The NDAs | Master Ep 5

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Speaker 19 Tortoise

Speaker 16 Before we begin, I should warn you, this is a hard listen at times. The episode contains graphic descriptions of sex and allegations of sexual abuse.

Speaker 16 This episode is intended to be listened to after the first four episodes. All five are designed to be listened to in their entirety because this is a story of conflicting accounts.

Speaker 20 I just heard the news about Neil Gaiman and I'm really upset.

Speaker 16 On Wednesday, 3rd of

Speaker 16 2024, just after 3 p.m. in New York, a woman emails her lawyer.

Speaker 20 I feel as though I did not do enough and he continued to be a predator. I do have a couple of questions for you.
Can I offer my support to those who are accusing him?

Speaker 20 What does the NDA I signed prevent me from doing? Even though I was compensated financially, that entire episode in my life has had lasting traumatic effects on me to this day.

Speaker 16 It was the same day that we published our investigation into two women's allegations of sexual assault against Neil Gaiman, which he strenuously denied.

Speaker 16 One of those two women spoke up despite having signed an NDA.

Speaker 16 A non-disclosure agreement. A contract that restricts what a signatory can say or who they can tell about something.

Speaker 16 And now,

Speaker 16 another woman wants to speak out, despite another NDA, a particularly robust one.

Speaker 21 It is the intention of the parties that all confidential information, including any confidential materials, shall remain confidential as expressly provided herein.

Speaker 16 In the fog of this story, these NDAs are about the only thing there in black and white.

Speaker 21 Except for the obligations arising from this agreement, claimants and each of them and their corporations and or related entities hereby irrevocably, unconditionally and completely release, discharge and hold harmless gayman, his corporations and related entities.

Speaker 16 The emails, WhatsApps, photos and videos we have heard about in this story, they can shift and shimmer depending from where and when you see them.

Speaker 16 But the NDAs are contractual documents. They are designed to leave no room for ambiguity.
Complete silence around Neil Gaiman.

Speaker 21 Gaiman's family members including but not limited to Amanda Palmer and all of Gaiman's agents, managers, business managers and attorneys.

Speaker 16 Scarlett was the first woman to speak out against Neil Gaiman.

Speaker 16 She alleged that he sexually assaulted her on her first day of work as his child's nanny in New Zealand. It was February 2022.

Speaker 16 She was 22, he was 61.

Speaker 16 Scarlett also alleged that he subjected her to rough and degrading sex during their three-weeks sexual relationship that followed.

Speaker 16 Neil Gaiman's account strenuously denied her allegations, claiming that their sexual relationship was entirely consensual.

Speaker 16 Months after that relationship ended, along with Scarlett's job as his child's nanny, she asked him for help with rent money. He agreed and then asked her to sign an NDA.

Speaker 16 The NDA was backdated to her first day at work to the day he allegedly assaulted her. Neil Gaiman's position was that NDAs are standard for the domestic staff of prominent individuals.

Speaker 16 But about a month before Scarlett entered his life, another woman, the one in New York, was signing an NDA with Neil Gaiman.

Speaker 21 From any and all claims, demands, liabilities, suits, debts, obligations, controversies, costs, expenses, accounts, damages, losses, or judgments of every kind or character, defenses and causes of action arising in law or equity that claimants ever had, now have, or hereafter may have.

Speaker 16 It's 16 pages long. It's dated the 20th of December 2021.

Speaker 16 And it demands a lot of her.

Speaker 21 The parties agree that they shall not directly or indirectly, verbally or otherwise, publish, disseminate, disclose, post any confidential information to any person, group, firm or entity whatsoever, including but not limited to family members, friends, associates, family/slash friends, journalists, media organizations, newspapers, periodicals.

Speaker 16 Her name is Caroline Warner.

Speaker 22 The power that he felt over us is just wrong.

Speaker 22 And I want him to know that that does not exist.

Speaker 16 And for about seven years, she lived lived on Neil Gaiman's property with her three daughters and, for a while, her husband.

Speaker 16 They were in a small house that belonged to Neil Gaiman and that was adjacent to his own home in Woodstock, in upstate New York.

Speaker 16 But according to the NDA, she cannot discuss any of what happened during those seven years to anyone in her life.

Speaker 16 She can only disclose its accompanying financial settlement of $275,000

Speaker 16 to her lawyers or accountants if they first agree to the same confidentiality.

Speaker 16 She can never talk about what happened between her and Neil Gaiman. The document, also

Speaker 21 in black and white, disputes and denies that Walner has sustained any losses, damages or injuries for which Gaiman is legally responsible.

Speaker 19 Neil Gaiman's position is that although he vehemently disputes Caroline Woolner's allegations of repeated sexual abuse, he settled with her to avoid protracted and expensive litigation.

Speaker 19 His position is that an NDA was necessary with Caroline because he believed the allegations would have been used to threaten adverse media publicity.

Speaker 19 Neil Gaiman's use of NDAs appears to conflict with his totemic public position that he's a free speech absolutist.

Speaker 19 His use of NDAs where women have made sexual abuse allegations appears to conflict with another one of his public positions as a supporter of women's rights and campaigner against sexual abuse.

Speaker 19 When we asked about these apparent conflicts, We were told that Neil Gaiman rejects any allegation of hypocrisy and that there's no public interest in this story, whose publication would expose Tortoise to significant legal risk.

Speaker 16 We do think there's a public interest. The original allegations were about non-consensual sex within a relationship.

Speaker 16 They raised questions about whether Neil Gaiman could have had, or should have had, reasonable belief in consent for sex with vulnerable women. His position is that there was consent.

Speaker 16 But asking two women to sign NDAs suggests that he himself doesn't have much confidence in that position, that the public wouldn't believe it, so the allegations must be silenced.

Speaker 19 It's been close to a month since the publication of our investigation into the accounts of two women.

Speaker 19 who alleged that during the course of their relationships with Neil Gaiman, he sexually assaulted them.

Speaker 19 Although the vast majority of sexual assault cases happen within relationships, most allegations go unreported because of the expectation that alleged victims would not be in a relationship with their alleged assaulter.

Speaker 19 While the law says that consent is for each and every sexual act, many people assume that a relationship provides ongoing consent.

Speaker 19 The two women were Scarlet and a woman whose initial is Kay.

Speaker 19 Kay was 18 when she met Neil Gaiman at a book signing in Sarasota, Florida in 2003.

Speaker 19 She began a sexual relationship with him when she turned 20 and he was in his mid-40s, but alleges that she submitted to rough and painful sex that she neither wanted nor enjoyed.

Speaker 19 In one incident, she alleges he penetrated her despite her asking him not to, as she was suffering from a painful infection. His account denied any unlawful behavior with Kay.

Speaker 19 Since publication, a number of other women have got in touch. One of them is Caroline Woolmer.

Speaker 19 I'm Rachel Johnson.

Speaker 16 And I'm Paul Caruana Galizia.

Speaker 16 You're listening to the Slow Newscast from Tortoise.

Speaker 16 This is Master, Episode 5, The NDAs.

Speaker 16 So, Caroline, with it. I know this is going to feel like a lot,

Speaker 16 but could we start from the beginning?

Speaker 16 Caroline Warner is now 63 years old. We speak over Zoom.
Her story falls in the middle of K's and Scarlets.

Speaker 22 So we're basically living there

Speaker 22 2014. We lived in that little place next to theirs.

Speaker 16 Caroline is a ceramicist, her husband a builder and musician.

Speaker 16 They met Neil Gaiman and his then wife, the feminist punk rock star Amanda Palmer, a few years earlier as the celebrity couple rented a house near Caroline's studio.

Speaker 16 Both couples are looking for a property to buy when Neil Gaiman buys a place in Woodstock, New York.

Speaker 16 It had belonged to Albert Grossman, Bob Dylan's manager, famously featured on the sleeve of the album, Bringing It All Back Home.

Speaker 16 Neil Gaiman had been appointed by nearby Bard College as professor in the arts and was due to start teaching in spring 2014.

Speaker 16 At this point, Amanda Palmer and Niamh Gaiman aren't around much. So they felt they needed someone to manage the property.

Speaker 22 You know, I remember it very well. We were sitting at dinner and

Speaker 22 they wanted us to move in there and be the caretakers because they were never around that much. And, you know, they would pay for us to do stuff.

Speaker 16 So in 2014, Caroline, her husband and their three daughters move in.

Speaker 22 I mean, it was like changing the locks and cleaning and he had to clean the pool and do this. There was gardening, there was shopping for his guests who were constant.

Speaker 16 It was full on when Neil Gaiman and Amanda Palmer were there.

Speaker 22 Picking people up at the airport, picking people up at the train, hiring people all the time, finding plumbers, finding different people to work on the property and do this and that.

Speaker 16 Caroline says that part of the deal is that the couple do odd jobs for Niamh Gaiman and Amanda Palmer. In return, they get to live in the house and Caroline can use an adjacent studio for her work.

Speaker 16 And, over time, a five-acre plot on the property for a reduced price. A handshake deal.

Speaker 16 It's hard work, but Caroline holds on to the prospect of owning that plot. to build a house for her own family.

Speaker 16 In February 2017, three years into the caretaking arrangement, Caroline and her husband separate. Their breakup, an end to a 17-year marriage, devastates Caroline.

Speaker 16 First, emotionally and then financially.

Speaker 22 But that's when Neil fires them and then Neil was basically, I choose you.

Speaker 16 Neil Gaiman's account is that he let Caroline's ex-husband go because he was an unreliable worker.

Speaker 16 Caroline stays on the estate with her three daughters while her now ex-husband, who provided the primary income, moves out.

Speaker 22 That's when Neil was really, really nice to me. He was really kind.

Speaker 22 Bringing me juices,

Speaker 22 sending me texts.

Speaker 16 But with the marriage ended, Caroline is now dependent on Neil Gaiman for her income and for the home in which she and her three daughters live.

Speaker 16 At this point, Caroline, 55 years old, is not in a good state.

Speaker 22 I lost 20 pounds. I couldn't sleep, couldn't work, couldn't do anything because of my divorce and I was really underweight and kind of a mess.

Speaker 16 And the dynamic begins to shift. Neil Gaiman had been away.
in Australia.

Speaker 22 And then when he came back, he asked me to take a sauna with him.

Speaker 16 The sauna was on the Woodstock estate.

Speaker 22 And then the sauna was when it started. I remember him kissing me at the sauna that first time and

Speaker 22 I don't know, putting his hands on me, putting my hand on him.

Speaker 22 I mean, this is what's embarrassing. I did think maybe he liked me.

Speaker 16 But then she realizes that wasn't what was going on because he told her.

Speaker 22 And I said,

Speaker 22 what would Amanda say about this? And he said, about what? And I said, about this romance.

Speaker 22 That's what's embarrassing. And he said, Caroline, there is no romance.

Speaker 22 And at that point, I mean, that was like the second or third time he'd like, you know, done that with me.

Speaker 16 Caroline feels that she has been locked into a bargain.

Speaker 22 And there was like little hints of,

Speaker 22 we're going to need the house back.

Speaker 22 And I remember saying,

Speaker 22 let's talk about it. Let's figure it out.
That's when he would just come to my studio and

Speaker 22 make me give him a blowjob.

Speaker 16 Caroline does not allege Neil Gaiman used physical force, but that she felt it was coercive in light of her housing and family situation.

Speaker 16 She calls it sexual abuse.

Speaker 16 The UN defines sexual abuse as

Speaker 16 the actual or threatened physical intrusion of a sexual nature, whether by force or under unequal or coercive conditions.

Speaker 16 Caroline feels she doesn't have the upper hand in this bargain.

Speaker 22 And I was such a mess. I mean, I was such a mess.

Speaker 22 I mean, I just ended this

Speaker 22 17-year marriage, you know. It just felt nice to have affection.
I mean, I was terrified then because

Speaker 22 I had no money. My jobs have been taken away.
If I was a wreck.

Speaker 22 I was trying to like get better.

Speaker 22 And then this was happening.

Speaker 22 I like couldn't get better. And he can say it was consensual, but why would I do that? You know, it was because

Speaker 22 I was scared of losing my place. You know, it's all I had right then.

Speaker 16 Large parts of Caroline's story are unique to her, but there are echoes of both Kay's and Scarlett's story. Notably, that they both said he asked them to call him Master during sex.

Speaker 16 Wedged in the middle of the two, a few years before Scarlett, almost a decade after Case,

Speaker 16 Caroline recalls how...

Speaker 22 He wanted me to call him Master and

Speaker 22 he wanted me to be a bad girl who

Speaker 22 wanted him and

Speaker 22 couldn't get enough. And

Speaker 22 at first, I think I

Speaker 22 think when I thought maybe that it was genuine.

Speaker 22 I think I did text him that it felt nice or something.

Speaker 22 But, you know,

Speaker 22 the master stuff used to say that to me all the time. Call me your master.

Speaker 22 Tell me you want it. Tell me you want it.
He would kind of like choke me sometimes.

Speaker 16 Caroline says this goes on for almost two years. Sometimes she would say no.
Sometimes she wouldn't go to him. She recalls one incident when she fell asleep reading a story.

Speaker 22 When I woke up, Neil was in the bed and he put my hand on his cock.

Speaker 16 And Caroline says she had mentioned how it made her feel to Neil Gaiman.

Speaker 22 I did probably say a couple of times,

Speaker 22 this is making me feel really bad. And he was like, I don't want you to feel bad.
I don't know. It was like

Speaker 22 I was in such a place of fear of losing my house and losing in my and I had these three girls that you know I know I feel really guilty that I didn't pay more but

Speaker 22 I was just in fear

Speaker 16 Caroline says Neil Gaiman told her it was Amanda Palmer who wanted back the house she was in as well as the studio Caroline used for work She says that whenever she resisted his sexual advances, he'd raise the housing situation.

Speaker 22 He would just text me and go, Why don't you pop up to the cabin for a couple minutes?

Speaker 22 And a couple of times that, you know,

Speaker 22 I couldn't do it or whatever. He would say, you know, Amanda really wants the house back and she wants your studios.

Speaker 22 And then he would grab my hand and say, but you take care of me and I'll take care of you.

Speaker 16 Caroline understood this to be a clear reference to the trade where she'd be allowed to stay in the house with her three daughters as long as she provided Neil Gaiman with sex on demand.

Speaker 16 Neil Gaiman describes, in the words of his account, the sex for rent arrangement as an outrageous and false claim.

Speaker 16 His position is that their relationship was entirely consensual and that she instigated sex with him.

Speaker 16 Amanda Palmer didn't respond to multiple requests for comment by email, WhatsApp and Twitter or X.

Speaker 16 Then, just before COVID hits, Neil Gaiman leaves Woodstock.

Speaker 22 I remember being so so relieved that he wasn't around.

Speaker 22 Even though that's when I started getting like, you know, videos of him.

Speaker 16 Were those video calls or would he send you video messages?

Speaker 22 Well, he'd send me pictures and ask me for pictures and then he, um,

Speaker 22 and yeah, and video calls of like him in the shower, naked, jacking off, whatever, you know.

Speaker 16 Caroline's descriptions of Neil Gaiman's behavior on these calls matches descriptions of sexual calls he made to two other women we have spoken to, and who do not feature in this episode, because they spoke only to provide what they say was corroborating material.

Speaker 16 In the summer of 2021, still in the pandemic, Caroline decides to stop answering Neil Gaiman's calls because, she says, she just couldn't take them anymore.

Speaker 22 Then they just basically said, you know, you have to get out, you have by December.

Speaker 16 Neil Gaiman's position is that them messages and calls, what his account calls virtual sexual interaction, are evidence of a friendly consensual relationship.

Speaker 16 His account is that this interaction ended when in June 2021 he asked Caroline to leave the property by the end of the year.

Speaker 16 His position is that this was always a possibility. as she had been living there with her family rent-free for the preceding six years.

Speaker 16 This position doesn't acknowledge that Caroline worked for Neil Gaiman and Amanda Palmer all the while she lived on the property.

Speaker 16 It doesn't mention Neil Gaiman's attempts to initiate phone sex, which Caroline ignored, continued into August 2021 as his business manager pressed her to leave the property.

Speaker 16 At this point, the pandemic was still raging. And this is upstate New York.

Speaker 16 It's an area which experienced the highest house price growth of any US metropolitan region, as New York City residents moved in and bought up rural dwellings.

Speaker 16 There's no affordable housing available, and Caroline says she asks for more time.

Speaker 16 But it's only when she raises Neil Gaiman's alleged sexual abuse of her that his lawyer offers her a settlement, as long as she signs a non-disclosure agreement

Speaker 16 to begin with she is offered five thousand dollars the five acres she and her family were promised in a handshake deal were gone

Speaker 20 on the 9th of december 2021 caroline emails one of neil gaiman's lawyers saying she's tried To come up with an amount that I feel justified signing a release, then essence takes away my agency to speak freely about what I went through.

Speaker 20 300k is what I came up with, 150 for real estate issues and 150 for the sexual trade issue. Something that I'm trying to come to terms with.
Therapy alone is costing a fortune.

Speaker 16 Caroline, with money lent by a friend, entered a residential therapy center. She was prescribed antidepressants and remains on them.

Speaker 16 In the end, Neil Gaiman settles with Caroline for $275,000 and an NDA later that month.

Speaker 16 The agreement prohibits her from talking about Neil Gaiman with family members, friends, associates.

Speaker 16 Caroline had spoken to two of her closest friends about Neil Gaiman's alleged abuse of her, months before she signed the NDA in March 2021.

Speaker 16 After she signed it, she felt unable to talk to anyone about him, including to them.

Speaker 16 We spoke to those two friends who told us they couldn't understand why she'd become more reticent or why she appeared to still be suffering from his alleged abuse.

Speaker 16 Caroline says the NDA perpetuated it.

Speaker 16 The NDA stops Caroline from filing, reporting or prosecuting any action or proceeding in any court, governmental agency or before any tribunal whatsoever, wheresoever.

Speaker 16 But she says she wasn't told that New York's courts have voided NDAs that sought to frustrate investigations by government agencies.

Speaker 16 The NDA allows Caroline to make disclosures by a valid legal process.

Speaker 16 provided she first notifies Neil Gaiman 20 days in advance and gives him an adequate opportunity to intervene and with full and complete cooperation should he choose to oppose such disclosure.

Speaker 16 But she says she wasn't told that NDAs are void when they attempt to limit the reporting of criminal allegations by a witness or alleged victim in the US.

Speaker 16 Neil Gaiman's position is that his NDA with Caroline makes no reference to law enforcement and that there is nothing to report anyhow.

Speaker 16 His position is that the NDA used language that was deemed appropriate to both parties' experienced lawyers.

Speaker 16 Andrew Brettler, who has acted for Russell Brand, Danny Masterson and Prince Andrew, represented Neil Gaiman in this case. Caroline says she is looking for new legal representation.

Speaker 16 She wants to give her reasons for speaking out.

Speaker 20 Coming

Speaker 20 was pure instinct of a mother of three daughters the same age as Scarlett and Kay. I had no doubt I needed to support them as I would want anybody to support my daughters.

Speaker 20 I thought seriously about whether or not to use my name. When I understood that fear and shame were the feelings that kept rising, I realized this is part of the problem.

Speaker 20 It doesn't belong to me, to us.

Speaker 1 Hey friends, it's Nikayla from the podcast Side Hustle Pro.

Speaker 3 I'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens, and the Yoto Mini has been a total lifesaver.

Speaker 4 My kids are obsessed.

Speaker 6 Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen.

Speaker 10 Hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more, and no screens or ads.

Speaker 11 With hundreds of options for ages 0 to 12, it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again.

Speaker 5 Check it out at yotoplay.com.

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Speaker 15 Momentous works with the best brains in human science to create every formula, and every batch is made of pure ingredients, tested for safety, and does not contain fillers.

Speaker 15 So you get the best long-term results possible. Creatine isn't just for muscle gains, it's essential daily fuel for your brain, body, and long-term performance.

Speaker 15 Momentous Creopure Creatine is backed by leading performance experts like Dr. Andrew Huberman and Dr.
Stacey Sims.

Speaker 15 Sourced exclusively in Germany, Creature sets the gold standard for creatine, delivering the purest form, creatine monohydrate, that's rigorously washed and never cut with fillers.

Speaker 15 With over 2,000 five-star reviews, over 112,000 customers have seen the results firsthand. With Momentous, the fundamentals are done right.

Speaker 15 Right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first subscription order with promo code ACAST.

Speaker 15 Go to livemomentous.com and use promo code ACAST for up to 35% off your first subscription order. That's livemomentous.com promo code ACAST.

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Speaker 19 Caroline Woolner isn't the only person to reach out to us since our investigation was published, nor the only person willing to use her full name.

Speaker 19 While Caroline's story falls between Kay's and Scarlett's, questions over Neil Gaiman's behaviour stretch right back to before Scarlett was even born.

Speaker 18 Neil Gaiman has been a friend of mine for 40 years.

Speaker 19 Julia Hobsbaum is an award-winning British writer and public speaker. She's written widely on business and management and was honoured with an OBE for her work.

Speaker 19 And she's the daughter of Eric Hobsbaum, the Marxist historian. Julia recalls a moment back in 1986.

Speaker 18 I was at Penguin and I met him on the book party circuit.

Speaker 19 She was 22 years old and working as a book publicist in London.

Speaker 18 And he was as he has been ever since, you know, literary, soft-spoken, charming, gentlemanly, talks about subversion, kind of is edgy, wears a leather jacket,

Speaker 18 and yet he's anything but subversive in his demeanour. He's soft and brotherly and comfortable and

Speaker 18 incredibly beguiling and and literary. And so we used to hang out at parties and it was all absolutely fine.

Speaker 19 At the time, Neil Gaiman was married to his first wife and had a young child.

Speaker 19 His writing career was just about to take off with the imminent publication of his graphic novel, Violent Cases, the one that made his name.

Speaker 19 Neil Gaiman and Julia had been out and ended up back at Julia's studio flat in Chalk Farm, North London.

Speaker 18 I literally have no memory of how he came to be back there. What I'm totally certain about is that romance was not on the cards, not for me, and I did not believe it was on the cards for him.

Speaker 18 Well, I was standing up, I had this absolutely gorgeous flat,

Speaker 18 tiny, one room. It had a sort of L-shaped bar that led into the kitchen, and I was standing up by that wall into the sort of open planned bit.

Speaker 18 And one minute it seemed like he was telling me about Mary and his child. And the next minute he just sort of jumped on me and he just went from naught to ninety.

Speaker 18 I mean I remembered he made an aggressive, unwanted pass at me out of the blue that I've never experienced before or since. I had a sofa, it was very low and very squishy.

Speaker 18 He pushed me down onto that sofa and I remember thinking, that's enough, thanks very much, no.

Speaker 18 My body completely stiffened.

Speaker 19 She stops it and he leaves.

Speaker 19 Neil Gaiman's account is that he attempted a kiss. Upon realizing he had misread the situation and that Julia was not receptive, he stopped the attempt.

Speaker 19 His position is it was no more than a young man misreading a situation, adding that its inclusion, alongside criminal allegations raised in previous episodes in this podcast series, would mischaracterize it.

Speaker 16 Standards were different in the 1980s and Neil Gaiman's alleged behaviour might sound old-fashioned rather than something that crossed the line into legal wrongdoing.

Speaker 16 So I found it helpful to look up the definition of sexual assault in English criminal law.

Speaker 16 It is one person

Speaker 16 intentionally and sexually touching another without their consent.

Speaker 16 and that there is no reasonable belief by the alleged perpetrator in the other person's consent.

Speaker 16 Sexual assault doesn't necessarily involve violence, but it can cause severe emotional distress, which is why the police treat it as seriously as a violent attack, and which is why Julia remembers her story so many years later.

Speaker 1 Hey friends, it's Nikayla from the podcast Side Hustle Pro.

Speaker 3 I'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens, and the Yoto Mini has been a total lifesaver.

Speaker 4 My kids are obsessed.

Speaker 6 Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen.

Speaker 10 Hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more, and no screens or ads.

Speaker 11 With hundreds of options for ages 0 to 12, it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again.

Speaker 5 Check it out at yotoplay.com, Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y dot com.

Speaker 15 A lot of supplement brands chase trends, but if you're serious about your health, we know research-backed science is what actually moves the needle.

Speaker 15 Momentous works with the best brains in human science to create every formula, and every batch is made of pure ingredients, tested for safety, and does not contain fillers.

Speaker 15 So you get the best long-term results possible. Creatine isn't just for muscle gains, it's essential daily fuel for your brain, body, and long-term performance.

Speaker 15 Momentous Creopure Creatine is backed by leading performance experts like Dr. Andrew Huberman and Dr.
Stacey Sims.

Speaker 15 Sourced exclusively in Germany, Creopure sets the gold standard for creatine, delivering the purest form creatine monohydrate that's rigorously washed and never cut with fillers.

Speaker 15 With over 2,5-star reviews, over 112,000 customers have seen the results firsthand. With Momentous, the fundamentals are done right.

Speaker 15 Right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first subscription order with promo code ACAST.

Speaker 15 Go to livemomentous.com and use promo code ACAST for up to 35% off your first subscription order. That's livemomentous.com, promo code ACAST.

Speaker 18 I felt sufficiently uncomfortable and wronged

Speaker 18 and disappointed that I don't recall seeing him again for 20 years. I didn't want to see him.
Something broke.

Speaker 18 I'm embarrassed now that I didn't put two and two together and that I enjoyed his fame and his friendship 20 years later, that I compartmentalised it.

Speaker 19 His account is that they remained on friendly terms after that night, and this indicates that there's no ill feeling. They reconnect on Facebook.
She messages him as she recalls.

Speaker 19 And one night in December 2007, he invites her to a London hotel. He said, to eat, have a drink, or just hang out.

Speaker 18 And

Speaker 18 even though I was delighted to be reconnected with him, by now a star, I can tell you, Rachel, I absolutely made a decision I would not go in the evening.

Speaker 18 And I remember saying to him, I'll have coffee with you, and I did.

Speaker 19 They never speak of the incident again, but Julia always felt it was there, sitting between them.

Speaker 19 She now thinks that had she called him out on it at the time in 1986, she could have stopped what could be described as a pattern of behaviour in its tracks.

Speaker 19 She says she is plagued by the incident to this day and worries that she enabled his alleged misconduct to continue.

Speaker 18 What I mind about is the fact that I perpetuated the myth that he built around himself and his whole writing is about myths and fantasy.

Speaker 18 He built a myth around himself of being looking like a gothic bad boy who was actually incredibly well-spoken and kind and gentle and generous and blah blah blah.

Speaker 18 I do wish that I had not enabled the celebrity part of him without having said to him at least once,

Speaker 18 hey, come on, what happened back then?

Speaker 18 I let it lie, and now I really regret that.

Speaker 19 It's a thought.

Speaker 19 A few months after this alleged assault, Neil Gaiman's Violent Cases graphic novel was published, marking the start of a glittering literary career.

Speaker 19 His first collaboration with the illustrator David McKean, with whom he would go on to create his Sandman universe, a trajectory that could have been very different, that might not have led from Julia to Kay to Caroline to Scarlet

Speaker 19 and still more women.

Speaker 16 Since the release of our investigation, Neil Gaiman has not made a public statement either directly or through his representatives.

Speaker 16 A planned public appearance in Virginia on the 20th of July 2024 was cancelled.

Speaker 16 Bard College told us, He is not scheduled to teach at the college this year, as per his pre-existing schedule.

Speaker 16 The UN's refugee agency, where Neil Gaiman is a Goodwill ambassador, has described the allegations against him as very serious, adding, We are assessing the detailed reporting, but are not currently in a position to comment further.

Speaker 16 Perhaps it's not surprising that, for the moment, organisations that have had an affiliation with Neil Gaiman aren't rushing to judgement.

Speaker 16 The greyness we've talked about in our reporting has been a constant theme, and it's difficult to cut through.

Speaker 16 Not for the law, we've got to be clear about that, and not in the minds of most of the women who've taken the decision to speak to us.

Speaker 16 But it was there in Julia Hobsborn's case, for decades, until hearing from the other women we've talked to gave her a new frame for her own experience and made her wish she'd dealt with it differently.

Speaker 16 And as we've said, the same greyness still seems to weigh on the minds of juries and on prosecutors who have to decide whether to put a case before a jury in the first place.

Speaker 16 Non-disclosure agreements, NDAs, darken that grey somewhere close to black.

Speaker 16 Our belief throughout this podcast has been that if any of us if societies are ever to stand a chance of resolving the question of how consent is given or not given and how it's received or ignored within a consensual relationship, we have to give space to hear both sides.

Speaker 16 That led us to take the decision, which we understand was unpopular among some listeners, to include what we could of Neil Gaiman's account, as well as Scarlett's, Kay's, Caroline's and Julia's, in this series.

Speaker 16 But if Scarlett particularly and Caroline later had remained bound by their NDAs, there wouldn't have been a series.

Speaker 16 The NDAs they signed were meant, in part at least, to use the power of the law to enforce Neil Gaiman's argument that he doesn't have a case to answer simply by denying Scarlett and Caroline the chance to say that he does.

Speaker 16 NDAs are heavy and blunt instruments.

Speaker 16 Asking someone to sign one, knowing that it will close down a delicate and complex conversation, as Neil Gaiman did, is enough to suggest a lack of confidence that his arguments about consent, or simply his sexual behaviour towards vulnerable women, would survive public scrutiny.

Speaker 16 And certainly, agreeing to sign an NDA, in the circumstances in which Scarlett and Caroline found themselves is no sign at all that they changed their minds about what they believe happened.

Speaker 16 Their belief

Speaker 16 that they were abused.

Speaker 19 This series is reported by me, Rachel Johnson, and Paul Caruana-Galizia.

Speaker 19 This episode is produced by Matt Russell and Katie Gunning.

Speaker 19 Sound design and original music is by Tom Kinsella.

Speaker 19 Additional reporting is by Jess Swinburne. Artwork is by John Hill.
The series editor is Matt Russell. The editor is Jasper Corbett.

Speaker 19 Tortoise.

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