The lawsuit | Master Ep 7

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Speaker 8 Tortoise.

Speaker 2 It was a while back in October 2023 when Scarlett Pavlovich first contacted me.

Speaker 7 When I reached out to you, the fear that this maybe was a, you know, a one-off kind of, um, was a one-off event,

Speaker 7 uh,

Speaker 7 you just never know, right?

Speaker 2 Scarlett had filed a police report in New Zealand alleging that Neil Gaiman had assaulted her, but felt that New Zealand's police were dragging their heels.

Speaker 2 So when she got in touch, it was in part because she felt she had nowhere else to go.

Speaker 7 And, you know, I stepped over those guardrails and I walked down that trail and

Speaker 7 believed in you and believed in Paul and believed in Tortoise.

Speaker 2 With Paul Caruana Galizia, then a reporter at Tortoise, now at the Financial Times, we spent months investigating Scarlett's allegations.

Speaker 2 Scarlett's account was of degrading, violent and rough sex that she says she never consented to.

Speaker 2 Her story was complicated and nuanced and she knew that. As time went on, we learnt just how complicated it was.

Speaker 8 The interesting thing is, last night, Scarlett shared her WhatsApp history with me,

Speaker 11 so chats, videos, photos.

Speaker 8 And the really unusual thing

Speaker 11 for a reporter is it allows us to see the same issue from very different angles.

Speaker 7 The messages are really hard for me to go through because of, you know, my delusion. You know, I'm so furious with myself.

Speaker 2 She shared with us a long trail of affectionate and flirtatious messages between her and Neil Gaiman that appeared to verify his side of the story.

Speaker 2 that any sexual contact he had with Scarlett or any of the other women who spoke to us was consensual.

Speaker 2 Across the series we heard the accounts of four more women, Kendra, Julia, Claire and Caroline.

Speaker 12 You guys break the story with Scarlett and when I listened to that it was absolutely my story with you know with with different details but the same thing the master the coercion the the having no money and being incredibly vulnerable all of it it was just my story again this is Caroline Woolner an artist who lived on Neil Gaiman's estate in Woodstock in upstate New York She had a loose deal that she and her family could live there in exchange for her and her husband doing errands and caretaking.

Speaker 2 But after her marriage broke down, she says she felt pressured into having sex with Gaiman in return for him allowing her and her three teenage daughters to stay in the house.

Speaker 2 Eventually, she was ordered to leave.

Speaker 2 Following treatment for depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, Caroline received a payment of $275,000 from Neil Gaiman, along with a non-disclosure agreement, which prohibited her from talking about Gaiman with members of her family, any friends or associates, or from taking any court action against him.

Speaker 12 I had to keep all this stuff secret, and it was an incredibly unhealthy experience for me. And I didn't really even know it, you know, because

Speaker 12 I don't know, I was just trying to get past it and I couldn't because I hadn't spoken about it.

Speaker 12 Then your story comes out and then it was just this moment of clarity and I decided to do it and I called Paul and, you know, and I was really hesitant at first.

Speaker 2 Caroline disregards her NDA and speaks out.

Speaker 2 For Scarlett, hearing the accounts of the other women was healing.

Speaker 7 You don't know if when you walk through that trail, you're going to find another person and what an experience it was to be in those woods and then to step into an open meadow full of wise women that

Speaker 7 understand

Speaker 7 and now we hold each other and what an honor. It feels like a counter-revolution against the isolation and alienation of abuse.
Yeah, we've found... great solace in each other.

Speaker 2 Then, this January, New York magazine publishes a cover story entitled, There Is No Safe Word, How the Best-Selling Fantasy Author Neil Gaiman Hid the Darkest Parts of Himself for Decades.

Speaker 2 The article's built on tortoises reporting and also extends the number of women making allegations to nine, both on and off the record.

Speaker 2 The next day, The author releases a statement on his website entitled, Breaking the Silence.

Speaker 13 Some of the horrible stories now being told simply never happened, while others have been so distorted from what actually took place that they bear no relationship to reality.

Speaker 13 I am prepared to take responsibility for any missteps I made. I'm not willing to turn my back on the truth, and I can't accept being described as someone I am not.

Speaker 13 and cannot and will not admit to doing things I didn't do.

Speaker 2 And there was a strenuous denial that any of the sex was unconsensual.

Speaker 13 As I read through this latest collection of accounts, there are moments I half-recognize and moments I don't.

Speaker 13 Descriptions of things that happened sitting beside things that emphatically did not happen. I'm far from a perfect person.
but I have never engaged in non-consensual sexual activity with anyone.

Speaker 14 Ever.

Speaker 13 As I reflect on my past and as I re-review everything that actually happened as opposed to what is being alleged, I don't accept there was any abuse.

Speaker 2 Amanda Palmer also posts a much shorter statement on social media. She can't offer comment, she says.
She is first and foremost a parent.

Speaker 2 And then, just one day, before the three-year statute of limitations to file a case in the US is about to expire.

Speaker 7 Dated February 3rd, 2025.

Speaker 7 United States District Court, Western District of Wisconsin.

Speaker 2 Scarlett files a civil lawsuit in three U.S. states.

Speaker 7 Scarlett Pavlovich, plaintiff, against Neil Gaiman, Amanda Palmer, defendants.

Speaker 7 This claim arises out of defendant Neil Gaiman's sexual abusive plaintiff and his wife, Amanda Palmer's role in procuring and presenting plaintiff to Gaiman for such abuse.

Speaker 2 What's immediately striking is that the filing includes allegations against Amanda Palmer as well as Neil Gaiman.

Speaker 2 It alleges that together they violated laws on human trafficking.

Speaker 2 And as well as complaints of assault, battery and inflicting emotional distress against Neil Gaiman, there's an accusation of negligence against Amanda Palmer.

Speaker 2 Of course, Scarlett's lawsuit is just one side in a legal case. It's not yet been heard or cross-examined in court, and neither Neil Gaiman nor Amanda Palmer have filed their defence.

Speaker 2 Nevertheless, it's a detailed and in places graphic document.

Speaker 2 Not necessarily because many new allegations have emerged from it, but because of what we can now report and what it means.

Speaker 2 I'm Rachel Johnson from Tortoise. This is The Master, The Allegations Against Neil Gaiman.

Speaker 2 Episode 7.

Speaker 2 The Lawsuit.

Speaker 2 Scarlett, I can't believe you're here.

Speaker 7 Same.

Speaker 9 Same.

Speaker 2 After dozens of hours of online conversations and phone calls, I'm finally sitting opposite Scarlett in Tortoise's studio in London.

Speaker 7 It's always surprising who you hear from. Extended friends have reached out to me from years ago,

Speaker 7 you know, or people that I worked with years and years ago, and the support has been really, really

Speaker 7 emboldening.

Speaker 2 What about your family?

Speaker 7 It's been a challenge because

Speaker 7 they don't understand what I'm going through, and they don't have the vocabulary to understand what I'm going through. My family think that

Speaker 7 this is about

Speaker 7 publicity,

Speaker 7 which is extraordinary.

Speaker 7 And they don't seem to understand the

Speaker 7 danger that comes with speaking out as a woman about abuse and speaking out publicly with where you are and

Speaker 7 what you look like. And so,

Speaker 7 yeah, my family, it's difficult.

Speaker 2 Scarlett's now a student at St Andrew's University in Scotland reading history of art and a long way from home.

Speaker 7 Even when I'm alone in Scotland or, you know, chipping away at books and just knowing that

Speaker 7 there are people that get that get it. You know, there are women, you know, they really feel like families that understand so instinctively.

Speaker 2 Chief among her supporters are Kendra and Caroline. I'm struck by the incredible bond between them.

Speaker 12 We're both like, we don't have any money. We don't have any power.
The only thing that we have is our courage, you know? Our courage in our voices, and that's what you're using.

Speaker 2 They have, it seems, drawn strength from each other.

Speaker 7 I cannot tell you what an act of recovery that is.

Speaker 7 You know, this year is about

Speaker 7 continuing that.

Speaker 2 What she means by this year is the lawsuit filed in three states against Neil Gaiman and Amanda Palmer.

Speaker 2 When we left your story back in, you know, July, Scarlett,

Speaker 2 it was really unfinished and you felt, as I remember, that you'd never had any accountability.

Speaker 2 Is this filing one way that you are now trying to get the accountability that you feel you've been denied?

Speaker 7 I think this is about how can,

Speaker 7 as a woman, how do you get justice? I think this is about also about the journey from being a victim to a survivor. A lot of that involves

Speaker 7 being the adult in the room that maybe your younger version of yourself needed at that time.

Speaker 2 When Scarlett met Amanda, she was 22.

Speaker 2 When she was allegedly first assaulted by Neil Gaiman, she was 23.

Speaker 2 She's now 26, but she says she won't let this go for the sake of any young people who might come after her.

Speaker 7 If you have the strength to be able to, I do think it's a responsibility.

Speaker 2 Scarlett has tried to get justice before. She reported allegations of abuse by Neil Gaiman to the police in New Zealand and was interviewed in January 2023.

Speaker 2 But the police felt Scarlett's messages and interactions with Neil Gaiman meant there wasn't a reasonable prospect of conviction. This time, Scarlett is using the civil courts.

Speaker 7 Gaiman has a decades-long history of sexual misconduct consistent with the actions that will be described in the following paragraphs.

Speaker 2 The lawsuit is a 27-page document which painstakingly lays out allegation after allegation. Scarlett didn't want to discuss the allegations in detail.

Speaker 2 Her view is that the claim should stand on its own as a record of what happened to her, but she did read some parts of it out.

Speaker 7 This misconduct includes sexual contact with multiple women who have not consented to his actions.

Speaker 7 In cases where his victims submitted to sexual contact with gaymen, his actions have often exceeded any consent that might have been granted.

Speaker 2 That line, his actions have often exceeded any consent that might have been granted, acknowledges that grey area that we've frequently referred to throughout this story, that if you're in a relationship with someone, what does consent for each and every sexual act look like?

Speaker 2 The lawsuit goes on.

Speaker 7 Since at least 2015, Palmer has been aware of Gaiman's pattern of sexual misconduct.

Speaker 2 One thing the claim does, which our original reporting didn't, is accuse Amanda Palmer of complicity, of enabling Neil Gaiman's behaviour towards Scarlett.

Speaker 2 In a statement to us, a spokesperson for Amanda Palmer said, Amanda Palmer denies the allegations made against her by Scarlett Pavlovich.

Speaker 2 She first became aware of the sexual assault allegations against Mr. Gaiman from the Tortoise podcast.
While Ms. Palmer finds these allegations disturbing, she will not comment further at this time.

Speaker 2 Scarlett is seeking at least $7 million in damages. That's about £5.5 million.

Speaker 14 I think the main thing is this shift in focus onto Amanda.

Speaker 2 I'm going through the lawsuit with Paul Caruana Galizia.

Speaker 14 There's a heading that says Palmer as an Amanda Palmer target Scarlet

Speaker 14 and makes very clear that Scarlett was brought into this whole story by Amanda Palmer in Auckland, New Zealand in 2020, it says. And we knew that.

Speaker 14 But the way it's written out

Speaker 14 in this lawsuit

Speaker 14 is to say this started with Amanda. Later on it says Amanda aided and abetted Neil Gaiman's behaviour.

Speaker 14 So Amanda goes from being a kind of almost background figure to a protagonist.

Speaker 2 And a co-defendant.

Speaker 14 That's right. It's filed against both of them.

Speaker 14 And I think that's significant. I think that's really significant, actually.
Because when we were working on the podcast, it was this kind of question we were always asking.

Speaker 14 what role did she play did she know how much did she know

Speaker 2 I think it's become impossible to ignore her role at one point the civil claim alleges that Amanda Palmer had told Neil Gaiman that Scarlett was vulnerable it's something we reported on that Scarlett said that Neil Gaiman had told her Amanda told me I couldn't have you It sounds there like Amanda Palmer is trying to keep the two separate to protect Scarlet,

Speaker 2 but the legal filing implies a different motive.

Speaker 14 Interestingly, Scarlett's lawsuit says

Speaker 14 that

Speaker 14 even if Amanda Palmer told Neil Gaiman he couldn't have Scarlet,

Speaker 14 saying that would have fueled Neil Gaiman's desire to have Scarlett as a sexual partner, regardless of Scarlett's desire or consent. And then, in fact,

Speaker 14 on page eight, we have Palmer, in other words, either knew or should have known that she was marking Scarlett as prey in Gaiman's eyes.

Speaker 7 The job required her to care for the child at both Palmer and Gaiman's houses.

Speaker 7 Palmer and Gaiman promised that Scarlett would be paid for the work, but Palmer and Gaiman did not pay Scarlett for the work. She was, in effect, an economic hostage to Palmer and Gaiman.

Speaker 2 Scarlett's told us that some money was eventually transferred, but insists she wasn't paid by the couple until after she'd stopped working for them.

Speaker 2 Non-payment is something that Caroline also accuses Neil Gaiman of.

Speaker 12 He took away my living situation. He took away my work.
You know, what he did to me was, you know, it was basically like prostitution. I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 12 It was like he was threatening me with eviction.

Speaker 12 and making me give him blowjobs and and terror, you know, I was terrified. And then when I stopped, he evicted me immediately.

Speaker 2 Neil Gaiman's position is that the oral sex for rent arrangement is an outrageous and false claim.

Speaker 2 In the words of his account, their relationship was entirely consensual, and she instigated sex with him.

Speaker 2 In addition, Neil Gaiman's position is that asking Caroline to leave the property was always a possibility as she'd been living there with her family rent-free for the preceding six years.

Speaker 2 Caroline says she was dependent on Neil Gaiman for keeping a roof over her and her three daughters' heads.

Speaker 2 She alleges that she was providing sexual services and domestic services for a number of weeks without any recompense at all, and the instability it caused made her vulnerable and unable to consent.

Speaker 14 I think the story really tested

Speaker 14 our understanding of consent and coercion.

Speaker 14 So there is a tendency for people to report on quite clear-cut sexual misconduct stories, like a clear-cut case of assault or rape.

Speaker 14 When you have situations like the

Speaker 14 ones the women we spoke to described,

Speaker 14 where the allegations of assault existed within

Speaker 14 these strange, problematic relationships, it becomes very hard because

Speaker 14 you do have this kind of evidence of consent. You know, you have people saying, I miss you, I love you, and so on.

Speaker 2 There were multiple messages from Scarlett along these lines. This one that reads, it was consensual.
How many times do I have to fucking tell everyone?

Speaker 2 And another that says, I think you're a wonderful person and a friend. I would never me to you.
I don't know where that came from. And I have told Amanda that even though it began questionably,

Speaker 2 eventually it was undoubtedly consensual and I enjoyed it.

Speaker 14 I began thinking differently about these issues that I remember thinking

Speaker 14 you can't expect someone to make a free choice under the conditions you described, whether dependent on the man in this case for

Speaker 14 housing, employment,

Speaker 14 all stability really, Scarlett had in her life at that point.

Speaker 2 The key question for us was consent freely given.

Speaker 14 He came back to us via his lawyers and said,

Speaker 14 what was I supposed to think? Look at all these messages they sent me.

Speaker 2 But even when such messages appear to show love and support and when in this case they also imply that consent was freely given, there are still questions to answer about how a person who has power and wealth treats someone who is reliant on them for their housing and their job.

Speaker 2 Can there be reasonable belief in consent when the power imbalance is so stark?

Speaker 2 There's something else in the legal filing.

Speaker 7 Some incidences took place in the presence of Gaiman and Palmer's child.

Speaker 2 Scarlett's claim details an allegation of sexual assault that she says took place in a hotel room in Auckland in New Zealand in February 2022 while Neil Gaiman's child played on an iPad nearby.

Speaker 2 Neil Gaiman has vehemently denied this version of events.

Speaker 2 His account is that on this day they cuddled fully clothed under the bedclothes. and that his son was not exposed to any sexual act.

Speaker 2 His position overall is that he never had full penetrative sex with Scarlett. He has described her version of events as false and defamatory.

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Speaker 2 I wanted to know what Scarlett's life had been like since she shared her story with us. Did having her story out there change anything?

Speaker 2 What has this cost you? What have you lost?

Speaker 7 I think

Speaker 7 it feels so cliche to say youth, doesn't it?

Speaker 7 No. And yet and yet I used to tr have a lot more trust

Speaker 7 in terms of other people and my day-to-day relationships. And I think I've just, you know, naturally one wants to sort of clench up.

Speaker 7 And so it's a constant kind of

Speaker 7 like act of surrender every day to remember to

Speaker 7 not seize up whenever

Speaker 7 I'm having a real conversation or, you know, there's a sense of intimacy, I think, that I had before with how I engage with the world. And the loss is definitely around the barriers that

Speaker 7 I have erected, you know, that are

Speaker 7 hard as stone.

Speaker 2 Privacy. For Scarlett, all the details are exposing.
She gets online hate as well as support. And it's hard when you meet new people, especially when you're starting out at university.

Speaker 7 You're that Scarlett. That's hard to navigate, knowing that they've probably read like

Speaker 7 some pretty grotesque stuff about what happened. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And now she faces the prospect of it all being aired in a courtroom.

Speaker 7 This is terrifying

Speaker 7 because it's

Speaker 7 opening myself up

Speaker 7 to

Speaker 7 every which way of scrutiny. And that's not because I haven't told the truth or been duplicitous.
That's because

Speaker 7 the role of the law is not to really scrutinise him, it's really always to scrutinize

Speaker 7 me, correct?

Speaker 2 At times she seems strong enough for the ordeal ahead of her, at other times less so.

Speaker 7 I'm grateful to be able to talk to you right now. It's still coloured by this,

Speaker 7 the most horrible thing and the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to me.

Speaker 7 And the thing that almost took my life more than a few times, you know, that that continued to make me suicidal last year. And

Speaker 7 that doesn't leave

Speaker 7 as brave of a face as I can put on right now today.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 the exhaustion. I'm exhausted.
I am so exhausted.

Speaker 2 Scarlett draws most of her strength and her stamina from the other women, including Kendra and Caroline.

Speaker 12 Scarlett, she's a queen. Just the courage and the tenacity and just of her staying with this.

Speaker 12 And I think that once you're you hear all these stories from other women, like I know Scarlett feels like this because I feel like this too, you know that you have to do this, you know, like it's the only right thing to do.

Speaker 2 And the right thing to do, say Caroline, Kendra and Scarlett, is to try and get some form of accountability.

Speaker 2 Some of the women have formed a WhatsApp group and a couple of months ago they got together in person.

Speaker 7 It was coming on Christmas Eve in Scotland and everyone had left St Andrews and I got an email from a

Speaker 7 mysterious benefactor and woman who will not be named knew that I was having a really lonely, lonely December period at St Andrews because

Speaker 7 truly it felt like I was the last student standing and

Speaker 7 I had a ticket in my inbox.

Speaker 2 Scarlett got on a plane and flew to the US.

Speaker 7 Kendra picked me up from the airport with her husband and we

Speaker 7 drove that night. It was Christmas Eve.
We drove to a cabin in the woods and I met her parents and we all we all had a beautiful wholesome Christmas. But Kendra and I just spent...

Speaker 7 It was like meeting a sister, truly.

Speaker 2 Well you look alike of course. Yes we we do.

Speaker 7 We do. And then a few days,

Speaker 7 after a few days in the cabin,

Speaker 7 we drove to Athens and had

Speaker 7 New Year's with

Speaker 7 Caroline and Michael Stipe.

Speaker 2 Yes, that Michael Stipe, lead singer of REM and an old friend of Caroline Woolner's.

Speaker 12 I was staying at his house over New Year's. I always do.
I always spend New Year's with him and just Garlic came and Kendra and

Speaker 12 it was amazing. I mean, it was honestly like the best feeling in the world.
We all had a bonfire and wrote things.

Speaker 7 We wrote resolutions for 2025 and threw them into the fire.

Speaker 12 The things we wanted the new year to bring, the things we wanted to let go of.

Speaker 7 Mine was about reclamation and,

Speaker 7 you know, a real act of repair. This year I have to be.
a survivor. And I like that word, you know.

Speaker 7 I'm really interested in how you can alchemise, you you know, when you're in such a state of subordination, disempowerment, you know, transforming that into stamina, truth, knowledge, power,

Speaker 7 and just standing up to bullies.

Speaker 2 We approached Neil Gaiman directly and via his lawyers for his response to the allegations in the legal claim filed against him and Amanda Palmer. We received no reply.

Speaker 2 Thank you for listening. This episode was written and reported by me, Rachel Johnson, and by Katie Gunning, who is also the producer.
Additional reporting was by Phoebe Davis.

Speaker 2 Sound design was by Dominic DeLargy. The executive producer for the Slow Newscast is Matt Russell.
The editor was Jasper Corbett.

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