#220 Sihame El Kaouakibi: How to Fail Spectacularly—Then Win Even Bigger – Part Two

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Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer.
I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world.

How do I even begin to introduce our first guest from Belgium who has Moroccan roots? Her name is C.M.L. Kawakibi.
She is a Moroccan immigrant, a burnout and bankruptcy survivor, a parliamentarian, a champion of diversity and inclusion. She is also the creator of Women Leaders, and a woman's leadership coach.

She is all these and more.

Beyond these identities, what truly impresses me are the experiences that have shaped these transformations.

Some people thrive in politics, others in stability. Siham thrives in adversity.
She describes herself as more than resilient. She is anti-fragile.
I see her as someone who has learned over time to turn adversity into an advantage.

It's not an inborn talent.

Rather, it's something nurtured and developed.

How?

Let's find out. Politics, whether in government or the office, is something that some people are really good at navigating.
Some people thrive in it and even seek out more of it. It sounds like you saw Parliament as a stage to make a positive impact on the communities you care about, your intentions were noble.
But the environment made things worse. Not only were you unable to create the impact you wanted, but you also faced various attacks and toxic behavior.
The same goes for office environments.

Many corporate workers might be incredibly smart and capable, but they struggle to climb the corporate ladder because they either don't play politics, don't play it well,

or aren't willing to play it at all. I've been in a corporate world, and I've seen and experienced my share of political maneuvering.
I've had my own struggles with mental health due to corporate politics. That's part of why I decided to become an entrepreneur, a free agent, rather than being bound or controlled by that environment.
For many people, whether they are considering a job change, a career shift, or even trying to change the world as an entrepreneur, one key takeaway is to choose your environment and culture carefully. In certain cultures and environments, you can thrive and excel.
In others, you might struggle. It doesn't mean you are not smart or that your intentions are not good enough.
Often it's the environment and the culture that holds you back, preventing you from achieving what you want to achieve. That's been my experience.
Beautiful. Yeah, I can relate.
I can relate. The environment is everything.
If you feel you're

surviving instead of striving, you need to quit, you need to leave. Because a lot of women that I guide now, some of them really start, they're really these beautiful, amazing women, high positions.
And they're still sometimes like in this environment with this political games, toxic leadership, and they stay. I'm like, okay, what's the plan? And the strange thing is that they cling.

They're just holding this situation.

It's holding them back.

They're just stuck.

And sometimes it's better to accept the rejection than feeling stuck, I think.

So if the environment, the toxic environment, feels like a rejection, maybe it's better.

Rejection can be redirection.

And it's sometimes better to just believe. And I think the most liberating decision can be to move on.
And like you said, you need to find your tribe. You need to find your environment so you can try.
But it's confronting, right? Being rejected. Why is someone toxic? It's like, for example, for women.
Of course, more and more women go into leadership positions. They're okay and feminine leadership is actually based on empathy emotional intelligence also inclusivity and i know that and i was one of them that it's no longer true that women need to like mimic masculine or male leaders no i think we should embrace our strength leads with our authentic selves and i think I think we can relate.
I don't know if you've experienced it, but I've experienced so many times called being irritated or too emotional after just being me in stating my points in a meeting with a lot of fashion. But it does affect you as a woman, as a person, as a human.
You lose your genuine, vulnerable self because of it.

And so I think when the moment you have to choose and you have to be someone that you're not,

yeah, you lose your authenticity. And that's so important in a leading position that you

actually not only in a leading position, but for everyone to be able to lean into your authenticity. And that's not possible in a toxic work environment.
I know you have your own consulting and coaching practice. You've developed what you call the Women Leaders OS, which stands for Operating System.
Can you tell us more about how this approach works? I know it is not a digital system like iOS, the Apple system, but I'm curious to learn more about how this operating system, you've decided, benefits your target audience, women leaders. Yeah, women leaders, half-forming women.
The reason I created Women Leaders OS was it was exactly what I needed at many points in my life. Like I already shared, going from doing very well to hitting rock bottom, it just leads you to a healing journey that guides you back to your true self.
And you just realize that the pet I realized that the pet I was on was nothing like what I used to love. It was actually far from what I believed in.
And I just cared too much about achieving things and what others thought of me and leading you as a high performing woman juggling multiple responsibilities. Well, you do feel overwhelmed and you start questioning your path.
And when I was doing this, I started several programs, investing my time in studies, etc. Therapy, coaching.
And I realized I was alone, of course. Many women were experiencing the same struggles.
And it took me three years and a lot of financial investment to get where I am now. And my belief is that it shouldn't take others three years and it should be financially accessible.
And that's why besides my real consulting, like what's more my income, being an impact consulting on SEGs, supporting founders to scale sustainably, et cetera, I have this mission to do something with this recent button that the curveball life threw at me. And it is like my mission, I always love to say, my mission is to help one million women turning life challenges into life changes for the better.
These women want to break through in their careers, but they want to do it without the burnout. They want to have more fulfillment in life life and it's possible.
The world of women is my world and I needed to heal, to see and to deal with life challenges and I believe that other women can do the same. I also believe that there is a lot of strength and that what these times need, what the world needs for the moment is more women, okay? But women still beliefs and also support systems so it starts really with women deciding that they are worthy and willing to change and the women who are ready for change i really want to support these women through my community through my program so this is a 90-day coaching program one-on-one not just about career advancement but like i said about redefining, reframing their challenges and helping them doing it.
Because helping them, redefining for them what it means to be at our best again. What are your coping mechanisms? How can we change them? And just aligning professional aspirations with this personal fulfillment is so important.
And these are beautiful journeys, but what I love most is actually the community. It's not the program itself, one-on-one.
It's building a community of all these amazing women that just are supportive for each other, that they can learn, grow, ground, pivot, redefine, achieve, whatever in life and career together. And just knowing that there is like this community with a sense of belonging, that even in this high-performing world where outside world thinks everything's fine and you're perfectly successful.
What are your challenges? These people also have lives, they have relationships, a family. And we all know we all have issues.
We all have, whether it's with health, whether it's with family, whether you want to repurpose and redirect and you don't know how. because you were always on this high-speed train, never slowing down, never seeing your true self actually, uncovering parts of yourself as a woman in her 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, doesn't matter, it's all different phases of life and taking time to slow down and having people that can relate is so important and so why it an operator heating system is because it's my inspiration and I'm building it actually.
That I can, actually I'm digitizing all the tools I use from life rule assessments, decision matrix, the Ikigai, of course, career path roadmaps, all these things, blueprints, happy trackers. I'm digitizing this so it can become real tangible tools, a toolkit actually that women can use whenever they want, wherever they want, and still can lean into the support of a community.
So in that way, it can be financially accessible, low ticket, and those who still want one-on-one coaching, just they can jump on a call with me and then we can see if there is a match. That's what I do today.
But actually, I love these free clarity calls I do every day. I have three spots every day limited for women who really need some clarity, feeling overwhelmed.
And sometimes 15, 30 minutes is enough and others need more. Okay, I'm there.
Some just need a community. Some need one-on-one coaching.
It's not a one size fits all, but I love the journey. It's learning by doing as well.
It's not perfect.

And that's great.

Done is better than perfect. The learning is in the doing for me.
And that's what I practice. And that's what I share with all these amazing women.
Like I said, we need more women leaders. And we are seeing more of them emerge around the world.
My podcast is global with guests from different parts of the world. And a major part of the audience is in the US.
But Siham, you are in Belgium, in Europe. And I'm curious about any specific challenges or interesting phenomena related to women leaders in your country or in your culture.
Are there particular difficulties or unique cultural aspects in Belgium or your part of Europe that may differ from those in the US or Asia? I love to hear about your observations and experiences. Because my program is online and I actually focus on the world, so most of the women actually indeed come from the US, Canada, even India.
One from Singapore indeed, it's the MENA region, Middle East, North Africa. It's actually beautiful to see how actually the cultural context, the face, the layers are universal, really.
When we talk about feminine energy, masculine energy, male, women, it's whatever, all these layers, it's really universal. And so when we talk about feminine context, when we talk about what a woman or women experience in leadership positions, that's actually what I can really draw today from all these different women all around the world I talk with every day.
And so the cultural sensitivity is really not depending on local context. I think think it's more cultural it's about cultural challenges women face but there are again universe it's about sexism it's about racism it's about societal expectations and these different layers you need to provide tailored guidance and support so i have women who say look the last 10 years i had coaching but they were all male coaches life coaches business coaches but they don't seem to grasp the deeper layers that women face it just i've just hit like the boundary i cannot dig deeper with this coach so actually i need a woman that can whom i can relate and i think that's logic it's like going to therapy if you go therapy, for example, relationships.
I know here in Belgium, for example, we have a lot more and more intercultural couples. So couples that, you know, with different ethical backgrounds, etc.
And it brings certain, again, other complexity with it. So the therapists here, most of them are native Belgians.
So they are mostly whites. And after two or three sessions, these couples face difficulties because they cannot dig deeper.
The therapist cannot relate with the world, with the cultural, with the implicit language that just is part of the intercultural world. And so that's why I love the fact that we are with so many different kind of coaches that there is diversity and that's why I chose the niche of women of course I can coach men there are also men who are jumping on calls with me I want to work with me and yes please let's go but I just know that's why I chose this high-performing woman I am I was I was, and I am a high-performing woman.
And just feel I can relate more to different layers. When we talk about relationships, when we talk about your position as a daughter, as a sister, as a friend, as a lover, as whatever, the first female board member, as the first female whatever, we are confronted always with the same judgments, with the same difficulties,

complexities. And that's so nice that you don't need to put all your energy in explaining all these things.
And someone can just relate and you can just put in the work together. That's what you want.
You want to put in the work. You don't only want to overcome it.
You want to learn to live with difficulties and to accept actually the difference, the curveballs and the challenges that life throws at you.

And so I think it's more that.

It's more like really coupled with cultural yeah culture and gender or maybe for others religion and sexual orientation i think these are all these different layers so that's why the supportive community with all these different kind of women is so important because there they can really share experiences, gain insights, support each other. It helps combat isolation and it really brings a sense of belonging that mostly something they miss in even very in their inner circle with friends or maybe at home even.
So that's why it's great to have that kind of sense of belonging and find it somewhere, but it's not linked to a country or something because also for me, I was born here, but I'm Moroccan. But in Morocco, I'm Belgian.
So in the world, I'm just Sihem, Moroccan Belgian woman that today has Women Leaders OS and is an impact consultant. And I thrive in actually these situations where we have challenges and people want impacts.
And we can just work together, collaborate and inspire common goals and do things together.

That's, I think, not country or geography, but really like just the environment, like you said.

It's more hybrids.

And I love that.

I love that.

So basically, you're saying that while you work with women from different parts of the world, you found that many of the challenges they face are universal. Yes, there may be local cultural elements or influences.
But many of these issues are cultural, for example, being judged, whether it's for being married, having children, not having children, being LGBTQ, having long hair, short hair, these judgments aren't limited to women in Belgium, New York, San Francisco, or Hong Kong. They're simply issues that women everywhere face.
You are helping women from different corners of the world navigate these universal challenges. Actually, what I deal with is life challenges.
Like

I have hit rock bottom and I had to uncover my values, my beliefs. I had to accept the situation

I was in that I couldn't go back. So it's really about life.
It can be medical, it can be healthy,

it can be divorce, it can be grief, it can be indeed problems with your child, it can be problems

just with yourself, just lack of self-belief, lack of confidence, because all this cross-cultural context is good to you and how you cope with it. And maybe it's coping mechanism in the wrong way, maybe it's burning you out, etc.
So for me, the great thing is that we all face life challenges and that I just love and I'm good at reframing these challenges to possibilities to pivot to grow and to lead you to fulfillment and success in life and career without burnout. Learn how, for example, to set boundaries, not seeing it as if you're a people pleaser, not seeing it as something selfish or mean.
And the cultural context, the cross-cultural context, is a surplus. The fact that we also, all these different layers, experience all these different layers.
That's why I can be a better match for someone or the person I can coach, high-performing woman, can be a better match for me. We just can relate.
I'm curious, what's the persona of the women leaders you tend to work with? Or those you are most drawn to helping? The reason I raise this question is because, honestly, in my view, when mainstream people talk about women in leadership, it still feels a bit generic, especially before COVID.

I noticed that mainstream media tended to showcase a certain type of woman leader.

Someone who might fit into a traditional mode,

such as happily married with two or three children,

long hair, maybe blonde, maybe blue eye.

Essentially, the ideal wife role model in the eyes of men.

This image doesn't differ much from the so-called women's role models of the past.

But we know that in reality, there's so much diversity in the world of women leaders. Now that we're in 2024 moving into 2025, the world is changing rapidly.
So back to my original question, what types of women leaders do you like to work with or would you like towards more? I believe even within the world of women leaders, we need more diversity. Like the persona I work with or I love to work with are these women are amazing, okay, already.
They don't need someone to grow or help nurture some kind of talent or something because they are talented and they already achieve so many things. But sometimes you go through moments of self-doubt, fear of failure, even success and still lack motivation.
And when you're high performing in a golden cage, you just want to stick to your comfort zone. And it's these women that I love to work with.
Help them recognize this challenge as a first step to overcome. And overcome these challenges.
And moving forward with this. Gaining back this confidence and self-belief and determination.
And letting them know that these challenges, they are totally concurable. Maybe you don't see it for the moment because you were always high-perform and something happened to you and you're now confused and overwhelmed it's about gaining that clarity and direction again about repurposing and i think with some tools solid guidance a great support system with women leaders os i can really help women to navigate from the place where they are to who they are becoming.
So you need to learn or you need to try to avoid burnout. You need to learn how to release stress.
You need to learn how to relieve pressure. You need to learn how to relieve guilt when not working, for example.
Okay? Start enjoying these little playful moments in life. And then when we have this, when we have this personal part of life and relationships, etc.
I love to work with this woman to, of course, a successful career. And it can be a new job, a new title.
But mostly I love to work with founders. Because I'm an entrepreneur myself.
And I know what it is to take a project from zero to a hundred. And so I just love to work.
So I have this woman, I cannot say for what institutions she works in New York because it's one of the most known institutions. She's a high level director there and she wants to pivot.
She's tired of the environment. She actually moved from the other part of the world to New York to have this position.
And then after years, she's, this is not my environment. I cannot drive here.

This is too much bureaucracy.

And I'm more entrepreneur.

I was always a VC, et cetera.

And now she contacted me and she asked, okay, can you help navigate actually the closure

of this chapter so I can, I don't burn up bridges.

I can, no, just live in a friendly manner and I don't know how to communicate.

My culture is different.

So can you help me there? Because with my private political experience, I can. That's one thing.
And on the other hand, it's that, and I have time. I have some savings.
I can take six months to build my new business, but I don't know what it will be. Can you help me? I love to do that.
I love to help someone who is confused or who is like a little bit new direction, help them in the present situation and start crafting their future together. For me, those are great journeys because I also learn a lot and we do it together.
And it's really, yeah, it's really personal. And I'm so grateful that these people jump on a call with me and can relate with me and just trust me to go on this journey with them.
Because it's quite important, right? The next 10, 15 years of your life is always important, the next runway. Yes, you mentioned the word trust.
In the last few interviews with different guests, whether they were coaches, tech innovators, or someone in recruitment, trust has come up as a key theme. As we enter the AI era, where we'll see more and more applications of AI in our daily lives, the importance of humanity with trust as a major component remains crucial.
Trust is hard to build, hard to find, and once broken, difficult to repair. For you, as a coach and consultant, trust is a key success factor in pursuing and accelerating your agenda to make an impact on women leaders.
To wrap up our interview, I'd like to ask you to share genuine advice with our listeners, whether they are young women in their 20s or more experienced women in their 40s, 50s, or 60s, you work with women from various backgrounds. So what are your top three pieces of advice for women facing life challenges, feeling lost, or struggling to find direction? Perhaps they might eventually reach out to you for consulting sessions or seek help from a therapist or psychologist.
How can they begin to feel more relaxed and take the first steps towards getting unstuck? When you're feeling lost, mostly lost something, okay? And the moment you lose almost everything, you, everything you cared about, you have to believe that you will overcome this loss. We all did.
And if you're back in shape, you just realize that nothing in life can happen that you cannot overcome. And maybe even you actually don't overcome it.
You work through it and live differently. And to believe this, you need really to trust the process.
And it's something, it's making me sound vague, but it's something you have to believe in. You cannot change the situation you're in if you don't believe it.
And the path you're on will roll out how it will roll out. It will manifest.
That's how it is. And another part is there's so much about glamorous success, but there is always another side.
side okay everything you see when you're feeling lost and confused and you envy all these other people just know that there's always another side of growth okay so there are extraordinary people that you envy when you but they are also in deep pain even if they are millionaires or have social status. And they are going through depths of darkness.
So don't mirror yourself with these people when you are lost. Because I did.
I envied so many people. I was focused on the other instead of focusing on myself.
You lose time, you lose energy, you lose self-confidence, everything you need to start your transformation. And the other part is just success is moving through the peaks and the lows, equally embracing what is strong at us.
That's success. The rest is noise.
If somebody says to you, this is success, look at me, don't believe it. Success is failure, stumbling, maybe bankruptcy, scandals, trials, whatever it is.
Just know that the real success and wealth is inside you. And when you find that source, you become resourceful.
To wrap it up, I always say to the community of women I work with, you will always be in. You are going to make mistakes.
You are not perfect, okay? The learning is in the doing. So embrace the change, lean into the resistance you feel, but also be grateful.
Every day, these three things that you're grateful for, focus on the abundance that you're surrounded with, whether it's love or the little things, instead of focusing on the lack of something, the voids, okay? Your future will pan out just as it's supposed to be and let your values guide you. I think that's for me the most important thing.
And if you really want to have something very tangible, what helped me a lot and helps a lot of people I'm surrounded with is create a structured daily routine, Okay? Do these daily walks in nature. There are brain juice.
Start journaling. Practice gratitude.
It really helps stay positive. Pursue something like a further education.
It can be a course. There's so many free courses online.
Do something that sharpens, that keeps you sharp, that sharpens your knowledge, for example. You don't feel you're not able to learn.

No, you keep on learning.

Engage in sports.

So important.

And if you're really in a dark period, of course, you need therapy. Of course, you need to understand and manage your mental health through professional health.

But all these little things, it's compounding.

It's compounding to change.

It's compounding your transformation.

And I can assure you, it works. It didn't only work for me, it works for all these amazing women I work with.
For sure. Yeah, I can truly resonate with a lot of those points.
For example, the concept of success has become more distorted since the rise of social media. The glorification of success has only gotten worse with everyone talking up their achievements, making everything seem more glamorous than it really is.
But honestly, this projection is not only misleading, it can also be entirely false. There's so much happening behind the scenes that people don't show.
If you take those projections as truth or benchmarks for your own efforts, you end up losing because the benchmark isn't even real.

Instead, you should focus on your own progress.

Making progress every day,

whether it's learning something new,

reading a few pages,

taking a short course or exercising,

is empowering.

You see yourself improving day by day, and that's what matters. Learning is both empowering and an investment.
People often talk about helping women become more financially independent, focusing on financial investment, but investing in yourself, learning a new field, earning certificates, or even exploring fields like front engineering can be incredibly lucrative. It opens up new opportunities that can eventually turn into financial gains.
Learning is an investment in yourself. Women around the world have often been bound by certain systems and structures since childhood.
Whenever we deviate from those expectations, we face judgment and discouragement. We need more healthy positivity to help us advance, even if it's just bed by bed.
Because as you said, everything compounds over time. Yeah, exactly.
Oh, pleasure. It was really nice.
It was really, it was lovely to do this. this was one of my first podcast was in english so

sorry for my maybe some mistakes but i love doing this and to share some i think just real stories like i said i think it should be part of impacts to contribute to people's stories and people's journey so it's always a pleasure to contribute in in this way yeah Sam, you are being modest

It's your first time as a guest on an English-speaking podcast. And it's also my first time as the host and creator of ONE.
A lot of my guests don't have English as their mother tongue. Neither do I.
But we are stepping up

and moving forward to make our voices heard. And in a noisy world, that's what really matters.
Don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media.

I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host.

Until next time, take care.