Taylor Momsen: The Grinch, Gossip Girl, & Grief

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Speaker 1 What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Speaker 1 Taylor Mompson, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 2 Hello, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 I am so excited to finally sit down with you. I feel like you've been someone that I've wanted to have on and it's been a long time coming.
So it feels right that you're here. Thank you.

Speaker 1 How are you doing?

Speaker 2 I'm doing excellent.

Speaker 1 Are you in LA just for promo and everything?

Speaker 2 Promo and rock and roll hall of fame and it's a busy, it's a busy week.

Speaker 1 Okay, we I read somewhere that you are a night owl and you kind of go to bed late. Were you up late last night?

Speaker 2 I tried to go to bed. Well, I flew in.
I actually flew in from Seattle yesterday. Okay.
I feel like I haven't slept in.

Speaker 2 At least three weeks. Perfect.
So I'm kind of running on fumes. I'm hitting that point.

Speaker 2 So I tried to go to bed earlier, which was like midnight, which was very early for me.

Speaker 1 Okay, is this just like all musicians, though?

Speaker 1 Because every single musician I've interviewed, one, wants a late star and two, it's like they don't, they literally like start their nights at like 1 a.m.

Speaker 2 I think my brain doesn't wake up until like 7. Okay.
So 7 p.m. 7 p.m.

Speaker 2 So like anything before 7 o'clock, I can show up, I can do it, but it's my brain just isn't at its highest functioning quality until like 7.

Speaker 1 But do you think that's because you're playing shows and writing music and you're most creative at night?

Speaker 2 I think definitely a part of it is the routine of used to being up late because of touring and things.

Speaker 2 So you get on that schedule and then it's just hard to switch a schedule. But I've always found, even when I was younger and I didn't have that, if I try to go to bed early,

Speaker 2 I can't, even if I fall asleep, I'm more tired the next day than if I just stay up and then sleep less.

Speaker 2 It's a weird thing, but I definitely find creative, like my creative brain starts to work at night.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, I'm happy that you're awake and you're here.

Speaker 2 This is fabulous.

Speaker 1 Made it.

Speaker 1 Okay, you are the lead singer of the Pretty Reckless band. Can we talk through about that you have a Christmas EP that just came out?

Speaker 1 And I feel like just from the vibes, I'm like, this is a departure from what your band is usually doing. Did you have to convince everyone to do this? And like, was it primarily your idea?

Speaker 2 It was my idea. Well, let me rephrase that.
It was actually, it was the fans' idea. So this is something that it's Taylor Momson's Pretty Reckless Christmas.
And I'm doing the song from the Grinch.

Speaker 2 Where are you, Christmas? And that was something that when I first formed The Pretty Reckless when I was 14,

Speaker 2 every year people put the connection together that I was Cindy Luhu and the Grinch. And every year it got more and more exponential, and more and more people, you know, put that together.

Speaker 2 And it was always kind of a funny thing that, you know, you smile at and you go, ha, that's cute.

Speaker 2 And every year they'd go do a rock version of Where Are You Christmas? And for, I don't know, 15 years, I went, no way, like in zero worlds, is this something I would ever do?

Speaker 2 Fast forward to

Speaker 1 it's COVID.

Speaker 2 We've gone through a lot of loss. Like it's a very hard time in the Pretty Reckless world and in my life.
And there's nothing to do because we're in lockdown.

Speaker 2 And so the only thing to do is to rehearse with the band because we're all cool to be together. And so we just spent a lot of time in the rehearsal studio.
The holidays were coming up.

Speaker 2 We're starting to see these comments again of do a rock version of Werry Christmas.

Speaker 2 And we kind of all turned, I kind of turned to everyone and went, should we just try this? Like, should we just see what happens here?

Speaker 2 And so we put together an arrangement, which was actually kind of tricky because

Speaker 2 it's not really a full song. It's a minute long.
And so to make it a three and a half minute song, whatever, we worked that out. We go into the rehearsal space and we jam through it once.

Speaker 2 And I kid you not, Alex, by the end of the song. These four depressed, miserable people had giant grins on our faces.
And we all kind of looked at each other and went, was that just great?

Speaker 2 Like, I think that there was something magic that just happened here. Are we doing this now? We're doing this.
So that's where it started.

Speaker 2 And then I decided in order to being me and being very thorough with everything, in order to have it, I needed it to have context and I needed it to equate to me now and, you know, all the things that there's, there's actually some substance to what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 So I wrote an entire original Christmas record around it. And of course you did.
And of course I did.

Speaker 1 But the fact that it came also from like the fans relentlessly being like, come on, like bring our girl Cindy Luhu back. Like, come on.

Speaker 1 And I, which I want to get into today because I know there's a lot to discuss in terms of like your early career. And I feel like I've had a lot of conversations with

Speaker 1 actresses who then go into different roles in their career of just like making a pivot as a woman is so difficult. And so sometimes you have to abandon.

Speaker 1 who you were known for and really, really almost like kind of turn your back on that to be taken seriously in another department.

Speaker 1 And so the fact that you are now sitting here and like even being able to smile and say Cindy Luhu with a smile in an interview, like I'm sure if I interviewed you maybe 10 years ago, you would be like, I don't even want to talk about that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's definitely an element of that. So there's growth.
Oh, there's tons of growth. And I think also, you know, I'd be remiss to not mention the loss that we went through.

Speaker 2 And it was a hard time for me. And I think coming out of that grief and getting to the other side of it, it forced me to kind of reflect on my my life in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 And Grinch, like I went back to the very beginning, and Grinch to me was always great. Like I don't have any bad memories with Grinch.
Everything about it was awesome. Like it was super fun.

Speaker 2 I was super young.

Speaker 2 But there were so many, it was such an incredible project to be a part of that was so upper echelon at such a young age to see, you know, actors of that caliber and of Jim Carrey and Molly Shannon, et cetera, et cetera, Ron Howard.

Speaker 2 And then it was also my first experience in a recording studio.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, when I was, when the movie came out and stuff and I was in school, like you're teased relentlessly for it, you're Grinch girl. I moved around a lot.

Speaker 2 Like all of that kind of stuff was hard for me as a kid.

Speaker 2 But when I got older and looking back on it, I go, no, all of those things that happened and all of those experiences of making this film was wonderful. And so why am I shunning this?

Speaker 2 And like, I am Cindy Luhu. Like, I am that girl.
Like, I'm still that girl.

Speaker 1 I think we're a similar age. Are you 31? 32.
Okay. I'm 31.
And

Speaker 1 I want to go back to the beginning because I know you started your career so young, but even when we're going to talk about the Grinch, I was thinking about that where I read that you had been bullied for this role.

Speaker 1 And I'm sitting there and I'm like, what? Like, what are you, what? What? Like, that is the most like iconic, incredible, this movie has lived forever. I watch it every single year.

Speaker 1 Like, you were adorable and perfect and all the things. But then it's like, oh, no, but you're also just like a normal kid then going to school and kids are fucking assholes.

Speaker 2 Because whether it was

Speaker 1 jealousy or they actually just thought you were a quote unquote freak, they're like, you're the Grinch girl. And you're like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 So at that age, it doesn't matter that this is like this incredible movie. It matters what your peers are saying.

Speaker 1 And if they're saying you're not cool for that, then you digest that to be like, I'm not cool for this.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. And I didn't grow up in a Hollywood household or anything.
Like I was born in St. Louis.
Okay, wait.

Speaker 1 Take me back. You get into the industry from what I understand around like two years old.

Speaker 1 How do your parents even explain to you like why they got you in so young?

Speaker 2 I was just talking about this the other day, and I think I need to have another conversation with my parents because I don't even fully know the story. I know they put me into modeling.

Speaker 2 I was signed by Ford Modeling Agency when I was two, and I was very chatty and

Speaker 2 I don't know, a buncular. And they went, my modeling agency said, does she have an acting agent? And my parents went, no.
And they went, okay, well, she should. So go over to this agency.

Speaker 2 They sent me on my first audition and I booked it that day. It was for shake and bake and I was three.
So that it was a national commercial.

Speaker 2 And so that was kind of the kicking off point where I think they went, oh, we can do something with this for real. And so that was, that was the start of it.

Speaker 1 So you start as a model.

Speaker 2 Started as a kid model.

Speaker 1 And do you have any like core memories or no?

Speaker 2 You were just so young. Not really.
Like, I only remember the photos because I've seen them, you know. Okay.

Speaker 1 So then you get the Grinch at six.

Speaker 2 That's also blurry. It's five, six.
Five, six, somewhere in there. Okay.

Speaker 1 Five, six, you star as Cindy Lou who.

Speaker 1 Talk to me about like the audition. Do you remember the audition at all?

Speaker 2 I remember pieces of the audition because it was a really long process. That's why the timeline is a little blurry.

Speaker 2 So I think I started auditioning for it when I was five and it came out when I was seven. So I had birthdays in between there, obviously.

Speaker 2 But the audition process was long. I remember going in

Speaker 2 lots of rounds of it. And I remember the screen testing the most because that's where it was down to me and two other girls.
And we got to try on wigs.

Speaker 2 And that's where they were starting to kind of put together what Cindy's going to look like.

Speaker 2 And so I went from a neon pink wig to a green wig to a yellow wig to this kind of outfit to this kind of outfit.

Speaker 2 And that process was really, really fun for me as a kid because you get to play dress up and it's awesome.

Speaker 2 And so so it's pieces of it.

Speaker 2 It's hard starting so young, it's always hard to remember what you remember and what you remember because people have told you the stories and you've turned them into memories.

Speaker 2 Also, I can watch my entire life. So it's how much do you remember? How much are you watching it and

Speaker 2 remembering from that, you know?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because it's like similar, very different, but similar just for a kid in your childhood, you get told things by your parents.

Speaker 2 And then you're like, oh, cool.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And you see a picture.
And then you can kind of also like fakely come up with what you think you remember from that. Exactly.
But we're so fucking young and like five years old.

Speaker 1 Cause I was thinking, you're saying it was so fun to do these, try on these wigs, but do you remember any part of you in any capacity being like intimidated by being a part of something so big?

Speaker 1 Or you didn't even understand?

Speaker 2 I didn't understand that. And I, I, I never remember being nervous or anything like that.
It was, uh, it was fun. It was like, that's what I'm saying.
Like Grinch is like, is so positive for me.

Speaker 2 Like that, my memories of that are so awesome. okay you had to go to who school sorry just indulge yeah because like we're getting no no no

Speaker 2 talking about fun who school was amazing do you remember like the wildest things that you got to be a part of during that time well the entire who school was i think it was like seven months long of all the people and all the acrobats training to to learn to act and and create this world that ron saw in his head of this whimsical over-the-top whoville um so they had so walking into that, it was a big,

Speaker 2 you know, like, what are they called? Like hangers, the big sets on Universal Lot.

Speaker 2 And it was just empty, but they had giant, you know, life-size balls that acrobats are walking on and people doing backflips.

Speaker 2 And so you walked into this world and you're just going, what is this kid playground? And I did all my own stunts. So I had to learn how to, I did stunt training.

Speaker 1 Okay, wait, but you didn't have to do the prosthetics, right?

Speaker 2 I didn't have to do the prosthetics. They, Rick Baker molded my face.
And after he casted me and stuff, I think everyone just kind of collectively decided that that's too much to put a kid through

Speaker 2 to have to go into prosthetics every day. So they wrote it into the script that I haven't grown into my nose yet.

Speaker 1 No, honestly, adorable. I also was thinking about that because I think I saw an article somewhere where it was like Jim Carrey would sit in like eight and a half hours.
of prosthetics.

Speaker 2 Prosthetics. And it killed him.

Speaker 2 Like he, from what I remember, it was brutal insane he went i think he he feel free jim feel free to tell me if i'm wrong but if i remember correctly i think he went through actual torture training like with a real navy seal guy to learn how to deal with it because it he's he's so covered i mean the suit the and the contacts i remember there was a time when because we had all that fake snow coming down and snow got underneath his contact and it you know killed him like so painful no no no i i genuinely can't imagine.

Speaker 1 But then obviously, like, he brought it to life in such a beautiful way. Do you remember just like what it was like having him as your co-star? Cause he's obviously so fucking talented.

Speaker 1 It's like crazy.

Speaker 2 Insane. To see that level of talent at such a young age, I think really had a big impact on me.

Speaker 2 Just to see someone who takes their craft that seriously. And I get asked a lot if he scared me, you know, because everyone, I think a lot of kids were scared of the Grinch.
He's never scary to me.

Speaker 2 To me, he was always gym and he was always in makeup.

Speaker 2 He was very protective of me. He was very kind, super funny, super animated, like absolutely awesome.

Speaker 2 But the funny thing is, I never knew what Jim Carrey looked like because I never saw him because he was there way early doing the prosthetics. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 So you're like,

Speaker 1 Jim Carrey is the Grinch.

Speaker 2 Jim Carrey is the Grinch. So I didn't know who Jim was until the premiere.
And someone had to point him out to me and go, that's Jim. And I went, oh, Jim.

Speaker 1 That's such a mindpuck. You're like, wait a second.
I know the voice, but you're, oh, wow.

Speaker 1 Okay. So

Speaker 1 we're talking about this like beautiful moment in your life. And then, like, you referenced earlier, then you go back to school.

Speaker 1 So you're like experiencing the most incredible, like, kids would dream of this, and you're on these sets and you're doing all the, and then you go back to school. And are you living in St.
Louis?

Speaker 2 Living in St. Louis.
Um, my dad works there, and I was going to Catholic school. Oh, and oh, yeah, that's a whole thing.
Oh, oh, how'd that go? Oh, wonderful. Don't you know? Weren't the nuns awesome?

Speaker 1 They were so loving and understanding.

Speaker 2 So loving and understanding. I loved when I got really tall and my skirt got too short and I got punished for it.

Speaker 1 That was super fun.

Speaker 2 Stop.

Speaker 1 They're like literally measuring me.

Speaker 2 Did you do the knee? Did you have to do it? Did you do the kneel? Yes. Where they make you kneel and measure from your hip down?

Speaker 1 Taylor, I like black it out because I was like, no, please don't make me. And I agree with you.
Some girls got away if they were shorter with like the skirts could be a little shorter.

Speaker 1 But if you were tall, then I just outgrew it.

Speaker 2 It's not my fault. I went through a growth spurt, but nope, you're in trouble.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you're going through all this. Talk to me, though, about being a kid.
And like, did you have friends?

Speaker 2 Were you able to make friends? I, I always, I've always had like a couple close friends in every stage of my life, um, one or two.

Speaker 2 But making, I was,

Speaker 2 I've gone through so many phases of myself. Like, I think the, the weirdest thing that people probably don't know about me is that I'm actually really shy

Speaker 2 and no one guesses that. And so I have this external version of myself that is the performer and the professional and all of that.

Speaker 2 But that's where like songwriting became really important to me because that's where I felt like I could be. me.
And I started writing when I was really little. So like around Grunch, like five.

Speaker 1 But I think that makes sense because now being more involved in the industry, like I think a lot of actors, not everyone, like goes through these weird moments where it's like, I'm reading the lines that someone else wrote.

Speaker 1 I'm doing what the director is telling me to do. And so like there, there's not a lot of autonomy that you've got going on in these situations.

Speaker 1 So like to have something as an outlet that like you can genuinely have for yourself, I think a lot of actors try to find that for themselves because we as consumers think that these actors are

Speaker 1 like they somehow maybe wrote the lines or they did these things.

Speaker 1 And then a lot of actors are like, no, I'm like just doing what everyone's telling me to do yeah and that from a young age of like you're starting so young of reading these lines being these characters everyone knows you as these characters you're like wait wait who is taylor as a human being outside of that well i think i always had a really strong sense of self i always knew that and

Speaker 2 you know

Speaker 2 that's why grinch is weird but once you get into teen grinch is specific and then once you get into teenage years with gossip girl and things that's where i think my identity crisis started to come into play, where, because that was a whole different world.

Speaker 2 Grinch is a film that came out that it clearly lives in an imagination, in an imagination

Speaker 2 world.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't walk out of my house and have a Cindy Luhu wig on. So it's, so there was a, there was a clear line there for me, I think, where this is plain dress up and this is Taylor.

Speaker 2 And when it got into Gossip Girl, and suddenly that was a celebrity show and a tabloid show and

Speaker 2 New York and paparazzi and suddenly you're being photographed as a character by paparazzi and put into the tabloids as Taylor and it's going, I'm going, that's not what I was wearing. That's not me.

Speaker 2 That's a character. And I'm getting hate from things I did on the show that I have nothing to do with.
And so I think, and I was young, I was 14. So I think that that

Speaker 2 started to bother me. And that's where I started to realize like I'm not good at being someone else's tool.
Like Like I need to be my own person.

Speaker 1 Taylor, you saying 14?

Speaker 2 14? 13? 13 on the 14th.

Speaker 1 13, 14. That's like right when people are going into high school.

Speaker 2 And even if you're not an actress, we're all fucked in the head of that. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Cause we're like, who am I? And some people are going through puberty faster than others. And some people have, you know, are figuring out their sexual identity.

Speaker 1 And some people feel, and you're just like, what? Who am I? I am a disaster.

Speaker 1 So to also be doing it on the world stage and playing a character that can somewhat seem like you, but it's not you, it's just, it's a lot.

Speaker 2 It was a mind fuck.

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Speaker 1 So you're living in St. Louis, you get more jobs and then you get gossip girl at 13 years old.

Speaker 2 Well, we were missing a move. So I lived in St.
Louis till I was 10 and then my dad switched jobs and we moved to Maryland. So now I'm in middle school in Maryland and I have

Speaker 2 just started my first band,

Speaker 2 like an actual garage band with kids from my school. I finally found my little click, which was kind of the first time in my life I felt that, and it was exciting to me.

Speaker 2 And I was still the weird art kid who, you know, wore combat boots and leather jackets to school. And this was Potomac, Maryland.
So this is very preppy. And

Speaker 2 you know, all the girls had bows in their hair and Uggs and matching juicy couture sweatsuits. And so I was very always just off in schools.

Speaker 2 So I found my, you know, found my crowd, found the art crowd, started my first band, and

Speaker 2 was doing really well. Like I was, I was well adjusted to this, to the school and this group of friends.
And that's when gossip girl came around.

Speaker 2 And that's when my, I said, they go, you're going to move to New York. You're going to audition for this.
And you would have to move to New York for it.

Speaker 2 No, no, no. I don't want to do this anymore.
I love what I'm, I love where I'm at.

Speaker 2 And 12 at the time.

Speaker 2 And my agent, my manager, they all flew to my house to convince me to audition for this, going, this is going to be a great opportunity. And you'll get to move to New York.
And it's fashion-based.

Speaker 2 You love fashion and you love New York and blah, blah, blah. So long story short, ended up going to New York to audition for it.
Where are your parents at this point? Oh, they're there.

Speaker 2 They're encouraging the,

Speaker 2 I mean, they're encouraging this choice. And I don't think it was with any kind of malice or anything like that.
I think they're just looking at it going, this is a huge opportunity.

Speaker 2 And just because you're having a good time in school right now, it doesn't mean you pass up on something that's this massive.

Speaker 1 Did you at all? Because I know I've talked to

Speaker 1 child actors that, like, there is like an obvious

Speaker 1 financial pressure of just like you're a working child. And I know it's like an awkward topic, so like share what you're comfortable, but like, was that a factor at all in this decision?

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 it wasn't spoken about to me,

Speaker 2 you know, and I'm still not even a teenager yet. So the, I never realized I was making money.

Speaker 2 Let's put it that way. Yeah.
So that kind of, this was always, this is fun and you like this. And there was an element of,

Speaker 2 you know, you do well, you get praise. You don't do well, you don't.
And so

Speaker 2 it.

Speaker 2 It's, it's, it's a lot to unpack, I think, probably as a, as an adult looking back on it.

Speaker 2 And I think a lot of my life now I spend not really thinking about it and going, because I'm, I'm one that very much does not live with regret or wishing I could change things or whatever.

Speaker 2 That's just not my vibe. Um, because I think it's kind of pointless.
So, so I'm very like, I'm always looking forward and I reflect on things in order to

Speaker 2 write about them and process them and that kind of stuff. But

Speaker 2 it is what it is

Speaker 2 at this point. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Again, I think like

Speaker 1 it's there is a

Speaker 1 natural like empathy that I think like the world now just has for child actors because I think of just like the honest truth that just has come out for a lot of these people that like went through this.

Speaker 1 And like when you did get into gossip girl, did you then understand that you were making money? Or like at what point do you think you were like, wait, you guys, this is also like mine?

Speaker 2 It was gossip girl and

Speaker 2 it was, well, I left,

Speaker 2 I moved out really young.

Speaker 2 So it was around that time that I started to realize like suddenly I was becoming in charge of my own finances and that kind of stuff. And so that's when I kind of put everything together.
But

Speaker 2 it was Gossip Girl that made me, Gossip Girl is a weird one because like in one way it was, you know, it was awesome.

Speaker 2 And in the other way, I

Speaker 2 really didn't want to be there. So it was this, it was this, it was me starting to come into my own as a person and having this tug is where music is the thing because I was starting to do that.

Speaker 2 I was always writing songs. I was always doing these things behind the scenes.
But now to be so universally famous for something that isn't me

Speaker 2 was really challenging for me. And so I felt like I immediately became very defensive.
I was defensive in interviews. I was very also young, so arrogant and kind of an asshole.

Speaker 2 And, you know, figuring out in front of everyone.

Speaker 2 but figuring it out in front of everyone and being judged you know very harshly for it um while trying to push back against that going i don't want this i want this over here and i don't know how to get to this place it's almost like you couldn't stop it once the train started moving and as we know how big gossip girl got it no one expected that yeah okay take me to your agents decide okay you got to do this you eventually say yes you go to new york you read for the part like what the part.

Speaker 1 What was your first impression of Jenny Humphrey?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, I kind of related to the character. I never really auditioned for things that I didn't understand.

Speaker 2 And feeling like an outcast in a, you know, in a world that you don't fit in was kind of, that's who I was. It wasn't,

Speaker 2 I wasn't from Brooklyn and all that stuff, but it was

Speaker 2 a general concept of a character. I identified with her.

Speaker 1 I feel like now I was about to say this, I'm like, oh, this was kind of a theme lightly in The Grinch for you too, But like, you're 14 on set and everyone else is like bare minimum mid-20s.

Speaker 1 Like you are beyond the youngest person really on this set. How did that dynamic impact you?

Speaker 2 Well, I grew up real fast. Let's put it that way.
But no, I mean, everyone was cool. It was, I still had Connor, who played Eric.

Speaker 2 He's still one of my best friends. Love that guy.

Speaker 1 Well, that's nice because you also had like a lot of scenes with him.

Speaker 2 A lot of scenes with him. And he kind of, when I first moved to New York, he took me under his wing.
I actually ended up up going to his high school.

Speaker 2 And so he introduced me to his friend group and, you know, that kind of whole world, which was only about a year. I ended up graduating early because it

Speaker 2 freshmen and trying to go to a, it had to be a performing arts high school because that's the only way that I could leave and work and they would give you your work to leave.

Speaker 2 And I was really adamant about not wanting to be homeschooled because I wanted to make friends.

Speaker 2 But the reality is the work schedule was too much and I wasn't going there anyway. So I ended up leaving that homeschooling and then graduating at 16.
So you're 16 and 15, 16.

Speaker 1 15, you're living in New York City, you're no longer going to high school.

Speaker 1 What are you doing when you're not filming?

Speaker 2 I was working in the studio. I was writing and working in the studio and then getting into trouble, you know, but typical trouble.

Speaker 1 Typical as like you would do in New York City as a young girl that's just like, I, I have all of this and no one's going to tell me now.

Speaker 2 And all my friends were older and I never once got ID'd.

Speaker 2 So it was that's also par with celebrity you know suddenly all those kind of all those kinds of doors are just open to you and it's fine did you go out with the cast at all or no you had a separate um i didn't go out with them too much but i would hang out at their apartments and stuff like chase and ed lived together at the time and when i had chase on and he told me about the rooftop parties

Speaker 2 okay so you frequented the rooftop oh yeah we lived like two blocks from each other so you were having time with your life oh yeah so i would spend a lot of time at their apartment and it was very boys' club, which was very fitting to me.

Speaker 2 I've always fit in with boys' clubs.

Speaker 1 I remember he came on, what was it? He was like, oh, I remember one time we had the party and like Lindsay Lohan showed up and we were like, act cool, act cool. This is cool.
This is cool.

Speaker 1 This is cool. Okay.
So you were there. Oh, yeah.
So this is, that's like the, although still you're young, but that's kind of the fun side of like, okay, you're getting to become an adult.

Speaker 1 You're doing it in a pretty fast-paced way.

Speaker 1 But when I did interview Chase and Penn, and this is kind of what you had lightly alluded to and lightly talked about earlier in this interview, is the sudden and intense fame

Speaker 1 and the explosion of the show that no one could have anticipated. No one could have.

Speaker 1 Just talk to me about it. Like from like when it first starts, like how does it impact you off the bat?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, the first.

Speaker 2 The first impact is the paparazzi. And that's something that I hadn't dealt with before.
And in New York, there's no escaping it.

Speaker 2 At least at that time. Now I still live in New York and now I know, now there's like kind of rules to it.
You know where to go, you know where to go, you know where not to go.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you know, if you're in Soho, be prepared to be photographed. It's fair game.
Yes. Um, but they were coming to my house.
They were going to my sister's school.

Speaker 2 They were, they were everywhere. And that kind of, that feeling of kind of being watched and stalked is just, it's intimidating.

Speaker 2 I guess the, it's, it's unnerving.

Speaker 1 And there's also like no one that has the right answer of what to do other than like just deal with it.

Speaker 2 Just deal with it.

Speaker 1 And all of your castmates were going through it. But again, you were at such a young age that I can only imagine you're like trying to grow up and handle it.

Speaker 1 But also like, did your parents move to the city?

Speaker 2 Mom, my mom and me and my sister did. Okay.
My dad was still working in Maryland. Okay.

Speaker 1 Was there ever a time that you can like recall a memory of like when you were like, no, no, no, this is like really getting too much?

Speaker 2 I think the reality is I handled it really well.

Speaker 2 I think I'm pretty thick-skinned at the end of the day. I've lived a very strange life, and I've learned to kind of let things roll off my back.
But there was,

Speaker 2 it was less the paparazzi in person that went this is too much and more

Speaker 2 what would come out afterwards from the photos and that that would turn.

Speaker 2 And that really started once I started the band, like the negative press, where there was this kind of hatred of what I was doing from the world and people being like, here's, okay, here's an example.

Speaker 2 I'm on stage. I'm 16.
I'm playing a show. I'm wearing a little dress.
I have underwear on, but a photographer goes and shoots up my skirt.

Speaker 2 He kneels down, shoots up my dress, and my tampon string had slipped out. And so my tampon string was sticking out of my underwear.
Perez Hilton puts that on the homepage of Perez Hilton.

Speaker 2 You can see like the side of my pussy and everything. Like it's like a very, it's still on the internet.
Have fun looking it up. But it's A, I'm underage

Speaker 2 And the, the violation, and it's, and his headline, I don't remember what it said, but the headline was very negative of like slut. Like, look what, like, look how trashy Taylor is kind of thing.

Speaker 2 And that kind of concept, like, it's so invasive. And I laugh about it now.
And I laughed about it probably a week later because there's nothing you can do about it. But

Speaker 2 that's the kind of press that we're talking about where people were very, or I was in a taxi cab and Paparazzi jumped in the cab with me, and it's blinding lights.

Speaker 2 And I go like this to cover my face, and my assistant and friend at the time covers my face, and it's on the homepage of whatever tabloid site going, Taylor Mompson, fucked up leaving club, because my eyes are kind of rolling back from the they pick the one shot that looks bad and try to spin some kind of negative story around it.

Speaker 2 So I was getting a lot of negative press. Looking back, I probably should have hired a publicist, but I didn't know better.

Speaker 2 So a publicist or a therapist or a bodyguard or Jesus fuckers or or something. There's no right answer, though.

Speaker 1 Dude, I, okay, you saying, though, that you're like, I would probably laugh about it a week later. Did you ever have breakdowns over this kind of invasion of privacy and absolute like exploitation?

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 probably internally. I never showed them.
And again, that's, that's where songwriting came into play. Like, that's where the first album, everything turns around here.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't, cause I don't, it's not all negative. It's, it's more that I, I learned to take the hard things in my life from any aspect of it, you know, big or small, and turn it into music.

Speaker 2 And that's how I've coped with life. Like music is my therapy.
And it was finding the right, finding the right partners musically for me was everything. And so when I did,

Speaker 2 it changed my life. And I suddenly then had a support system in my band and in Kato, our producer, who supported me for me and what I wanted to do and my vision.

Speaker 2 And they had no ulterior motive or like there was nothing from the outside. It was just pure support of like, you do what you want to do.
And that was huge.

Speaker 1 I can't imagine like what you're saying of like.

Speaker 1 that young girl in Maryland loving more than anything making music and being like, I'm really good at this. And I'm like finding, I'm finding my voice and all of it.

Speaker 1 Then kind of getting thrust into this spotlight, like you said, through a a career that you actually weren't really that passionate about or excited about?

Speaker 2 No. And I was coming to, that's the thing.
Like, when I was little, I liked it. Like, I didn't, but I didn't know better.
That was just, I started at two. So it was something I just always did.

Speaker 2 So there was no choice in the matter. It wasn't forced upon me.
I wasn't like, you know, going, I throwing tantrums, going, I don't want to do this. And my parents are going, you have to.

Speaker 2 It wasn't that. But I wasn't making my own decisions.
I didn't, I wasn't seeing past it.

Speaker 2 And when I hit 12, 13, 14 with gossip girl and this whole other world is thrown on you that you didn't ask for, like fame.

Speaker 2 Fame is this thing that you got to kick over your shoulder and it's something you deal with that comes with it. But when you're not prepared for it, which I don't think anyone ever is,

Speaker 2 but when it's something that I'm just going to work and doing what I've always done. And now suddenly there's this whole other aspect to it that you have to learn to navigate.

Speaker 1 Again, and the difference between like being a woman and a man in this industry is like astronomically different because it really is.

Speaker 1 The photo that you just described being on the front page of someone's website that is like, so that

Speaker 1 should literally be illegal of how they're violating your body, especially. not even especially child porn.
I don't know how that's still like your underage.

Speaker 2 Underage or not.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Complete violation.

Speaker 1 I was looking up and I just started to see like a lot of the tabloids also that they were referring to sometimes as this wild child or this party girl.

Speaker 1 And you're giving a little bit this behind the scenes of like, no, that's literally just like a picture that you're in my fucking cab violating.

Speaker 2 You're in my cab.

Speaker 2 First of all, I was never really a wild child. I had, I was working all the time.

Speaker 2 Like I would go to set on Gossip Girl because I started making the first record while I was still on the show because I formed the band at 14.

Speaker 2 So I would go to work at four in the morning on Gossip Girl, work till six at whatever time we rapped, go straight to the studio and work in the studio from whatever that time was till 2 a.m.

Speaker 2 Come back, sleep for maybe an hour, and then do it all again. So, I was working all the time.

Speaker 2 So, this whole like wild child persona, it was just the makeup and my fashion choices, which were a bit outrageous, but very me.

Speaker 2 Like, I was just being authentic. And so, I think

Speaker 2 some of that was curated. And also, I was

Speaker 2 my image, my image. My image was a little out there.
And I was very,

Speaker 2 I mean, now I call it pretentious. I look back on it and I go, oh, it's like cringy how pretentious some of the things I would say was and how I'd speak and carry myself.

Speaker 2 But that's who I was at the time. And I think that some of that pretension came across extra because I was being defensive because I was, I felt like I constantly had to defend.

Speaker 2 who I was as a person every time someone asked me a question instead of just answering it kind of honestly, you know?

Speaker 1 Yes. I think there was like, again, you're so young.
There's like a level of like

Speaker 1 internally, you were trying to protect yourself. And so like, I get, I was fighting.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I was more fighting going,

Speaker 2 this is me. You're getting it wrong.
So I felt like I really had to fight to explain who I was. When now as an adult, you just be who you are and relax into it.

Speaker 1 Yes. But I also think I was thinking about this is like, I've now interviewed a good amount of people who have been a part of a franchise that was all consuming.
And

Speaker 1 the fandom level is just like, you, you will. It's intense.
And you'll never be able to describe it, right?

Speaker 1 Like, and they're, and it's once in sometimes generations, like there's these very specific shows that just take the world by storm.

Speaker 1 And I think the fandom, we are watching these romanticized shows that are very curated. And there's directors and there's writers rooms and these are really good shows

Speaker 1 but then we are blurring the lines between jenny humphrey is not taylor mompson and taylor mompson is not jenny humphrey but people don't give a and so they want you to be yes jenny humphrey and you're like guys yes i'm literally i am from st.

Speaker 1 louis yes i'm not from brooklyn yes and so can you talk to me a little bit about like having this hard time between separating yourself from Jenny Humphrey and Taylor and like, how the fuck did you mentally do that?

Speaker 2 Well, I quit. Yeah.
That's

Speaker 2 getting there.

Speaker 1 Like, bitch, I left.

Speaker 2 I left. I went, I can't do this.

Speaker 2 It's, it was a struggle there for, for years. But I, I, what I did was I, I treated it very much like a job, a professional.
I showed up. I did my job.
And then I went to the studio.

Speaker 2 Did you resent her

Speaker 1 like the character?

Speaker 2 I resented the,

Speaker 2 I didn't resent it. I don't know how to explain this.

Speaker 2 When I left the show and I was no longer on it and I was just touring with the band and just putting out music and I quit everything else and that's all I was doing.

Speaker 2 And every question and every interview was still about Gossip Girl and Jenny Humphrey and will you ever go back to acting and blah blah blah and the list of questions on and on and on.

Speaker 2 The first year, you get it. The second year, you kind of laugh at it.
By like

Speaker 2 as it kept going, I was going, oh, I'm never going to outlive this character. And that's a, that's a weird thing to come to grips with.
So you just kind of, I ignored it.

Speaker 1 You live your life. And I feel like from what we're talking about, it's like you're going to the studio, you're recording after Gossip Girl.

Speaker 1 But then, like you said, people really didn't want to hear about you as a musician because they're like, well, they didn't take it seriously, which in their defense, I wouldn't have either.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 talk about that if i was if you brought to me a a 14 year old fronted rock band with a chick who was on a soap opera i would roll my eyes at it and go yeah i don't give two fucks about whatever you're trying to show me right now

Speaker 2 so of course they did like yes not because i picked the hardest path i i didn't i i trying to gain credibility in a world that is impossible to gain credibility coming from the circumstances that I came from.

Speaker 2 A, rock and roll, hard as hell. B, a woman in rock and roll, hard as hell.

Speaker 1 And then three, teenage soap star

Speaker 1 wants to be taken serious.

Speaker 2 So it was just, I had everything stacked against me

Speaker 2 in that way. But, and so there's a lot of, this is fake and she's a poser and this is

Speaker 2 who so-and-so writes her songs and blah, blah, blah. None of which was true.
I write everything myself. I co-produce the records.
Like it is, there is no,

Speaker 2 there's no one but me and the band involved in what we do. And it's, it's, it's incredibly personal and it's incredible.
And I take it incredibly seriously.

Speaker 2 And I realized very quickly that the only way to overcome that kind of hate or whatever is to A, shut it out and just do it.

Speaker 1 Keep going. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, you just do it. You keep going.
You tour, we toured the world relentlessly. I kept writing songs.
We kept putting out records.

Speaker 2 And you have to do it the old school way.

Speaker 1 You're like, I'm not going anywhere. Consistency just keeps high.
Here we go. Again, another song.

Speaker 2 I can't, because you can't keep explaining yourself. There's no point in explaining yourself.
So I got tired of that and gave up on it.

Speaker 2 And then that's when things actually started to get easier, is when I stopped being so defensive and just was.

Speaker 1 Well, isn't that fucking beautiful? But it sounds, it sounds so straightforward, but it's so fucking hard. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 And again, because we're talking, like, just reminding everyone again, 14, 15, 16 years old.

Speaker 1 Like most people are having like their fucking sweet 16s in Alabama and being like, mom, can I get a patted bra?

Speaker 1 And you're trying to pivot as a young woman in an industry where most of the time we are only accepted as one thing. And it's like, good luck.
Okay. We're getting, now we're going to get there.

Speaker 1 Cause now I want to finish off with, you said, bitch, I fucking quit. Like, I quit.
Let's talk about it. How did you, when, how early on did you actually know I want to get the fuck out of here?

Speaker 2 It was definitely, when did I actually leave? Was it season three?

Speaker 2 I never watched the show, so my timeline's all just messed up.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you leave

Speaker 2 season four. Season four.
Season four. So season one's a whirlwind.
It was probably around season two. Because whenever I started the band, like when I met, I met Ben and Kato,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 it changed everything.

Speaker 1 Did you talk to them, though, about being on this show, being like, guys, I got to get out of here?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. You're like, guys.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Jail. Get me out.

Speaker 2 I knew I had to leave. But at the same time, leaving a career that is so prosperous and

Speaker 1 was not easy.

Speaker 2 It was an easy decision for me. Not, sorry, I shouldn't say not easy.
Not easy, not easy in the way of like to actually get out of a contract was not easy.

Speaker 1 Okay, talk to me.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 this was hard. So it was.
It started with, I don't want to do this anymore, but you're in a lock and key contract with CW, Warren Brothers, you know, all of that stuff.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it came down to, it was a very long battle of me arguing everyone and going, get me out of this. I can't do this anymore.
This is killing me.

Speaker 2 Like, I, I have something else I want to do with my life and it has nothing to do with this. And I, I can't be stuck here anymore.
Um,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 you know, you're called ungrateful and you're called like all, you know, all the things that come along with how dare you turn your back on something that's been so successful for you

Speaker 2 was hard. But it came down.
How do you feel about that, though, when people say that?

Speaker 2 Oh, I just want fuck you. You don't know what you're talking.
Like you're not in my shoes. So how dare you judge this?

Speaker 2 That's

Speaker 2 so I was very, very defensive.

Speaker 2 But it came down to they wouldn't let me out of the contract. The head of Warner Brothers said, fuck Taylor Momson.
No fucking way.

Speaker 2 I go to the writers and Stephanie Savage and Josh Schwartz, who I love, like genuinely genuinely love, and explained the situation.

Speaker 2 There's, you know, lots of talks about it, but they essentially went, well, we can't let you out of the contract because that's not our job, but we can write you out of the show.

Speaker 2 We understand what you want, you're what you're trying to do here. You're not going to be able to act because you're under contract.

Speaker 2 So you can't go take another job and join some other TV show or some other movie. And I'm like, that's perfectly fine.
I'm trying to get out. Like, it's not what I want to do anyway.
It's good.

Speaker 2 So I really have to credit them for doing that for me because they did not have to. And they wrote me out of the show so I could go on tour and be in a band.

Speaker 1 How did you

Speaker 1 share this with castmates? Were you close with anyone enough to share it or just kind of say peace out?

Speaker 2 Not really. I kind of just Irish dipped.
It just I wasn't in the script the next week.

Speaker 1 They're like, where's Taylor?

Speaker 2 I mean, they all knew I was making music. They all knew I had a band.
Like I would play them stuff. And because I was working on the first record while I was on the show.

Speaker 2 So I would come in and play songs and play music and you know that kind of stuff but i don't think anyone knew how serious i was at that stage do you remember your last day on set were you like counting down the hours

Speaker 2 i remember the well the last i actually do now that you bring it up my last scene was in the

Speaker 2 I think it might be the last, I never, again, I've never watched the show, but I think it might be the last scene you see Jenny in.

Speaker 2 And so it's me like on the train going to live with my mom or whatever the write-out story was. And I'm like leaning on the window.

Speaker 2 And I think that was the, that was the rap scene, which is very fitting.

Speaker 2 And then I came back for the very finale because just to,

Speaker 2 as, as a fan of television and a fan of the shows I love, like when you have the full cast together again, for a, like you want to full circle that and round it out.

Speaker 1 So you mentioned, which I do think is a great point, that like you walked away from a pretty stable job to create this you know full career out of this band that making it in the music industry is not easy as we've kind of talked about um was your family supportive of this decision

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 i mean i don't think they at this point i was so strong-headed and bulldozing my way into what I wanted in my life that I don't think anyone could have stopped me.

Speaker 2 How about it's not think I no one could have stopped me. And yes some people tried

Speaker 2 so i i think there was a level of they had to accept that this is what i was doing and either get on board or get out

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 dichotomy of this actress to then this musician and you talked about it a little bit of like people not taking it seriously in the very beginning.

Speaker 1 How did that affect though, just how you felt about your art? Because what you've been talking about this whole interview is like how to the core passionate you are about making music.

Speaker 1 And a lot of it you say in the beginning was just like, sometimes people weren't even hearing my music. This has been for some from a very young age, I've been writing.

Speaker 1 So at the beginning of your life, it's been really just for you as this outlet.

Speaker 1 But then as you're now trying to make a career out of it, and people are still like, oh, fucking Jenny Humphrey is trying to start a fucking band. Like, how the fuck did you?

Speaker 2 It was just like that, too. That's exactly.
That's the like, and quoted by Alex.

Speaker 1 Danny, fuck me humphreys.

Speaker 2 How fucking annoying.

Speaker 1 And how did you, I know you said you kind of put your head down, but like, were there moments where you were like, I'm never going to shake this?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. There was definitely feelings of that.

Speaker 1 Did you lean in any capacity, like persona-wise, heavily into certain aspects to try to really detract from the Jenny aura?

Speaker 2 Probably. Okay.

Speaker 2 Probably.

Speaker 2 Not so calculated. Thing you have to know about me, I really love comedy

Speaker 2 And I think everything's funny. And that's kind of how I get through life.
I laugh at everything. You got to be able to make light of it or

Speaker 2 it'll eat you. So, um,

Speaker 2 so anything that I could like, I really enjoyed shocking people because I thought it was funny. So I was 16, 15, 16.
And I was like, oh, I'm going to wear stripper shoes on stage.

Speaker 2 I'm going to put X's on my tits and flash them. I'm going to wear outfits from Hustler and be as outrageously like pornographic Lolita over the top because it freaks people out and it's super funny.

Speaker 2 Loved it. And so that became a part, but that's also who I was.
Like I enjoyed that. It wasn't, it wasn't calculated of like, if I do this, I'll get this reaction.
Totally.

Speaker 2 That's how I dressed in my everyday life. But once I started to see the reaction, I went, well, let's just, oh, you don't like my dark eye makeup? Let's make it a little darker.
Oh,

Speaker 1 my really tall heels are are bothering you let's make them loose sight and put money in them like you know it's that kind of so i think that that was definitely a fun but i had fun with it i feel like again some people don't deal with it on the world stage but that is relatable and like playing with your image and as women like outfits and makeup and everything to really like self-express and I love that you're saying like, I, yes, I, of course, understood what it was doing, but I was still enjoying myself.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Because half of it is like people can have social commentary on this, but guess what? You're now finally doing what you truly fucking love.

Speaker 2 And that's all that matters. And I was always my own stylist and my own everything.

Speaker 2 So like I went shopping and I put those things together and some of them are a little questionable when you look back.

Speaker 2 But like in general, that's that I was being the most authentic version of myself at that time.

Speaker 1 So what is the story behind the name The Pretty Reckless?

Speaker 2 Story behind the pretty reckless. Okay, so we formed the band.

Speaker 2 We now need a band name, which turns out band name is the hardest thing in the fucking world to come up with, especially in the internet age. Every band names taken or trademarked.

Speaker 2 So anything you think of, can't use that, can't use that, can't use that.

Speaker 2 Kato came up with The Reckless. And I went, I love it because I knew I wanted it to be a the

Speaker 2 because of the Beatles. And I wanted it to be like one word, not one of those long sentence band names, like something simple and whatever.
So he went, The Reckless, perfect. That's the name.

Speaker 2 We go to trademark it. There's an issue.
There's some band from the 70s called The Reckless. We can't get it.

Speaker 2 And my lawyer goes, well, just add a word, like add any word and people will abbreviate it, you know, like Led Zeppelin. People call it Zeppelin.

Speaker 2 And she goes, and once people abbreviate it, you'll have,

Speaker 2 you know, the trademark.

Speaker 2 it'll become an or whatever the loophole is that then now you can trademark that also

Speaker 2 and so we went okay what's the the pretty reckless better than moderately reckless. Like, sounds good.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Didn't really think of it much and then didn't notice that everyone, or didn't think ahead that everyone would abbreviate it to TBR,

Speaker 2 not the reckless.

Speaker 2 And hence the pretty reckless was born.

Speaker 2 But it, but I love it now. Like, at the end of the day, the music makes the band name not the other day around.
So it does. Now I'm fully the pretty reckless.
Like I am the pretty reckless.

Speaker 2 You are at this point. You are.
That's good.

Speaker 1 There is nothing that makes me happier than when I get a compliment from someone and they say, Alex,

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Speaker 1 You went on tour, obviously, with one of your favorite bands,

Speaker 1 Soundgarden. And can you just talk to me about

Speaker 1 how you were offered that opportunity and like what it meant to you at that time in your career?

Speaker 2 I have pillars of musicians that I look up to and tiers of musicians. And when we first formed the Pretty Reckless, my two pillars are the Beatles and Soundgarden,

Speaker 2 hands down.

Speaker 2 And, you know, they're my North stars. And

Speaker 2 they were for Ben and Kato also. And that was one of the first.
So we formed the Pretty Reckless over the love of those two bands. And ACDC and Pink Floyd and the Doors.

Speaker 2 And, you know, the list goes on and on. But Pink, but Soundgarden and the Beatles.
So to get the call,

Speaker 2 first of all, Soundgarden's been broken up forever. And so when their new record came out, they got back together.
I about died of excitement and happiness.

Speaker 2 And then to go forward and have, get the call that they are asking us to open for them was surreal and so validating and so exciting. And

Speaker 2 I cannot picture a moment in my life where I was more happy than that moment. Like that was the coolest thing to ever happen to me.
I was floored. I could not believe it.
And it was.

Speaker 2 And it was fantastic. Like, and this is obviously going somewhere sad, but it was the greatest experience.
And everything about it was phenomenal. The, I mean, they're incredible.

Speaker 2 Meeting them was incredible, getting to know them. And you always hear, like, you know, don't meet your heroes.

Speaker 2 And like, so there's a, there was a, I had a bit of nervousness around that of like, what if they aren't this thing I've built up in my head? Oh no, they're exactly what I built up in my head.

Speaker 2 They're kind, they're awesome, their musicality is off the charts. It's ridiculous.
Like their records speak to me on a level that no other band does.

Speaker 2 And it's like I feel like I feel like I knew them before I met them because I, and I think a lot of people with their favorite bands feel that way.

Speaker 2 Like they know they're, it feels like a family member is something that I've been listening to forever is a part of you. And so to have that become a reality was just a insane,

Speaker 2 insane experience. Not to mention they're like,

Speaker 2 it's kind of as credible as it can possibly get.

Speaker 2 And so to come from everything we just talked about and now be offered this tour, the acceptance that I felt from the rock community and from, and like them putting their stamp of approval on me and the band was just massive.

Speaker 2 Like it came with so many layers of exciting weight to get that call. It was just the greatest thing ever.
And I got,

Speaker 2 I fucking love them, Alex. I love them so fucking much.

Speaker 1 It's again, it's like, I think anyone that is in the world of art, like there, there are, like you just said, the pillars which you look up to, whether it's your director and you look up to some of the most iconic directors that you have in your brain that inspire and influence you in so many ways.

Speaker 1 Like you wouldn't be the pretty reckless in the exact way you are had you not had that influence from them.

Speaker 1 So it's like the passion that you have is understandable because it's had such an impact on you.

Speaker 2 And then obviously the yeah and then tragic it leads to it leads to tragedy

Speaker 1 um can you talk to me about

Speaker 1 the lead singer passes away during that tour

Speaker 2 yeah um

Speaker 2 well it was the last night of tour

Speaker 2 and we played the last show in detroit and we all said bye

Speaker 2 do this again sometime you know see you on the road. We all got on our tour buses, went to bed, and

Speaker 2 I was woken up the next morning really early because the news had been passed around the camp and I was dead asleep. And

Speaker 2 first of all, I'm not, as we've talked about, I'm not a morning person. So I think the like my brain takes a while to wake up.
So

Speaker 2 hearing the news that someone I just spoke to and hugged and talked to a couple hours ago is no longer here,

Speaker 2 I couldn't process it at first. Like I was, it was confused.
I was going, what are you saying to me right now?

Speaker 2 And that turned into sinking in, which turned into the biggest pit in my stomach of devastation and

Speaker 2 just the worst feeling in the world of like, I, I mean, I fell the fuck apart. I like fell onto the ground.
Um,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 that was kind of the start of my

Speaker 2 what we can call my dark period.

Speaker 2 Um, it was just, it was so shocking and so like everything about that experience for me was so traumatic

Speaker 2 that I still get shaky talking about it. Like it's something I try not to think about too much, but that

Speaker 2 is brutal. It's brutal.

Speaker 1 Beyond like words, because you're like, what we're talking about too is like some of the highest highs of your life and then immediately wrapped into the lowest lows of your life.

Speaker 2 Within like a two-hour period.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 about a year later, one of your other best friends passed away.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's Cato, who I've spoken about through Cato Gondwala. He produced all our records.
He's my best friend in the world.

Speaker 2 You know, we're inseparable, like talk every day kind of friend. And he was essentially the fifth member of the Pretty Reckless.
He just didn't tour with us.

Speaker 2 And we lost him in a motorcycle accident. And it was.

Speaker 2 As I've said before,

Speaker 2 that was the nail in the coffin for me. Like I was on a, after Chris, I was in the start of a downward spiral and we continued to tour.

Speaker 2 It quickly came to a place that I, like a realization that I was not in a place to be public. Like I needed some time with this.

Speaker 2 I had to disappear and go try to handle this grief that was fucking eating me.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the way that I've always dealt with hard things in life is to write about them, as I've said, and to turn it into music. And so I was finally starting to kind of come to grips with Chris.
Not well.

Speaker 2 Like, I was definitely not doing well, but I was going, we got to get out of this. Let's get in the studio.
Let's make some music. Like, let's push forward and do what we've always done in hard times.

Speaker 2 And we booked the studio. And as soon as that happened, I got the call that Kato had passed away in a motorcycle accident.
And

Speaker 2 it

Speaker 2 floored me. me so it was kind of it was a giant one-two punch and because they were not that far apart from each other and uh

Speaker 2 and i just went off the rails like i didn't i didn't handle that well to say the least like i got very heavy into you know substance abuse and this cloud of depression that i couldn't shake and so something that i was teetering with before

Speaker 2 really took on a life of its own where i essentially gave up. I gave up on life.
I went, everything I love is dead. What's the fucking point?

Speaker 1 When you were going through that period in your life, were you

Speaker 1 alone? Like, who did you have around you to keep you getting up every morning?

Speaker 2 I mean, it's the band. I mean, the band is my family,

Speaker 2 you know, Ben, Mark, and Jamie. But,

Speaker 2 but I did a very good job of isolating myself at that time period.

Speaker 2 And, you know, they reach out, they check in, they come over, we play, we, you know, whatever we did.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I,

Speaker 2 a lot of the time, I just show off my phone, you know, like I, I was kind of unreachable. Um,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 that was very calculated. I was very thought, like, I knew I wasn't in a good place.
And A, there's like shame that comes with that of you don't want to be seen.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 B, I also knew that I

Speaker 2 had kind of given up. Like I had to, like,

Speaker 2 like I had to make a very conscious choice at a point where I was either going to live or I was going to die.

Speaker 2 And I had to either stop everything I was doing and get my life together or this was going to kill me. And

Speaker 2 I luckily chose to move forward.

Speaker 2 But that was, it was. It was that serious, you know, like it wasn't a,

Speaker 2 I was in this hole of blackness that I didn't know how to get out of. And I think the bigger thing was that I was perfectly fine with that.

Speaker 2 Like I was perfectly fine kind of staying in that place and fading away into nothing. And

Speaker 2 that was fine with me. Like, and so it was, it took a long time

Speaker 2 to get to the other side of that. Right.

Speaker 1 Dude, grief is like so fucking terrifying because you sometimes it's just easier to sink into it.

Speaker 2 So much easier.

Speaker 1 Because you're actually actively having to climb out and then there's the guilt of like but they don't get to experience life anymore and so it's like your head can go to really clearly yes dark fucking places

Speaker 1 how did you begin to pull yourself out and like yes you had music but like

Speaker 2 well

Speaker 2 it's it's it it is though i like it sounds cliche even when i say it out loud it sounds like made up but

Speaker 2 the hard i mean one of the hardest things though was was dealing with all of this Like music's been my solace.

Speaker 2 It's always been the thing I can turn to, listening to records or whatever that makes you feel better.

Speaker 2 And after

Speaker 2 Chris and Cato, I didn't have that anymore. Everything I listened to made it worse.
Like I couldn't listen to Soundgarden anymore.

Speaker 2 Couldn't listen to the Beatles because we listened to the Beatles with Kato. Couldn't like couldn't listen to our own music because I made it with Kato.
Like everything.

Speaker 2 Every band had a memory attached to it. Every song had an emotion that I couldn't handle.
And so suddenly music was not in my life anymore.

Speaker 2 And that was the scariest thing for me because I suddenly, this thing that's my identity that has gotten me through everything is no more along with these people.

Speaker 2 So it was like, it was almost like three losses at the same time.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 eventually I got to, it's time is the answer, but eventually I got to a place where I could start listening to records again, not Soundgarden.

Speaker 2 But I went, where did this start? Like I tried to, I very calculatedly went, where did I fall in love with this? Like, how do I find myself again?

Speaker 2 And so I started at the very beginning, which was the Beatles, where it's the first band I fell in love with. It's the reason I started writing songs.
It's, you know, all the things.

Speaker 2 Started there, listened to every Beatles record, listened to the anthology, listened to over and over and over to find joy in it again.

Speaker 2 And then moved on from that in kind of almost chronological order of the bands that I fell in love with growing up to now, eventually ending in Soundgarden.

Speaker 2 And I found a place where I could listen to it and have it

Speaker 2 bring me some kind of comfort again.

Speaker 2 But also writing the record Death by Rock and Roll.

Speaker 2 So I made,

Speaker 2 so having to get that out, that record kind of poured out of me in a way that other records have not.

Speaker 2 Some songs have, but not full complete albums like that. And that record was so inspired and it wasn't for anyone.
And I didn't have the intention of putting it out. I didn't know if we'd record it.

Speaker 2 I didn't know any of that. Because how are we going to make a record without Kato? I don't know.

Speaker 2 There's so many things to overcome, but the writing of that record was something that I had to do for me.

Speaker 2 And it, it's almost like I didn't write it. But I think by getting it out, it, that was the first step of me starting to be able to turn the corner.

Speaker 1 That's really beautiful because I think

Speaker 1 it's so, it's so isolating when you're going through that, like you just said, and to have to almost reintroduce yourself to something you love so much, but that now is causing you so much pain because, because of the remembering of what was connected to that is torture almost.

Speaker 1 But you also have to always remember in grief that like

Speaker 1 most of these people would never want you to leave the one thing that connected you guys.

Speaker 1 And slowly the goal is to get back to it so you can feel them through, I'm sure, the music and you can feel them when you're making it.

Speaker 1 But even the concept of making it in the beginning is so fucking hard.

Speaker 2 So hard. It seems impossible.
Cause at the end of the day, I try to say Cato's name every day. I don't even try to.
I just still do

Speaker 2 because it keeps him. keeps him around.
Kind of doing it. Yeah.
And so, but he's also, he was such a big part of my life that there's no way to not talk about him.

Speaker 2 And he's still such a big part of my life. And I think that that's, that's the key to loss.
And to is I learned that

Speaker 2 while that pain never goes away and that feeling of, you know, missing them and all the things that come with grief, the intensity does.

Speaker 2 So it's, it's kind of like when it happens, it's, you're sliced down the middle. You're bleeding everywhere.
Like it's blood gushing.

Speaker 2 And as time passes, that wound heals and you're left with a massive scar. And that scar,

Speaker 2 you know, you're not bleeding all over the floor anymore, but now that's a part of you. And so I look at all everyone I've lost as like they're a scar I carry with me every day.

Speaker 2 And I'm proud to have those scars. I'm proud that they're a part of my life and that I loved them that much to be able to feel the way I feel.

Speaker 1 You know, I appreciate you sharing that because I think

Speaker 1 I've lightly talked about grief on the show, but I think it's always so one, yes, subjective.

Speaker 1 But when you put it like that, I think it can just help a lot of people because I'm sure there's literally someone watching that's like

Speaker 1 day one starting to do the battle of like get through it.

Speaker 2 It's brutal. And the only thing I would say is that like, it's what Death by Rock and Roll turned into is that at the end of the day, this record, the record's very hopeful.

Speaker 2 Like it starts off very dark and very bleak, but there's this kind of positive turn towards the end of it that there is light at the end of this tunnel that seems impossible and seems never-ending.

Speaker 2 And if you can just wait it out, you will get to the other side.

Speaker 2 And that's the thing that I say to anyone who's struggling with depression or loss or anything even remotely close to this kind of feeling is that it does get better.

Speaker 2 And it's the fucked up thing about that is when people say that to you when you're in it, you want to punch them in the face.

Speaker 1 It's so real. You're like,

Speaker 2 what do you know? What the fuck do you know? It gets better. Like, what a cliche thing.
And then you live it and you're like, oh, fuck, it does. But it does.
Time does. It does.

Speaker 2 If you can just hang on long enough to get to the other side, there is another side waiting for you.

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Speaker 1 Walk me through

Speaker 1 what you have felt with double standards when it comes to music and the music industry for you as a woman.

Speaker 2 I'll be honest, I I get,

Speaker 2 it's probably an unpopular answer, but I

Speaker 2 tend to not, I get asked a lot what it's like to be a woman in rock and roll and a woman in music and the double, you know, all the things you just said. And while yes, it exists,

Speaker 2 I kind of don't look at it that way. Like, I kind of live in my own, maybe I live in my own world, my own mental bubble, but I look at it like

Speaker 2 music is music, good music is good music,

Speaker 2 Gender doesn't really matter. And

Speaker 2 most music's crap. Like, that's how, like, I see it.
It's like, I want to compete with the best people.

Speaker 2 And so, the only thing with not the only thing, but the thing with being a woman in the music industry is that you get compared to women in the music industry. Not that that's a bad thing.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of amazing women, but you're cutting out an entire

Speaker 2 sect of musicians and not even putting putting those two next to each other because of a gender thing. So, so being a

Speaker 2 so I don't really know because I kind of just don't really think of it that way.

Speaker 1 But I think that's like the best way to look at it. And I think that doesn't just pertain to music, which I

Speaker 1 agree with you. And I'm going to take that as advice moving forward because I think you're right.
There's so many industries that we just talk about. This woman, is she as good as this woman?

Speaker 1 Or like, oh, these actors or, oh, these politicians, or oh, these, you know, hosts, or whatever it be. Yeah.
And most of the time, you're only comparing them to the same gender. And I agree with you.

Speaker 1 It's like so limiting.

Speaker 2 It's so limiting.

Speaker 1 And especially as a woman, it's like, it's also a lot of times it's derogatory because it's like, well, for the women,

Speaker 1 you guys are pretty good.

Speaker 2 And you're like, what does that mean? Like,

Speaker 1 I remember when I signed a deal for my podcast in the early days of my career and everyone was like, the first like woman did blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 And I was like, we know, but like, the deal is like bigger than most men. So shouldn't we just be like, take out the gender? Take out the gender.

Speaker 2 What are the focusing on that?

Speaker 1 Deals on podcasting. Like, not like for a woman, you're like, what does that have to do with...

Speaker 2 Everyone knows I'm a woman. Everyone knows.
Right.

Speaker 1 So that I think is.

Speaker 1 I think that's great advice for people listening.

Speaker 1 It's just like, yes, you can't control the way that people are going to spin it, but you can control how you like digest it and you own it of like, no, I'm not going to let that affect what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 No, it doesn't affect what I'm doing at all. And I mean, I own my femininity.
Like I love being a woman most of the time, you know, except for, you know, except for that time around the month.

Speaker 2 But yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's,

Speaker 2 it's,

Speaker 1 you just have to look at it like,

Speaker 2 like you said, you don't let it affect what you're doing. Like, I'm assuming, like, who do you look up to? Who are your heroes?

Speaker 1 Some of them are women and some of them are men.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 It's not, yeah.

Speaker 2 You don't only have women idols. Right, right.
You know, that's a good point. So why are you looking at it like that?

Speaker 2 And at the same time, when you put the woman stats in there, like our stats are really good. Like, we have a bunch of number ones and

Speaker 2 breaking records and that kind of thing. So

Speaker 2 but it's the way I like handle my, you know, my art, the music I make, whatever. That's that never comes into my mind at all.
Cause why would it? I wake up like I wake up a woman. Facts.

Speaker 1 Okay, Taylor. This is Caller Daddy.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Let's talk about your dating life. Okay.

Speaker 1 What is it like trying to date as a musician?

Speaker 2 I don't know if it has anything to do with musician than probably just me as a person, but I think that I'm a very

Speaker 2 trusting person and I'm a very guarded person at the same time.

Speaker 2 So anyone I let into my life in any form of a relationship, there's

Speaker 2 a life bond there. Like that, I'm not letting people into my life that are fleeting.

Speaker 2 It's just not, I mean, you have those people in your life, but it's, but I'm always looking for something that has a

Speaker 2 has depth to it that

Speaker 2 is filling something that I need in my life. And that's from friends to relationships to whatever.
Like it's managers. It doesn't matter.
Like they have to have a, there's a quality about that that

Speaker 2 is deep and very normal, I think. Love.

Speaker 2 So there's that.

Speaker 1 What is a non-negotiable you look for in someone that you're dating?

Speaker 2 Well, kind,

Speaker 2 funny. Gotta be funny.
Gotta make me laugh.

Speaker 2 Smart. And

Speaker 2 we have to have the same musical taste, or that's just not gonna work.

Speaker 2 That's just not gonna work at all.

Speaker 1 You're also like, you also have to think my music is amazing.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much. Worship the ground up.

Speaker 1 Just a classic. Just the tad.
Yeah, you have some songs that you talk about, unhealthy relationship dynamics.

Speaker 1 What is something that you used to put up with when you were younger that you definitely wouldn't tolerate now in romantic relationships?

Speaker 2 Using, like, using me.

Speaker 2 I think I definitely went through a phase of dating guys that

Speaker 2 weren't interested in me for me. They were interested in what I had to give them and what I had to offer them, especially around the show.
Like,

Speaker 2 well, if I date her, I can go to this party and meet so-and-so and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 And I'm talking about people that were in the industry at the time and stuff, but weren't necessarily as successful and using me for

Speaker 2 something other than myself. And

Speaker 2 when you're in it, you don't see that.

Speaker 2 And when you get out of it, the anger that comes with that and the betrayal of like, I just gave you myself and you weren't interested in that at all like it's super fucked up feeling oh yeah that can lead to some fucking trust issues yeah so you know that I can

Speaker 2 but the good news is I can really see through that now so yeah and you were young and it's like I was young that makes sense um have you ever been cheated on yes how did you find out

Speaker 2 um I walked in on it

Speaker 2 Taylor yeah

Speaker 2 Taylor yep no you didn't oh yeah I did no oh yeah I did At a party. Walked into a back room looking for a bathroom or drink or something.
I don't know, whatever the fuck I was doing.

Speaker 1 Did they know you were at the party too?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. And you were probably coming from an event or something and then stopped by later.
But oh yeah, no, walked in on like full naked, like

Speaker 2 full-on sex happening. And did you just be like, okay, I'm going to walk out or what was your reaction? I left and I went with my best friend at the time and we went and got a tattoo.

Speaker 2 What is a tattoo? I have a teeny tiny star. It's my one and only tattoo.

Speaker 1 How did you come up with the star? You're like, I just got cheated on? I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, let's, we got matching tattoos. That was.

Speaker 1 Did the person call you street?

Speaker 2 Don't you stop.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Did they call and apologize or they never?

Speaker 2 Uh,

Speaker 2 I'm trying to remember now how this all went down. Taylor.
Oh, there was a big, like, you know, fuck you match. And I

Speaker 2 lose my fucking number. Like, can't do that shit.

Speaker 1 You got a cute tattoo out of it, though.

Speaker 2 I got it. I got my one and only.
That's your only tat.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. Post-cheating classic.
Love that for you.

Speaker 2 The best part was it was St. Mark Street, and my friend

Speaker 2 is a guy, and he got one here, too. His is like twice as big as mine.
Mine took...

Speaker 2 Was it painful? It was totally, it was right on the rib. But the guy doing it, I think, really just like staring at my boob because my teeny tiny star took forever.

Speaker 2 And it's like, it essentially, it's a mole. You're like,

Speaker 1 this is actually a dot. Like, we've been dots.

Speaker 2 It's a dot. Like,

Speaker 2 I'm essentially Phoebe and friends when she gets her mom tattooed on her and it's just the dot like that's and this motherfucker's been done for an hour and you're like

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 are we still going okay

Speaker 1 yeah okay well good to know you're one tat and would you get more no no you're done no i'm done uh beetles didn't have tattoos i'm good oh i love that that's like your compass north star like beetles didn't have tattoos taylor won't have tattoos i'm also over revolving so like i don't want to it's hard for i too indecisive i am the same way i'm like i don't even know what i would want on my body for forever so i'm just just not going to do it.

Speaker 2 I think like I draw on myself a lot. And I use those like inkbox pens.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then it fades because that's fun, but then it fades.

Speaker 1 Okay. Let's talk about your Christmas EP.
I know we mentioned it earlier, but tis the fucking season. This is, it's so good.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 I was listening to it on my way here. And first of all, I want you to know that

Speaker 1 hearing you

Speaker 1 put together the song with your six-year-old self, I was getting emotional. It made me emotional.

Speaker 2 Like hearing it back for the first time, like singing, it's one thing, but then actually listening, listening to it come through the speakers after the first take of it. Like it's beautiful.

Speaker 2 You well up. Like there's something so.

Speaker 1 And I love how the EP, it's also like, you did such a brilliant job of like, there's some slow, there's some rock. There, like you really gave us everything that we needed and more.

Speaker 1 The lyrics are perfect. Like, I'm so excited to be listening to this during Christmas time.

Speaker 1 The Grinch is also re-releasing in theaters for the 25th anniversary.

Speaker 1 What does it mean to you that that movie and now full circle with this EP, like this is now just becoming a part of so many people's like Christmas traditions?

Speaker 2 Well, I think that like over the years,

Speaker 2 realizing that Grinch was never going to go away,

Speaker 2 I became more and more fond of it and seeing how much joy that it brings to people, you know, old and young and every year people discovering it and like just loving it so much makes me really happy to be a part of something that brings that much happiness to other people.

Speaker 2 How very Cindy Loohoo of me, but it's true. Like it makes me, it makes me nostalgic and, you know, proud that I can bring smiles to people around the world every year.

Speaker 2 Or that I'm not me, but I'm a part of something that does.

Speaker 1 Have you re-watched it?

Speaker 2 Oh, I've definitely watched Grunch. You have? Yes.

Speaker 2 Of course. Okay, that makes sense.
I don't watch it every year, but I definitely watch like a few scenes every year. And this year, I want to go see it in theaters.

Speaker 1 Can you fucking imagine? I'm looking into camera. Can you imagine being sitting in the fucking movie theater and you're sitting in like the fifth row, the sixth row?

Speaker 1 You turn to your right and you're like

Speaker 2 Taylor fucking Wompson?

Speaker 1 Wait, Cydney Liu, who?

Speaker 1 I'm dead. That would be crazy.

Speaker 1 You got to just roll up though.

Speaker 2 Oh, totally.

Speaker 1 And have it be like a public theater.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. You just come by.
I'm not passionate all. I'm not, I'm not, I'm New York.

Speaker 1 Like, I'll go, just go to theater. The way that that would be just the most like healing experience.
No, that's, that is really fucking cool. Um, okay, we're coming up into the new year.
Yes, we are.

Speaker 1 What are you looking forward to in this next year of your life?

Speaker 2 Oh, my goodness. I'm looking forward to so much.

Speaker 2 We.

Speaker 2 are going back out on tour with ACDC.

Speaker 2 So that's going to be amazing. It's been amazing so far, but the fact that we get to continue this journey with them is incredible.

Speaker 2 They're just the coolest. They're the loudest band you've ever heard in your life in the most awesome way possible.
They're the coolest people. They're so kind.

Speaker 2 But their live show is a schooling in what rock and roll is.

Speaker 2 And to get to watch that every night is just mind-blowing.

Speaker 2 So to continue that with them is very exciting for me. So I can't wait for that.
And we're and tour, really like the long and short of it is tour and new music and tour and new music. And

Speaker 2 the cycle continues. But it's always fun to put out new music and tour and new songs because it's start of a new, you know, new era.
And that's always a really fun place to be in.

Speaker 1 I appreciate you being so open today because I think as an interviewer, there's such a clear pattern that I'm just starting to see of like, and this is why I love my job so much I get to sit down with people that maybe people have understood them through like a lens that just was not their personal lens.

Speaker 1 It's through different pieces of other people's art, especially if you're an actress. And I think it's beautiful to like hear from you exactly what that time was like in your life.

Speaker 1 It doesn't mean people can't still enjoy gossip girl. It doesn't mean people can't still go and enjoy the Grinch, but hearing how it was affecting you as a real human being, that's work.

Speaker 1 And I think sometimes people forget like that was a job for you. Yes.

Speaker 1 And so as much as we can enjoy it as consumers, like you're a real human being that was getting paid to do these things and who the fuck enjoys their work at all times? No one.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no one. No one.

Speaker 1 That's a job. So like giving some, although I take that back.

Speaker 2 I enjoy my work now every minute of every time. Because it's your passion.
Like getting to the only thing that you don't enjoy is the actual like travel, the therapy.

Speaker 2 The physical travel of tour is brutal. So we can always find something.
But other than, but like the fact that I get to play music as a career and call it a job is insanity.

Speaker 2 And it's like, I'm so lucky. It's not playing is a pleasure.
Playing is, it's just fun. That's, and it's what it should be.
And I think that that's, I feel so fortunate.

Speaker 1 But you're also just the. exact example.
And I've always said this and I know it is a privilege, but it's like, if you are able to turn your purpose and your passion like into your job or your career,

Speaker 1 it is such a privilege and it's so incredible to experience it. But the way that you talk about acting versus being a musician, it's like there is no comparison.
You light up. This is who you are.

Speaker 1 This is what you are.

Speaker 1 And so, yes, you were known as something, but I think it's beautiful to now let the world fully lean in and get to know you as this version of yourself because this is your true self.

Speaker 1 And that's what we want to celebrate. It's like, let people be who the fuck they are.
End of story.

Speaker 2 Goodbye. Oh my God.
Thank you so much for having me on. You're kind of like popping my podcast cherry.
I'm not a bit, I think, maybe I've done a couple, but I'm not like a, I don't do this a lot.

Speaker 2 Well, you crashed. That was amazing.
I hope that was all right. Thank you, Taylor.
I really appreciate it. You make this very comfortable.
And I'm happy you were cozy shape or form. That was the goal.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Seriously, thank you for coming.

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