Ellen Pompeo: Pick Me, Choose Me, Pay Me More

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Speaker 1 What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Speaker 1 Ellen Pompeo, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 I was just saying this to someone before you got here. I have interviewed so many people my career now.

Speaker 1 Hands down, I have never gotten starstruck. I'm a little starstruck right now.
I am a huge fan.

Speaker 2 Huge.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 I'm a fan of yours too. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Your daughter is here today.

Speaker 2 She is.

Speaker 1 She is in the daddy gang. You have to just like lightly tell the story of how this came to be because I am, I love her right now.
I'm like, you are an OG.

Speaker 1 Thank you for getting your mom on the show right now. Tell us everything.

Speaker 2 Okay, so I was driving, and sometimes, you know, she's in the car, and I'll have her look at my messages when they come through because I can't look when I'm driving.

Speaker 2 So she says, Oh, you got an email email from Leed, my publicist. And mom, mom, you got invited on Caller Daddy.
And I was like, I did? And she said, yeah.

Speaker 2 I said, well, well, I can't, I can't, I can't do that because

Speaker 2 the daddy gang doesn't know who I am because I'm like 105. And,

Speaker 2 you know, and so, and so she was like, mom, are you kidding me right now? First of all, Alex follows you on Instagram, mom. She's a fan.
She watches Gray's Anatomy. She loves you.
You're doing this.

Speaker 2 And of course, like every mother with a 15-year-old, whatever they say, I do. So I was like, oh, really? She follows me?

Speaker 1 That's so cool. I'm cool.

Speaker 2 I was, I felt so cool. So I was like, let's do it.
Let's do it. And she was like, I'm responding to your publicist and I'm letting them know.
And so she did. And then they said, Stella, you're hired.

Speaker 1 Stella walks in here and her confidence, she literally just said to me right before, she's like, I responded to the publicist. I told her we're doing it.
I'm like, you are such a mini of your mom.

Speaker 1 That is like, she's, her energy was amazing. I'm so grateful to her.
I'm so happy we're here.

Speaker 1 Okay. Are you a strict parent? Or like,

Speaker 1 what's the vibe? Are they sneaking out? Are they not sneaking out? How's it going?

Speaker 2 They are not sneaking out. I will break their fingers.
I am

Speaker 2 very strict. I'm super intense.
I'm a Scorpio.

Speaker 1 How would you describe yourself in three words?

Speaker 2 I think bossy,

Speaker 2 empathetic, and passionate.

Speaker 1 You grew up outside of Boston, right? I did. Do you still have any of that Boston accent? If can you bring it back?

Speaker 2 Wait, are you kidding me? You can't hear it? No. Have you ever spent any time in Boston?

Speaker 1 Yes, I went to college there. My mom's from Boston.
Stop it. Where is she from? Lowell.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Wait, where did you go to college?

Speaker 1 Boston University. Good for you.
So pack the cabin hot violet. Pack the cab.

Speaker 2 I didn't go to university. I was working at fucking Dunkin' Donutson.

Speaker 1 I love that for you.

Speaker 2 Yes, I have. And my husband's from Boston also.
So

Speaker 2 I'm constantly trying to not sound like I have a Boston accent.

Speaker 1 But if you needed to, you could pull it out.

Speaker 2 Oh, it's, it's, I always feel like it's there. I hear it, but you may not hear it as much, but I could pull it out in two sections.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Maybe it will come out today. Who is the most famous person in your phone? Ooh.

Speaker 2 Ooh, that's a good question.

Speaker 1 DiCaprio?

Speaker 1 The way you just said that?

Speaker 1 Even like, just like not even, like, you're not not even sure you're like maybe to caprio

Speaker 2 i mean he's pretty iconic just a little bit yeah but his dad is in my phone too and listen the the man the myth the legend george is where leo came from so in my opinion you know no diss to leo he knows i love him but george is the real og oh man hearing you say the name george just literally brought me back to like season one two three four okay we're gonna get there um your fans are obviously so diehard and by fans i mean me literally sitting in front of you right now what is the craziest fan interaction you've ever had you know i it's i don't think i've had like any really crazy inappropriate ones

Speaker 2 but they're all pretty impressive when they say, you know, I'm a pediatric oncologist because of you, or I'm a pediatric neurosurgeon because of you.

Speaker 2 You know, there's a lot of people that have gone into medical careers, which, you know, pediatric oncology. I mean, are you kidding me? That's like, how do you do that every day?

Speaker 2 If that's truly God's work,

Speaker 2 so I think I've never gotten like a weird, I've never gotten any weirdos.

Speaker 1 No, more like inspiring. Yeah.
Do people see you on the street and call you Meredith?

Speaker 2 All the time. Yeah.
Not so much in L.A. I think L.A.
everyone's used to actors. You know, it's more other places.

Speaker 1 What is the wildest rumor you've ever heard about yourself?

Speaker 2 Oh, that's super easy. There was like this ridiculous, like, I had six toes or some shit like that.
It was like, yo, tabloids used to be so crazy.

Speaker 1 You, what?

Speaker 2 Listen, you ladies have it easy because back before the phones and Instagram and TikTok and all this new media,

Speaker 2 there used to be tabloids. There was 50 of them.
And they would just write the craziest shit.

Speaker 2 And that was one of the craziest things that like I had six toes, which I actually actually have 10 toes, but I think they meant I had six toes on one.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, obviously Grey's Anatomy is everyone's go-to comfort show.

Speaker 1 What is yours? Ooh.

Speaker 2 Well, so I think Love Island right now.

Speaker 1 U.S. or U.K.?

Speaker 2 It's wait, it's U.S. U.S.
But they're on an island, not in the United States.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, but they're like, it's either the U.S. version or the UK version.
Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, you're U.S.
Yes. You like Love Island?

Speaker 2 Well, I watch it with Shell. Listen, I'm very critical.
I talk a lot of shit while I'm watching Love Island. I talk mad shit.

Speaker 2 No one talks more shit than me watching Love Island, but I do watch it. It's like me and Stella's.
It's, you know, what we do. It's your thing.
Yeah, it's your thing.

Speaker 1 It's like, you got to be dedicated. There's so many episodes.

Speaker 1 It's like before you know it, you've like missed it on six episodes because like a bunch come out every single day when it starts going out. Like, do you watch them in bulk?

Speaker 2 No, like, how do they film so many? Yeah, like, there's like 47 episodes. Now, I've only ever watched, I think, one season.
Okay, yes. Yeah, yeah.
Serena and Cordell. That's my season.

Speaker 2 Those are my peeps. Love them.

Speaker 2 Literally want to get invited to their wedding.

Speaker 2 They're so adorable. But what, but yeah, like 47 episodes.
What? How do you film 47 episodes? It literally must just be like two hour blocks. of a 14 hour day.

Speaker 1 It's so entertaining. I also was addicted.
I interviewed Leah and Rob from that season and it was just like the biggest thing ever.

Speaker 1 I'm like, Love Island, people go hard, but clearly we know because you're sitting right here.

Speaker 1 Okay, growing up, my mom and I had a ritual. We would eat dinner together.
We would turn on grays. We would watch until our eyes hurt and then we would force ourselves to go to bed.

Speaker 1 How does it make you feel knowing?

Speaker 1 the way that that show has just like impacted so many people's lives, whether it's bringing people together, keeping people comforted when they are lonely and they're alone, whether it's inspired them to go get a job in that field.

Speaker 1 Like, how does it make you feel?

Speaker 2 I think it sort of justifies for me, you know, why I've done it for so long. Because,

Speaker 2 you know, as actor, as an actor, you say you, you want to touch people and you want to move people, right? And I think everybody wants to be impactful in their life.

Speaker 2 Everybody wants to be seen, heard, and have an impact and sort of leave this planet feeling like I did something worthwhile.

Speaker 2 And I think if I've been a part of something that brings people together, then you know that that sort of legitimizes it for me. Because as an artist, you know,

Speaker 2 it isn't the most normal path, right?

Speaker 2 All actors, you want to chase the trophies, you want to chase being relevant, you want to chase the new sexy, hot, shiny thing and work with this director and that director.

Speaker 2 And I didn't choose that for several reasons. But the fact that I didn't, you know, it's always in the back of your mind, like, what, what would have happened if I didn't do this?

Speaker 2 Much later on, you sort of feel you understand it now.

Speaker 2 I mean, I've had a really full home life as an actor, which is something that I probably wouldn't have normally been able to do if I had if I had taken a different, more creative path.

Speaker 2 So, but it makes, to answer your question, it makes me feel like I've really done something as commercial as it is and perhaps as uncreative as it may be for my field.

Speaker 2 I've touched a lot of people and moved a lot of people and inspired a lot of people. And that's more than a lot of people in this business can say.

Speaker 1 And I think what you've done, every single person watching this is going to be like, oh, she's the fucking best. She is the fucking best.

Speaker 1 She has been there on my TV since I can remember and I love her. And I think in some capacity, it's interesting to look at actors and it's like, is it for your own ego?

Speaker 1 Or if you just love what you're doing and it's fun, like, isn't that enough? But I love what you're saying.

Speaker 1 It's like, this afforded me what I wanted, which was, yes, my career and I loved it, but I also love my family because, right, you, you filmed a lot in LA, right?

Speaker 2 All of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So that's what allowed you to have this steady lifestyle while also being able to be a mother and to be a wife and to be a friend while simultaneously having a very successful career that is very public, but comparatively, you're not flying across the world to Serbia and filming a movie.

Speaker 2 And different things work for different people, right? You know, at a certain point, you know, I

Speaker 2 had a choice to sort of finish my contract or stay.

Speaker 2 And at the age I was, I was like, oh, well, I'll be 40 when my first contract is up.

Speaker 2 I better resign and take this money because, you know, they offer you, if you resign, we'll give you this giant raise.

Speaker 2 so i thought back then 20 years ago 40 women at 40 you it's over that's a wrap honey so i was like oh i better sign and i better i better do this because this is the most money i'm ever going to make and the most opportunity i'm ever going to get and women in this industry are so incredible because look at how far we've come and every little bit matters right but we all collectively push this giant boulder up a hill and we've gotten it to a really good place where here I am at 55 years old.

Speaker 2 I just turned 55 last month, you know, and

Speaker 2 I'm getting a whole second chapter here after this with this new show. So

Speaker 2 I think that, you know,

Speaker 2 it's different for different people. And also being raised in Boston and growing up the way I grew up, which was pretty intense

Speaker 2 for me,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 became aware at a a very early age that people with money had power.

Speaker 2 And I didn't have any power as a young woman. And I didn't like the way that felt.
And I think part of that is just my personality. It's not all your environment.

Speaker 2 It's part of it is just my personality. And I would watch people that men, all men, who had a lot of money and a lot of power.

Speaker 2 I looked up to them and thought they were incredibly cool. And they were all really bad guys.

Speaker 2 They were all mafia guys and really bad people super nice to me just like good fellas they were great to all of us but really they weren't probably the best guys and i know that now but they were the ones who had all the power and

Speaker 2 their wives and girlfriends wore fur coats and and and people literally the sea parted when they walked through and they just had this command and that to me was like They had it. They had stature.

Speaker 2 They had money. They had power.
So I equated money with power very early on. And as a woman, I'm sure you know

Speaker 2 how freeing it feels to have financial independence because you don't have to be with any man you don't want to be with. You get to choose what man you want to be with because you want to be with him.

Speaker 2 And the day you decide you didn't want to be with him, if that were to ever happen, which it won't,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 you can walk out the door. I mean, you know, for women, financial freedom is true independence.
And

Speaker 2 those little patriarchal bitches that, you know, are shivering in their panties right now because I can't. I just cannot.

Speaker 2 To be, to be financially independent to me is, is what makes me the happiest, me feel the most free. I don't ever have to do anything I don't want to do.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I love

Speaker 1 you saying that because I do think there is a feeling for women where when you don't have the money, you still think,

Speaker 1 well, is it, is it the money or do I need to be close to a powerful man? And it's hard to separate, but once you get there, you're like, oh, I don't need fucking jack shit. Get away from me.

Speaker 1 But it takes you climbing the ladder and interacting with the patriarchy and the misogyny and experiencing it all to now be sitting where you're saying, like you're sitting here and just being like, I'm good.

Speaker 1 Wait, but hold up.

Speaker 2 Yep. I'm not even mad at you have to be next to a powerful man.
Go ahead, get next to him him and use him to level up.

Speaker 2 Just step right on him and just level up.

Speaker 2 Don't stay under him. If you do what you have to do, girl, use him, get right next to him, pick his pockets and keep it moving.
It's okay, you know?

Speaker 2 And I'm not mad at any, you know, woman who does whatever she can to get where she needs to go. I agree.
Just get there and keep it moving.

Speaker 2 You know, don't be in an apron cutting his meat, honey.

Speaker 1 Piri yen.

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Speaker 1 Let's go back for a second to

Speaker 1 your agent first told you about Grace.

Speaker 1 You weren't really into it.

Speaker 1 What were your hesitations about doing the show to begin with? And where were you at your career and financially when you were trying to make this decision?

Speaker 2 Should I take grace madam and should i not i was broke um i had done a movie with jake gyllenhall

Speaker 2 called moonlight mile and it got like all this buzz people saw it and was like this is going to be an oscar movie you're going to be nominated for an oscar this is crazy and i really didn't know what i was doing at that point it was my first movie i was terrified and uh before it came out i got all this attention from all these people were calling me all these big producers all these big directors were calling me and we thought this was going to be some big deal.

Speaker 2 It ended up, the studio didn't actually market the movie because they thought the movie was so sad. They didn't really know what to do with it or how to market it.

Speaker 2 So they built it all up in my mind and were like, this performance is incredible. And this is going to happen and that's going to happen.

Speaker 2 And CAA came around and the publicists and the lawyers and everybody comes around. And then the movie came out and kind of like, it was in five theaters.
So I was like, wait, what?

Speaker 2 And then I, you know, I chugged along. I, I was trying to be in good movies with great directors, but they were only really small parts.
So I kept doing those.

Speaker 2 I kept getting like sort of cut out of those.

Speaker 2 And then I had no money left. And so this came along.
And

Speaker 2 I was like, I don't want to be on a TV show. Like, I'm trying to be in these movies.
And I had all these people call me and tell me how amazing I am. And I should stay on this track.

Speaker 2 Why are you trying to derail me and put me over here? And my agent said, well, it's just a TV pilot and these things never go.

Speaker 2 So you can make a bunch of money with the TV pilot and then you'll be unemployed again in exactly 42 days. So

Speaker 2 I just did it, not knowing, you know, and then the pilot got picked up and then we went back to shoot season one.

Speaker 1 And what was your first impression of Shonda Rhymes?

Speaker 2 I had lunch with Shonda at RIP Barney's. Remember Barney's? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I had lunch with her. They said, we want you to go meet this person.
And to be honest,

Speaker 2 this, the, it was called the untitled Shonda Rhimes Project at that, at that point.

Speaker 2 I hadn't been reading any scripts that would, that I would have been the main character. I was always the girlfriend.

Speaker 2 You know, I was some side chick down an alley in one scene in these great movies. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 There was nothing for me to really do, but because I, I was all, I had a heart on for the director, or, you know, it's this director and this big movie star is in it. And, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2 And listen, some of those movies were great. I was in Captain Vicam with Leo and like Spielberg directed that.
And that was amazing.

Speaker 2 And I loved those guys. And I'm so grateful for that opportunity.

Speaker 2 So. Not to diss all of it, but I didn't have much to do in those movies.

Speaker 2 And Shonda's script was really the first thing that was like, oh, you're the center, you're the lead, and you're playing a surgeon, a smart character, a working woman who's trying to figure it out.

Speaker 2 And I was like, wow,

Speaker 2 who is this woman? And then I went and met her and had lunch and I loved her. I mean, it's pretty right when you speak to her right away, it's obvious how smart she is.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I can imagine the electricity in the room when you're with someone like that, that is that smart and talented.

Speaker 1 I feel like when I'm around smart women, it's inspiring and you want to work harder

Speaker 1 and it's motivating. Like, what do you think her best quality as a boss was and is?

Speaker 2 Her best quality as a boss is that's so easy to answer. When you tell her you're pregnant or you're having a baby, she literally like sounds the bell, the confetti comes down.

Speaker 2 How many days do you need off? What can we do for you? How do we make this easier for you? How do we get you paid and keep your job?

Speaker 2 Like you, we're going to write your scenes and you only have to work one day a week. I mean, she's extraordinary in that way.
Back to my earlier point of being able to have this amazing home life.

Speaker 2 Shonda is a big family person. She has a big family herself.

Speaker 2 You know, she's always with her parents and her sisters, and she really celebrates women going on a fertility journey.

Speaker 2 And, you know, whether biological, non-biological, you know, I had my second two children via surrogate. And she's just a really big supporter of women being able to work and have families.

Speaker 2 And I don't think there's many people in this town who do that.

Speaker 1 I don't have kids, but it's not lost on me that like I'm at that point where I'm thinking about like, what is that next step for me? And I've literally been at dinners, Ellen, like in Hollywood.

Speaker 1 And people have even said to me, like, oh.

Speaker 1 just

Speaker 1 wait a few more years because you know what happens when you have kids like it's gonna all change for you as my husband's fucking sitting right next to me and i'm like

Speaker 1 and for him too or just no just me just me I'm gonna become the mom and the damaged goods and I'm not as good and I'm not as and it's just you feel the

Speaker 1 tone in the way that people speak and so to have someone that is advocating for you i bet there's going to be so many women that listen to this being like oh i fucking wish my boss would do that shit and that should be a prerequisite standard for the way that women are treated not even in this industry, but in every single field, whatever you're doing for your job, like that's how we keep this fucking world moving is we are making the next generation.

Speaker 1 So support us in that journey.

Speaker 2 100%. But people who judge that and make those very ignorant comments,

Speaker 2 they lack wisdom and they lack intuition and they lack magic.

Speaker 2 And Shonda is magic. We know that.
Yeah, we do. And,

Speaker 2 you know, the truth is, and she has even famously said this,

Speaker 2 at work,

Speaker 2 I'm not 100% at work when I have kids at home. I'm absolutely not.
You cannot be a mother and have children and give 100% to your job.

Speaker 2 You can't because there's a part of you that's somewhere else you split. into different pieces.
You're no longer just you. You split into different pieces.
And you know what that does?

Speaker 2 It makes you more soulful. It makes you richer.
It makes you funnier. It makes you feel more.
It makes you more empathetic. It makes you angrier.

Speaker 2 It gives you this range of emotions that you can't even imagine having without this person. You will be

Speaker 2 yourself.

Speaker 2 times a thousand. You will just be a better version of yourself.

Speaker 2 and it doesn't matter that you can't give a hundred percent to this because by the way as women we evolve anyway and you're gonna whether you i'm not saying kids is the only path plenty of people don't want to have kids and that's great for them but if that's something that you want that's only gonna make you better You know, you're gonna morph into, you'll morph into that person who part of your being is a mother.

Speaker 2 And that's only a plus.

Speaker 1 Thank you for sharing that because like I needed to hear that. So I can imagine there's a a lot of people listening being like,

Speaker 1 yes, Ellen, thank you. Like, can I ask, did you,

Speaker 1 for your first, did you have any

Speaker 1 not hesitations, but did you, how did you feel about your career and having your first child? And were you this confident at that point?

Speaker 2 I definitely wasn't this confident, but it was more of my husband really wanted to have a child. I, it wasn't really, because I had a complicated, sort of sad childhood,

Speaker 2 childhood to me, I didn't have any sort of fond memories of children. And I wasn't, I didn't feel any maternal anything really because I didn't have a mother or I had one, but she passed away.
Okay.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, do you mind me asking just a little bit about your childhood?

Speaker 2 I passed away of an accidental overdose when I was four.

Speaker 2 But so I, you know, you know, I don't have all these fond memories of childhood and dying to be a mother and all of that was really my husband who said, I really want to have a daughter and I want to name her Stella.

Speaker 2 And I was like, you, you know, you, I don't know, you kind of should have asked me this before we got married because I don't know.

Speaker 2 I honestly, I've worked since, you know, 14 years old. I love working and I didn't really ever think about it.
I just loved working every day, love going to work.

Speaker 2 And he was like, you really don't want to have a kid?

Speaker 1 And I was like, huh?

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 2 And then he was like, just one? And I was like, oh, no.

Speaker 2 And then I was like, oh, okay. And then I started having, like, he forced me to sort of think about it more seriously.
And then I thought,

Speaker 2 you know, you think all the things like, what if I have a kid and then I don't like it? Like, you can't send it back. Like, what happens?

Speaker 2 And then I'm like, but a lot of people have kids and they're like obsessed with them. So like, maybe something happens and maybe they really do like them.

Speaker 2 And then I thought, well, you know, I'm 38 years old. And if I don't do it, I won't ever be able to.

Speaker 2 And then if I don't really like the kid or like being a mother,

Speaker 2 I'm like, I'll just have the one.

Speaker 2 Right. I was like, I don't have to do it again.
And I'll just deal with the one. So we did it.
And then, of course, you know, my heart broke open and

Speaker 2 it changed my life forever. And I evolved into a completely different person.

Speaker 2 And I would say I'm so much better for having had children. Wow.

Speaker 1 It's inspiring you hearing talking about it because I know there's mothers that listen to this. There's people that don't want kids.

Speaker 1 There's people that do want kids, but just the way that you can tell

Speaker 1 you are so

Speaker 1 filled up by the decision you made. And obviously you didn't stop at one.
So clearly you liked it. Hi, Stella, listening over there.

Speaker 1 No, it's beautiful. It's really beautiful.
And I appreciate you sharing that because I...

Speaker 1 I think a lot of what I've talked about on my show is there's so much of what we decide from our childhood and so much of our childhood impacts us, but it doesn't define us.

Speaker 1 But you have to decide where you want to start carving your own path. And it doesn't mean that you're not going to take the things that happened to you from childhood.

Speaker 1 And then whether you change things that you didn't like or you want to bring things forward that you liked, but like a lot of creating your own family. is because of what you went through.

Speaker 1 And it's beautiful to hear you talk about how like you and your husband came to this decision and it wasn't something that you were at the forefront of your brain. I think as career-driven women, it's

Speaker 1 can be hard to feel like, I'm going to put a pause on, and then hearing from you, you're like, I didn't really need to pause. Look at you.

Speaker 1 You're like, you've, you're doing it all, and you can do it all. And I think that is inspiring.

Speaker 1 I'm going to ask you some questions, some great questions, and you're going to tell me first thing that comes to mind. Okay.
Which character's death hit you the hardest?

Speaker 2 George O'Malley.

Speaker 1 It has to be.

Speaker 2 007.

Speaker 1 That moment where he wrote, oh,

Speaker 1 on your palm.

Speaker 1 I mean, the writing. Yeah.
I'm like, you just killed me. Like, you just stabbed me in the heart.
How dare you? Yeah. Holy shit.
Okay, I agree.

Speaker 1 Which scene was the most emotional to film?

Speaker 2 That was a pretty emotional one, but I would have to say, I think Sandra O's last day.

Speaker 2 was really emotional. For me, I can speak for myself.

Speaker 2 I won't speak for her, but for me, it was really emotional because I

Speaker 2 really like she's she was such a loss

Speaker 2 because she's so immensely talented. And I really didn't think the show could go on without her.

Speaker 2 And I was okay with that, but it just, it literally felt like half of the show just leaving.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it felt like a piece was going to always be missing. And I felt like when obviously anyone from the core left, it felt wrong.

Speaker 1 But that, because she was your person and you were her person on the show, it was like, I think even back to the way that you guys, the writing of that, like you're my person.

Speaker 1 And I feel like that has transcended the show in a way, because in my life, I have my person and her name is Lauren and she's my best friend. And, but it's more than a best friend.

Speaker 1 And I think that word has kind of seeped into people's lives where you really start to think like there's that iconic scene at the bar when she's, you know, pregnant and she's going through it and she's going to like not choose to keep the baby.

Speaker 1 And it's such this beautiful moment of this like.

Speaker 1 feminine energy between these two human beings of just this bond that is this unsaid thing. Like we will trudge through the shit for each other.
And it was very inspiring to me at a young age.

Speaker 1 And now I always use that term. And it mostly comes up when I'm going through the really really hard shit in life.
And I always go to my person when I need her. So thank you for bringing that to life.

Speaker 1 Also, for me, emotional when Izzy and Denny Duquette and everyone's walking down the stairs.

Speaker 2 Yes, of course, of course.

Speaker 2 I mean, listen, the brilliance of Shonda, there's been a lot of moments. How many moments?

Speaker 2 But all of those feminist moments, right? Christina Yang talking about abortion on network, prime time television, saying that the woman is the most important relationship in your life, not the man.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, she really is

Speaker 2 a feminist trailblazer

Speaker 2 in terms of like what we see on the screen on primetime television. She changed the game for sure.

Speaker 1 Without a doubt. The grossest prop you've ever had to work with.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, definitely real organs, real body parts. Yeah, it's gross.
It's really gross.

Speaker 2 We stopped using them. you know, in the later seasons, but in the beginning, we used to use, you know, real bowel, real intestine, like bovine, cow intestine, cow heart, cow liver,

Speaker 2 cow brain.

Speaker 2 It's all really gross.

Speaker 1 Oh, you've gone through it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay,

Speaker 1 which Meredith Grayline is most often quoted back to you?

Speaker 2 Pick me, choose me, love me.

Speaker 2 That's iconic, too.

Speaker 1 More than iconic.

Speaker 2 Katie Hackle didn't even know that pick me, girl came from that. I was like, girl, dude.
Religions.

Speaker 1 When I saw that interview between you guys and you were like, did you know what a pick-me girl is? And she's like, are we pick-me girls? I was down.

Speaker 1 You're like, my daughter told me that we basically, and I was the ultimate pick-me girl. Stella's like, mom, you're such a pick-me.
I'm like, oh my God. That line, though, I agree.

Speaker 1 I also will never forget the starewell moment. And I have to tell you the story because it's so embarrassing.
When you looked at Derek and you say, you don't get to call me a whore. Yeah.
Yeah. Girl.

Speaker 1 And you say, I, you basically say, like, I will not apologize for the way that I repair my, choose to repair what you broke. I'm not a whore.
I use that on an ex-boyfriend. You do.

Speaker 1 It's so embarrassing. Ellen,

Speaker 1 I'm in the wake of a breakup. He cheated.
I'm devastated. I move on.
He finds out I move on quickly. He calls me a whore.
I'm sitting there like, what, what can I say to this man?

Speaker 1 We're going to get brunch and we're going to talk it through. And I'm like, this man has never seen Gray's anatomy.
I pull your line out of my ass.

Speaker 1 I look this man dead in the eyes over a coffee and I literally say, you don't get to call me a whore. And I said the whole fucking line.
He was too stunned to speak.

Speaker 1 I was like, I literally like, I hope he doesn't like go Google that shit because it was so brilliant. Oh, and he was like mortified.
I was like, thank you, Meredith Gray. Moving on.
So I've literally

Speaker 1 pretty good.

Speaker 1 Meredith has so many near-death experiences. Which do you think was the most insane?

Speaker 2 Insane in what way?

Speaker 2 Like on not believable?

Speaker 1 No, insane in the like, it really pushed, it pushed, like for me, the fairy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the fairy and Derek carrying me when I'm blue was, you know, that was amazing.

Speaker 1 And Christina saying, again,

Speaker 1 try again. I'm like, can you watch this just a couple times?

Speaker 2 That was amazing.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think the bomb moment was.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. For sure.

Speaker 1 heavy. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which co-star would you consider your closest friend?

Speaker 2 You know, I probably I'm closest to Justin Chambers.

Speaker 1 Okay. Both.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think Justin and TR. I think I'm closest with them.

Speaker 1 Cute. Yeah.
As we all saw, Meredith didn't make the best decisions in her relationship sometimes. Sometimes.
We love our girl, but sometimes.

Speaker 1 I'm going to give you a scenario from the show and you tell me what advice you would now give Meredith.

Speaker 1 Meredith begging Derek to choose her over his wife. Girl.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 1 Love.

Speaker 1 Meredith rebounding with George when she knew he liked her for years.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 can I tell you an inside story about that?

Speaker 1 Please.

Speaker 2 This is crazy.

Speaker 2 TR and I are such good friends.

Speaker 2 And we had to do a love scene. And we were both crying.

Speaker 2 We cried.

Speaker 2 We cried. And the scene

Speaker 2 was so uncomfortable and awkward.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he didn't want to do that. I didn't want to do it.

Speaker 2 And when we filmed it, it was so bad.

Speaker 2 And then the network said there was too much thrusting.

Speaker 2 In your worst nightmare to have to do it one time, we had to to reshoot that shit. No.
We had to reshoot it and do it twice. No.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you, by the way, I've never watched that scene. I've never seen it.

Speaker 2 But I don't know how it was shot or covered or what the end, how it was edited, but I'm full on in tears the whole entire scene. And those are real tears.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 There was a lot of stuff that I didn't want to do at the time. I didn't want to say, pick me, choose me, love me.
you know, and to Shonda's credit, like she knew that was going to pop.

Speaker 2 I was like, why would I do this? Why would I beg? Why would I, and, and, you know, you have to just suck it up and do it.

Speaker 2 And, um, and it ended up being, you know, the biggest thing ever, the most iconic things ever.

Speaker 2 So I'm not always the best judge of, you know, what's going to, and it's not like I said it wasn't going to be good. I was just like, I don't want to do that.

Speaker 2 And, and, you know, but so.

Speaker 1 That's so interesting. Thank you for the little T there.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 Okay, Meredith attempting to be friends with benefits with an ex like Derek.

Speaker 2 Listen, it depends on the situation. True.
You know.

Speaker 1 You never know.

Speaker 2 Do what you need to do, girl.

Speaker 2 Kind of fair. Handle your business.

Speaker 1 Meredith dating a former patient.

Speaker 2 Was he hot? Who was it?

Speaker 1 Was it Nick? Was his name Nick? Oh, Nick.

Speaker 2 Speedman's so hot.

Speaker 1 Yes. What?

Speaker 2 We're not questioning dating Speedman.

Speaker 2 I'm not Speedman. Nick Marsh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speedman's happily married with two children.
My good friend, but, you know, daddy gang, he's hot. Love.

Speaker 1 Okay, and last one. Meredith building her future home out of candles to show Derek her commitment, even though he had a girlfriend, Rose.
Wait, I built it.

Speaker 2 No, he did the candles.

Speaker 1 No, you did. You see,

Speaker 1 stupid house. I shouldn't have done this.
I'm so embarrassed.

Speaker 2 I don't want to be.

Speaker 1 And he comes in, member?

Speaker 2 Yes. No, I don't even remember.

Speaker 1 Meredith built the house in candles.

Speaker 2 He built the house in candles.

Speaker 1 No, you're like, I'm so embarrassing. This is so stupid.
I shouldn't have done this. And then he's like, Meredith, and you're like, this is our living room.
This is where we're going to have the kids.

Speaker 1 This is where we're. And he's like, I have to leave.
I have to go tell Rose. Really? I love I'm telling you this.

Speaker 2 Oh my God. I didn't remember that.
That's what it was. You know what I remember from that scene?

Speaker 2 I remember the poor prop people having to light every single candle and like the wind blowing and blowing out half of them.

Speaker 1 And then me like, so good.

Speaker 2 There was like 17 of us trying to light all the candles.

Speaker 1 Okay. It's obviously such a big cast.

Speaker 1 Can you talk to me about like, how do you handle? Because at the end of the day, this is your job.

Speaker 1 How did you handle when maybe you didn't vibe with certain people on set or you didn't get along with people like anyone does in a work environment?

Speaker 1 Like, how did you personally navigate those moments?

Speaker 2 Maybe not always the best. I think there's no real roadmap to do it one way.
I think it depends on the circumstance.

Speaker 2 You know, not everybody is going to like you.

Speaker 2 And you have to be okay with that.

Speaker 2 I say that to Stella all the time.

Speaker 2 You know, you don't like everybody. I don't like everybody.
So not everybody is going to like you. And that's sometimes hard, but it's just a fact of life.

Speaker 2 And you have to just swallow that pill that, like, you're not everybody's cup of tea. And

Speaker 2 so it's challenging. I think that,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 sometimes I've I've I've um

Speaker 2 I think what's hard,

Speaker 2 what was hard for me on set for Grays is I felt like because I did have a position of power that I could advocate for certain people sometimes and try to fight for people when they maybe didn't feel like they had enough power.

Speaker 2 And then to have that not be well received

Speaker 2 and people to like say, like, we don't need, we don't, I don't need you to like do that for me I thought like oh yikes so sorry like you know

Speaker 2 and and I've learned so much but but what I've learned is every situation is different you know and then

Speaker 2 you know I not not not I've not always handled everything perfectly obviously I've stuck my foot in my mouth more times than I can choose on the show and and off it you know but all you can do is learn and I think the thing about me is my intention is always good, but sometimes as a sort of strong person, and I'm a strong person because I've survived a lot and dealt with a lot.

Speaker 2 So I do have a tough exterior.

Speaker 2 Sometimes that is misconstrued as something else because I am hard on the outside and I curse like a sailor and I'll literally start a fist fight in the middle of Rodeo Drive with someone who cuts me off.

Speaker 2 I will

Speaker 2 don't sleep. I will.

Speaker 2 But I'm also like super soft and chewy inside. And, you know, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a complex blend, I think.

Speaker 1 Aren't we all? I do want to talk a little bit more about that: of you being the leading role, right? And the pressures that come with that. And

Speaker 1 can we talk about money? Yeah. Let's talk about money.
Let's do it.

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Speaker 1 Your $20 million salary was publicly shared to the world.

Speaker 1 How did you feel when that came out? Well,

Speaker 2 my manager at the time said something to me that literally hit me like a brick. He said,

Speaker 2 are you ready to be unpopular?

Speaker 2 I was like, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 And he was like, well, I just don't want you to think that everyone's going to go in and cheer for you and clap for you and bow to you and think you're the dopest thing ever because there's going to be a lot of people who are not happy for you.

Speaker 2 And that had never occurred to me. And I was like, oh, thanks for saying that to me.
It did not occur to me. And you are so right.

Speaker 2 And so that was a good prep for me that he said that. But, but it's true.
It's not everybody.

Speaker 2 And other women have said it, you know, publicly, like, no, people generally, it's hard for people to celebrate other people and if

Speaker 2 they have something that resembles something that they want.

Speaker 1 No, yeah, I feel very

Speaker 1 ensympatico with you on this. And I'm enjoying asking you this because I'm also like,

Speaker 1 I think probably also like enjoying any wisdom I can get because I think you deserved that.

Speaker 2 And do you?

Speaker 1 Thank you. But you don't prepare for your right that feeling where you're so like, wow, holy shit.
There's not a lot of women who have gotten to this point. Like, and in your head, you're celebrating.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 I remember in my moment, it was less about in moments myself, more about like,

Speaker 1 I don't think I'm like ever going to get comfortable with the number being out there. Like, my first contract was, um, I remember when the number got leaked, and I was like,

Speaker 1 whoa. I'm so proud, though, that people know

Speaker 1 that it's there because it stands for so much, I thought, in my mind. But then you get this wave of negativity

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 I say it all the time. And it is a definite statement that men just do not experience this level of scrutiny when it comes to money.

Speaker 1 You have Jeff Bezos and Elon and Trump and all of these men get to just fucking shit money in front of our faces. And everyone thinks it's hot and powerful.
And they're so bad.

Speaker 1 And then the minute we get any of it, even in the ball, not even in the ballpark, we're just lightly getting a part of the conversation. It's like, oh,

Speaker 1 she doesn't deserve it. Either she's a bitch, she found a way to maneuver it because she's not worth that.
And it's like, it's a lot.

Speaker 2 It's, it's a lot in its patriarchy, in its misogyny. And that's what it is.
What, you know, sports players too. Sports players are celebrated for for their contracts, crazy contracts.
Not saying

Speaker 2 they're not worth it, but I mean, it's okay for them to celebrate it. And it's not okay.
And I think

Speaker 2 what helps me is

Speaker 2 to really focus on

Speaker 2 to not sort of to take myself out of it and stop thinking about myself and what people think of me. and just focus on what I do best, which is the work.

Speaker 2 Focus on the work and focus on when you make a lot of money as a woman, let's face it, you have power, right? So then how can I take that power and do good with it? How can I amplify someone else?

Speaker 2 How can I help someone else? How can I lift up someone else who doesn't sit in the position of privilege that I sit in?

Speaker 2 Fuck what people think of me. Who cares? You can't control that.
What you can do is use your power for good. And there's a lot of women probably in your field, you know, who would love

Speaker 2 a show on Uttenwell. Yeah.
And who would thrive and would do anything to get on your network and be under your umbrella. They just need a chance, you know.
So who cares what people say about you?

Speaker 2 You just keep doing you and use your power to lift up other people and your power wouldn't have been for nothing.

Speaker 1 Can you talk to me about what doubts you personally had had to push through in the moments where

Speaker 1 you needed to essentially go in and advocate for yourself of what you're worth to get to that point in your career where you're like, I deserve this number, whatever it was when you're sitting in those rooms with these people who are probably like, I don't know if you do.

Speaker 1 Can you talk to me about that?

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, sure. So I'm super lucky and I have a great team of lawyers and agents, right?

Speaker 2 And then here we go. Once again, Shonda Rhimes.

Speaker 2 I,

Speaker 2 being a woman I guess I'm conditioned to make sure that I'm not stepping on anybody's toes and I'm being polite which

Speaker 2 I guess people maybe who know me wouldn't say well bitch you are not polite but anyway

Speaker 2 I asked Shonda first I said just so you know she doesn't really have much to do with that stuff you know it's business affairs and whatever but i said to her i'm gonna go in and ask for this much are you cool with that

Speaker 2 just because i don't want to be disrespectful to her. I don't want to come off crazy.
And I want to let her know what moves I'm making because I do respect her. I am grateful to her.
And

Speaker 2 I do want to make sure I'm moving in the right way. Right.

Speaker 2 And so, and she was like, yeah, no one's going to give it to you. You have to ask for it.

Speaker 2 And so once I got her blessing to go ahead and do what I wanted to do, then I said to my team, I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2 And, you know, necessarily the business people might say, you don't need to ask ask her permission. You don't need to do that.

Speaker 2 And, and then I say, yeah, but I want to, because truth is, I wouldn't be here without her.

Speaker 2 So I always, back to my being raised in a mafia culture, I always want to pay respect to the people that deserve respect.

Speaker 2 And it makes me feel good to know I'm let, I'm letting you know how I'm moving because to me, that's polite. That's courteous.
I'm going to go do this. I don't want to make you look crazy.

Speaker 1 and it's communication and i just feel like it's good business and and people know i'm up front with them and i'm not shady i'm not i'm not shady at all i'm super upfront i always say it like it is may not always land well but like i'm transparent you know i also think something that you said in that that's really great advice for someone when they are going to advocate for themselves and you are going to someone like Shonda, who's again, also in a position of power, you in your gut, you were doing it out of a respect it wasn't because you're back against the wall you're like if she finds out she'll be mad it wasn't out of fear base and i think a lot of times when you're going to make a business decision for yourself or a relationship decision, whatever it is, checking in with yourself to be like, why am I actually doing this?

Speaker 1 You went to Shonda because she had, whether it was stuck her neck out for you or you, and you respected her and you had a great working relationship with her, like that was between you and Shonda where you genuinely wanted to do it.

Speaker 1 You didn't have to do it, but it meant something to you and her relationship.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's, you know, I believe in honor. Yeah.
And the other thing I believe in is sort of, I don't want anything that I don't deserve.

Speaker 2 I don't want anything I don't deserve. And I don't want anything that I haven't worked for.
And I'm happy to work for everything I have.

Speaker 2 And, and, and, and, you know, the, the CAA can, they print out a report, right? You cue rating or whatever it is. They spit it out and they let you know exactly how you move the needle.

Speaker 2 It's all in the data. You affect this many households.
Your voice is recognizable to this many people. The median income in that household is this.
They break it down.

Speaker 2 You see exactly how much

Speaker 2 this network makes for the parent company. I see exactly how much Gray's Anatomy makes for ABC Disney.
I get to see the number. And then, you know, it's my face, it's my voice.

Speaker 2 I've done so much work promoting the show all over the world for the past 20 years.

Speaker 2 It is, I am the, you know, Disney princess of that franchise. So, you know, I have this sort of data to back up.
I know the show has generated this much money.

Speaker 2 I definitely deserve a percentage of that. And you can do the same.
And, and, and that's what's challenging.

Speaker 2 And I've said this before, so I'm sorry if I sound redundant, but it is challenging for women to advocate themselves in different situations and jobs because if you cannot quantify what your...

Speaker 2 how what you do contributes to the income of that company,

Speaker 2 it's harder to fight for yourself and say, I deserve this. Well, you deserve this based on what? It is easier to quantify what you're worth when you see a hard number.

Speaker 2 So I advocate for women always fighting for themselves because most likely they are getting undervalued compared to what they're offering men.

Speaker 2 We know that also statistically and women of color and Hispanic women and Asian women, you know, we know all those numbers. So they're always undervalued.
So all women should always push the envelope.

Speaker 2 All anyone can say is no.

Speaker 1 Such a good fucking point about I

Speaker 1 the I remember the first contract essentially I was in. I was so green.
I was so new. I didn't know anything about bonus structure and download structure and all of that.
And it was used against me.

Speaker 1 I was being lied to about what I should be getting to for a bonus. And so it was this like push and pull of begging for numbers, begging for numbers.

Speaker 1 And I remember when I got into my next contract, that was something I had.

Speaker 1 personally made sure my lawyers put in the contract that every single data point that impacts this show and how much money it's making, I get to see because now I agree with you.

Speaker 1 It's like anyone out there can be out there saying, we don't, we don't deserve it or whatever. I'm looking at the numbers.

Speaker 1 These people aren't just fucking giving out fresh cash and free cash for jack shit. It's like these, no one is giving out money these days easily.
So it's like, you're right.

Speaker 1 I think if, especially if women, even if it's you're advocating for yourself to get the month, like buy quarterly check-ins and getting more like tangible information, information is power.

Speaker 1 And when people are trying to block you out of getting information, there is a reason for that.

Speaker 1 And the more that you can push to whatever field you're in, you got to try to go for it because that's how you're going to have leverage.

Speaker 1 So, and you talking about the male-female thing, which is obvious.

Speaker 1 Obviously, you and your co-star Patrick Dempsey, I know you talked about in the past of just like they kind of would use it as leverage in your negotiations. Like,

Speaker 1 what message did that send you of someone you're on camera with and you can't get the same?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, listen to be completely fair the television game was so different then and he had done like 13 pilots before me right that was my first pilot i had ever done and back in those days you know i don't know if they still do this or not um they had like you had a quote and with every tv pilot you did you got your quote which was whatever it was so if you've done 13 tv pilots And here we go,

Speaker 2 nothing personal to him, but just in general, only a man can fail, can have 13 failed TV pilots, and their quote still keeps going up, right? But in all fairness, his quote was what it was.

Speaker 2 He was a bigger star than I was at that point. No one knew who I was.
Everybody knew who he was. So

Speaker 2 he did deserve that money. I'm not saying he didn't deserve that money.
It just being that I was the namesake of the show, I deserved the same. And then that was harder to get.

Speaker 2 So I wasn't salty about him getting what he got. I was salty that they didn't value me as much as they valued him.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 they never will.

Speaker 2 And that goes for back to my earlier point of like, once you get to a certain level, you can advocate, you know, for other women on your

Speaker 2 platform or in your job, in your workplace. If you know, you know, that, that, that you're getting this much and all the other women are well beneath you, you can't just be okay with that.

Speaker 2 You can't just be like, yes, I'm winning. Cool, let's go.

Speaker 2 No, you really do have a responsibility to look and see what everybody else is making and use your power to say, listen, I appreciate what I got. This is amazing, but I happen to notice this.

Speaker 2 And I really think that all the women deserve a bump.

Speaker 1 That's, I mean, even hearing you back to the first question I asked you about this, like

Speaker 1 when your agent said that, or your lawyer, I forget which one you said, which was so profound of just being like,

Speaker 1 girl, no one is going to be that happy for you. How did you then just navigate the interpersonal dynamics on set of, yet again, knowing you deserved this,

Speaker 1 but there may be some awkwardness? Like, was it tough?

Speaker 2 It's like, again, yeah, I have some people pleasing element that I think all of us have, right? Well, not everybody, but a lot of people. I definitely have it.

Speaker 2 And yeah, it's not easy because what's what you see is, you know, you see the people, I was ready for it, right? Because he made that comment to me. So, what I saw was people who didn't say anything.

Speaker 2 You know, I got emails from all these people.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to name drop, but like, I got a lot of emails that day when that story came out from, you know, amazing people, people who were like, How'd you get my email? You know, congratulating me.

Speaker 2 And, um, but then the ones who are quiet, you know, who don't say anything, and you see it and you're like, okay, but you know, I don't know what to say. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

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Speaker 1 Can you talk to me about you're married to Chris and your career obviously was taking off? Simultaneously, you're dealing with Grace.

Speaker 1 There's these super, super, super, not only steamy moments, but I mean, like,

Speaker 1 there's the big, one of the biggest love stories, I guess you could say, of all time.

Speaker 1 How did your husband feel about you having this

Speaker 1 insane romance on screen? Like, was he chill with it? Was it like a conversation you guys ever had? Like, I guess, how do you deal with that as an actress?

Speaker 2 I mean, I think that it's

Speaker 2 Chris really never watched the show. That helped.
You know, it was better for him. He knew just not to watch.

Speaker 2 You know, he really, I was with him before Grays.

Speaker 2 So Gray's kind of came out of nowhere for us. And I just think we were on this crazy ride that we were just trying to hang on for dear life.
You know,

Speaker 2 the part,

Speaker 2 part of it that was more intense for me, even more than that, was

Speaker 2 back to the tabloid stuff of like how they started attacking him, you know, and bringing up. his past things

Speaker 2 and a record that he had and stuff that that he did. And, you know, we don't need to get into a whole racial breakdown here, but like,

Speaker 2 you know, the truth is, is young black men in this country aren't given the same opportunities as everybody else.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 a lot of people come from rough neighborhoods. I came from a rough neighborhood.
I, I, I did plenty of dirt when I was young. I won't get into that here.

Speaker 2 But, you know, the truth is, is publicly, he was sort of meant, you know, the racial component of our relationship was really something that he never asked for.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I was, I felt really more bad about that than I felt like the media was really mean to him and

Speaker 2 really biased because how dare this skinny, blonde, petite little woman be with this tall black man?

Speaker 2 The visual of that, I think, America wasn't ready for that. The male that I used to get,

Speaker 2 the racist, hateful, violent mail that ABC would get because of that.

Speaker 1 I literally got chills when you just said that because

Speaker 1 it's so disgusting and is

Speaker 1 like makes me emotional thinking about it because

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 beautiful family you have created and the beautiful relationship you must have to weather a storm that is

Speaker 1 all

Speaker 1 everyone else is bringing the negativity to you. Like you're two human beings, like you said, before Graze, like you're doing your thing.

Speaker 1 And then this thing explodes and you become on this pedestal that people want you to act a certain way, date a certain way, be a certain way. And if you don't kind of fall into that exact

Speaker 1 stereotype that they want want you to be, then you're failing. And I mean, I can't imagine the conversations.
And, but if anything, and correct me if I'm wrong, how much

Speaker 1 stronger in the end it made the two of your relationship, but you should have never had to go through that. Like, have you guys,

Speaker 1 have you, have you ever had to talk to your kids about this? Because, like, will they ever read these tabloids?

Speaker 2 Do you know what I mean? No, no, I don't think, I don't think so because the media is so different now. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think what's what's really helped is, well, Chris is biracial, right?

Speaker 2 His mother is white, Jewish, and he grew up in Boston in the 70s in a real, you know, super liberal, hippie sort of place, right? So he was very familiar, you know, obviously

Speaker 2 very familiar with

Speaker 2 that type of attention.

Speaker 2 um and either you know negativity

Speaker 2 boston historically was always a super racist place um So I'm not, you know, everybody knows that.

Speaker 2 So, you know, and I think that what's funny about, and Chris and I, because we come from the same place, we're like, you know, sort of two kids who made it out and then landed in Hollywood and like jumped on this ride.

Speaker 2 And we were just so, we just couldn't believe that, you know, something was actually happening, that it was great. We had this, I had this great job and we were getting to travel all over the world.

Speaker 2 And so,

Speaker 2 in a way, like we are, we had each other and he's a big reason how i got through all that was because he did understand because he is cut from the same cloth as as i am and i think that

Speaker 2 you know to your point in women in media or people see you and they have a certain idea about who you should be

Speaker 2 and for me you know people aren't used to

Speaker 2 you know i'm probably people see me and they think i'm they think they know who i am and they don't know that that you know I'm this like sort of tough you know half mafia half street fighter half you know what I mean I'm confusing to people because they see me and they think I'm one thing or they see Meredith and they think that's me and that's who I am but really I'm

Speaker 2 really very different right and probably should have been on the Sopranos more more than Grey's Anatomy well thank God you were on Grey's Anatomy okay because Sopranos would have been dope too oh I mean Thank God for Grey's.

Speaker 2 Thank God for Grace.

Speaker 1 But like, yeah, no, that would not have been bad.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about now

Speaker 1 the Good American Family. I'm thinking about Good American Family and I'm like sitting here and I'm like, 21 years of Greys? Yes.
21 years. Yeah.
This is your first project since that.

Speaker 1 How did you decide? Like, I'm going to invest.

Speaker 1 in a new character, in a new story. Was it even ever a question that you would or wouldn't do anything else?

Speaker 2 Well, I always, I didn't know what I was going to do. I just knew that I really couldn't do graze anymore.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 That it was to the point where I really just felt like, you know, an animal at the zoo.

Speaker 2 Like I, and even if, in, like I said, I'm a big believer in destiny and I thought if there's something else I'm meant to do, it's going to find me. And, uh, but, but I know I have to leave this.

Speaker 2 And sometimes, you know, you'd like opportunities to come while you're doing something so you have an easy exit, you have a soft landing.

Speaker 2 And, and it turns out I actually did get a soft landing because I still did both. Um, but I was sort of thinking like nothing's coming along.

Speaker 2 And I really believe in this town, if they want you, they will find you. I'm on TV for 20 years, the biggest show ever.
Like, everybody knows who I am.

Speaker 2 Clearly, these people don't want me, they're not coming for me. No one's offering me this, no one's offering me that.

Speaker 2 I mean, I've been offered a few things, obviously, but like could never make it work.

Speaker 2 And everyone's always just like, well, we're not going to offer Ellen this because there's no way she can get out of her Graves commitment.

Speaker 2 And, you know, for the most part, you shoot network television 10 months out of the year.

Speaker 2 So I had always committed to that. And then there's no room to do anything else.
Now it's a little easier because you don't, you shoot 15 episodes.

Speaker 2 You know, they've really reduced the orders on network television.

Speaker 2 But anyway, I had really stepped away and I had said, I really, I have to step away. I can't do it anymore.
And if nothing else comes, nothing else comes. It's my destiny.
No one wants me.

Speaker 2 That's okay. I can swallow that pill like I swallow everything else.
And at least I'm financially okay. And then I got the script,

Speaker 2 which Laura Holstein, who's sitting outside, she, I think, brought it to me with my agent.

Speaker 2 And my agent said, and I said, why would we do this? How will we pull this off? This is kind of tricky stuff.

Speaker 2 This world, social media, TikTok, documentaries, cancel culture, all of it, you know,

Speaker 2 it's all a lot. And this is tricky subject matter.
And this looks like walking through a landmine. I don't know why we would do this.

Speaker 2 And then he said,

Speaker 2 You've always said if there was something so different and so crazy in a character that was just a complete 180 from everything you've done, that you'd love to do it to challenge yourself and to prove that you can.

Speaker 2 And this is it. It does happen to be tricky subject matter, and we're dealing with child abuse and disabled children and a lot of neurodivergent children and a lot of tricky subject matter.

Speaker 2 But if you really want to take a turn and you really want to flip shit, Ellen, this is the moment right here.

Speaker 2 And so it's an offer. You know, they want you to do this and you should just go for it.

Speaker 1 Talk to me about leaning in, obviously, and preparing for this character.

Speaker 1 It is a very dark story. Like as a mother yourself,

Speaker 1 where was the in? Like, how did you find it within yourself to like enter into this character and be this character and bring it to life?

Speaker 2 I think the first thing I started with was every mother has the intention and the maternal biological crazy instinct. to literally do anything for your kids.

Speaker 2 You can lift a car off your kid if you had to, right?

Speaker 2 It's this otherworldly strength that you have to want to love your children, protect your children, and you will do anything to give them the best chance. So I started from that.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 what happens when you have the best of intentions and shit just doesn't go the way you thought it was going to go?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I think that

Speaker 2 things, we have a lot of expectations, and especially when people have children, you expect your child's going to be super cute. You're going to dress them up super cute.

Speaker 2 You're going to put them in little dresses and they're going to look just like you and they're going to do everything you say and they're going to go to bed when you tell them and it's just going to be awesome.

Speaker 2 But like sometimes you have a kid who's like, we're not doing that today. I'm going to throw this on the floor.
I'm going to knock this over, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2 And as a parent, like there's a lot attached.

Speaker 2 As a parenting is a lot about ego because you do expect this person to do everything you tell them to do. You want them to be exactly who you want them to be.
But the truth is, they're not.

Speaker 2 They come out who they are, and you have to deal with that.

Speaker 1 Is this a situation where you guys have been able to talk to the real family?

Speaker 1 Nope.

Speaker 2 Can't do any of that. And we really did create like our writers.

Speaker 2 And this is the interesting thing about fiction and drama and entertainment

Speaker 2 is we can create our own narrative and the idea that

Speaker 2 your truth is different than my truth. The two of us can sit here today.

Speaker 2 I mean, this is maybe a bad example because we're having a great time and it's Love Fest, but like we come away from this with two different versions of what happens, which is so often the case.

Speaker 2 You've been, you know, in situations with people where this person thinks this thing and this person thinks this thing. And you're like, wait, I didn't think that at all.
That's what she thought.

Speaker 2 I was doing this. And they took it as this.
So that's another one of our complicated human conditions. It's like your opinion and your version of events is different than mine.

Speaker 2 Everybody sees things differently. And we're certainly, you know, dealing with that in our country right now.

Speaker 2 So we're telling this story from a lot of different perspectives, which makes it complex and interesting because you think you know what this story is. People think they know what this story is.

Speaker 2 There was the movie Orphan that was done years ago, and people are like seeing the trailer and they're like, oh, I know what that is.

Speaker 2 No, you don't. Like, we're smarter than that.

Speaker 2 Give us some credit, please. We've thought of everything

Speaker 2 and we've been thoughtful and we're like, what if it was this? What if it was this? What if it wasn't this? What if it was this?

Speaker 2 And we're giving you a lot to think about.

Speaker 1 So I'm just so excited for you and for the world to see you in a different role. And I think it's, there is an anticipation that is exciting to know that

Speaker 1 we're not going to see Meredith Gray on screen. And that is, and I think the complete departure is such a fascinating take that you did.
And I'm excited that you went all the way to the other side.

Speaker 1 And I'm just excited for everyone in the world to watch this and enjoy it and ingest it and see you in a different light because you're so talented. We've all fallen in love with you through one lens.

Speaker 1 And now we have to adapt and change. And it's going to be such a fun roller coaster to watch this and to enjoy it.

Speaker 1 And selfishly now getting to know you today, I'm so excited for you that, like you said, especially for women, like how crazy that the first contract negotiation that you did for Gray's Anatomy, you were turning 40 and you're like, oh, well, this will probably be it.

Speaker 1 I guess I'll take the money. And now look at where you're sitting.

Speaker 1 And we are talking about 19 seasons. And then

Speaker 1 here you are and you got a new

Speaker 1 career moment that's about to just completely take off in a different direction. And here we go again.

Speaker 1 It's wild. It's really wild.
Last question. What do you hope your legacy is in this industry? And what it will be?

Speaker 2 That's a tough question. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because also what I love is like, did you see Jane Fonda on the SAG Awards? Like

Speaker 2 consistency, right? I love consistency. I love,

Speaker 2 yes, she's that bitch. She's exactly who she's always been.
She was that then, got canceled for it in the 70s when she was speaking up about us killing children in a war.

Speaker 2 And she's still.

Speaker 2 speaking up and she's still using her voice. So I guess, I guess that being said, I'd really like my legacy to be someone who used my voice, my privilege, and my power to help other people.

Speaker 1 It was more than an honor to sit with you today. I got my fangirlness out.
I learned so much. I felt so inspired.
I felt connected. Like, this was all the things an interview I could ever ask for.

Speaker 1 So, thank you so much, Ellen. You are one of one.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you.

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