Letters from Sing Sing - Ep. 5: Integrity

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Speaker 23 It's October of 2012, more than 12 years since JJ first entered prison. I'm back inside Sing Sing to check in with him.

Speaker 23 We're in his housing block, standing on the second tier outside his cell.

Speaker 27 There's a TV mounted behind him that everyone in the unit shares.

Speaker 23 It's been eight months since NBC aired my investigation into his case.

Speaker 30 I was able to see the show. I watched it right here.
Right here on that TV.

Speaker 31 And how did that feel?

Speaker 30 I went through a mixed range of emotions, you know, like it was a purging process, but

Speaker 30 I was able to get through it. I was happy.
I was sad.

Speaker 32 I was confused.

Speaker 33 I went through a lot. But it also gave you hope.

Speaker 34 Definitely gave me hope.

Speaker 30 I can say that based on the show, I received a lot of support. I mean, I had junior high school kids writing me.
It was very touching.

Speaker 30 A lot of people all over the United States writing me, letting me know that they support me.

Speaker 30 Finally, for one time in my life, I realized, you know, I'm not alone, you know, that I wasn't the underdog anymore, and that people believed in me. It meant a lot to me.

Speaker 24 But JJ tells me he's also frustrated that he's still locked up.

Speaker 36 He thought my investigation had finally revealed the truth about his innocence, that someone in authority would take action and he'd be free.

Speaker 24 He says the other men on his cell block felt the same way.

Speaker 30 Believe it or not, a lot of them are pissed off. They're wondering what I'm still doing here.

Speaker 30 You know, if anybody was to have hope, it would be me, and everybody had hope in me, giving half my cell away. You know, thinking that my time has finally come.
I'm still here.

Speaker 30 I was on national television

Speaker 35 with a whole lot of people who support me now

Speaker 30 and still not being heard.

Speaker 39 But the Manhattan DA's office said they were paying attention.

Speaker 41 Their conviction integrity unit began looking into JJ's case in 2011, a few months before my special aired.

Speaker 43 They said they were conducting an objective and thorough reinvestigation.

Speaker 45 Well, at least that's what they said.

Speaker 46 I'm Dan Slepian, and this is Letters from Sing Sing.

Speaker 47 Episode 5 Integrity

Speaker 48 In 2010, the new Manhattan DA Cyrus Vance created a conviction integrity unit, the CIU.

Speaker 51 It's a group of prosecutors focused on investigating claims of innocence.

Speaker 7 Bob Gottlieb, JJ's lawyer, had served on Vance's transition team, and Bob was confident that the CIU would be JJ's ticket out.

Speaker 43 He held a press conference right after he submitted JJ's application.

Speaker 53 They have just received our papers in support of Mr. Velazquez, and this is really the first step in the process to exonerate John Adrian Velasquez.

Speaker 53 The entire development of this conviction integrity unit is such a positive step. It allows us to go directly to the DA without spending time in court and legal machinations.

Speaker 53 We have no reason to believe that the DA is going to do anything else other than conduct an objective, thorough, independent investigation.

Speaker 54 Bob believed that once the CIU looked into JJ's case, they'd see they'd gotten it wrong, that JJ was innocent, and they'd ask a judge to vacate his conviction.

Speaker 45 This way, JJ wouldn't have to file a formal appeal, a process that could take years.

Speaker 39 Within days of filing their paperwork, Bob and his partner Celia Gordon heard from the CIU.

Speaker 19 We received a call that they wanted to meet with us. That was an awfully good sign.
I couldn't wait to have that first meeting.

Speaker 39 So Bob and Celia went to meet with the CIU at the Manhattan DA's office.

Speaker 19 Right from the beginning,

Speaker 19 I knew there was a problem.

Speaker 7 When they walked in, they realized it wasn't just the members of the CIU at the meeting.

Speaker 43 The The prosecutor from JJ's trial was also there.

Speaker 19 Common sense tells you that you can't have the prosecutor who vouched for the witnesses who had no credibility, who led the investigation, who told and worked with the detectives how to proceed with the investigation.

Speaker 19 To have him present at the meeting was wrong.

Speaker 41 JJ's lawyers began to worry the investigation would not be fair and objective.

Speaker 56 Even so, Celia was convinced that if the CIU interviewed JJ, they would see for themselves he was telling the truth.

Speaker 60 One of the things that we asked them to do was to please meet with John Adrian. And we said, speak with him face to face because, you know, we're talking about a person.

Speaker 60 Like, this is a living human being who we are telling you has been wrongfully convicted.

Speaker 7 On October 3rd, 2012, two detectives picked JJ up at Sing Sing and drove him to the Manhattan DA's office.

Speaker 40 He wore a white button-down shirt and khakis. It was the first time JJ had seen the streets of New York City in nearly 15 years.

Speaker 30 I mean, besides seeing bars and barbed wire fences and walls, I was able to see cars and people that weren't dressed in green or blue. It was an amazing experience because I felt freedom.

Speaker 62 JJ arrived at the DA's offices and was led to a conference room.

Speaker 34 Morning, good to morning.

Speaker 34 Good morning.

Speaker 48 How are you, John?

Speaker 63 His handcuffs were removed.

Speaker 23 JJ sat at a table across from three prosecutors.

Speaker 48 His lawyers, Bob and Celia, sat off to the side.

Speaker 64 I wasn't there, but the DA's office videotaped the interview.

Speaker 33 We did get some donuts and coffee. I know it's probably an early start.
If you want something now, we're happy to, you guys can help yourselves. Assistant DA Evan Krutoy began the meeting.

Speaker 33 So what I want to do is just start by focusing really on the day itself, January 27th, 1998, Tuesday, and the Monday before.

Speaker 33 Just walk me through very, very slowly, if you can, your recollection of how you spent the Monday before through the evening and then the 27th.

Speaker 34 Well, I mean,

Speaker 30 it's a long time ago, so my memories now.

Speaker 23 JJ started to explain what he remembered from that day.

Speaker 24 It was the same story he told me many times before.

Speaker 39 That he was at home in the Bronx with his kids and their mother Vanessa.

Speaker 27 That he spent 74 minutes on the phone with his mom Maria.

Speaker 28 The prosecutors asked JJ about his alleged accomplice, Derry Daniels.

Speaker 33 Describe the court appearances with Gary Daniels and what conversations you had with him before he pled out Miracle Table.

Speaker 30 I've never had a conversation with Debbie Dames.

Speaker 30 Never in my life.

Speaker 21 They wanted to know if JJ knew any of the eyewitnesses.

Speaker 33 Did you recognize any of the witnesses who testified as a trial?

Speaker 35 Absolutely not.

Speaker 51 They also asked JJ about a family photo that had been shown at his trial.

Speaker 40 It was taken weeks before his arrest when his newborn son Jacob was sick and in the hospital.

Speaker 68 Do you have any idea why everyone in the picture looks relatively happy?

Speaker 43 That seemed like a strange question to me.

Speaker 30 Maybe he was going home at that time. But I mean, you know, we're taught to smile for our pictures.

Speaker 45 And the prosecutors asked other questions that didn't seem to have anything to do with the case.

Speaker 54 At one point, one of them even asked about me.

Speaker 33 This started with how you reached out to Dan's slide.

Speaker 43 And if I was paying JJ's legal fees.

Speaker 33 So Dan's footing the bill for this whole thing with Bob and Celia?

Speaker 49 Well, I would.

Speaker 31 What do you mean?

Speaker 24 Well, I thought Bob and Celia working pro bono.

Speaker 54 To be clear, I absolutely wasn't footing any bill.

Speaker 69 There was no bill.

Speaker 22 Bob and Celia were representing JJ for free.

Speaker 22 The meeting went on for three and a half hours.

Speaker 33 What was your routine like during that time period?

Speaker 30 During that time period, I mean,

Speaker 30 my day at that time was going to school in the morning and coming back and spending time with my family. That was my day.

Speaker 30 From time to time, I would go out.

Speaker 30 And if I did go out, I might go to Manhattan in the area where my father used to live at. That's 50 West 97th Street.

Speaker 33 Did you meet people in that area that became, you became very close together?

Speaker 34 I've known people in that area.

Speaker 61 So who'd you say were your five closest friends

Speaker 33 the prosecutor wanted names are you in touch with anyone from that neighborhood now

Speaker 37 when i watched this part of the interview i remember thinking why did it matter who jj's friends were at the time and if he was in touch with them now what did this have to do with the murder i'm just trying to get a sense of who your friends were what were you doing If you're trying to ask if I've ever sold drugs out there, I did.

Speaker 33 Okay, what area would you sell drugs?

Speaker 48 95th Street in Amsterdam.

Speaker 29 The prosecutor seemed really interested in this topic.

Speaker 33 It has to get bagged up.

Speaker 27 Someone gets the money.

Speaker 33 There's a percentage gotten from that from the guys on the street. So I want to understand a little bit about this period of time of your life,

Speaker 33 starting with when it started, who put you onto it, and how that operation, so to speak, unfolded.

Speaker 30 See, this is what I'm trying to explain.

Speaker 30 It really wasn't an operation that I was a part of. I wasn't a part of a big group.
I did things on my own.

Speaker 22 The meeting wrapped.

Speaker 33 This was a long time today, so I absolutely appreciate your time. Thank you.

Speaker 23 JJ was placed in handcuffs and driven back to Sing Sing. He remembers feeling angry and disgusted.

Speaker 70 They had no interest in the truth.

Speaker 66 They had no interest

Speaker 70 in whether I was innocent or guilty. They started asking me questions about who did what in the 90s.

Speaker 30 They wanted me to give them information about other crimes.

Speaker 31 I came down here to talk about homicide that I've been a victim of for years.

Speaker 31 And all you're worried about is what happened 15 years ago that you can't even charge people for? Is this a fucking joke?

Speaker 60 It was an interrogation. It was a three-hour interrogation.

Speaker 60 Now, I can understand that when we're asking you as the DA to do something drastic, I can understand you wanting to get to the bottom of what happened, the crime that took place.

Speaker 60 But it was so far afield of what we believed we were there for. It was just clear that they were not there in search of the truth.

Speaker 51 I reached out to the Manhattan DA's office at the time to see if anyone would talk to me on the record about this interview or their reinvestigation.

Speaker 42 All my requests were denied.

Speaker 7 But this wasn't the end.

Speaker 28 The DA's office was still reinvestigating JJ's case.

Speaker 41 And as I'd soon learned, the case was still very much unfolding.

Speaker 7 That same week, Celia called me with stunning news.

Speaker 22 Remember Mustafa, the guy the police were looking for before JJ ever entered the case, their, quote, primary target?

Speaker 7 A woman had called, saying she'd found him

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Speaker 71 JJ's lawyers, Bob and Celia, were on their way back from a court hearing in an unrelated case when Bob's phone rang.

Speaker 19 I get a message from my secretary that An individual called from out of state wanting to talk about the John Adrian Velasquez case, saying she had very important information to share with us.

Speaker 60 That they knew the person who committed this crime, that the person's name was Mustafa,

Speaker 60 that the person had admitted to them on more than one occasion that they were responsible for this crime. He had said that somebody else was serving time for a crime that he had committed.

Speaker 19 This obviously was significant information.

Speaker 26 When the lawyers got back to their office, they returned the call.

Speaker 27 It was from a woman who lived in Seattle.

Speaker 23 She said that she knew a man named Mustafa, that he was a drug dealer, and he'd admitted to her that he killed Al Ward.

Speaker 19 I asked that witness, are you willing to speak to the police? Yes.

Speaker 19 I hang up the phone. I don't file papers in court.
I don't send a letter to the district attorney. I pick up the phone, and I call Cyrus Vance.

Speaker 36 Cyrus Vance, the Manhattan District Attorney.

Speaker 60 We thought, well, this is, in essence, an open murder investigation. So we have to give this information to the district attorney's office and let them run with this.

Speaker 19 I say, Mr. Vance, I just spoke to a witness out of state, and this is what the individual tells me.

Speaker 19 He assured me that somebody from the DA's office, from the wrongful conviction unit, would give me a call.

Speaker 7 Bob says two hours later, he got a call from the head of the conviction integrity unit, Assistant DA Bonnie Sard.

Speaker 19 I relay all of this information to the assistant.

Speaker 19 And the assistant says, well, what do you want me to do?

Speaker 19 Now, I, as a former prosecutor and as a defense attorney for many years, I kind of knew what should be done. And I said, get someone out to speak to the witness.

Speaker 19 Well, the response came, I don't know if I can immediately get people to do this. And I said, wait a second, we have somebody serving a life sentence for murder, a murder of a retired cop.

Speaker 19 We have information that the person who was the primary target, Mustafa, confessed to the crime.

Speaker 19 You're telling me there's not some other human being somewhere in the DA's office, somewhere in the New York Police Department, who can run out and interview this witness? And the answer was no.

Speaker 19 It'll just have to wait unless you want to fly that witness to New York.

Speaker 60 We were dumbfounded. If they were really doing an independent investigation, they would have been on a plane the next day.

Speaker 60 And they weren't, but we were.

Speaker 43 Bob and Celia flew out to Seattle to meet the witness.

Speaker 27 It was a Sunday.

Speaker 51 She told them her story, how she'd become friends with a man named Mustafa, that he used to live in New York and had moved to Seattle in the late 1990s.

Speaker 7 She also told them she wasn't the only person Mustafa had confessed to.

Speaker 43 He'd also spoken to a friend friend of hers about the murder.

Speaker 19 We interrogated the witness to test whether or not the witness was believable. Did she have an ex to grind? Was there a motive for her to set up this guy?

Speaker 19 Based on what information we had and questioned the witness about, there was no motive for her to frame an innocent person.

Speaker 71 The witness ultimately signed an affidavit, swearing that Mustafa told her that he committed the crime.

Speaker 7 Bob says they were concerned the witness could be in danger if Mustafa learned she was talking to them.

Speaker 59 Still, Bob says the witness was willing to wear a hidden microphone and meet Mustafa at a Seattle nightclub that very evening.

Speaker 7 So he immediately called Bonnie Sard, the head of the CIU.

Speaker 19 And I say to her, you've got to send somebody over here to question the witness now. The witness is willing to do anything tonight.
The witness knows where Mustafa hangs out.

Speaker 19 We can end all of this tonight. I need somebody here.

Speaker 19 And the response was, why are you calling me on a Sunday?

Speaker 22 Bob says Sard told him that if there was an immediate safety concern, he should call 911.

Speaker 22 And it's worth noting, it would have been hard to get legal authorization for a wiretap in such a short period of time, given the laws in Washington state.

Speaker 48 And Sard did take action.

Speaker 39 Less than a week after Bob and Celia went to Seattle, the DA's office made arrangements to fly the witness to New York for an interview.

Speaker 26 She brought along the friend who said Mustafa had confessed to her too.

Speaker 39 Bob and Celia took the women to the DA's office.

Speaker 26 Then prosecutors from the CIU questioned the first witness.

Speaker 19 It was not, thank you very much for coming in. Please share with us what you have, just to see what you had.

Speaker 19 Right from the beginning, it was an interrogation where when we took a break after some two hours, the witness turns to me and says, it's clear they don't believe me.

Speaker 19 Why are they treating me like I'm a guilty person?

Speaker 60 She was treated like she had done something wrong.

Speaker 60 And there was never, ever, ever a moment when we were under the impression that they were going to do anything but discount everything that she had to say.

Speaker 60 And that's exactly what happened.

Speaker 24 In fact, the women said they felt so uneasy about that interview with the CIU that Bob recommended they get their own lawyer in case the DA's office contacted them again.

Speaker 39 So a few weeks later, he connected them with Ron Kuby, a well-known New York defense attorney.

Speaker 27 I'd known Ron for years from other stories, so I went down to his office to talk to him.

Speaker 61 Tell me how you got here involved with this case.

Speaker 61 I got an email over the weekend from my longtime colleague and friend Robert Gottlieb, and he he wanted to run something by me.

Speaker 61 He tells me the story of the Velasquez case, and our discussion most approximately focused on what I will characterize as the utter lack of interest of the so-called conviction integrity unit of D.A.

Speaker 61 Vance's office.

Speaker 39 After speaking with the two witnesses from Seattle, Ron agreed to represent them, pro bono.

Speaker 54 They were treated in an extremely unprofessional fashion.

Speaker 61 And it seemed they at least came away feeling that the primary purpose of their trip was to talk to people whose primary interest was in discrediting them.

Speaker 66 So I wrote what I thought, at least for me,

Speaker 61 was a reasonable letter saying, look, These women feel very uncomfortable with the tone that was taken, but they do want to cooperate.

Speaker 61 So just make sure that any contact you have with them in the future is done through me, and I'll be happy to arrange the next meeting. And instead, I find out today

Speaker 61 that a detective called to interrogate her about me.

Speaker 37 Really?

Speaker 61 You know you're not supposed to do that.

Speaker 45 Ron says when the CIU was created, he had hoped that it would operate openly and aggressively to review convictions to see if they were valid or not.

Speaker 75 That was the expectation.

Speaker 37 None of that has come to pass.

Speaker 27 They're not open. They're not transparent.

Speaker 61 They're completely adversarial.

Speaker 75 And they view

Speaker 75 wrongful conviction cases that are brought to them through the most skeptical prism imaginable.

Speaker 61 If you're going to look for the flaws in everybody else's arguments, the flaws in every potential witness, then you're never going to get to the truth because, you know, you can always find something to doubt.

Speaker 41 And that's exactly what Ron and JJ's lawyers think was happening in this case with JJ and with the two witnesses from Seattle.

Speaker 43 Of course, I was hearing all of this from defense attorneys who clearly had an issue with the Manhattan DA's CIU.

Speaker 43 I wanted to speak with the two witnesses.

Speaker 27 I wanted to hear their story and judge for myself if they seem credible.

Speaker 43 So I decided to fly to Seattle.

Speaker 45 And maybe while I was there, I would even drag down Mustafa.

Speaker 69 I arrived in Seattle on November 14th, 2012, and rented a hotel room near the airport.

Speaker 39 That's where I interviewed the witnesses. They agreed to speak with me as long as I didn't share their names.

Speaker 55 Tell me what brings us here.

Speaker 78 Because I have information on who is a real killer.

Speaker 21 The first witness moved to the U.S. as a teenager.

Speaker 4 She told me that she'd known this guy, Mustafa, for a few years, and that he'd moved from New York to Seattle in the late 1990s.

Speaker 49 She says she remembers one night in 2009 when Mustafa started talking about missing his son in New York.

Speaker 78 And I kept on asking him, why don't you go to your son? New York is not that far.

Speaker 78 He started talking about how he can't go to New York, that he have killed the police officer and he was scared to go back.

Speaker 78 So I asked him, So are you wanted? He said, no, he wasn't wanted because somebody else was doing his time.

Speaker 52 And so you didn't talk about it again?

Speaker 78 No, not really.

Speaker 39 Until when?

Speaker 78 Until March of 2012.

Speaker 69 March 2012, one month after my dateline special aired.

Speaker 27 It had mentioned the name Mustafa.

Speaker 78 We went to his house for the party and it was a lot of people in the house. Everybody was either drinking or doing drugs.
And Mustafa happened to be sitting on the couch, didn't seem to be having fun.

Speaker 78 And I noticed that he was actually crying. So I went up to him.
I said, Mustafa, are you okay?

Speaker 78 He's like, no, I'm so tired. I'm so tired of living in fear.
You guys don't understand.

Speaker 78 I was like, what's wrong? What's wrong? What happened? What happened, Mustafa? told me. He's like, I told you I killed a police officer.
I'm so tired of living in fear.

Speaker 78 One day they're going to catch me. I'm not trying to go to jail.
I said, is it actually true? He's like, yeah, what? You think I'm lying? I said, yeah, I think you're lying. Oh, really?

Speaker 78 Give me that phone. So he grabbed my phone and he went to the website, Free John Adrian Velazquez.

Speaker 23 Free John Adrian Velazquez.

Speaker 27 That's a website a friend of JJ's made to help publicize his case.

Speaker 78 And he started scrolling down, showing me everything, explaining every little little detail to me.

Speaker 28 She says he showed her the original police sketch of the shooter that was posted on the website.

Speaker 78 He's like, he showed me the scratch of him. He's like, you don't think that looks like me? I was like, not really, because this guy has Drelots and you have cornrows.

Speaker 78 He said, well, I used to have Drelots. Do you think I'm stupid? I had to cut it.

Speaker 38 So then what did you do?

Speaker 78 I stayed away from him.

Speaker 23 She told me she found the contact information for JJ's lawyers on the website Mustafa had showed her.

Speaker 43 I wondered if she had an agenda for telling this story.

Speaker 22 Maybe she had a problem with Mustafa.

Speaker 52 You have nothing against Mustafa?

Speaker 78 I have nothing against Mustafa.

Speaker 52 Don't know John Adrian Velasquez.

Speaker 78 I don't know John Adrian Velazquez.

Speaker 49 Then I spoke with her friend, the second witness.

Speaker 64 She told me she was scared, but still thought it was important to talk to me.

Speaker 34 Why are you so afraid?

Speaker 79 Because it's not a joke. Because it's something serious.

Speaker 79 It's a situation I've never been through before.

Speaker 48 It turns out she'd had a similar conversation with Mustafa a few years earlier.

Speaker 79 Well, me and Mustafa are drinking buddies. So

Speaker 79 we were just having a normal conversation, talked about his son, because I know he used to live in New York. And I'm like, why don't you go see your son or at least visit her?

Speaker 79 I haven't seen you go down there. And

Speaker 79 he kind of hesitate a little bit.

Speaker 79 I just seen a look in his face. I said, what's wrong?

Speaker 79 He's like,

Speaker 79 I didn't mean it.

Speaker 79 I can't go back. I didn't mean it for it to happen.

Speaker 79 I did something wrong. I killed somebody, and I can't go back.

Speaker 24 Did he leave it with that, or did he say who he killed?

Speaker 79 No, he didn't get into details. I was more in shock because I've known him for a while.
I don't see him the type of person like that. So I just try to avoid talking about the situation.

Speaker 24 And when he said it to you, did you believe him?

Speaker 79 I mean, mean the face, yeah.

Speaker 79 He was sincere.

Speaker 4 Both witnesses told me that their only motive for contacting JJ's lawyers was to help JJ, a man they'd never even met.

Speaker 48 I mean, what reason do you have to gain by coming forward now?

Speaker 3 And poor guy.

Speaker 38 There's no other reason.

Speaker 34 Yeah.

Speaker 39 I knew I couldn't leave Seattle without at least trying to talk to Mustafa.

Speaker 43 I wanted his side of the story.

Speaker 52 I'd already gotten information about him from JJ's lawyers in New York, and the witnesses confirmed his address.

Speaker 28 So I headed over to his house.

Speaker 66 So we don't know if Mustafa's home.

Speaker 66 You go check it out and take it from there.

Speaker 32 Keep left on W8509 South.

Speaker 21 I'm in a car with two other people.

Speaker 69 a cameraman to record whatever happens and an armed security guard that I've hired just in case.

Speaker 66 Like with that black mailbox, not this black mailbox, but the next one.

Speaker 33 Not this one, but the next one.

Speaker 33 One morning.

Speaker 36 We find Mustafa's house and park across the street.

Speaker 48 We watch the place for a while and make a plan.

Speaker 33 You ready, Tori?

Speaker 34 Yeah, already I won't go.

Speaker 25 We get out of the car and start walking up Mustafa's driveway.

Speaker 69 He lives in a pale yellow ranch with an overgrown overgrown yard.

Speaker 39 There's a sliding glass door with a sheet hanging like a curtain.

Speaker 65 The armed security guard and the cameraman are behind me.

Speaker 47 I knock several times.

Speaker 27 Soon, I see someone peeking out from one side of the sheet.

Speaker 39 He doesn't open the door, so I call out to him.

Speaker 56 How are you doing?

Speaker 5 My name is Dan.

Speaker 77 Mustafa, I want to talk to you about something. You might want to talk to me.

Speaker 54 I can't hear you.

Speaker 41 I can barely hear him behind the glass.

Speaker 37 Can you open the door a little crack so I can hear you?

Speaker 77 I wanted to talk to you about something that happened in New York.

Speaker 35 I'm from NBC News, Dateline.

Speaker 12 Are you aware that we did a show about a shooting in Manhattan?

Speaker 58 In Harlem.

Speaker 70 Just come and talk to me.

Speaker 3 I come to you in peace, man. I come to you for truth.

Speaker 7 We go back and forth for about five minutes.

Speaker 26 He finally agrees to come outside as soon as he gets dressed.

Speaker 29 He closes the curtain and disappears, which makes me a bit nervous.

Speaker 26 I'm not sure what's going to happen next.

Speaker 55 My security guard keeps his hand on his weapon.

Speaker 48 Is he coming out? He's going to come out, but keep your hand close.

Speaker 7 A few minutes later, Mustafa walks out with a lit cigarette in his hand. He's black in his early 40s.

Speaker 39 He's wearing a green wool hat, and there's a scar on the left side of his face running from his eyebrow to the middle of his cheek.

Speaker 57 It's hard to tell after all these years if he resembles the police sketch in JJ's files.

Speaker 55 I tell him about the murder of Al Ward in Harlem on January 27th, 1998, how one of the robbers shot and killed him.

Speaker 76 What you're telling me right now? It's something I never knew about. I never don't know suitable.

Speaker 62 But

Speaker 80 you have mentioned to people that you did do that.

Speaker 81 Me? No.

Speaker 80 See, this is... Let's be honest with each other.

Speaker 76 I swear to God, no, you're talking to me, right? Yeah. Me personally, me, Mustafa, no.

Speaker 81 Yeah, let's be honest.

Speaker 76 Yeah, I swear to God, I say no. I never talked.

Speaker 80 You never mentioned to anybody that you were involved with shooting a former police officer in New York?

Speaker 76 I never shoot. I never...

Speaker 80 Did you ever tell anybody you did it?

Speaker 76 No, I never talked to anybody about that. I never shoot.

Speaker 76 Why would I talk about shooting? I never done about shooting.

Speaker 22 I know this is the Mustafa the women were talking about, but I have no clue if he's the gunman or if he's even the same Mustafa that the NYPD had listed as their first primary target.

Speaker 49 But I want to test if he's being honest with me.

Speaker 25 So I start asking him questions I already know the answers to.

Speaker 76 And you're not a drug dealer? I'm not a drug dealer. I never do no shooting.
I swear to God.

Speaker 80 You've never sold drugs to anybody? No, no.

Speaker 76 I swear to God. You never robbed anywhere? I never robbed anyone.

Speaker 80 Never robbed anyone in your life?

Speaker 76 Never in my life.

Speaker 80 And you've never sold drugs anytime in your life?

Speaker 76 I never sell. In Harlem, I never lived in Harlem.
I swear to God, it wasn't me.

Speaker 76 If they say Mustafa is going to be different, Mustafa wasn't me. I swear to God, my life.

Speaker 52 I know he's not telling me the truth about his criminal history. I show him a printout of a background check I'd done on him.

Speaker 45 This is you.

Speaker 81 These are your former addresses.

Speaker 63 Correct?

Speaker 81 Am I right? Yeah.

Speaker 81 Okay, look, look, look, look.

Speaker 80 Robbery, second degree.

Speaker 53 Assault, fourth degree.

Speaker 7 Felony, controlled substance.

Speaker 80 Resisting arrest.

Speaker 80 So basically, you lied to me about all that, buddy.

Speaker 76 Assault, fourth degree.

Speaker 80 You lied to me.

Speaker 81 You told me that you were.

Speaker 76 You're talking about in New York.

Speaker 80 No, no, this is all here in Seattle.

Speaker 81 Yeah, okay.

Speaker 76 I'm talking about in New York. I swear to God, honestly, on everything I believe.
I never opened gunfire. I never lived in Harlem.
i never shoot somebody i never involved no shooting in my life

Speaker 76 and and you swear you've never told anybody that i swear to god i never because i never did it why would i tell somebody like that why did you move here why i moved from new york yeah i came here to go fishing to go fishing yeah my uncle lives here i came here they say it's a fishing job they make good money because i used to drive taxi in new york Why would anybody say that you said that that's what you did?

Speaker 76 No, I swear to God, nobody ever tell you that.

Speaker 76 If if somebody tell you that's it's me they lie

Speaker 80 you never heard of the name John Adrian Velasquez no on my life you just now tell me that's the first time you heard John Adrian Velasquez

Speaker 76 on my life

Speaker 80 why would anybody say

Speaker 80 that you said

Speaker 25 that somebody else is doing time for cop that you shot in New York? No.

Speaker 80 Why would anybody say that?

Speaker 76 No, I never say that.

Speaker 80 Why would anybody say that you said that?

Speaker 76 I swear to God, maybe they say wrong. I swear to God on my life, on everything I love, on God.

Speaker 36 Well, I appreciate the time you've taken.

Speaker 34 Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 39 After speaking with Mustafa, I wasn't sure what to think.

Speaker 7 He did lie about his arrest record, but his denials about the shooting were constant.

Speaker 29 And something else stood out to me.

Speaker 26 He had an accent.

Speaker 63 The eyewitnesses to Al Ward's murder had heard the shooter's voice. I double-checked the police reports.

Speaker 27 None of them ever mentioned an accent.

Speaker 51 I called the two women again and told them about Ustafa's denials. Once again, they insisted that Mustafa had told them he committed the murder.

Speaker 46 They seemed credible.

Speaker 54 But obviously, someone was lying.

Speaker 29 I just didn't know who.

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Speaker 24 I'm back in New York.

Speaker 4 It's now April of 2013.

Speaker 23 18 months have passed since the Conviction Integrity Unit began investigating JJ's case.

Speaker 71 I get a call from JJ's lawyers, Bob and Celia.

Speaker 26 They tell me they've received a letter from the Manhattan DA's office.

Speaker 71 They've arrived at a decision.

Speaker 60 We learned that they were denying our petition, and

Speaker 72 it wasn't at all surprising by that point.

Speaker 71 The head of the CIU, Bonnie Sard, laid out the details of the investigation in in a 16-page letter.

Speaker 28 She said her unit took JJ's claim of innocence seriously.

Speaker 41 Quote, we have conducted an extensive reinvestigation, which has included interviews of numerous witnesses and an in-depth review of documentary evidence from a wide variety of sources.

Speaker 43 She said they investigated Mustafa from Seattle.

Speaker 51 Quote, Our investigation indicated on the date of the crime, he was not in New York City, and that he was, quote, not involved in the murder of Albert Ward.

Speaker 59 She'd later say the DA's office found proof that Mustafa couldn't have been the killer, that there was, quote, documentary evidence that Mustafa was on a fishing boat off the Alaskan coast at the time.

Speaker 67 In the end, the CIU chief said, quote, this office has seriously considered your contention that Mr.

Speaker 26 Velazquez has been convicted for a crime that he did not commit.

Speaker 25 And quote, we have not found evidence sufficient to demonstrate that Mr.

Speaker 71 Velazquez is actually innocent for the crimes for which he was tried and convicted.

Speaker 19 It was just a confirmation of a sad reality that I had reached months and months before. The Conviction Integrity Unit was a sham.

Speaker 19 People should know that. And it was nothing more than a conviction protection racket.

Speaker 40 Conviction protection racket.

Speaker 52 This coming from an attorney who had served on the DA's transition team.

Speaker 43 By now, it was clear to me that anyone with common sense would see that JJ had been wrongfully convicted.

Speaker 56 Obviously, though, the DA disagreed, which surprised me.

Speaker 39 I mean, Sard herself acknowledged that the DA's office sent their own investigator to interview the key eyewitness, Augustus Brown, the first person who linked JJ to the murder.

Speaker 43 That investigator signed an affidavit.

Speaker 54 saying Brown told him that he picked JJ out at random, that he had, quote, always been certain that JJ was not Albert Ward's killer.

Speaker 45 And yet in that letter to JJ's attorneys, Bonnie Sard wrote, much of the information you have presented to us is essentially the same as the evidence that was presented to the jury that convicted your client.

Speaker 7 The CIU maintained that they had conducted a fair and thorough investigation, but they never even interviewed JJ's alibi witnesses.

Speaker 27 I've reached out to Bonnie Sard many times and we have spoken, but she's never agreed to go on the record about the details of this case.

Speaker 51 She no longer works in the DA's office, but did say in a statement, quote, Mr.

Speaker 43 Velasquez had a fair trial, and neither he nor we could prove his actual innocence.

Speaker 56 Our goal has always been to find the truth.

Speaker 7 I also reached out to her former boss, Cyrus Vance, the Manhattan DA at the time.

Speaker 39 He declined to be interviewed for this podcast, but he has said that his conviction integrity unit would, quote, review every claim without fear or favor.

Speaker 68 Anger and frustration from the family of a man doing 25 years to life for killing an ex-police officer. They say the Manhattan District Attorney is ignoring evidence that the man is innocent.

Speaker 28 One month after receiving the news of the CIU's decision, JJ's lawyers held a press conference to announce they were filing a motion with the court.

Speaker 19 We're here today to announce that we have filed

Speaker 19 a motion

Speaker 19 in the courthouse right behind me, a formal motion for the purpose of presenting evidence before a judge so that we now can go to a real neutral arbiter, a judge.

Speaker 19 The Conviction Integrity Unit turned out to be a waste, a colossal waste of our time as attorneys and much more significantly, a colossal waste of time for a man who sits in a jail cell waiting.

Speaker 19 The conviction integrity unit turned out to be a joke.

Speaker 27 JJ's mother, Maria, stepped up to the mic.

Speaker 60 It's been a cruel joke what the DA

Speaker 60 has played on this family because we trusted in him to bring us justice.

Speaker 60 And he didn't bring us justice.

Speaker 57 By now, I'd known Maria for years, and it was hard for me to watch her in so much pain, especially because I agreed with her.

Speaker 44 This did not appear to be a fair investigation.

Speaker 22 I wanted to understand why the DA's office would make a decision that seemed so contrary to the facts and evidence.

Speaker 64 Again, no one from the DA's office would talk to me on the record, but there was one person I was sure could provide some perspective, an insider's perspective.

Speaker 36 Former Manhattan Assistant DA Dan Bibb.

Speaker 83 I was sworn in August 23rd, 1982 by Robert Morgenthau, who was DA at the time.

Speaker 69 How many years were you in the Manhattan District?

Speaker 83 I was 24.

Speaker 24 There's not many people who have lived through what you have lived through.

Speaker 39 In that office, with your experience, with the wisdom you have, all of it.

Speaker 37 Nobody.

Speaker 43 Dan Bibb left the DA's office in 2006.

Speaker 28 four years before Cyrus Vance was elected and created the CIU.

Speaker 43 Dan says he quit in protest over the way his office handled his reinvestigation of a murder conviction, a case I'd reported on and helped make public.

Speaker 51 Two men had been locked up for the murder of a bouncer at the Palladium Nightclub in Manhattan.

Speaker 7 My investigation into that case revealed both men were innocent.

Speaker 44 Dan Bibbs' bosses at the DA's office assigned him to reinvestigate those convictions.

Speaker 49 He did that for more than a year, and he determined both men were wrongfully convicted.

Speaker 7 You become convinced that they're actually innocent.

Speaker 51 Right.

Speaker 51 You're in the DA's office as a prosecutor at the time.

Speaker 7 Right. And you were absolutely convinced through your own investigation for more than a year about this.

Speaker 37 100%.

Speaker 43 And you're telling this to your bosses at the DA's office.

Speaker 54 Of course.

Speaker 24 And what are they telling you?

Speaker 84 Those are some of the things I can't get into, but you can draw your own conclusions about what was happening in the DA's office when I would sit down with my boss, my boss's boss, and

Speaker 5 the boss.

Speaker 7 Apparently, his bosses disagreed with his assessment.

Speaker 57 The DA's office aggressively fought in court to keep those two men in prison.

Speaker 55 Without talking about privilege conversations, can you explain to people who are hearing this who are saying, here is a veteran district attorney who does an extensive investigation into a case of innocence and says, you know what?

Speaker 39 We got the wrong guys.

Speaker 55 There are two innocent guys in in prison.

Speaker 52 What is the culture inside that office that people are not listening to you when you know more than anybody else about it?

Speaker 84 Resistance, arrogance,

Speaker 83 you know, earplugs, blinders.

Speaker 83 We got it right.

Speaker 52 Do you think people in power at the DA's office did not want to know the truth?

Speaker 83 No, I told them the truth.

Speaker 5 They knew the truth.

Speaker 43 Ultimately, the real shooter confessed and a judge vacated the convictions of both men.

Speaker 54 Even so, the Manhattan DA retried one of those innocent men.

Speaker 26 He was acquitted and later compensated.

Speaker 43 I'd stayed in touch with Dan Bibb after he left the DA's office, and over the years, I'd spoken with him about JJ's case and shared some of his paperwork.

Speaker 55 How would you describe the conviction integrity unit that reinvestigated JJ's case?

Speaker 31 A joke.

Speaker 55 Do you think he got a fair shake?

Speaker 37 No.

Speaker 84 People in the DA's office often suffer from

Speaker 5 the we didn't get it wrong syndrome.

Speaker 84 The obvious sits in front of them, but they're not looking at the obvious. They're starting from the position of guilt, and they're starting from the position of we got it right the first time.

Speaker 84 And you've got to convince me otherwise. That's not necessarily sinister, maybe dishonest, it may be stupid, but it's not what a conviction integrity unit should be doing.

Speaker 39 And there's no doubt in your mind that that office had tunnel vision when it came to this?

Speaker 84 Yes, without a doubt.

Speaker 57 But there was still hope for JJ.

Speaker 55 His case was no longer in the hands of the Manhattan DA's office.

Speaker 41 His lawyers had filed that motion, asking a judge to hold a hearing so they could present evidence.

Speaker 45 JJ would wait for that decision for more than a year.

Speaker 71 It arrived in the first week of December 2014.

Speaker 71 The judge's answer was no.

Speaker 52 There would not be a hearing.

Speaker 9 In his decision, the judge agreed with the DA, saying that the new evidence was, quote, not sufficient to prove that JJ was innocent or that the outcome of the trial would have been different.

Speaker 55 Twelve years to the day after he sent me his first letter, JJ sat in his cell at his makeshift desk and began to write.

Speaker 86 December 5th, 2014,

Speaker 86 4.34 a.m.

Speaker 86 Dear Dan, it is is with great regret that I must sit here at this lonely hour and inform you that justice has no place in my life

Speaker 54 and that hope is just a cruel joke.

Speaker 86 I am not simply innocent. I am clearly innocent.
Everyone knows this. I'm writing this letter suffocating in this tiny ass cage.

Speaker 85 I want to scream so loud, but it won't make any sense because I'm not being heard.

Speaker 87 The craziest part of it all is that I may have to die before anyone really cares about what's actually happening.

Speaker 85 Do I have to jump off a prison tier with a noose around my neck to get people to realize that wrongful convictions are a slow death?

Speaker 85 Tell me, Dan, what's it gonna take?

Speaker 26 Next time.

Speaker 87 Doing time in prison is doing nothing to give back to your community. There is no reparations in that.

Speaker 66 Who you were when you came here is not who you are when you're leaving.

Speaker 66 And that's really

Speaker 20 the journey.

Speaker 32 I get home last night and there's this big yellow envelope in my mailbox.

Speaker 38 And inside are all of the police reports from JJ's case.

Speaker 31 I spent half of my life in prison because people want to hold back information because people want to continue to perpetuate lies.

Speaker 43 Letters from Sing Sing was written and produced by Preethi Varathon, Rob Allen, and me.

Speaker 65 Our associate producer is Rachel Young. Our story editor is Jennifer Gorin.

Speaker 28 Original score by Christopher Scullion, Robert Riale, and Four Elements Music.

Speaker 52 Sound design by Cedric Wilson.

Speaker 28 Fact-checking by Joseph Frischmuth.

Speaker 43 Bryson Barnes is our technical director. Preethivarathon is our supervising producer.

Speaker 27 Soraya Gage, Reed Jerlin, and Alexa Danner are our executive producers.

Speaker 40 Liz Cole runs NBC News Studios.

Speaker 27 Special thanks to Sean Gallagher.

Speaker 43 Letters from Sing Sing is in NBC News Studios production.

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