971 - The Years of Whatever feat. Will Sommer (9/22/25)

All I'm gonna make is ill jumble.

All I wanna make is ill jumble.

Bringing me problems and pistols.

All I wanna be is hell

Hello, everybody.

It's Monday, September 22nd, and Chapo is back at it.

So, beginning this week, we'd like to begin now with a time of healing, a time of whatever.

And joining us to discuss the ongoing ramifications of the Charlie Kirk assassination and its political and cultural ramifications is our old pal, journalist Will Summer, now at the bulwark.

Will, welcome back.

Hey, thanks for having me.

You'd think I was in the third chair in the hotel room the way this bull work.

Get that on the screen.

Explaining that at the office.

That went over way better here than at a certain event that I opened for this weekend in Arizona.

You did not like that over there.

Well,

I'd like to begin today's show.

Yes.

Yes, in Arizona in yesterday, there was the, you know, tens of thousands of people, maybe, you know, tens of thousands of people filled the football stadium outside of Phoenix to take part in a public memorial service for Charlie Kirk.

And, you know, I'd like to begin with, yes,

our comments made by our president.

And, Will, ever since the Charlie Kirk assassination, people have been trying to come up with like, what's a pithy phrase to describe the American years of lead?

I've heard years of lard, years of lead paint, years of bread.

But I think President Trump really nailed it when he said a time of healing, a time of whatever.

So I'm going to refer to what's coming as the years of whatever.

But just to begin with

the memorial service, like, Will, from your perspective, like,

how does the MAGA movement see both

the assassination of Charlie Kirk and this now, like, like this, this period of public mourning and like public grief.

Like, what did you see at that memorial service?

And what does it tell us about how they see this cultural and political moment?

Yeah, I mean, a couple of things.

I think, number one, they see it obviously as a big,

a big religious opportunity.

I mean, I think every speech said it was a, it was going to be a revival, you know, that this is going to be this like old-time religion.

It struck me that one turning point USA person before the event said, gee, I sure hope the Trump family gets saved tonight.

So they're basically like, this whole thing is this big religious event.

Trump doesn't give a shit about that.

And so there's that aspect.

I mean, I also think, you know, I mean, there's obviously a lot of genuine feeling.

And we saw that from Charlie's wife.

But also, I think there's a lot of,

you know, it's clearly an opportunity for a lot of people.

And so there's kind of this scrabble for what Charlie Kirk meant, who was closest to Charlie Kirk, what he would have wanted had he lived.

Well, yeah, I want to talk about that schism and the sort of jockeying for position for like who will best speak for and control his legacy in the coming months and years.

But

to begin with, like, just

I got to start with Trump's comments at what was ostensibly a memorial service.

And what, you know, the thing about Trump is like, he's always going to do his thing.

But even so, I was a little...

kind of dumbstruck that like at several points in what was supposed to be I guess a eulogy he just went into the campaign pitch including talking about how

apparently, we are going to have an announcement, one of the biggest medical breakthroughs in the history of our country.

We think we found the answer to autism.

And tomorrow, Bobby and health experts are going to be talking about that.

By the way, I was interested to see, have they cured autism?

And the announcement today was that Tylenol causes autism.

Yeah, that's a surprising one.

You know, I think I've been kind of trying to get to the bottom of why they're picking on Tylenol like this.

Certainly the anti-vaccine people are seeing this as sort of a dodge.

They're like, you know, Tylenol is the scapegoat here.

They really want the vaccines to get to get busted.

And for whatever reason, RFK seems to really have zoomed in on Tylenol.

And they say they have a cure for autism as well, which is like a kind of folic acid.

But I don't think it's going to work out.

Yeah.

So instead of pregnant women taking Tylenol, they're recommending that they take folinic acid.

I just need to know, like, oh, between RFK and Dr.

Oz, like, who owns a company that sells folinic folinic acid supplements?

That's what I'm going to do.

I believe Dr.

Oz has an

Trump used

his moment speaking to talk about tariffs.

He made some comments about, you know, Charlie loved his enemies, but I don't.

I hate them.

So the religious revival is proceeding apace.

But like, just a few other highlights from the other speakers.

My personally, my favorite by far

comes from Benny Johnson, who said, quote, we must wield the sword for the terror of evil men.

So, Charlie, wielding his sword towards evil men once again.

Yeah, no,

we will light the path that leads to scruff.

The Trump speech,

I'm not going to say it's like, you know, greatest hits because actually, I have been like, for the past like two years or so, I've been pretty sick of all the people who are like, you know,

he's the last great American American stand-up.

And then you watch a press conference and he's just mumbling about how college students are anti-Semitic.

And it's like, boy, this is real funny.

This is hilarious.

But

this was.

I would say this is about as funny as any day in 2018.

What he did at

the funeral, only to be upstaged by like the fireworks they set off for when Erica went to speak.

I thought Stone Club was coming out.

Yeah, like,

I, like, I'm sure, like, I, I have no reason to, like, disbelieve her when she says she, like, forgives the Tyler Robinson guy, or, or, you know, that her feelings are genuine, but it's just, like, it's so fucking weird to do that.

It's like, like, at that point, at that point, you just have to declare that Protestantism isn't Christianity anymore.

Or at least, like, not in America.

Well, I mean, there's some speculation about Trolley's departure from

the path of Luther.

I'm going to get to that in a second, but

the comments, the speech at the funeral, or at the memorial service, rather, that I want to get into is, Will, how would you describe Stephen Miller's speech?

I mean, Stephen Miller,

there were a lot of tonal shifts here.

I mean, there were kind of a lot of like evangelical stuff.

You had Erica Kirk on one end, very forgiving, as you mentioned.

And then you had people like Stephen Miller and to a lesser extent, Trump and Benny Johnson, I'd include there, who really like, you know, we are out for blood.

I mean, Stephen Miller clearly, he was saying, you know, these people who took Charlie from us, they can't create anything.

They're this kind of like dead end and, you know, and they're, it was almost like orcs or something.

He was really like riled up about them.

And the thing I would add about the fireworks is.

TPUSA loves fireworks, right?

They use them in every chance they get.

And so like, like, if you ever watch a conference where like Benny Johnson comes out with the, with the memes, they'll shoot off like it's like a 4th of July.

And so when they did this, I was like, man, I think they just have a ton of fireworks.

Like, they know how to do this and they wanted to do it.

And then the head of TPUSA now, or kind of Charlie's producer, said, basically, we just like fireworks a lot.

You know, that's why we did it.

Honestly, that's the most offensible thing about that organization that I've ever heard.

Well,

you're in Stephen Miller's speech,

among some of the poll quotes from it, quote, you are nothing.

You can build nothing.

You can produce nothing.

You can create nothing.

We are the ones who build.

We are the ones who create.

Another quote, the storm whispers to the warrior that you cannot withstand my strength.

And the warrior whispers back, I am the storm.

Erica is the storm.

We are the storm.

That's from Facebook.

That's from fucking Facebook.

That's like

guys in Bangalore are sending that to each other on WhatsApp every morning.

Like, what does he mean?

We're the bit, like, hasn't Stephen Miller worked in politics like his entire life?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think Alan West, when he ran the Texas GOP, he was kind of the first guy to really get out front in that like, we are the storm, like the warrior

whispers back there.

I miss Alan West.

He was just, I mean, talk about just being too early.

And then one of his final comments was, we will achieve victory for our children, for our families, for our civilization, and for every patriot who stands with us.

I mean, a lot of people have noted some of the, I don't know,

homages that this speech made to a certain other speech made by a certain other political communicator following the death of Horst Wessel.

But when Stephen Miller says our children, does he mean white children or like literally the kids that he's sharing with Elon?

He says accusation.

The bulwark does not stand by this.

Well, he says, our lineage and our legacy hails back to Athens, to Rome, to Philadelphia, to Monticello.

Our ancestors built the cities.

They produced the art and architecture.

They built the industry.

Well, not his ancestors specifically, but you know the ones he's talking about.

But Will, this gets back to like they clearly feel the wind, like this assassination has put like some wind in their sails.

And I'm not saying that they weren't already planning to, this is already how they saw themselves and how they saw the maggot movement, but they feel a sense of opportunity and revitalization with this.

We're like, you know, Jimmy Kimmel, they got him yanked off the air.

Now TikTok is about to be sold to a bunch of Trump billionaires and Israel.

But like they feel that this is a moment in which they get to remake the culture.

And like, how are they pursuing that?

And like,

like, how are they, how are they taking advantage of this opportunity?

Yeah, I mean, I think the Republicans clearly see this as sort of like a second win for the Trump administration.

You know, we're putting the Epstein stuff in the past.

We're putting the big, beautiful bill, which kind of flopped.

We're moving on.

And as you said, I mean, they're on the verge of taking over TikTok.

Larry ellison is gonna run both cbs and i think more importantly cnn uh you know you have all these the the walls are kind of closing in on on liberal civil civil society uh and so i mean look we don't exactly know what the how they're going to capitalize on this but i mean you can look at stephen miller's speech there's a lot of like we're going to go after these liberal networks who um i don't know if it was at the memorial or something else but people are saying like um you know these people who are printing these signs you know who's paying for the protest signs i mean that's like pretty standard free speech stuff.

And they're talking about pursuing people based on that.

But I do think there's also, again, there's this religious aspect where they see, you know, the pews are packed.

And the, you know,

if you really want to make a buck right now, if you're a liberal commentator, if you could just tweet like, I went to the church, church for the first time last weekend, like I'm a Republican now, you know, you see these people doing this and getting a huge amount of retweets.

So it's a big,

I think they think that the tent has really been expanded and a lot of people are being turned to the right because of this.

Well, one thing I'm curious about is

I was during the election and in the immediate aftermath, I was pretty interested in people who

people on the online right who sort of staked out a position early as someone who was either decisively to the right of Trump or uh was maybe branding themselves as more moderated in some ways and appealing to a broader audience, but still sort of attacking him from the right.

Nick Fuentes would be like the first guy I would think of who's doing that.

Where with him, it really seemed like he kind of

he made an educated guess that the austerity stuff was going to be very unpopular.

It has been interesting seeing all those people jump on this in just the same way.

I mean, a ton of them, like Charlie Kirk was their biggest enemy for like most of the last five years.

But

out of, out of anyone on the right, specifically like people in the Tucker or the Fuentes lane, are there people who are at least off the record

will show that they're cognizant of the fact that like

things were not going well before this?

And that

they might not be going well quite soon.

Yeah, I mean, look, when I talk to Republicans in the aftermath of this, I mean,

they're extremely mercenary.

I mean, these right-wing media personalities.

I mean, they're saying, can Herr Erica Kirk hold on?

Oh, I don't know.

She can.

I think her speech helped dispel some of that, at least for the short term.

But there's a sense that really, like, the wolves are circling TPUSA.

You know, yeah, I mean, Nick Fuentes, I think, you know, he was just bashing the memorial.

He's, he, he kind of pushed his lifeboat out months ago.

I mean, he was saying, you know, this is a bunch of, you know, evangelical Protestant sickos.

You know, why can't they let this guy rest in peace?

But again, I mean, you mentioned Tucker Carlson, who got up there and basically said, you know, those hummus-eating Jews, like, you know, they sure love to kill people makes you think, doesn't it?

And so there's a lot of, you know, you have these people who are positioning themselves weirdly as like not necessarily anti-Trump, but like a little apart from Trump, people like Candace Owens, as you said, or or can't or Tucker Carlson.

And I think they're

laying the groundwork for 2028, where are they going to fit in in a post-Trump world?

You know, and as I've written, I think there's this sense that Trump is kind of a lame duck.

It's not hitting anymore with the audience like it used to.

Is there anyone in the Trump orbit proper?

Like anyone who,

I mean, probably not, it probably wouldn't be anyone who had as direct a line to him as like Charlie Kirk did, but someone who could at least maybe get FaceTime, who

you know, is capable of stating the obvious around like maybe some of Trump's economic woes.

Or is that just

it's that was a Trump one relic.

There's just none of that left anymore.

Yeah, I think it's all yes men, like all around him.

And even in right-wing media, I mean, you know, you, you guys mentioned it's weird with Charlie Kirk because he has understandably become so deified on the right.

But, you know, even in the past couple of weeks, it's not like people, even in right-wing media, were like, oh, Charlie Kirk is this universally beloved figure.

I mean, Laura Loomer was attacking him.

He was seen as kind of a dupe for Trump.

I mean, we famously, Trump called him and said, hey, stop talking about Epstein.

And he said, I I don't want to talk about Epstein anymore.

We're all moving on with our lives.

But like,

that's interesting.

Like, but because despite these fissures existing before and now, like, perhaps widening, in his murder, like, he clearly has become a martyr, like, and the bloody shirt is being waved.

And, Will, I'm wondering if, like, what you think of the comparison?

Because, like, obviously, like, they're, they're very focused on changing the culture.

And, like, and I think a lot of the way they talk about this, they're, they're talking about it, like, it's in response to what they they saw in like 2020, 2021.

And like, I think they view Charlie Kirk like not as George Floyd, but they look at this as like their George Floyd moment in that like here is like a sainted victim who is the victim, you know, who was killed by violent systematic hatred.

And like now they want this like watershed moment where they, where they're literally like, say his name, write his name on this coffee cup, Starbucks worker.

You have to.

We have to like change the way people think and we have to police

the way people think and interact with each other in public.

What do you make of that comparison?

Yeah, I mean, they'll make that very openly.

They'll say, you know, this is our George Floyd, you know, while at the same time also saying, you know, this is our Martin Luther King.

I saw one guy say, you know, isn't it amazing that Charlie Kirk's funeral has

made such a bigger impact than it was watched more than Martin Luther King or JFK's funeral?

And it's like, I don't know.

I don't know if that's true.

But there's been this,

as you said, I think they see this.

They kind of have,

they they have this kind of self-righteous moment where they think they can

enforce norms.

I mean, as we saw with Jimmy Kimmel, or they can, you know, consequence culture.

Exactly.

And, I mean, they really like, you know, this is what we see from

what they call the new right, where basically they think the right of the old days, even the first Trump administration was too caught up in things like, you know, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, or, you know, trying not to be hypocritical or concerned that liberals would do it to them when they're in power.

And so now they, people like J.D.

Dance, Peter Thiel, Mencius Moldbug, they see themselves as really like the point of the state when they have the power is to crush their enemies without any concern about

the niceties of American history or precedent.

And so I think that's what we're seeing here.

And the other thing is like they just really hate that the left has such a big slice of the culture.

And so they think they need this state power and this kind of nastiness to take it back.

Just like one small digression on like exercising this cultural power.

Have you been following this stuff about how Starbucks has had to officially say that you can name and call yourself Charlie Kirk and that they will write Charlie Kirk on your coffee cup for you?

Because there was this staged thing over the weekend where someone was trying to claim that

the Starbucks employee wrote loser on their coffee cup when they said their name was Charlie Kirk.

I guess what I'm asking is like, how did Starbucks employees become like the sin eaters for Blue America, like all over the rest of the country?

Because like,

if you see, if you're a conservative and you see something in the news that the libs did that piss you off, you just go to your local Starbucks and, like, is it because Starbucks is like coded as like a liberal brand and the people who work at Starbucks are like young people?

I swear to God, we had this exact same conversation, like, nine years ago, like, in the first year of the show.

Like, this was going on back then.

I mean, I, I remember what we said back then was just that like Starbucks is the only place left where like people still sort of hang out.

I think that's part of it.

Yeah, I know what you're saying, Felix.

I mean, I feel like there's something at least something in the past of like making, you know, writing some name on the, on the cup.

Um, yeah, I mean, and the unique thing here, right, is that Charlie Kirk had this specific order.

It was like tea with honey, I think, uh, that supposedly soothed his voice from all the talking.

And so they go and they say, you know, I want the lemonade tea with honey for Charlie.

And then

the idea of a Starbucks employee writing, loser, you know, while funny.

Apparently, I guess they they checked the security cameras and it didn't happen.

I'm sure they were really satisfied with that.

But I mean, it's, I think maybe it's, you know, I think you were pointing at this, Will, is that they're kind of this like blue-coated thing, but they're everywhere, including in Red America.

And so you can go and like, this is probably where your local liberal is working.

I'm going to start doing that but for Cracker Barrel, and I'm going to make them serve me liberal food and have liberal Tchotskys for sale in

the restaurant slash store.

I guess like the last thing I want to talk about, like the Charlie Kirk Memorial.

Like, okay, you've got Stephen Miller and his Goebbels-like speech about using this to purge all enemies of goodness and, you know, like, and destroy conclusively, like, the enemies within the state.

You've got the WWE-style pyrotectics.

You've got...

Donald Trump, who, like, transparently can't be bothered to give a shit about this dead guy who he's supposed to be mourning.

And then you just have like the overall tenor of it.

And like, this is what I would describe as, and like, the generally the religious tenor of it, this is what I would describe as something Felix and I have discussed.

Like, you've heard the term the inshittification of the media or the internet.

This to me is the Garth enisification of American politics.

And by that, I mean, like, when I see things on the news that, like, 10 years ago, if I was writing a screenplay or a comic about what America would be like 10 years in the future in some dystopian state, I would go, That's too on the nose.

That's hack.

And I was thinking about that in light of the AI-generated Charlie Kirk memorials that are are being played at churches where they like show him talking to St.

Paul and other martyred saints and people are crying watching this.

I'm thinking of the giant statue of the golden statue of Trump holding a Bitcoin.

And just generally

this whole spectacle of

the complete and final merging of Christianity or religion with politics.

Because like,

do you see like the way the Christian right, like, they've, like,

in many ways, the election of Trump and like his dominance in the party has really like sidelined evangelical Christian conservatism.

But like they've taken it in stride, and I think they've totally absorbed this new paradigm.

Like, what do you make of that?

And like, how, like, how is religion changing as it relates to politics on the right?

Yeah, I mean, just to cite a couple more examples of that, I mean, of the spectacle just in the past week, I mean, we got more details on the UFC fight on the White House lawn that we're going to get, the, you know, the weigh-in at the Lincoln Memorial.

And then also in in Oklahoma, there's a bill to mandate every university have a Charlie Kirk square.

You get a choice.

You can have a Charlie Kirk at the desk statue, or you can have a Charlie Kirk with his family statue.

And so

I think the right has seen its operation, or the Christian right has seen an opportunity to, I mean, I think it's no surprise that they have wanted to enforce their values.

you know, in the, whether it was the second Bush administration or what have you.

And Trump, I mean, is obviously willing to be much more authoritarian than past presidents.

So, I mean, they're they're on board.

I mean, I think it's a broad coalition.

And, you know, religiously, they often hate each other.

I mean, between Jews and these kind of trad casts, the nude Catholic converts and the evangelicals.

And I think we'll get into that about the Charlie Kirk legacy.

But, I mean,

they're all kind of united in this idea of crushing the left.

Before we get into that, I want to talk a little bit about some of the details of the shooting itself.

And like the thing that struck me this weekend was the comments made by Turning Point USA spokesman Andrew Colvett, who said that speaking to Charlie Kirk's surgeon, it says, according to Colvett, the surgeon explained that the round absolutely should have gone through, which is very, very normal for a high-powered, high-velocity round.

I've seen wounds from this caliber many times, and they always just go through everything.

This would have taken down a moose or two down, an elk.

And then he said, like, Charlie Kirk's...

bone was so healthy and so impressive that he's like a man of steel and he saved the lives of others by having his spine stop this bullet bullet from creating an exit wound.

Like, well, what is going on with there?

And of course, like, how is this fueling speculation about, I don't know, a possible alternate theories for this shooting?

Yeah, I mean, the conspiracy theories on this are insane.

I mean, you know, on one hand, you know, you can't think of an assassination that was more covered in terms of video, but there's still, there are all these things going around.

I mean, for one thing, after the shooting, a guy grabbed the one of the camera that was even closer to Charlie Kirk with a video we haven't seen, presumably, because it was insanely gruesome.

And people are are like, we got to know what happened to that camera.

Candace Owens says, I got to see the camera.

You know, in terms of the,

oh, the, right.

So, so the, the Andrew Colvett is addressing why was there no, no exit wound.

And look, I try to be patient with the turning point USA people.

Obviously, they've gone through this like incredibly traumatic thing.

But I was reading this and I was just like, all right.

Basically, he says, Charlie's bones were so uniquely healthy and dense that they stopped.

Normally the bullet would have gone through and hurt someone else, but Charlie's body protected those bystanders by catching, by stopping the bullet.

And then, as you said, he quotes his Charlie's doctor saying, he's like the man of steel.

And of course, that, you know, there's this weird thing where they're trying to address these conspiracy theories because they exist very much in conspiracy theory land themselves on the right.

But they're only fueling them because people say, well, wait a minute.

You know, I wasn't really paying attention to this stuff about like the mystery gunman or the angles, but now you're saying that his body was uniquely strong and that's that's why there's no evidence of an exit wound yeah i mean like look i i am neither here nor there on uh what like look

i think if you if we were looking at this like cogently uh soberly um

if they were capable of

you know just pulling off a hit and for the most part keeping it under such wraps that like everyone is just sort of chasing chasing their tail looking for breadcrumbs you'd figure they would do it more often on the other hand i think it's funny to accuse people and and entities of doing it

but this is

this is this made me believe that like something is up more than just about anything else i'd seen yeah i mean like was there an exit wound or not like

apparently not i mean at least according to turning point i mean the like it's obviously it's not clear from the video, um, but you know, there's been a lot of, and I should say, I mean, Cash Patel has really latched on to this.

I mean, over the weekend, he said, look, we're looking at everything, different angles for the guns.

If you think there was a hand signal that was being sent, we're looking at that.

You know, I'm in the Telegram chats too.

I mean, you know, it's essentially along those lines.

I mean,

he's basically saying, I mean, he lays out stuff that goes beyond, you know, they've said, oh, they're looking at who else knew about this or whatever, but he's really like, we're looking at every kind of crazy idea you might have.

I mean,

what I'll say on this is, you know, like, I try to hold lightly explanations for current events that I find like instinctively entertaining or emotionally satisfying.

I will say this.

They are trying to do everything possible to make me believe there is a conspiracy involved in this or that there's something more than the official

Sort of the official narrative here, which is also one that like I don't dismiss out of hand or find completely ludicrous, like the official narrative being essentially the plot of Dog Day Afternoon, except for a political assassination instead of a bank robbery.

But, like, I gotta bring it up.

The other thing that really just made me raise an eyebrow was Netanyahu just saying out of nowhere, we didn't kill Charlie Kirk and talking about it for like several minutes.

And I was just thinking, why would you like I understand like the accusation is out there, but he wasn't asked.

And, like, when has he ever commented on any of the other people that he's supposedly not killing?

Yeah, it's like, it's like walking into a job interview and being like, I had nothing to do with Columbine.

Yeah.

I mean, this is where I think Nyahu's clearly like extremely podcast-brained.

I mean, he's hanging out with the Nelk boys, all this stuff.

And so, you know, obviously he's watching Candace Owens and Tucker make these insinuations and he puts this video out.

I mean, it's really bizarre.

I mean, he obviously is bombing half the Middle East.

He's busy with other things, you would think.

But, and, of course, as you said, Will, I mean, the Mossad is blamed for just about everything that goes on.

And this is the one specifically that he has to rebut.

Well, okay, well,

let's talk about that because like much of the, like, the, the, this schism over, like, the legacy of what is MAGA, what is Charlie Kirk's legacy, and, like, did he make a turn, or was he about to make a turn against Israel?

Like, that, that seems to be like

this, this, this schism that's going on right now that you've covered does seem to be like, what will determine the legacy of MAGA in its future direction?

Like, is it America first or is it Israel first?

Which country is coming first?

So like, could you describe, what are the contours of this split?

And like, who is on what side?

And like, how are they debating like the terms of

this right now?

Yeah.

So, I mean, this is a split that really hinges on, was Charlie Kirk a really kind of like establishment, pro-Israel, Ben Shapiro, like Republican up until his last day?

Or was he turning on Israel?

Was he growing more skeptical?

And then sort of relatedly, was he becoming an economic populist?

Was he becoming Catholic, all this stuff?

And so the factions here are you have on one hand, Erica Kirk, the widow, I think she's supposed to address this later this week, kind of rebut Candace Owens.

You have people like kind of the Turing Point USA organization.

You have a lot of pro-Israel pundits.

But the real, the real action here is on the other side with Candace Owens, who's like insanely anti-Semitic on top of everything else, very anti-Israel, and Tucker Carlson, and then like Roger Stone.

And so you have, they're saying, well, Charlie in his last days, he was growing critical of Israel.

Bill Ackman had him out to this kind of influencer retreat in the Hamptons and harangued him about Israel.

He was being threatened.

Oh, he had to go to Israel, all this stuff.

And then there's this implication that, oh, and then, you know, a month later, he ends up dead.

You know, make of that what you will.

I obviously, I don't think that like

I obviously think Israel is like morally capable of fucking just about anything, right?

But it's just the weird thing about this one is it's just, it's such a weird choice for them to make, you know?

Like they are obviously plugged in to the right wing, the American right-wing scene, but it just seems like if you were trying.

The basic theory that I see people put out is that it is they did this to like take the heat off of them, which

A,

like how has, how has heat being on them prevented them from being able to do whatever the fuck they wanted with either Trump or Biden?

And B, it's just like, if you were trying to create a distraction,

I mean, wouldn't you, like, why wouldn't you kill like

Sabrina Carpenter?

Like someone more famous?

I know, it just, it's, it's, it's a weird one.

I would have to see, I would have to see a more developed theory, you know?

I agree.

This one one isn't really hitting right, like even by conspiracy theorist standards.

I mean, I think that you know, there, there's not really, I don't think, anything that ties Israel to this.

Um, you know, it's interesting, I guess, that you would think the trans girlfriend roommate angle would satisfy the right, but they seem to be not really into it.

They seem to be like, Yeah, you know, we gotta, we gotta, there's gotta be a second shooter, there's gotta be more.

Well, yeah, I mean, like, I it seemed like there was a lot of skepticism about the official narrative of who the shooter is, like, why the shooting happened on the right initially, because

in like the early hours, they were like, we need public execution for whoever did this.

And then it turned out to just be like a white suburban kid.

And they were like, okay, well, it's time for forgiveness.

And I guess like, look,

I wouldn't put anything past him.

I'm not putting my record down too hard on any theory right now.

But like...

My problem with the Israel theory is that it does depend

heavily on the idea of Charlie Kirk having some sort of moral revelation about Israel's conduct.

Or like, I would require him feeling bad about large numbers of non-white people being killed.

So, like I said, like, I mean,

what is the there there for the idea that Charlie Kirk was perhaps, I don't know, turning over a new leaf as it regards United States policy towards Israel?

In sort of in early August, he was getting slightly critical of Israel.

Basically, he was saying young people are getting kind of fed up with, even young conservatives are getting fed up with how long this war has gone on.

Time to wrap it up.

And then he goes to this influencer retreat.

Now, Candace Owens claims Bill Ackman confronted him.

Other people who are there, and by the way, are probably very, very well financed by the Turning Point USA organization and donors say, No, that didn't happen.

Um, but then the next day, Charlie Kirk goes on Megan Kelly's show and he's just like, I'm sick of these Israel people.

He's like, I they've treated me in a repulsive way for even voicing mild criticism.

So, he definitely, I mean, it seems like something happened in that retreat or around that time that really riled him up.

I mean, I just like I've

I'm sure he did like he did like come to loggerheads with people from the Israel lobby absolutely but the idea that he had like a genuine change of heart and not just that he's he is a

a near lifelong media figure whose specific thing is is that he communicates with young people

like obviously it's him realizing oh shit i can't i can't make jokes about how they'll get thrown off the a building in gaza anymore people under 58 don't like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think there's a lot to that.

I mean, and also, you know, he has this kind of like Wario version of himself, Nick Fuentes, who is hoovering up media appearances and followers based on, you know, often being anti-Semitic and hating Israel.

And so in the past, you know, we've seen, we, we saw him pivot to the right because of Nick Fuentes.

And so presumably in this case, he was looking around and kind of seeing which way the wind was blowing and saying, gosh, you know, if I'm like just 100% hardcore pro-Israel all the time, I'm going to start losing my

Well, you bring up Fuentes, who I think is like one of the more interesting and one of the more, like, not to give him too much credit, but one of the more intelligent communicators and broadcasters on the right.

But like, when this happened, like, did you like...

Did you see like traces of the griper war?

Because when it happened, like, Nick Fuentez like shook and he was like, God, please hold Charlie in your, please hold Charlie in heaven.

Like, please, we condemn all violent acts.

Like, it seemed like he was cognizant of the fact that like there's a possibility that the trigger man could have been one of his followers.

Cause you described what was the Griper war and like what was the basis of the sort of conflict or animosity between Charlie Kirk and Nick Fuentes?

Yeah, sure.

So back in 2019,

there was this growing tension between Charlie Kirk and Nick Fuentes, both of whom are young people whose whole thing is that they can get

young men, particularly to become conservative.

One of whom, Charlie Kirk, is extremely well financed, very pro-Israel, very establishment.

And the other, Nick Fuentes, who is in Charlottesville, very racist and anti-Semitic and much scrappier.

And so Charlie Kirk, excuse me, Charlie Kirk said at one point, you know, we should start, anyone from another country who comes here and gets a degree should get a green card.

And Nick Fuentes uses that to seize and get the Groipers to start crashing turning point events.

And they prove to be completely defenseless.

Dan Crenshaw is getting shouted down by like random racist teens.

And so basically Charlie Kirk says, oh, yikes, and suddenly becomes much more restrictionist on immigration, much more supportive of eventually, you know, a ban on third world immigration.

And so basically Nick Fuentes won there.

And I think it was clear that Charlie Kirk was kind of fleeing from him.

And so, you know, as you said, I think in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, Nick Fuentes, I think like a lot of people was like, you know what?

This could have been a Grouper.

This could have been a Fuentes fan.

And obviously they had had these previous clashes verbally

at campus events.

And so who's to say that one nut who really loved Nick Fuentes hadn't done this?

And so he starts saying, you know, if you use violence, I disown you.

He was taking this weird, like, statesman-like tone of like, we need to, this is a time for peace, positioning himself as like Charlie's heir.

So clearly he saw that as a possibility.

Now, there was some speculation that Tyler Robinson, the alleged shooter, like was a Groiper.

We talked about that on our show last week.

And like, I've, in my opinion, determined that like there's not much much there to go on like where did that rumor come from and like what is being used of evidence that tyler robinson had groiper affiliations yeah they're gonna hate this one over on blue sky um yeah basically the um

you know it was it was interesting there was like his a name was his name was announced on a friday and then i was offline for like two hours and i came back online and people were just like well groiper it's confirmed and i thought well what what's the evidence here so i looked and i was kind of shocked with how little evidence there was i mean obviously tyler robinson was was even then known to be really into video games

and into memes.

And people, I think, made this jump that that proved that he was a groiper.

You know, I hate to be like the meme expert, but there was a point where, you know, there was this picture of him in Halloween doing this like

Slavic squat, Adidas track suits, squatting meme.

And then someone had paired that with a Pepe doing the same squat.

And so that kind of thing.

Pepe's a different frog.

That's what I was was saying.

I was like screaming at my phone.

And so people saw that and they said, oh, wow,

this is a Pepe.

And so it has to be a Groiper.

And this guy's a Groiper.

But, you know, these are, the Pepe meme of doing the squat and Tyler Robinson are splitting off from the same mother meme.

They're not necessarily doing a Pepe meme.

And so it's, and you sound insane bringing this up, but like, but people, I would say, I was like, I don't know if that's a Pepe thing.

And, you know, people get really riled up about it.

I mean, understandably, because Donald Trump seems to want to use this shooting to crush 50% of the country politically.

And so, and yet, but I mean,

I guess I would just say that the idea that he was into memes and into video games, I think people saw as like proof that he's a Fuentes follower.

But really, I mean, you know, this is a world Felix, I think, is very in touch with in terms of the video games.

That's like 90% of young men now.

And so, you know, I think people were really, we're really jumping to conclusions there.

Yeah, it's like the default hobby for anyone under like 30 now.

I mean, we had Spencer talk about,

you know, what a meme kid is.

And I was very glad that we had him on to explain that to,

you know,

some of the elder millennials and some of those that.

Because

it is like, I do think that there is a millennial shaped prism.

that a lot of us uh can mistakenly view things through where we automatically assume that everything,

whatever anyone's identity, whatever their hobby is, they fall on some

politicized spectrum of that hobby.

And for

people much younger than

us,

I would say, I mean, again, how could you possibly quantify this right now?

But I would say you're more likely to find people who are entirely checked out one way or the other, just entirely exhausted and grossed out by the entire process.

And maybe have a few beliefs about a couple things that either, you know, affect them or that, you know, they heard their dad talk about, but they are not as

overt, like they are not,

you know, throwing up their banner in the same way that

the generations immediately previous to them may have.

And Will, like, do you think that's why, like, you said earlier that, like, it seems like on the right,

the official story or narrative of the alleged shooter and their and his motivations doesn't seem to be satisfying them in the visceral way that they were hoping for.

Do you think it's because of this kind of meme vertigo and like just sort of meaningless context signifiers?

That like there's nothing really for anyone to sink their teeth into, at least as far as the official alleged narrative goes.

Yeah, and I think the news cycle moves so quickly now that even with something like a major event like this, I think it was, they were clearly really geared up to like imprison trans people over this.

And then they saw that it was like, well, it's like kind of at this distant connection, you know, the trans roommate maybe didn't know.

At the point where he was like a white guy, they were just, oh, oh, well, maybe what's going on on that Discord server?

I think, you know, if we talk about people not understanding like the Gen Z internet, I think that's another aspect of it where it was like, this Discord server must be like the new weather underground.

And then you see, you know, Kenny, Ken Klippenstein posting the transcript where they're saying, like, anyone play Helldivers?

And then he goes, by the way, I shot Charlie Kirk.

And everyone goes, uh,

um, and

you know, I think both sides were really like eager to dig through the online record here.

And it turned out there really wasn't much of one.

Um, at the same time, I think we can often, you know, I think there are a lot of kind of like self-proclaimed meme experts, internet understanders, who will be like, you know, this is a Helldivers meme.

This is the furry meme.

And then he did write, like, hey, fascist on the bullet casing, a legendary.

No, apparently it's not from Helldivers.

This is Gordon Dispencer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've got two hours logged on Helldivers, Felix.

I think, you know, yeah,

I do think that does appear to be.

If it is from Helldivers, I think it's a little oblique.

Spencer, what do you think?

There was a miscommunication there.

So it says, hey, fascist catch, and then there's a series of arrows.

The series of arrows is from Helldivers.

Hey, fascist catch, I don't think is.

This has been...

This is my correspondence from doing some more digging into this.

Okay,

thank you.

I have just, I've been playing The Phantom Pain exclusively for the past 10 years,

thinking that if I

clip the game the right way and expose Venom's penis, I will finally get all of us chapter three, peace, the thing we've been waiting for for 10 years.

Well, it's like there's another sort of

fractal or subset of the right that I'm interested in.

And that is like,

you know, on the far right, there's like, I guess, like a subset of, you know, the dissident right or white nationalists who are, I would say, to the right of Charlie Kirk, but also hate the Groipers.

And like, this, by this, I mean sort of like the tealite wing of the party that are like, you're Bronze Age perverts, your Steve Sailors,

people of that nature.

Like, does this third group factor into like all of this jockeying for position?

And like, if so, how have they been reacting to this assassination?

Yeah, so sort of like Dementius Moldbug,

the people who are really like eager to staff a future fascist administration.

And I think they're like, they're like, let's go.

This is like the new right.

Let's go.

Let's crush these liberals.

We have our excuse.

And I think they're very open about that.

I mean, they called it like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to crush the liberals.

And they're very frustrated with the Candace Owens, the Tucker wing.

I mean, Candace Owens is clearly doing, I would say, like a pretty wild exploitation of her friend's death.

But then they're looking at her and saying,

hey, you know, let's just, let's just pretend we discovered some liberal NGOs that finance this or something like that.

You know, there was one guy, this captive dreamer guy on X who's who's very big.

He has the David Koresh picture as his profile.

And he literally just said, he's like, why are these guys talking about Israel?

This is our chance to impose, to just crush these people under our boot.

So there's, I think, a lot of frustration from these much more clear-eyed, would-be fascists about that.

It, I mean, like, I,

I, it's like you know, I there's no point in trying to predict the future and what you can get if you're right, but um

It almost feels like with some of the

not Candace Owens because she's just you know

I I think

what I call what she does is having fun

Some people call it a lot of other stuff.

I think she's having a blast.

Well, she's she's also the only one of them that like seems to have actually liked Charlie Kirk.

that's very rare in con ink for two people to actually be friends but um some of the other ones it does seem like

maybe maybe they don't even have a fully developed theory of you know how or why israel did it but they're just cognizant of the fact that like

spending like two weeks going, look what they did to him.

This is what they wanted.

And then they turns out to just be like a fucking stupid 20-year-old like everyone else who has ever done something like this in fucking the history of America.

Like that, that's why Luigi was a big deal was because he was the first one of these guys who's like randomly killed a public figure who didn't have, who didn't have like 900 posts on like the subreddit for guys who have like blue smegma.

He was like the first first one of those guys who wasn't just completely confused and idiotic and was like kind of telegenics like they're all like Thomas Crookes where it's like like, they like people who you can't, you can't evince any type of coherent ideology or identity from them because they're just fundamentally confused people who just, it's like their scripting got fucked up when they were born.

God fucked up their scripting.

And they'll do things like go to January 6th and while they're there, become like lifetime NPR pledges while making $9 an hour.

It is bizarre seeing, I mean, there's this real desire to find a network, to find, you know, other people who knew about the shooting, supposedly, um, but you know, or what the motivation was.

But, and, you know, you mentioned Thomas Crooks.

I mean, that guy, they're still talking about the Butler assassin saying, you know, we don't know anything about this guy.

What were his motivations?

Or the Las Vegas gunman?

And it's like, well, you know, this is kind of the thing with mass shootings or these assassinations.

I mean, we've seen this for decades.

These guys really just sort of emerge and they have these pointless attempts at violence.

I mean, even like Paddock,

again, like with Paddock, I don't think, like, motive is not like, I don't think that's the weirdest thing.

Like, obviously, it's just like

the idea of a 60-year-old rich guy who like went into the red, just

exploding his serotonin,

doing the equivalent of doing Molly every day for 10 years to his brain, but with a video poker, and then just hauling off and trying to kill as many people as possible.

That's not the most bizarre thing I've ever heard.

But at least with that one.

I mean, the real maddening thing about Haddock is that it is how Brace described it brilliantly.

It's like when you make a suicide with a soda machine, it's two inches of every type of soda, but you can't, not enough to tell which is the dominant flavor.

There's just a little bit of

root beer.

Yeah, there's just a little bit of every possible angle.

And there's just enough juicy stuff, but not enough of a follow-up.

With Thomas Crooks, it's like,

there's only one soda that went in this, and it's idiot, so it's stupid guy soda.

The same soda that all these guys are.

Just going back to like, Will, going back to this sort of

like three factions that are sort of emerging on the right.

It's been said, there's been a lot of reporting that would seem to bear out that Trump number two is one of the most online administrations

to date.

Like they're incredibly online.

They're incredibly podcast-brained.

So like among these factions like of the sort of institutional turning point USA people, the gripers and the kind of like theolite,

you know, far-right, you know, white supremacists, whatever tech, tech fascist movement.

Of those three factions, what would you say has the most influence in the current Trump administration?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, I think,

you know, either the Theolite or, you know, maybe there's a fourth faction that we can just call Laura Loomer, you know,

who sort of operates under agendas that are mysterious and, you know, as obviously often being accused of being paid

as recently by, you know, Roger Stone and Joe Kent, the counterterrorism chief, just this weekend.

Well, actually, could you explain the feud between Joe Kent and Laura Loomer?

Yeah, I mean, and this is just a fun one, but I mean, this is this was over the weekend.

And so Laura Loomer started, it's a little obscure.

I think she was just picking on some Natsack guy that she wanted to get fired.

and Joe Kent kind of waded into it, um, and she felt he wasn't being harsh enough on ISIS or Islamists.

And she said, you know, you should know about this because your wife was killed by ISIS, which is true.

There was a suicide bombing in Syria.

Oh, my God.

She says stuff that, I mean, that's like her power.

A lot of it is like, she'll just say, she'll go to these like fucking insane places that even Republican, like, you know, she went after recently this soldier who had had part of his arm or his leg blown up and got the Medal of Honor.

And she said, hey, this guy's a Democrat.

Why, why, why are we talking about him getting the Medal of Honor?

And so, I mean, like, so Joe Kent then basically said, you know, you're being paid by these forces.

And he didn't quite name them, but I think he meant like kind of like neocons.

And then someone at the, in Chelsea, Chelsea Gabbard's office went after her.

And Roger Stone, even her buddy, was said, you know, you're being paid.

And so there's just like this.

And yet, you know, as you said, I mean, she has this way to like make things into issues, like Palestinian children getting treatments for their amputations in the U.S., temporarily visiting.

And she said, that's that's not going to work.

We got to ban these people.

And it happens.

And so she's this kind of weird force of nature onto herself.

Yeah, Will,

I always think of you when she comes up.

Not because you remind me of her.

I think you are, Will, you are the least like Laura Loomer out of anyone I know, both demographically and disposition-wise.

But

no, no, I think of you because I, I mean, I, I, I, I, I feel like I'm the only one who uh notices this, but it's so weird to,

you know, not just see her become like a powerful force in the administration who has a direct line to the president and can

like single-handedly affect staffing decisions and policy, but like

just the fact that she's like allowed to use DoorDash again.

Like she was

It was basically like a law in America that like she's not allowed to like use an oven.

She was treated like the like the

like the worst kid in a reading out loud in high school class for like 10 years.

And then she just it was I mean, honestly, she's made out of tougher, horrible person, but made out of tougher stuff than me.

Because if that happened to me, I would have killed myself.

If like everyone knew that it's like, that like Southwest, like imagine you go to an airport and Southwest or like spirit airlines more likely announces um

uh you know you are banned from our airline you're too weird and crazy to you know fly to santa fe with with us and everyone cheers and that's just every day for you but it was like she knew that everyone would just get worse and the baseline would go down so much that she would be like basically normal

It must be so jarring for you to watch that.

Felix, I always think of years ago when actually all three of us were at the CPAC at the Gay Lord Convention Center in National Harbor, Maryland.

And I'll never forget you, Felix, you, me, and Matt just walking through the metal detectors, being sort of escorted into the Trump thing by the Secret Service as she was throwing a tantrum outside the metal detectors about being denied entry to the event for some reason.

Oh my God, that was so fun.

Like the Secret Service guys were like, oh, don't worry.

We have a bin for all you left-wing guys is uh jewels yeah

there was a bin with like 60 jewels

yeah they were they were like we'll help you figure out who's who's who and we were like these guys are so great they're so handsome and nice

think these these cops aren't bastards and meanwhile meanwhile they're like forcibly bathing laura loomer

she's too crazy give her the nano machine shot from metal gear solid 4

But it was like, she just knew, she knew, like,

maybe she did COVID.

Because she, like,

something needs to happen where

everyone finally sees things my way.

You're right.

I mean,

it can be hard to stress to people who haven't been following her career as minutely as perhaps the three of us have that, I mean, this is someone who was seen as an outcast, even among like right-wing media personalities.

I mean, after she did, after she got banned from Twitter and after she did the locking herself up to the door thing, I mean, people were like, were like, oh boy, you know, I mean, she has no credibility.

I mean, people just didn't want, like, the vibes were off.

They thought she kind of being around her, like, sort of hurt their own standing on the right.

And now she's like a, like a cabinet secretary, essentially.

Yeah, like Bill Ackman will say things like, Laura, I respect you, but and that's not to say that like Bill Ackman's normal, but that's like it used to, in like 2018, if Bill Ackman like even made eye contact with Laura Loomer, he would have had to like call, he, he would have had to have called a press conference where he's like, it was a mistake.

I thought it was

the woman who stabbed my dog walker for no reason.

I apologize.

It just, I mean,

it makes me think if Thomas Crooks hadn't just gotten his head blown off, he would have been a senator in six years.

Like, probably.

Well, going going back to like the the the griper the groiper war um you you you you you you had a piece called how the groipers won and i was interested in it because like this is a familiar pattern in american politics particularly on the american right and i'm thinking about like a figure like william f buckley who's like you know heralded as the sort of figurehead of a kind of revitalized right-wing movement in america who is very successful and then kind of gets goes on tv gets sort of lazy and complacent and is eventually eviscerated eviscerated, even in the pages of the National Review by the people who came up after him, who were even hungrier, more ruthless, and more right-wing.

Do you see this pattern, like a similar pattern emerging in the Fuentes Charlie Kirk thing?

And what does it mean to like if the Gripers and Nick Fuentes are going to be a major force in politics in this country?

I mean, yeah, I do think Nick Fuentes is unfortunately a really dynamic figure, and he's getting a lot of mainstream attention.

And I think it's awful.

But I mean, kind of the historical perspective, as you said, I think, particularly in the Trump era, the right in right-wing media institutions and personalities have really no way to guard against their right flank and to prevent these things from shifting right.

You know, Charlie Kirk being a great example of someone who was trying to do like a very pro-business stance on immigration.

You know, we walked in.

Trying to do politics the right way.

Yes, well, exactly.

You know, we're trying to, you know, bring in all these high-skilled immigrants.

You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Support business, support corporate tax breaks, and Israel.

That's doing politics the right way.

Exactly.

And then just had to completely flip on that.

Um, because basically, you know, there was nothing to stop a random groiper from disrupting his events.

And if he didn't have that, you know, what did he have?

Um, you know, we can also look at like in those emails where Fox News that came out through the Dominion settlement where they're saying, like, look, if we don't say the election was stolen, someone else is gonna and we're gonna lose.

Um, and so there's just no way for them to really hold the right.

One, one possibility was banning people from Turning Point USA events, And that's why we saw this big pressure on Charlie Kirk before his death to ban Tucker Carlson from speaking at these events.

And so as a result, I mean, there's really, there's only so many, a few gatekeeping mechanisms they have.

And especially with social media, I mean, someone like Candace Owens, I mean, if Ben Shapiro or these broader figures in the right had their way, I mean, she would not have anywhere near the platform she has.

But there's a lot of incentives for her.

She can just post a video saying, you know, maybe there was another shooter, or maybe there's all these questions about Charlie Kirk's death, and it gets like seven, 10 million views on YouTube.

So, I mean, these people are no longer reliant on the party apparatus.

Well, if a net result of Charlie Kirk's murder is that an organization like Turning Point TP, Turning Points, and then like the sort of political and media apparatus around it,

if that is stewarded by someone like Ben Shapiro, who is in the more traditional pro-Israel mold of traditional right-wing Republican politics, and that

the MAGA movement is corralled within the boundaries of not turning against the Zionist project.

I saw, by the way, I saw Mike Huckabee talking today in Israel, and he described Israel as America's wife.

And this is his comments.

He said that, like, if you say that when I invite you to my house for dinner and you say, Mike, I'm so happy to come to dinner.

I can't wait to eat your food and talk with you and have fun.

But if your wife is there, I don't want to be there.

And he was like, well, if that's the case, you're not going to be there because if you love me, you have to love my wife.

And that's the way it is with Israel and America.

So like, if the Trump administration,

yeah.

I mean, look, happy wife, happy life.

Am I right?

And if you keep your wife happy, maybe you won't get killed by a vague, randomly,

you know, a vague young man with random associations.

I kind of hope that Mike Huckabee is right.

Just like, I hope that like the rapture happens just to spite Israel.

Like, I hope they're, they're, like, gearing up to, like, nuke nuke Mozambique for no reason.

And then just Mike Huckabee like floats fatly upwards towards the sky.

And he's like, I knew I was right.

Anyway,

hope you guys have sunscreen ready.

So what I'm saying is.

If

US policy,

or at least if the right-wing movement in this country is corralled into the air, maintains a boundary that can be enforced of Israel, happy wife, happy life.

Do you think that that would, I don't know, perhaps perhaps give ammunition to people inclined to believe that they were behind his murder?

Yeah, I mean, I think it would.

I mean, certainly I think a lot of this stuff about Israel, you know, supposedly killing Charlie Kirk is based on, is kind of this fight over Kirk's legacy and, you know, either Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens trying to

ward Turning Point off from really going hardly in favor of Israel, or at least to kind of grab like a remnant of the Charlie Kirk legacy for themselves.

But yeah, I mean, I think we've already seen, you you know, another example, Marjorie Taylor Green, which this is really crazy.

She was just like, Turning Point is an evangelical organization.

We cannot let another country, that being Israel, or another religion take it over.

So she's saying, you know, we can't let Jews run Turning Point.

Like Ben Shapiro, basically.

Yeah, I mean, people were, he guest hosted on one of the Charlie Kirk shows last week, and I mean, people were flipping out.

Actually, Felix Felix brought it up just a second ago, and I did want to ask you about this.

This is independent of our discussion.

I do want to ask, apparently the the rapture is happening tomorrow.

Have you been following this TikTok trend, Will?

And if so, like, where does it come from?

And should we be looking forward to

sort of a historical day tomorrow?

Do you need real ID for that, by the way?

I use my passport at airport.

I use my passport.

I knew I should have fucking gotten my new one.

God damn it.

Yeah, I mean, this is all over TikTok, this idea that the rapture is coming on Tuesday.

I'll see y'all later.

But, you know, I haven't traced the origins here, but I mean, you know, it should be interesting to see.

You know, there's a classic kind of millenarian

with how these people deal with when the rapture doesn't happen afterwards.

Yeah, the Millerites.

It's another old story in American history.

Yeah, well, I'll be looking forward to the rapture.

I mean, I personally believe it already did happen, but the number of people who actually get into heaven was so imperceptible that, yeah, we are living in hell right now, obviously.

Obviously.

What if the only guy who

was holy holy enough to get into heaven was Thomas Crooks?

And it's not because of the thing he did.

If you are an arresting party, it's something maybe like if you literally interpret the Bible, it's actually good to give like $20 to Joe Biden and then $20 to Joe Kenneth in the same day.

I guess like to bring this conversation back to where it originally started, like this is a moment of great hope and great triumph for the right in this country because they have conclusively won the political war in this country.

And it really looks more than ever like the political project of liberalism is breathing its last gasps.

It doesn't seem like there is much of any juice left in that tank.

However, that being said, the cultural assumptions and

just standard moral programming of liberalism, I don't think is going away anytime soon.

So in light of their massive recent success of, like you said, of Larry Ellison now owning CBS, which he's going to put barry weiss in charge of you know uh ideologically screening all news cnn and then the whole host of like cable channels as well the tick tock deal i i think they they feel that like they can if they can conclusively get their arms around the sort of systems and apparatus of media be it social media or traditional broadcast in this country that they can turn turn the boat around.

And if I were them, I would want to do that too.

Because like, I'm not going to lie, public television from when I was growing up probably made me into a liberal, what with Sesame Street and Reading Rainbow, things of that nature.

But like, Will, I guess my question is, in the current like age of media, where everything is so siloed and atomized, and like there really is no more mainstream media left to speak of, like, how do you rate the success of such an attempt to like make the official media of this country now like totally right-wing?

Like, will do they think that that will give them success in in terms of changing people's basic moral beliefs and values?

Yeah, well, I mean, look, certainly, you know, Brendan Carr at the FCC thinks so.

I mean, they're saying, you know, it's our job to police these airways and make sure they're in the public interest.

You know, I do think, I think,

and the TikTok thing is obviously the most important thing here, I think, in terms of controlling what people think and influencing them.

Yeah, I mean,

I think that there is a, you know, you have these people who,

you know, want a kind of, you know, a much more authoritarian government.

And I do think that they think, you know, if they can, you know, we've seen other mainstream outlets like the Washington Post, the LA Times have been cowed by Trump, you know, and ABC in the past, and now again with Jimmy Kimmel.

So I think that, you know, with the exception of, you know, some podcasts and some YouTubers and some sub stacks, I think they feel pretty confident that I think they can whip most of the media into shape.

I mean, I like,

I definitely don't think it's like, yeah, a good thing, especially Barry Weiss

at CBS.

That is quite grim.

But I will say, I mean,

does anyone remember the years, I don't know, 2014 through like 2022

when there was, when there was like,

not like in all media, but

a pretty visible,

pretty, pretty easy to see in pretty like all formats of media, a kind of like aggro late Obama

idpole focused liberalism that was like sort of

sometimes weirdly punitive and

but was so well defined that it had like an identifiable style, no matter if it was like a movie or a streaming show or a video game for that matter.

And

we ended up with Brandon.

I mean,

I think that's a good point about like, you know, what, how

does having control over mainstream media mean quite the same thing as it did in, say, 2002?

But also just like,

you can have complete

like cultural purchase and like actually

have like

majority popular support behind it, which a lot of liberalism did during that roughly eight-year period.

And still it could just like fall to fall apart in seconds.

Yeah.

I mean, it's like, it's like we've talked about this in the show so many times before, but like, I think we're seeing it in really like a vivid contrast right now in that the right has all of the political power and none of the cultural power.

And they're going to attempt, as they are right now, to use their political power to enforce a kind of like, yeah, to create for themselves a cultural power that they fear they'll deny.

Liberals responded to the election of Donald Trump by having lost politics to try to use their cultural power to gain and enforce political power.

And the thing is, I don't think either one of them works.

I don't think you can do, like, I don't, I don't know what the answer is here, but I think both efforts seem doomed to failure.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, I just, I, you know, I repeat myself, but I just,

it's hard to confidently predict anything except like

both parties hand, like, handing each other the flaming bag of shit that is administration over this country every like four to eight years.

Well, the good news is feel like if things keep going the way they are,

we don't have to deal with that anymore.

We won't have to.

That'll be resolved.

Yeah.

I mean, well, yeah, like

I mean, like, because if these guys are serious about like their plans and what if we take Stephen Miller seriously, like the things that they're going to do or be required to do will make them, you know, vulnerable to prosecution when they leave office.

I mean, they've already learned that lesson once with Trump being indicted many times and not eventually not convicted.

But, like,

yeah, I mean, yeah, maybe we won't have to hand off the bag of shit anymore because we're just going to end democracy in this country.

That's a possibility.

I mean, that's what they want.

That's what, that's what they want.

I mean, they, they could not, like, they're getting pretty, they're getting ready to pretty close to just saying it.

I mean, I will, I will say, um,

generally, not like, these are not like the economic policies of like a party that is thinking about contesting another

presidential election.

Yeah.

Or a real one, I should say.

Well, the last thing I want to ask you about is the speculation about Charlie's perhaps religious conversion from evangelical Protestantism to Catholicism.

And just one quote here I want to highlight, of course, involving Candace Owens.

Owens, not content to leave any battle unjoined, declared on Monday that Kirk, an evangelical Christian, had been on the verge of conversion to Catholicism, saying her friend had been praying the rosary and attending Mass.

You're too smart to be a Protestant, Owens recalled joking to Kirk.

Again, she provided no evidence.

This enraged evangelical Christian.

He provided no evidence that he was too smart to be a Protestant.

As at Kirk's own pastor released a statement urging Owens to be more respectful of Kirk's memory, Owens responded that the pastor should, quote, be quiet.

And I guess my question here, Will, is like, how is this

an old dispute, you know, one of the oldest ones between Catholicism and Protestantism?

What does that speak to in terms of like who is Catholic and who is Protestant on the right?

Like, what do the Catholics have and what do they dislike in the evangelicals, aside from the obvious, aside from, you know, the whole Reformation thing?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting.

I mean,

and in many ways, I think Candace Owens claiming he was about to become Catholic.

Is Candace Owens Catholic?

Is she converted to Catholicism?

Okay.

Yeah, I think she's a convert.

Yeah.

And so, or basically, like, in some ways, I think this is more of sort of a knife in the Kirk legacy than saying he was turning on Israel, which I think a lot of those people directly involved don't really care about.

But, like, to say, I mean, they clearly see Charlie Kirk as like there's going to be this new revival.

He's going to bring all these people to evangelical faith.

At the memorial, one of the pastors, I think maybe even Charlie Kirk's pastor said, you know, stand up if you want to embrace Jesus in your hearts right now.

And so for her to to say, oh, yeah, actually he was about to become Catholic.

He was praying the rosary.

He was going to mass.

I mean, has obviously infuriated them.

I mean, there are these tensions.

And, you know, I think Matty Glacey has made a very good point here, jumping off of this Catholic, crypto-Catholic thing with Charlie Kirk, that I think.

Evangelical Christians see themselves as underrepresented in the kind of right-wing media project because there are so many Catholics and Jews.

And so Charlie Kirk was unique in that way because he wasn't evangelical.

And then to say that, oh, yeah, no, that guy was Catholic too, I I think has driven them nuts.

I mean, I don't know.

I mean, I remember Matt saying this years ago about why there's so many Catholics on the Supreme Court.

And he said it's because they're the only ones left in the right-wing movement who can read books.

And I suppose that would apply to right-wing Jewish people as well.

But like, yeah,

I think that, like,

they're, I think the smarter and more ruthless members of the right are all Catholics because they read books and you have to read books.

And the evangelical mega-church kind of American Protestantism isn't cutting them, isn't cutting it for them anymore.

And on that line, what did you make of a lot of?

I've seen a lot of the weirder rights reaction to Erica Kirk's comments at the funeral, at the memorial service that she forgives Tyler Robinson.

A lot of them are really mad about that.

Yeah, a lot of that kind of world of like the Bronze Age patriot or excuse me, pervert, the Bronze Age pervert.

Same difference.

I mean, he is a patriot, of course, but the

kind of like the Andrew Tate-y, but like kind of with a more of a Christian flair world is just like, you know, forgive him.

No, you know, we need to behead this guy.

I'm seeing a lot of like, you know, this is why women shouldn't be in government, shouldn't why they should stay in the home because, you know, she would forgive her husband's killer.

So, you know, people were mad about that.

There's like a ton of gender discourse, as you might imagine, around Erica Kirk and, you know, the question of whether, you know, because of, you know, whether she can really, you know, take over Turning Point USA.

I mean, the right is obviously very divided on that question.

I mean, but this does seem like her moment.

Like, like, she is, she is ready to, I don't know, like

be on center stage for the right-wing movement right now.

Like, does she have ambitions to be like a media figure in the way her husband was, or is she just willing to kind of like step into that role as circumstances demands of her?

Yeah, I mean, up until the assassination, she wasn't seen as like a major media figure on the right.

On the other hand, you know, I think a lot of the kind of like Charlie Kirk loyalists at Turning Point USA, the people who were closest to him, obviously really want her to continue in that role and kind of step up.

You know, conversely, you have people like Candace Owens, I think, who, you know, she said, you know, I'll only shut up with my, you know, paraphrase.

Oh, gosh, I knocked my chair down.

You know, saying, I, I'll only be quiet with these conspiracy theories or my claims about Charlie Kirk if,

you know, if Erica tells me to shut up.

And so she's kind of nodding to the power that Erica Kirk has as the widow.

But, you know, there's clearly a lot of jockeying for sort of like who was the real heir to Charlie.

Is there any lane for someone who's like, listen, I love Charlie, but boo, Eric

Does anyone tried that?

Well,

the manosphere guys who don't want women to be like, you know, in any position of authority, yeah, but I think those

are like you could just, yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Like, um, I, yeah, I, I, someone where you could like go back a month and not find posts where they're like,

you know, join, join our

beheading Charlie Kirk workshop.

Yeah, they were, you know, it's on one hand, you know, yeah, no one publicly is saying, you know, Charlie was great, but, you know, Erica's got to step aside or something.

But, you know, I do think, I mean, these are, these are very mercenary people in right-wing media, and they really do not like, you know, in my private conversations with them, there is definitely a lot of like, you know,

we'll see how she does at this memorial speech.

Maybe, you know, someone else will need to step up.

But I think so far she's kind of solidified her hold on it.

But, you know, again, I mean, a lot of this is who can get the donor money, who can throw the sickest parties, you know, at these conferences.

And, you know, that's going to be kind of decided in the course to come.

Well, having been to the fucking Charlie Kirk party at CPAC, I can conclusively say he did not throw the sickest parties

on the right wing.

No, that's not fair.

That was a Benny Johnson party.

Well, he's turning point.

Or was he turning points?

Well, then you've got Benny Johnson, I mean, another potential heir as well.

And, you know,

obviously.

One thing about Benny Johnson, he's talked a lot about his degeneracy and how Charlie Kirk saved him from degeneracy, which is like, I don't think of what?

What?

Wait a sec.

Come on.

No.

Pause.

All right.

Yeah.

No, I mean, those are his words.

And I was like, what was he?

Okay.

Well, what was his degeneracy?

That he's well, he doesn't say, I mean, he says he was an alcoholic, which, okay, setting that aside, but then he'll say, he saved me from alcoholism and degeneracy.

And it's like, you know, yes, Benny was a plagiarist.

You know, he was the conservative at BuzzFeed, but I didn't think of that time as like particularly degenerate, at least publicly.

So I'm not sure.

But he's bringing it up.

So I just wanted to flag it.

I'm just saying,

in the parlance of the right, alcoholism and plagiarism are never really considered degenerate behaviors.

I think that's right.

So it's a little unclear what's happening.

It's unclear.

It's unclear.

The last thing I want to bring up is like, I just thought of this now, but like, I think my favorite right-wing reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination or the attendant discourse around it was from, well, I don't know if you're familiar with this account, Martyr Maid.

Oh, yeah.

Martyr Maid had a comment, and it was sort of in response to people

when Tyler Robinson's father turned him in.

And they were like, wow,

what if that was your son?

If your son killed Charlie Kirk, like, would you call the cops on him?

Would you turn him into law enforcement?

And some people were saying, yes, obviously I would.

Other people were like, no, it's still my son.

I would try to protect him or save him or help him get to Mexico or whatever.

And Martyr Maid's response to this was like, I'm shocked that anyone would collaborate with the state when it comes to matters of family.

If my son killed Charlie Kirk, I would have taken him camping and took care of it myself.

So he would have legged, he's like, you should Lenny your own kid if you thought they did a murder.

It's crazy.

And I mean, of course, in that world, I'm sure the cops would show up and say, oh, you shot your son.

Okay, well, case closed.

Yeah, then do you turn yourself into is the question.

Thanks for saving us the paperwork.

We love parents like you.

And of course, parents are allowed to kill their kids.

Yeah, I mean, it's it's and of course, I mean, also in this world where your son confesses, then you go, hey, you want to go camping?

All right.

We'll leave it there for the day.

Will Summer, thank you so much for your time.

Thanks for joining us today.

You can check out Will's writing at The Bulwark.

Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.

Thank you, Will.

All right, everybody, that does it for this one.

Till next time, bye-bye.

Let's burn a line, let's march to heaven and try to destroy it.

We should demand a great reward in time to enjoy it.

If you believe we're going to hell one way or another,

can it be worse than all the hell we make for each other?

I listen and watch, oh, the whisper turns to a roar.

Our love is for the moment, we won't need any more.

You're up a soul, let's burn a hole where there should be a handle.

You dance around, you burn like flames from a robot candle.