you came into the family.

You're just part of the family.

Sergacy brought up a lot of questions for my family.

Like that just felt, I mean,

I don't think I've, to this day, I still haven't had the sperm donor conversation with my father.

Do you know what I mean?

Like those conversations.

But like that stuff was a big deal.

Like, how is this going to happen?

I think that was a big deal.

But for me, what's amazing is the minute there's a baby, my whole family is like

in love and embrace.

Like our family is really great in that way.

Like we're a very big, loud, boisterous family who like everybody is super embraced.

I think it's beautiful to everyone has such a different journey to building whatever their version of a family is.

Some people don't want kids.

Some people want kids.

Some people are doing it different ways.

And again, I think as women, we can feel shame from other people if we're not doing it the way that traditionally we've been taught that we should do it.

And it's such a great statement that you just made of like, and then once it happens, it's like, look how beautiful this is.

For a little while, I think I felt like I had to justify it.

You know what I mean?

Like, I felt like I had to

sort of, I don't even know.

I felt like I had to justify it for people.

And that's ridiculous.

Like, at a certain, I was like, however, I decide, you know, it's like nobody puts in the paper, like, like, so-and-so had a baby via C-section.

Nobody says like, this is their C-sectioned child.

So like, how my children came into my family is like not the issue.

Right.

And none of your business.

Yeah.

It's a really good point.

Again, but it goes back to this is a complete different comparison, but we were talking about earlier.

It's like the same thing was happening on the set of scandal or grays, but when it's a different person doing the act,

there's a different light and fixation on it.

And so people can see it differently.

Right, exactly.

And it's like, guys, worry about your own damn selves.

In a speech, you said, whenever you see me somewhere succeeding in one area of my life, that almost certainly means that I am failing in another.

How have you come to terms with knowing that you can only do so much at once?

I think the relief was realizing that you can only do so much at once.

I mean, I think that the struggle and the way we're told, like, lean in or you can have it all or all these things, it's such bullshit.

But we're so conditioned to feel like.

Like, I'm supposed to be fully present at work all the time and that I'm supposed to be like the most amazing mom all the time.

It does not work that way.

Like I am a mother because that is who I am.

You know, sometimes mother is not what I do.

Sometimes it's just who I am.

And my job is amazing, but there are times when I'm going to have to like say like, okay, I let that slide because my kids needed me.

And that is okay.

I think when we tell ourselves it's not okay and we put all this pressure on ourselves to like, either you're perfect in one or you're perfect in the other, or you're trying to be perfect in both.

That's when you fail because you're never, that's a zero sum game.

It's never going to happen.

you're never going to feel amazing at both it's always going to be a little bit you know shaky so let it be shaky yeah it's helpful to hear that because i i agree i think everyone's like you know you can't do it all but then you kind of are so like no i'm gonna try and it's like sometimes you really do have to put your eggs in one basket and really double down and focus on that.

And it doesn't almost mean that you're not, you're like abandoning the other things in your life.

You're just recognizing right now, the priority is right here.

And I'm still going to show up in this area, but I'm not going to be 100%.

And that's okay.

It's not that you can't do it all.

It's that you can't do it all at once.

So for me, I'm always like, okay, so maybe sometimes this is going to be like over here, down a little bit more, and this is going to be more up, but I'm still doing it all in a way that makes me feel less guilty and like embracing the idea that you are failing at something else.

People used to be like, how can you say that?

I'm like, it made me feel so much better to think like, okay, I'm failing at work right now.

That's okay.

To give myself that permission made it so much easier.

Have you felt like you're failing at work ever in your life?

Oh my God, all the time.

Okay, that makes me feel better.

That makes me feel better.

You've revolutionized TV in so many ways and you have paved the way for other women in this field and in other fields.

What do you ultimately hope your legacy is?

Oh, wow.

I always really try to avoid the concept of legacy.

I mean, I hope that there is space for women to feel like

there are still trails to be blazed, but that the blazing of the trails doesn't mean that you're blazing them alone anymore.

Because I think being like a woman who's done something that necessarily hadn't been done by other people,

it's a lonely road.

You're like making that path happen a lot of the time.

And so I feel like I want women to feel like there's all this to be accomplished, but that not necessarily like hopefully I've left a space where there's enough room that more women are doing it.

Does that make sense?

It absolutely makes sense.

Outside of your career, what do you wish more people knew about about you?

Oh my God.

Right now I'm just obsessed with golf, so it's really weird.

What?

I know, right?

I have a whole chapter in the book about it.

Wait, what?

I've become like this weird, obsessed golfer.

I love this for you.

I had never had a hobby.

I mean, like, literally, like, I had hobbies, then I had my shows, then I didn't have any hobbies for like 20 years.

And so I moved to Connecticut and I took up a hobby.

You're hitting the country clubs.

You're swinging.

You're golfing.

You're getting birdies.

Wait, this is amazing.

Cause it does kind of, I am not a good golfer, but I've like gone a couple times.

I love things that I actually cannot think of other things while I'm doing it.

I can't think of other things.

It's something that I'm definitely, it's really interesting to be somebody who's like really good at a thing and then do something that you're terrible at.

And like, it's all about making yourself good at it.

I also like the fact that, and like, I sort of revel in this idea that like a country club is not a space that was like made for me.

Nobody was thinking like this black lady is going to be at a country club.

It's not a thing.

So I kind of love this idea of like occupying these spaces that necessarily weren't made for us.

And like we're like sort of taking them over.

Like I have these women I golf with and we're like loud and we're like rowdy and we're not like lady golfers.

We're like, you know, we're women who golf.

Oh, and it's a lot of fun.

I can't imagine being on a golf cart and turning to be like, Zashonda Rhymes, you're vibing.

You've got the speakers going.

Exactly.

And we're having a really good time doing it.

That's incredible.

But it also allows me for the first time to think of myself as like, and my sister laughs at this every time, but like an athlete.

Like I'm like, I'm an athlete.

There's an athlete inside me.

It's right.

It's coming out.

Oh, I love this for you.

Okay, looking to the future, last question.

What is something you're really excited about?

Oh, wow.

I have to, and this is going to be vague and it's not, I don't mean it to be vague.

I'm really excited about whatever's next because I am in this percolation phase where I'm trying to figure out what my next story is.

And it's been a while since I've told like a brand new fresh story.

So I'm really excited for that moment.

Like I'm really excited to like dig back in, roll my sleeves up and like get back into a show.

I am beyond excited.

I'm jealous that I can't like go in that brain of yours.

I'm like staring at your forehead.

I'm like, what is she thinking?

What's going on in there?

It's so exciting.

You're so talented.

You've been in our homes for now, like decades.

And I just feel like this next era for you.

I'm very excited to see what you come up with because I know we're all going to love it.

But if anything, I'm now like, you've done so much that I can't wait to see what avenue you choose in terms of theme and story and characters.

Like there's still so much to be done.

And I'm happy that you're going to come back to us.

Thank you.

Love it.

Shonda Rhimes, this was.

Everything I could have imagined and more.

I feel so stimulated from this conversation.

I feel motivated.

So thank you for giving me your time.

I know you're very busy.

And it was an honor to interview you.

This was fantastic.

This was a great conversation.

It was so fun.

And I understand, like, you're an amazing interviewer.

So truly, I've had some interviews.

This was amazing and really fun conversation and relaxed and lovely.

So thank you so much.

Thank you for coming.

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